These kiddie pagents are immoral. There I’ve said it. If I could write the law, I would certainly make them illegal certainly for anyone under the age of 16, but since I don’t and it’s legal, go ahead and spend that $$$$$ not on your daughter’s college fund, tutoring, etc.
I don’t approve of any serious competition for children under about age ten, and nothing at all under eight. Kids need unstructured play before they are regimented into teams and rigid rules. Child beauty pagents are awful. Little girls should not be made up miniature women with styled hair and makeup.
Thank you andy!
Our girls deserve better! There is a huge difference between spending time pursuing a sport or interest, and having a young girl’s physical appearance altered to meet a limiting stereotype.
Painting young girls up like that is deeply disturbing and if you can’t see what the problem is, I’m concerned about you. I would have no problem with a child beauty pageant if it celebrated the true beauty of a child. Children are beautiful the way they are. Let them look and act like children.
Eleanor Rigby – hear hear!! can anyone forget the pictures of JBR with more war paint on her than … well … than most 16 year olds wear!! and the highlights, fake tan, etc … criminey, you want to talk about the sexualization of kids, let’s start with the “pagaent culture” …. eesh.
And, Shaunti, if you don’t understand the difference between cheerleading (very athletic, where you are actually judged on your abilities) and “pagaents” where you’re judged on your appearance, the more plastic, the better, then there’s just no hope for you.
I’m with USinUK. There’s a **big** difference between a competition based on skills/abilities and one that is based on how one looks and dresses.
What concerns me is that these pageant moms seem to always say “but she loooooves doing pageants”. Excuse me, but I’m forced to wonder if the child loves the *pageant* or just the attention and approval they get from their parent when they do well. If the child is only doing pageants because they’re afraid their parent won’t love them as much if they don’t, I certainly think that it *might* border on EMOTIONAL abuse. Maybe not what we commonly consider child abuse, but a pretty ugly situation for the kid anyway.
But my monster cat is begging to be a runway model. I don’t want to limit his life, but I don’t want him to be exposed to the seedy underworld of cat sex and cat nip.
IMO: If your daughter is naturally beautiful, it’s best to focus on developing her other qualities. If she did not emerge so naturally beautiful, the same applies. Leave the shallow sh– for the men with no depth to obsess over. It’s not like that will ever change, but I’m certainly not going sacrifice the healthy development or well-being of a child to the unnatural expectations of the shallow minded.
TOJ – great. now I have an image of your cat that’s somewhere between a lynx and Kate Moss (complete with snorting lines of cat nip in hip London bars)
I don’t know what is up with him. He met a girl cat from down the street and now I’m getting post cards from Milan, London, New York. Paris. He came by the other day and I’m pretty sure he was using. The smell of catnip was all over his luggage.
Sob, snort. I don’t know what to do. This may be in his genes, but he didn’t get it from me!!!!
TOJ – “Sob, snort. I don’t know what to do. This may be in his genes, but he didn’t get it from me!!!!”
oooo … I think I see a whole new season of “Intervention”!! “Monster cat, we’re worried about you.” “It’s not a problem – I can kick the nip anytime I want”
The old woman that owns the house I want to buy is convinced that it is still 2006. She just backed out of the deal. I found out yesterday that the heating part of the heating and air was about to fail. I told her but didn’t renegotiate, but now she is backing out. She said that she really needs more money for it. Well good luck with that, Granny. I’m the only offer she has gotten in the 9 months it’s been on the block.
i like the location, but i could go to auctions and buy 5 houses like this one for what I am paying. The deal is falling apart. I may be living in a friend’s spare room if I don’t find something, fast. Is anything simple?
Just what the world needs… even more fake sh*t. But I suppose pageant life is good for keeping relentlessly uncool losers and their hideous, creepy, perverted loser-parents, all off to one side. Together. They’ll be easier for the gulag round-up that way.
TOJ – “The deal is falling apart. I may be living in a friend’s spare room if I don’t find something, fast. Is anything simple?”
very few things worth having are simple – BUT, you’ll find the place you’re supposed to be – in a market like this one, you’ll find your perfect house and it’ll be SO much more affordable than it would have been 3 years ago!!
“There’s a big difference between a competition based on skills/abilities and one based on how one looks and dresses”.
I agree with all of you that “beauty pageants” are, at the minimum, borderline strange, especially for children. At the same time, what say all of you regarding the “beauty pageant of life”??? There is no doubt in my mind that attractive women (and men) have far more opportunities presented to them, both professionally and most definitely romantically. I believe that there is likely more pressure on women to appear beautiful, hence the multi-billion dollar cosmetics industry.
One of the things I love about my GF is that she doesn’t wear any makeup at all.
One last plea to my blog buddies: Buy some stocks while they are still so undervalued. I’m becoming more and more convinced that the market has hit bottom and will only go up from here, despite every effort from Obama and the Democrats to permanently ruin our economy.
Question for the Libs: Are all of you still so high on Obama and the Democratic leadership?? After less than two months, I think Obama is definitely in the running for “Worst President Ever”. I’m also getting more than a little sick of the #1 hypocrite of all time, Nancy Pelosi. She made a big point of castigating the various company executives for flying around in private jets while she does the same thing, all on my dime.
didn’t you just start a new gig? how’s it treating you??
“At the same time, what say all of you regarding the “beauty pageant of life”???”
meh. natural selection, pure and simple – I have no problem with that. I just find the whole monetizing of it via beauty pagaents … well … icky where children are concerned. I mean – wigs for babies? false teeth for kids who have gaps where they’ve lost their baby teeth? hair dye, fake tan, GOBS of makeup … good grief. talk about misplaced parental priorities.
“despite every effort from Obama and the Democrats to permanently ruin our economy”
yeah. well, we’re doing what we can…. mwaaaaahahahahaha!!! next stop – the American League, with their Designated Hitters!!! And, then – Pumpkin Pie! oh, yeah, we’re taking out the American way of life, one icon at a time.
srsly, B-dog. get a grip.
“Are all of you still so high on Obama and the Democratic leadership??”
I’ll take it ALL. DAY. LONG over what we suffered through 2001-2007/9. All. Day. Long. and twice on Sunday.
Bruno – After less than two months, I think Obama is definitely in the running for “Worst President Ever”.”
after less than two months you’re ready to label him a failure?! Frankly, I’m astonished at the rush to judgement. It seems to me that the problems facing this country took years and years to construct, yet for some reason, you think Obama could just walk into office, wave his hand, and fix everything?! Seriously? Wow. You guys really do believe your own hype, don’t you!? Just remember, it wasn’t the left that called him ‘messiah’…
Luckily, I think the rest of the country has a bit more pragmatism (not to mention patience) than you. Nate Silver says that polls are showing Obama having maybe 12-18 months until people start evaluating his performance. I’m certainly willing to give him at least six before condemning him.
The new job is great, USinUK, at least so far. With the economy so tight, I’m fortunate to have a job at all, I guess. The owner is a cool guy, and a DeadHead to boot, so I think we’ll get along fine. In the office which I’m running, there is no internet access, so I will only be able to blog occasionally on my day off.
Per today’s topic, again, I agree with you, Mara, and the rest of the gang that child beauty pageants are bizzare, especially considering the extremes that the parents put their kids through, and all for what?? A trophy?? I saw on a TV show once that there are “pageant consultants” that parents pay thousands of dollars to for advice on hair styles, makeup, etc. Unreal.
At the same time, I brought up the fact that beauty does matter in the “real world” simply to put things in perspective. Whether directly or indirectly, I think every kid learns at an early age that appearance is paramount in terms of social standing. As crude as child beauty pageants are, they expose a truth that kids learn on their own anyway.
Because I needed braces, I was always extremely self-conscious about my appearance as a kid, and became very shy as a result. It wasn’t until my 20s that I could afford to buy the braces myself, so my social development was delayed somewhat.
Oh, outraged ones: I make no secret that I’m no fan of Pelosi because she was Bush’s bestest buddy EVER – an enabler, not a voice of the people. However, the jet business is nonsense. Please go to Snopes dot com and enter “Pelosi Jet” for the breakdown on that sitch. (I’d post excerpts, but Snopes does not allow copy & paste.) The Speaker’s special flight arrangements are a post 9/11 security measure (for those in line for the Presidency in case of catastrophe) that Dennis Hastert also utilized. The non-stop request, also security-related, is due to the fact that her district is in CA, and stopping to re-fuel adds risk. This was not her decision. I wish she’d resign, too, but I’ll keep my reasons real.
Obama hasn’t even had two months in office. If you’re going to sling the WPE label around, you should at least wait until you have some actual historical facts on which to base it if you want anyone to take you seriously. Two months isn’t long enough to really know the person you’re SLEEPING with, let alone someone who’s way too busy to take your whiny phone calls. (Unless of course you have a crystal ball, read minds, and already know everything. In which case, please continue yammering; we can’t friggin wait to be enlightened.)
Luckily, I think the rest of the country has a bit more pragmatism (not to mention patience) than you. Nate Silver says that polls are showing Obama having maybe 12-18 months until people start evaluating his performance. I’m certainly willing to give him at least six before condemning him.
PLUS, you forget that Congressional approval is at a 4-year high: http:// http://www.gallup.com/poll/ 116530/Approval-Congress-Hits-Four-Year-High-Fueled-Dems.aspx
and Obama is also doing better than Baby Bush did around the same time:
http:// edition.cnn.com/2009/ POLITICS/03/10/obama.ratings/
I’m just giving some of you here a taste of your own medicine, that’s all, Mara. Not one of you ever gave GWB a chance, as reflected by your own quotes and comments (”We all knew he was an idiot going into office…”) I’m willing to give Obama a few more months before labeling him the WPE. After all, it will take a monumental effort on his part to surpass the disastrous presidency of Jimmy Carter.
Seriously, though, the hypocrisy coming from the Left right now is more than nauseating. Here on W2W, all of you severely criticized Bush for the deficit spending the past 8 years, and rightly so. Then, in less than one month, YOUR guy eclipsed all of the deficit spending from the last 200+ years. It will take the rest of our lifetimes, and maybe those of our children and grandchildren to finish paying for all of the nonsense pork barrel projects masquerading as “stimulus spending”.
As for the “messiah” charge, can any of you deny the coordinated effort by the press to present Obama in the best possible light while doing all they could to make McCain look as bad as possible??? Several major news agencies have already admitted as much.
Reality check: McCain made himself look bad. Not all of us get our “news” from interpreter pundits. Some of us WATCH and LISTEN for ourselves, and make our own decisions. Why is some people can’t be happy unless everyone around them is miserable? So sorry to disappoint.
Yes, things look BAD, don’t they? We’ve been getting used to that for years. Some of us are hoping that the new Captain might be able to turn the ship around before it sails off the edge of the planet. Would you have us throw the new Captain overboard before he has a chance to do that? How would THAT be smart?
Bruno, yes looks DO affect how people treat you…but pageants present a skewed vision of what ‘beauty’ is. I was a MESS when I was a kid. A real tree-climbin’, knee-scraping, dirt-playin’, engine tinkerin’ tom-boy. I was not an “attractive” child. But I wasn’t tarted up and paraded around like a 25-year-old so I wasn’t particularly aware of it. Eventually it became clear to me that there would always be girls prettier than I and girls who weren’t as fortunate. But that wasn’t something I was confronted with until my self-image was already pretty well formed. I don’t think that appearance should be something a four-five-six-year-old child should have to stress out about.
anyway, all y’all have a great weekend ’cause I’m outtie for now.
“You think Obama could just walk into office, wave his hand, and fix everything?”
Of course not, Mara. Because frankly, no one could do that, nor should they even try. It’s not the place of the government in a free-market system to “fix” anything. Markets can only correct themselves, and all of this government interference will do nothing but prolong the problems–e.g the oversupply of houses on the market. No one wants to see the value of their home go down, but that’s what happens when supply exceeds demand. And all of the “price-fixing” schemes in the world can’t change that.
I’m running short of time, but will tryi to present a more detailed view of why I think the approach takes by Obama, Pelosi, et.al. is the worst possible “solution” to our current economic problems.
Anyone else see the Cramer-on-Stewart interview last night? The guy’s only excuse was that he was “lied to” by CEOs, but then every other sentence was an admission of guilt. “We could have done better. We should do better. I know. How about if I start doing better?” Talk about media enablers! He was the champion of “get rich quick schemes are better than hard work!” What a turd, but at least he’s not trying to defend it anymore.
LOL! “I’m just giving some of you here a taste of your own medicine, that’s all, Mara. Not one of you ever gave GWB a chance…
LIES! Absolute LIES! George Dubya was viewed as pretty average before 9/11. He had up to 90% approval between 9/11 and the run-up to the Iraq War. You are welcome to take a look back, but I’m confident that the ‘Worst. President. EVER.’ meme didn’t come into play until AFTER he took his eyes off Bin Laden and instead, pushed us into the Iraq War.
Yes, by the end of his first term his image as a f*ck-up was well established and his legacy tarnished by incompetence and torture. But he earned the judgement, it wasn’t arbitrarily bestowed.
Hi all, sorry I haven’t posted lately but the major f—up of the economy means I work thrice as hard as I did before (I’m in the bankruptcy industry)
**If a child isn’t learning the right lessons and isn’t handling it well, then the parent would make a different decision. But make it based on fact, not fear**
What a novel idea Shaunti. I just wish the former administration would have heeded this advice….
I have a coworker whose daughter lost her house because she couldn’t afford the rent, and she did moved back home. Of course that precious granddaughter is in at least a half dozen pagents every year and there’s alway $$$ for those entrance fees and at least 2 dresses/costumes for each one. She’s so proud!!!!!!!!!!
Oh yea. My newest fun hobby is to set my GPS voice to Japanese. It says the street names so it is hysterical hearing the mix. I am also learning a little Japanese.
“He had up to 90% approval between 9/11 and the run-up to the Iraq War”.
If you reread my post, Mara, I said that none of you **here** ever gave Bush a chance from the git-go based upon your blog comments. I made no comment about Bush’s general approval ratings.
“A real tree-climbin’, knee-scraping, dirt-playin’, engine tinkerin’ tom-boy”
What, are you trying to make me even hotter for you than I already am????
I won’t be back for at least a week, so here’s a partial list of my concerns about the Obama Administration:
(1) Obama campaigned on eliminating wasteful government spending, then turned around and put the country deeper in debt in less than 60 days than Bush did in eight full years.
(2) Democrats complained that Bush used public fear as a tactic to push through his war agenda, then Obama turned around and did the same thing to push through his massive spending programs.
(3) Obama and the Democrats mocked McCain’s statement that we may be in Iraq for the next hundred years, but are now stating that we will keep an occupying force there indefinitely.
(4) Obama made a lot of political hay regarding the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, promising to immediately close the base and either try or release all the prisoners. Now that he’s in charge, it appears that he is going to continue the Bush policies there, other than “abandoning one of President George W. Bush’s key phrases in the war on terrorism: enemy combatant” according to an AP article released today.
(5) Democrats have made a lot of noise about spying on citizens without a search warrant, then Attorney General Eric Holder came out in solid suport of the FISA Amendments Act during his confirmation hearings, which coincidentally Obama voted for in July, 2008.
(6) Obama campaigned solidly against using torture as a tool to combat terrorism, and promised he would clean house and restore the good name of the US. Recently, however, “Representatives of the Obama administration appeared to insist that the lawsuit by five people against Boeing subsidiary Jeppesen Dataplan — which flew them on behalf of the United States Government to third-party nations to be tortured — must be withdrawn, and that no evidence whatsoever in the case could be considered. Why? Because the Obama administration says talking about the torture and the American role in it could damage national security by harming U.S. relations with other countries: “proceeding with this case would jeopardize national security and foreign relations.”
(7) Bush was roundly criticized for his “faith-based initiative” programs in which federal dollars are being given to groups
which discriminate based on religious affiliation. Obama promised that he would institute safeguards to ensure that the separation of church and state are not violated. But, “Obama has not kept that promise. He has expanded the government establishment of religion without placing any safeguards against that expanded theocratic power at all”
in establishing his Advisory Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships, which consists almost completely of religious leaders.
(8) Much ado was made about “closed door meetings” by Dick Cheney in formulating a National Energy Policy. Barely a month into the new administration, Joe Biden turned around and did the same thing by meeting with AFL-CIO leadership in private in order to formulate a new policy toward the establishment of unions in the work place.
(9) Over and over again, Obama criticized Bush for creating a political climate based on divisiveness, then stood by without comment when his chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, insulted all conservatives by claiming that Rush Limbaugh, a paid entertainer, “is the voice and the intellectual force and energy behind the Republican Party”. Personally, I doubt that Emanuel made those comments without the approval of Obama. Way to bring everyone together.
So, the next time any of you here try to lecture me that I’m “not giving Obama a fair chance”, remember what you told me the past 2 + years: Dissent is good.
Well,well, we have another kunckle dragging political hack, who we all thought had a bit of scientific sense in that he is a Vet, go against the life saving stem cell issue. Just add another idiology idiot to the big circus called Georgia, one of the most backward states in the union! Uh, oh yes, I AM a christian!!!
Even the relatively socially acceptable drug alcohol kills hundreds of thousands yearly. While moderate alcohol consumption is generally not harmful, excess drinking can lead to liver, mouth, and throat cancer, cirrhosis, hep c, heart disease, and an endless number of other diseases, not to mention the deadly menace drunk drivers pose to everybody.
Please stop perpetuating lies and myths about the cannabis plant. THC is one of the safest pharmacologically active/psychoactive substances in the known world. It is FAR less addictive than even caffeine, and is for all practical purposes impossible to ingest through eating or smoking to a quantity that could cause death. No one will die from a THC overdose, but an untold number of people this year alone will die from eating too many doughnuts, crossing the street without looking, not having health insurance, and so forth.
How do you compare sex between consenting adults and grown up beauty pageants for kids. Thank God I will never be able to understand the mentality of “Conservatives”.
Ahh Bruno, go ahead and whine for the next 8 years. Its actually kinda funny right now watching you right-wingers scowl and grimace. More fun for the rest of us. The GOP is going the way of the Whig party you’re so outta touch. Rush IS your leader and you know it, you absolutely know it and its hilarious! LMAO
Not “one of you” bruno? And you chastise me for speaking for everyone!
As for dissent, calling him possibly the worst prez yet is hardly “dissent.” And when any of us did voice dissent, we were called anti-american.
With us or againstus is what we heard for 8 years. I AM glad we are done with that rudimentary logic. At least we have a leader that is honest from the get-go. If Bush were in office, he would threaten all that opposed and remind us that HE is THE decider.
Big difference that you are purposely ignoring out of grudge or indoctrinated past.
Anyhoo – pointless discussion: if you wanted to talk and reason you would not be decidedly certain. Bummer….I thought more of you for a while (remember 3 weeks where you saw how polarizing the conservatives were?).
ahem…despite Bruno’s assertion to the contrary, he has no idea what my opinions were prior to 9/11 because I was not a member of this forum at that time. He may be correct about the opinions expressed at that time, but there are very, very few of the old guard still posting so it’s not exactly honest to say “none of you **here** ever gave Bush a chance from the git-go based upon your blog comments”.
Okay, on to other things. I had started out rebutting Bruno’s points item by item then realized that if he wasn’t going to be here for the next couple weeks, it was just an act of futility. So all I’m going to say is that two months into an administration is waaaay too early to allege broken campaign promises simply because Obama hasn’t gotten around to doing everything he’s promised. He MAY be as bad as he’s being portrayed by the rightwing media, or he may not be. I suggest it is simply too soon to make such judgements.
Dissent is good and should be welcome, but…dissent does not mean you get to make up your own version of the facts. Take Biden’s “secret” meeting with the AFL-CIO for example. Exactly how secret could it have been when the WH post the transcript of his speech on line and reporters are allowed into the executive council meeting for the first time in history?! – mediamatters.org/items/200903060011
Another example? There are many conservatives are NOT part of the Republican party how is it an insult to all conservatives to say that Limbaugh speaks for the Republicans? I could see how all REPUBLICANS might find it insulting, but “all conservatives”? Maybe not so much.
“Kiddie beauty pageants” are indeed a “no-brainer” – supported only by the brainless. Nice try, Shaunti, equating cheerleading with disgusting over-sexualized displays of teeny tots – even you don’t sound convinced. OK, some clarification for morons, stating the obvious: If you dress your cheerleading toddler like a hooker and she does dance routines that look like they were crafted for the stage of the Cheetah Lounge, then yes, cheerleading can be considered equally bad. All moms of girls have to be vigilant against exploitation of their daughters; where tot pageants go so horribly off the moral rails is the deliberate molding of very young children to adult sexual tastes. For what POSSIBLE purpose would a so-called “conservative” who purports to be a “woman of faith” defend them? Well, to me, this is one of those, “If the liberal’s against it, it must deserve my support.” Go take a shower Shaunti, have a cup of tea, and see if you can regain your common sense.
I am sure there are women out there for whom being in a pagent made THE difference in their lives. I don’t personally know any of them. Who I do know are women who peaked and it’s been downhill ever since
Yes, by the end of his first term his image as a f*ck-up was well established
That was well established by the main stream media and bought hook line and sinker and the liberal left and unfortunately the less informed of the general population. This is the same media that failed to mention during a two year campaign for the white house that the congress has been under the rule of Pelosi and Reid ever since the economy started falling apart.
Bruno
Excellent points. It’s like returning to the days of Clinton. Hypocrisy is the norm and all those promises that we made during the campaign? Well, we ARE Democrats and they WERE campaign promises. If the American People were dumb enough to believe us, then they deserve us.
The Zombie shoot was a blast. I ended up shooting and using my small jib arm and my new HD camera. They got to East Atlanta village at 5:30 AM and by the time the shoot started at about 10AM, most of the Zombies had been slamming vodka and beer. There were a few serious actors but most of the zombies (about 40 showed up) were just completely falling down hammered by the time we started rolling. This made them GREAT zombies. Stumbling and falling down is what zombies do so this worked out great.
Everybody was nice except for a couple of drunk chicks who hated it when the director would yell “Quiet on the set!” which would inspire them to help out by yelling at everybody. Other than that, it was a lot of fun for everybody and we got great footage. I shot a lot of behind the scene stuff. I am thinking about posting a U-Tube piece about the making of a Zombie film. I have some really funny stuff. If I do it, I’ll post a link.
I guess the worst thing for the two writers of commentary is their column is cut in half and few if any will ever read the total are what they wrote. I am ok with the half a commentary.
Per subject
I was in Fargo ND for some reason back when and the hotel I was at was having the Little Miss ND pageant and it was by far the creepiest event I had ever been on the sidelines to view. Hundreds of little girls no older than six all in make up and fancy dresses with abundant petticoats. What disturbed me most were the moms–decked out in spangly dresses identical dress with their kids–(O never get into an elevator with 10 moms & daughters and perfumed makeup and perfumes and perfumed hair–gag!) There was even the Littlest Miss Pageant being one where girls who had scarcely learned to walk were dolled up and pretending pageant.
Now this was before J.B.Ramsey–(Around 74 before most of you were born) and before pedophile lists–but there were a lot of men at this shindig. It was obvious they were not fathers or judges.
To make my overlong story short–I did not see a girl crying, upset, complaining about being there (unlike me who felt I had entered the Twilight Zone). The children all seemed happy and played with each other–had a good time with lots of treats and kid party stuff.
Kiddie pageants are nothing more than child prostitution. What parent in their right mind dresses their 4 year old like a 25 year old and parades her around in front of complete and total strangers?
woowoo!!! sounds like the shoot was a blast – did your nephew/niece-in-law make it, or were you the only one from your tribe looking for brains??? what a great way to spend a Saturday morning (although, shots that early??? eeeeee … not since I was in my 20s … I’d need a nap by the time they would be ready to shoot!)
do you know the name of the movie, so I can tell the Mister and we can keep an eye out for it?
otherwise, how was the weekend? it was GORGEOUS here!! all the daffs are out, I’m seeing buds on my hydrangea, I was able to go out at lunch today without a jacket … honey. I’ve got the fever. and I’m not talking for the flavor of a Pringles.
3 more days and I’m DC BOUND, BABBEEE!!! then, Atlanta. I checked accuweather.com yesterday and it looks like the weather is going to be PERFECT the week I’m there. thanks to you and all the W2Wers for making that possible (I know you guys pulled strings – and I appreciate it)
I was conned into video taping a pageant when I first moved here. Atlanta was the Mecca of kiddie pageants. It was creepy. And you are right about the fumes from the scented everything. It was at the Hyatt, downtown and there didn’t even need to be a person in the elevator. They all smelled like a hundred different chemicals, all created to smell good, but the mix would gag a dead man. I can’t imagine what those chemicals do to a little girl’s skin and lungs.
The Mom’s were basically playing with dolls. And while some of the mom’s appeared to be ex-pageant contestants, most would have never been in a beauty pageant. Talk about living vicariously.
The problem i have with calling this child abuse is this: I was a news videographer: I’ve seen real child abuse. I’ve seen eyes black, broken bones, death, car wrecks where the kid was standing in the front seat when thir Mom hit a telephone pole. The depths of evil that is involved when a person abuses a child is sometimes beyond understanding.
That’s child abuse. Calling pageants child abuse diminishes what it really is. I have no problem with children competing. We compete our entire lives. It is how we can find our calling. But because of the massive money that is sometimes riding on these pageants, that is just too much pressure on the kids. They take too much time and they teach the wrong things, but child abuse? Will we ever stop changing definitions of words to match our needs?
Obama appointed as chief of staff: Rahm Emanuel, one of the most divisive and hard core political hatchet men in the history of the planet. As we see Obama drop the ball over and over and we watch him being manipulated by a power hungry leftest Congress as he signs away our grandchildren’s inheritance (So far, $19,000/American household, and he hasn’t been in office for 100 days, yet.), watch for more EXTREMELY polarizing campaigns to be launched by the rebirth of Clinton’s old hatchet men.
When the fascists take over, they will first manipulate the capitalist system, diverting power from the people to the government, they will control the majority of the media and they will use their unlimited power to silence their opposition.
Please explain what part of that last sentence isn’t happening right now.
I didn’t show up until almost 9. I was shooting so I didn’t need to be made up.
The film was a short, I think it will appear in the Atlanta Film Festival, but I don’t know for sure. I think a short about making the short would be a better flick. I’m just slammed right now.
Weather was dreary and misty, perfect zombie weather.
TOJ, there are many forms of child abuse. I’m with you in that it’s not physical (that doesn’t look right, did I spell that right?)abuse but I could see emotional or mental…depending on how it’s handled. Of course, the parents should be run over with a mack truck but ignorance is bliss and for some of the girls this is just a chance to play elaborate dress up and for others (again depending on how the parents behave)it’s like being in a pressure cooker and that definitely qualifies as abuse.
“Obama appointed as chief of staff: Rahm Emanuel, one of the most divisive and hard core political hatchet men in the history of the planet”
yep. and then he’s turned around and had numerous meetings with the GOP, reached out to the GOP, APPOINTED members of the GOP to his cabinet … only to have his hand bitten off by the GOP. so, you can complain about Rahm all you want, but your guys are the ones who are pooping in the punch bowl, not the Administration.
“When the fascists take over, they will first manipulate the capitalist system, diverting power from the people to the government, they will control the majority of the media and they will use their unlimited power to silence their opposition. Please explain what part of that last sentence isn’t happening right now.”
manipulate the capitalist system? really? please, define – I want to hear what YOU consider “manipulation”.
as far as “controlling the media” – all I can think is that you jsut don’t watch much other than FOX. you have Dick Cheney on CNN saying that Obama is going to lead us into another attack, you have Ari Fleisher STILL peddling the Saddam-9/11 link on MSNBC … this is “control”???
As we see Obama drop the ball over and over and we watch him being manipulated by a power hungry leftest Congress as he signs away our grandchildren’s inheritance…
perhaps this is how it’s viewed from the right because YOUR guy distorted presidential powers so much. Legislation is SUPPOSED to come from the Legislature and not the Executive. Actually, the President is supposed to set the broad agenda, Congress writes the legislation (hence, the ‘legislative branch’), and then the President either signs it or vetos it.
He’s not being ‘manipulated’, he’s abiding by the Constitutional limits of his power.
Now I would like to say I was impressed with all of the ladies last week in responding to my questions on self-defense,etc. I didn’t get to read all the answers because of work.
As for governor,Mark Sanford, he is getting blasted by the editorial board of The State, which is the largest newspaper in Columbia, every other day. Anyway I won’t post much on this topic because I no longer have a little, little girl.
I understand what you are saying but, you have to be careful not to let the cultural setting sway your perspective. This is mostly middle America, almost cowboy mentality. We have been taught that this is all bad, but being a beauty queen in Omaha is not considered a bad thing. These little girls have stars in their eyes and maybe that is wrong, but their little brothers may be looking at being a fighter pilot or a race car driver, but why isn’t that considered wrong?
I consider the pressure the abusive part, but that’s just because of what is at stake. The sad thing is that they are all given stupid little cheap trophies, so most of the younger ones have no idea that they were voted most likely to become slightly less hideous.
The problem is when they stop playing dress up and you have these nine year olds. dressed up like hookers who are dead serious about winning the BIG trophy. My kids competed a bunch and they lost a bunch, but it told them what they were good at. They were certainly not in any beauty pageants, but they were deeply involved in music and the arts and my little girls took marshall arts.
Competition is not bad. Putting all that crap on those little giirl’s hair. That’s bad.
I’ve seen some of the recent TV shows about kiddie beauty pageants. Whether they are abusive or not depends on the parent. I saw a determined parent whose 2-year-old was whiny and uncooperative back state and adorable on-stage. On-stage lasted about a minute and back stage, well. Another parent, whose child did not win, angrily said her child would never compete again and she was going to have to go home and tell her child that the judges thought she wasn’t pretty. Aside from the obvious – that isn’t what the judges thought – she apparently will teach her daughter that if she doesn’t win, the decision wasn’t fair, the cards are against her, etc. When dad asked the child if she had fun, the girl readily said “yes.” Go figure. Some little princesses apparently love being made up and somehow equate their participation to Hannah Montana or High School Musical, but many times the “make up” is so overdone as to be grotesque, a la Jon Benet Ramsey. If parents want to spend thousands on entry fees, costumes, hairdressers and coaches, fine, it’s their money. But aren’t they teaching them that beauty is what matters above all, and money spent to be more beautiful is fine, even at some sacrifice? How is it different from a child who wants to be a fighter pilot? Well, one takes a learned skill and hard work; one takes money, just money, and values what? Most of these families have other children. How is this a good lesson for them? Okay, it’s a competition, but what is it judging? No, I think they are awful for the kids and the mothers tend to be, with a rare exception, Momzillas, regardless of what they may think.
Who cares that they had meetings. The GOP leaders were basically called on the rug to be told “”the way it was going to be”. There’s two sides to every story. “The Punch Bowl” is already poop. How can anyone rationalize this much money being spent at one time on projects that won’t even be enacted for years?
If you don’t think this is a play for power, take a look at what is happening to AIG. “The People” now have a say in how that company does business. It gives a whole new meaning to the term “Public Company”. The power shift where our elected representatives have a say in who gets a bonus with an insurance company, and you don’t think this is the biggest power grab in the history of the world?
This kind of money and power has never changed hands before. The complete idiots that we have made fun of for years that run our Congress have taken power that they will never give up. Please!!!! For the love of God. Pay attention to what is happening. $19,000 per American household!!!! That’s how much we will pay for the spending during THE FIRST 60 DAYS!!!!!!! They are tallking about another “stimulas package”.
Please consider for a minute. Just think back in time and try to remember when the world’s most powerful government was taken over by power hungry people who insisted on controlling everything, insisted on changing laws and policies where they controlled all the finances.
When has that ever turned out for the good?
As far as the medis, give me a break.
ABC The most powerful Political voice on the network was Bill Clinton’s “Boy” while he was in the White house.
CBS The most trusted anchor and the most powerful producer lose their jobs because they keep insisting that just because a source wasn’t double verified, that it didn’t mean that it wasn’t true. And of course it all happened to center around a Republican President. I’m amazed that the network took action.
NBC Where do I start? SNL does such a nasty and hard hitting mockery of the Republican Vice Presidential candidate, that she wins several awards for quotes attributed to Palin, which she never said. GE, the parent company will make billions from the new stimulas biil.
CNN The founder, Ted Turner. Really enough said, but as I woke up this morning, I heard that a former CNN reporter has just been made the Marxist leader of a South American Country.
I honestly have stopped watching TV. It has become such a complete Gobbels syle info-fascist machine that I can’t watch it.
I was hoping that the shift of power would call off the dogs, but did you see what was just done with the Rush Limbaugh effort on behalf of the media? When before has Rush Limbaugh gotten so much attention?
I took civics class, but thanks. I know that he is a puppet. The course was set in 2007, now they (The Congress) just have smooth sailing.
You didn’t address any issues about the shift of power and the spending of more money at one time than anytime in the history of the world. You do understand that power shift is from the people to the government, don’t you?
TOJ, seriously… don’t you get tired of that same old whine? CNN gave Glen Beck his own show in Prime Time. Lou Dobbs can’t go five minutes without turning apoplectic on the issue of illegal immigration. Nancy Grace is ready to fry everyone accused of anything. Larry King might be a “liberal” in your eyes, but he gives people of all backgrounds and affiliations a chance to be heard in their own words. Clark Howard ROCKS on CNN now!
Reality check: SNL makes fun of everybody. That people tuned in to the totally NOT funny show to watch the Palin parody says more about our shock at finding her on the ticket than any hidden agenda. The material wrote itself. MSNBC not only hosts uber-libs Olbermann and Maddow, but also Joe Scarborough, former REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN (who never wants to talk about the young woman who DIED IN HIS OFFICE under mysterious circumstances, swept under the rug by a medial examiner brought in from another jurisdiction by Gov. Jeb.) He gives ZERO news in his morning show — only boatloads of analysis and shouting. Chris Matthews couldn’t be a bigger WH-O-RE if he did the broadcast in fishnets and stilettos. The network libs you ramble on about are STILL giving Cheney a chance to put his face on the tube and yammer that it’s not Bush’s fault, while failing as always to ask any REAL questions. And speaking of REAL questions, “WHAT DO YOU READ?” is NOT a “Gotcha” question when asked of a vice presidential candidate. That the ditz could not answer is not a reflection on Couric! Puh-leeeeze. The “Goebbels style” label doesn’t apply. At worst, they’re sorry wh-o-res, and at best, they’re not really trying to be journalists.
To answer your RL question, AS A MOMMY, Limbaugh got my attention when he went on his short-lived television show and called Chelsea Clinton “The White House Dog.” I can’t imagine that you, a proud papa to a girl child, weren’t then and aren’t now still DISGUSTED at a grown man who’d humiliate ANY 13-year-old girl for being in her awkward stage. The man has no credibility whatsoever except for what the Republitard faithful give him. Those who keep applauding the lying, pill addicted hypocrite are earning every drop of scorn they get from thinking people.
Good day! (Shout out to the late PH, also a lying wh-o-re.)
would someone please pass TOJ some smelling salts … I think he’s having a case of the vapors …
TOJ – in random order:
1) spending. you do realize, don’t you, that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have NEVER been included in any formal budget – they’ve always gone through emergency spending procedures. they also add up to more than the total of the stimulus package. so the whole “Obama has driven us further into debt than Bush” BS holds no water.
2) leftists in central america???!!! NO!! I’m shocked to find gambling in this establishment.
3) SNL/Tina Fey. “I can see Alaska from my house” is probably the funniest line to have come out of the presidential campaign. and, yet again, you seem to have difficulties understanding the difference between entertainment/satire and news. But, I’m sure you have NO problem with the fact that your side still likes to mock Al Gore for saying that he invented the internet – DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE NEVER SAID THAT. Sarah Palin may not be an idiot, but she sure as HELL plays one on teevee (even folks with a PhD in English would be hard pressed to diagram her syntax-challenged run-on sentences). your guy picked her – and what a win she turned out to be for your side.
4) “Please consider for a minute. Just think back in time and try to remember when the world’s most powerful government was taken over by power hungry people who insisted on controlling everything, insisted on changing laws and policies where they controlled all the finances.”
you mean January 21, 2001? yeah. I remember that well … both recessions and the record budget surplus that rapidly became a deficit.
5) the “liberal media” canard. So what, ABC has Stephanopolis – as AW pointed out – MSNBC has Scarborough. The WaPo has Bush’s former speechwriter write their op-eds. Ross Douthat has now joined the NYTimes. really. “liberal media” label is soooooo 1990s and really doesn’t have any credence anymore. Joshua “my mommy got me this job” Goldberg is an oped contributor for USA Today.
I think calling beauty pageants child abuse is a bit over the line. I am not saying I agree with the over done hair dos and make-up, but if the girls enjoy it, then why not let them do it? It is my understanding that pageants come along with “talent shows” to showcase your special abilities. So it isn’t based on looks alone (or shouldn’t be anyway)….
A child that is put into martial arts or boxing at a young age isn’t necessarily going to have anger problems or be a bully in school…so why does everyone think that dressing up and prissing around every weekend are automatically going to ruin their self-esteem??
IMO, it all comes down to the parents. Are you supporting in the right way or wrong? Are you telling them they did a great job coming in last place or only when they come home with a trophy? I think every child needs competition, not every child has athletic abilities or are good with instruments. If prancing down a runway is what little girls need to be ambitious about acheiving their goals, then so be it.
Shame on the judges and parents for letting the make-up, faux fixtures, etc get in the way of what really matters…..
I didn’t think any of you were going to agree and all of you avoided adressing the central point that it is the largest power transfer in the history of the world. 9-11 did not transfer power of private institutions to the Federal government. It doesn’t even compare.
The Iraq War? A fraction of the money spent in the first 60 days, but the same people who were ready to die to illustrate the point of 300 billion being spent is now yawning off trillions. The hypocrasy is overwhelming.
You just don’t get it. I have liberal friends that were huge Obama supporters and they are so upset that they will not even discuss what is happening.
What are you going to tell your grandchildren about the part that you played in the biggest power grab in history?
And yes, Glen Back was on CNN under their extremely strict rules until FOX offered less money but no rules. If you honestly can’t see a bias, I’m not about to tackle that one. You either see it or you don’t.
I’ll talk about whatever you want, but I see what is happening in Washington as something apocalyptic. Everything you see is a slight of hand to divert attention from the power grab. It isn’t so bad that you don’t see it. It isn’t terrible that you condone it. But it is horrible that you defend it.
is it me, or does the “future AIG exec” in today’s Luckovich cartoon look like Kim Jong Il?
TOJ –
“9-11 did not transfer power of private institutions to the Federal government. It doesn’t even compare.”
yep. you’re right. the federal government is taking over the planet one AIG at a time (the feds can’t even control their bonus payments, but, yeah, they’ve made a total “power play”)
spending in Iraq and Afghanistan between 2001 and 2007 = $602 billion according to the CBO (http://www. cbo.gov/ ftpdocs/84xx/doc8497/07-30-WarCosts_Testimony.pdf). that doesn’t include the “surge” nor does it include the spending for FY 2008. so, “a fraction”??? at least the money spent in the first 60 days is on THIS country and THIS country’s needs and infrastructure.
“You just don’t get it. I have liberal friends that were huge Obama supporters and they are so upset that they will not even discuss what is happening.”
with you. considering your hyperventalating reaction above, I wonder why …
“What are you going to tell your grandchildren about the part that you played in the biggest power grab in history?”
that it was nothing compared to the shredding of the Constitution during the previous administration. (not to mention, you seem to forget that the bailouts of these companies happened BEFORE Obama took office – AIG, Citi, etc – this started LAST FALL)
“But it is horrible that you defend it.”
not nearly as horrible … or “apocolyptic” … as it would be had the banking system totally collapsed.
Hey USinUK! Do they have St. Patrick’s Day parades in London? Do they drink to excess? Or do they ignore the Irish there? Ever see the movie “The Commitments?” LOVED IT!
The ongoing discussion with the hyperventilator is pointless. If Obama were actually JESUS HIMSELF (untwist your panties, fellows, I never said he was) but if he WERE, it would not matter to those who’d rather huff and puff and shriek that it’s the end of the world than face the reality that their boys effed things up and somebody has to try to fix it, and it may or may not work, but most of us are hoping that it will. It’s our HOPE that they object to, since some people aren’t happy unless everyone else is as miserable as they are. Point.Less. But that’s just my opinion.
So basically, you are rationalizing the biggest power shift in history by comparing the actions of this president with the actions of the last president. I didn’t think that you respected GW Bush that much.
So since everything is in multiples of what Bush did, will Obama be multiples worse of the person that you guys consider the worst president in history?
Shreding of the Constitution? LOL!!!! What, so we could wiretap, something that has been actively done since since telephones were invented? No. Shredding the Constitution was dione when courts decided that the right to worship should be turned into a reason to restrict a person’s right to worship depeding on where they are standing. Now that is some REAL Constitution shredding
.
Or maybe our pathetic little attempt at scaring the bad guys by getting them all wet and keeping them up at night? Poor babies. And that is worse than what Pelosi and Reid have done to the economy since 2007. You do realize that they WERE IN CHARGE, don’t you? Now please send me a dozen articles from MSNBC, claiming that it really wasn’t anyone’s fault. It just happened. Or how about Barney Frank, demanding heads on platters. LOL!! Are people really dumb enough to buy his crap? Does any liberal realize that his head would be the first?
Do you even begin to understand that the people that you guys support are the best politicians in the world? Do you even begin to understand the shell games and the slight of hand that they are pulling with the help of the MSM? Rush Limbaugh becomes the biggest story on the week that the DOW drops thousands and you guys just go along with it. “I guess it’s reeeeal important that we all know about Rush Limbaugh and how important he is to the mean old republicans. . . hey what happened to my retirement?”
So if that train wasn’t built from Vegas to Disneyland, the banks would have collapsed? Wow, you sure know a lot more about the economy than I do. I would think that it was just a Pork project to give Harry Reid more power, but you are reeeal smart so you must be right.
TOJ – These little girls have stars in their eyes and maybe that is wrong, but their little brothers may be looking at being a fighter pilot or a race car driver, but why isn’t that considered wrong?
Are you serious?! You can’t see the difference between hoping a panel of strangers thinks you’re prettier than the next girl and aspiring to become skilled at flying planes or driving cars? SERIOUSLY? You don’t see a difference between being valued for what you CAN DO as opposed to what you LOOK LIKE?!
“You do understand that power shift is from the people to the government, don’t you?” and “all of you avoided adressing the central point that it is the largest power transfer in the history of the world.”
actually, I believe the largest power transfer in the history of the world was when Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity and laid the early foundations for a unified Christian Church. Or perhaps it was the Russian Revolution that deposed the Tzars and brought the Bolsheviks to power and laying the foundations for the Soviet Union. Or maybe it was when George W. Bush secretly suspended the American Constitution because, as Scott Horton at ‘Harper’s’ so elequently put it, “We may not have realized it at the time, but in the period from late 2001-January 19, 2009, this country was a dictatorship. The constitutional rights we learned about in high school civics were suspended. That was thanks to secret memos crafted deep inside the Justice Department that effectively trashed the Constitution. What we know now is likely the least of it.”
I’ll give you the benefit of maybe having a point about nationalizing some of the financial institutions, but if you recall, TARP began under Dubya and Obama is merely keeping the policies enacted at that time. And to say that these actions come anywhere close to being the ‘largest power transfer in the history of the world’ is just…well…nuts. Hyperbole is all well and good for dramatic effect, but please…don’t expect us to take your comparisons seriously when you begin presenting your over-wrought opinions as ‘logic’ and ‘truth’ and begin scolding us for not being as upset as you seem to think we should ought to be.
AW – London had its St. Paddy’s parade over the weekend, but there really isn’t the “Kiss Me I’m Irish” attitude here that there is in the states. If I had to describe it, I’d say the Irish are tolerated, but not exactly embraced. The Troubles didn’t really help. And, of course, with the 3 killings last week … well, the only good that came out of what happened is that it brought everyone together, Catholic and Protestant, demanding an end to the violence (everyone, that is except for the cowardly thugs in their balaklavas, hurtling rocks at the police)
Gosh. The Commitments. I haven’t seen that movie since it came out. My favorite Irish flicks: The Quiet Man (”I can’t say it’s true, and I won’t say it’s not, but there’s been talk” – one of the best movie lines EVER), The Secret of Roan Inish, Hear My Song (Ned Beatty as an Irish tenor – an inspired bit of casting, that) and The Dead (John Huston’s last movie).
TOJ –
“So basically, you are rationalizing the biggest power shift in history by comparing the actions of this president with the actions of the last president. I didn’t think that you respected GW Bush that much.”
wow. did you hear the whistling sound as the point when sailing by you?
your grasp on how the economy works is simply … well … mind-boggling. yes. everything was absolutely hunky-dory right up until Jan 2007, when the Dems took over the Capitol. Bear Stearns collapsed BECAUSE they took over – it really had nothing to do with structured credit. Same goes for Merrill, JPMChase, Citi, and Goldman. It was alllll because of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. Everything was FINE until they had the gavel.
reality, meet TOJ … TOJ, reality:
http:// edition.cnn.com/2008/ BUSINESS/09/30/us.bailout.timeline/index.html
it’s a simple timeline of events – you don’t need to worry about being contaminated by any liberal cooties. you should, however, be concerned about being exposed to facts … you may need your shots, since you obviously haven’t had much exposure before now.
“So if that train wasn’t built from Vegas to Disneyland, the banks would have collapsed?”
wow. someone still needs to work on “reading for comprehension” … TARP and the bank bailouts are not the same thing as the stimulus package (which isn’t, while we’re on the subject, the same thing as the appropriations bill). TARP and the bailouts started under Paulson/Bush and have continued under Geithner/Obama to keep the banks from failing. The stimulus package is a collection of projects that are aimed at helping increasing spending through tax cuts and stop job losses through federal projects. Try reading about it sometime. who knows, you might learn something.
Obama just announced a campaign-like push to force the opposition to push though the biggest power take over in history. The man understands the power of the MSM and he definitely understands that he is at the wheel. Watch how he uses AIG to justify his socialist agenda. What amazes me is that i know all you guys are smart, but are you really not seeing this?
The religious power shift that you spoke of effected a fraction of the people that this power shift effects. And yes, GW was still in the White House. So are you saying that it was OK because Bush did it?
As far as little girls with stars in their eyes, telling a girl that she is pretty is not child abuse. I didn’t choose that path for my little girl. Actually she didn’t choose that path. But strangely enough, I don’t consider the raising of other people children as being my responsibility. I’m pretty sure that the parents of those children need to handle that.
The way I see it, with the power that is shifting in Washington, parents that dare to disagree with the teachings of the main stream media won’t have much longer to decide what their kids should or shouldn’t do. Pretty girls? Not important. Let’s see what they can do for the “People”. There’s no room for pretty girls in the brave new world. Now put on that gray jumpsuit, grab your hoe and sickle and stand in that line over there. Mara, is going to tell you what you need to do.
does anyone else’s page lose comments when you refresh, then add them back a few minutes later … then lose them again?
I like the new layout … and the fact that comments are (sorta) instant … but what’s up with the Refresh Shuffle (kinda like the Superbowl Shuffle, but different) … ???
“…..telling a girl that she is pretty is not child abuse.”
Was Limbaugh’s public humiliation of the 13-yr-old, braces-wearing child of the President justifiable, in your opinion? Was it forgiveable? If so, why? What about John McCain’s joke: “Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno.” As a PARENT, What do you think of a man who’d say such PUBLIC things about a child? Just curious.
How did you like the imagery of you herding all these ex-beauty contestants into lines where you would instruct them? I’m telling you: I have a film in my head, but I just can’t get it out. It is the REAl apocalypse.
Anyway, I’m downtown and at the accountants all day Don’t be pissed at me. I really am worried about my country right now. I hope that we are strong enough to just correct. But this is a power shift and unlike some countries, our Congress is made up of idiots and pretty much always has been. I’m working and am doing OK, but a lot of people aren’t.
“As far as little girls with stars in their eyes, telling a girl that she is pretty is not child abuse.”
TOJ, WTF are you talking about?! Kiddie pagaents aren’t just “telling a girl she’s pretty”, it ALSO entails telling the other little girls that they AREN’T. No, it isn’t ‘abuse’, but IMHO, neither is it healthy to encourage girls to value themselves more for their appearance than for what they can do.
But that wasn’t the question you asked.
as for the rest of it…the snide references about ‘the People’, farm tools, jumpsuits, etc…WHATevah.
“…in the United States, conservatives have never bashed socialism because its specter was actually stalking America. Rather, they’ve wielded the cudgel against such progressive reforms as free universal education, the minimum wage or tighter financial regulations. Their signal success is to have kept the United States free from the taint of universal health care. The result: We have the world’s highest health-care costs, borne by businesses and employees that cannot afford them; nearly 50 million Americans have no coverage; infant mortality rates are higher than those in 41 nations — but at least (phew!) we don’t have socialized medicine.”
“Give conservatives credit for their consistency: They attacked Roosevelt as a socialist as they are now attacking Obama, when in fact Obama, like Roosevelt before him, is engaged not in creating socialism but in rebooting a crashed capitalist system. The spending in Obama’s stimulus plan isn’t a socialist takeover. It’s the only way to inject money into a system in which private-sector investment, consumption and exports — the other three possible engines of growth — are locked down. Investing more tax dollars in education and research and development is a way to use public funds to create a more competitive private sector. Keeping our banks from speculating madly with our money is a way to keep banking alive.”
“If Obama realizes his agenda, what emerges will be a more social, sustainable, competitive capitalism. His more intellectually honest and sentient conservative critics don’t accuse him of Leninism but of making our form of capitalism more like Europe’s. In fact, over the past quarter-century, Europe’s capitalism became less regulated and more like ours, one reason Europe is tanking along with everyone else.” – [Who You Calling Socialist?
]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/03/AR2009030303207.html
Go ahead and run screaming through the streets “Socialists! SOCIALISTS!! AAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!” It still doesn’t make it true.
“So basically, you are rationalizing the biggest power shift in history by comparing the actions of this president with the actions of the last president. I didn’t think that you respected GW Bush that much.”
wow. I’ll bet you could practically HEAR the point as it went whistling past you …
“And that is worse than what Pelosi and Reid have done to the economy since 2007. You do realize that they WERE IN CHARGE, don’t you?”
your grasp of basic economics is truly … ummmm … mind-boggling. you actually seem to believe that the economy was GREAT until January 2007, when suddenly, out of nowhere the economy started to go downhill. Bear Stearns hedge funds started circling the drains because Nancy Pelosi was sworn in. Lehman Brothers went under because of Harry Reid. Citi, Goldman, Merrill, JPMChase … they ALL started collapsing simply because the Dems took over – it had nothing to do with what had been going on over the previous 5 or so years.
oh, yeah, you’re a wizard at basic economics, you are.
reality, meet TOJ … TOJ, reality: http:// edition.cnn.com/ 2008/BUSINESS/09/30/ us.bailout.timeline/index.html
fear not, TOJ – you won’t catch any liberal cooties from clicking on the link … it’s a simple timeline of events … however, you might need to check your innoculations since you don’t seem to have had too much exposure to FACTS, so you could have an allergic reaction.
“So if that train wasn’t built from Vegas to Disneyland, the banks would have collapsed?”
uh-oh … someone hasn’t been doing his “reading for comprehension” homework again. TARP and the bank bailouts are not the same as the stimulus bill (which isn’t, while we’re on the subject, the same as the appropriations bill). TARP and the bank bailouts were started during Paulsen/Bush and have been continued during Geithner/Obama, and are meant to shore up lending institutions. The stimulus package is meant to stimulate short-term spending via tax cuts and improve medium-range employment through infrastructure projects.
Please note the lack of commentary from “conservatives” on the somewhat topic-related question of whether it’s offensive to call a girl child “ugly” and make public jokes about her appearance.
I apologize in advance for the fact that I WILL beat this ugly horse until the Limbaugh & McCain apologists/supporters comment on how they’d feel if someone publicly humiliated their own child, and enlighten us on how they reconcile and forgive such a thing in the interest of politics.
I’m with ya! I don’t know what’s going on today, but I’ve lost 2 posts (not sure why), as has Gale, evidently … the whole idea of refresh seems to be a bit possessed …
I’m wondering if the webmaster has gotten into the green beer a leeeeeeetle bit early …
Kimbery! Calling an UGLY girl UGLY isn’t offensive, it’s called the truth. Why is that offensive? Rosy Odonnell is Ugly, Inside and out. Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly cuts clear through to the bone. Get a reality check, let your kids lose at soccer, keep score! Tell them when they do a good job, or bad job. When the next islamofacist strike occurs, your pretty, non winning or losing kids may need to kill them. Let them see and learn that the world is a harsh place.
If your kid is stupid, are you going to try to get him into Yale? Well, affirmitive action might get them in, if they are female or non white…bad example, my bad!
Megan McCardle has an interesting peice over at The Atlantic –
“It’s not that I don’t think bankers are greedy. I’m sure they are. I also think homeowners are greedy. I think community organizers are greedy. I think greed is a trait fairly evenly distributed throughout the human race, though the focus of that greed varies quite a bit. That makes it unsatisfying as an explanation for . . . well, almost anything. It’s like blaming the financial crisis on oxygen.”
“So all of this “Why didn’t you stop this!!!!” where “you”=anyone the screecher previously disliked for any of a myriad of reasons, leaves me cold. Bernie Madoff is lying scum who should be buried in the darkest hole we can find. But doing so won’t fix the sad, sad state of your 401(k). No one person, or even group of people, in America is powerful enough to bring down the economy, and thank frakking God they aren’t.”
“It is much less satisfying, of course, to have history without villains. Oh, sure, we’ve got Allen Stanford and Bernie Madoff, but in some sense they’re a symptom of the crisis, not a cause of it: recessions uncover what auditors can’t. We want someone who can be blamed, ridden out of town on a rail, and his successors hamstrung with so many regulations that they’ll have to phone up Tim Geithner and beg for permission to sneeze. Preferably, they will also be paid in Necco wafers.”
“But I think that the systemic fixes that will work will be ones that don’t really involve blame: things like preventing banks from getting too big to fail, and empowering regulators who can oversee banks at the holding company levels, rather than having each piece of the elephant examined by a different blind man. Indeed, I think the biggest systemic fix, though temporary, has already taken place: it will be a long, long time before anyone takes those kinds of bets on asset markets again, or lets their leverage ratios get so out of control.”
– the article is well worth the read in its entirety.
Community Organizers are soley to blame for the housing crisis. Banks by themselves would NEVER lend THAT MUCH money to people that are high risk. Socialism at work in your home town. It’s real, get used to it, you damn socialists!
Who cares that they had meetings. The GOP leaders were basically called on the rug to be told “”the way it was going to be”.
Since when dos saying “Im pleased by congress criticizing policy, but if you do at least bring something else to the table?”
He has implored the people that oppose parts of the bills they do not like to come up with something to counter those parts – yet they fold their arms and simply shrug.
You statement is one of Bush’s, not Obama’s: I am the decider!
And wire tapping may have been done, but it as illegal. Bush changed that and made warrantless tapping an OK event. Big difference. And the whole enhance interrogation: The experts where trained in coercion of false testimony.
Watch how he uses AIG to justify his socialist agenda. What amazes me is that i know all you guys are smart, but are you really not seeing this?
Point to a source where he uses the distasteful bailout of AIG (Bush’s policy mind you) as a way to further those evil civil services (gasp! Better get rid of those public schools and colleges!).
Archie,
FYI – I responded to your “pass” question on the old forum if you are interested.
Sniddley Buttkiss! That’s funny, but we all know the Bushes aren’t stupid! Oil smart, are they! 2 Presidents? That has only been done once before, with them Adams’. Not a great speaker? Maybe not, stupid? Not one bit. Crazy (like a fox) maybe, but never stupid!
EXPAT: Indeed, the Irish say Saint Paddy ran the druids, snakes and computer virusi out of Ireland.
USinUK, does anyone else’s page lose comments when you refresh, then add them back a few minutes later … then lose them again?
I have noticed the “comment pending” after a fresh post. I figure it is not broadcasted until filtered, and then actually gets posted when cleared; hence the temporary missing posts.
Barry is a liar liar pants on fire! Tim G? A tax cheat and a fool. Hillary? She’s really going to stare down Islamofacist and korean leaders and put what? the fear of God? I think not! She is scary but to us, not to anyone else? And Joe Biden? Can you say tool? TOOL! I can! He’s a tool!
Whateva, yourself. I liked the imagery. How are you handling a whip? Sort of a very bad Indiana Jones type. Very bad . . .
USinUK
Obama has control of W to W. He is messing with us. I went into a Publix last night at closing time and the lights went out as I walked down aisles. What a cool scene for the movie. I’ve got the movie makin fever. i just can’t figure our how to make your character reeeealy evil. Mara is your whip welding minion, Kimberly is she-king of the underworld. but you: I haven’t really got it yet. But it has something to do with creamy peanut butter.
“I haven’t really got it yet. But it has something to do with creamy peanut butter” heehee … sorta like kryptonite, but not as crunchy.
when I waited tables in college, I used to LOVE going to the 24-hour Krog “after hours”, around 3 in the morning – no moms with their ankle-biters, only people who work weird hours … and the music was a lot better.
am in the midst of a bunch of pivot tables – will repost AGAIN (this time in installments) in about an hour or so …
since it’s St. P’s day, I think the fairies are messing with the board …
“Do you mean when you come back from another site and see that some comments you read previously are gone?”
I keep this window open, then refresh every once in a while … sometimes posts disappear … then, I’ll refresh again in another few minutes and the posts return …
DANGITALL, AJC!! I am digging the new format – just get it RIGHT!!!
I guess I learned my lesson. Don’t call the ajc’s baby ugly. I said I didn’t like the new format and got disappeared for my effort. I wasn’t rude, really.
On topic, I disapprove of putting kids under about 8 into any kind of competition. They need unstructured play time, not cometition. IMO
Hmmm… I don’t get it either. Why am I “she-king of the underworld?” Is it because I don’t rely on one source of news? Because I voted for the Democrat? (Yeah, like it was just me…) Because I think bald men can be uber-hot? Because I thought that a war based on lies was a bad thing? Because I don’t think Jack should be allowed to make your daughter’s medical decisions for her? Or because I go into mommy mode and defend the feelings of children on the receiving end of unprovoked public attacks by presumably GROWN MEN in public positions? Hmmm… Let me ponder that one for awhile.
Would anyone else like to come right out and admit that they were NOT offended by the bashing of then CHILD Chelsea Clinton in public jokes made by GOP Leader Rush Limbaugh and former GOP “Country First!” man McCain? And would those people admit they’d take NO OFFENSE whatsoever if Al Franken said same about their own daughters? (BTW, don’t add me to the list of Palin family bashers. I never cared one whit about the personal lives of her children, and felt Trig & Bristol should have been kept out of the political discourse.)
The topic is about children after all. Is it okay to apply your arbitrary judgments and pointed venom to children who’ve done nothing to deserve it? Is it fair to stick a child in a “beauty pageant” so others can measure her still-developing person against other children using standards they had nothing to do with defining and factors beyond their control? (Ick!)
The whip would not be as important as the overall outfit. Sort of a cat-woman from Batman, but not as much leather. We can fake the whip thing. It’s more about the hip high boots and the big hair.
USinUK
Nothing like third shift at the A&P. That was my only job that was close to food services. We were at the end of “The Strip” in Knoxville so i mopped up a lot. It was bad enough to inspire me to never want to have that job again. It got me through those last two quarters before I got that worthless piece of paper.
“Nothing like third shift at the A&P. That was my only job that was close to food services”
I think waiting tables should be mandatory like national service – I think people would be MUCH better behaved in restaurants if they actually walked in a waiter’s shoes for a year. Fortunately, I’ve never gone out with anyone who was rude to waiters – but that was always around the top of my Dealbreaker List, along with no hard drugs, no violence, and no serial lateness.
Okay avoidant one, expect this to hit you in the back of the neck like a spitball next time you spew the LIE about how you actually like & respect women & children. A father who thinks that’s okay…. really.
See ya!
UGLY MOMMY: Chelsea is a grown ugly woman. Leave McCain be. And just because Rush doesn’t want Socialism to take over America, doesn’t make him bad, If Someone said they wanted Hitler or Stalin to fail, would they be wrong? See? IT’s really really easy. Barry is bad for the US of A, and he has chosen Asshats to assist his distruction of he country, and he lied about everything. So love you new socialist dictator!
As long as we are talking the slurs on children of politicians—-recently M.McCain was ridiculed by some pundit for her weight. McCain is a size 8-10 but the pundit a 0. Normally I do not give pundits attention but this struck me as odd because M. was being interviewed by a conservative woman. On the campaign trail Mrs. McCain was criticized for being underweight during the campaign.
Ya cant win!
I get really tired of women saying its mens fault women have so many body issues. Its usually women who make the most snide, catty comments about women–who write articles about women in politics by saying: She wore a light pink leopard pant suit…… or about women at the helm of some business: In her Tuscan decorated office wearing low heels……….
Gandalf: interesting comment about Adams. His son J. Quincy was loathed as worst President-ever when he left office.
J Quincy was the worst at the time, then we had Carter, and now we have Barry!
Woman are all beautiful except for Rosie (and Michelle). Ugly is just a word silly girls. Me, I like gymnasts oh and the Rockettes, and the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders! They are beautiful. Beauty comes from the inside. I think both Mrs Bushes are beautiful!
OK, The uber hot bald guy thing might buy some consideration on the script. The film might have a likable she-king of the underworld.
But the character isn’t based on your stances. That’s just what you do in real life. The she-king is what happens when you use your powers for something other than good. Like defend the evil congressmen that are ruiining the country.
I’m just trying to figure out where I can get a white horse. And I’m going to need to buff up some more. And you are sure that bald men can look hot? I got work to do.
I’ll bite…. I don’t think the comment from Limbaugh about Chelsea was/is or ever will be appropriate. But the judges at beauty pageants are not telling other girls “Sorry, you are ugly, no soup for you”…. When you enter into a competative atmosphere, be it a baseball game or beauty pageant, you know that you are walking in with a chance of not getting first prize.
I played A LOT of sports growing up and just because I didn’t get a trophy one tournament didn’t mean I sucked at the game…. If my daughter came up to me and asked me if she could be in a pageant, I would sit her down and explain to her the chances of not winning and that it doesn’t mean she is not pretty, nor talented.(And the fact that I am not going to make her into something she is not with make up and hair extensions to win) Just like I would sit her down and tell her the possibility of getting smacked in the face with a ball if she wanted to play softball or the chance that she may not get the MVP award.
It is like I said in my earlier post, I think the fault belongs in the hands of the pageant judges and parents for letting everything get out of hand. There should be rules against making your children into something they are not. If your child has freckles, you shouldn’t get rid of those freckles….if they have blue eyes, you shouldn’t insert green contacts.
TOJ, Are you filming “Zombieland”?? I apologize if you have already talked about it….I just read an article about the movie coming out this October and was wondering if that was the one you are working on.
Ms. Feldman, you have it wrong here. The arguments for adult prostitution are not even in the same universe as parent controlled exploitation of children. It is very different than soccer and other competitions which place the emphasis on skill and dedication. The pageant world is one where children are judged on external beauty factors, and I can assure you that as a therapist I see a lot of women and teenagers who develop eating disorders, poor self-esteem and people pleasing manipulative personalities due to those kinds of contexts.
Lord no. This was helping out with shooting a 10 minute short. I do a lot of broadcast and corporate stuff, but I’m starting to get into some of the little “films” that are being shot in Atlanta. At times they can be frustrating because most of these people are hobbyist and being on time, being prepared, having what you need to do the shoot are sometimes lacking. This had a little of that, but once we started shooting, it went very well and very fast. I was usually the one calling for a retake and that was nice. Some local theater group did the make-up and it was great. With this new HD camera, it really looks “right”. It looks like a movie. And the director seemed a little flaky, but I have to say that she really covered her shots. I think it will cut together very nicely. I shot a lot of behind the scene stuff and I will probably cut something together. If I do, I’ll put a version up on U-TUBE and post it here.
“If we avoid everything that you guys say cause eating disorders and poor self esteem, children would all dress in gray jumpsuits and never take tests”
normally, I’d agree with this sentiment, but this isn’t an issue of “EVERYone gets a medal / no one loses, the other team just came in second (in a 2-team game)”. I think that – in the case of pagaents – it’s pretty much a straight line between judging little ones based on their looks resulting in the ones who are “found wanting” developing issues of low esteem and/or eating disorders based on a skewed self-image.
The one that i was suckered into video taping, they all got trophies. Like i said, the little ones were clueless. The dangerous ones were the 9 year olds that dressed like hookers and wore bright red, shinny lipstick.
TOJ–in my experience none of the children looked like hookers. Yes, they all got trophies and had a HUGE party afterward. No one I saw ever put down their kid for loosing—but I just observed by chance. The kids were all heavily made up (lights, cameras, action) but more pretending princess. Perhaps in years the pageants have been dangerously changed to showcase sexual (like Miss Sunshine: I saw but did not believe or accept). I came upon the pageant by accident and that was decades ago.
As you well know, TV is highly edited–reality TV more than shows–and shows like TV Toddlers on Mabelline are highly edited to show the freakish aspects because freaks are much more interesting than moms who dont push their girl to be slutty, girls who play violin, read chaucer are boring contestants–so the fact an actually decent tyke pageant show becomes a highly edited broadcast of creepy mothers and tykes doing pole dance, right?
EXPAT: mid to high 60’s and Sunny, lows in the 40’s till Tuesday then a little Rain through next weekend. SPRINGTIME IN GA! The Azelea’s are starting to pop, tulip and dafodils are everywhere, Bartlett Stinkers and Rosebuds are in full bloom!
Lyrazel: Where are these slutty girls who play violin and read Chaucer? Do they pole dance?
Barry wants to take those bad guns out of the hands of those incompetent pilots out there! He thinks that they shouldn’t have guns? Barry has been hitting that crack pipe again in the Oval Office!
Congress is talking of passing a law that would tax 100% any bonus over $100K
I’ve been talking about building a spare room onto my house, when’s that gonna happen? around the 5th of never…sometimes talk is just talk and as you know, talk is cheap.
I’m in DC tomorrow through Sunday, fly to ATL on Monday – DC is looking luuuuuuuuuuvly with sunny days in the 60s … ATL right now is looking half rainy/half sunny for my stay (temps in the 60s). Sun would be nice – but I’m more looking forward to seeing my dad, brother, sister, assorted in-laws, friends, nephews and nieces. Oh, and biscuits. I’m looking forward to some gooooooooooood sausage biscuits (hold the gravy).
If the Bartletts are in bloom now, they’ll be drizzling petals when I’m there … but I’m looking forward to the azaleas. how about the dogwoods? are they budding?
The dogwoods are budding, no flowers yet (that I have seen)… but maybe the Barletts will hold until your arrival…they are BEAUTIFUL!!!
I noticed the other day that I have 6 new day lillies coming up in my flower bed…..which is great since I only planted 2 last year…can’t wait to see what they look like!!!!
And my Hibiscus is getting ready to make it’s appearance!!!! I could not get over how many blooms I had last year….it just kept going!
I’d love it if the Bradfords would hold out – hopefully, I’ll see them in DC (my old neighborhood used to have the lining both sides of the street I lived off – it was like something out of a movie set when they were blooming)
My hibiscus surprised me with a bloom in the middle of December – 1 lonely bloom – I figured it was confused. It desperately needs a new home when I get back from my vacay – it’s WAY outgrown its pot.
so, how’s that ankle-biter of yours?? has she been playing in the spring weather??? the bigger question, Miss Martha – what do you have planned for EASTER???
Justajew, that easy! It would be FREE! We could choose what school we sent our school age children too! American’s wouldn’t be ashamed to be Americans! We would build the best cars in the world. We wouldn’t be held hostage by the fake science global warming crowd! We would have a strong border with Mexico, but free trade! If American business wants mexican workers, we will initiate a guest worker program, BUT, if your are here illegally we would kick you out! I would work on amending the constitution to disallow citizenship to children born of the illegal immagrant. People would be less concerned about the color of thier skin and more concerned about their fellow Americans. ENGLISH would be spoken here! Never in my presidency would you have to choose 1 for English when you called a goverment phone number. Business could still do that if they want, but not the goverment. I would intiate a draft for ALL young MEN on their 18th birthday, or upon graduation from High School. The draft would be either for Military Service, or humanitarian service, in the US or abroad. There would be no exceptions to this rule, lame sick and lazy would all play by the rules. Everyone could carry a gun, but if you used it while committing a crime, it might very well be used against you at a FIRING SQUAD. BUT LIKE ABORTION, THE FIRING SQUAD WILL BE USED ONLY WHEN THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS IN DANGER. Congress will stay in session until I approve the budget, which will be a very long time as I won’t sign any PORK into law. That’s a start…what do you think? You voting the G party? We don’t use a Pig, or Elephant we use a DRAGON as our symbol. I don’t care if the rest of the world respects us, I want them to fear us!
I would have John Cena as the SEC of STATE
Move Barry McCaffery over to the SEC DEF (I know him, he can be a real SOB!)
SEC TREASURY? the Donald
SEC EDUCATION? the Video Professor!
SEC ENERGY? T Boone Pickens!
ATTORNEY GENERAL? Judge Judy!
SEC INTERIOR? What does this guy do anyway?
SEC AG? WALTER REEVES!
Thank you for your interest in representing the Dragon. Before we can endorse your candidacy, we require that you submit your wife to us for the strictness scrutiny of her physical fitness, facial bone structure, fashion sense, obedience levels, command of the English language, educational, family, and religious backgrounds, personality, and her comprehensive knowledge of American pop culture and reality television programming. We also reserve the right to taste her cooking. *wink wink nudge nudge*
“Former Clemson board executive secretary Eugene Troutman sued the school last year after he was fired. Troutman said he was fired because he said the university’s tuition and fee increases were unnecessary. He said the board used tuition to help build an $80 million, unrestricted fund. He also questioned raises given to school administrators.”
That’s why I answered the way I did 2 weeks ago about subject of the staffing and curriculum at universities. Sorry for the interruption of the topic but certain Clemson professors received a 32 percent raise over a two-year period. Those professors were already getting a salary over 175,000 dollars. Ignore it or post on it and I will post more if I can.
Mrs. Gray cooks very well, thank you. Obedience levels? Are you a crack addict? She does what Mrs. Gray wants to do. Family and religious backgrounds? Daughter of a legal immigrant and devout Christian. She know way too much about pop culture and reality shows in my opinion.
My tot is great, growing like a weed and she now talks nonstop gibberish with an occassional “ack-ack(aka. quack quack), moo, woof-woof and “here kitty kitty”)—-She LOVES animals.:)
I haven’t really started with Easter planning yet (YIKES, I know)…she is a flower girl in a wedding coming up, so we are working on that…I will be totally impressed if she just gets down the aisle without saying do-do (you can thank the Mr. for that one) We had her dress altered and went to try it on yesterday, she hates it….she screamed the entire time….I think it is adorable, it even has a little train on it like the Bride’s gown….. All we have left to get is something to put up in her hair…..she is starting to get little ringlets:)sniff sniff
Anywho, I did buy an egg coloring kit and some eggs to go on a hunt for, but after that I have no idea….. I have been wanting to start back making hair bows…..but 24 hours in a day just doesn’t seem like enough time these days…Maybe I can get one or two out before then to match her Easter outfits….yeah, I said outfits….I am bad!!
Gandalf, the Secretary of the Interior dusts the Oval Office with Pledge……….
I loved your giving Judge Judy a command but actually feel she should be on the Supreme Court.
The Donald is in bankruptcy (again). A friend said to always hire someone who has been through bankruptcy because they understand how business works but, I think he’s just a dated fussbudget in a pink tie.
Would think Sec. of Ag. positions would be the gent that ran the Peanut Co. of Georgia Factory—to prove once and for all regulations are for others.
Replace the entire congress with the men & women in law enforcement on COPS–replace Nancy Pelosi with Billy Mayes—they can finally start earning some money instead of spending ours—
Video Professor—-FANTASTIC CHOICE!!!!
It’s been since about 1988 since i have been to a pageant. A lot of famous “actors” come from the pageant circuiit. Diana DeGarmo from Atlanta was in that racket, at least i think she was.
So I watched Little Miss Perfect last night on the WE channel. There was one mom/daughter team that I really liked. They were both in a mom/daughter pageant and the mom wouldn’t let her daughter wear any make-up other than a little mascara and some lip gloss. They were there to have fun, which I think a lot of kids are doing as well. There were the parents that went to extreme, but even the ones I saw kept reassuring the kids that they did the best they could and that they were proud of them.
There was only one mother who told the cameras the whole “Now I have to go and explain to my daughter why the judges don’t think she is pretty” Which is total BS, IMO. All the pageants I saw were judged on beauty, interview (Personality), and Wild Wear (Talent show)….
My husband was kind of digusted with the idea, but I told him if my tot were to ask to be in one, I would be the mom that let her do it…but with rules attached. (no heavy make-up, fake tan, etc)…
Frustrated, I wholeheartedly disagree with these pageants on more levels than I’ll relate, and would NEVER put my child in one!!
But to be FAIR (some of us do try to see all sides of an issue): (a) It’s not so different from teaching a little boy that his value as a person and his future in the world rests primarily upon his ability to hit, catch, or throw a baseball (Helloooo, Cobb County, where little league violence occurs mostly among parents!), and (b) Brains will only get you so far in this world, especially if you’re female. A beautiful dumbazz ditz has a better shot at success in this country than the brainy girl who’s not pretty. Given those realities, I can’t honestly say you’re out of line. In fact, I’ll go a step further and say the tenets of feminism, whether the actual tenets or those alleged by misogynistic radio hosts, are based largely in wishful thinking. In the end, we can choose only what we do and how we respond to others, not how or what they think.
I can respect your opinion on never entering your child into a pageant. And I want you to know I am not pushing my child to want to do anything. But I want to be a supportive parent, I want her to have the confidence in trying new things. Whether she wins or not is not important to me, it is that she gives her best in everything she does.
There are a lot of beautiful women in the world, but just because they are prettier, doesn’t make me ugly…. I guess that is how I see the pageants..it doesn’t make or break you if you win or lose, it is the support you get from those around you letting you know you gave it your best go.
I am all for having scores at little league games. Sure, it is for fun, but there is a lot to learn from being competative and wanting to strive and pass your set goals. With the show last night, I saw the losing girls cry, but not because they thought they were ugly….it was because they wanted to win.. Which is no different than any other competition. You cry when you don’t win a big game, but not because you sucked at it…because you just didn’t win!! And it makes you try that much harder in the next thing you do…whether it be another game or how well you do on your homework in school..
I know not everyone is going to agree with me, but I think one of the most important things I learned as a kid is my competative attitude. It went from the ball field to the basketball court, to the track field, to my homework to the colleges I applied to. Even today, I make myself strive for better things….whether it be my physical health, my mental health or a new recipe in the kitchen.
Frustrated, that’s awesome! I’m a sports mom, because that’s what the kids wanted to do. (The music lessons fizzled…) I have my own comfy bleacher chair, and log many hours working concessions and doing fundraisers and banquets. PLEASE, PEOPLE! If you can, buy what the kids are selling to support the booster clubs. Public school funding does not cover sports, and sports help kids develop good health habits, learn to work with others, set goals, and learn to win, lose, and deal with disappointment. It also keeps them off the streets, bongs, and (I hope!) each other in a nekkid sort of way. For awhile at least.
I’m just sad that art and music programs have also faded for the younger generations. Not everyone wants to do sports. Art, music, and theater, etc. provide similar benefits for the children who aren’t interested in athletic competition.
You are absolutely right….I was in the band in middle school…it just turned out to not be what I was looking for, but I gave it a go and I did the best I could…which at the time was good(1st chair) with how little I stayed with it…but I still took it as a competition…But when the time came to choose between extra activities, I enjoyed my sports WAY more.
There is a part of me that wants my kid(s) to be into sports, and I am sure a part of me will be bummed if they decide a different path…. But I will support them and learn with them in whatever they choose to do for fun.
Well, of course it is not the democrat’s fault. Fault can only be laid at the feet of mean old Republicans. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid took over control of Congress in 2007, but nothing is their fault. How could it be their fault? They care about people.
it’s like Chris Dodd and AIG. Dodd didn’t know anything about the bill that he wrote. I believe that. Dodd is a democrat and all democrats are good honest people. He cares about you and he cares about me. it isn’t a power grab at all. Congress should have the ability to first, give billions to a company that was going to turn around and give those billions to 22 banks, 16 of which were foreign owned and didn’t have financial problems.
Then when the writers of the bill realize that it might be unpopular that the organization that they gave my grandchilden’s money to might give contracted bonuses to the mean old private citizens, they should do what they do and levy an unreasonable tax on private citizens because, as we all know, they really care about people and this is not a power grab.
I’m glad that they are passing laws that punish private citizens for things that the congress was responsible for. i think that sets a good precedent. That will teach people like mean old Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity that freedom is only freedom if the wise and benevolent Congress decides it is freedom. That will show them.
Clean up your acts, Republicans. Get ready. THE PEOPLE’s PARTY IS IN CHARGE.
Get out of line and the man comes and he’ll take you away, hey you better stop children, what’s that sound? Everybody look at what’s going down.
It’s not about power. it’s about kindness and good and mean people better watch out.
Say or do the wrong thing, Here comes the tax man, just like it should be. It’s not a power grab, it’s justice and I couldn’t think of better people to hand out that justice as the people who are in Washington. After all, the head of America’s financial system forgot to pay his taxes and has never paid them, but he should be in charge of the tax system and now the banks.
Our good and benevolent president offers an open hand to Iran. Iran once again spits in his face, giving lots of power to the crazies in charge there. I’m just glad we have hope and change now. I’m glad that mean old GW Bush isn’t in charge any more. His policies suggested that the leadership in Iran are unreasonable people who cannot be dealt with.
Apparently Iran is not buying into the hope and change thing. Barbarians. Hey, maybe our fine Congress can levy a tax on somebody. That should make it all better and I know that we will all FEEEEEL much better about it. .
LOL! Well, maybe. This is how I see it. Most folks in the investor class are people with money, people who will most likely end up paying more taxes under the Obama administration. So they start cutting back and making fewer investments. They’re uncertain. Scared. They’re more cautious with investing so they’re spending less on stock. Because they’re buying fewer stock, brokerage houses don’t need as many brokers. Brokers get fired, markets go down, investors get more cautious. And repeat.
Companies have grown used to having a ‘pro-business, anti-labor’ government spending our money to help them make profit. Obama’s policies are shifting the tax burden away from labor and putting more on businesses and investors. These groups are uncertain on what the impact of those shifts will be so they’ve become more conservative with their future plans, more fiscally responsible, and less likely to take risks.
And what is the stock market except risk? You’ve got as good a chance at hitting it big in Vegas as you do on Wall Street. Which is why, IMHO, gauging the health of the economy by the stock market is pretty rediculous. During the Bush administration, the stock market went up, up, up, as did debt. But real wages stayed stagnant. So for most people, the economy wasn’t all that great. For the average joe, the increase in the standard of living was fueled by credit cards, or mortgage refinance…not by actual wealth.
My buddy Michael is pretty investment savvy and he explained the new paradigm thusly “When the market is breaking records, brokerage firms are hiring hundreds of new brokers and taking risks and spending money like there is no tomorrow…get ready for the fall. When the market is so low it is hard to believe, brokerage firms are laying off brokers and adhering to spartan budgets…prepare for prosperity. President Obama’s programs are responsible. Responsible for a new era of prosperty with a twist. We are all going to get a share.”
Shaunti, we know you are biased but don’t you think you might at least try for a little more credibility than just quoting something from the Heritage Foundation in every column.
yeah right…we were all rich and had full appreciation of our portfolios on January 19th.
D*mn it! I spent fifteen minutes writing out a couple thoughts, which I posted before my 9:49. What happened to it? Is this a ‘glitch’ or are they censoring?
Yesterday, the Congress of the United State of America passed a law that allowed them to target-tax a small group of private citizens in order to try and conceal the fact that that same Congress had given billions of dollars to a company and specifically said that the bonuses could and would be given. And you think it is about a Conservative screaming Socialism. This is hardly Socialism. this is pure, unadulterated fascism. it is a Congress that is completely out of control being ran by people who are only concerned about how much power they can achieve before their token president gets thrown under the bus.
You can laugh, you can mock all you want. if you are actually seeing what is going on and have nothing to say but to mock people who are concerned about it, there is nothing I can do about that. but please remember, the Democrats won’t be in charge forever, and the precedents they are now setting can and will be used by the Republicans against the democrats. i hope you are OK with all that.
Why is every body so mad? Dick Cheney said defecets don’t matter. Let the men keep there bonus money. They need it to be rich and rich people create jobs. Taxes kill jobs. All rich people deserve more money and no tax if you cant understand that your stupid.
BTW. You do know that Madolf gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to the DNC. That money he stole from other people, but the DNC refuses to give the money back.
The corruption and horrible management that we have seen in the first 60 days is like nothing I have ever seen. Almost every American lost their life savings when the Democrats took over Congress and now the fascist are in total control. So exactly what will they need to do before you finally open your eyes and start to complain instead of mocking people who do complain?
Europe is so 19th Century! Andi you are out of touch. Europeans suck donkey balls, they are losers. When the AJC goes paperless, I hope you get a chance to look for employment elsewhere.
Stupid Democrats following a socialist leader! You’d think the people would be smart enough to follow the Party of Lincoln, but alas, they know the can vote for dole, so they do.
I want to vote for Dole again but was sorry to hear his erectal disfunctal acted up and he could not run this time. He is not as dead as Lincoln but close so almost as good and we need that more so as ever.
I am not very interested in who is to blame. I invested and I was happy. Dems and Reps can have a blame somebody mud wrestling event–but I am not tuning in.
One of the problems with stock ownership (and all investments) are the risks involved and so I say with absolute certainty that most people who had invested in the stock market (by choice, 401ks, by advice) never appreciated the risk involved. When it was good & high few people were listening to them who said stocks were risky vehicles–that a portfolio was supposed to include cash plus bonds but buying more stock was the way of the high. Thus stock prices kept going up but so many bought HIGH and had more risk because they had loans outstanding.
Part of the volatility of the market was so many investors trying to beat out the market and get whatever they could watching their stocks sink lower than the HIGH price they paid–investors sold in panic and nothing makes a fire sale like a plethora investors trying to recoup loss being pulverized by their bank loans and non-existent savings. Nothing is safe in a stock market. Investors beware.
TOJ, the name is Madoff, Bernie MADOFF. It’s hard to take you seriously when it doesn’t appear as if you’ve done anything more than heard other people pronounce the name…
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Almost every American lost their life savings when the Democrats took over Congress
hyperbole again, TOJ? Hate to tell you, but most Americans had no “life savings” to lose! According to the Commerce Department, “the savings rate for all of 2006 was a negative 1 percent, meaning that not only did people spend all the money they earned but they also dipped into savings or increased borrowing to finance purchases. The 2006 figure was lower than a negative 0.4 percent in 2005 and was the poorest showing since a negative 1.5 percent savings rate in 1933 during the Great Depression.”
I can’t find the ‘07 and ‘08 numbers right now, but if we look at historic norms, we have to admit that we haven’t been handling our fiscal responsible very well for decades. The numbers for ‘05-’06 are particularly troubling…
“According to the BEA (Bereau of Economic Analysis), the national annual savings rate fell in 2005 to its lowest point since the Great Depression: negative 0.4 percent. Since then, it has continued to fall, registering at negative 1.6 percent in May 2006 and negative 1.5 percent in June.”
So, as you can see, when you make the charge that “Almost every American lost their savings” after the Democrats took over the Senate…well, you should be able to understand how hysterical it sounds.
————
But on one point, I have to agree with you. I don’t think that using legislation to address the issue with the IAG bonuses is right either. As angry as I am about them, it seems to me that it’s something Gaither should have dealt with BEFORE he asked them to insert the loophole into the bailout legislation. The weight of the government should not be used to force these workers to give up the money to which they are legally…even IF you or I find the manner of the payment infuriating. It isn’t right, I agree.
I would not lay ALL of the blame at Obama’s feet, but I would put something over half of the blame there. He alone is responsible for the CONSTANT DRONING ON about the so-called “worst economt since the depression” and it is a TOTAL LIE. He and his handlers concocted this “crisis” SIMPLY BECAUSE IT ALLOWED THEM TO PASS ALMOST ANYTHING IN THE NAME OF STIMULUS. They therefore made things MUCH WORSE than they would have been.
Mara, USUK, AW, you pride yourselves on being strong, proud, intelligent women. Let’s see if you can pass the combined INTEGRITY/GULLIBILITY Test. Do you HONESTLY believe that the so-called “stimulus bill” was JUST THAT? OR, do you believe that it is at least 30-40% a result of, as Rahm Emanuel put it, that you “never let a good crisis go to waste”?
If you say you believe the former then you are not as HONEST as you should be OR you are not as SMART as you claim to be.
Finally, THINK ABOUT IT, when did the largest drop in the market occur? The day after Obama’s speech promoting Geitner’s “brilliant plan” to save the financials…which BTW turned out to not exist.
Karl Rove wrote an interesting article that asks the question, “Is Obama Winging It?” and he brings up some points that could lead to that conclusion:
the (lack of) vetting of cabinet nominees
the loss of control of the stimulu package to congressional dems
the declaration that the stimulus would “save or create” 2.5 million, then three million, then 3.7 million, and then four million new jobs. ALL just numbers pulled out of a hat. (In fact at one point they claimed that the package would save or create seven and 3 eighths jobs.) Get it?…pulled out of a hat…get it? BTW, what happened to all of you out there who keep saying that you “can’t prove the negative?” How would you prove how many jobs are “saved” as a result of the plan? You could actually claim the entire number of jobs that exist at the time the economy recovers as being “saved by the plan”. Will any of you defend that?
doing away with so-caled enhanced interrogation of terrorists. (had to change his mind on that one.)
the promise to close Guantanamo Bay within a year
In the world of COMEDY, improvisation is fun and harmless. If a joke doesn’t work or a skit falls flat, nobody dies or loses their job. Improvising as PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES, is a little different. I think SNL would call them the “not quite ready for prime time” politicians. Too bad things can’t be fixed by making pretty little fluffy speeches. If they could I would have voted for him myself.
TOJ – You do know that Madolf gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to the DNC. That money he stole from other people, but the DNC refuses to give the money back.
actually, from what I could dig up, the money went to BOTH parties and the ‘hundreds of thousands of dollars’ wasn’t given to a single person OR in a single year. According to the Wall Street Journal “Mr. Madoff and his brother, sons and niece donated a total of $267,000 over the past decade to candidates, parties and political action committees…”
So that means that Madoff and his family gave maybe…$27K per year to politicians. Do you honestly think that money accounted for an spend five, six, seven years ago is going to be ‘given back’ by any group?! Be serious. Of the policians and groups that recieved contributions in the last election cycle, Chuck Shumer and Frank Lautenberg have chosen to give their Madoff contributions to charity. Didn’t see anything about anyone else…
Here’s a list of politicians who have received Madoff money – from Fox News
Democrats –
– Massachusetts Rep. Ed Markey
– New York Sen. Hillary Clinton
– Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry
– New York Rep. Carol Maloney
– Massachusetts Sen. Ted Kennedy
– New York Rep. Charles Rangel
– New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine
– New Jersey Sen. Frank Lautenberg
– Former Missouri Sen. Dick Gephardt
– Former New Jersey Sen. Bill Bradley
– President Barack Obama.
Republicans -
– Former Texas Rep. Jack Fields
– Arizona Sen. John McCain
– Former N.Y. Rep. Vito Fossella
– Former Louisiana Rep. “Billy” Tauzin
– Former N.Y. Rep. Daniel Frisa
– Former N.Y. Sen. Alfonse D’Amato
I liked Lyrazel’s post earlier this morning. My response to the topic question is no,no, and no way. The stock market was definitely on it’s way down a full year before Obama took office plain and simple. Excessive greed and gouging are just a few of the things impacting the market. Shanti’s claim is quite weak since President Obama has only been in office since Jan 20th. Good rebuttal Andrea.
Do you HONESTLY believe that the so-called “stimulus bill” was JUST THAT? OR, do you believe that it is at least 30-40% a result of, as Rahm Emanuel put it, that you “never let a good crisis go to waste”?–If you say you believe the former then you are not as HONEST as you should be OR you are not as SMART as you claim to be.
ah. So if I “honestly believe” something that YOU don’t, I’m obviously a stupid liar? mmmm-kay. No room for opinion, just dishonesty. No room for differing views on what ’stimulus’ means. Oh, no. Chuck KNOWS what I really think, and so he’ll know I’m lying if I disagree with him. Which, unless I’m stupid, I won’t.
Chuck, thank you for your question about what we honestly believe about the stimulous bill. I think, however, that your question presumes too much. Even the most educated, experienced economic experts admit they cannot fully predict what/how/when the economy will turn around, and which factors will for certain and for shizzle work or not work. I don’t presume knowledge I don’t have.
If I interpret your question to mean do I believe that the new administration is TRYING to fix this crisis and prevent a 1930’s-type depression, my answer is “Yes, I believe they are trying.” If you mean do I believe there is no such thing as corruption in anyone affiliated with the Democratic Party, then “No, I don’t believe any group is free from corruption.” If you mean do I believe that taking steps to improve the job situation here in America is more worthy than paying billions of dollars to private contractors in a country halfway around the world, (some $32 billion of which I read is not accounted for in Iraq), then “Yes, I believe investing in initiatives here at home is a better idea.”
If you’re really asking if I am a gullible, trusting woman who’ll believe any horse hooey a man tells me because it sounds good, then my answer is, “Yes. I certainly was. There was a time when I really truly trusted the words and intentions of good, God-fearing, bible-preaching conservative-voting men.” I’d like to think I’ve wised up since then, but my 401K is in the toilet like everyone else’s, so….. no actual evidence there. Thanks for asking.
and this article should make everybody stop and think for a minute…
One A.I.G. executive, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he feared the consequences of identifying himself, said many workers felt demonized and betrayed. ‘‘It is as bad, if not worse, than McCarthyism,’’ he said, referring to Joseph McCarthy, the former U.S. senator who used indiscriminate, often unfounded, accusations to suppress opponents. Everyone has sacrificed the employees of A.I.G.’s financial products division, he said, ‘‘for their own political agenda.’’
The public’s anger, he said, ‘‘is coming from bad facts as a result of someone else’s agenda — or just bad facts, period.’’ Instead, he said, the so-called bonuses were in fact just payments that had been promised long ago to workers, including technical and administrative assistants.
Technical and administrative assistants? IT drones and gofers? Should they have to be afraid just because they took a well-paying job with what a company that, as it turned out, profitted from unscrupulous investments? Should they really? Evidently there have been threats of violence in addition to the incidents of hostility.
Thank you, Chuck. I can appreciate somebody that doesn’t come in being sarcastic and not seeing that there is a shared blame. I am willing to give TOJ a hundred dollars if he can say something negative about the Republican Party. Not once in the past two years since he has been on here has he. Democrats this, democrats that.
Good thing for Barry there are a lot of stupid people left out there! His ratings are falling, he needs a big win! Maybe he’ll do good on his Barrackatology? HEHE What an ASSHAT he is! His FUGLY FIRST LADY met with Alicia Keys and it’s news! He talks to the Iranian people? WTF? He is such an idiot, I pray we last out his administration! Can’t God take him and JC home?
Mara, to me the only opinions that amount to much are the economists who have ROUNDLY CRITICIZED the spendulus plan. Here are just a few examples out of TONS I found. So if the “experts” agree that much of the bill has ZERO EFFECT on the economy, that kind of clinches it.
Martin Feldstein: The Stimulus Package is Not about Long-Term Growth
Russell Roberts: There’s little any economic doctor can do to move our $14 trillion organism of an economy in the next few months.
Wang added that Republicans should continue to whittle-away at minor stimulus package items that don’t address the economy directly, such as sex education / family planning funds, anti-smoking and HIV prevention programs
Harvard economist Robert Barro looked at the multiplier effect of World War II military spending — supposedly the Mother of All Stimulus Plans and found that “wartime production siphoned off resources from other economic uses — there was a dampener, rather than a multiplier.” Barro prefers eliminating the corporate income tax to massive government spending.
An initial CBO analysis found that a mere $26 billion out of $274 billion in infrastructure spending, just 7 percent, would be delivered into the economy by next fall. An update determined that just 64 percent of the stimulus would reach the economy by 2011.
Economist John Taylor thinks it better to let the Federal Reserve deal with the short-term problems in the economy, while fiscal policy should attend to long-term issues: “In the current context of the U.S. economy, it seems best to let fiscal policy have its main countercyclical impact through the automatic stabilizer … It seems hard to improve on this performance with a more active discretionary fiscal policy, and an activist discretionary fiscal policy might even make the job of monetary authorities more difficult.
“…to me the only opinions that amount to much are the economists who have ROUNDLY CRITICIZED the spendulus plan. Here are just a few examples out of TONS I found.
That’s funny. I googled “stimulus plan praise” and “stimulus package praise” and found TONS of reports in favor of it. Hmm. Who knew?
I guess that proves that people will believe only what they want to believe, and that differing opinions don’t matter. That’s an excellent point, Chuck. I think the ladies can justifiably shut down the blog for good now. Thanks for sharing.
Hey Scalia, Thanks. There is certainly enough blame to go around on all sides. The first $700 billion under Bush WAS JUST AS BAD AS THE TRILLION OBAMA IS SPENDING.
I don’t believe I’m being too cynical taking Emanuel at he word about trying to pass an agenda while there is a “crisis”. I also can’t imagine that anyone could honestly look at the stimulus bill and recognize that if over 60% of the money is not even being spent this year, it isn’t going to do much to stimulate the economy.
AW, that’s really funny. I googled that just now and there were lots of hits showing “praise for the stimulus package”. To call them “reports” is just a little bit disengenuous.
NONE that I saw were economists. IN FACT, all of the ones that were listed on the first 2 pages WERE THE GROUPS GETTING THE FREAKIN’ MONEY.
Not exactly the same thing.
Chuck, thanks again for the enlightenment. You make excellent points. I’m reminded of the story of the starfish on the beach.
The Starfish Story by Loren Eisley
One day a man was walking along the beach when he noticed
a boy picking something up and gently throwing it into the ocean. Approaching the boy, he asked, “What are you doing?” The youth replied, “Throwing starfish back into the ocean. The surf is up and the tide is going out. If I don’t throw them back, they’ll die.” “Son,” the man said, “don’t you realize there are miles and miles of beach and hundreds of starfish? You can’t make a difference!” After listening politely, the boy bent down, picked up another starfish, and threw it back into the surf. Then, smiling at the man, he said… “I made a difference for that one.”
So Chuck, in addition to whining about how irretrievably screw-ed we all are because more of us decided to vote for choice D instead of choice R last November, what are YOU doing to make it all better?
The blame for this mess lies squarely at the feet of the Republican Party. No one else. Bush and his cronies sold this country out in the four years that they had an absolute majority in Washington. The Dems tried to fix this in 2007-2008. But no. Bush vetoed just about everything the Dems did. All the while nothing was done between 2003 and 2006 with the out-of-control spending on the illegal war in Iraq.
Anyone who blames the Democrats for this are beyond stupid.
I actually say bad things about the Republican Party, but considering that most of the liberals here would never ever say anything bad about ANY Democrat, I didn’t think that was any sort of litmus test. Or is this just another test that is only for conservatives?
And here’s a clue: The Democrats are in charge of everything, now. EVERYTHING. Would you rather me talk about Rush Limbaugh? Do I have your permission to talk about my government and what I don’t like? Haven’t you guys whined for years that complaining is patriotic? Is it my fault that I support the Party who’s big sin was to make bad guys think they are drowning, but you support a party who is destroying the economic backbone of this country?
I am, however disappointed in your response. I have known you to do the unlikely and respond to what is said instead of turning this into an episode of the Tara Banks show and talk about the person who said it. At least you understand what you are up against. How can anyone defend a Congress targeting a few individuals for taking money from their own employee, adhering to a contracted deal that the very same Congress drafted? It’s good that you didn’t even try.
But there are lots of things going on right now that should be scaring the hell out of you, that is unless you are just too dumb to look around.
So, let me see….Left-wing, anti-corporation, anti-wealthy, pro-labor union candidate runs on a platform of increased governmental spending/involvement, increased capital gains taxes, and soon-to-be government-mandated health insurance for businesses, and the stock market tanks after he gets elected. What a shock.
10. In a sharp break with normal presidential protocol, Obama decides to appear on a late-night talk show, in which he proceeds to insult handicapped people.
11. In a sharp break with standard presidential neutrality regarding sporting events, Obama publicly fills out his NCAA basketball bracket, openly roots for NC, admonishing them that they better not screw it up and lose. What a jerk. In response, Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski suggests that Obama should focus more on the economy and less on making Final Four picks.
And, more seriously,
12. With Obama’s blessing, the Democratically led Congress creates special tax laws to punish specific individuals who the Dems don’t think deserve legal, contractually-obtained compensation payments from their employer. So much for the sanctity of legal contracts.
Thanks again to all my insulters last week. I understand your reluctance to discuss the issues themself, since it’s your guy who is running the country into the ground and making a mockery of the presidency.
The DOW peaked in October 2007 at over 14,000. The same week it peaked, FOX Business Channel went on the air. Since then, the DOW has dropped 50%. Coincidence or causation?
Or perhaps Bushies want to blame Bush for the market tanking in the first 60 days Bush was in office (the NASDAQ’s last gasp was early March 2001 and then it went off a cliff and lost 80%). No? You don’t? No kidding.
Start with a random set of 30 stocks picked to somehow represent the entire universe of hundreds of thousands of companies (big and small) and then using that as a stand-in for how a president is doing is foolish. Might as well go with the Super Bowl winner’s conference for determining whether the market is going to go up or down.
Yea. That’s right. A pro-capitalistic financial network goes on the air the same year that complete financial idiots take over Congress. So the same people that believed in Hope and Change now blame the financial network for the crash.
It wouldn’t be so pathetic that you are trying to rationalize this madness, but the really pathetic thing is that you don’t have the spine to come on here under a name that others would recognize you. Of course considering the ignorant garbage you are claiming, I wouldn’t put my name on it either.
Dodd and others are trying to blame the AIG mess on Obama. Now what was it I was saying about the racist Dixiecrats throwing Obama under the bus? Expect to see what happened to Carter, happen to Obama. His only hope is that the Republicans take back over Congress in 2010. Isn’t it nice that his only hope is also our only hope.
Idiot-Start with a random set of 30 stocks picked to somehow represent the entire universe of hundreds of thousands of companies
Well, Einstein. Be my guest. Pick another 30. Se if you can find one that isn’t tanking. Why people as dumb as you are allowed to vote is what is wrong with this country.
Don’t expect much discussion about the issues. This is a nightmare for liberals. How can anyone rationalize what is happening? The only thing they can possibly say is: Give them time. It will work. The Congressional Budget Office just released a report that destroys any hope that their power grabbing plan will ever help anyone.
So the slimy democrats try to turn the anger toward AIG after the attempt to divert to Rush Limbaugh failed. I don’t have a single liberal friend that will even discuss it. So much for Hope.
We could be giddy at the abject failure of the democrats, but we can’t because their failure is our failure. Of course they are not failing. The largest power shift in the history of mankind is well on it’s way.
I love the deregulation canard. How can you say the Bush administration deregulated the industry when regulatory codes more than doubled in number of pages since 2000?
What I know to be the truth is that our deficit is quadrupling under Obama, and very little of that money is helping stimulate the economy, but instead is aimed at increased government control over every aspect of our lives.
Just wait till Congress decides whatever group you belong to makes too much money. Then they’ll put a 90% tax on it. This AIG thing is such a great distraction for them, we shouldn’t care about $165 million in private contracts when Obama is flushing TRILLIONS down the toilet,
The change in tone coming from the left-leaning posters IS pretty amazing, TOJ. All of a sudden, the Bush-bashers who previously were experts on everything from national security to Constitutional Law are now claiming that simple economic issues are way beyond the grasp of mere humans, such that any criticism of Obama and the Democrats is completely invalid. But, hey, I did appreciate the story about starfishes.
What is maddening to me is that the big-government/socialistic path being taken by the current administration has been proven to be a loser time and again, but we’re supposed to somehow believe that this time will be different?? I didn’t like a lot of things that Bush did, but in the end it all added up to small potatoes. The debt being accrued right now and the fundamental changes being made to the relationship between government and private companies will likely impact us for several generations.
People are not buying it, and Obama will be thrown under the bus just like Jimmy Carter was. His only hope is to have Congrtess flip in 2010. that saved Clinton and the economy did pretty well under a Republican Congress and a Democratic President.
The discussion here is nice and friendly which is good, but no one wants to yalk about what the Congress is doing.
Poor Jack. If it doesn’t match his ideology, it must be stupid. Poor poor Jack. And resorting to name calling is the tipoff that you have no debating skills.
Wasn’t rationalizing the “madness” at all, but pointing out the stupidity of trying to equate what the financial markets are doing in response to lower earnings and reduced dividends from corporations with the president who has been in office less than 60 days and had little of his agenda enacted or even discussed. It’s COINCIDENCE, not causation. Anyone trying to create causation is sniffing glue in their spare time.
It’s really easy enough to find stocks that have gone up in this environment. I’m holding a few right now. Let me make it easy on you: WMT is higher now than in October 2007. Not much higher, but the largest retailer in the world is doing better than many other stocks. Oh, ok, you need another. Look at NYSE: GAT. I happen to like this one a lot, because it pays a high dividend, their profits are protected by government fiat, AND is higher than when I bought it.
Oh, and you don’t like my handle, huh? Think I’m somehow “hiding” behind it. Well… ByteMe, little boy.
So you have given me the earthshaking news that Walmart has appreciated while the rest of the stock market crashed. Thanks a lot. It appears you have had your television on during the last year. Congratulations. LOL!! So it must be OK that the federal Government has launched a lynch mob against private citizens to turn attentions away from their power grab because Walmart has thrived in this horrible economy.
Here’s a clue, Einstein. The Congress, the real financial instigators, have been under the control of the Democrats since 2007. Now what were you saying about 60 days? Oh, you mean the last 60 days when that insane Congress had no controlling power, the last 60 days when $19,000 from each American household was spent and the state of Georgia is fourth from the bottom of the states that will get that $19,000 from each Georgia household? You are calling someone a little boy and you are throwing tantrums while we are being robbed blind, but you are apparently too frggin’ stupid to see it.
You had no interest in debating anyone. Your name says it all. You can’t debate on a rational level so you have no other choice but to post as a hysterical little twit. Well you certainly accomplished that. Call me a little boy all you want while preaching at me for calling you names. It’s not like your opinion means anything.
Ah, either the problem is fixed or my work computer is blackballed for giving negative feedback about the new format. Never call someone’s baby ugly. Just say’n
It’s simply amazing that Cons that are desparately trying to claim the stock market only went down since Obama was elected were the same ones that blamed the slide in stock prices in 2001 (after Bush was in office) on Clinton.
So, let me try and get this logic straight:
If you’re a Republican, you can’t blamed for anything that happens in the first year of your presidency, it’s alway the fault of a preceding Democratic president. Even if you have to go back 30 years to blame a Democrat, it’s OK.
If you’re a Democratic president, everything that happens on your watch is your fault. Even things that happened long before you were elected are your fault, not the cumulative result of decades of “anything goes” deregulation.
So you believe that the economy is set by the actions of the president. I see.
It’s about Congress. The problems we are now having began in 2007. Can you tell me what happened to the power structure in Washington in 2007? Election? Pelosi? Reid? 300 investigations in the first 100 days? Any of that ring a bell? It’s about Congress.
Obama and Congress now have free run. If you don’t have a problem with what they are doing, there’s nothing I can do about that. But get your facts right. Bush is gone and a Democratic Congress has been in charge since 2007. Got it?
Poor Jack*ss: If my opinion means so little, why did you bother to engage me? Why do you bother to flood this blog with meaningless comments? You’re as bad as the Whiner over on Wooten’s blog… lots to say, none of it matters to anyone but you. Poor you.
And your post of 12:07 says everything about your ability to reason on a rational level. You really think this started in 2007???!? What kind of crap is that? Why is it that real economists were worried back in 2006 that we were in a housing and credit bubble and that the CDS market was a huge unknown that was going to blow up? If it doesn’t match your ideology, it doesn’t exist for you, I guess. “It’s all the Democrats’ fault!” is your repeated lament, as though if you keep repeating it and looking for evidence of it — while ignoring any evidence to the contrary — that you are somehow “right”.
Except you’re not. You’re just a Poor Jack*ss who’s a blog commenter. Must really suck to be you.
BM-Poor Jack*ss: If my opinion means so little, why did you bother to engage me?
Other people read this other than you. Where you aware of that?
BM-Why do you bother to flood this blog with meaningless comments?
I’m sure they mean little to you. I hope you are having a good day. You seem very bitter and out of control, today. You haven’t hit your spouse, have you?
BM-You’re as bad as the Whiner over on Wooten’s blog… lots to say, none of it matters to anyone but you. Poor you.
So how many blogs are you visiting? That could account for a lot of that anger. Why don’t you do your loves ones a favor and take a long walk iin the sunshine. Be careful not to step in front of a bus.
BM-And your post of 12:07 says everything about your ability to reason on a rational level. You really think this started in 2007???!? What kind of crap is that?
Congress controls the economy. The leaders in Congress control Congress. The Democrats are the leaders in Congress and have been since 2007. I don’t think it could be any clearer.
BM-Why is it that real economists were worried back in 2006 that we were in a housing and credit bubble and that the CDS market was a huge unknown that was going to blow up?
That was in 2006. What year is this? How many years do they get to fix it? So far it has been a disaster. But you really just need to calm down, so why don’t you leave that to people who can think a little past that anger.
BM- If it doesn’t match your ideology, it doesn’t exist for you, I guess. “It’s all the Democrats’ fault!” is your repeated lament, as though if you keep repeating it and looking for evidence of it — while ignoring any evidence to the contrary — that you are somehow “right”. Except you’re not. You’re just a Poor Jack*ss who’s a blog commenter. Must really suck to be you.
Wow. It really must suck to be anyone within a city block of you. You really need to get that anger under control. I didn’t make you vote for Obama. It’s not my fault that you now look like a complete fool. Calm down, Pal. Take a walk in the sun. It will be over in 2010 when the Republicans take over and you won’t look like a fool anymore. But stay away from all these blogs. You just aren’t smart enough to compete and I understand how that must make you very angry. .
Wow. Just wow. Must really suck to be that dumb and not know it. Congress has trouble controlling their own sex organs. You give them way too much credit… or blame.
Oh, and your faith that the Republicans will take over in 2010 is going to be truly tested. They used to do “opposition” really well, now they can’t even get that right.
Sexualizing little girls??? You can’t be serious! You will look at a 6 year old girl in a bathing suit and claim its sexy?!? You are the REAL pedophiles here! Not the pageant people. As far as the extreme parents argument goes well, your judging your opinions on T.V. shows. You can’t really know until you’ve been there. I have seen some pretty damn fanatical parents in other sports and activities I have done. But, never in pageants.
The market is reflecting the reality of the fundamentals of the companies that trade on the exchanges. Banks that had been very profitable overnight lost billions of dollars, so their prices dropped like a stone. Citigroup dropped from 58 (2007) to .97 earlier this year. Citigroup is one of the Dow Industrial stocks, so its drop caused the index to drop. The Dow Industrial Index is “the Market”. As the fallout from the subprime lending mess, the collateralized debt obligations, etc., etc., rippled out, companies like Lennar (homebuilder), Home Depot, Countrywide dropped like stones. Obama had nothing to do with it. Now, let’s look at what might have caused the problems with the banks, and the massive company, AIG. In the late nineties, with a Republican majority in Congress, Senator Phil Gramm, late one night inserted the verbiage into a bill that repealed Glass-Stegall. I’m not sure about the correct spelling, you can look it up. Glass-Stegall prevented banks, insurance companies and investment banks to do any other sort of business other than what they specifically were supposed to do. No mixing of business. This was what enabled AIG to be able to create the “financial service products” that brought them down. Now, you can blame all you want, but, bottom-line, Clinton, who was President at the time, didn’t have enough pull in Congress to override a veto for this little gem of legislation. So, he didn’t try. I suspect that most people in Congress didn’t read the bill, or if they did, they thought, in their peculiar Republican mindset of “all deregulation is good, all government is bad” that this was a great idea since it would eliminate the largest roadblock to banks, insurance companies, and investment banks playing in each others’ playpen. What we need to do now is stop blaming and figure out how to get out of this mess. We don’t need to re-regulate, necessarily, but we do need to have the regulatory agencies to do their jobs. The SEC needs to grow up and do what it is supposed to do. The FDIC needs to watch the banks like the hawk that it is supposed to be, not sit back and watch things devolve to this point. Figure out how to value these “toxic assets” so that banks won’t continue to drop like flies. If you don’t have a good idea how to do this, then shut up and get out of the way of the people that inherited this mess.
There were lots of small changes made over the years that made it possible for the problems to occur. the problem with your logic is simple: There hasn’t been a Republican majority in Congress since 2007. In 2007, the economy began to downturn and the things that this Democratically controlled congress has has done has further destroyed our economy, not fix it. It is now simply a power grab with the slimy congress doing everything they can to divert attention from that power grab. Just look at the AIG mess. The democrats OK’d the bonuses and then siced the mobs on the private citizens at AIG. You do understand that no matter how incompetent a Congressmen is, he is set for life when he loses his seat, don’t you? Let’s send the lynch mobs after the Congressmen.
Obama is being thrown under the bus by the racist Dixiecrats. I am pretty sure that there were promises made to Hillary and people like KKK Robert Byrd are laughing their butts off. They will all still be in Congress with MUCH more power and Obama will join the ranks of Jimmy Carter as one of our worst presidents. He is laughing his butt off on 60 minutes. He looks like a fool.
deborahinAthens: I love a rational voice. When we all realize how fruitless it is to focus on placing blame and instead focus on solving problems, we will get out of the mess a lot faster. The stock market is risky by definition. Values go up and down and that is how it works. When I think back to how I might have moved my investments to something more secure before it all fell down, the stocks I would have chosen as safe were those that tumbled the farthest.
I hope most of the posters enjoyed a lovely weekend, unlike -apparently, The Other Jack and ByteMe. That bitter bit was a terrible way to spend the lovely weather, guys.
Oh, TOJ, I figured the blogs were run by a service. They look like all the other generic blogs out there. I guess ajc outsourced the geek jobs needed to run the blogs. I wanted to comment on last week’s topic and tried half a dozen times. This topic is fairly inane, IMO. I do hope you got out into the great weather this weekend.
Barry said he bowled like a Special Olympian, I think that would leave a bad taste in the mouth of any Special Olympian. He’s shows his true elitist attitude only infrequently, but you need use his screw ups to see through him for what he is. His wife is fugly inside and out, so he has no one to talk to, but Allah. His talking to the Iranian people shows his ineptness and naivety. He’s a conceited fool, and we are stuck with him. Gosh Dangit!
The biggest problem facing the Dragon party is that during a debate, if Barry would come off with that smug attitude he gave McCain and cut me off, I would calmly leave my podium, walk over to him, {BITCH} slap him then return to my podium and look over at him and say, “don’t do that again son, you don’t want to [piss] me off”, then calmly continue my point. People don’t seem to like that aproach….
Interesting debate style, Gandalf. It would be interesting to actually see that some day. Can you imagine an angry tussle on stage after a round of political insults?
The Dragon Party had one specific platform that twitched my feminist roots. You would draft all young men. I would draft all young people. The only exception would be those with impairements that restrict them from independent living. I would require service to qualify to vote nad prohibit political indoctrination of the conscripts. I would make pregnacy grounds for dishonarable discharge for both parents, which of course, would void their right to vote. They could redeem that right by some other service to the country; teaching, perhaps.
Gale the draft all young men was a comprimise with the neo right wing faction of the Dragon Party. I wanted to draft everyone, but the whole preggers thing was a pain. You have a eloquent solution, thought the teacher thing kinda scares me as political indoctrination is what the NEA seems to be doing to my children. If we can get the NEA out of the schools and take 75% of the administrators and use them for target practive, then I am all for it. (it can be paintballs if anyone is upset about taking the admins away!)
President Obama hates special needs children so much that the stimulus package contains an additional $12.2 Billion in funding for the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).
IDEA is a law ensuring services to children with disabilities throughout the nation. IDEA governs how states and public agencies provide early intervention, special education and related services to more than 6.5 million eligible infants, toddlers, children and youth with disabilities.
Infants and toddlers with disabilities (birth-2) and their families receive early intervention services under IDEA Part C. Children and youth (ages 3-21) receive special education and related services under IDEA Part B.
The State of Georgia is slated to receive an additional $310 million in IDEA funds on top of the previously allotted $300 million. The result of the much-maligned stimulus package is that “our world’s most precious and unique people” will actually get funding for their special-needs education, except in States like Alaska where Republican governors are turning down portions of the money.
If Obama REALLY cared about the special needs children, he’d keep his big mouth shut and do nothing to help them. Talk is all that matters to the special needs children of Republicans, and he should honor that.
So, we are in a economic recession, and spending $12.2 Billion on special needs children is going to stimulate what part of the economy? Another stupid liberal “it feels good” move! Dumb dumb dumb…. 12.2 billion should be spent on offshore drilling.
Take Note “isn’t that the truth?” Are you too stupid to use english? Maybe you can’t recognize when you use it incorrectly? Maybe you can hook up with the eldest of 8th graders “who turned 16 the summer before high school?” He equal need to take not that he is a dumbassi tribesman.
TakeNote you seem to be aliberal. TakeNote, you have a defect. TakeNote your brain malfunctions. TakeNote you have a mental disorder. But I take pity on you!
Point well taken on the teachers, Gandalf. I’m an outsider so I can’t speak to what is going on in schools beyond what my partner’s sister tells us. The ‘teach to the test’ attitude is ruining quality education. And who decides what is on the test anyway? Good teachers dare not go outside the plan because their students may not score well on the standard test. Who cares if they learn how to think? I don’t know if NEA is responsible, but I do know that good teachers are priceless and bad teachers should be fired.
I’ve thought that a full draft was the way to go for a long time. But pregnant soldiers cannot fight. The problem currently is there is no strong consequence for irresponsible behavior.
Gale, actually, I had a fine weekend, except for not having access to my kitchen while they repair the floor. Both days were truly wonderful and much of it was spent outside, and who could argue with that?
Oh, as for your desire for “rational” debate, that doesn’t happen often in unmoderated blog comments. Truly a strange experience, some of the people you “meet” out here.
Teachers, for the most part want to teach, parents for the most part, could give a fly flip what happens in school. I go over every class with my boys every night, to find what propoganda they are dishing out. You know when school starts all the supplies they request go into the Commie Locker? That’s what kills me. I spend $100 bucks for supplies and the illegals in class, who don’t bring anything, use it! Make me want to buy a bus company and bus them all back to Mexico!
That sucks, Gandalf! I understand that some kids may lack school supplies. But it is the responsibility of the school system to deal with that, not for your kids to have to share their supplies. It sounds like they expect a certain number of kids to need supplies and so elevate the supplies for kids whose parents will buy stuff because they will “spread the wealth”. Grrrr… I don’t like it.
Way to go, Gandalf! It is one thing for the school board to decide to provide supplies for students who do not have supplies. It is quite another thing to take them from one student to give to another without the parent’s knowledge or permission. What earthly reason is there for any parent to buy supplies if the “state” will just give them to your kid for free? That solution is inappropriate. Now, I understand that some families, citizens or legal immigrants, may be in dire straits and cannot afford supplies. Send that issue to the school board to provide for those students. If the parents are illegals, the kid should not be admitted to class in the first place. I am sorry if that offends anyone. But illegals do not get free services, except a bus ticket back home. This is as bad as the practice of random locker searches in schools. We have basic rights in our Constitution. If we allow them to be trampled in the schools without cries of outrage, how do we expect those students to grow up with any real sense of what American is all about?
To all the children are beautiful
That is certainly a very worthy cause. You paint a broad brush however in assuming that since an Alaska Govenor turned down a protion of the “stimulus” money they obviously are not funding any program on the sort that you tout. Again, do not misintrepet me – your cause is a very diserving one. Your comments regarding a “republican” senator however make your other comments null and void – you disagree with all republicans period.
No, Obama is turning out to be very conservative and supportive of Wall Street and the rich who run it. What a disappointment for those of us on the left!
As if the Garden State didn’t have enough troubles, lawmakers in Trenton are prepared to level one of the foundations of the state economy: the Brazilian.
The state Board of Cosmetology and Hairstyling is moving toward a ban on genital waxing altogether after two women reported being injured in their quest for a smooth bikini line.
Both women were hospitalized for infections following so-called “Brazilian” bikini waxes; one of the women has filed a lawsuit, according to Jeff Lamm, a spokesman for New Jersey’s Division of Consumer Affairs, which oversees the cosmetology board.
Technically, genital waxing has never been allowed — only the face, neck, abdomen, legs and arms are permitted — but because bare-it-all “Brazilians” weren’t specifically banned, state regulators haven’t enforced the law.
“The genital area is not part of the abdomen or legs as some might assume,” Lamm said.
“Perhaps not, Mr. Lamm, but what do you say to the thousands of cosmetologists who are about to become criminals overnight? And what do you say to the millions of New Jersey women who will be forced to live with unwanted hair? And what of the state’s jobs and economy? Will New Jersey next ruin pivotal wealth producers like the orange body spray sector, or neon underbody manufacturers, because of a few industrial accidents?”
“Perhaps Brazilians from trained cosmetologists pose a slight risk, but what of the dangers of unlicensed waxing, sure to occur when the demand is driven underground?”
“Spa owner Linda Orsuto, who owns 800 West Salon & Spa in Cherry Hill, estimates that most of 1,800 bikini waxes performed at her business last year were Brazilian-style. “It’s huge,” she said, adding that her customers don’t think their bikini lines are anyone’s business but their own. “It’s just not right.” She said many customers would likely travel across state lines to get it and some might even try to wax themselves.
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and you all thought that we didn’t have enough to worry about…
eeewwww! Yeah, somebody’s got to do it…but ripping the hair off butts and genitalia just doesn’t sound like a lot of fun to me
and speaking of men getting waxed…the article said that “only the face, neck, abdomen, legs and arms are permitted” so why isn’t back hair included in the ban?
how do we expect those students to grow up with any real sense of what American is all about?
Hey Gale, children, above al others, already know exactly what America is about because America is really about childish things now. 1.) It’s all about me and mine! 2.) HE DID IT!!! NOT ME!!!!
Those two positions pretty much sum up what America is about today….
JustaJew, That is so sad, but true in many sectors. We don’t provides a lot of examples of responsibile behavior and accountability. If we did, those executives of failing companies who took/are taking bonuses, would instead refuse them and appologize to the many people their risky actions effected. I long to see one American executive publicly say he is sorry for the mess he helped to create and he is resigning because of his part. It is not in our cultural base apparently. Do parents even teach their children to fess up to thier mistakes anymore?
Let me see, the Boy Scouts don’t teach that Justajew! They are as American as Baseball and Apple Pie! The Girl Scouts teach some values, though they have sold out to liberal ideas already….
Tell me about it! How dare those women organize a club where they teach young girls to think for themselves. They should be teaching those girls about their place in the kitchen and their subservience to men. Silly liberal Girl Scouts!
JustaJew, WTF are you talking about? I was simply stating they have gone against the ideas enspoused by Juliet Lowe. Boy Scouts are a faith based organization, something I am sure offends you. God is missing from this country, like those silly Europeans, we as a people are turning our back on God. Woman should know thier way around a kitchen (as should men)!
Actually, I find the message of the girl scouts to be conficting. On one hand, GSA helps girls learn skills for success, character, leadership, etc. Good things. On the other hand, the annual cookie sale seems to be the biggest aspect of participation for both girls and moms. While fundraising is good, COOKIES ARE BAD. Yes, they taste good, and you can all yammer on endlessly about how they melt in your mouth, ‘merica & applie pie traditions, but the fact is: If you need a sleeve of thin mints or a box of samoas to suddenly make your nothing day seem worthwhile, then your priorities are not something I’d want to teach little girls!
Further, these girls are coming of age in a society that worships the svelt beauty of youth. THIN = PRETTY in their world. THIN = RESPECT. Nothing we grown-ups have done in our generation disputes that. If we are to teach young girls to compete in this world, then we should teach them honestly: “Honey, put down the cookies and go for a run, or the men will act like they’re doing you a favor to hit that.” Where’s the lifetime benefit of learning to cook & eat healthy? How does it help them to wind up with 50 boxes of sugary crap in their kitchens, only to spend Saturays outside of BlockBuster hawking them to already-overweight moms whose husbands stopped looking at their behinds years ago?
And as bad as girl scout cookies are for the girls, they’re even WORSE for Moms! That’s another rant, but Mom really doesn’t need the calories OR yet another hassle that takes time away from herself, her husband, and her children. Doesn’t sound like a very liberating tradition to me!
AW, I agree with everything you just said and it comes down to tenet number 2 of modern America, HE DID IT, NOT ME!!!!. The lack of personal responsibility is the culprit. An offshoot of that is lack of self control. Sure I’ve got 2 boxes of thin mints in my freezer right now and I know if I eat a whole box, it’ll definitely not be good for me, so I may eat a couple after dinner or when watching a movie, etc. In other words, I’ve got the self control to not scarf down a dozen at a time. That seems to be missing in people these days…now it’s someone else’s fault. “Well, if they didn’t sell the damn things in front of every Wal-mart, grocery store and Blockbuster then I wouldn’t buy it. It’s THEIR fault for shoving them in my face at all hours of the day” you know, b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t like that….
when I used to fundraise for my peewee football league (boy that was a long time ago), I’d actually have to WALK, WALK I TELL YA! from door to door and, shocker of shockers, I wasn’t accompanied by an adult but only with another member of my football team. I learned self-reliance and a sense of responsibility. It’s like a child isn’t allowed to do ANYTHING for themselves anymore…for crying out loud, parents are calling their “child’s” college professors to complain about how unfair their child is being treated…
JJ, yeah… I try to put my foot down and say, “Handle it yourself!” most of the time. The only way to learn is to clean up your own mess and carry your own load. The expectations on modern women are immense, though. (I’m not a man, so I’ll let y’all speak for yourselves.) It feels like we’re supposed to do and be all things to everybody at all times. I know women juggling everything while still looking fabulous and smiling, but they scare me. Tick tick tick tick…. The technology that was supposed to make life easier really just mandated that we do more! We should say “NO!” more readily, but of course, others pull the guilt thing and the peer pressure. “All the other moms made time…” So, add yet another thing to my to-do list! One day I suppose I’ll miss the chaos and get tired of the peace and quiet [that allegely comes] in the “golden years.” If I make it that far.
There are some in the child behavior study arena that claim children learn self control from unstructured (not the same as unsupervised) play, not from structured games or TV or video games. This was a point I tried to make last week when I couldn’t post. Kids under 8 should not be competing in structured events, be it pagents or little league. They are barely to the point of accepting team sport rules and the idea that they do not win every time and we want them to compete? Not yet, say I. Let them play neighborhood rules in made up games for a while.
I agree wholeheartedly! Who doesn’t remember just getting up on a summer morning, going outside with your friends and not coming back til the streetlights came on (seems to be the universal sign for “It’s time to go home”). Try telling a parent to let their kid do that today. You’d be quietly talked about behind your back at best and have socail services called on you at worst. What happened to our society? I was given the go out to play but don’t talk, look, or even come close to engaging anyone you don’t know and if they try to engage you, you scream your head off yelling FIRE, FIRE! speech. I was given the speech everyday before I went out to play. Now, there’s no such thing as unstructured play. TOO DANGEROUS!!! Baloney! It’s safer now than it was when we were kids (there’s just more exposure of the unfortunate crimes). If parents would spend more time being parents to their kids instead of trying to be friends, then maybe we wouldn’t have this kind of thing going on today.
JustaJew, My rule was whistle range. If I could not hear my dad whistle -and it was loud- I could expect a spanking when I did get home. It happened once and it took me w while before I realized why I’d been spanked. That neighborhood friend was out of range. Too bad she had the neatest field to play in. On the other hand, there were plenty of kids and areas large enough for baseball and tag, and hide and seek. Of course, we didn’t have Nintendo or TV or air conditioning either, nor did my folks have the leisure or extra car to drive us around.
My rule during the summer was the 5 o’clock rule. I had to be at home when my Mom got home from work. I could almost immediately leave, but at 5 PM, I had better be at home. This was a huge problem with the social calender of an 11 year old.
My old 24 inch bike was my restriction as to where I could go. If i could ride my bike there and get back home by 5, I was free to go or do what I wanted.
I would have never even considered letting my kids have that sort of freedom, but they were raised in Atlanta. I was raised in a small town. I wonder if small towns are still as open as they were?
TOJ,
I can’t speak for all small towns but I live in a small town here in AZ and I can say for a near certainty that it is the same in this small town. You won’t find any children out on the weekends except at the ballparks where they are playing organized sports, not just playing (from what I’ve seen, even the siblings have to sit and watch the game with mom and dad instead of being able to play in the park). There are a few exceptions but just a few. We havea park in the neighborhood (a small one) and you might find as many as 5 kids there (out of a neighborhood of 350 homes!!!) so, yeah it’s really hard to find a kid out just enjoying themselves…
I grew up in a small town. My brother and I were hiking, riding bikes, playing Freeze Tag, Hide and Go Seek, camping, etc. all the time. My mother never worried because people all over town would call her and say that they saw us. And yes, we had to be home by the time the streetlights came on.
By doing all of this activity, we were tired and ready for bed. We weren’t as hyper because we burned off all of the excess energy. And punishment for us was to not let us go outside.
I took a group of 5th graders to Rock Eagle about three years ago. The first day, they hated being outside, they hated not having their electronic gadgets, walking, and hiking. By day two, their imaginations were going. They were having fun. They made up their own games with their own rules. It was great.
Lesson to parents: don’t buy them the games, cell phones, etc. Keep the computer in the living room, and send them outside. Hell, go outside with them. I loved playing Red Light with my parents.
I heard a piece on NPR the other day about a program on teaching games to grade school kids. Imagine a generation that does not know how to play red light? They have paid “coaches” that get kids started during recesses by teaching them things like jump rope games. The “coach” described how kids would simply mill around during recesses, but now they run around and play, and also stay more focussed during class time. Kids always learned those games from one another, but now the older kids may not know the games, even if they can take time from their ipods and hand held games. They don’t need drugs, they need unstructured play time.
JustaJew,
but that logic America is a faith based goverment, you may have read this before somewhere…”We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
For you scholars of the constituiton, who recently wants to violate this? “Clause 3: No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.”
a ‘creator’ that is just as likely to be the Flying Spaghetti Monster as it is to be Jesus’ Daddy. As likely to AhPuch or Vishnu. Or Amun-Re. Or even Odin himself. Could even be a pantheon, or a duality.
And THAT’S why government shouldn’t get entangled with religion…even in the relatively passive way it does now through the tacit acceptance of a singular “Creator” or “God”.
Mara – a ‘creator’ that is just as likely to be the Flying Spaghetti Monster as it is to be Jesus’ Daddy.
Does that really matter? It’s all about how we treat each other and for centuries, how we treated each other was all about what our religion taught us. Civil laws were taken from religious teachings. Yes, there are always a zealot who uses religion wrongly, but religion teaches us to treat others justly.
The eradication of religion from public society takes away that teaching. The shootings that are taking place in the zoom-zoom lounge parking lot is not taking place in the First Baptist Church parking lot. Religion has a use and a purpose.
Look at the past few posts. We are talking about how with modern society, a parent has to highly restrict our children’s movement during the day. This is caused because of a much more dangerous and course culture that embraces open sex, drug abuse and abhors moral teachings.
If you want to get rid of religion, you had better have a replacement that will act as a blueprint for mutual respect and honesty, but no one is doing that and our culture continues to nose dive.
Religion is pretty much gone as an influence in our school systems and our culture in general. How do you think that is working out so far?
I totally agree about being a parent first, friends later….but have you not seen the news??? Parents can’t do anything remotely close to how our parent’s disciplined us. I got spanked…..with a paddle….made by my dad….as I was bent over to touch my toes. Granted, I got to the count of 3 as a warning to straighten up, but can you imagine if someone saw that today???? We would have DFCS called on us in a heart beat. Where did spankings go in school????? I would totally sign the consent form that told them they have a right to give my kid a swipe if he was rude/being a brat/not listening/bullying/etc
I live in a small town, I have to run to the mom and pop shop to grab some milk occassionally… But do you think I can leave my tot in the car (with it running) for 10 seconds while I run in????? No, all it would take is someone to see my baby in the car, me not there and I get children’s services called on me… And for those of you who are not parents….sometimes it gets really aggrivating hauling kids in and out of the car for a 2 minute pit stop to pick up something. Especially when they do not want to get back IN the car….but would rather run around in the store..
As far as the small town thing, I would NEVER in my life let my kids roam off around the neighborhood….Not because of them, but because of all the creepos in the world. My baby loves to play outside, and for that, we go out every day the weather is nice….Either we dig up rocks, she plays in her little house while I sit and read (I do believe in letting them have their own imagination)…or it is both of us sitting on the ground blowing bubbles or scribbling with sidewalk chalk.
A lot of rights have been taken away from the parents, so as much as I would say it is ALL placed at the feet of the parents, it isn’t. It is every other wolf cryer who turns in innocent parents and putting the fear of having their kids swiped away…that is why you don’t see kids out…that is why everyone is inside, together…. they don’t want peeping suzie next door to know their every move so that she can call them out on something she doesn’t agree with.
I lay the blame on too many lawyers, and judges who refuse to toss out cases with no merit, not the lack of religion in schools. We let people sue a teacher for disciplining a child because the child was misbehaving and ‘that’ parent did not agree that the child should be spanked. The school system caved in and removed the option of spanking. Oh, and while they were at it, they took away the right of a teacher to hug a child because that might be seen as inappropriate touching. So, the system is not sued anymore, but discipline goes to heck in a handbasket. We get a couple public cases of a parent neglecting a kid, or a neighbor disciplining a neighborhood child and suddenly, we are all afraid of the role adults have carried for ages; that of supervising the care and teaching of children. We no longer have the village raising children.
I don’t want the schools teaching religion to a child. That is a parental responsibility. If they fail, that poor child will have to learn moral and ethical behavior from other adults in his environment. But if the other adults are afraid to speak to the child because they might be sued or end up in jail, it is the children and our entire society that suffers. The only tool we have to teach ethics to children in the absence of parental guidence is a just society. When the news is filled with politicians breaking or hedging laws and the adults are seen to be rounding disrepecting those in authority, what does the child learn? We have only our actions left with which to teach children.
but I don’t want to ‘get rid of religion’. I just want my government to keep its nose out of it. And for religion to keep its grubby paws off of my government.
As for having a ‘blueprint for mutual respect and honesty’, there already IS one that’s almost universal whether you’re talking about religion or basic human rights…Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
“It’s all about how we treat each other…” I like that! Good tenet. Is that kind of like: “the love you take is equal to the love you make?” BTW, if you don’t mind me asking, how does that work for you personally? Do you treat EVERYONE the way you want to be treated, and do you reap the rewards of this? Or do you let it slide for the “undeserving,” and if so, how is that working out? (I’m really just curious, and would not want you to answer if it would embarrass you to be truthful. No biggie.)
“The eradication of religion from public society takes away that teaching. How so? The atheists I know adhere to the “treat others the way you want to be treated” philosophy almost religiously. To them, it’s about having personal integrity and honor, not about what an invisible cloud man in the sky, or the congregation down the street thinks. The atheists I know are pretty decent, but you might know different atheists.
“The shootings that are taking place in the zoom-zoom lounge parking lot is not taking place in the First Baptist Church parking lot.” Really? I’ll bet that’s news to the folks at the First Baptist Church in Maryville, Ill, the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, the St. Thomas Syrian Orthodox Knanaya Church in Clifton NJ, the Living Church of God in Brookfield, Wis, the LDS Church in Lehi, UT, the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, the First Congregational Church in Neosho, Mo, the Ministry of Jesus Christ church in North Baton Rouge, and the Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church in Detroit. Just sayin’.
Good logic there Mara! Goverment shouldn’t be INVOLVED, but Scouts can AND SHOULD BE! JesusKiller Jr. was trying to say the Girls Scouts were in fact faith based, which they once were, but are no longer. They are a sad shadow of what they once had been.
Atheists are not really atheist, they are just too lazy to follow God’s word. They want to smoke thier pot, or have relations with this person or that, and maybe do something goood for someone, if they get around to it. Liberals are much the same. They want GOVERMENT to take care of every problem.
Oh, I just remembered1 Barry is going to lower from 40% to 28% the tax deduction of your charitible contributions. Christians give 10% to the church, he is no Christian! He must be muslim? What do you think? He loves the call to prayer, he can quote the Koran in Arabic and he married a woman the looks like a camel. I love the way democrats think that when a tax reduction expires, it’s not a tax increase! They are lazy just like atheists.
I would like to see the scouts separated from the church. However, apparently they need a universal sponser so they have places to meet. I am not sure why that needs to be religious groups except they ussually have accessible space not otherwise committed most of the week. The scouts would have lots of favorable things to teach boys and girls without religion. It really is possible to teach morals and ethics without the religious aspects. From my brief exposure, most scout troops don’t delve into religion anyway.
I am outraged at what I have to go through! I had my home visit, I agreed to spay and neuter, microchip, I took their advice on a vet and on puppy food. I agreed to home visits in the future and to give them back to the rescue if I couldn’t keep them for any reason. Now this is enough…they are MY dogs! I have established a strong relationship with the local animal hospital and I’ve taken excellent care of them yet the micochip contact information lists the rescue as the primary contact and not the name of the other dog owner. It lists the rescues address and not ours. I had no say in when they would be spayed and neutered….the vet said not before 6 months for large dogs but the rescue had it done at 4 months. We signed a binding contract but had no idea the were so unreasonable. These puppies are part of OUR family!!
Gandy, sorry ’bout that…I guess I didn’t read the thread carefully enough. (shrug) As a privately funded and privately run group, the Scouts have every right to espouse (or eschew) any doctrine that they please.
Gandalf, I must counter with an assertion that many Christians follow “God’s word” because they are too lazy to think for themselves. It comforts them to think there is a set of rules that will grant them immunity from any failure of conscience or will. I’ve know a good many nasty Christians.
First, can you respond to anything without sounding completely out of control hysterical? Damn, I’ll bet you are a hard person to be around.
I knew someone would come up with what, 10 or twelve examples of violence in churches out of the millions and millions of churches in the US. However, just about every dive bar has had some sort of violence and/or shooting in them, so please explain your point. Millions and millions of churches with no problems so you attempt to prove a point by listing a dozen. Congratulations, your point is, as usual, pointless and without merit.
I’m not about to waste time trying to try to prove that this culture is more course and dishonest than the culture was when religion had a bigger footprint. You probably need that proven to you, but it’s not something that I would want to tackle.
I still say the problem is not that religion has a smaller footprint, to use your analogy, TOJ. Many of those examples of bar shootings involve church going people, men usually, but not exclusively. The problem is out of control people who have never learned self control. Lawyers and politicians make it worse by trying to make us believe that everything is the fault of someone else. Churches may, or may not help parishioners gain self control. It depends an awful lot on the message. You may get perspective by listening reflectively in church on Sunday while someone else gains perspective meditating in a yoga class, or even while biking through the countryside. Self control is exactly that. Self control cannot be imposed from the outside.
TOJ – Millions and millions of churches with no problems
um…don’t you mean ‘no REPORTED’ problems? Because we still don’t know the entire scope of the Catholic/pedophile priest scandal, nor do we know the scope of reported abuse within seminaries and orphanages run by the Church. We have no way of knowing how many pastors have skimmed from the offering plate, how many have had affairs, how many drink and gamble and look at pornography. We don’t know how many parishiners have killed, stolen, beaten their wives, or raped their girlfriends. There’s just no provable basis for your assertion that an overtly religious society is ‘better’.
It always bothers me when people insist that “this culture is more course and dishonest than the culture was when religion had a bigger footprint”. When, in all probability, society hasn’t changed all that much…people are just more open about it and news travels faster.
Jack, I can’t fathom how you think I’m hysterical. I asked a couple of questions and made a couple of observations. Can’t imagine what’s happening in your life that you’d interpret this as hysteria, but I note (and respect)your reticence re: the tenet questions.
YOU mistakenly asserted that shootings are not happening in church parking lots. One might wonder what the point of your assertion was in the first place? Violence happens every day in places where people “didn’t think it could happen here.” There are thousands of “dive bars” where shootings do not occur as well. At least one of those congregations was attacked by a self-professed conservative who was so angry at “liberals” he had to shoot somebody. “Sinners” come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and religious affiliations. If you’d like to argue that, I invite you most graciously to knock yourself out.
You’re right. I’m sure there are lots of shootings in churches that just aren’t reported. Probably happens all the time.
That’s a nonsense argument. Bad things can happen anywhere at anytime, but considering that on this very forum, you and several others said that pornography would never exploit girls and young women, pardon me for not accepting that extremely thin argument for condemning churches especially considering the good that they have done and do on a daily basis.
It is a huge mantra of liberalism: Condemn anyone who doesn’t think like you. Never, ever consider the beliefs or convictions of anyone if their convictions do not agree with your and the secular mantra. All others are evil. All others are bad. So it is a given that all people with religious convictions must be bad. Evil things must be happening in church which we are not being told about.
Gale
Simply not true that it is church going people shooting people in bar parking lots on Saturday night. That myth went away in 1965. I have worked in bars my entire life and I have yet to hear anyone claiming to get up the next day so they could go to church.
People may get enlightenment from other sources on occasion, but the vast majority of people got their moral teachings from church. I know that no one here will agree that church serves no good purpose. That’s a given. No one here has ever given an inch of consideration for the religious convictions of anyone, while insisting that others change entire dictionaries before discussions can be carried out on subjects that they care about.
You can deny it all you want but if the rare instance of an incident in a church is your only defense that secularism results in the same kind of civil society as a more religious one, then you don’t have much of an argument.
Yes, I had a point. But you insist that churches and biker bars must have the same amount of violence. So what could I say to that other than shake my head, roll my eyes and say, “Got it, you are right again.” LOL!!
Paranoia is a thought process characterized by excessive anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat towards oneself. In the original Greek, παράνοια (paranoia) simply means madness (para = outside; nous = mind). Historically, this characterization was used to describe any delusional state.
I’m just saying that bar room shootings are not good examples of behavior. People who have been drinking are not making the best judgements even when they do have religious training. I don’t really care what the basis of anyone’s self control, just that they need to learn self control. I contend that children learn self control during unstructured play. I think they can learn that control even if they never step foot in a church. If a child does have religious training, it still depends a lot on the adult behavior the child witnesses how the teaching will be assimilated.
Yeah, but the biker bar has better whiskey, all churches have is a little wine. So, where are we on this? More fun to get shot in a biker bar than in church? Which has the funeral and which has the wake again?
Gale, Churches sponser many Boy Scout Troops/Cub Scout Packs, but it’s not exclusive. Churches generally have a young male population they don’t want going to hell in a hand basket. Oh and they get to play with knifes and fires too! And shoot firearms and bow and arrow, and lots of other kewl stuff! You just have to believe in a supreme being to be a Boy Scout, that’s all! Many VFW’s and American Legions sponser Troops. As you can’t separate morality and a supreme being I think it’s a good idea to keep the together!
Please point out the sentence I used to “insist that churches and biker bars must have the same amount of violence.” I didn’t. I pointed out that churches are not immune to violence as per YOUR assertion. If you’re attempting to make the point that the practice of religion removes the propensity to sin from the effected population, you’ll have to present more compelling evidence than your personal belief that no legitimate argument exists.
Gandalf, “Many VFW’s and American Legions sponser Troops.” Since I am not very knowledgeable here, it still seems like a big part of the sponsership is a place for a large group to meet regularly. It makes sense to me that it would be a service organization. I’m glad it is not the exclusive province of a church.
I used to have an aquaintaince who was a church member although he was an atheist. His rational for lying to the church about it was that they were doing service functions that he wanted to be a part of. Atheists don’t have an organized group where he could accomplish the same things in the community.
What I am saying is that when religion was more prevalent in our society, there was less crime and people felt generally safer. I personally think that the two issues (religion and safety / secularism and more crime) are related. Religion was taken out of schools and the public view at the same time that crime rates escalated, family structure deteriorated and our culture became more coarse.
Anyone CAN learn good behavior anywhere, but please name a single place where they DO learn good behavior on a regular basis. Our schools are a disaster. Babies are having babies. We have had to kill off a tenth of our excess population.
Everyone, including you were talking about how much more freedom kids had when we were young. Why do you think our culture has gone through that kind of change? Why is it more dangerous now for kids? We have taken moralism out of children’s education. Yes, they might stumble over it and learn it through some sort of epiphany, but training of the golden rule is taking place where?
Gale mentioned earlier that “We no longer have the village raising children.” I think this is a rock that both sides fling across the fence at each other. On one hand, conservatives pine for the old days when the neighbors would keep an eye out, tattle to your folks, or take matters into their own hands when necessary. “Kids were safer then.” But when a “lib” writes a book espousing the values of looking after the childen in a community, suddenly concerned citizens are buttinsky socialists trying to tell people how to raise their kids. Personally, I don’t care to fling that blame rock back and forth. I know dozens of kids in my community, and they know I’m there for them. They know I’ll tell them the truth (even when their parents won’t), and they know they can come to my house when there’s trouble afoot — even (and especially) when that trouble is Daddy and he’s angry with beer on his breath again. Say what you will about that; I make no apology.
So you think that the reason why children can’t do the things we did is because the entire town doesn’t have disciplinary actions over everyone’s children? Do you live on this planet? My mother and father are the only people who told me what to do.
Culture as a whole has changed. it’s not a matter of throwing rocks. Liberals have insisted that religion be taken out of anything that would influence our children. As liberals tend to do, they didn’t think this one through very well and now there is no training for children except what they get on TV. You are looking at the results everytime you see the unwed birthrate, the crime rates and the coarseness of our society.
Now what about that birthrate, that crime and that coarseness did they learn in church, AW? You guys insist on it, so at least take responsibility for what you have done.
You’re right. I’m sure there are lots of shootings in churches that just aren’t reported.
That wasn’t my argument and you know it. MY point was that crime happens in churches as much as it happens anywhere else, contrary to your assertion that *all* church folk are pious, decent people who do no wrong.
I do find it interesting that the prisons are FULL of people who claim to be believers, yet agnostics and atheists (those whom you claim have ruined everything), comprise less than 1% of incarcerated criminals.—
you and several others said that pornography would never exploit girls and young women
Again, that was never said and you darn well know it. Yes, the assertion was made that pornography doesn’t necessarily involve children nor exploiting women…which you insisted is the norm, not the exception. But nobody has EVER said that it NEVER happens.
So it is a given that all people with religious convictions must be bad.
Hyperbole much? I can, off the top of my head, name at least three VERY religious people that I hold in the highest of esteem…the Dalai Lama, Mother Theresa, and my second-best friend. There are even people who used to post here (like Monica, JBM, and Renee) that I have the utmost respect for, even though they held beliefs that I found occasionally baffling. Christianists are universally contemptable, as are Islamists, and other extremists. But I DO know some very respectable christians, muslims, hindus, wiccans, and universalists. It isn’t the belief system, nor the level of religiosity that make one ‘bad’. It’s what you do with those beliefs.
when religion was more prevalent in our society, there was less crime and people felt generally safer
The operable word here is ‘felt’. People ‘felt’ safer. Pre-9/11, people FELT safer, too. Of course, on September 12th they were no less safe than they were on September 10th, but it didn’t FEEL that way.
And IF there actually was less crime in the olden days, it might have been because fewer things were considered criminal. Certainly drunk driving wasn’t a crime. Nor was raping your wife. Heck, you could legally beat her and the kids black and blue and nobody would fault you. And wasn’t lynching and terrorism was acceptable in the south, as long as it was against the blacks? And racism was preached from the pulpit as the right and proper thing? THESE are the days you’re romanticizing?!
And I don’t doubt that there were fewer criminals, because there were fewer PEOPLE. It’d be interesting to know what the percentages were of criminals to general population. Now that number would at least be some kind of solid evidence of your assertion, as opposed to your feelings of dire peril.
Liberals have insisted that religion be taken out of anything that would influence our children
Again…lie, lie, and lie. I’d like to see where ‘liberals’ have “insisted that religion be taken out of”…television – one of the biggest influences on our children (televangelists don’t exist?! then exactly who IS Creflo Dollar, TD Jakes, and Joel Osteen?), out of education (No parochial schools, no Christian Clubs, no bibles in your locker?!), out of the law (What? Sell beer on SUNDAY?! EGAD!), and out of…what else? Tell me, TOJ, in what field does religion NOT have access?
All the ‘liberals’ have done is insist that if you want your children indoctrinated into a religion…that’s YOUR choice and your responsibility.
————————————————————————
Gandy – Christians aren’t better than you, they are just going to Heaven!
Mara, I agree with everything in your 7:25 this morning. Go get ‘em.
TOJ, “Everyone, including you were talking about how much more freedom kids had when we were young. Why do you think our culture has gone through that kind of change? “
Well I don’t think it has anything to do with removing religion from the public schools, as I have plainly said. I would first point at the entitlement attitude encouraged by a welfare state and too many lawyers, and judges without the clout to toss out cases with no merit.
Perhaps more first line magistrates would ease that last problem. Magistrate: “What, you want to sue the teacher for putting your child in the hall because it hurt his self esteem? Teacher, why did you do that?” Teacher: “Because the child struck me after I told him to stop kicking the child in front of him during a test.” Magistrate: “Parents, I think you need to apologize to the teacher and teach your child to behave in class. Next case!”
Jack, I have no problem with churches and I don’t care if people worship and study the Bible or “good book” of choice every day of the week. I just don’t want public observance of religion in a public classroom.
Yep it’s all Obama’s fault, and the rebounding of the last few days? All because of the GOP and thier policy of “NO” (or should it be NON?)
I especially love the whining about spending money on disabled persons. That 12 billion would be much better utilized in an “abstinence only” program, or in the hands of “faith based” charities…
I guess the answer here lies in the conservative court system of GA. Where it’s as easy to dispell a marraige as it is to get a wart removed. Only the wart (being the father) gets no rights, just financial obligations and a small small percentage of the childrens time at the mother’s pleasure.
Anybody want to pull up the stats on children without fathers active in thier lives? I would love to know why conservatives RAIL on about unwed mothers, but ignore fatherless children from divorce? Fatherless because that’s how the conservative courts make it that way. No say in medical care or lack of, no say in religious upbringing or lack of, no say in extra curriculars or lack of, no say in anything, just financial obligations codified and absolute, with none of the other rights or joys associated with fatherhood. This is the legacy of conservative divorce law. Why do conservatives hate dads?
For those that care, “The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.”
People in prisons are almost always Christians. So I suppose those big yards are for prayer meetings.
The rise in crime since the 50s is all in my imagination. There was just as much crime but people just didn’t tell. I guess people are faking the murder rate increase.
Since Sarah Palin’s daughter was pregnant, all sins are now the fault of Conservatives. that’s good to know.
And it wasn’t liberals that insisted that religion be taken out of schools. In fact I now remember that it wasn’t a liberal atheist that fought to have it done, I think it was a missionary.
Got it.
Now excuse me while I board this big old spaceship and head on back to the good old planet earth.
You guys are one laugh after another.
And Mara, the argument that day was in fact that you and several others said that women and children are never exploited in the porn business. You covered yourself by saying that child porn was not actually the real porn industry.
Once again, you don’t really take a stance. You just argue,
Let’s approach this from a different tac. So why should have religion be taken out of schools? It was deeply embedded in schools for 200 years before the divine atheist insisted that it be taken out. Why was that important after 200 years? Could the SCOTUS just not read? Was the Constitution a different document back then?
Please explain to me why it became incredibly important?
I would ask other questions about crime and the coarseness of our society, but apparently, all is just fine. There is no more crime and children are just as safe as they always have been. Liberalism WORKS. And hasn’t it been GREAT for our society.
Thanks, Gale. Just as a by the bye…nobody has ‘removed religion from public schools’. All that has happened is that teachers and other figures of authority who represent the ’state’ are no longer allowed to advocate their belief on shool time…student-led prayer, faith-based extra-curricular groups, one-on-one proselytizing, and the students handing out religious flyers are all very much alive in the public school setting.
And yet, if those unused embryos were not used, they would be –with respect– tossed in the trash. This is just a path into another round of abortion in any form is evil.
Bristol Palin in a liberal? Maybe so, what does that have to do with her being a slut that doesn’t take precation? Nothin’ Did you all forget, sex is for procreation….
Liberals like Barry, Clinton, and Biden don’t give very much to Charity, Conservatives give a lot. Just look at Mr. McCain for example. So conservatives care about people, and liberals don’t. THEY THINK (well the have a mental defect, so not very clearly) the GOVERMENT will fix all social ills! Liberalism is truly a mental disorder!
Mara – All that has happened is that teachers and other figures of authority who represent the ’state’ are no longer allowed to advocate their belief on shool time…student-led prayer, faith-based extra-curricular groups, one-on-one proselytizing, and the students handing out religious flyers are all very much alive in the public school setting.
AH, so now it is left to the kids to teach morals. And isn’t that working out really well. Thanks for the clarification.
But strangely enough, you didn’t answer my central question: Why ws it necessary that it be changed? What was the HOPE for the CHANGE? Why would liberals, (sorry, not liberals, more like you people here, who of course would never be considered a liberal) want religion taken out of our schools (sorry, not taken out of our schools, but turned over to the students, or whatever you are claiming today).
So what was the reason? And where do you think kids get their morals and character training? It is prohibited in public schools, so where do they get their training, now?
And of course that lack of training for the past 25 years has absolutely no effect on our culture. The crime rate increase is imagined and the unwed mother rate is actually a good thing. So see? I’m really happy about all those good things that liberalism has taught us all. I just can’t wait for when our incredibly efficient government gets to tell executives how much money they can make. Wasn’t the AIG stuff GREAT!!!! I think Unions should show up at people’s homes threatening their children. I think the kids deserved it. Hell, they probably had nice clothes. Somebody get a rope.
Yep. Liberalism. We are definitely on the right track, now. I have to go, now. I need to listen to our incredibly smart president who is going to tell us a new strategy about sending tens of thousands of troops into Afghanistan. “The situation is increasingly perilous.” And now he is talking about terrorists wanting to kll Americans. Wow. This is new. Too bad Bush never thought of that.
But this isn’t about fear, like with those mean old Republicans, this is about HOPE.
you and several others said that women and children are never exploited in the porn business.
Oh, please. I double-dog dare you to search out the quote (with link, please) where any one of us said that pornographers **NEVER** exploit women or children. Sheesh.
It’s absolutely impossible to have any conversation with you when you get like this. You say that I “don’t really take a stance. You just argue”. This is factually, provably false. I think that pretty much anyone here can name at least two issues I’m adamant about.
but just for you, here are some of my ’stances’ –
a woman’s body is her own and she can, if she chooses, terminate a pregancy for ANY reason.
Because religion is so diverse and divisive, it belongs in the church not in public policy.
I do not believe that there is a God, but I could be wrong.
People should be free to do as they please (as long as it doesn’t harm the rest of us) but businesses and corporations need to be watched and regulated.
I support the Fair Tax.
I support decriminalizing marijuana.
I believe illegal aliens should be tracked down and deported.
I believe that the Founders expected society to progress and built into the Constitution enough ambiguity to provide structure without restricting moral growth.
I believe that children are usually smelly, messy, unmannerly, annoying, and should be seen, not heard.
That zydeco shouldn’t be considered ‘music’.
That all animals should be treated gently and with kindness, most especially those we intend to kill and eat.
I believe that most people mean well.
I believe that there are smart people and stupid people, but most of us fall somewhere in between.
I believe that you are responsible for your own happiness, nobody can ‘make’ you happy.
I think that “In fact…” is one of the most misused phrases in any language.
And lastly, I believe that saying ‘always’ or ‘never’ is very, VERY seldom accurate.
I agree with “Laughing,” life does not begin at conception, the biology of it simply says so. If we judge the end of life by when our hearts stop beating, shouldn’t we start life when our hearts START beating? Just an idea. I do however think it is sick and twisted that people do not think having an abortion at 6 months or so is not murder.
Obama was definitely not correct. Describing his decision as “based on science and ethical judgement” couldn’t be further from the truth. There is nothing ethical about embryos dying so that we have the *potential* to cure certain diseases. It’s definitely far from ethical. And it is as political as Bush’s decision to do the opposite. Don’t kid yourselves.
I think that thinking life doesn’t begin at conception is downright silly. The fact that you can sit here and argue this point is only because you weren’t aborted or harvested for embryonic cells. There’s nothing outlandish about the claim at all. What’s outlandish are the laughable attempts by some to arbitrarily determine on their own when they think “life” should begin.
Re: Bloomberg article today – advances in using skin cells. Bush is gone, people. Obama will stand or fail on his own. He is not the anti-Bush for goodness’ sake.
Laughing. If your life didn’t begin at conception, when did it begin? Aren’t you glad that your mother decided to let your life continue instead of discarding you as unwanted trash?
Gale. Abortion is tragic. First because women are in such a desperate position that abortion seems to be the best or only solution. And second because a human life is not given the opportunity to thrive.
I’ve often wondered how many great men and women who could have enriched our world and made it a better place to live had their lives snuffed out through abortion. If we don’t value people at their most immature and vulnerable state, how then can we value people as adults? Every life has meaning and every life has purpose. We who hold the power over those lives must accept our great responsibility to protect them and provide them the opportunity flourish.
While neither of these presents a very deep argument for either side. I would agree that “life” would begin at conception. It always comes down to how you define “life.” And at conception, you are diploid (two sets of chromosomes) and are differentiating/dividing (in other word growing), so in a biological sense your “life” began. But then again, unfertilized eggs are also living and die, yet no one sheds a tear.
I also do not like how people who argue against embryonic stem cell research always avoid or otherwise do not address the fact that “harvesting” a fetus does not mean that anyone is getting pregnant for the purpose of creating embryonic stem cells for use in research. The “harvesting” (which is a word that probably shouldn’t be used cause it leads to confusion) only occurs for fetuses that are aborted or plan to be aborted. I do not see the problem with letting that child’s gift of life be used to heal someone else instead of wasted.
That’s an excellent question. Although I doubt many atheists/agnostics will admit it, they do believe in an absolute truth. Otherwise their entire basis for describing good and evil, right and wrong doesn’t make any sense.
TOJ – Why? Because we-the-people now fund the public schools, including we-the-muslim, we-the-hindu, we-the-atheist, and we-the-humanist. What you refer as ‘religion once taught in school’ was actually ‘christianity that used to be pushed onto every child regardless of their own family beliefs’.
If you want your child to receive religious indoctrination in their education, send them to parochial school.
Hard to understand how we call what we’re searching for on Mars “life” even though microscopic, but we refuse to call what is conceived within us life.
[...] “Was President Obama right to reverse Bush’s stem cell policy?,” Andrea Cornell Sarvady and Shaunti Feldhahn, Atlanta Journal-Constitution (March 27, 2009) [...]
I have Marfan syndrome, Celiac Disease and Asperger. I have a brain aneurysm and a thoracic aortic aneurysm, and possible lung cancer.
I would rather die with a clear conscience than use an immoral medical treatment.
The ends do not justify the means. You cannot defeat one evil by recourse to another evil. When an issue is “morally complex,” that just shows what happens when you adopt an “ends justify the means” philosophy.
Pres. Obama’s decision was 99% political. The 1% non-political is because he believes like many that there is potential benefit from ESCR. To make the decision non-political, it would have been a thoughtful, fact filled presentation, and perhaps a little later in his term after he straightens out the economy, war on terror, education, cost of healthcare, …
I believe the only limitation on ESCR was a restriction on US Federal funds. Pres. Obama’s announcement should have included an assessment of all the progress in ESCR done around the world without US federal funds. It should have also included the results from work on the lines permitted within Pres. Bush’s limitations. Pres. Obama should have also included in his assessment how the Bush limitations have hindered research progress and how the US is falling behind as a result. However, he didn’t include any of this in his announcement. I don’t know if that is because there is no data to present. But I don’t think he was concerned about actual research results, I think he was simply paying a political debt and making a political statement.
Mara – a woman’s body is her own and she can, if she chooses, terminate a pregancy for ANY reason.
A pregnancy involves two bodies, two lives. Why would you believe that only one of those two bodies, two lives would have civil rights?
Mara – People should be free to do as they please (as long as it doesn’t harm the rest of us)
“Us” being the operative word. “them” or “IT” can be harmed at the whim of a woman, right?
Mara – but businesses and corporations need to be watched and regulated.
And who should be watching them? Our government? Our elected officials that are not professional business people, but the lowest form of human life: Politicians? Politicians should be watching my business? They should decide how much money I can make? Too bad some very wealthy limousine liberals haven’t been watched.
Mara – Because religion is so diverse and divisive, it belongs in the church not in public policy.
Why? And what has been the result of this stance over the past 25 years?
Mara – I believe that the Founders expected society to progress and built into the Constitution enough ambiguity to provide structure without restricting moral growth.
The Constitution as a living document, Huh? So you apparently forgot to chime in when others were saying that Bush was shredding the Constitution. He wasn’t shredding it, he was just letting it breath. But of course you hated Bush, so I guess the Constitution can only be alive if it is being driven by wise, kind people offering Hope and Change.
I don’t “get like this”. I’m like this every day that I need to deal with the double standards that liberals insist on. I’m like this every day when people like AW and you insist that churches are just as crime infested as slimy bars.
I think you are all good people, but I think you are indoctrinated. I think you are forbidden to think logically. I think you ignore logic and reason and any pointing out of historical parallels is strictly forbidden.
I don’t want to insult you. I like you and I like almost everyone here. But you avoid subjects that call your ridicules stances out. If I go back and find the exact wording to the porn stance (like I have already done for USinUK), what will your reaction be to a couple of hours of research? Will you even respond? I don’t think so.
When you consider the totality of their legislation/regulations, in the bigger scheme of things who was more “pro-life” President Bush vs. President Obama?
It’s amazing how calloused our world has become and how adamantly they hold to the bloody banner of abortion….It shows a disregard for life when many seem to embrace abortion as “the final solution” to one night stands, and then endorse the use of it’s “biproduct” for experimentation. Why not pursue Dr. Thomson’s breakthru in transforming the adult stem. Maybe it is pure greed on the part of researches that would find this additional step “cost prohibitive”….it’s just easier to take a dip into the bucket of aborted fetuses? I guess Hitler’s scientists justified his medical experimentation on what he deemed to be “sub-humans”. May God be merciful to us for arbitrarily determining when life begins and taking short cuts at the expense of the innocent human life.
We should definitely experiment on Embryos. Embryonic Stem cells have never worked while the stem cell research that Bush pushed, Placental stem cell research has saved thousands of lives. But there is no Hope or Change in the working science.
Definitely a good thing, just like the way all this Hope and Change is going to get us out of an unwanted war. Man, I’m glad we finally have an honest, smart person in the White House.
So many interesting points to counter. Michael at 10:02. To bookend life with a measureable identifier? Since we can sustain a life by artificial means and sometimes bring the person back to a healthy state, how about using brain function instead? I don’t know when we see measurable brain function for a fetus, but I am pretty sure it can be measured. And while I would not call it murder, I do think abortions after the second trimester are tragic. The tragedy is that some woman had to make that painful decision. It is never an easy decision regardless of what the anti-abortion fanatics want to claim.
To several in the ‘every life is sacred’ camp: I believe in reincarnation. I honestly think that if a future life was stopped so my cells might provide a cure or treatment for someone, I would consider that life well spent.
I read a very interesting opinion a few weeks ago in a column for faith-based opinions. The person was discussing where the idea of ‘a human being with full rights begins when an egg is fertilized’. The idea was propsed by some major Catholic convention (I forget which paper was cited) in the 1600’s I think. Maybe I can track it down later. I looked it up at the time I read the article. It did not have broad backing then and clearly was not based on a passage in the Bible. Most of the world considered life to begin at ‘quickening’, which was when the fetus could be felt moving by the mother. I would say that is quite a few weeks after conception.
JNo – What’s outlandish are the laughable attempts by some to arbitrarily determine on their own when they think “life” should begin.
and exactly do you think YOU’RE doing when you insist that ‘life’ begins at conception? You are being just as arbitrary as those who insist that ‘life’ begins at viability, or at birth.
Outside1 – If your life didn’t begin at conception, when did it begin?
and exactly *when* does ‘conception’ occur? When the sperm peirces the egg wall? When the chromosomes mix? When the first division of cells occurs? When the fertilized egg implants on the uterine wall?
Conception is a process not a particular instant in time.
I, personally, think that which makes us ‘human’ manifests when we take our first breath. So I have no problem with a few cells in a petri dish being manipulated to, hopefully, provide treatments and cures for deseases that kill or debilitate real, breathing, autonomous human beings. But that’s MY opinion, and it’s highly subjective.
There is a group of physicians, patients and other interested people working together to get treatment with adult stem cells legalized in the U.S. as it should be. Please ask your family and friends to sign up (”JOIN”), and get as many doctors to sign up as well. See The American Stem Cell Therapy Association site at
Godwin’s Law. Now would be a good time for you to read what Godwin’s Law actually said. It never discredited the comparisons, but just pointed out that a comparison to NAZIs will eventually be made during a political discussion. It really makes sense. Germany was taken over by a political mantra that gained control of a very active German Media and used class warfare and labor unions to turn the most educated and cultural country in the world into fascists. I personally think that every child should have at least a year of teaching about nothing but the History of the NAZI Party.
The lessons that Goebbels taught us can not be ignored, as much as the media controlling party in the US would have them ignored.
The lessons that Josef Mengele taught us cannot be forgotten as much as the party that insists that human experiments take place insist that those lessons are not relevant.
In times like these, I think that every TV network should be showing documentaries about the 1930s and the 1940s and go into great detail about the techniques the NAZIs used.
There are not many holocaust survivors left. The lessons they learned will be lost forever if we have such disdain for discussing what they went through. History is the ultimate teacher. When we conveniently exclude one of the darkest times in our history, we are destined to repeat that history.
Remember, Barry thinks it OK to kill babies as they are coming out, or if an abortion fails to kill the baby, to kill it after it has been “surgically removed”. SO when he get’s his Nationalized Health Care in place, what is to stop him from no longer wasting dollar allocations on people say “OVER 78?” and not wasting dollar allocations to children with Down Syndrome? Then what next? 78 becomes 75, 75 becomes 70, 70 becomes 65. Children with this or that ailment are detected in the womb, and terminated, not by the parents, or “potential parents” but by the state run health care system. It’s slipperly slope this socialism.
“Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns…First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.”
Excerpt from Nightmares of our Fathers:
“I remember seeing Barry sitting on Monks Beach up on the North Shore of Oureading the communist manifesto smokin’ weed….he likes his Ganja, and he would never share it…”
Liz, thanks for the 11:45 facts. I read something unrelated at lunch that described a 6 week old fetus as basically a tube about the size of a pea, with spinal column and blood system beginning to form, largely indistinguishable from other creatures at that stage. It is actually pretty interesting stuff.
A pregnancy involves two bodies, two lives. Why would you believe that only one of those two bodies, two lives would have civil rights?
1) no person should be forced to give up their health or well-being for the benefit of another.
2) when ‘life’ begins is completely subjective.
And who should be watching them? Our government? They should decide how much money I can make?
I don’t know where you came up with the conclusion that ‘regulated and watched’ equates to the government saying how much money you can make. But yes, I do think that certain business practices should be illegal and punishable by law. I also think that enforcing fair labor practices, enviromental safety, and trading practices is the purview of regulators as well.
Because religion is so diverse and divisive, it belongs in the church not in public policy.– Why?
Why?! Look at Iraq. Look at India. Look at Pakistan and the old Yugoslavia. Look at HISTORY! ANY state that elevates one religion over another, that uses religious tenets instead of the rule of law, that says to its people “This belief is good and all others are bad”, these states end up torn by violence, bereft of freedom of thought and action, crushed under totalitarian dictators, and rife with abuse and cruelty.
So you apparently forgot to chime in when others were saying that Bush was shredding the Constitution. He wasn’t shredding it, he was just letting it breath
There is indeed room for interpretation within the Constitution, but what Bush did was NOT interpretation. What HE did was violate the First and Fourth Amendments, co-opt the responsibilities of the Legislative branch, overstepped the power of his office, and used the tools of the State to intimidate dissent.
But you avoid subjects that call your ridicules stances out
When I do that, it’s usually because you have so misquoted and rephrased my opinions that it’d take *way* more effort to set the record straight than i want to put into a blogpost. And you seldom admit that you may have been mistaken in your understanding. For example, you’re STILL insisting that I did say that pornographers NEVER harmed children or exploited women…when what was said was probably something on the order of “mainstream pornography doesn’t feature underage girls or coerce women into posing…”
either way…I DO get tired of correcting your misquotes and deliberate mischaracterizations so…yes, I DO refuse to get into it sometimes…
We could hire teenage girls to come to our clinic, get knocked up by one of our “knockers”, hold the “Festus” in her womb for 6 weeks, then suck it our with a medical Hoover or Dirt Devil and harvest them thar stem cells! How much should we pay them! The time is right! Crisis mean Opportunity!
TOJ, Godwin’s Law says that the LONGER the thread the more likely the comparison to Hitler or Nazi’s becomes. My point was that the comparison came much EARLIER than usual.
As for the Hitler comparison itself, we’re far less likely to lose the lessons of the Holocaust through the ignoring of history than we are through trivializing it. Which we do by speciously labling ANY action we might find repugnant as “nazi-like” and those who participate in said actions as some sort of “Hitler”.
I only mentioned six weeks because it was described in the article I read. The ESCR process uses embryos far less formed than six weeks. Other than supply eggs, women are not a part of the process at all. Once implanted, “science” has no desire to retrieve those embryos and everyone involved hopes they make it to term.
What you SHOULD worry about is the day science figures out how to reliably create embryos without sperm cells. I tell you, man, your days are numbered. (ominous spacey music)
Mara, definitely without men. It requires a separate gene set to produce something other than a clone. But does that separate set really have to be a sperm cell? I’m just speculating because I sure don’t know the science. In reality, the research won’t become a viable substitution unless it is cost effective. I know people pay thousands for IVF so they can have their own baby and that sure isn’t cost effective when they could adopt instead. So who knows where that may lead?
TOJ,
be careful in your generalizations about the people of Germany in WWII. It was not a country of slobbering fascists as you seem to think. Goebbel didn’t have as much influence as the “documentaries” on the Discovery Channel might have you think. Most Germans thought he was a pompous ass and my most direct accouts, anyone with a brain in their head knew what an absolute evil the Nazi party was….
So that bisiness model won’t fly…Well then, in that case, I am against ESCR! And Nazis, and socialists, and especially Flying Spagetti Monsters theology! Oh, I am for partial birth birth.
*Because producing them does not require human ova, and because they are patient-specific stem cells that are less likely to be rejected by their recipients, they also have distinct scientific advantages. Indeed, on the day following President Obama’s announcement, an analysis in the New York Times noted that the embryonic stem cell research the president had touted “has been somewhat eclipsed by new advances.”*
As with most topics, people just don’t want to think about Barack HUSSEIN Obama being POLITICAL. I’m sorry, but if you think that executive order was ANYTHING BUT political, you are just naive. He is even more political than Clinton, and I never thought that was possible. If you are honest, you will have to admit that very little of what GW did was political. Unlike Clinton, Barack HUSSEIN Obama, and DICK CHENEY for that matter, GW actually has a moral compass. He for the most part made decisions based on his core beliefs. Something sadly lacking in Washington these days.
LOL! They do say that the Y is a defective “X” you know I’ve also read that all zygotes start out as female and don’t differentiate until the 10th week or thereabouts…
To make myself a little clearer, THE ONLY REASON for funding embryonic stem cell research RATHER THAN adult stem cell research and placenta stem cell research is to ONCE AGAIN promote ABORTION and devalue the life of babies.
Here’s an idea though, HOW ABOUT the Government NOT FUNDING ANY SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH. Even under President Bush there was NO PROHIBITION on the research, JUST NO FUNDING. Let scientists fund their own research. Give them the patents on their discoveries and let them profit from their WORK.
An alternative would be to not fund any research but then BUY the discoveries afterward.
JustaJew, if they weren’t “slobbering fascists” then what happened is far worse. They just killed all them people cuz it was fun? No, it’s becuase they are fundementally flawed and don’t have God. Without God, moral relatity beging to creep. That is what Obama and his liberal cronies are attempting to do our country.
The crux of the issue is this: Whether there is federal funding or not, those same embryos will be discarded. Fighting federal funding for embryonic stem cell research SAVES NO BABIES!
so why do you not like embryonic stem cell research? Because you save a baby? That is a false argument because you either use the embryo for scientific research, or you destroy the embryo. YOU DO NOT RESCUE THE EMBRYO.
Chuck, would you have the government stop funding research for ways to kill people, or just the stuff that might benefit people? Personally, I expect the goverenment to continue looking for ways to kill people whether they admit to it or not.
First, have you ever been in an office that was nothing but women? Have you ever dealt with a company that was nothing but women? There’s only one thing women hate more than men: other women. We will always be needed, if nothing else but to listen to the way the women at work are so unfair.
My interest in the German people started when I was growing up. The nice woman across the street was German and had been a member of the NAZI Party. She told me lots of stories about the good days when Germany was finally coming out of the throes of WWI and people were beginning to work again, under the NAZI government. She told me about the plays and the radio dramas where Jews were always made out to be the real villain. It was always the greedy Jew that was the problem, certainly not the good Socialist German Worker.
Jews did a lot of business in Northern Europe and the National Socialist Workers Party was made up of people that supported the party that was against the ownership of that business. That class warfare . . . that hate was reinforced by a steady stream of propaganda films, plays and radio dramas that always had one central theme: Jews are bad. Class warfare is the easiest message to get across. Pol Pot used it. it is the easiest route to take. There will always be more poor people than rich. Jews controlled a lot of commerce. Commerce wasn’t very kind to a Socialist Worker so out with the pitch forks and the loading up of buses to threaten and intimidate the state dictated bad people . . . no wait. That was AIG. Totally different situation . . . I’m sure.
Are those tactics still being used by Hollywood to indoctrinate another educated and cultured populace? I think that they are, but that is up for you to decide on your own.
Goebbels may have been disliked, but the science he mastered is still being used and was used by the NAZIs to indoctrinate a populace.
But you need to be careful about what you are taught about the German people. If the German people knew what an absolute evil the NAZIs were, why did they send their sons to die for the Third Reich? Why were old men and young boys willing to use pitch forks and clubs to fight tanks to defend the Fuhrer?
I didn’t learn what i know about the Germans from a Discovery Channel Documentary. I learned a lot from personally knowing a NAZI. I learned a lot more from a thesis I wrote on Goebbels. And I have studied almost everything he had written.
I know that I am not going to be able to change anyone’s minds about anything. But at least we are talking about what the Germans did at this incredibly;y important time in our history. Mara claimed that using the lessons that NAZIs taught us trivialize the holocaust. I just can’t imagine that anyone would think that what is happening to our country and it’s economic standards is trivial. If ever before we needed to look at history as our teacher, now is the time.
Gale, National Defense is a constitutional DUTY of the federal government. While I think that we probably have enough ways to kill people, AT LEAST there is a constitutional REASON for funding that kind of research. No such constitutional authority exists for funding other types of research.
I often wonder how many rapists, murderers and genocidal maniacs have never entered this world because they were aborted.
It goes both ways. And why are people so presumptuous to assume that “god” thinks abortion is wrong? Is it not part of “his plan”? Think about it, believers. Think hard.
Why don’t you hold one, Gandalf? Go ahead and have a little memorial service for every one, if you feel so inclined. It’s a free country.
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That’s very noble of you. I wish all the anti-science, anti “immoral medical treatment” folks felt the same.
Personally, I believe that if someone wants to oppose research on embryonic stem cells, then they also oppose all breakthroughs made with these cells, and all treatments. You voluntarily give up any right to any treatment that research might provide you in the future. Does that sound fair?
I also believe Christians should not be allowed to avail themselves of fertility treatments. If “god” wanted you to reproduce, he’d have made it possible the “normal way,” no?
Sie wissen nichts über meine Mutter, so hören Sie auf, ihre Namen zu nennen. Das Fernbleiben vom sozialistischen Schaum wie sich selbst wird kein Problem für mich sein.
[...] Journal Cardium reports on applicability of Corgentin to stem cell therapies. Rif.: PR Newswire Was President Obama right to reverse Bush’s stem cell policy ? Rif.: [...]
Fact – a huge number of embryos from fertility treatments are destroyed each year.
Fact – despite the claims of religious conservatives that there are, in fact, “homes” for these embryos – by homes, I mean not only wombs to carry these embryos to term but willing adopters to take in the babies once they’ve been gestated, there is zero support to suggest that this is, in fact, true.
Conclusion – given the above FACTS, the best benefit to mankind is to use these embryos that would otherwise be destroyed to research medical treatments that could cure disease.
FALLACY – Suggesting that because embryonic stem cell research has yet to produce a cure that it never will is simply false. Not only is this research in its nascent stages, but funding has been in short supply. This assumption is tantamount to suggesting that Jonas Salk, prior to his discovery of a vaccine for Polio, would NEVER discover a vaccine for polio simply because he had failed at the time to do so.
Fact: For every dollar that is spent on trying to make embryonic stem cells work, that same dollar is what has been thrown away. That same dollar could have been spent researching workable solutions. To equate Salk’s discovery is nonsense. I would equate someone researching blood letting. It has never worked and there are now other alternatives that do work, so why do we keep throwing money at a non-solution? It’s simple, It’s political
Placental and cord stem cells have all the potential of embryonic stem cells and they actually work and have worked for several years. The big difference is simple: Embryonic stem cells: The baby dies (or is never allowed to live). Placental and cord stem cells: The baby lives.
Personally, as long as embryos are not being created for the research (see Mengele, Josef), I couldn’t care less unless it is my tax dollar being spent. But of course my tax dollar will be spent for this and every other power grab that the democratic Congress can take.
It’s not nonsense, and it was a metaphor, not a specific comparison. To suggest that because discoveries have yet to be made that they will never be made is, simply put, flawed logic. If anything, blood letting is a far worse example. There is no scientific merit behind blood letting – merely superstition about humour, not to mention that the idea of scientific inquiry didn’t even exist when blood letting was a common practice. There IS a scientific basis for embryonic stem cell research, as one can easily discover by perusing the literature.
As for your own “fact”, that’s also poor logic, given the “just because it hasn’t happened yet means it never will” argument. Adult/placental stem cell research represents one stream of research, which is separate from embryonic research. One creates a false dilemma when one suggests that dollars must be given to one, rather than the other, in order to achieve results, or that dollars spent on one, rather than the other, are wasted. If stream B takes longer to come to fruition than stream A, then that investment is not wasted, merely deferred.
And the Mengele reference…you should above that sort of thing. Mengele experimented on living, sentient human beings. The medical techniques used to isolate embryos didn’t even exist during Mengele’s experiments – they didn’t become truly viable, one might argue, until the first embryo was successfully implanted in the late 70s. To equate the two is logically and intellectually dishonest, at best.
The big difference – in embryonic research there is no baby to live or die. There is a cell cluster that would otherwise be tossed in an incinerator. Pardon me if that’s a no-brainer for me.
Embryonic stem cells might work some day. If it would work, it would offer more options than other stem cell research. The problem is that while embryonic stem cell research was restricted in the US by a lack of tax payer money, it was researched heavily in some of the most scientifically advanced countries in the world. And the results? Nothing. Not one case has been tried that didn’t result in the stem cells becoming cancerous.
However, Placental stem cells, has CURED thousands. IS CURING thousands, but strangely enough, if you don’t know where to look, you will never see the coverage. Why do you think that is, J-Tex? Do you think that politics is not involved?
If we can use embryos that are not manufactured for that specific research, I say, sure, continue throwing money down the hole. But let’s concentrate on funding a science that is CURRENTLY SAVING LIVES. The kid with Ms doesn’t care about embryonic stem cells. They won’t help him. Placental stem cells will.
We have no say in our government and popular ideas that are touted in a very liberal leaning media are the ones that get the money. So you will win just like Harry Reid is getting his train to Disneyland. So instead of supporting a science that is working, our tax dollars are being thrown at something to satisfy a voting block.
A great way to do this would be to invest all the money into all stem cell research and hopefully, the advances in placental stem cells would help in the research with embryonic, but that’s not how liberals work. It is your way or the highway. NO money from the government that supports a working science, but all the money in the world for the Pro-Choice voting block. If you don’t think it is all about politics, you haven’t been paying attention.
As far as Mengele, you need to pick up a book before you lecture others. Mengele was known for his experiments on humans, but that was not his central mantra. He wanted to breed a race of humans for nothing more than spare parts. Have you heard of his research into twins? it was all about genetics and what parts could be used by who. And his problem is still the problem with stem cells. It takes a genetic link in order for the stem cells to work, just like it takes a a genetic link for organ transplants. It doesn’t always take a relative, but it does always take a related genetic structure.
As far as the “cell cluster” and the “zigote” and any other term you might have to discredit the value of another person, keep it to yourself. The problem with people like Mengele is that they had that same penchant for devaluing the lives of others to justify his mantra. That is disgusting to me. Maybe it’s because i have done extensive reading about the NAZIs and the central theme of almost every horrible thing they did started with the devaluing of the lives of others. That is why I would like for NAZI Indoctrination Styles and NAZI Viewpoints be a required subject in every single public school in the world. History is screaming at us to pay attention to the sins of the past, but some groups think of excuse after excuse why their lessons should not be learned. It devalues the holocaust, it is the Godwin rule: there are a thousand made up reasons why we should not pay attention to what the Germans did. Why do you think that a specific political stance here in the US wuld have such disdain for looking at history as a teacher?
I think Obama was wrong to do it, but my reasons are totally different from everyone else’s here.
I think it was wrong, because he should have gotten Congress to make it a law instead of an executive order. That way, Congressional Democrats get to be clear about where they stand on this in a way that separates them from Republicans AND Obama gets what he wants out of it.
I think it was a missed political opportunity. Had there not been so many other bigger issues to worry about, this is how it probably should have happened, but I guess people were busy with other things.
I assure you, Jack, that I have picked up many books. The reason that your Mengele reference is not really germane to this, or any other discussion, is that its intent was to introduce an emotional element into an otherwise rational discussion. It’s a classic association fallacy, sometimes referred to tongue-in-cheek as “reductio ad Nazium”. We all know that Hitler was bad. Mengele was bad. The Nazis were bad. So, associating any of the above with a particular topic is an attempt to suggest that said topic is inherently bad without having to truly delve into the issue.
The ethical issues involved with stem cell research are a constant source of discussion, as are ethical issues with any sort of research. I’m just a social scientist, in training if you will, and I have to not only maintain a national certification in research ethics but I have to run any proposed research through an Institutional Review Board, even if it just involves asking a people probing questions. To suggest that such rigor would not be applied to natural scientific research, particularly natural scientific research of such a sensitive nature, is to completely ignore the modern day research environment. I don’t think you will find a single scientist who would approve of breeding up embryos for the purposes of body replacement. The ethical considerations there are strongly defined. Your suggestion that Mengele’s atrocities would somehow become the norm is unwarranted and unsubstantiated.
As to your other point, you continue to create the false dilemma of research streams. Funding both adult/placental/cord stem cell research AND embryonic research simply increases the chances of viable cures resulting from them. There is no “my way or the highway” limitation here – no one is barring funding from the alternative stream, or suggesting that such streams be halted in favor of embryonic research. I’m not sure why you’re suggesting that such limitations exist. And, as far as I can tell, no one in the scientific community suggests that placental/adult/cord stem cell research ISN’T effective – they acknowledge its successes as much as they acknowledge the success of any research.
Finally, you may impugn my respect for life all you will. If using scientific terminology offends you, then perhaps this sort of discussion is not for you. I am inclined to overlook your oblique attempt to compare me, and frankly anyone who doesn’t agree with you, to Mengele, but others may not be so forgiving. You have no right, sir, to suggest that, based on a limited conversation, that I am operating by some “mantra” to devalue human life.
Andy says, “To be fair, adult stem cells are invaluable in providing blood-replacement treatment. Yet they just don’t provide all the answers — if they did, why would scientists seek out the use of embryonic stem cells? Do we think they have some nefarious, ulterior motive?”
Funny you should ask — actually I DO SUSPECT some nefarious, ulterior, ego-boosting, god-complex motive on the part of the ’scientists’ who still want to experiments with embryonic stem cells. After so many years of research and comparisons in OTHER COUNTRIES, which have shown that adult stem cells are much more effective at treatments than embryonic stem cells, many scientists have come out and said that the embryonic stem cell solution is too unreliable, difficult to match with patients, and often times discarded as failures. But though an occasional article may bring that out, it seems to fall on deaf ears, and the lobbying continues. Almost, as tho’ the point is to win the argument rather than to save lives.
If that’s not a nefarious ulterior motive, what is?
TOJ – Mara claimed that using the lessons that NAZIs taught us trivialize the holocaust
talk about mis-statment!! What I actually said was that the Holocaust is trivialized by “speciously labling ANY action we might find repugnant as “nazi-like” and those who participate in said actions as some sort of “Hitler”.”
You talk about all this that you’ve done, and read, and written about etc etc etc yet you can’t seem to accurately paraphrase a simple blog post! It’s annoying when you accuse people of saying something that, on any reasonable contextual reading, is NOT what was said.
But I will let the panel decide whether I said ‘likening the Holocaust to anything and everything we find abhorrent ends up trivializing the horrors of Auschwitz’ or if, as you accused, that ‘being aware of the things we learned about Nazi’s trivializes the holocaust’.
Of course life begins at conception, and science proves it. Look at the MRI. There are no limbs to be added. A child is there, just at an early stage of development. It’s unequivocal that is life at its earliest form. The catch line of the article is “embryonic cells SEEM TO PROMISE NEAR MIRACULOUS…” What hyperbole! To date, embryonic research has yielded ZERO results. 150 years ago, Darwin’s theory seemed to hold GREAT promise, yet NOT A SINGLE EXAMPLE OF MACRO EVOLUTION HAS EVER been observed in the fossil record. NOT ONE! Billions of fossils. Not one supports it! How long do you keep pursuing the theory without success before acknowledging it’s a bad theory? Princeton professor and Darwinist Peter Singer asserts “the life of a newborn is of less value than the life of a pig”. He believes parents should have the “right” to kill their newborn up until 28 days of age. Why stop there? Why not 28 weeks? Or 28 months? or 28 years? In Holland more than 6000 babies were euthanized in accordance with Singer’s theory. How does one not connect infanticide to the Holocaust? In fact, German philosophers used the same Nietzchian philosophy to eliminate the “weaker” race. Hitler claimed they “…have not the right to exist”. That’s what the Right to Life community is stating: the right of human life supercedes the right of a person to choose.
The author of this article needs do some homework. Adult stem cells do in deed have the same pluripotent properties to be changed into other forms of cells. Adult stem cells are already treating patients in many ways right now. Embryonic stems cells have the negative effect of turning into tumors. Those are the facts. Why don’t you have a reporter report on them?
I would think the question should be: if new medical discoveries are made with embryonic stem cells–would you go for treatment or would you refrain from treatment based upon your beliefs.
The second question: if the cost be far more than conventional medicines will insurance companies be able to not cover said treatments. If the government actually gets involved in citizen health care would state budgets include experimental services–or would there be limitations (just senators can apply) or would states opt out of experimental medical treatments because of costs.
Third question would be what if there is no breakthrough. People want breakthroughs in medicine but they are never a sure bet–these scientists are well tutored medical professionals and bandy words like–promising–hope–potential– instead of actually saying–we have successfully done nothing yet.
Last and final question: will advertisers sell ads on TV directed at women to sell their embryos (like gold jewelry) can some wing-tipped entrepreneur open a chain of placenta collection clinics?
There are no atheists/agnostics in combat zones….When their lives are threatened,or when a loved one is facing possible death, this groups joins the believers…….believe me.
“So instead of supporting a science that is working, our tax dollars are being thrown at something to satisfy a voting block.”
Sounds like a standard definition of politics, TOJ. Our elected officials have one overriding priority, to be reelected. The funding for scientific research is a drop in the national budget. We want research here in America to keep our best minds here in America. We fund research into areas that show possibility because we don’t know at the start which area will produce new information. And sometimes, the information feeds and entirely different area. We don’t insist that research produce a product. That notion stiffles the nature of research.
No one is calling you Mengele. And aaparently, no you haven’t picked up a book. Mengele’s known atrocities involved torturing people. I have repeatedly said that I was referring to his genetic research. Calm down and read, will you?
And BTW, If you can’t discuss historical parallels because they are too emotional for you, perhaps posting on a political forum is not for you.
And no one is restricting research into placental stem cells just like no one restricted embryonic stem cells. They just didn’t pay for it with tax payer money, so I guess to you, what you guys have been whining for for 8 years was not really a problem, huh? I would like to see my TAX dollars spent on a working science. Too much to ask?
Mara – No one called anyone any sort of Hitler. As I have said, I will continue to make comparisons with what is happening to our country with sins of the past. Right now, the Democratic Party is practically mirroring the actions of the NAZIs during the mid 1930s. That’s a fact. Obama fired the head of GM. Let me say that again: OBAMA FIRED THE HEAD OF GM. And you are worried that I am calling others Hitler.
If you would actually read what I write instead of looking for reasons to go emotional, perhaps you might see my point.
There are already placental collection companies that freeze the stem cells until they are needed. Of course they only work with specific family members. Look up Life Bank USA. They have been curing people for several years now.
But of course you have complete idiots like the one who call’s it’s self Save Us From the Religious Nuts who claims that human cells can’t be frozen. Imagine, that idiot votes. That would explain the mess we are in.
I’d like to see more research into all of it, not just the political correct part. And I would also like to see the truth told by the media. Placental stem cell research has been completely privately funded, but it is working like a charm.
Obama moved to impose sweeping and hard-nosed restructuring measures on GM and Chrysler, including the ouster of GM’s Wagoner.
My God, What have we done? Elected officials firing corporate heads. Hope? Change? My God. I hope the Obama supporters are satisfied. Is this what you voted for?
Has anyone heard of this? This is a very large part of the medical approach listed in the stimulus bill. HMOs started doing it during the Clinton administration. Now it is becoming part of the law.
I hope all you guys are valuable enough to the government for them to allow life saving medical treatment. Is this nonsense? Did you ever imagine that the president would fire the head of GM?
Now I have to read that article to get the story straight. I suspect it was the GM BOD that forced the CEO out in order to receive gov bailout funds. Personally, I think it would be better to let GM fail first and force restructuring. This just puts the second in command on the hot seat and gives people a scapegoat. We will see this CEO go to another company he can mismanage out of the public eye for a while.
As for life-saving medical anaysis; While I am sure if I or my loved one was in that position, I would want no expense spared. But prgmatically speaking, if a very expensive treatment would only sustain life for a brief period without offering any real quality of life improvement, is that expense justified? Many people make that decision for themselves when it is their own lives and their own families footing the expense. Continue to live for a few months with no hope of cure at the cost of everything I and my family owns, dooming my survivors to bankruptcy? Or die sooner with what little dignity I can muster. It is a tough decision I hope I will not have to make. It is easy to feel outrage when the decider is big government or big insureance company. But really, what would you decide? Spend a million on someone who will soon die even with the treatment, or spend the same million on someone with a reasonable hope of survival?
I also read the article. The BOD was told to fire the guy or lose their funding. Call it what you want but the Federal Government just fired the head of GM.
Yes, we all make decisions about the cost of treatment. I’m sure you have had to deal with a government bureaucracy. The maddening thing about this is the fact that to the people you are dealing with, you have no face, you have no life: you are a number on a piece of paper. Do you really want the unhappy bureaucrat that hates their life, setting in a drab corner and had a fight that morning with their spouse to decide whether you live or die?
I somehow doubt a single individual would be tasked with the analysis or decision on life and death treatment. Besides, even in countries with full gov health care, people are not restricted from seeking treatment privately if the government deems the treatment not cost effective. I remember hearing about health care in the Netherlands, I think it was there. They think Americans are a bunch of wusses that we cannot deal with even simple illness without several prescriptions. On the other hand, doctors there make house calls.
I wonder why the heads of the Unions that forced the US car companies into making really crappy cars and charging a fortune for them have not been even mentioned in all of this? (I don’t really wonder)
It’s like the Democrats are becoming a Socialist Party. Like a Union or a Workers Socialist Party. Wait, aren’t they the party in charge, making them a Nationalist Party?
I guess that we shouldn’t talk about this. It’s waaaaay too emotional for some people.
Why would you doubt that only one or two people would make those decisions? We are talking specific offices making these decisions for millions of people. Are you telling me that you think that everyone will get a trial?
Gale, I don’t know how old you are, but if you are over 40, so far you have been left out of any help the government is offering. it is all about children for two reasons. One: it makes the dems look like they care. Two, it is much much cheaper. Few kids get sick. We will all get sick and die if we aren’t killed in an accident. Have you heard anything addressing that by this administration?
Obama is screwing up, BIG TIME. He is allowing a power hungry Congress to steer him into supporting things that will give those Congress People an incredible amount of power. And most will be there long after Obama has been thrown under the Bus.
Personally, for the sake of our country, I think Obama should be impeached as soon as possible, but the only problem with that is that Joe Biden would be president.
The Democrats will have to be allowed to continue to destroy our economy for two years until we can legally act and by vote, send them home.
The biggest assistance to people over 40 is possibly prescription assistance. I am quite certain my own grandmother would have lived longer if she had not needed to decide between food and medicine. I am not crazy about the focus of children’s healthcare because I think they are going about it in the wrong way. It just encourages people to lay all the responsibility on the govermnent, when what really needs to happen is a parent home with a kid for a day. I would put in many more neighborhood clinics and allow nurse practicioners to treat many of the issues for children and adults and get those issues out of hospital ERs. That change, along with single payer insurance and electronic medical records, would also benefit many older Americans as well. I don’t really need a doctor most of the time, and I am rarely ill. But even the elders in my close aquaintance would benefit with this change. Let them stop by a nearby clinic for routine screening.
Without a way to keep simple cases out of the ER, the plan won’t help much. We cannot funnel well child visits through local ERs. We should not funnel childhood sniffles though ER. That only clogs the system.
When a company needs billions in handout cash from the government for operations–is it still a private corporation? Me thinks if you grab the goodie bag–you gotta pay the piper–
TOJ–when have elected union officials actually listened to members? Are union memberships effective for its members beyond influencing political candidates & creating lobbyists?
TOJ, regarding cost/benefit of healthcare. Maybe we need Bruno’s input on thise since he seems more current in the healthcare industry. However, illnesses come in categories. Every illness is not life threatening. I am sure you agree that far. Our current insurance based healthcare does the same thing. Personal example: I need a bite guard or I will grind my teeth to nubs at night. My insurance will not pay for it because I am an adult and they only pay for child dental appliances. I can and did pay for it myself. An individual person at the insurance company did not make that decision. It was a policy based on the category. Simple issue, simple policy.
But suppose I have cancer that is rapidly spreading. A new drug that costs $10k a dose, MIGHT, keep me alive an extra year, but I will be sick as a dog while I take it and probably have to be hospitalized much of the time. If I don’t have the new drug, I will probably live six months, needing increasing pain medication and hospitalization near the end of that time. I do not believe a single person will make the decision for my treatment. I believe a decision of that magnitude would be a group decision made by people who understand what they are doing; not an overworked clerk. Do you honestly believe otherwise? And do you honestly believe it is any worse than what we have now?
the Unions that forced the US car companies into making really crappy cars and charging a fortune for them
The Unions control the artists, the engineers, and designers who come up with the concepts!? And the engineers and developers that make the concept work? And decide which cars get built and which ones never get off the drawing board?!! Gee…I wonder if Buck and Joe working on the production line actually realize that they, and their buddies a’course, were the ones who decided that minivans and Hummers were the way to go, to the exclusion of everything else. I bet they were the ones who nixed R&D on electric cars (allowing Toyota to become the innovation leaders). And I’m positive that the only way the Dodge Nitro, Chrysler Sebring, or Chevy Uplander made it into production was because the Union guys absolutely LOVED ‘em!.
(/snark)
————————————————————————
Right now, the Democratic Party is practically mirroring the actions of the NAZIs during the mid 1930s
two words…Verschärfte Vernehmung. If you won’t repudiate ‘enhanced interrogation’ you’ve got no room to go around accusing others of acting like Nazi’s.
Factually speaking, there’s less linking Obama and the Democrats to socialism than there is joining Bush and the Republicans to fascism.
————————————————————————
If you would actually read what I write instead of looking for reasons to go emotional, perhaps you might see my point
“You’re BLACK!”, said the Pot.
“No, YOU’RE black!” said the Kettle.
“Huh-UH!”, said the Pot, “You are!”
“No, YOU are!”, Kettle said.
“No I’m not! You are!” Pot screamed.
ad nauseum…
————————————————————————
I guess that we shouldn’t talk about this. It’s waaaaay too emotional for some people.
I definitely agree with the problems of the ER. Horrible situation.
Our healthcare system definitely needs some changes. But Gale, I just do not trust our government. Our city government is a joke. Our state government officials seem like they let them out of the state hospital long enough to pass laws to spend the lottery money and do I really need to say anything about what is going on is Washington?
i think of all the things that have scared me the most was the AIG bus trips to intimidate the families of the executives at AIG. That is pure fascism. And it was encouraged by a liberally controlled media and sponsored by labor unions. It was a democrat effort from the get go and it all boils down to them covering their slimy butts because they KNEW what was in the bills that they wrote.
Think about that: Politicians that are so corrupt, so slimy that they sic mobs on private citizens to cover their own incompetence. And these same people would be in charge of the medical industry? No thanks.
Of course I really have no say. None of us really do.
I need to get back to work, and pardon my bitterness today. One of my best friends who was a huge Obama supporter landed a job in Costa Rica last week. Another close friend that also voted for Obama is selling her house and taking the money and putting it into gold and foreign currency exchange. These are two of the smartest people i know and one is bailing and the other is taking a huge lose on a million dollar house because she believes that this is only the beginning of our problems.
For the first time in years, I am looking at the end of my work. What that means to an independent contractor is once I finish up what I am doing, I am out of work. I have bid on four projects so far this year and lost all but one to a minority owned business. The last one, the minority business that won the bid had the grand scope of experience of producing one music video that never aired and has video taped their church service for two years. I have produced television for almost every network in the world for 30 years and I underbid the other company $6,000, but lost the bid. All three of the lost bids to minority owned companies were for government contracts.
Can you please explain to me why I should support or trust this government in any way?
So you equate what the NAZIs did to their prisoners to our intell agencies depriving POWs of sleep and making them uncomfortable. But you don’t equste what they are doing now in the way of taking over major US companies and using the media to support their crimes as not what the NAZIs did. I see.
You are just not at the point that I can argue with you. You have to have at least a small amount of logic before my argument would work and apparently, that is missing from your thought process.
From Bllomberg as the DOW falls more than 300 points in one day:
In a decision that surprised lawmakers and analysts with its toughness, Obama said at the White House today “we cannot continue to excuse poor decisions” and “cannot make the survival of our auto industry dependent on an unending flow of taxpayer dollars.” He said the administration is also prepared to use bankruptcy to “help them restructure quickly and emerge stronger.”
We cannot continue to excuse poor decisions? And this is from THIS White House and THIS Congress? Holy Christ. What have we done?
YES TOJ! That place in Cuba was worst than, well worst than, SEAR Training! No that’s not even true, our solders, airman, sailors and marines go through more rigourous training excercises than what those terrorist went through. American is too weak to get the job done anymore. NO MORE TORTURE? What does Barry call those assine speaches he keeps giving? And pictures of his wife is pure torture! That Michelle is one Fugly woman!
Hey kids! Long time, no chat and I’m just running through today on my way to workout Boot Camp. Skimming through the responses shows the same round-about discussions as always that none of us will even likely solve. Theologans and scientists have studied the question of when life begins for hundreds of years and we still don’t have an answer. I don’t have it either.
I do have a healthy skepticism of the right to life folks arguing about the use of embryos that will end up as medical waste. What do you propose we do with them? Keep the little ‘humans’ frozen for ever and ever and ever? And this is good or preserves life, how exactly? If abortion is bad then is invitro infertilization also bad because it creates these little frozen balls of life as a byproduct? If abortion is playing God, isn’t IVF the same thing?
I try to be open minded, but where anyone got that she was beautiful is a mystery to me. I know a lot of extremely hot Black women. She ain’t one of them. She’s probably a good person
No comments Add your comment
Stan
March 12th, 2009
9:54 am
Yes, often animal rescue groups do go too far. That said they also have that right. They are mostly run by volunteers and they are private orgs.
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lovelyliz
March 13th, 2009
9:21 am
These kiddie pagents are immoral. There I’ve said it. If I could write the law, I would certainly make them illegal certainly for anyone under the age of 16, but since I don’t and it’s legal, go ahead and spend that $$$$$ not on your daughter’s college fund, tutoring, etc.
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Gale
March 13th, 2009
9:47 am
I don’t approve of any serious competition for children under about age ten, and nothing at all under eight. Kids need unstructured play before they are regimented into teams and rigid rules. Child beauty pagents are awful. Little girls should not be made up miniature women with styled hair and makeup.
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barbie
March 13th, 2009
10:01 am
Thank you andy!
Our girls deserve better! There is a huge difference between spending time pursuing a sport or interest, and having a young girl’s physical appearance altered to meet a limiting stereotype.
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Eleanor Rigby
March 13th, 2009
10:23 am
Painting young girls up like that is deeply disturbing and if you can’t see what the problem is, I’m concerned about you. I would have no problem with a child beauty pageant if it celebrated the true beauty of a child. Children are beautiful the way they are. Let them look and act like children.
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USinUK
March 13th, 2009
10:31 am
Eleanor Rigby – hear hear!! can anyone forget the pictures of JBR with more war paint on her than … well … than most 16 year olds wear!! and the highlights, fake tan, etc … criminey, you want to talk about the sexualization of kids, let’s start with the “pagaent culture” …. eesh.
And, Shaunti, if you don’t understand the difference between cheerleading (very athletic, where you are actually judged on your abilities) and “pagaents” where you’re judged on your appearance, the more plastic, the better, then there’s just no hope for you.
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Mara
March 13th, 2009
10:47 am
I’m with USinUK. There’s a **big** difference between a competition based on skills/abilities and one that is based on how one looks and dresses.
What concerns me is that these pageant moms seem to always say “but she loooooves doing pageants”. Excuse me, but I’m forced to wonder if the child loves the *pageant* or just the attention and approval they get from their parent when they do well. If the child is only doing pageants because they’re afraid their parent won’t love them as much if they don’t, I certainly think that it *might* border on EMOTIONAL abuse. Maybe not what we commonly consider child abuse, but a pretty ugly situation for the kid anyway.
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kayli
March 13th, 2009
10:48 am
that is totally right it is a waste of time,money,ect.
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USinUK
March 13th, 2009
10:53 am
btw – WAY TO GO, AJC!! I’m digging the new layout and the instant (!!!) posting
nice one (and easy on the eyes)
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The Other Jack
March 13th, 2009
10:55 am
Down on the kiddie beauty pageants.
But my monster cat is begging to be a runway model. I don’t want to limit his life, but I don’t want him to be exposed to the seedy underworld of cat sex and cat nip.
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Mara
March 13th, 2009
10:56 am
I just wish they’d fix the link so it’d bring you straight here instead of at the old page…
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American Mommy
March 13th, 2009
11:00 am
IMO: If your daughter is naturally beautiful, it’s best to focus on developing her other qualities. If she did not emerge so naturally beautiful, the same applies. Leave the shallow sh– for the men with no depth to obsess over. It’s not like that will ever change, but I’m certainly not going sacrifice the healthy development or well-being of a child to the unnatural expectations of the shallow minded.
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USinUK
March 13th, 2009
11:05 am
TOJ – great. now I have an image of your cat that’s somewhere between a lynx and Kate Moss (complete with snorting lines of cat nip in hip London bars)
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The Other Jack
March 13th, 2009
11:15 am
I don’t know what is up with him. He met a girl cat from down the street and now I’m getting post cards from Milan, London, New York. Paris. He came by the other day and I’m pretty sure he was using. The smell of catnip was all over his luggage.
Sob, snort. I don’t know what to do. This may be in his genes, but he didn’t get it from me!!!!
BTW. The cats to work cartoon was hysterical.
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The Other Jack
March 13th, 2009
11:17 am
Hmm. Just posted and it didn’t post. Will iy post this?
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The Other Jack
March 13th, 2009
11:18 am
There it is. Sometimes it may take a minute or two, but overall, great improvement.
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Mara
March 13th, 2009
11:21 am
m’kay…the old ‘asterisk-word-asterisk’ doesn’t work, let’s see if aboutthis… italics and bold
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Mara
March 13th, 2009
11:22 am
HA! (tapping fingers together like Monty Burns) exxxxxcelllant!
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USinUK
March 13th, 2009
11:27 am
TOJ – “Sob, snort. I don’t know what to do. This may be in his genes, but he didn’t get it from me!!!!”
oooo … I think I see a whole new season of “Intervention”!! “Monster cat, we’re worried about you.” “It’s not a problem – I can kick the nip anytime I want”
and, yes, Rhymes with Orange knows cats.
Okay, Mara – how did you do the italics???
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Mara
March 13th, 2009
11:52 am
to italicize…I’m going to put a dash between each step so remember to remove them to make it work…
word or phrase
and no spaces between keystrokes.
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The Other Jack
March 13th, 2009
12:11 pm
USinUK
The old woman that owns the house I want to buy is convinced that it is still 2006. She just backed out of the deal. I found out yesterday that the heating part of the heating and air was about to fail. I told her but didn’t renegotiate, but now she is backing out. She said that she really needs more money for it. Well good luck with that, Granny. I’m the only offer she has gotten in the 9 months it’s been on the block.
i like the location, but i could go to auctions and buy 5 houses like this one for what I am paying. The deal is falling apart. I may be living in a friend’s spare room if I don’t find something, fast. Is anything simple?
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Mara
March 13th, 2009
12:15 pm
ah bull hockey. Okay I’ll type it out by word. I will try to put the character in parenthesis, but it may not go through…
‘Less-than arrow’(). Type in the word or phrase you want to italicize and then the ‘less-than’ arrow again ().
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SpaceyG
March 13th, 2009
12:17 pm
Just what the world needs… even more fake sh*t. But I suppose pageant life is good for keeping relentlessly uncool losers and their hideous, creepy, perverted loser-parents, all off to one side. Together. They’ll be easier for the gulag round-up that way.
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Mara
March 13th, 2009
12:19 pm
sigh
okay this is getting annoying. “less-than arrow” + “small case i” + “greater-than arrow” + word or phrase + “less-than arrow” + “back slash” + “lower case i” + “greater-than arrow” = italics
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USinUK
March 13th, 2009
12:24 pm
raucous applause
well done, Mara! points for persistence
TOJ – “The deal is falling apart. I may be living in a friend’s spare room if I don’t find something, fast. Is anything simple?”
very few things worth having are simple – BUT, you’ll find the place you’re supposed to be – in a market like this one, you’ll find your perfect house and it’ll be SO much more affordable than it would have been 3 years ago!!
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USinUK
March 13th, 2009
12:24 pm
shoot. italics overkill.
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Bruno
March 13th, 2009
12:32 pm
“There’s a big difference between a competition based on skills/abilities and one based on how one looks and dresses”.
I agree with all of you that “beauty pageants” are, at the minimum, borderline strange, especially for children. At the same time, what say all of you regarding the “beauty pageant of life”??? There is no doubt in my mind that attractive women (and men) have far more opportunities presented to them, both professionally and most definitely romantically. I believe that there is likely more pressure on women to appear beautiful, hence the multi-billion dollar cosmetics industry.
One of the things I love about my GF is that she doesn’t wear any makeup at all.
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Bruno
March 13th, 2009
12:43 pm
One last plea to my blog buddies: Buy some stocks while they are still so undervalued. I’m becoming more and more convinced that the market has hit bottom and will only go up from here, despite every effort from Obama and the Democrats to permanently ruin our economy.
Question for the Libs: Are all of you still so high on Obama and the Democratic leadership?? After less than two months, I think Obama is definitely in the running for “Worst President Ever”. I’m also getting more than a little sick of the #1 hypocrite of all time, Nancy Pelosi. She made a big point of castigating the various company executives for flying around in private jets while she does the same thing, all on my dime.
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Mara
March 13th, 2009
12:48 pm
oooohhhhh emoticons work too?!! LOL!
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USinUK
March 13th, 2009
12:51 pm
Brunooooooooooooooo –
didn’t you just start a new gig? how’s it treating you??
“At the same time, what say all of you regarding the “beauty pageant of life”???”
meh. natural selection, pure and simple – I have no problem with that. I just find the whole monetizing of it via beauty pagaents … well … icky where children are concerned. I mean – wigs for babies? false teeth for kids who have gaps where they’ve lost their baby teeth? hair dye, fake tan, GOBS of makeup … good grief. talk about misplaced parental priorities.
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USinUK
March 13th, 2009
12:59 pm
“despite every effort from Obama and the Democrats to permanently ruin our economy”
yeah. well, we’re doing what we can…. mwaaaaahahahahaha!!! next stop – the American League, with their Designated Hitters!!! And, then – Pumpkin Pie! oh, yeah, we’re taking out the American way of life, one icon at a time.
srsly, B-dog. get a grip.
“Are all of you still so high on Obama and the Democratic leadership??”
I’ll take it ALL. DAY. LONG over what we suffered through 2001-2007/9. All. Day. Long. and twice on Sunday.
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Mara
March 13th, 2009
1:05 pm
Bruno – After less than two months, I think Obama is definitely in the running for “Worst President Ever”.”
after less than two months you’re ready to label him a failure?! Frankly, I’m astonished at the rush to judgement. It seems to me that the problems facing this country took years and years to construct, yet for some reason, you think Obama could just walk into office, wave his hand, and fix everything?! Seriously? Wow. You guys really do believe your own hype, don’t you!? Just remember, it wasn’t the left that called him ‘messiah’…
Luckily, I think the rest of the country has a bit more pragmatism (not to mention patience) than you. Nate Silver says that polls are showing Obama having maybe 12-18 months until people start evaluating his performance. I’m certainly willing to give him at least six before condemning him.
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Bruno
March 13th, 2009
1:11 pm
The new job is great, USinUK, at least so far. With the economy so tight, I’m fortunate to have a job at all, I guess. The owner is a cool guy, and a DeadHead to boot, so I think we’ll get along fine. In the office which I’m running, there is no internet access, so I will only be able to blog occasionally on my day off.
Per today’s topic, again, I agree with you, Mara, and the rest of the gang that child beauty pageants are bizzare, especially considering the extremes that the parents put their kids through, and all for what?? A trophy?? I saw on a TV show once that there are “pageant consultants” that parents pay thousands of dollars to for advice on hair styles, makeup, etc. Unreal.
At the same time, I brought up the fact that beauty does matter in the “real world” simply to put things in perspective. Whether directly or indirectly, I think every kid learns at an early age that appearance is paramount in terms of social standing. As crude as child beauty pageants are, they expose a truth that kids learn on their own anyway.
Because I needed braces, I was always extremely self-conscious about my appearance as a kid, and became very shy as a result. It wasn’t until my 20s that I could afford to buy the braces myself, so my social development was delayed somewhat.
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American Woman
March 13th, 2009
1:13 pm
Oh, outraged ones: I make no secret that I’m no fan of Pelosi because she was Bush’s bestest buddy EVER – an enabler, not a voice of the people. However, the jet business is nonsense. Please go to Snopes dot com and enter “Pelosi Jet” for the breakdown on that sitch. (I’d post excerpts, but Snopes does not allow copy & paste.) The Speaker’s special flight arrangements are a post 9/11 security measure (for those in line for the Presidency in case of catastrophe) that Dennis Hastert also utilized. The non-stop request, also security-related, is due to the fact that her district is in CA, and stopping to re-fuel adds risk. This was not her decision. I wish she’d resign, too, but I’ll keep my reasons real.
Obama hasn’t even had two months in office. If you’re going to sling the WPE label around, you should at least wait until you have some actual historical facts on which to base it if you want anyone to take you seriously. Two months isn’t long enough to really know the person you’re SLEEPING with, let alone someone who’s way too busy to take your whiny phone calls. (Unless of course you have a crystal ball, read minds, and already know everything. In which case, please continue yammering; we can’t friggin wait to be enlightened.)
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USinUK
March 13th, 2009
1:15 pm
Luckily, I think the rest of the country has a bit more pragmatism (not to mention patience) than you. Nate Silver says that polls are showing Obama having maybe 12-18 months until people start evaluating his performance. I’m certainly willing to give him at least six before condemning him.
PLUS, you forget that Congressional approval is at a 4-year high: http:// http://www.gallup.com/poll/ 116530/Approval-Congress-Hits-Four-Year-High-Fueled-Dems.aspx
and Obama is also doing better than Baby Bush did around the same time:
http:// edition.cnn.com/2009/ POLITICS/03/10/obama.ratings/
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Bruno
March 13th, 2009
1:26 pm
“I’m astonished at the rush to judgment”
I’m just giving some of you here a taste of your own medicine, that’s all, Mara. Not one of you ever gave GWB a chance, as reflected by your own quotes and comments (”We all knew he was an idiot going into office…”) I’m willing to give Obama a few more months before labeling him the WPE. After all, it will take a monumental effort on his part to surpass the disastrous presidency of Jimmy Carter.
Seriously, though, the hypocrisy coming from the Left right now is more than nauseating. Here on W2W, all of you severely criticized Bush for the deficit spending the past 8 years, and rightly so. Then, in less than one month, YOUR guy eclipsed all of the deficit spending from the last 200+ years. It will take the rest of our lifetimes, and maybe those of our children and grandchildren to finish paying for all of the nonsense pork barrel projects masquerading as “stimulus spending”.
As for the “messiah” charge, can any of you deny the coordinated effort by the press to present Obama in the best possible light while doing all they could to make McCain look as bad as possible??? Several major news agencies have already admitted as much.
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American Woman
March 13th, 2009
1:32 pm
Reality check: McCain made himself look bad. Not all of us get our “news” from interpreter pundits. Some of us WATCH and LISTEN for ourselves, and make our own decisions. Why is some people can’t be happy unless everyone around them is miserable? So sorry to disappoint.
Yes, things look BAD, don’t they? We’ve been getting used to that for years. Some of us are hoping that the new Captain might be able to turn the ship around before it sails off the edge of the planet. Would you have us throw the new Captain overboard before he has a chance to do that? How would THAT be smart?
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Mara
March 13th, 2009
1:36 pm
Bruno, yes looks DO affect how people treat you…but pageants present a skewed vision of what ‘beauty’ is. I was a MESS when I was a kid. A real tree-climbin’, knee-scraping, dirt-playin’, engine tinkerin’ tom-boy. I was not an “attractive” child. But I wasn’t tarted up and paraded around like a 25-year-old so I wasn’t particularly aware of it. Eventually it became clear to me that there would always be girls prettier than I and girls who weren’t as fortunate. But that wasn’t something I was confronted with until my self-image was already pretty well formed. I don’t think that appearance should be something a four-five-six-year-old child should have to stress out about.
anyway, all y’all have a great weekend ’cause I’m outtie for now.
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Bruno
March 13th, 2009
1:38 pm
“You think Obama could just walk into office, wave his hand, and fix everything?”
Of course not, Mara. Because frankly, no one could do that, nor should they even try. It’s not the place of the government in a free-market system to “fix” anything. Markets can only correct themselves, and all of this government interference will do nothing but prolong the problems–e.g the oversupply of houses on the market. No one wants to see the value of their home go down, but that’s what happens when supply exceeds demand. And all of the “price-fixing” schemes in the world can’t change that.
I’m running short of time, but will tryi to present a more detailed view of why I think the approach takes by Obama, Pelosi, et.al. is the worst possible “solution” to our current economic problems.
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American Woman
March 13th, 2009
1:40 pm
Anyone else see the Cramer-on-Stewart interview last night? The guy’s only excuse was that he was “lied to” by CEOs, but then every other sentence was an admission of guilt. “We could have done better. We should do better. I know. How about if I start doing better?” Talk about media enablers! He was the champion of “get rich quick schemes are better than hard work!” What a turd, but at least he’s not trying to defend it anymore.
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Mara
March 13th, 2009
1:47 pm
LOL! “I’m just giving some of you here a taste of your own medicine, that’s all, Mara. Not one of you ever gave GWB a chance…
LIES! Absolute LIES! George Dubya was viewed as pretty average before 9/11. He had up to 90% approval between 9/11 and the run-up to the Iraq War. You are welcome to take a look back, but I’m confident that the ‘Worst. President. EVER.’ meme didn’t come into play until AFTER he took his eyes off Bin Laden and instead, pushed us into the Iraq War.
Yes, by the end of his first term his image as a f*ck-up was well established and his legacy tarnished by incompetence and torture. But he earned the judgement, it wasn’t arbitrarily bestowed.
okay…NOW I’m outtie! LOL!
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JustaJew
March 13th, 2009
3:02 pm
Hi all, sorry I haven’t posted lately but the major f—up of the economy means I work thrice as hard as I did before (I’m in the bankruptcy industry)
**If a child isn’t learning the right lessons and isn’t handling it well, then the parent would make a different decision. But make it based on fact, not fear**
What a novel idea Shaunti. I just wish the former administration would have heeded this advice….
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JustaJew
March 13th, 2009
3:06 pm
ok, just read Mara’s instructions on how to use italics so…..
let’s see if this works
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JustaJew
March 13th, 2009
3:06 pm
right on!
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JustaJew
March 13th, 2009
3:07 pm
Thanks Mara!! Digging the instant posting too, whoopeee, we have truly entered the modern age!
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Mango
March 13th, 2009
3:14 pm
Enter your comments here
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Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:16 pm
So this blog is HTML Compliant?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:17 pm
EXPAT for every opening tag, you need a closing tag!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:19 pm
America need you Ronald Reagan! :->
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lovelyliz
March 13th, 2009
3:19 pm
I have a coworker whose daughter lost her house because she couldn’t afford the rent, and she did moved back home. Of course that precious granddaughter is in at least a half dozen pagents every year and there’s alway $$$ for those entrance fees and at least 2 dresses/costumes for each one. She’s so proud!!!!!!!!!!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:20 pm
Nancy Pelosi sucks so bad I can’t understand why anyone would like her! She sucks the Donkey tube!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:22 pm
She took her back?
What a loser!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:31 pm
is this a good code?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:32 pm
how bout this?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:33 pm
Well Blink and Underline don’t work….
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Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:33 pm
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Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:34 pm
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Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:34 pm
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Gandalf, the White! ;-)
March 13th, 2009
3:35 pm
see if it works in name?
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:-) Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:36 pm
not in the back….
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:-) Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:37 pm
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:-) Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:49 pm
Isn’t Shaunti lovely in her picture?
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:-) Gandalf, the White!
March 13th, 2009
3:51 pm
Immoral or immortal? Are they held in Vahalla?
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The Other Jack
March 13th, 2009
4:05 pm
Bruno
Let em have it. Wish I had time to join in.
Everybody,
Have a great weekend.
Via del toco la north druid hills
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The Other Jack
March 13th, 2009
4:08 pm
Oh yea. My newest fun hobby is to set my GPS voice to Japanese. It says the street names so it is hysterical hearing the mix. I am also learning a little Japanese.
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Bruno
March 13th, 2009
6:01 pm
“He had up to 90% approval between 9/11 and the run-up to the Iraq War”.
If you reread my post, Mara, I said that none of you **here** ever gave Bush a chance from the git-go based upon your blog comments. I made no comment about Bush’s general approval ratings.
“A real tree-climbin’, knee-scraping, dirt-playin’, engine tinkerin’ tom-boy”
What, are you trying to make me even hotter for you than I already am????
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Bruno
March 13th, 2009
8:02 pm
I won’t be back for at least a week, so here’s a partial list of my concerns about the Obama Administration:
(1) Obama campaigned on eliminating wasteful government spending, then turned around and put the country deeper in debt in less than 60 days than Bush did in eight full years.
(2) Democrats complained that Bush used public fear as a tactic to push through his war agenda, then Obama turned around and did the same thing to push through his massive spending programs.
(3) Obama and the Democrats mocked McCain’s statement that we may be in Iraq for the next hundred years, but are now stating that we will keep an occupying force there indefinitely.
(4) Obama made a lot of political hay regarding the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, promising to immediately close the base and either try or release all the prisoners. Now that he’s in charge, it appears that he is going to continue the Bush policies there, other than “abandoning one of President George W. Bush’s key phrases in the war on terrorism: enemy combatant” according to an AP article released today.
(5) Democrats have made a lot of noise about spying on citizens without a search warrant, then Attorney General Eric Holder came out in solid suport of the FISA Amendments Act during his confirmation hearings, which coincidentally Obama voted for in July, 2008.
(6) Obama campaigned solidly against using torture as a tool to combat terrorism, and promised he would clean house and restore the good name of the US. Recently, however, “Representatives of the Obama administration appeared to insist that the lawsuit by five people against Boeing subsidiary Jeppesen Dataplan — which flew them on behalf of the United States Government to third-party nations to be tortured — must be withdrawn, and that no evidence whatsoever in the case could be considered. Why? Because the Obama administration says talking about the torture and the American role in it could damage national security by harming U.S. relations with other countries: “proceeding with this case would jeopardize national security and foreign relations.”
(7) Bush was roundly criticized for his “faith-based initiative” programs in which federal dollars are being given to groups
which discriminate based on religious affiliation. Obama promised that he would institute safeguards to ensure that the separation of church and state are not violated. But, “Obama has not kept that promise. He has expanded the government establishment of religion without placing any safeguards against that expanded theocratic power at all”
in establishing his Advisory Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships, which consists almost completely of religious leaders.
(8) Much ado was made about “closed door meetings” by Dick Cheney in formulating a National Energy Policy. Barely a month into the new administration, Joe Biden turned around and did the same thing by meeting with AFL-CIO leadership in private in order to formulate a new policy toward the establishment of unions in the work place.
(9) Over and over again, Obama criticized Bush for creating a political climate based on divisiveness, then stood by without comment when his chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, insulted all conservatives by claiming that Rush Limbaugh, a paid entertainer, “is the voice and the intellectual force and energy behind the Republican Party”. Personally, I doubt that Emanuel made those comments without the approval of Obama. Way to bring everyone together.
So, the next time any of you here try to lecture me that I’m “not giving Obama a fair chance”, remember what you told me the past 2 + years: Dissent is good.
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Governor Caveman
March 14th, 2009
8:30 am
Well,well, we have another kunckle dragging political hack, who we all thought had a bit of scientific sense in that he is a Vet, go against the life saving stem cell issue. Just add another idiology idiot to the big circus called Georgia, one of the most backward states in the union! Uh, oh yes, I AM a christian!!!
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Ralph
March 14th, 2009
10:22 am
This article is woefully inaccurate. Cannabis is far, far less harmful than alcohol and tobacco. Tobacco causes approx 20% of all deaths annually ( http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_10_2X_Cigarette_Smoking.asp ). There is no evidence that cannabis smoking in any quantity encourages lung cancer! ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729.html )
Even the relatively socially acceptable drug alcohol kills hundreds of thousands yearly. While moderate alcohol consumption is generally not harmful, excess drinking can lead to liver, mouth, and throat cancer, cirrhosis, hep c, heart disease, and an endless number of other diseases, not to mention the deadly menace drunk drivers pose to everybody.
Please stop perpetuating lies and myths about the cannabis plant. THC is one of the safest pharmacologically active/psychoactive substances in the known world. It is FAR less addictive than even caffeine, and is for all practical purposes impossible to ingest through eating or smoking to a quantity that could cause death. No one will die from a THC overdose, but an untold number of people this year alone will die from eating too many doughnuts, crossing the street without looking, not having health insurance, and so forth.
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Inmate30349
March 14th, 2009
12:34 pm
How do you compare sex between consenting adults and grown up beauty pageants for kids. Thank God I will never be able to understand the mentality of “Conservatives”.
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Miranda
March 15th, 2009
3:04 am
Ahh Bruno, go ahead and whine for the next 8 years. Its actually kinda funny right now watching you right-wingers scowl and grimace. More fun for the rest of us. The GOP is going the way of the Whig party you’re so outta touch. Rush IS your leader and you know it, you absolutely know it and its hilarious! LMAO
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JokesOn
March 15th, 2009
8:39 pm
Not “one of you” bruno? And you chastise me for speaking for everyone!
As for dissent, calling him possibly the worst prez yet is hardly “dissent.” And when any of us did voice dissent, we were called anti-american.
With us or againstus is what we heard for 8 years. I AM glad we are done with that rudimentary logic. At least we have a leader that is honest from the get-go. If Bush were in office, he would threaten all that opposed and remind us that HE is THE decider.
Big difference that you are purposely ignoring out of grudge or indoctrinated past.
Anyhoo – pointless discussion: if you wanted to talk and reason you would not be decidedly certain. Bummer….I thought more of you for a while (remember 3 weeks where you saw how polarizing the conservatives were?).
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JokesOn
March 15th, 2009
8:42 pm
Test
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JokesOn
March 15th, 2009
8:44 pm
Test2
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JokesOn
March 15th, 2009
8:48 pm
Second to Last TestLast Test
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Mara
March 16th, 2009
8:19 am
ahem…despite Bruno’s assertion to the contrary, he has no idea what my opinions were prior to 9/11 because I was not a member of this forum at that time. He may be correct about the opinions expressed at that time, but there are very, very few of the old guard still posting so it’s not exactly honest to say “none of you **here** ever gave Bush a chance from the git-go based upon your blog comments”.
Okay, on to other things. I had started out rebutting Bruno’s points item by item then realized that if he wasn’t going to be here for the next couple weeks, it was just an act of futility. So all I’m going to say is that two months into an administration is waaaay too early to allege broken campaign promises simply because Obama hasn’t gotten around to doing everything he’s promised. He MAY be as bad as he’s being portrayed by the rightwing media, or he may not be. I suggest it is simply too soon to make such judgements.
Dissent is good and should be welcome, but…dissent does not mean you get to make up your own version of the facts. Take Biden’s “secret” meeting with the AFL-CIO for example. Exactly how secret could it have been when the WH post the transcript of his speech on line and reporters are allowed into the executive council meeting for the first time in history?! – mediamatters.org/items/200903060011
Another example? There are many conservatives are NOT part of the Republican party how is it an insult to all conservatives to say that Limbaugh speaks for the Republicans? I could see how all REPUBLICANS might find it insulting, but “all conservatives”? Maybe not so much.
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Pat
March 16th, 2009
8:59 am
“Kiddie beauty pageants” are indeed a “no-brainer” – supported only by the brainless. Nice try, Shaunti, equating cheerleading with disgusting over-sexualized displays of teeny tots – even you don’t sound convinced. OK, some clarification for morons, stating the obvious: If you dress your cheerleading toddler like a hooker and she does dance routines that look like they were crafted for the stage of the Cheetah Lounge, then yes, cheerleading can be considered equally bad. All moms of girls have to be vigilant against exploitation of their daughters; where tot pageants go so horribly off the moral rails is the deliberate molding of very young children to adult sexual tastes. For what POSSIBLE purpose would a so-called “conservative” who purports to be a “woman of faith” defend them? Well, to me, this is one of those, “If the liberal’s against it, it must deserve my support.” Go take a shower Shaunti, have a cup of tea, and see if you can regain your common sense.
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lovelyliz
March 16th, 2009
9:12 am
I am sure there are women out there for whom being in a pagent made THE difference in their lives. I don’t personally know any of them. Who I do know are women who peaked and it’s been downhill ever since
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The Other Jack
March 16th, 2009
9:16 am
Mara
Yes, by the end of his first term his image as a f*ck-up was well established
That was well established by the main stream media and bought hook line and sinker and the liberal left and unfortunately the less informed of the general population. This is the same media that failed to mention during a two year campaign for the white house that the congress has been under the rule of Pelosi and Reid ever since the economy started falling apart.
Bruno
Excellent points. It’s like returning to the days of Clinton. Hypocrisy is the norm and all those promises that we made during the campaign? Well, we ARE Democrats and they WERE campaign promises. If the American People were dumb enough to believe us, then they deserve us.
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The Other Jack
March 16th, 2009
9:34 am
USinUK
The Zombie shoot was a blast. I ended up shooting and using my small jib arm and my new HD camera. They got to East Atlanta village at 5:30 AM and by the time the shoot started at about 10AM, most of the Zombies had been slamming vodka and beer. There were a few serious actors but most of the zombies (about 40 showed up) were just completely falling down hammered by the time we started rolling. This made them GREAT zombies. Stumbling and falling down is what zombies do so this worked out great.
Everybody was nice except for a couple of drunk chicks who hated it when the director would yell “Quiet on the set!” which would inspire them to help out by yelling at everybody. Other than that, it was a lot of fun for everybody and we got great footage. I shot a lot of behind the scene stuff. I am thinking about posting a U-Tube piece about the making of a Zombie film. I have some really funny stuff. If I do it, I’ll post a link.
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Mara
March 16th, 2009
9:42 am
tumbleweed
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Lyrazel
March 16th, 2009
9:44 am
Wow! I feel the world has been dusted in Pledge.
I guess the worst thing for the two writers of commentary is their column is cut in half and few if any will ever read the total are what they wrote. I am ok with the half a commentary.
Per subject
I was in Fargo ND for some reason back when and the hotel I was at was having the Little Miss ND pageant and it was by far the creepiest event I had ever been on the sidelines to view. Hundreds of little girls no older than six all in make up and fancy dresses with abundant petticoats. What disturbed me most were the moms–decked out in spangly dresses identical dress with their kids–(O never get into an elevator with 10 moms & daughters and perfumed makeup and perfumes and perfumed hair–gag!) There was even the Littlest Miss Pageant being one where girls who had scarcely learned to walk were dolled up and pretending pageant.
Now this was before J.B.Ramsey–(Around 74 before most of you were born) and before pedophile lists–but there were a lot of men at this shindig. It was obvious they were not fathers or judges.
To make my overlong story short–I did not see a girl crying, upset, complaining about being there (unlike me who felt I had entered the Twilight Zone). The children all seemed happy and played with each other–had a good time with lots of treats and kid party stuff.
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Monica
March 16th, 2009
10:37 am
Kiddie pageants are nothing more than child prostitution. What parent in their right mind dresses their 4 year old like a 25 year old and parades her around in front of complete and total strangers?
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USinUK
March 16th, 2009
10:43 am
TOJ –
woowoo!!! sounds like the shoot was a blast – did your nephew/niece-in-law make it, or were you the only one from your tribe looking for brains??? what a great way to spend a Saturday morning (although, shots that early??? eeeeee … not since I was in my 20s … I’d need a nap by the time they would be ready to shoot!)
do you know the name of the movie, so I can tell the Mister and we can keep an eye out for it?
otherwise, how was the weekend? it was GORGEOUS here!! all the daffs are out, I’m seeing buds on my hydrangea, I was able to go out at lunch today without a jacket … honey. I’ve got the fever. and I’m not talking for the flavor of a Pringles.
3 more days and I’m DC BOUND, BABBEEE!!! then, Atlanta. I checked accuweather.com yesterday and it looks like the weather is going to be PERFECT the week I’m there. thanks to you and all the W2Wers for making that possible (I know you guys pulled strings – and I appreciate it)
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The Other Jack
March 16th, 2009
10:43 am
Lyrazel
I was conned into video taping a pageant when I first moved here. Atlanta was the Mecca of kiddie pageants. It was creepy. And you are right about the fumes from the scented everything. It was at the Hyatt, downtown and there didn’t even need to be a person in the elevator. They all smelled like a hundred different chemicals, all created to smell good, but the mix would gag a dead man. I can’t imagine what those chemicals do to a little girl’s skin and lungs.
The Mom’s were basically playing with dolls. And while some of the mom’s appeared to be ex-pageant contestants, most would have never been in a beauty pageant. Talk about living vicariously.
The problem i have with calling this child abuse is this: I was a news videographer: I’ve seen real child abuse. I’ve seen eyes black, broken bones, death, car wrecks where the kid was standing in the front seat when thir Mom hit a telephone pole. The depths of evil that is involved when a person abuses a child is sometimes beyond understanding.
That’s child abuse. Calling pageants child abuse diminishes what it really is. I have no problem with children competing. We compete our entire lives. It is how we can find our calling. But because of the massive money that is sometimes riding on these pageants, that is just too much pressure on the kids. They take too much time and they teach the wrong things, but child abuse? Will we ever stop changing definitions of words to match our needs?
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The Other Jack
March 16th, 2009
10:55 am
Joke
Obama appointed as chief of staff: Rahm Emanuel, one of the most divisive and hard core political hatchet men in the history of the planet. As we see Obama drop the ball over and over and we watch him being manipulated by a power hungry leftest Congress as he signs away our grandchildren’s inheritance (So far, $19,000/American household, and he hasn’t been in office for 100 days, yet.), watch for more EXTREMELY polarizing campaigns to be launched by the rebirth of Clinton’s old hatchet men.
When the fascists take over, they will first manipulate the capitalist system, diverting power from the people to the government, they will control the majority of the media and they will use their unlimited power to silence their opposition.
Please explain what part of that last sentence isn’t happening right now.
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The Other Jack
March 16th, 2009
10:58 am
USinUK
I didn’t show up until almost 9. I was shooting so I didn’t need to be made up.
The film was a short, I think it will appear in the Atlanta Film Festival, but I don’t know for sure. I think a short about making the short would be a better flick. I’m just slammed right now.
Weather was dreary and misty, perfect zombie weather.
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JustaJew
March 16th, 2009
11:06 am
TOJ, there are many forms of child abuse. I’m with you in that it’s not physical (that doesn’t look right, did I spell that right?)abuse but I could see emotional or mental…depending on how it’s handled. Of course, the parents should be run over with a mack truck but ignorance is bliss and for some of the girls this is just a chance to play elaborate dress up and for others (again depending on how the parents behave)it’s like being in a pressure cooker and that definitely qualifies as abuse.
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USinUK
March 16th, 2009
11:31 am
TOJ –
“Obama appointed as chief of staff: Rahm Emanuel, one of the most divisive and hard core political hatchet men in the history of the planet”
yep. and then he’s turned around and had numerous meetings with the GOP, reached out to the GOP, APPOINTED members of the GOP to his cabinet … only to have his hand bitten off by the GOP. so, you can complain about Rahm all you want, but your guys are the ones who are pooping in the punch bowl, not the Administration.
“When the fascists take over, they will first manipulate the capitalist system, diverting power from the people to the government, they will control the majority of the media and they will use their unlimited power to silence their opposition. Please explain what part of that last sentence isn’t happening right now.”
manipulate the capitalist system? really? please, define – I want to hear what YOU consider “manipulation”.
as far as “controlling the media” – all I can think is that you jsut don’t watch much other than FOX. you have Dick Cheney on CNN saying that Obama is going to lead us into another attack, you have Ari Fleisher STILL peddling the Saddam-9/11 link on MSNBC … this is “control”???
if that’s control, then they are DREADFUL at it.
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Mara
March 16th, 2009
11:53 am
As we see Obama drop the ball over and over and we watch him being manipulated by a power hungry leftest Congress as he signs away our grandchildren’s inheritance…
perhaps this is how it’s viewed from the right because YOUR guy distorted presidential powers so much. Legislation is SUPPOSED to come from the Legislature and not the Executive. Actually, the President is supposed to set the broad agenda, Congress writes the legislation (hence, the ‘legislative branch’), and then the President either signs it or vetos it.
He’s not being ‘manipulated’, he’s abiding by the Constitutional limits of his power.
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Archie
March 16th, 2009
12:39 pm
My answer to the topic question is no.
Now I would like to say I was impressed with all of the ladies last week in responding to my questions on self-defense,etc. I didn’t get to read all the answers because of work.
As for governor,Mark Sanford, he is getting blasted by the editorial board of The State, which is the largest newspaper in Columbia, every other day. Anyway I won’t post much on this topic because I no longer have a little, little girl.
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The Other Jack
March 16th, 2009
12:48 pm
JustAJew
I understand what you are saying but, you have to be careful not to let the cultural setting sway your perspective. This is mostly middle America, almost cowboy mentality. We have been taught that this is all bad, but being a beauty queen in Omaha is not considered a bad thing. These little girls have stars in their eyes and maybe that is wrong, but their little brothers may be looking at being a fighter pilot or a race car driver, but why isn’t that considered wrong?
I consider the pressure the abusive part, but that’s just because of what is at stake. The sad thing is that they are all given stupid little cheap trophies, so most of the younger ones have no idea that they were voted most likely to become slightly less hideous.
The problem is when they stop playing dress up and you have these nine year olds. dressed up like hookers who are dead serious about winning the BIG trophy. My kids competed a bunch and they lost a bunch, but it told them what they were good at. They were certainly not in any beauty pageants, but they were deeply involved in music and the arts and my little girls took marshall arts.
Competition is not bad. Putting all that crap on those little giirl’s hair. That’s bad.
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Betsy
March 16th, 2009
1:03 pm
I’ve seen some of the recent TV shows about kiddie beauty pageants. Whether they are abusive or not depends on the parent. I saw a determined parent whose 2-year-old was whiny and uncooperative back state and adorable on-stage. On-stage lasted about a minute and back stage, well. Another parent, whose child did not win, angrily said her child would never compete again and she was going to have to go home and tell her child that the judges thought she wasn’t pretty. Aside from the obvious – that isn’t what the judges thought – she apparently will teach her daughter that if she doesn’t win, the decision wasn’t fair, the cards are against her, etc. When dad asked the child if she had fun, the girl readily said “yes.” Go figure. Some little princesses apparently love being made up and somehow equate their participation to Hannah Montana or High School Musical, but many times the “make up” is so overdone as to be grotesque, a la Jon Benet Ramsey. If parents want to spend thousands on entry fees, costumes, hairdressers and coaches, fine, it’s their money. But aren’t they teaching them that beauty is what matters above all, and money spent to be more beautiful is fine, even at some sacrifice? How is it different from a child who wants to be a fighter pilot? Well, one takes a learned skill and hard work; one takes money, just money, and values what? Most of these families have other children. How is this a good lesson for them? Okay, it’s a competition, but what is it judging? No, I think they are awful for the kids and the mothers tend to be, with a rare exception, Momzillas, regardless of what they may think.
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The Other Jack
March 16th, 2009
1:24 pm
USinUk
Who cares that they had meetings. The GOP leaders were basically called on the rug to be told “”the way it was going to be”. There’s two sides to every story. “The Punch Bowl” is already poop. How can anyone rationalize this much money being spent at one time on projects that won’t even be enacted for years?
If you don’t think this is a play for power, take a look at what is happening to AIG. “The People” now have a say in how that company does business. It gives a whole new meaning to the term “Public Company”. The power shift where our elected representatives have a say in who gets a bonus with an insurance company, and you don’t think this is the biggest power grab in the history of the world?
This kind of money and power has never changed hands before. The complete idiots that we have made fun of for years that run our Congress have taken power that they will never give up. Please!!!! For the love of God. Pay attention to what is happening. $19,000 per American household!!!! That’s how much we will pay for the spending during THE FIRST 60 DAYS!!!!!!! They are tallking about another “stimulas package”.
Please consider for a minute. Just think back in time and try to remember when the world’s most powerful government was taken over by power hungry people who insisted on controlling everything, insisted on changing laws and policies where they controlled all the finances.
When has that ever turned out for the good?
As far as the medis, give me a break.
ABC The most powerful Political voice on the network was Bill Clinton’s “Boy” while he was in the White house.
CBS The most trusted anchor and the most powerful producer lose their jobs because they keep insisting that just because a source wasn’t double verified, that it didn’t mean that it wasn’t true. And of course it all happened to center around a Republican President. I’m amazed that the network took action.
NBC Where do I start? SNL does such a nasty and hard hitting mockery of the Republican Vice Presidential candidate, that she wins several awards for quotes attributed to Palin, which she never said. GE, the parent company will make billions from the new stimulas biil.
CNN The founder, Ted Turner. Really enough said, but as I woke up this morning, I heard that a former CNN reporter has just been made the Marxist leader of a South American Country.
I honestly have stopped watching TV. It has become such a complete Gobbels syle info-fascist machine that I can’t watch it.
I was hoping that the shift of power would call off the dogs, but did you see what was just done with the Rush Limbaugh effort on behalf of the media? When before has Rush Limbaugh gotten so much attention?
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The Other Jack
March 16th, 2009
2:04 pm
Mara
I took civics class, but thanks. I know that he is a puppet. The course was set in 2007, now they (The Congress) just have smooth sailing.
You didn’t address any issues about the shift of power and the spending of more money at one time than anytime in the history of the world. You do understand that power shift is from the people to the government, don’t you?
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AW
March 16th, 2009
2:17 pm
TOJ, seriously… don’t you get tired of that same old whine? CNN gave Glen Beck his own show in Prime Time. Lou Dobbs can’t go five minutes without turning apoplectic on the issue of illegal immigration. Nancy Grace is ready to fry everyone accused of anything. Larry King might be a “liberal” in your eyes, but he gives people of all backgrounds and affiliations a chance to be heard in their own words. Clark Howard ROCKS on CNN now!
Reality check: SNL makes fun of everybody. That people tuned in to the totally NOT funny show to watch the Palin parody says more about our shock at finding her on the ticket than any hidden agenda. The material wrote itself. MSNBC not only hosts uber-libs Olbermann and Maddow, but also Joe Scarborough, former REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN (who never wants to talk about the young woman who DIED IN HIS OFFICE under mysterious circumstances, swept under the rug by a medial examiner brought in from another jurisdiction by Gov. Jeb.) He gives ZERO news in his morning show — only boatloads of analysis and shouting. Chris Matthews couldn’t be a bigger WH-O-RE if he did the broadcast in fishnets and stilettos. The network libs you ramble on about are STILL giving Cheney a chance to put his face on the tube and yammer that it’s not Bush’s fault, while failing as always to ask any REAL questions. And speaking of REAL questions, “WHAT DO YOU READ?” is NOT a “Gotcha” question when asked of a vice presidential candidate. That the ditz could not answer is not a reflection on Couric! Puh-leeeeze. The “Goebbels style” label doesn’t apply. At worst, they’re sorry wh-o-res, and at best, they’re not really trying to be journalists.
To answer your RL question, AS A MOMMY, Limbaugh got my attention when he went on his short-lived television show and called Chelsea Clinton “The White House Dog.” I can’t imagine that you, a proud papa to a girl child, weren’t then and aren’t now still DISGUSTED at a grown man who’d humiliate ANY 13-year-old girl for being in her awkward stage. The man has no credibility whatsoever except for what the Republitard faithful give him. Those who keep applauding the lying, pill addicted hypocrite are earning every drop of scorn they get from thinking people.
Good day! (Shout out to the late PH, also a lying wh-o-re.)
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USinUK
March 16th, 2009
3:43 pm
would someone please pass TOJ some smelling salts … I think he’s having a case of the vapors …
TOJ – in random order:
1) spending. you do realize, don’t you, that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have NEVER been included in any formal budget – they’ve always gone through emergency spending procedures. they also add up to more than the total of the stimulus package. so the whole “Obama has driven us further into debt than Bush” BS holds no water.
2) leftists in central america???!!! NO!! I’m shocked to find gambling in this establishment.
3) SNL/Tina Fey. “I can see Alaska from my house” is probably the funniest line to have come out of the presidential campaign. and, yet again, you seem to have difficulties understanding the difference between entertainment/satire and news. But, I’m sure you have NO problem with the fact that your side still likes to mock Al Gore for saying that he invented the internet – DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE NEVER SAID THAT. Sarah Palin may not be an idiot, but she sure as HELL plays one on teevee (even folks with a PhD in English would be hard pressed to diagram her syntax-challenged run-on sentences). your guy picked her – and what a win she turned out to be for your side.
4) “Please consider for a minute. Just think back in time and try to remember when the world’s most powerful government was taken over by power hungry people who insisted on controlling everything, insisted on changing laws and policies where they controlled all the finances.”
you mean January 21, 2001? yeah. I remember that well … both recessions and the record budget surplus that rapidly became a deficit.
5) the “liberal media” canard. So what, ABC has Stephanopolis – as AW pointed out – MSNBC has Scarborough. The WaPo has Bush’s former speechwriter write their op-eds. Ross Douthat has now joined the NYTimes. really. “liberal media” label is soooooo 1990s and really doesn’t have any credence anymore. Joshua “my mommy got me this job” Goldberg is an oped contributor for USA Today.
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Frustrated
March 16th, 2009
4:00 pm
I think calling beauty pageants child abuse is a bit over the line. I am not saying I agree with the over done hair dos and make-up, but if the girls enjoy it, then why not let them do it? It is my understanding that pageants come along with “talent shows” to showcase your special abilities. So it isn’t based on looks alone (or shouldn’t be anyway)….
A child that is put into martial arts or boxing at a young age isn’t necessarily going to have anger problems or be a bully in school…so why does everyone think that dressing up and prissing around every weekend are automatically going to ruin their self-esteem??
IMO, it all comes down to the parents. Are you supporting in the right way or wrong? Are you telling them they did a great job coming in last place or only when they come home with a trophy? I think every child needs competition, not every child has athletic abilities or are good with instruments. If prancing down a runway is what little girls need to be ambitious about acheiving their goals, then so be it.
Shame on the judges and parents for letting the make-up, faux fixtures, etc get in the way of what really matters…..
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The Other Jack
March 16th, 2009
4:05 pm
I didn’t think any of you were going to agree and all of you avoided adressing the central point that it is the largest power transfer in the history of the world. 9-11 did not transfer power of private institutions to the Federal government. It doesn’t even compare.
The Iraq War? A fraction of the money spent in the first 60 days, but the same people who were ready to die to illustrate the point of 300 billion being spent is now yawning off trillions. The hypocrasy is overwhelming.
You just don’t get it. I have liberal friends that were huge Obama supporters and they are so upset that they will not even discuss what is happening.
What are you going to tell your grandchildren about the part that you played in the biggest power grab in history?
And yes, Glen Back was on CNN under their extremely strict rules until FOX offered less money but no rules. If you honestly can’t see a bias, I’m not about to tackle that one. You either see it or you don’t.
I’ll talk about whatever you want, but I see what is happening in Washington as something apocalyptic. Everything you see is a slight of hand to divert attention from the power grab. It isn’t so bad that you don’t see it. It isn’t terrible that you condone it. But it is horrible that you defend it.
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
1:47 am
is it me, or does the “future AIG exec” in today’s Luckovich cartoon look like Kim Jong Il?
TOJ –
“9-11 did not transfer power of private institutions to the Federal government. It doesn’t even compare.”
yep. you’re right. the federal government is taking over the planet one AIG at a time (the feds can’t even control their bonus payments, but, yeah, they’ve made a total “power play”)
spending in Iraq and Afghanistan between 2001 and 2007 = $602 billion according to the CBO (http://www. cbo.gov/ ftpdocs/84xx/doc8497/07-30-WarCosts_Testimony.pdf). that doesn’t include the “surge” nor does it include the spending for FY 2008. so, “a fraction”??? at least the money spent in the first 60 days is on THIS country and THIS country’s needs and infrastructure.
“You just don’t get it. I have liberal friends that were huge Obama supporters and they are so upset that they will not even discuss what is happening.”
with you. considering your hyperventalating reaction above, I wonder why …
“What are you going to tell your grandchildren about the part that you played in the biggest power grab in history?”
that it was nothing compared to the shredding of the Constitution during the previous administration. (not to mention, you seem to forget that the bailouts of these companies happened BEFORE Obama took office – AIG, Citi, etc – this started LAST FALL)
“But it is horrible that you defend it.”
not nearly as horrible … or “apocolyptic” … as it would be had the banking system totally collapsed.
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American Woman wearing green
March 17th, 2009
8:29 am
Hey USinUK! Do they have St. Patrick’s Day parades in London? Do they drink to excess? Or do they ignore the Irish there? Ever see the movie “The Commitments?” LOVED IT!
The ongoing discussion with the hyperventilator is pointless. If Obama were actually JESUS HIMSELF (untwist your panties, fellows, I never said he was) but if he WERE, it would not matter to those who’d rather huff and puff and shriek that it’s the end of the world than face the reality that their boys effed things up and somebody has to try to fix it, and it may or may not work, but most of us are hoping that it will. It’s our HOPE that they object to, since some people aren’t happy unless everyone else is as miserable as they are. Point.Less. But that’s just my opinion.
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The Other Jack
March 17th, 2009
8:41 am
USinUk
So basically, you are rationalizing the biggest power shift in history by comparing the actions of this president with the actions of the last president. I didn’t think that you respected GW Bush that much.
So since everything is in multiples of what Bush did, will Obama be multiples worse of the person that you guys consider the worst president in history?
Shreding of the Constitution? LOL!!!! What, so we could wiretap, something that has been actively done since since telephones were invented? No. Shredding the Constitution was dione when courts decided that the right to worship should be turned into a reason to restrict a person’s right to worship depeding on where they are standing. Now that is some REAL Constitution shredding
.
Or maybe our pathetic little attempt at scaring the bad guys by getting them all wet and keeping them up at night? Poor babies. And that is worse than what Pelosi and Reid have done to the economy since 2007. You do realize that they WERE IN CHARGE, don’t you? Now please send me a dozen articles from MSNBC, claiming that it really wasn’t anyone’s fault. It just happened. Or how about Barney Frank, demanding heads on platters. LOL!! Are people really dumb enough to buy his crap? Does any liberal realize that his head would be the first?
Do you even begin to understand that the people that you guys support are the best politicians in the world? Do you even begin to understand the shell games and the slight of hand that they are pulling with the help of the MSM? Rush Limbaugh becomes the biggest story on the week that the DOW drops thousands and you guys just go along with it. “I guess it’s reeeeal important that we all know about Rush Limbaugh and how important he is to the mean old republicans. . . hey what happened to my retirement?”
So if that train wasn’t built from Vegas to Disneyland, the banks would have collapsed? Wow, you sure know a lot more about the economy than I do. I would think that it was just a Pork project to give Harry Reid more power, but you are reeeal smart so you must be right.
USinUK, meet reality, reality, met USinUK/.
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Mara
March 17th, 2009
8:45 am
TOJ – These little girls have stars in their eyes and maybe that is wrong, but their little brothers may be looking at being a fighter pilot or a race car driver, but why isn’t that considered wrong?
Are you serious?! You can’t see the difference between hoping a panel of strangers thinks you’re prettier than the next girl and aspiring to become skilled at flying planes or driving cars? SERIOUSLY? You don’t see a difference between being valued for what you CAN DO as opposed to what you LOOK LIKE?!
“You do understand that power shift is from the people to the government, don’t you?” and “all of you avoided adressing the central point that it is the largest power transfer in the history of the world.”
actually, I believe the largest power transfer in the history of the world was when Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity and laid the early foundations for a unified Christian Church. Or perhaps it was the Russian Revolution that deposed the Tzars and brought the Bolsheviks to power and laying the foundations for the Soviet Union. Or maybe it was when George W. Bush secretly suspended the American Constitution because, as Scott Horton at ‘Harper’s’ so elequently put it, “We may not have realized it at the time, but in the period from late 2001-January 19, 2009, this country was a dictatorship. The constitutional rights we learned about in high school civics were suspended. That was thanks to secret memos crafted deep inside the Justice Department that effectively trashed the Constitution. What we know now is likely the least of it.”
I’ll give you the benefit of maybe having a point about nationalizing some of the financial institutions, but if you recall, TARP began under Dubya and Obama is merely keeping the policies enacted at that time. And to say that these actions come anywhere close to being the ‘largest power transfer in the history of the world’ is just…well…nuts. Hyperbole is all well and good for dramatic effect, but please…don’t expect us to take your comparisons seriously when you begin presenting your over-wrought opinions as ‘logic’ and ‘truth’ and begin scolding us for not being as upset as you seem to think we should ought to be.
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
8:51 am
AW – London had its St. Paddy’s parade over the weekend, but there really isn’t the “Kiss Me I’m Irish” attitude here that there is in the states. If I had to describe it, I’d say the Irish are tolerated, but not exactly embraced. The Troubles didn’t really help. And, of course, with the 3 killings last week … well, the only good that came out of what happened is that it brought everyone together, Catholic and Protestant, demanding an end to the violence (everyone, that is except for the cowardly thugs in their balaklavas, hurtling rocks at the police)
Gosh. The Commitments. I haven’t seen that movie since it came out. My favorite Irish flicks: The Quiet Man (”I can’t say it’s true, and I won’t say it’s not, but there’s been talk” – one of the best movie lines EVER), The Secret of Roan Inish, Hear My Song (Ned Beatty as an Irish tenor – an inspired bit of casting, that) and The Dead (John Huston’s last movie).
Happy St. Paddy’s everyone!!
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
9:08 am
TOJ –
“So basically, you are rationalizing the biggest power shift in history by comparing the actions of this president with the actions of the last president. I didn’t think that you respected GW Bush that much.”
wow. did you hear the whistling sound as the point when sailing by you?
your grasp on how the economy works is simply … well … mind-boggling. yes. everything was absolutely hunky-dory right up until Jan 2007, when the Dems took over the Capitol. Bear Stearns collapsed BECAUSE they took over – it really had nothing to do with structured credit. Same goes for Merrill, JPMChase, Citi, and Goldman. It was alllll because of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. Everything was FINE until they had the gavel.
reality, meet TOJ … TOJ, reality:
http:// edition.cnn.com/2008/ BUSINESS/09/30/us.bailout.timeline/index.html
it’s a simple timeline of events – you don’t need to worry about being contaminated by any liberal cooties. you should, however, be concerned about being exposed to facts … you may need your shots, since you obviously haven’t had much exposure before now.
“So if that train wasn’t built from Vegas to Disneyland, the banks would have collapsed?”
wow. someone still needs to work on “reading for comprehension” … TARP and the bank bailouts are not the same thing as the stimulus package (which isn’t, while we’re on the subject, the same thing as the appropriations bill). TARP and the bailouts started under Paulson/Bush and have continued under Geithner/Obama to keep the banks from failing. The stimulus package is a collection of projects that are aimed at helping increasing spending through tax cuts and stop job losses through federal projects. Try reading about it sometime. who knows, you might learn something.
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The Other Jack
March 17th, 2009
9:11 am
Mara
Obama just announced a campaign-like push to force the opposition to push though the biggest power take over in history. The man understands the power of the MSM and he definitely understands that he is at the wheel. Watch how he uses AIG to justify his socialist agenda. What amazes me is that i know all you guys are smart, but are you really not seeing this?
The religious power shift that you spoke of effected a fraction of the people that this power shift effects. And yes, GW was still in the White House. So are you saying that it was OK because Bush did it?
As far as little girls with stars in their eyes, telling a girl that she is pretty is not child abuse. I didn’t choose that path for my little girl. Actually she didn’t choose that path. But strangely enough, I don’t consider the raising of other people children as being my responsibility. I’m pretty sure that the parents of those children need to handle that.
The way I see it, with the power that is shifting in Washington, parents that dare to disagree with the teachings of the main stream media won’t have much longer to decide what their kids should or shouldn’t do. Pretty girls? Not important. Let’s see what they can do for the “People”. There’s no room for pretty girls in the brave new world. Now put on that gray jumpsuit, grab your hoe and sickle and stand in that line over there. Mara, is going to tell you what you need to do.
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
9:25 am
quick question for the class …
does anyone else’s page lose comments when you refresh, then add them back a few minutes later … then lose them again?
I like the new layout … and the fact that comments are (sorta) instant … but what’s up with the Refresh Shuffle (kinda like the Superbowl Shuffle, but different) … ???
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American Mommy
March 17th, 2009
9:32 am
“…..telling a girl that she is pretty is not child abuse.”
Was Limbaugh’s public humiliation of the 13-yr-old, braces-wearing child of the President justifiable, in your opinion? Was it forgiveable? If so, why? What about John McCain’s joke: “Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno.” As a PARENT, What do you think of a man who’d say such PUBLIC things about a child? Just curious.
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
9:33 am
TOJ, I responded to you, but it seems to be momentarily lost … will give a few more minutes before I repost …
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The Other Jack
March 17th, 2009
9:39 am
Mara
How did you like the imagery of you herding all these ex-beauty contestants into lines where you would instruct them? I’m telling you: I have a film in my head, but I just can’t get it out. It is the REAl apocalypse.
Anyway, I’m downtown and at the accountants all day Don’t be pissed at me. I really am worried about my country right now. I hope that we are strong enough to just correct. But this is a power shift and unlike some countries, our Congress is made up of idiots and pretty much always has been. I’m working and am doing OK, but a lot of people aren’t.
Ya’ll have a good day. Even you, Mara.
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Mara
March 17th, 2009
9:47 am
“As far as little girls with stars in their eyes, telling a girl that she is pretty is not child abuse.”
TOJ, WTF are you talking about?! Kiddie pagaents aren’t just “telling a girl she’s pretty”, it ALSO entails telling the other little girls that they AREN’T. No, it isn’t ‘abuse’, but IMHO, neither is it healthy to encourage girls to value themselves more for their appearance than for what they can do.
But that wasn’t the question you asked.
as for the rest of it…the snide references about ‘the People’, farm tools, jumpsuits, etc…WHATevah.
“…in the United States, conservatives have never bashed socialism because its specter was actually stalking America. Rather, they’ve wielded the cudgel against such progressive reforms as free universal education, the minimum wage or tighter financial regulations. Their signal success is to have kept the United States free from the taint of universal health care. The result: We have the world’s highest health-care costs, borne by businesses and employees that cannot afford them; nearly 50 million Americans have no coverage; infant mortality rates are higher than those in 41 nations — but at least (phew!) we don’t have socialized medicine.”
“Give conservatives credit for their consistency: They attacked Roosevelt as a socialist as they are now attacking Obama, when in fact Obama, like Roosevelt before him, is engaged not in creating socialism but in rebooting a crashed capitalist system. The spending in Obama’s stimulus plan isn’t a socialist takeover. It’s the only way to inject money into a system in which private-sector investment, consumption and exports — the other three possible engines of growth — are locked down. Investing more tax dollars in education and research and development is a way to use public funds to create a more competitive private sector. Keeping our banks from speculating madly with our money is a way to keep banking alive.”
“If Obama realizes his agenda, what emerges will be a more social, sustainable, competitive capitalism. His more intellectually honest and sentient conservative critics don’t accuse him of Leninism but of making our form of capitalism more like Europe’s. In fact, over the past quarter-century, Europe’s capitalism became less regulated and more like ours, one reason Europe is tanking along with everyone else.” – [Who You Calling Socialist?
]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/03/AR2009030303207.html
Go ahead and run screaming through the streets “Socialists! SOCIALISTS!! AAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!” It still doesn’t make it true.
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
9:52 am
“So basically, you are rationalizing the biggest power shift in history by comparing the actions of this president with the actions of the last president. I didn’t think that you respected GW Bush that much.”
wow. I’ll bet you could practically HEAR the point as it went whistling past you …
“And that is worse than what Pelosi and Reid have done to the economy since 2007. You do realize that they WERE IN CHARGE, don’t you?”
your grasp of basic economics is truly … ummmm … mind-boggling. you actually seem to believe that the economy was GREAT until January 2007, when suddenly, out of nowhere the economy started to go downhill. Bear Stearns hedge funds started circling the drains because Nancy Pelosi was sworn in. Lehman Brothers went under because of Harry Reid. Citi, Goldman, Merrill, JPMChase … they ALL started collapsing simply because the Dems took over – it had nothing to do with what had been going on over the previous 5 or so years.
oh, yeah, you’re a wizard at basic economics, you are.
reality, meet TOJ … TOJ, reality: http:// edition.cnn.com/ 2008/BUSINESS/09/30/ us.bailout.timeline/index.html
fear not, TOJ – you won’t catch any liberal cooties from clicking on the link … it’s a simple timeline of events … however, you might need to check your innoculations since you don’t seem to have had too much exposure to FACTS, so you could have an allergic reaction.
“So if that train wasn’t built from Vegas to Disneyland, the banks would have collapsed?”
uh-oh … someone hasn’t been doing his “reading for comprehension” homework again. TARP and the bank bailouts are not the same as the stimulus bill (which isn’t, while we’re on the subject, the same as the appropriations bill). TARP and the bank bailouts were started during Paulsen/Bush and have been continued during Geithner/Obama, and are meant to shore up lending institutions. The stimulus package is meant to stimulate short-term spending via tax cuts and improve medium-range employment through infrastructure projects.
C-, Mr. TOJ, you can do better.
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Mara
March 17th, 2009
9:52 am
trying to see if web addresses embed – lolcat
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
9:54 am
grrrr … posted a SECOND time … still not up …
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Gale
March 17th, 2009
10:03 am
If my second “testing” was detected as a duplicate, where is the first?
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Mara
March 17th, 2009
10:17 am
link?
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American Mommy
March 17th, 2009
10:22 am
Please note the lack of commentary from “conservatives” on the somewhat topic-related question of whether it’s offensive to call a girl child “ugly” and make public jokes about her appearance.
I apologize in advance for the fact that I WILL beat this ugly horse until the Limbaugh & McCain apologists/supporters comment on how they’d feel if someone publicly humiliated their own child, and enlighten us on how they reconcile and forgive such a thing in the interest of politics.
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Mara
March 17th, 2009
10:28 am
I dunno. At first I liked the new format, the ‘instant’ posting, etc. Now I’m not so sure…
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
10:30 am
Mara –
I’m with ya! I don’t know what’s going on today, but I’ve lost 2 posts (not sure why), as has Gale, evidently … the whole idea of refresh seems to be a bit possessed …
I’m wondering if the webmaster has gotten into the green beer a leeeeeeetle bit early …
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
10:32 am
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
10:34 am
“well, there’s winners
and there’s losers
that ain’t no big deal
Little Pink Houses…
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
10:35 am
If your kid is stupid, are you going to try to get him into Yale? Well, affirmitive action might get them in, if they are female or non white…bad example, my bad!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
10:38 am
Earth girls are easy!
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Mara
March 17th, 2009
10:38 am
Megan McCardle has an interesting peice over at The Atlantic –
“It’s not that I don’t think bankers are greedy. I’m sure they are. I also think homeowners are greedy. I think community organizers are greedy. I think greed is a trait fairly evenly distributed throughout the human race, though the focus of that greed varies quite a bit. That makes it unsatisfying as an explanation for . . . well, almost anything. It’s like blaming the financial crisis on oxygen.”
“So all of this “Why didn’t you stop this!!!!” where “you”=anyone the screecher previously disliked for any of a myriad of reasons, leaves me cold. Bernie Madoff is lying scum who should be buried in the darkest hole we can find. But doing so won’t fix the sad, sad state of your 401(k). No one person, or even group of people, in America is powerful enough to bring down the economy, and thank frakking God they aren’t.”
“It is much less satisfying, of course, to have history without villains. Oh, sure, we’ve got Allen Stanford and Bernie Madoff, but in some sense they’re a symptom of the crisis, not a cause of it: recessions uncover what auditors can’t. We want someone who can be blamed, ridden out of town on a rail, and his successors hamstrung with so many regulations that they’ll have to phone up Tim Geithner and beg for permission to sneeze. Preferably, they will also be paid in Necco wafers.”
“But I think that the systemic fixes that will work will be ones that don’t really involve blame: things like preventing banks from getting too big to fail, and empowering regulators who can oversee banks at the holding company levels, rather than having each piece of the elephant examined by a different blind man. Indeed, I think the biggest systemic fix, though temporary, has already taken place: it will be a long, long time before anyone takes those kinds of bets on asset markets again, or lets their leverage ratios get so out of control.”
– the article is well worth the read in its entirety.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
10:39 am
That’s an English thing EXPAT:
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Snidely Buttright
March 17th, 2009
10:40 am
If your kid is stupid, are you going to try to get him into Yale? Well, affirmitive action might get them in, if they are female or non white…
or if their last name is Bush
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
10:41 am
Community Organizers are soley to blame for the housing crisis. Banks by themselves would NEVER lend THAT MUCH money to people that are high risk. Socialism at work in your home town. It’s real, get used to it, you damn socialists!
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
10:44 am
“That’s an English thing EXPAT” … what’s that, GtG? the board being possessed?
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JokesOn
March 17th, 2009
10:54 am
Who cares that they had meetings. The GOP leaders were basically called on the rug to be told “”the way it was going to be”.
Since when dos saying “Im pleased by congress criticizing policy, but if you do at least bring something else to the table?”
He has implored the people that oppose parts of the bills they do not like to come up with something to counter those parts – yet they fold their arms and simply shrug.
You statement is one of Bush’s, not Obama’s: I am the decider!
And wire tapping may have been done, but it as illegal. Bush changed that and made warrantless tapping an OK event. Big difference. And the whole enhance interrogation: The experts where trained in coercion of false testimony.
Watch how he uses AIG to justify his socialist agenda. What amazes me is that i know all you guys are smart, but are you really not seeing this?
Point to a source where he uses the distasteful bailout of AIG (Bush’s policy mind you) as a way to further those evil civil services (gasp! Better get rid of those public schools and colleges!).
Archie,
FYI – I responded to your “pass” question on the old forum if you are interested.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
10:57 am
Sniddley Buttkiss! That’s funny, but we all know the Bushes aren’t stupid! Oil smart, are they! 2 Presidents? That has only been done once before, with them Adams’. Not a great speaker? Maybe not, stupid? Not one bit. Crazy (like a fox) maybe, but never stupid!
EXPAT: Indeed, the Irish say Saint Paddy ran the druids, snakes and computer virusi out of Ireland.
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JokesOn
March 17th, 2009
11:00 am
USinUK,
does anyone else’s page lose comments when you refresh, then add them back a few minutes later … then lose them again?
I have noticed the “comment pending” after a fresh post. I figure it is not broadcasted until filtered, and then actually gets posted when cleared; hence the temporary missing posts.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
11:01 am
Barry is a liar liar pants on fire! Tim G? A tax cheat and a fool. Hillary? She’s really going to stare down Islamofacist and korean leaders and put what? the fear of God? I think not! She is scary but to us, not to anyone else? And Joe Biden? Can you say tool? TOOL! I can! He’s a tool!
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The Other Jack
March 17th, 2009
11:12 am
Mara
Whateva, yourself. I liked the imagery. How are you handling a whip? Sort of a very bad Indiana Jones type. Very bad . . .
USinUK
Obama has control of W to W. He is messing with us. I went into a Publix last night at closing time and the lights went out as I walked down aisles. What a cool scene for the movie. I’ve got the movie makin fever. i just can’t figure our how to make your character reeeealy evil. Mara is your whip welding minion, Kimberly is she-king of the underworld. but you: I haven’t really got it yet. But it has something to do with creamy peanut butter.
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
11:13 am
EXPAT: Indeed, the Irish say Saint Paddy ran the druids, snakes and computer virusi out of Ireland.
hahaaha … and right onto the W2W board!
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Mara
March 17th, 2009
11:13 am
“does anyone else’s page lose comments when you refresh”
Do you mean when you come back from another site and see that some comments you read previously are gone? Or just posts that never show up?
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The Other Jack
March 17th, 2009
11:15 am
Oh yea. Gale.
Not sure yet.
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
11:16 am
TOJ –
“I haven’t really got it yet. But it has something to do with creamy peanut butter” heehee … sorta like kryptonite, but not as crunchy.
when I waited tables in college, I used to LOVE going to the 24-hour Krog “after hours”, around 3 in the morning – no moms with their ankle-biters, only people who work weird hours … and the music was a lot better.
am in the midst of a bunch of pivot tables – will repost AGAIN (this time in installments) in about an hour or so …
since it’s St. P’s day, I think the fairies are messing with the board …
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
11:18 am
“Do you mean when you come back from another site and see that some comments you read previously are gone?”
I keep this window open, then refresh every once in a while … sometimes posts disappear … then, I’ll refresh again in another few minutes and the posts return …
DANGITALL, AJC!! I am digging the new format – just get it RIGHT!!!
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Mara
March 17th, 2009
11:21 am
TOJ – How are you handling a whip?
Riding crop, yes. Whip? Not so much (I’d put in a winking emoticon, but can’t seem to get my ‘paste’ to work…)
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Gale
March 17th, 2009
11:46 am
I guess I learned my lesson. Don’t call the ajc’s baby ugly. I said I didn’t like the new format and got disappeared for my effort. I wasn’t rude, really.
On topic, I disapprove of putting kids under about 8 into any kind of competition. They need unstructured play time, not cometition. IMO
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American Mommy
March 17th, 2009
11:58 am
Hmmm… I don’t get it either. Why am I “she-king of the underworld?” Is it because I don’t rely on one source of news? Because I voted for the Democrat? (Yeah, like it was just me…) Because I think bald men can be uber-hot? Because I thought that a war based on lies was a bad thing? Because I don’t think Jack should be allowed to make your daughter’s medical decisions for her? Or because I go into mommy mode and defend the feelings of children on the receiving end of unprovoked public attacks by presumably GROWN MEN in public positions? Hmmm… Let me ponder that one for awhile.
Would anyone else like to come right out and admit that they were NOT offended by the bashing of then CHILD Chelsea Clinton in public jokes made by GOP Leader Rush Limbaugh and former GOP “Country First!” man McCain? And would those people admit they’d take NO OFFENSE whatsoever if Al Franken said same about their own daughters? (BTW, don’t add me to the list of Palin family bashers. I never cared one whit about the personal lives of her children, and felt Trig & Bristol should have been kept out of the political discourse.)
The topic is about children after all. Is it okay to apply your arbitrary judgments and pointed venom to children who’ve done nothing to deserve it? Is it fair to stick a child in a “beauty pageant” so others can measure her still-developing person against other children using standards they had nothing to do with defining and factors beyond their control? (Ick!)
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The Other Jack
March 17th, 2009
11:58 am
Mara
The whip would not be as important as the overall outfit. Sort of a cat-woman from Batman, but not as much leather. We can fake the whip thing. It’s more about the hip high boots and the big hair.
USinUK
Nothing like third shift at the A&P. That was my only job that was close to food services. We were at the end of “The Strip” in Knoxville so i mopped up a lot. It was bad enough to inspire me to never want to have that job again. It got me through those last two quarters before I got that worthless piece of paper.
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USinUK
March 17th, 2009
12:12 pm
“Nothing like third shift at the A&P. That was my only job that was close to food services”
I think waiting tables should be mandatory like national service – I think people would be MUCH better behaved in restaurants if they actually walked in a waiter’s shoes for a year. Fortunately, I’ve never gone out with anyone who was rude to waiters – but that was always around the top of my Dealbreaker List, along with no hard drugs, no violence, and no serial lateness.
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American Mommy
March 17th, 2009
12:49 pm
Okay avoidant one, expect this to hit you in the back of the neck like a spitball next time you spew the LIE about how you actually like & respect women & children. A father who thinks that’s okay…. really.
See ya!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
12:52 pm
UGLY MOMMY: Chelsea is a grown ugly woman. Leave McCain be. And just because Rush doesn’t want Socialism to take over America, doesn’t make him bad, If Someone said they wanted Hitler or Stalin to fail, would they be wrong? See? IT’s really really easy. Barry is bad for the US of A, and he has chosen Asshats to assist his distruction of he country, and he lied about everything. So love you new socialist dictator!
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Mara
March 17th, 2009
1:36 pm
just testing –
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Lyrazel
March 17th, 2009
2:15 pm
As long as we are talking the slurs on children of politicians—-recently M.McCain was ridiculed by some pundit for her weight. McCain is a size 8-10 but the pundit a 0. Normally I do not give pundits attention but this struck me as odd because M. was being interviewed by a conservative woman. On the campaign trail Mrs. McCain was criticized for being underweight during the campaign.
Ya cant win!
I get really tired of women saying its mens fault women have so many body issues. Its usually women who make the most snide, catty comments about women–who write articles about women in politics by saying: She wore a light pink leopard pant suit…… or about women at the helm of some business: In her Tuscan decorated office wearing low heels……….
Gandalf: interesting comment about Adams. His son J. Quincy was loathed as worst President-ever when he left office.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
2:49 pm
J Quincy was the worst at the time, then we had Carter, and now we have Barry!
Woman are all beautiful except for Rosie (and Michelle). Ugly is just a word silly girls. Me, I like gymnasts oh and the Rockettes, and the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders! They are beautiful. Beauty comes from the inside. I think both Mrs Bushes are beautiful!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
2:50 pm
Shaunti, beautiful, Andi, she’s beautiful on the inside…
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Lyrazel
March 17th, 2009
3:04 pm
You are such a poet Gandalf.
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The Other Jack
March 17th, 2009
3:48 pm
AM
OK, The uber hot bald guy thing might buy some consideration on the script. The film might have a likable she-king of the underworld.
But the character isn’t based on your stances. That’s just what you do in real life. The she-king is what happens when you use your powers for something other than good. Like defend the evil congressmen that are ruiining the country.
I’m just trying to figure out where I can get a white horse. And I’m going to need to buff up some more. And you are sure that bald men can look hot? I got work to do.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
3:58 pm
With the timely demise of that libal rag from Seatle, can the AJC be far behind? WE CAN ONLY PRAY!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
4:00 pm
TOJ, Can the hero save the country from Tim G?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
4:01 pm
Indeed I am Lyrazel! Thanks for see that! Most people don’t!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
4:01 pm
Most People Ain’t!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
4:02 pm
Word are beautiful!
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Frustrated
March 17th, 2009
4:02 pm
AW-
I’ll bite…. I don’t think the comment from Limbaugh about Chelsea was/is or ever will be appropriate. But the judges at beauty pageants are not telling other girls “Sorry, you are ugly, no soup for you”…. When you enter into a competative atmosphere, be it a baseball game or beauty pageant, you know that you are walking in with a chance of not getting first prize.
I played A LOT of sports growing up and just because I didn’t get a trophy one tournament didn’t mean I sucked at the game…. If my daughter came up to me and asked me if she could be in a pageant, I would sit her down and explain to her the chances of not winning and that it doesn’t mean she is not pretty, nor talented.(And the fact that I am not going to make her into something she is not with make up and hair extensions to win) Just like I would sit her down and tell her the possibility of getting smacked in the face with a ball if she wanted to play softball or the chance that she may not get the MVP award.
It is like I said in my earlier post, I think the fault belongs in the hands of the pageant judges and parents for letting everything get out of hand. There should be rules against making your children into something they are not. If your child has freckles, you shouldn’t get rid of those freckles….if they have blue eyes, you shouldn’t insert green contacts.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
4:02 pm
Anyone believe the Germans have Obama Fried Chicken Fingers?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
4:07 pm
I’m not a smart man, but didn’t Barry say taxing your health care was a bad thing? He make me head hurt! Bad Barry, no more lie bad Barry!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
4:07 pm
Trophy good, I like Trophy!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
4:15 pm
Beer Good, Green BEER bETTSLER
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
4:16 pm
Erin go braugh!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 17th, 2009
4:16 pm
Kiss me, I’m Irish!
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Frustrated
March 17th, 2009
4:40 pm
TOJ, Are you filming “Zombieland”?? I apologize if you have already talked about it….I just read an article about the movie coming out this October and was wondering if that was the one you are working on.
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Frustrated
March 17th, 2009
4:49 pm
Where did my post go?
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concerened mom
March 17th, 2009
6:28 pm
Ms. Feldman, you have it wrong here. The arguments for adult prostitution are not even in the same universe as parent controlled exploitation of children. It is very different than soccer and other competitions which place the emphasis on skill and dedication. The pageant world is one where children are judged on external beauty factors, and I can assure you that as a therapist I see a lot of women and teenagers who develop eating disorders, poor self-esteem and people pleasing manipulative personalities due to those kinds of contexts.
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USinUK
March 18th, 2009
8:19 am
last day before vacation …
woohoooooooooooooooo!!!
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The Other Jack
March 18th, 2009
8:43 am
Concerned Mom
If we avoid everything that you guys say cause eating disorders and poor self esteem, children would all dress in gray jumpsuits and never take tests.
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The Other Jack
March 18th, 2009
8:56 am
Frustrated – Are you filming “Zombieland”??
Lord no. This was helping out with shooting a 10 minute short. I do a lot of broadcast and corporate stuff, but I’m starting to get into some of the little “films” that are being shot in Atlanta. At times they can be frustrating because most of these people are hobbyist and being on time, being prepared, having what you need to do the shoot are sometimes lacking. This had a little of that, but once we started shooting, it went very well and very fast. I was usually the one calling for a retake and that was nice. Some local theater group did the make-up and it was great. With this new HD camera, it really looks “right”. It looks like a movie. And the director seemed a little flaky, but I have to say that she really covered her shots. I think it will cut together very nicely. I shot a lot of behind the scene stuff and I will probably cut something together. If I do, I’ll put a version up on U-TUBE and post it here.
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USinUK
March 18th, 2009
9:35 am
TOJ -
“If we avoid everything that you guys say cause eating disorders and poor self esteem, children would all dress in gray jumpsuits and never take tests”
normally, I’d agree with this sentiment, but this isn’t an issue of “EVERYone gets a medal / no one loses, the other team just came in second (in a 2-team game)”. I think that – in the case of pagaents – it’s pretty much a straight line between judging little ones based on their looks resulting in the ones who are “found wanting” developing issues of low esteem and/or eating disorders based on a skewed self-image.
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The Other Jack
March 18th, 2009
10:19 am
USinUK
The one that i was suckered into video taping, they all got trophies. Like i said, the little ones were clueless. The dangerous ones were the 9 year olds that dressed like hookers and wore bright red, shinny lipstick.
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Lyrazel
March 18th, 2009
10:53 am
TOJ–in my experience none of the children looked like hookers. Yes, they all got trophies and had a HUGE party afterward. No one I saw ever put down their kid for loosing—but I just observed by chance. The kids were all heavily made up (lights, cameras, action) but more pretending princess. Perhaps in years the pageants have been dangerously changed to showcase sexual (like Miss Sunshine: I saw but did not believe or accept). I came upon the pageant by accident and that was decades ago.
As you well know, TV is highly edited–reality TV more than shows–and shows like TV Toddlers on Mabelline are highly edited to show the freakish aspects because freaks are much more interesting than moms who dont push their girl to be slutty, girls who play violin, read chaucer are boring contestants–so the fact an actually decent tyke pageant show becomes a highly edited broadcast of creepy mothers and tykes doing pole dance, right?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 18th, 2009
11:19 am
EXPAT: mid to high 60’s and Sunny, lows in the 40’s till Tuesday then a little Rain through next weekend. SPRINGTIME IN GA! The Azelea’s are starting to pop, tulip and dafodils are everywhere, Bartlett Stinkers and Rosebuds are in full bloom!
Lyrazel: Where are these slutty girls who play violin and read Chaucer? Do they pole dance?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 18th, 2009
11:20 am
Congress is talking of passing a law that would tax 100% any bonus over $100K, isn’t that unconstitutional?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 18th, 2009
11:39 am
Barry wants to take those bad guns out of the hands of those incompetent pilots out there! He thinks that they shouldn’t have guns? Barry has been hitting that crack pipe again in the Oval Office!
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JustaJew
March 18th, 2009
11:45 am
Congress is talking of passing a law that would tax 100% any bonus over $100K
I’ve been talking about building a spare room onto my house, when’s that gonna happen? around the 5th of never…sometimes talk is just talk and as you know, talk is cheap.
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JustaJew
March 18th, 2009
11:46 am
Hey Gandalf,
I always wanted to ask you about what you would do if you were the President. What would America according to Gandalf be like?
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JustaJew
March 18th, 2009
11:47 am
Cause I got a feeling it would look exactly like it did circa 1952.
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USinUK
March 18th, 2009
12:17 pm
GtG –
I’m in DC tomorrow through Sunday, fly to ATL on Monday – DC is looking luuuuuuuuuuvly with sunny days in the 60s … ATL right now is looking half rainy/half sunny for my stay (temps in the 60s). Sun would be nice – but I’m more looking forward to seeing my dad, brother, sister, assorted in-laws, friends, nephews and nieces. Oh, and biscuits. I’m looking forward to some gooooooooooood sausage biscuits (hold the gravy).
If the Bartletts are in bloom now, they’ll be drizzling petals when I’m there … but I’m looking forward to the azaleas. how about the dogwoods? are they budding?
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Frustrated
March 18th, 2009
12:49 pm
US-
The dogwoods are budding, no flowers yet (that I have seen)… but maybe the Barletts will hold until your arrival…they are BEAUTIFUL!!!
I noticed the other day that I have 6 new day lillies coming up in my flower bed…..which is great since I only planted 2 last year…can’t wait to see what they look like!!!!
And my Hibiscus is getting ready to make it’s appearance!!!! I could not get over how many blooms I had last year….it just kept going!
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Whatever
March 18th, 2009
2:13 pm
where was all this concern for America and Pray for America! back in fall, 2000, when it was needed most?
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USinUK
March 18th, 2009
3:00 pm
Hi Frustrated!
I’d love it if the Bradfords would hold out – hopefully, I’ll see them in DC (my old neighborhood used to have the lining both sides of the street I lived off – it was like something out of a movie set when they were blooming)
My hibiscus surprised me with a bloom in the middle of December – 1 lonely bloom – I figured it was confused. It desperately needs a new home when I get back from my vacay – it’s WAY outgrown its pot.
so, how’s that ankle-biter of yours?? has she been playing in the spring weather??? the bigger question, Miss Martha – what do you have planned for EASTER???
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Gandalf, the White!
March 18th, 2009
3:50 pm
EXPAT, that’s a long way off maybe the rain will go away and come and play some other day! No Doggone dogwoods yet.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 18th, 2009
4:03 pm
Justajew, that easy! It would be FREE! We could choose what school we sent our school age children too! American’s wouldn’t be ashamed to be Americans! We would build the best cars in the world. We wouldn’t be held hostage by the fake science global warming crowd! We would have a strong border with Mexico, but free trade! If American business wants mexican workers, we will initiate a guest worker program, BUT, if your are here illegally we would kick you out! I would work on amending the constitution to disallow citizenship to children born of the illegal immagrant. People would be less concerned about the color of thier skin and more concerned about their fellow Americans. ENGLISH would be spoken here! Never in my presidency would you have to choose 1 for English when you called a goverment phone number. Business could still do that if they want, but not the goverment. I would intiate a draft for ALL young MEN on their 18th birthday, or upon graduation from High School. The draft would be either for Military Service, or humanitarian service, in the US or abroad. There would be no exceptions to this rule, lame sick and lazy would all play by the rules. Everyone could carry a gun, but if you used it while committing a crime, it might very well be used against you at a FIRING SQUAD. BUT LIKE ABORTION, THE FIRING SQUAD WILL BE USED ONLY WHEN THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS IN DANGER. Congress will stay in session until I approve the budget, which will be a very long time as I won’t sign any PORK into law. That’s a start…what do you think? You voting the G party? We don’t use a Pig, or Elephant we use a DRAGON as our symbol. I don’t care if the rest of the world respects us, I want them to fear us!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 18th, 2009
4:14 pm
I would have John Cena as the SEC of STATE
Move Barry McCaffery over to the SEC DEF (I know him, he can be a real SOB!)
SEC TREASURY? the Donald
SEC EDUCATION? the Video Professor!
SEC ENERGY? T Boone Pickens!
ATTORNEY GENERAL? Judge Judy!
SEC INTERIOR? What does this guy do anyway?
SEC AG? WALTER REEVES!
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The Dragon Party
March 18th, 2009
4:37 pm
Dear Dragon Party Hopeful Mr. Gandalf,
Thank you for your interest in representing the Dragon. Before we can endorse your candidacy, we require that you submit your wife to us for the strictness scrutiny of her physical fitness, facial bone structure, fashion sense, obedience levels, command of the English language, educational, family, and religious backgrounds, personality, and her comprehensive knowledge of American pop culture and reality television programming. We also reserve the right to taste her cooking. *wink wink nudge nudge*
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Archie
March 18th, 2009
5:07 pm
“Former Clemson board executive secretary Eugene Troutman sued the school last year after he was fired. Troutman said he was fired because he said the university’s tuition and fee increases were unnecessary. He said the board used tuition to help build an $80 million, unrestricted fund. He also questioned raises given to school administrators.”
That’s why I answered the way I did 2 weeks ago about subject of the staffing and curriculum at universities. Sorry for the interruption of the topic but certain Clemson professors received a 32 percent raise over a two-year period. Those professors were already getting a salary over 175,000 dollars. Ignore it or post on it and I will post more if I can.
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USinUK
March 19th, 2009
5:25 am
“we use a DRAGON as our symbol. I don’t care if the rest of the world respects us, I want them to fear us!”
you know who else has a dragon as their symbol?
Wales.
no one fears Wales.
just sayin’.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 19th, 2009
8:24 am
EXPAT that is because Arthur was betrayed; had it not been for Lancelot, Wales would rule the world.. just sayin’.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 19th, 2009
8:28 am
Dear Dragon Party,
Mrs. Gray cooks very well, thank you. Obedience levels? Are you a crack addict? She does what Mrs. Gray wants to do. Family and religious backgrounds? Daughter of a legal immigrant and devout Christian. She know way too much about pop culture and reality shows in my opinion.
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Frustrated
March 19th, 2009
8:44 am
Us-
My tot is great, growing like a weed and she now talks nonstop gibberish with an occassional “ack-ack(aka. quack quack), moo, woof-woof and “here kitty kitty”)—-She LOVES animals.:)
I haven’t really started with Easter planning yet (YIKES, I know)…she is a flower girl in a wedding coming up, so we are working on that…I will be totally impressed if she just gets down the aisle without saying do-do (you can thank the Mr. for that one) We had her dress altered and went to try it on yesterday, she hates it….she screamed the entire time….I think it is adorable, it even has a little train on it like the Bride’s gown….. All we have left to get is something to put up in her hair…..she is starting to get little ringlets:)sniff sniff
Anywho, I did buy an egg coloring kit and some eggs to go on a hunt for, but after that I have no idea….. I have been wanting to start back making hair bows…..but 24 hours in a day just doesn’t seem like enough time these days…Maybe I can get one or two out before then to match her Easter outfits….yeah, I said outfits….I am bad!!
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Lyrazel
March 19th, 2009
9:24 am
Gandalf, the Secretary of the Interior dusts the Oval Office with Pledge……….
I loved your giving Judge Judy a command but actually feel she should be on the Supreme Court.
The Donald is in bankruptcy (again). A friend said to always hire someone who has been through bankruptcy because they understand how business works but, I think he’s just a dated fussbudget in a pink tie.
Would think Sec. of Ag. positions would be the gent that ran the Peanut Co. of Georgia Factory—to prove once and for all regulations are for others.
Replace the entire congress with the men & women in law enforcement on COPS–replace Nancy Pelosi with Billy Mayes—they can finally start earning some money instead of spending ours—
Video Professor—-FANTASTIC CHOICE!!!!
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The Other Jack
March 19th, 2009
1:19 pm
Lyrazel
It’s been since about 1988 since i have been to a pageant. A lot of famous “actors” come from the pageant circuiit. Diana DeGarmo from Atlanta was in that racket, at least i think she was.
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Frustrated
March 19th, 2009
1:40 pm
So I watched Little Miss Perfect last night on the WE channel. There was one mom/daughter team that I really liked. They were both in a mom/daughter pageant and the mom wouldn’t let her daughter wear any make-up other than a little mascara and some lip gloss. They were there to have fun, which I think a lot of kids are doing as well. There were the parents that went to extreme, but even the ones I saw kept reassuring the kids that they did the best they could and that they were proud of them.
There was only one mother who told the cameras the whole “Now I have to go and explain to my daughter why the judges don’t think she is pretty” Which is total BS, IMO. All the pageants I saw were judged on beauty, interview (Personality), and Wild Wear (Talent show)….
My husband was kind of digusted with the idea, but I told him if my tot were to ask to be in one, I would be the mom that let her do it…but with rules attached. (no heavy make-up, fake tan, etc)…
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AW
March 19th, 2009
2:13 pm
Frustrated, I wholeheartedly disagree with these pageants on more levels than I’ll relate, and would NEVER put my child in one!!
But to be FAIR (some of us do try to see all sides of an issue): (a) It’s not so different from teaching a little boy that his value as a person and his future in the world rests primarily upon his ability to hit, catch, or throw a baseball (Helloooo, Cobb County, where little league violence occurs mostly among parents!), and (b) Brains will only get you so far in this world, especially if you’re female. A beautiful dumbazz ditz has a better shot at success in this country than the brainy girl who’s not pretty. Given those realities, I can’t honestly say you’re out of line. In fact, I’ll go a step further and say the tenets of feminism, whether the actual tenets or those alleged by misogynistic radio hosts, are based largely in wishful thinking. In the end, we can choose only what we do and how we respond to others, not how or what they think.
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Frustrated
March 19th, 2009
2:30 pm
Hi AW!
I can respect your opinion on never entering your child into a pageant. And I want you to know I am not pushing my child to want to do anything. But I want to be a supportive parent, I want her to have the confidence in trying new things. Whether she wins or not is not important to me, it is that she gives her best in everything she does.
There are a lot of beautiful women in the world, but just because they are prettier, doesn’t make me ugly…. I guess that is how I see the pageants..it doesn’t make or break you if you win or lose, it is the support you get from those around you letting you know you gave it your best go.
I am all for having scores at little league games. Sure, it is for fun, but there is a lot to learn from being competative and wanting to strive and pass your set goals. With the show last night, I saw the losing girls cry, but not because they thought they were ugly….it was because they wanted to win.. Which is no different than any other competition. You cry when you don’t win a big game, but not because you sucked at it…because you just didn’t win!! And it makes you try that much harder in the next thing you do…whether it be another game or how well you do on your homework in school..
I know not everyone is going to agree with me, but I think one of the most important things I learned as a kid is my competative attitude. It went from the ball field to the basketball court, to the track field, to my homework to the colleges I applied to. Even today, I make myself strive for better things….whether it be my physical health, my mental health or a new recipe in the kitchen.
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AW
March 19th, 2009
3:52 pm
Frustrated, that’s awesome! I’m a sports mom, because that’s what the kids wanted to do. (The music lessons fizzled…) I have my own comfy bleacher chair, and log many hours working concessions and doing fundraisers and banquets. PLEASE, PEOPLE! If you can, buy what the kids are selling to support the booster clubs. Public school funding does not cover sports, and sports help kids develop good health habits, learn to work with others, set goals, and learn to win, lose, and deal with disappointment. It also keeps them off the streets, bongs, and (I hope!) each other in a nekkid sort of way. For awhile at least.
I’m just sad that art and music programs have also faded for the younger generations. Not everyone wants to do sports. Art, music, and theater, etc. provide similar benefits for the children who aren’t interested in athletic competition.
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Frustrated
March 19th, 2009
4:34 pm
Aw-
You are absolutely right….I was in the band in middle school…it just turned out to not be what I was looking for, but I gave it a go and I did the best I could…which at the time was good(1st chair) with how little I stayed with it…but I still took it as a competition…But when the time came to choose between extra activities, I enjoyed my sports WAY more.
There is a part of me that wants my kid(s) to be into sports, and I am sure a part of me will be bummed if they decide a different path…. But I will support them and learn with them in whatever they choose to do for fun.
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The Other Jack
March 20th, 2009
8:32 am
Well, of course it is not the democrat’s fault. Fault can only be laid at the feet of mean old Republicans. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid took over control of Congress in 2007, but nothing is their fault. How could it be their fault? They care about people.
it’s like Chris Dodd and AIG. Dodd didn’t know anything about the bill that he wrote. I believe that. Dodd is a democrat and all democrats are good honest people. He cares about you and he cares about me. it isn’t a power grab at all. Congress should have the ability to first, give billions to a company that was going to turn around and give those billions to 22 banks, 16 of which were foreign owned and didn’t have financial problems.
Then when the writers of the bill realize that it might be unpopular that the organization that they gave my grandchilden’s money to might give contracted bonuses to the mean old private citizens, they should do what they do and levy an unreasonable tax on private citizens because, as we all know, they really care about people and this is not a power grab.
I’m glad that they are passing laws that punish private citizens for things that the congress was responsible for. i think that sets a good precedent. That will teach people like mean old Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity that freedom is only freedom if the wise and benevolent Congress decides it is freedom. That will show them.
Clean up your acts, Republicans. Get ready. THE PEOPLE’s PARTY IS IN CHARGE.
Get out of line and the man comes and he’ll take you away, hey you better stop children, what’s that sound? Everybody look at what’s going down.
It’s not about power. it’s about kindness and good and mean people better watch out.
Say or do the wrong thing, Here comes the tax man, just like it should be. It’s not a power grab, it’s justice and I couldn’t think of better people to hand out that justice as the people who are in Washington. After all, the head of America’s financial system forgot to pay his taxes and has never paid them, but he should be in charge of the tax system and now the banks.
It’s all about Hope. It’s all about Change.
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The Other Jack
March 20th, 2009
9:11 am
Our good and benevolent president offers an open hand to Iran. Iran once again spits in his face, giving lots of power to the crazies in charge there. I’m just glad we have hope and change now. I’m glad that mean old GW Bush isn’t in charge any more. His policies suggested that the leadership in Iran are unreasonable people who cannot be dealt with.
Apparently Iran is not buying into the hope and change thing. Barbarians. Hey, maybe our fine Congress can levy a tax on somebody. That should make it all better and I know that we will all FEEEEEL much better about it. .
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Casie Chyanne
March 20th, 2009
9:15 am
I wish the Republicans were still in charge. Nothing bad ever happened when we trusted them to just do there job.
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Mara
March 20th, 2009
9:45 am
LOL! Well, maybe. This is how I see it. Most folks in the investor class are people with money, people who will most likely end up paying more taxes under the Obama administration. So they start cutting back and making fewer investments. They’re uncertain. Scared. They’re more cautious with investing so they’re spending less on stock. Because they’re buying fewer stock, brokerage houses don’t need as many brokers. Brokers get fired, markets go down, investors get more cautious. And repeat.
Companies have grown used to having a ‘pro-business, anti-labor’ government spending our money to help them make profit. Obama’s policies are shifting the tax burden away from labor and putting more on businesses and investors. These groups are uncertain on what the impact of those shifts will be so they’ve become more conservative with their future plans, more fiscally responsible, and less likely to take risks.
And what is the stock market except risk? You’ve got as good a chance at hitting it big in Vegas as you do on Wall Street. Which is why, IMHO, gauging the health of the economy by the stock market is pretty rediculous. During the Bush administration, the stock market went up, up, up, as did debt. But real wages stayed stagnant. So for most people, the economy wasn’t all that great. For the average joe, the increase in the standard of living was fueled by credit cards, or mortgage refinance…not by actual wealth.
My buddy Michael is pretty investment savvy and he explained the new paradigm thusly “When the market is breaking records, brokerage firms are hiring hundreds of new brokers and taking risks and spending money like there is no tomorrow…get ready for the fall. When the market is so low it is hard to believe, brokerage firms are laying off brokers and adhering to spartan budgets…prepare for prosperity. President Obama’s programs are responsible. Responsible for a new era of prosperty with a twist. We are all going to get a share.”
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Watta Load
March 20th, 2009
9:54 am
Shaunti, we know you are biased but don’t you think you might at least try for a little more credibility than just quoting something from the Heritage Foundation in every column.
yeah right…we were all rich and had full appreciation of our portfolios on January 19th.
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Mara
March 20th, 2009
10:01 am
D*mn it! I spent fifteen minutes writing out a couple thoughts, which I posted before my 9:49. What happened to it? Is this a ‘glitch’ or are they censoring?
It was a darn good post and I am NOT happy >:-(
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Mara
March 20th, 2009
10:18 am
Clean up your acts, Republicans. Get ready. THE PEOPLE’s PARTY IS IN CHARGE.
“Socialists! SOCIALISTS! EVERYwhere SOCIALISTS! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH…”
okay, so I mock…but it’s well deserved.
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The Other Jack
March 20th, 2009
10:41 am
mara
Yesterday, the Congress of the United State of America passed a law that allowed them to target-tax a small group of private citizens in order to try and conceal the fact that that same Congress had given billions of dollars to a company and specifically said that the bonuses could and would be given. And you think it is about a Conservative screaming Socialism. This is hardly Socialism. this is pure, unadulterated fascism. it is a Congress that is completely out of control being ran by people who are only concerned about how much power they can achieve before their token president gets thrown under the bus.
You can laugh, you can mock all you want. if you are actually seeing what is going on and have nothing to say but to mock people who are concerned about it, there is nothing I can do about that. but please remember, the Democrats won’t be in charge forever, and the precedents they are now setting can and will be used by the Republicans against the democrats. i hope you are OK with all that.
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Casie Chyanne
March 20th, 2009
11:00 am
Why is every body so mad? Dick Cheney said defecets don’t matter. Let the men keep there bonus money. They need it to be rich and rich people create jobs. Taxes kill jobs. All rich people deserve more money and no tax if you cant understand that your stupid.
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The Other Jack
March 20th, 2009
11:02 am
Mara
BTW. You do know that Madolf gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to the DNC. That money he stole from other people, but the DNC refuses to give the money back.
The corruption and horrible management that we have seen in the first 60 days is like nothing I have ever seen. Almost every American lost their life savings when the Democrats took over Congress and now the fascist are in total control. So exactly what will they need to do before you finally open your eyes and start to complain instead of mocking people who do complain?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 20th, 2009
11:06 am
Europe is so 19th Century! Andi you are out of touch. Europeans suck donkey balls, they are losers. When the AJC goes paperless, I hope you get a chance to look for employment elsewhere.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 20th, 2009
11:07 am
Stupid Democrats following a socialist leader! You’d think the people would be smart enough to follow the Party of Lincoln, but alas, they know the can vote for dole, so they do.
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Casie Chyanne
March 20th, 2009
11:24 am
I want to vote for Dole again but was sorry to hear his erectal disfunctal acted up and he could not run this time. He is not as dead as Lincoln but close so almost as good and we need that more so as ever.
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Lyrazel
March 20th, 2009
11:38 am
I am not very interested in who is to blame. I invested and I was happy. Dems and Reps can have a blame somebody mud wrestling event–but I am not tuning in.
One of the problems with stock ownership (and all investments) are the risks involved and so I say with absolute certainty that most people who had invested in the stock market (by choice, 401ks, by advice) never appreciated the risk involved. When it was good & high few people were listening to them who said stocks were risky vehicles–that a portfolio was supposed to include cash plus bonds but buying more stock was the way of the high. Thus stock prices kept going up but so many bought HIGH and had more risk because they had loans outstanding.
Part of the volatility of the market was so many investors trying to beat out the market and get whatever they could watching their stocks sink lower than the HIGH price they paid–investors sold in panic and nothing makes a fire sale like a plethora investors trying to recoup loss being pulverized by their bank loans and non-existent savings. Nothing is safe in a stock market. Investors beware.
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Mara
March 20th, 2009
11:43 am
TOJ, the name is Madoff, Bernie MADOFF. It’s hard to take you seriously when it doesn’t appear as if you’ve done anything more than heard other people pronounce the name…
————-
Almost every American lost their life savings when the Democrats took over Congress
hyperbole again, TOJ? Hate to tell you, but most Americans had no “life savings” to lose! According to the Commerce Department, “the savings rate for all of 2006 was a negative 1 percent, meaning that not only did people spend all the money they earned but they also dipped into savings or increased borrowing to finance purchases. The 2006 figure was lower than a negative 0.4 percent in 2005 and was the poorest showing since a negative 1.5 percent savings rate in 1933 during the Great Depression.”
I can’t find the ‘07 and ‘08 numbers right now, but if we look at historic norms, we have to admit that we haven’t been handling our fiscal responsible very well for decades. The numbers for ‘05-’06 are particularly troubling…
“According to the BEA (Bereau of Economic Analysis), the national annual savings rate fell in 2005 to its lowest point since the Great Depression: negative 0.4 percent. Since then, it has continued to fall, registering at negative 1.6 percent in May 2006 and negative 1.5 percent in June.”
So, as you can see, when you make the charge that “Almost every American lost their savings” after the Democrats took over the Senate…well, you should be able to understand how hysterical it sounds.
————
But on one point, I have to agree with you. I don’t think that using legislation to address the issue with the IAG bonuses is right either. As angry as I am about them, it seems to me that it’s something Gaither should have dealt with BEFORE he asked them to insert the loophole into the bailout legislation. The weight of the government should not be used to force these workers to give up the money to which they are legally…even IF you or I find the manner of the payment infuriating. It isn’t right, I agree.
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Mara
March 20th, 2009
11:45 am
AIG, not IAG. Sorry for the typo -
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chuck
March 20th, 2009
12:05 pm
Good morning everybody.
I would not lay ALL of the blame at Obama’s feet, but I would put something over half of the blame there. He alone is responsible for the CONSTANT DRONING ON about the so-called “worst economt since the depression” and it is a TOTAL LIE. He and his handlers concocted this “crisis” SIMPLY BECAUSE IT ALLOWED THEM TO PASS ALMOST ANYTHING IN THE NAME OF STIMULUS. They therefore made things MUCH WORSE than they would have been.
Mara, USUK, AW, you pride yourselves on being strong, proud, intelligent women. Let’s see if you can pass the combined INTEGRITY/GULLIBILITY Test. Do you HONESTLY believe that the so-called “stimulus bill” was JUST THAT? OR, do you believe that it is at least 30-40% a result of, as Rahm Emanuel put it, that you “never let a good crisis go to waste”?
If you say you believe the former then you are not as HONEST as you should be OR you are not as SMART as you claim to be.
Finally, THINK ABOUT IT, when did the largest drop in the market occur? The day after Obama’s speech promoting Geitner’s “brilliant plan” to save the financials…which BTW turned out to not exist.
Karl Rove wrote an interesting article that asks the question, “Is Obama Winging It?” and he brings up some points that could lead to that conclusion:
the (lack of) vetting of cabinet nominees
the loss of control of the stimulu package to congressional dems
the declaration that the stimulus would “save or create” 2.5 million, then three million, then 3.7 million, and then four million new jobs. ALL just numbers pulled out of a hat. (In fact at one point they claimed that the package would save or create seven and 3 eighths jobs.) Get it?…pulled out of a hat…get it? BTW, what happened to all of you out there who keep saying that you “can’t prove the negative?” How would you prove how many jobs are “saved” as a result of the plan? You could actually claim the entire number of jobs that exist at the time the economy recovers as being “saved by the plan”. Will any of you defend that?
doing away with so-caled enhanced interrogation of terrorists. (had to change his mind on that one.)
the promise to close Guantanamo Bay within a year
In the world of COMEDY, improvisation is fun and harmless. If a joke doesn’t work or a skit falls flat, nobody dies or loses their job. Improvising as PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES, is a little different. I think SNL would call them the “not quite ready for prime time” politicians. Too bad things can’t be fixed by making pretty little fluffy speeches. If they could I would have voted for him myself.
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Mara
March 20th, 2009
12:12 pm
TOJ – You do know that Madolf gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to the DNC. That money he stole from other people, but the DNC refuses to give the money back.
actually, from what I could dig up, the money went to BOTH parties and the ‘hundreds of thousands of dollars’ wasn’t given to a single person OR in a single year. According to the Wall Street Journal “Mr. Madoff and his brother, sons and niece donated a total of $267,000 over the past decade to candidates, parties and political action committees…”
So that means that Madoff and his family gave maybe…$27K per year to politicians. Do you honestly think that money accounted for an spend five, six, seven years ago is going to be ‘given back’ by any group?! Be serious. Of the policians and groups that recieved contributions in the last election cycle, Chuck Shumer and Frank Lautenberg have chosen to give their Madoff contributions to charity. Didn’t see anything about anyone else…
Here’s a list of politicians who have received Madoff money – from Fox News
Democrats –
– Massachusetts Rep. Ed Markey
– New York Sen. Hillary Clinton
– Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry
– New York Rep. Carol Maloney
– Massachusetts Sen. Ted Kennedy
– New York Rep. Charles Rangel
– New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine
– New Jersey Sen. Frank Lautenberg
– Former Missouri Sen. Dick Gephardt
– Former New Jersey Sen. Bill Bradley
– President Barack Obama.
Republicans -
– Former Texas Rep. Jack Fields
– Arizona Sen. John McCain
– Former N.Y. Rep. Vito Fossella
– Former Louisiana Rep. “Billy” Tauzin
– Former N.Y. Rep. Daniel Frisa
– Former N.Y. Sen. Alfonse D’Amato
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Archie
March 20th, 2009
12:12 pm
I liked Lyrazel’s post earlier this morning. My response to the topic question is no,no, and no way. The stock market was definitely on it’s way down a full year before Obama took office plain and simple. Excessive greed and gouging are just a few of the things impacting the market. Shanti’s claim is quite weak since President Obama has only been in office since Jan 20th. Good rebuttal Andrea.
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chuck
March 20th, 2009
12:12 pm
Mara it is GEITNER, Timothy GEITNER not Gaither.
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chuck
March 20th, 2009
12:14 pm
just messing with you Mara
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chuck
March 20th, 2009
12:15 pm
Actually, now that I think about it, I think it may be GEITHNER
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Mara
March 20th, 2009
12:18 pm
Do you HONESTLY believe that the so-called “stimulus bill” was JUST THAT? OR, do you believe that it is at least 30-40% a result of, as Rahm Emanuel put it, that you “never let a good crisis go to waste”?–If you say you believe the former then you are not as HONEST as you should be OR you are not as SMART as you claim to be.
ah. So if I “honestly believe” something that YOU don’t, I’m obviously a stupid liar? mmmm-kay. No room for opinion, just dishonesty. No room for differing views on what ’stimulus’ means. Oh, no. Chuck KNOWS what I really think, and so he’ll know I’m lying if I disagree with him. Which, unless I’m stupid, I won’t.
Gee, thanks chuck. Way to start out a discussion…
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Mara
March 20th, 2009
12:22 pm
chuck – Mara it is GEITNER, Timothy GEITNER not Gaither.
LOL! Touche!
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American Woman
March 20th, 2009
12:59 pm
Chuck, thank you for your question about what we honestly believe about the stimulous bill. I think, however, that your question presumes too much. Even the most educated, experienced economic experts admit they cannot fully predict what/how/when the economy will turn around, and which factors will for certain and for shizzle work or not work. I don’t presume knowledge I don’t have.
If I interpret your question to mean do I believe that the new administration is TRYING to fix this crisis and prevent a 1930’s-type depression, my answer is “Yes, I believe they are trying.” If you mean do I believe there is no such thing as corruption in anyone affiliated with the Democratic Party, then “No, I don’t believe any group is free from corruption.” If you mean do I believe that taking steps to improve the job situation here in America is more worthy than paying billions of dollars to private contractors in a country halfway around the world, (some $32 billion of which I read is not accounted for in Iraq), then “Yes, I believe investing in initiatives here at home is a better idea.”
If you’re really asking if I am a gullible, trusting woman who’ll believe any horse hooey a man tells me because it sounds good, then my answer is, “Yes. I certainly was. There was a time when I really truly trusted the words and intentions of good, God-fearing, bible-preaching conservative-voting men.” I’d like to think I’ve wised up since then, but my 401K is in the toilet like everyone else’s, so….. no actual evidence there. Thanks for asking.
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Mara
March 20th, 2009
1:02 pm
and this article should make everybody stop and think for a minute…
One A.I.G. executive, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he feared the consequences of identifying himself, said many workers felt demonized and betrayed. ‘‘It is as bad, if not worse, than McCarthyism,’’ he said, referring to Joseph McCarthy, the former U.S. senator who used indiscriminate, often unfounded, accusations to suppress opponents. Everyone has sacrificed the employees of A.I.G.’s financial products division, he said, ‘‘for their own political agenda.’’
The public’s anger, he said, ‘‘is coming from bad facts as a result of someone else’s agenda — or just bad facts, period.’’ Instead, he said, the so-called bonuses were in fact just payments that had been promised long ago to workers, including technical and administrative assistants.
Technical and administrative assistants? IT drones and gofers? Should they have to be afraid just because they took a well-paying job with what a company that, as it turned out, profitted from unscrupulous investments? Should they really? Evidently there have been threats of violence in addition to the incidents of hostility.
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Mara
March 20th, 2009
1:04 pm
AW, kudo’s on that second paragraph!
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Scalia
March 20th, 2009
1:12 pm
Thank you, Chuck. I can appreciate somebody that doesn’t come in being sarcastic and not seeing that there is a shared blame. I am willing to give TOJ a hundred dollars if he can say something negative about the Republican Party. Not once in the past two years since he has been on here has he. Democrats this, democrats that.
Chuck, good points.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 20th, 2009
1:12 pm
Good thing for Barry there are a lot of stupid people left out there! His ratings are falling, he needs a big win! Maybe he’ll do good on his Barrackatology? HEHE What an ASSHAT he is! His FUGLY FIRST LADY met with Alicia Keys and it’s news! He talks to the Iranian people? WTF? He is such an idiot, I pray we last out his administration! Can’t God take him and JC home?
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Mara
March 20th, 2009
1:15 pm
Hi Scalia.
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chuck
March 20th, 2009
1:42 pm
Mara, to me the only opinions that amount to much are the economists who have ROUNDLY CRITICIZED the spendulus plan. Here are just a few examples out of TONS I found. So if the “experts” agree that much of the bill has ZERO EFFECT on the economy, that kind of clinches it.
Martin Feldstein: The Stimulus Package is Not about Long-Term Growth
Russell Roberts: There’s little any economic doctor can do to move our $14 trillion organism of an economy in the next few months.
Wang added that Republicans should continue to whittle-away at minor stimulus package items that don’t address the economy directly, such as sex education / family planning funds, anti-smoking and HIV prevention programs
Harvard economist Robert Barro looked at the multiplier effect of World War II military spending — supposedly the Mother of All Stimulus Plans and found that “wartime production siphoned off resources from other economic uses — there was a dampener, rather than a multiplier.” Barro prefers eliminating the corporate income tax to massive government spending.
An initial CBO analysis found that a mere $26 billion out of $274 billion in infrastructure spending, just 7 percent, would be delivered into the economy by next fall. An update determined that just 64 percent of the stimulus would reach the economy by 2011.
Economist John Taylor thinks it better to let the Federal Reserve deal with the short-term problems in the economy, while fiscal policy should attend to long-term issues: “In the current context of the U.S. economy, it seems best to let fiscal policy have its main countercyclical impact through the automatic stabilizer … It seems hard to improve on this performance with a more active discretionary fiscal policy, and an activist discretionary fiscal policy might even make the job of monetary authorities more difficult.
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American Woman
March 20th, 2009
2:29 pm
“…to me the only opinions that amount to much are the economists who have ROUNDLY CRITICIZED the spendulus plan. Here are just a few examples out of TONS I found.
That’s funny. I googled “stimulus plan praise” and “stimulus package praise” and found TONS of reports in favor of it. Hmm. Who knew?
I guess that proves that people will believe only what they want to believe, and that differing opinions don’t matter. That’s an excellent point, Chuck. I think the ladies can justifiably shut down the blog for good now. Thanks for sharing.
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chuck
March 20th, 2009
2:37 pm
Hey Scalia, Thanks. There is certainly enough blame to go around on all sides. The first $700 billion under Bush WAS JUST AS BAD AS THE TRILLION OBAMA IS SPENDING.
I don’t believe I’m being too cynical taking Emanuel at he word about trying to pass an agenda while there is a “crisis”. I also can’t imagine that anyone could honestly look at the stimulus bill and recognize that if over 60% of the money is not even being spent this year, it isn’t going to do much to stimulate the economy.
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chuck
March 20th, 2009
2:44 pm
AW, that’s really funny. I googled that just now and there were lots of hits showing “praise for the stimulus package”. To call them “reports” is just a little bit disengenuous.
NONE that I saw were economists. IN FACT, all of the ones that were listed on the first 2 pages WERE THE GROUPS GETTING THE FREAKIN’ MONEY.
Not exactly the same thing.
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American Woman
March 20th, 2009
2:53 pm
Chuck, thanks again for the enlightenment. You make excellent points. I’m reminded of the story of the starfish on the beach.
The Starfish Story by Loren Eisley
One day a man was walking along the beach when he noticed
a boy picking something up and gently throwing it into the ocean. Approaching the boy, he asked, “What are you doing?” The youth replied, “Throwing starfish back into the ocean. The surf is up and the tide is going out. If I don’t throw them back, they’ll die.” “Son,” the man said, “don’t you realize there are miles and miles of beach and hundreds of starfish? You can’t make a difference!” After listening politely, the boy bent down, picked up another starfish, and threw it back into the surf. Then, smiling at the man, he said… “I made a difference for that one.”
So Chuck, in addition to whining about how irretrievably screw-ed we all are because more of us decided to vote for choice D instead of choice R last November, what are YOU doing to make it all better?
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jovan
March 20th, 2009
3:41 pm
The blame for this mess lies squarely at the feet of the Republican Party. No one else. Bush and his cronies sold this country out in the four years that they had an absolute majority in Washington. The Dems tried to fix this in 2007-2008. But no. Bush vetoed just about everything the Dems did. All the while nothing was done between 2003 and 2006 with the out-of-control spending on the illegal war in Iraq.
Anyone who blames the Democrats for this are beyond stupid.
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The Other Jack
March 20th, 2009
5:17 pm
Scalia
I actually say bad things about the Republican Party, but considering that most of the liberals here would never ever say anything bad about ANY Democrat, I didn’t think that was any sort of litmus test. Or is this just another test that is only for conservatives?
And here’s a clue: The Democrats are in charge of everything, now. EVERYTHING. Would you rather me talk about Rush Limbaugh? Do I have your permission to talk about my government and what I don’t like? Haven’t you guys whined for years that complaining is patriotic? Is it my fault that I support the Party who’s big sin was to make bad guys think they are drowning, but you support a party who is destroying the economic backbone of this country?
I am, however disappointed in your response. I have known you to do the unlikely and respond to what is said instead of turning this into an episode of the Tara Banks show and talk about the person who said it. At least you understand what you are up against. How can anyone defend a Congress targeting a few individuals for taking money from their own employee, adhering to a contracted deal that the very same Congress drafted? It’s good that you didn’t even try.
But there are lots of things going on right now that should be scaring the hell out of you, that is unless you are just too dumb to look around.
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Bruno
March 20th, 2009
10:42 pm
So, let me see….Left-wing, anti-corporation, anti-wealthy, pro-labor union candidate runs on a platform of increased governmental spending/involvement, increased capital gains taxes, and soon-to-be government-mandated health insurance for businesses, and the stock market tanks after he gets elected. What a shock.
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Bruno
March 20th, 2009
11:10 pm
Continuing from last week….
10. In a sharp break with normal presidential protocol, Obama decides to appear on a late-night talk show, in which he proceeds to insult handicapped people.
11. In a sharp break with standard presidential neutrality regarding sporting events, Obama publicly fills out his NCAA basketball bracket, openly roots for NC, admonishing them that they better not screw it up and lose. What a jerk. In response, Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski suggests that Obama should focus more on the economy and less on making Final Four picks.
And, more seriously,
12. With Obama’s blessing, the Democratically led Congress creates special tax laws to punish specific individuals who the Dems don’t think deserve legal, contractually-obtained compensation payments from their employer. So much for the sanctity of legal contracts.
Thanks again to all my insulters last week. I understand your reluctance to discuss the issues themself, since it’s your guy who is running the country into the ground and making a mockery of the presidency.
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ByteMe
March 21st, 2009
5:31 am
The DOW peaked in October 2007 at over 14,000. The same week it peaked, FOX Business Channel went on the air. Since then, the DOW has dropped 50%. Coincidence or causation?
Or perhaps Bushies want to blame Bush for the market tanking in the first 60 days Bush was in office (the NASDAQ’s last gasp was early March 2001 and then it went off a cliff and lost 80%). No? You don’t? No kidding.
Start with a random set of 30 stocks picked to somehow represent the entire universe of hundreds of thousands of companies (big and small) and then using that as a stand-in for how a president is doing is foolish. Might as well go with the Super Bowl winner’s conference for determining whether the market is going to go up or down.
It’s coincidence, not causation.
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The Other Jack
March 21st, 2009
7:57 am
ByteMe
Yea. That’s right. A pro-capitalistic financial network goes on the air the same year that complete financial idiots take over Congress. So the same people that believed in Hope and Change now blame the financial network for the crash.
It wouldn’t be so pathetic that you are trying to rationalize this madness, but the really pathetic thing is that you don’t have the spine to come on here under a name that others would recognize you. Of course considering the ignorant garbage you are claiming, I wouldn’t put my name on it either.
Dodd and others are trying to blame the AIG mess on Obama. Now what was it I was saying about the racist Dixiecrats throwing Obama under the bus? Expect to see what happened to Carter, happen to Obama. His only hope is that the Republicans take back over Congress in 2010. Isn’t it nice that his only hope is also our only hope.
Idiot-Start with a random set of 30 stocks picked to somehow represent the entire universe of hundreds of thousands of companies
Well, Einstein. Be my guest. Pick another 30. Se if you can find one that isn’t tanking. Why people as dumb as you are allowed to vote is what is wrong with this country.
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The Other Jack
March 21st, 2009
8:28 am
Bruno
Don’t expect much discussion about the issues. This is a nightmare for liberals. How can anyone rationalize what is happening? The only thing they can possibly say is: Give them time. It will work. The Congressional Budget Office just released a report that destroys any hope that their power grabbing plan will ever help anyone.
So the slimy democrats try to turn the anger toward AIG after the attempt to divert to Rush Limbaugh failed. I don’t have a single liberal friend that will even discuss it. So much for Hope.
We could be giddy at the abject failure of the democrats, but we can’t because their failure is our failure. Of course they are not failing. The largest power shift in the history of mankind is well on it’s way.
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Ben
March 21st, 2009
10:54 am
I love the deregulation canard. How can you say the Bush administration deregulated the industry when regulatory codes more than doubled in number of pages since 2000?
What I know to be the truth is that our deficit is quadrupling under Obama, and very little of that money is helping stimulate the economy, but instead is aimed at increased government control over every aspect of our lives.
Just wait till Congress decides whatever group you belong to makes too much money. Then they’ll put a 90% tax on it. This AIG thing is such a great distraction for them, we shouldn’t care about $165 million in private contracts when Obama is flushing TRILLIONS down the toilet,
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Bruno
March 21st, 2009
2:02 pm
“Don’t expect much discussion about the issues.”
The change in tone coming from the left-leaning posters IS pretty amazing, TOJ. All of a sudden, the Bush-bashers who previously were experts on everything from national security to Constitutional Law are now claiming that simple economic issues are way beyond the grasp of mere humans, such that any criticism of Obama and the Democrats is completely invalid. But, hey, I did appreciate the story about starfishes.
What is maddening to me is that the big-government/socialistic path being taken by the current administration has been proven to be a loser time and again, but we’re supposed to somehow believe that this time will be different?? I didn’t like a lot of things that Bush did, but in the end it all added up to small potatoes. The debt being accrued right now and the fundamental changes being made to the relationship between government and private companies will likely impact us for several generations.
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The Other Jack
March 22nd, 2009
6:41 am
Bruno
People are not buying it, and Obama will be thrown under the bus just like Jimmy Carter was. His only hope is to have Congrtess flip in 2010. that saved Clinton and the economy did pretty well under a Republican Congress and a Democratic President.
The discussion here is nice and friendly which is good, but no one wants to yalk about what the Congress is doing.
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ByteMe
March 22nd, 2009
9:23 am
Poor Jack. If it doesn’t match his ideology, it must be stupid. Poor poor Jack. And resorting to name calling is the tipoff that you have no debating skills.
Wasn’t rationalizing the “madness” at all, but pointing out the stupidity of trying to equate what the financial markets are doing in response to lower earnings and reduced dividends from corporations with the president who has been in office less than 60 days and had little of his agenda enacted or even discussed. It’s COINCIDENCE, not causation. Anyone trying to create causation is sniffing glue in their spare time.
It’s really easy enough to find stocks that have gone up in this environment. I’m holding a few right now. Let me make it easy on you: WMT is higher now than in October 2007. Not much higher, but the largest retailer in the world is doing better than many other stocks. Oh, ok, you need another. Look at NYSE: GAT. I happen to like this one a lot, because it pays a high dividend, their profits are protected by government fiat, AND is higher than when I bought it.
Oh, and you don’t like my handle, huh? Think I’m somehow “hiding” behind it. Well… ByteMe, little boy.
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The Other Jack
March 22nd, 2009
10:18 am
ByteMe
So you have given me the earthshaking news that Walmart has appreciated while the rest of the stock market crashed. Thanks a lot. It appears you have had your television on during the last year. Congratulations. LOL!! So it must be OK that the federal Government has launched a lynch mob against private citizens to turn attentions away from their power grab because Walmart has thrived in this horrible economy.
Here’s a clue, Einstein. The Congress, the real financial instigators, have been under the control of the Democrats since 2007. Now what were you saying about 60 days? Oh, you mean the last 60 days when that insane Congress had no controlling power, the last 60 days when $19,000 from each American household was spent and the state of Georgia is fourth from the bottom of the states that will get that $19,000 from each Georgia household? You are calling someone a little boy and you are throwing tantrums while we are being robbed blind, but you are apparently too frggin’ stupid to see it.
You had no interest in debating anyone. Your name says it all. You can’t debate on a rational level so you have no other choice but to post as a hysterical little twit. Well you certainly accomplished that. Call me a little boy all you want while preaching at me for calling you names. It’s not like your opinion means anything.
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Gale
March 22nd, 2009
10:47 am
Sunday test
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Gale
March 22nd, 2009
10:51 am
Ah, either the problem is fixed or my work computer is blackballed for giving negative feedback about the new format. Never call someone’s baby ugly. Just say’n
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Caveman
March 22nd, 2009
11:53 am
It’s simply amazing that Cons that are desparately trying to claim the stock market only went down since Obama was elected were the same ones that blamed the slide in stock prices in 2001 (after Bush was in office) on Clinton.
So, let me try and get this logic straight:
If you’re a Republican, you can’t blamed for anything that happens in the first year of your presidency, it’s alway the fault of a preceding Democratic president. Even if you have to go back 30 years to blame a Democrat, it’s OK.
If you’re a Democratic president, everything that happens on your watch is your fault. Even things that happened long before you were elected are your fault, not the cumulative result of decades of “anything goes” deregulation.
That pretty much it?
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The Other Jack
March 22nd, 2009
12:00 pm
Gale
Apparently, the AJC has hired a company that does blogs. Look up at the address. I’m pretty sure that most of the posts arre not actively monitored.
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The Other Jack
March 22nd, 2009
12:07 pm
Caveman
So you believe that the economy is set by the actions of the president. I see.
It’s about Congress. The problems we are now having began in 2007. Can you tell me what happened to the power structure in Washington in 2007? Election? Pelosi? Reid? 300 investigations in the first 100 days? Any of that ring a bell? It’s about Congress.
Obama and Congress now have free run. If you don’t have a problem with what they are doing, there’s nothing I can do about that. But get your facts right. Bush is gone and a Democratic Congress has been in charge since 2007. Got it?
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ByteMe
March 22nd, 2009
12:46 pm
Poor Jack*ss: If my opinion means so little, why did you bother to engage me? Why do you bother to flood this blog with meaningless comments? You’re as bad as the Whiner over on Wooten’s blog… lots to say, none of it matters to anyone but you. Poor you.
And your post of 12:07 says everything about your ability to reason on a rational level. You really think this started in 2007???!? What kind of crap is that? Why is it that real economists were worried back in 2006 that we were in a housing and credit bubble and that the CDS market was a huge unknown that was going to blow up? If it doesn’t match your ideology, it doesn’t exist for you, I guess. “It’s all the Democrats’ fault!” is your repeated lament, as though if you keep repeating it and looking for evidence of it — while ignoring any evidence to the contrary — that you are somehow “right”.
Except you’re not. You’re just a Poor Jack*ss who’s a blog commenter. Must really suck to be you.
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The Other Jack
March 22nd, 2009
2:37 pm
BM-Poor Jack*ss: If my opinion means so little, why did you bother to engage me?
Other people read this other than you. Where you aware of that?
BM-Why do you bother to flood this blog with meaningless comments?
I’m sure they mean little to you. I hope you are having a good day. You seem very bitter and out of control, today. You haven’t hit your spouse, have you?
BM-You’re as bad as the Whiner over on Wooten’s blog… lots to say, none of it matters to anyone but you. Poor you.
So how many blogs are you visiting? That could account for a lot of that anger. Why don’t you do your loves ones a favor and take a long walk iin the sunshine. Be careful not to step in front of a bus.
BM-And your post of 12:07 says everything about your ability to reason on a rational level. You really think this started in 2007???!? What kind of crap is that?
Congress controls the economy. The leaders in Congress control Congress. The Democrats are the leaders in Congress and have been since 2007. I don’t think it could be any clearer.
BM-Why is it that real economists were worried back in 2006 that we were in a housing and credit bubble and that the CDS market was a huge unknown that was going to blow up?
That was in 2006. What year is this? How many years do they get to fix it? So far it has been a disaster. But you really just need to calm down, so why don’t you leave that to people who can think a little past that anger.
BM- If it doesn’t match your ideology, it doesn’t exist for you, I guess. “It’s all the Democrats’ fault!” is your repeated lament, as though if you keep repeating it and looking for evidence of it — while ignoring any evidence to the contrary — that you are somehow “right”. Except you’re not. You’re just a Poor Jack*ss who’s a blog commenter. Must really suck to be you.
Wow. It really must suck to be anyone within a city block of you. You really need to get that anger under control. I didn’t make you vote for Obama. It’s not my fault that you now look like a complete fool. Calm down, Pal. Take a walk in the sun. It will be over in 2010 when the Republicans take over and you won’t look like a fool anymore. But stay away from all these blogs. You just aren’t smart enough to compete and I understand how that must make you very angry. .
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ByteMe
March 22nd, 2009
3:53 pm
Jack*ss says: “Congress controls the economy?”
Wow. Just wow. Must really suck to be that dumb and not know it. Congress has trouble controlling their own sex organs. You give them way too much credit… or blame.
Oh, and your faith that the Republicans will take over in 2010 is going to be truly tested. They used to do “opposition” really well, now they can’t even get that right.
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Scarlet
March 22nd, 2009
6:14 pm
Sexualizing little girls??? You can’t be serious! You will look at a 6 year old girl in a bathing suit and claim its sexy?!? You are the REAL pedophiles here! Not the pageant people. As far as the extreme parents argument goes well, your judging your opinions on T.V. shows. You can’t really know until you’ve been there. I have seen some pretty damn fanatical parents in other sports and activities I have done. But, never in pageants.
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The Other Jack
March 22nd, 2009
7:54 pm
ByteMe
Whatever you say, pal. Just as long as you calm down. Your spouse deserves much better.
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deborahinAthens
March 23rd, 2009
7:09 am
The market is reflecting the reality of the fundamentals of the companies that trade on the exchanges. Banks that had been very profitable overnight lost billions of dollars, so their prices dropped like a stone. Citigroup dropped from 58 (2007) to .97 earlier this year. Citigroup is one of the Dow Industrial stocks, so its drop caused the index to drop. The Dow Industrial Index is “the Market”. As the fallout from the subprime lending mess, the collateralized debt obligations, etc., etc., rippled out, companies like Lennar (homebuilder), Home Depot, Countrywide dropped like stones. Obama had nothing to do with it. Now, let’s look at what might have caused the problems with the banks, and the massive company, AIG. In the late nineties, with a Republican majority in Congress, Senator Phil Gramm, late one night inserted the verbiage into a bill that repealed Glass-Stegall. I’m not sure about the correct spelling, you can look it up. Glass-Stegall prevented banks, insurance companies and investment banks to do any other sort of business other than what they specifically were supposed to do. No mixing of business. This was what enabled AIG to be able to create the “financial service products” that brought them down. Now, you can blame all you want, but, bottom-line, Clinton, who was President at the time, didn’t have enough pull in Congress to override a veto for this little gem of legislation. So, he didn’t try. I suspect that most people in Congress didn’t read the bill, or if they did, they thought, in their peculiar Republican mindset of “all deregulation is good, all government is bad” that this was a great idea since it would eliminate the largest roadblock to banks, insurance companies, and investment banks playing in each others’ playpen. What we need to do now is stop blaming and figure out how to get out of this mess. We don’t need to re-regulate, necessarily, but we do need to have the regulatory agencies to do their jobs. The SEC needs to grow up and do what it is supposed to do. The FDIC needs to watch the banks like the hawk that it is supposed to be, not sit back and watch things devolve to this point. Figure out how to value these “toxic assets” so that banks won’t continue to drop like flies. If you don’t have a good idea how to do this, then shut up and get out of the way of the people that inherited this mess.
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The Other Jack
March 23rd, 2009
8:27 am
deborahinAthens
There were lots of small changes made over the years that made it possible for the problems to occur. the problem with your logic is simple: There hasn’t been a Republican majority in Congress since 2007. In 2007, the economy began to downturn and the things that this Democratically controlled congress has has done has further destroyed our economy, not fix it. It is now simply a power grab with the slimy congress doing everything they can to divert attention from that power grab. Just look at the AIG mess. The democrats OK’d the bonuses and then siced the mobs on the private citizens at AIG. You do understand that no matter how incompetent a Congressmen is, he is set for life when he loses his seat, don’t you? Let’s send the lynch mobs after the Congressmen.
Obama is being thrown under the bus by the racist Dixiecrats. I am pretty sure that there were promises made to Hillary and people like KKK Robert Byrd are laughing their butts off. They will all still be in Congress with MUCH more power and Obama will join the ranks of Jimmy Carter as one of our worst presidents. He is laughing his butt off on 60 minutes. He looks like a fool.
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Gale
March 23rd, 2009
8:41 am
deborahinAthens: I love a rational voice. When we all realize how fruitless it is to focus on placing blame and instead focus on solving problems, we will get out of the mess a lot faster. The stock market is risky by definition. Values go up and down and that is how it works. When I think back to how I might have moved my investments to something more secure before it all fell down, the stocks I would have chosen as safe were those that tumbled the farthest.
I hope most of the posters enjoyed a lovely weekend, unlike -apparently, The Other Jack and ByteMe. That bitter bit was a terrible way to spend the lovely weather, guys.
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Gale
March 23rd, 2009
8:46 am
Oh, TOJ, I figured the blogs were run by a service. They look like all the other generic blogs out there. I guess ajc outsourced the geek jobs needed to run the blogs. I wanted to comment on last week’s topic and tried half a dozen times. This topic is fairly inane, IMO. I do hope you got out into the great weather this weekend.
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Gale
March 23rd, 2009
8:47 am
Gandalf, I was not able to say so last week, but I like your Dragon party at least as much as the standard two.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
9:28 am
Gale, the Dragon Party would have fun fixing the world!
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Archie
March 23rd, 2009
9:43 am
“This topic is fairly inane, IMO.” I agree Gale. I did walk a little on Sunday.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
10:12 am
Barry said he bowled like a Special Olympian, I think that would leave a bad taste in the mouth of any Special Olympian. He’s shows his true elitist attitude only infrequently, but you need use his screw ups to see through him for what he is. His wife is fugly inside and out, so he has no one to talk to, but Allah. His talking to the Iranian people shows his ineptness and naivety. He’s a conceited fool, and we are stuck with him. Gosh Dangit!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
10:16 am
The biggest problem facing the Dragon party is that during a debate, if Barry would come off with that smug attitude he gave McCain and cut me off, I would calmly leave my podium, walk over to him, {BITCH} slap him then return to my podium and look over at him and say, “don’t do that again son, you don’t want to [piss] me off”, then calmly continue my point. People don’t seem to like that aproach….
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Gale
March 23rd, 2009
10:52 am
Interesting debate style, Gandalf. It would be interesting to actually see that some day. Can you imagine an angry tussle on stage after a round of political insults?
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Gale
March 23rd, 2009
10:57 am
The Dragon Party had one specific platform that twitched my feminist roots. You would draft all young men. I would draft all young people. The only exception would be those with impairements that restrict them from independent living. I would require service to qualify to vote nad prohibit political indoctrination of the conscripts. I would make pregnacy grounds for dishonarable discharge for both parents, which of course, would void their right to vote. They could redeem that right by some other service to the country; teaching, perhaps.
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TakeNote
March 23rd, 2009
11:09 am
Bush vetoed just about everything the Dems did
Take note, all who think Congress(Pelosi and Reid) controlled anything during 2007-2008.
and like to keep blaming the Democratically-controlled Congress during those years for not quickly fixing 6 plus years of gross GOP mismanagement.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
11:42 am
Gale the draft all young men was a comprimise with the neo right wing faction of the Dragon Party. I wanted to draft everyone, but the whole preggers thing was a pain. You have a eloquent solution, thought the teacher thing kinda scares me as political indoctrination is what the NEA seems to be doing to my children. If we can get the NEA out of the schools and take 75% of the administrators and use them for target practive, then I am all for it. (it can be paintballs if anyone is upset about taking the admins away!)
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
11:43 am
Take Note, take note, your a pround new member of the dumbassi tribe!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
11:44 am
you’re.. we need dumbass check on this blog!
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All the children are beautiful!
March 23rd, 2009
11:55 am
President Obama hates special needs children so much that the stimulus package contains an additional $12.2 Billion in funding for the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).
IDEA is a law ensuring services to children with disabilities throughout the nation. IDEA governs how states and public agencies provide early intervention, special education and related services to more than 6.5 million eligible infants, toddlers, children and youth with disabilities.
Infants and toddlers with disabilities (birth-2) and their families receive early intervention services under IDEA Part C. Children and youth (ages 3-21) receive special education and related services under IDEA Part B.
The State of Georgia is slated to receive an additional $310 million in IDEA funds on top of the previously allotted $300 million. The result of the much-maligned stimulus package is that “our world’s most precious and unique people” will actually get funding for their special-needs education, except in States like Alaska where Republican governors are turning down portions of the money.
If Obama REALLY cared about the special needs children, he’d keep his big mouth shut and do nothing to help them. Talk is all that matters to the special needs children of Republicans, and he should honor that.
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TakeNote
March 23rd, 2009
12:21 pm
you’re.. we need dumbass check on this blog!
Ain’t dat da truth.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
12:31 pm
So, we are in a economic recession, and spending $12.2 Billion on special needs children is going to stimulate what part of the economy? Another stupid liberal “it feels good” move! Dumb dumb dumb…. 12.2 billion should be spent on offshore drilling.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
12:33 pm
Take Note “isn’t that the truth?” Are you too stupid to use english? Maybe you can’t recognize when you use it incorrectly? Maybe you can hook up with the eldest of 8th graders “who turned 16 the summer before high school?” He equal need to take not that he is a dumbassi tribesman.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
12:34 pm
equally needs…
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TakeNote
March 23rd, 2009
12:46 pm
Just trying to be ignorant, like you. ehehehehehehahahahah
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
12:51 pm
you don’t need to try! eheheheheheheh
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
12:52 pm
TakeNote you seem to be aliberal. TakeNote, you have a defect. TakeNote your brain malfunctions. TakeNote you have a mental disorder. But I take pity on you!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
12:53 pm
hehehehehehe
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
12:53 pm
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Gale
March 23rd, 2009
12:57 pm
Point well taken on the teachers, Gandalf. I’m an outsider so I can’t speak to what is going on in schools beyond what my partner’s sister tells us. The ‘teach to the test’ attitude is ruining quality education. And who decides what is on the test anyway? Good teachers dare not go outside the plan because their students may not score well on the standard test. Who cares if they learn how to think? I don’t know if NEA is responsible, but I do know that good teachers are priceless and bad teachers should be fired.
I’ve thought that a full draft was the way to go for a long time. But pregnant soldiers cannot fight. The problem currently is there is no strong consequence for irresponsible behavior.
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ByteMe
March 23rd, 2009
1:21 pm
Gale, actually, I had a fine weekend, except for not having access to my kitchen while they repair the floor. Both days were truly wonderful and much of it was spent outside, and who could argue with that?
Oh, as for your desire for “rational” debate, that doesn’t happen often in unmoderated blog comments. Truly a strange experience, some of the people you “meet” out here.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
1:47 pm
Teachers, for the most part want to teach, parents for the most part, could give a fly flip what happens in school. I go over every class with my boys every night, to find what propoganda they are dishing out. You know when school starts all the supplies they request go into the Commie Locker? That’s what kills me. I spend $100 bucks for supplies and the illegals in class, who don’t bring anything, use it! Make me want to buy a bus company and bus them all back to Mexico!
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Gale
March 23rd, 2009
2:42 pm
That sucks, Gandalf! I understand that some kids may lack school supplies. But it is the responsibility of the school system to deal with that, not for your kids to have to share their supplies. It sounds like they expect a certain number of kids to need supplies and so elevate the supplies for kids whose parents will buy stuff because they will “spread the wealth”. Grrrr… I don’t like it.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
2:52 pm
but that is the reality in 2009 gwinnett county. They got mad when I put my sons name on EVERYTHING I bought last year!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 23rd, 2009
2:54 pm
They actual called me for a meeting,
Gosh where they in for a suprise!
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Gale
March 23rd, 2009
3:20 pm
Way to go, Gandalf! It is one thing for the school board to decide to provide supplies for students who do not have supplies. It is quite another thing to take them from one student to give to another without the parent’s knowledge or permission. What earthly reason is there for any parent to buy supplies if the “state” will just give them to your kid for free? That solution is inappropriate. Now, I understand that some families, citizens or legal immigrants, may be in dire straits and cannot afford supplies. Send that issue to the school board to provide for those students. If the parents are illegals, the kid should not be admitted to class in the first place. I am sorry if that offends anyone. But illegals do not get free services, except a bus ticket back home. This is as bad as the practice of random locker searches in schools. We have basic rights in our Constitution. If we allow them to be trampled in the schools without cries of outrage, how do we expect those students to grow up with any real sense of what American is all about?
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AW
March 23rd, 2009
4:22 pm
Which basic Constitutional rights have ever been upheld in schools, and since when?
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norman ravitch
March 23rd, 2009
6:34 pm
What do these redneck aand blackneck Georgia legislators know about higher education?
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kp
March 23rd, 2009
10:42 pm
To all the children are beautiful
That is certainly a very worthy cause. You paint a broad brush however in assuming that since an Alaska Govenor turned down a protion of the “stimulus” money they obviously are not funding any program on the sort that you tout. Again, do not misintrepet me – your cause is a very diserving one. Your comments regarding a “republican” senator however make your other comments null and void – you disagree with all republicans period.
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The Other Jack
March 24th, 2009
6:28 am
Gale
I had a great weekend. I gues USinUK is in the states now. Now what did I do with that creamy peanut butter?
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Eric
March 24th, 2009
7:34 am
No, Obama is turning out to be very conservative and supportive of Wall Street and the rich who run it. What a disappointment for those of us on the left!
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Mara
March 24th, 2009
7:48 am
from the book of What the H*ll?! –
As if the Garden State didn’t have enough troubles, lawmakers in Trenton are prepared to level one of the foundations of the state economy: the Brazilian.
The state Board of Cosmetology and Hairstyling is moving toward a ban on genital waxing altogether after two women reported being injured in their quest for a smooth bikini line.
Both women were hospitalized for infections following so-called “Brazilian” bikini waxes; one of the women has filed a lawsuit, according to Jeff Lamm, a spokesman for New Jersey’s Division of Consumer Affairs, which oversees the cosmetology board.
Technically, genital waxing has never been allowed — only the face, neck, abdomen, legs and arms are permitted — but because bare-it-all “Brazilians” weren’t specifically banned, state regulators haven’t enforced the law.
“The genital area is not part of the abdomen or legs as some might assume,” Lamm said.
“Perhaps not, Mr. Lamm, but what do you say to the thousands of cosmetologists who are about to become criminals overnight? And what do you say to the millions of New Jersey women who will be forced to live with unwanted hair? And what of the state’s jobs and economy? Will New Jersey next ruin pivotal wealth producers like the orange body spray sector, or neon underbody manufacturers, because of a few industrial accidents?”
“Perhaps Brazilians from trained cosmetologists pose a slight risk, but what of the dangers of unlicensed waxing, sure to occur when the demand is driven underground?”
“Spa owner Linda Orsuto, who owns 800 West Salon & Spa in Cherry Hill, estimates that most of 1,800 bikini waxes performed at her business last year were Brazilian-style. “It’s huge,” she said, adding that her customers don’t think their bikini lines are anyone’s business but their own. “It’s just not right.” She said many customers would likely travel across state lines to get it and some might even try to wax themselves.
————————————————————————
and you all thought that we didn’t have enough to worry about…
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Lyrazel
March 24th, 2009
8:25 am
Mara! What they found out and do not really WANT to publish is how many men in weightlifting competition also get Brazilian waxes!
O! So many men! So much hair! I am thinking of a new career!!!!
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Mara
March 24th, 2009
9:19 am
Lyrazel – I am thinking of a new career!!!!
eeewwww! Yeah, somebody’s got to do it…but ripping the hair off butts and genitalia just doesn’t sound like a lot of fun to me
and speaking of men getting waxed…the article said that “only the face, neck, abdomen, legs and arms are permitted” so why isn’t back hair included in the ban?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 24th, 2009
10:13 am
I might just open a brazilian wax palor exclusively for woman. To think a woman would actually pay me to wax her there! That’s insane!
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Lyrazel
March 24th, 2009
11:42 am
Was recently looking at a men’s backhair shaver. Its shaped like a ruler and pet lint brush. Gentlemen rake their backs with it.
My husband cowered–and hid when I was laughing on my new career—saying:
Stubble!!!
O yes! Beauty is cruel.
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JustaJew
March 24th, 2009
1:01 pm
how do we expect those students to grow up with any real sense of what American is all about?
Hey Gale, children, above al others, already know exactly what America is about because America is really about childish things now. 1.) It’s all about me and mine! 2.) HE DID IT!!! NOT ME!!!!
Those two positions pretty much sum up what America is about today….
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Gale
March 24th, 2009
1:02 pm
Lyrazel, I hate stubble. I can’t understand why most women don’t prefer beards on men.
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Gale
March 24th, 2009
1:18 pm
JustaJew, That is so sad, but true in many sectors. We don’t provides a lot of examples of responsibile behavior and accountability. If we did, those executives of failing companies who took/are taking bonuses, would instead refuse them and appologize to the many people their risky actions effected. I long to see one American executive publicly say he is sorry for the mess he helped to create and he is resigning because of his part. It is not in our cultural base apparently. Do parents even teach their children to fess up to thier mistakes anymore?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 24th, 2009
3:22 pm
Let me see, the Boy Scouts don’t teach that Justajew! They are as American as Baseball and Apple Pie! The Girl Scouts teach some values, though they have sold out to liberal ideas already….
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JustaJew
March 24th, 2009
3:31 pm
Gandalf,
Tell me about it! How dare those women organize a club where they teach young girls to think for themselves. They should be teaching those girls about their place in the kitchen and their subservience to men. Silly liberal Girl Scouts!
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JustaJew
March 24th, 2009
3:39 pm
Hey Gandalf,
did you know that the original girl scouts manual was the British Girl Guide? Seems they were liberal from the start…
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Gandalf, the White!
March 24th, 2009
3:51 pm
JustaJew, WTF are you talking about? I was simply stating they have gone against the ideas enspoused by Juliet Lowe. Boy Scouts are a faith based organization, something I am sure offends you. God is missing from this country, like those silly Europeans, we as a people are turning our back on God. Woman should know thier way around a kitchen (as should men)!
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JustaJew
March 24th, 2009
4:09 pm
Gandalf,
the first two lines of the girl scout promise…
On my honor, I will try:
To serve God and my country….
How is this “getting away from God”
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American Woman
March 24th, 2009
4:12 pm
Actually, I find the message of the girl scouts to be conficting. On one hand, GSA helps girls learn skills for success, character, leadership, etc. Good things. On the other hand, the annual cookie sale seems to be the biggest aspect of participation for both girls and moms. While fundraising is good, COOKIES ARE BAD. Yes, they taste good, and you can all yammer on endlessly about how they melt in your mouth, ‘merica & applie pie traditions, but the fact is: If you need a sleeve of thin mints or a box of samoas to suddenly make your nothing day seem worthwhile, then your priorities are not something I’d want to teach little girls!
Further, these girls are coming of age in a society that worships the svelt beauty of youth. THIN = PRETTY in their world. THIN = RESPECT. Nothing we grown-ups have done in our generation disputes that. If we are to teach young girls to compete in this world, then we should teach them honestly: “Honey, put down the cookies and go for a run, or the men will act like they’re doing you a favor to hit that.” Where’s the lifetime benefit of learning to cook & eat healthy? How does it help them to wind up with 50 boxes of sugary crap in their kitchens, only to spend Saturays outside of BlockBuster hawking them to already-overweight moms whose husbands stopped looking at their behinds years ago?
And as bad as girl scout cookies are for the girls, they’re even WORSE for Moms! That’s another rant, but Mom really doesn’t need the calories OR yet another hassle that takes time away from herself, her husband, and her children. Doesn’t sound like a very liberating tradition to me!
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JustaJew
March 24th, 2009
4:13 pm
Oh, btw, the Boy Scouts being a faith-based organization is absolutely fine with me as long as they receive no federal funding….
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JustaJew
March 24th, 2009
4:19 pm
AW, I agree with everything you just said and it comes down to tenet number 2 of modern America, HE DID IT, NOT ME!!!!. The lack of personal responsibility is the culprit. An offshoot of that is lack of self control. Sure I’ve got 2 boxes of thin mints in my freezer right now and I know if I eat a whole box, it’ll definitely not be good for me, so I may eat a couple after dinner or when watching a movie, etc. In other words, I’ve got the self control to not scarf down a dozen at a time. That seems to be missing in people these days…now it’s someone else’s fault. “Well, if they didn’t sell the damn things in front of every Wal-mart, grocery store and Blockbuster then I wouldn’t buy it. It’s THEIR fault for shoving them in my face at all hours of the day” you know, b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t like that….
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JustaJew
March 24th, 2009
4:23 pm
in continuance AW,
when I used to fundraise for my peewee football league (boy that was a long time ago), I’d actually have to WALK, WALK I TELL YA! from door to door and, shocker of shockers, I wasn’t accompanied by an adult but only with another member of my football team. I learned self-reliance and a sense of responsibility. It’s like a child isn’t allowed to do ANYTHING for themselves anymore…for crying out loud, parents are calling their “child’s” college professors to complain about how unfair their child is being treated…
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American Woman
March 24th, 2009
4:35 pm
JJ, yeah… I try to put my foot down and say, “Handle it yourself!” most of the time. The only way to learn is to clean up your own mess and carry your own load. The expectations on modern women are immense, though. (I’m not a man, so I’ll let y’all speak for yourselves.) It feels like we’re supposed to do and be all things to everybody at all times. I know women juggling everything while still looking fabulous and smiling, but they scare me. Tick tick tick tick…. The technology that was supposed to make life easier really just mandated that we do more! We should say “NO!” more readily, but of course, others pull the guilt thing and the peer pressure. “All the other moms made time…” So, add yet another thing to my to-do list! One day I suppose I’ll miss the chaos and get tired of the peace and quiet [that allegely comes] in the “golden years.” If I make it that far.
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Gale
March 24th, 2009
4:45 pm
There are some in the child behavior study arena that claim children learn self control from unstructured (not the same as unsupervised) play, not from structured games or TV or video games. This was a point I tried to make last week when I couldn’t post. Kids under 8 should not be competing in structured events, be it pagents or little league. They are barely to the point of accepting team sport rules and the idea that they do not win every time and we want them to compete? Not yet, say I. Let them play neighborhood rules in made up games for a while.
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JustaJew
March 24th, 2009
7:24 pm
Gale,
I agree wholeheartedly! Who doesn’t remember just getting up on a summer morning, going outside with your friends and not coming back til the streetlights came on (seems to be the universal sign for “It’s time to go home”). Try telling a parent to let their kid do that today. You’d be quietly talked about behind your back at best and have socail services called on you at worst. What happened to our society? I was given the go out to play but don’t talk, look, or even come close to engaging anyone you don’t know and if they try to engage you, you scream your head off yelling FIRE, FIRE! speech. I was given the speech everyday before I went out to play. Now, there’s no such thing as unstructured play. TOO DANGEROUS!!! Baloney! It’s safer now than it was when we were kids (there’s just more exposure of the unfortunate crimes). If parents would spend more time being parents to their kids instead of trying to be friends, then maybe we wouldn’t have this kind of thing going on today.
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Gale
March 25th, 2009
7:55 am
JustaJew, My rule was whistle range. If I could not hear my dad whistle -and it was loud- I could expect a spanking when I did get home. It happened once and it took me w while before I realized why I’d been spanked. That neighborhood friend was out of range. Too bad she had the neatest field to play in. On the other hand, there were plenty of kids and areas large enough for baseball and tag, and hide and seek. Of course, we didn’t have Nintendo or TV or air conditioning either, nor did my folks have the leisure or extra car to drive us around.
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The Other Jack
March 25th, 2009
9:55 am
Gale
My rule during the summer was the 5 o’clock rule. I had to be at home when my Mom got home from work. I could almost immediately leave, but at 5 PM, I had better be at home. This was a huge problem with the social calender of an 11 year old.
My old 24 inch bike was my restriction as to where I could go. If i could ride my bike there and get back home by 5, I was free to go or do what I wanted.
I would have never even considered letting my kids have that sort of freedom, but they were raised in Atlanta. I was raised in a small town. I wonder if small towns are still as open as they were?
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Gale
March 25th, 2009
10:51 am
TOJ, My brother had the bike rule. I always wanted the freedom my brother had.
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JustaJew
March 25th, 2009
12:01 pm
TOJ,
I can’t speak for all small towns but I live in a small town here in AZ and I can say for a near certainty that it is the same in this small town. You won’t find any children out on the weekends except at the ballparks where they are playing organized sports, not just playing (from what I’ve seen, even the siblings have to sit and watch the game with mom and dad instead of being able to play in the park). There are a few exceptions but just a few. We havea park in the neighborhood (a small one) and you might find as many as 5 kids there (out of a neighborhood of 350 homes!!!) so, yeah it’s really hard to find a kid out just enjoying themselves…
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Scalia
March 25th, 2009
12:58 pm
I grew up in a small town. My brother and I were hiking, riding bikes, playing Freeze Tag, Hide and Go Seek, camping, etc. all the time. My mother never worried because people all over town would call her and say that they saw us. And yes, we had to be home by the time the streetlights came on.
By doing all of this activity, we were tired and ready for bed. We weren’t as hyper because we burned off all of the excess energy. And punishment for us was to not let us go outside.
I took a group of 5th graders to Rock Eagle about three years ago. The first day, they hated being outside, they hated not having their electronic gadgets, walking, and hiking. By day two, their imaginations were going. They were having fun. They made up their own games with their own rules. It was great.
Lesson to parents: don’t buy them the games, cell phones, etc. Keep the computer in the living room, and send them outside. Hell, go outside with them. I loved playing Red Light with my parents.
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Gale
March 25th, 2009
1:10 pm
I heard a piece on NPR the other day about a program on teaching games to grade school kids. Imagine a generation that does not know how to play red light? They have paid “coaches” that get kids started during recesses by teaching them things like jump rope games. The “coach” described how kids would simply mill around during recesses, but now they run around and play, and also stay more focussed during class time. Kids always learned those games from one another, but now the older kids may not know the games, even if they can take time from their ipods and hand held games. They don’t need drugs, they need unstructured play time.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 26th, 2009
9:34 am
JustaJew,
but that logic America is a faith based goverment, you may have read this before somewhere…”We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
For you scholars of the constituiton, who recently wants to violate this? “Clause 3: No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.”
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Mara
March 26th, 2009
9:55 am
“they are endowed by their Creator…”
a ‘creator’ that is just as likely to be the Flying Spaghetti Monster as it is to be Jesus’ Daddy. As likely to AhPuch or Vishnu. Or Amun-Re. Or even Odin himself. Could even be a pantheon, or a duality.
And THAT’S why government shouldn’t get entangled with religion…even in the relatively passive way it does now through the tacit acceptance of a singular “Creator” or “God”.
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The Other Jack
March 26th, 2009
11:21 am
Mara – a ‘creator’ that is just as likely to be the Flying Spaghetti Monster as it is to be Jesus’ Daddy.
Does that really matter? It’s all about how we treat each other and for centuries, how we treated each other was all about what our religion taught us. Civil laws were taken from religious teachings. Yes, there are always a zealot who uses religion wrongly, but religion teaches us to treat others justly.
The eradication of religion from public society takes away that teaching. The shootings that are taking place in the zoom-zoom lounge parking lot is not taking place in the First Baptist Church parking lot. Religion has a use and a purpose.
Look at the past few posts. We are talking about how with modern society, a parent has to highly restrict our children’s movement during the day. This is caused because of a much more dangerous and course culture that embraces open sex, drug abuse and abhors moral teachings.
If you want to get rid of religion, you had better have a replacement that will act as a blueprint for mutual respect and honesty, but no one is doing that and our culture continues to nose dive.
Religion is pretty much gone as an influence in our school systems and our culture in general. How do you think that is working out so far?
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Frustrated
March 26th, 2009
11:25 am
I totally agree about being a parent first, friends later….but have you not seen the news??? Parents can’t do anything remotely close to how our parent’s disciplined us. I got spanked…..with a paddle….made by my dad….as I was bent over to touch my toes. Granted, I got to the count of 3 as a warning to straighten up, but can you imagine if someone saw that today???? We would have DFCS called on us in a heart beat. Where did spankings go in school????? I would totally sign the consent form that told them they have a right to give my kid a swipe if he was rude/being a brat/not listening/bullying/etc
I live in a small town, I have to run to the mom and pop shop to grab some milk occassionally… But do you think I can leave my tot in the car (with it running) for 10 seconds while I run in????? No, all it would take is someone to see my baby in the car, me not there and I get children’s services called on me… And for those of you who are not parents….sometimes it gets really aggrivating hauling kids in and out of the car for a 2 minute pit stop to pick up something. Especially when they do not want to get back IN the car….but would rather run around in the store..
As far as the small town thing, I would NEVER in my life let my kids roam off around the neighborhood….Not because of them, but because of all the creepos in the world. My baby loves to play outside, and for that, we go out every day the weather is nice….Either we dig up rocks, she plays in her little house while I sit and read (I do believe in letting them have their own imagination)…or it is both of us sitting on the ground blowing bubbles or scribbling with sidewalk chalk.
A lot of rights have been taken away from the parents, so as much as I would say it is ALL placed at the feet of the parents, it isn’t. It is every other wolf cryer who turns in innocent parents and putting the fear of having their kids swiped away…that is why you don’t see kids out…that is why everyone is inside, together…. they don’t want peeping suzie next door to know their every move so that she can call them out on something she doesn’t agree with.
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Gale
March 26th, 2009
11:44 am
I lay the blame on too many lawyers, and judges who refuse to toss out cases with no merit, not the lack of religion in schools. We let people sue a teacher for disciplining a child because the child was misbehaving and ‘that’ parent did not agree that the child should be spanked. The school system caved in and removed the option of spanking. Oh, and while they were at it, they took away the right of a teacher to hug a child because that might be seen as inappropriate touching. So, the system is not sued anymore, but discipline goes to heck in a handbasket. We get a couple public cases of a parent neglecting a kid, or a neighbor disciplining a neighborhood child and suddenly, we are all afraid of the role adults have carried for ages; that of supervising the care and teaching of children. We no longer have the village raising children.
I don’t want the schools teaching religion to a child. That is a parental responsibility. If they fail, that poor child will have to learn moral and ethical behavior from other adults in his environment. But if the other adults are afraid to speak to the child because they might be sued or end up in jail, it is the children and our entire society that suffers. The only tool we have to teach ethics to children in the absence of parental guidence is a just society. When the news is filled with politicians breaking or hedging laws and the adults are seen to be rounding disrepecting those in authority, what does the child learn? We have only our actions left with which to teach children.
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Mara
March 26th, 2009
11:54 am
TOJ – if you want to get rid of religion
but I don’t want to ‘get rid of religion’. I just want my government to keep its nose out of it. And for religion to keep its grubby paws off of my government.
As for having a ‘blueprint for mutual respect and honesty’, there already IS one that’s almost universal whether you’re talking about religion or basic human rights…Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
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American Woman
March 26th, 2009
12:48 pm
Are we discussing religion today?
“It’s all about how we treat each other…” I like that! Good tenet. Is that kind of like: “the love you take is equal to the love you make?” BTW, if you don’t mind me asking, how does that work for you personally? Do you treat EVERYONE the way you want to be treated, and do you reap the rewards of this? Or do you let it slide for the “undeserving,” and if so, how is that working out? (I’m really just curious, and would not want you to answer if it would embarrass you to be truthful. No biggie.)
“The eradication of religion from public society takes away that teaching. How so? The atheists I know adhere to the “treat others the way you want to be treated” philosophy almost religiously. To them, it’s about having personal integrity and honor, not about what an invisible cloud man in the sky, or the congregation down the street thinks. The atheists I know are pretty decent, but you might know different atheists.
“The shootings that are taking place in the zoom-zoom lounge parking lot is not taking place in the First Baptist Church parking lot.” Really? I’ll bet that’s news to the folks at the First Baptist Church in Maryville, Ill, the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, the St. Thomas Syrian Orthodox Knanaya Church in Clifton NJ, the Living Church of God in Brookfield, Wis, the LDS Church in Lehi, UT, the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, the First Congregational Church in Neosho, Mo, the Ministry of Jesus Christ church in North Baton Rouge, and the Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church in Detroit. Just sayin’.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 26th, 2009
12:54 pm
Good logic there Mara! Goverment shouldn’t be INVOLVED, but Scouts can AND SHOULD BE! JesusKiller Jr. was trying to say the Girls Scouts were in fact faith based, which they once were, but are no longer. They are a sad shadow of what they once had been.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 26th, 2009
1:16 pm
Atheists are not really atheist, they are just too lazy to follow God’s word. They want to smoke thier pot, or have relations with this person or that, and maybe do something goood for someone, if they get around to it. Liberals are much the same. They want GOVERMENT to take care of every problem.
Oh, I just remembered1 Barry is going to lower from 40% to 28% the tax deduction of your charitible contributions. Christians give 10% to the church, he is no Christian! He must be muslim? What do you think? He loves the call to prayer, he can quote the Koran in Arabic and he married a woman the looks like a camel. I love the way democrats think that when a tax reduction expires, it’s not a tax increase! They are lazy just like atheists.
Kimberly, you’re a {DUMBASS!} Just saying….
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Gandalf, the White!
March 26th, 2009
1:19 pm
I have to carry a gun when walking my dog, to many illegal mexicans running around.
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Gale
March 26th, 2009
1:23 pm
I would like to see the scouts separated from the church. However, apparently they need a universal sponser so they have places to meet. I am not sure why that needs to be religious groups except they ussually have accessible space not otherwise committed most of the week. The scouts would have lots of favorable things to teach boys and girls without religion. It really is possible to teach morals and ethics without the religious aspects. From my brief exposure, most scout troops don’t delve into religion anyway.
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Margret
March 26th, 2009
1:23 pm
I am outraged at what I have to go through! I had my home visit, I agreed to spay and neuter, microchip, I took their advice on a vet and on puppy food. I agreed to home visits in the future and to give them back to the rescue if I couldn’t keep them for any reason. Now this is enough…they are MY dogs! I have established a strong relationship with the local animal hospital and I’ve taken excellent care of them yet the micochip contact information lists the rescue as the primary contact and not the name of the other dog owner. It lists the rescues address and not ours. I had no say in when they would be spayed and neutered….the vet said not before 6 months for large dogs but the rescue had it done at 4 months. We signed a binding contract but had no idea the were so unreasonable. These puppies are part of OUR family!!
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Mara
March 26th, 2009
1:26 pm
Gandy, sorry ’bout that…I guess I didn’t read the thread carefully enough. (shrug) As a privately funded and privately run group, the Scouts have every right to espouse (or eschew) any doctrine that they please.
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Gale
March 26th, 2009
1:31 pm
Gandalf, I must counter with an assertion that many Christians follow “God’s word” because they are too lazy to think for themselves. It comforts them to think there is a set of rules that will grant them immunity from any failure of conscience or will. I’ve know a good many nasty Christians.
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The Other Jack
March 26th, 2009
1:33 pm
AW
First, can you respond to anything without sounding completely out of control hysterical? Damn, I’ll bet you are a hard person to be around.
I knew someone would come up with what, 10 or twelve examples of violence in churches out of the millions and millions of churches in the US. However, just about every dive bar has had some sort of violence and/or shooting in them, so please explain your point. Millions and millions of churches with no problems so you attempt to prove a point by listing a dozen. Congratulations, your point is, as usual, pointless and without merit.
I’m not about to waste time trying to try to prove that this culture is more course and dishonest than the culture was when religion had a bigger footprint. You probably need that proven to you, but it’s not something that I would want to tackle.
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Gale
March 26th, 2009
1:49 pm
I still say the problem is not that religion has a smaller footprint, to use your analogy, TOJ. Many of those examples of bar shootings involve church going people, men usually, but not exclusively. The problem is out of control people who have never learned self control. Lawyers and politicians make it worse by trying to make us believe that everything is the fault of someone else. Churches may, or may not help parishioners gain self control. It depends an awful lot on the message. You may get perspective by listening reflectively in church on Sunday while someone else gains perspective meditating in a yoga class, or even while biking through the countryside. Self control is exactly that. Self control cannot be imposed from the outside.
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Mara
March 26th, 2009
2:07 pm
TOJ – Millions and millions of churches with no problems
um…don’t you mean ‘no REPORTED’ problems? Because we still don’t know the entire scope of the Catholic/pedophile priest scandal, nor do we know the scope of reported abuse within seminaries and orphanages run by the Church. We have no way of knowing how many pastors have skimmed from the offering plate, how many have had affairs, how many drink and gamble and look at pornography. We don’t know how many parishiners have killed, stolen, beaten their wives, or raped their girlfriends. There’s just no provable basis for your assertion that an overtly religious society is ‘better’.
It always bothers me when people insist that “this culture is more course and dishonest than the culture was when religion had a bigger footprint”. When, in all probability, society hasn’t changed all that much…people are just more open about it and news travels faster.
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American Woman
March 26th, 2009
2:24 pm
Jack, I can’t fathom how you think I’m hysterical. I asked a couple of questions and made a couple of observations. Can’t imagine what’s happening in your life that you’d interpret this as hysteria, but I note (and respect)your reticence re: the tenet questions.
YOU mistakenly asserted that shootings are not happening in church parking lots. One might wonder what the point of your assertion was in the first place? Violence happens every day in places where people “didn’t think it could happen here.” There are thousands of “dive bars” where shootings do not occur as well. At least one of those congregations was attacked by a self-professed conservative who was so angry at “liberals” he had to shoot somebody. “Sinners” come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and religious affiliations. If you’d like to argue that, I invite you most graciously to knock yourself out.
Did you have a point?
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The Other Jack
March 26th, 2009
3:58 pm
Mara
You’re right. I’m sure there are lots of shootings in churches that just aren’t reported. Probably happens all the time.
That’s a nonsense argument. Bad things can happen anywhere at anytime, but considering that on this very forum, you and several others said that pornography would never exploit girls and young women, pardon me for not accepting that extremely thin argument for condemning churches especially considering the good that they have done and do on a daily basis.
It is a huge mantra of liberalism: Condemn anyone who doesn’t think like you. Never, ever consider the beliefs or convictions of anyone if their convictions do not agree with your and the secular mantra. All others are evil. All others are bad. So it is a given that all people with religious convictions must be bad. Evil things must be happening in church which we are not being told about.
Gale
Simply not true that it is church going people shooting people in bar parking lots on Saturday night. That myth went away in 1965. I have worked in bars my entire life and I have yet to hear anyone claiming to get up the next day so they could go to church.
People may get enlightenment from other sources on occasion, but the vast majority of people got their moral teachings from church. I know that no one here will agree that church serves no good purpose. That’s a given. No one here has ever given an inch of consideration for the religious convictions of anyone, while insisting that others change entire dictionaries before discussions can be carried out on subjects that they care about.
You can deny it all you want but if the rare instance of an incident in a church is your only defense that secularism results in the same kind of civil society as a more religious one, then you don’t have much of an argument.
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The Other Jack
March 26th, 2009
4:01 pm
AW
Yes, I had a point. But you insist that churches and biker bars must have the same amount of violence. So what could I say to that other than shake my head, roll my eyes and say, “Got it, you are right again.” LOL!!
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Wiki Bits
March 26th, 2009
4:07 pm
Paranoia is a thought process characterized by excessive anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat towards oneself. In the original Greek, παράνοια (paranoia) simply means madness (para = outside; nous = mind). Historically, this characterization was used to describe any delusional state.
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Gale
March 26th, 2009
4:08 pm
I’m just saying that bar room shootings are not good examples of behavior. People who have been drinking are not making the best judgements even when they do have religious training. I don’t really care what the basis of anyone’s self control, just that they need to learn self control. I contend that children learn self control during unstructured play. I think they can learn that control even if they never step foot in a church. If a child does have religious training, it still depends a lot on the adult behavior the child witnesses how the teaching will be assimilated.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 26th, 2009
4:15 pm
Yeah, but the biker bar has better whiskey, all churches have is a little wine. So, where are we on this? More fun to get shot in a biker bar than in church? Which has the funeral and which has the wake again?
Gale, Churches sponser many Boy Scout Troops/Cub Scout Packs, but it’s not exclusive. Churches generally have a young male population they don’t want going to hell in a hand basket. Oh and they get to play with knifes and fires too! And shoot firearms and bow and arrow, and lots of other kewl stuff! You just have to believe in a supreme being to be a Boy Scout, that’s all! Many VFW’s and American Legions sponser Troops. As you can’t separate morality and a supreme being I think it’s a good idea to keep the together!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 26th, 2009
4:16 pm
Mara, Christians aren’t better than you, they are just going to Heaven! Quit judging so harshly!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 26th, 2009
4:18 pm
Even Muslims and Mormons can be Boy Scouts! (They believe in God, they just have flawed believe systems)
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American Woman
March 26th, 2009
4:18 pm
Please point out the sentence I used to “insist that churches and biker bars must have the same amount of violence.” I didn’t. I pointed out that churches are not immune to violence as per YOUR assertion. If you’re attempting to make the point that the practice of religion removes the propensity to sin from the effected population, you’ll have to present more compelling evidence than your personal belief that no legitimate argument exists.
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Gale
March 26th, 2009
4:27 pm
Gandalf, “Many VFW’s and American Legions sponser Troops.” Since I am not very knowledgeable here, it still seems like a big part of the sponsership is a place for a large group to meet regularly. It makes sense to me that it would be a service organization. I’m glad it is not the exclusive province of a church.
I used to have an aquaintaince who was a church member although he was an atheist. His rational for lying to the church about it was that they were doing service functions that he wanted to be a part of. Atheists don’t have an organized group where he could accomplish the same things in the community.
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The Other Jack
March 26th, 2009
4:30 pm
Gale
What I am saying is that when religion was more prevalent in our society, there was less crime and people felt generally safer. I personally think that the two issues (religion and safety / secularism and more crime) are related. Religion was taken out of schools and the public view at the same time that crime rates escalated, family structure deteriorated and our culture became more coarse.
Anyone CAN learn good behavior anywhere, but please name a single place where they DO learn good behavior on a regular basis. Our schools are a disaster. Babies are having babies. We have had to kill off a tenth of our excess population.
Everyone, including you were talking about how much more freedom kids had when we were young. Why do you think our culture has gone through that kind of change? Why is it more dangerous now for kids? We have taken moralism out of children’s education. Yes, they might stumble over it and learn it through some sort of epiphany, but training of the golden rule is taking place where?
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American Woman
March 26th, 2009
4:49 pm
Gale mentioned earlier that “We no longer have the village raising children.” I think this is a rock that both sides fling across the fence at each other. On one hand, conservatives pine for the old days when the neighbors would keep an eye out, tattle to your folks, or take matters into their own hands when necessary. “Kids were safer then.” But when a “lib” writes a book espousing the values of looking after the childen in a community, suddenly concerned citizens are buttinsky socialists trying to tell people how to raise their kids. Personally, I don’t care to fling that blame rock back and forth. I know dozens of kids in my community, and they know I’m there for them. They know I’ll tell them the truth (even when their parents won’t), and they know they can come to my house when there’s trouble afoot — even (and especially) when that trouble is Daddy and he’s angry with beer on his breath again. Say what you will about that; I make no apology.
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The Other Jack
March 26th, 2009
7:22 pm
Aw
So you think that the reason why children can’t do the things we did is because the entire town doesn’t have disciplinary actions over everyone’s children? Do you live on this planet? My mother and father are the only people who told me what to do.
Culture as a whole has changed. it’s not a matter of throwing rocks. Liberals have insisted that religion be taken out of anything that would influence our children. As liberals tend to do, they didn’t think this one through very well and now there is no training for children except what they get on TV. You are looking at the results everytime you see the unwed birthrate, the crime rates and the coarseness of our society.
Now what about that birthrate, that crime and that coarseness did they learn in church, AW? You guys insist on it, so at least take responsibility for what you have done.
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Mara
March 27th, 2009
7:25 am
You’re right. I’m sure there are lots of shootings in churches that just aren’t reported.
That wasn’t my argument and you know it. MY point was that crime happens in churches as much as it happens anywhere else, contrary to your assertion that *all* church folk are pious, decent people who do no wrong.
I do find it interesting that the prisons are FULL of people who claim to be believers, yet agnostics and atheists (those whom you claim have ruined everything), comprise less than 1% of incarcerated criminals.—
you and several others said that pornography would never exploit girls and young women
Again, that was never said and you darn well know it. Yes, the assertion was made that pornography doesn’t necessarily involve children nor exploiting women…which you insisted is the norm, not the exception. But nobody has EVER said that it NEVER happens.
So it is a given that all people with religious convictions must be bad.
Hyperbole much? I can, off the top of my head, name at least three VERY religious people that I hold in the highest of esteem…the Dalai Lama, Mother Theresa, and my second-best friend. There are even people who used to post here (like Monica, JBM, and Renee) that I have the utmost respect for, even though they held beliefs that I found occasionally baffling. Christianists are universally contemptable, as are Islamists, and other extremists. But I DO know some very respectable christians, muslims, hindus, wiccans, and universalists. It isn’t the belief system, nor the level of religiosity that make one ‘bad’. It’s what you do with those beliefs.
when religion was more prevalent in our society, there was less crime and people felt generally safer
The operable word here is ‘felt’. People ‘felt’ safer. Pre-9/11, people FELT safer, too. Of course, on September 12th they were no less safe than they were on September 10th, but it didn’t FEEL that way.
And IF there actually was less crime in the olden days, it might have been because fewer things were considered criminal. Certainly drunk driving wasn’t a crime. Nor was raping your wife. Heck, you could legally beat her and the kids black and blue and nobody would fault you. And wasn’t lynching and terrorism was acceptable in the south, as long as it was against the blacks? And racism was preached from the pulpit as the right and proper thing? THESE are the days you’re romanticizing?!
And I don’t doubt that there were fewer criminals, because there were fewer PEOPLE. It’d be interesting to know what the percentages were of criminals to general population. Now that number would at least be some kind of solid evidence of your assertion, as opposed to your feelings of dire peril.
Liberals have insisted that religion be taken out of anything that would influence our children
Again…lie, lie, and lie. I’d like to see where ‘liberals’ have “insisted that religion be taken out of”…television – one of the biggest influences on our children (televangelists don’t exist?! then exactly who IS Creflo Dollar, TD Jakes, and Joel Osteen?), out of education (No parochial schools, no Christian Clubs, no bibles in your locker?!), out of the law (What? Sell beer on SUNDAY?! EGAD!), and out of…what else? Tell me, TOJ, in what field does religion NOT have access?
All the ‘liberals’ have done is insist that if you want your children indoctrinated into a religion…that’s YOUR choice and your responsibility.
————————————————————————
Gandy – Christians aren’t better than you, they are just going to Heaven!
LOL! No doubt
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Gale
March 27th, 2009
7:56 am
Mara, I agree with everything in your 7:25 this morning. Go get ‘em.
TOJ, “Everyone, including you were talking about how much more freedom kids had when we were young. Why do you think our culture has gone through that kind of change? “
Well I don’t think it has anything to do with removing religion from the public schools, as I have plainly said. I would first point at the entitlement attitude encouraged by a welfare state and too many lawyers, and judges without the clout to toss out cases with no merit.
Perhaps more first line magistrates would ease that last problem. Magistrate: “What, you want to sue the teacher for putting your child in the hall because it hurt his self esteem? Teacher, why did you do that?” Teacher: “Because the child struck me after I told him to stop kicking the child in front of him during a test.” Magistrate: “Parents, I think you need to apologize to the teacher and teach your child to behave in class. Next case!”
Jack, I have no problem with churches and I don’t care if people worship and study the Bible or “good book” of choice every day of the week. I just don’t want public observance of religion in a public classroom.
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Andy the welcher
March 27th, 2009
8:08 am
Yep it’s all Obama’s fault, and the rebounding of the last few days? All because of the GOP and thier policy of “NO” (or should it be NON?)
I especially love the whining about spending money on disabled persons. That 12 billion would be much better utilized in an “abstinence only” program, or in the hands of “faith based” charities…
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Andy the welcher
March 27th, 2009
8:11 am
“You are looking at the results everytime you see the unwed birthrate”
I guess Bristol Palin is a libural?
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Andy the welcher
March 27th, 2009
8:17 am
I guess the answer here lies in the conservative court system of GA. Where it’s as easy to dispell a marraige as it is to get a wart removed. Only the wart (being the father) gets no rights, just financial obligations and a small small percentage of the childrens time at the mother’s pleasure.
Anybody want to pull up the stats on children without fathers active in thier lives? I would love to know why conservatives RAIL on about unwed mothers, but ignore fatherless children from divorce? Fatherless because that’s how the conservative courts make it that way. No say in medical care or lack of, no say in religious upbringing or lack of, no say in extra curriculars or lack of, no say in anything, just financial obligations codified and absolute, with none of the other rights or joys associated with fatherhood. This is the legacy of conservative divorce law. Why do conservatives hate dads?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
8:54 am
For those that care, “The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.”
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The Other Jack
March 27th, 2009
9:03 am
OK guys, I get it.
People in prisons are almost always Christians. So I suppose those big yards are for prayer meetings.
The rise in crime since the 50s is all in my imagination. There was just as much crime but people just didn’t tell. I guess people are faking the murder rate increase.
Since Sarah Palin’s daughter was pregnant, all sins are now the fault of Conservatives. that’s good to know.
And it wasn’t liberals that insisted that religion be taken out of schools. In fact I now remember that it wasn’t a liberal atheist that fought to have it done, I think it was a missionary.
Got it.
Now excuse me while I board this big old spaceship and head on back to the good old planet earth.
You guys are one laugh after another.
And Mara, the argument that day was in fact that you and several others said that women and children are never exploited in the porn business. You covered yourself by saying that child porn was not actually the real porn industry.
Once again, you don’t really take a stance. You just argue,
Let’s approach this from a different tac. So why should have religion be taken out of schools? It was deeply embedded in schools for 200 years before the divine atheist insisted that it be taken out. Why was that important after 200 years? Could the SCOTUS just not read? Was the Constitution a different document back then?
Please explain to me why it became incredibly important?
I would ask other questions about crime and the coarseness of our society, but apparently, all is just fine. There is no more crime and children are just as safe as they always have been. Liberalism WORKS. And hasn’t it been GREAT for our society.
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Mara
March 27th, 2009
9:07 am
Thanks, Gale. Just as a by the bye…nobody has ‘removed religion from public schools’. All that has happened is that teachers and other figures of authority who represent the ’state’ are no longer allowed to advocate their belief on shool time…student-led prayer, faith-based extra-curricular groups, one-on-one proselytizing, and the students handing out religious flyers are all very much alive in the public school setting.
Andy – I guess Bristol Palin is a libural?
heh, heh, heh.
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Gale
March 27th, 2009
9:20 am
And yet, if those unused embryos were not used, they would be –with respect– tossed in the trash. This is just a path into another round of abortion in any form is evil.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
9:22 am
Bristol Palin in a liberal? Maybe so, what does that have to do with her being a slut that doesn’t take precation? Nothin’ Did you all forget, sex is for procreation….
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
9:33 am
Liberals like Barry, Clinton, and Biden don’t give very much to Charity, Conservatives give a lot. Just look at Mr. McCain for example. So conservatives care about people, and liberals don’t. THEY THINK (well the have a mental defect, so not very clearly) the GOVERMENT will fix all social ills! Liberalism is truly a mental disorder!
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The Other Jack
March 27th, 2009
9:45 am
Mara – All that has happened is that teachers and other figures of authority who represent the ’state’ are no longer allowed to advocate their belief on shool time…student-led prayer, faith-based extra-curricular groups, one-on-one proselytizing, and the students handing out religious flyers are all very much alive in the public school setting.
AH, so now it is left to the kids to teach morals. And isn’t that working out really well. Thanks for the clarification.
But strangely enough, you didn’t answer my central question: Why ws it necessary that it be changed? What was the HOPE for the CHANGE? Why would liberals, (sorry, not liberals, more like you people here, who of course would never be considered a liberal) want religion taken out of our schools (sorry, not taken out of our schools, but turned over to the students, or whatever you are claiming today).
So what was the reason? And where do you think kids get their morals and character training? It is prohibited in public schools, so where do they get their training, now?
And of course that lack of training for the past 25 years has absolutely no effect on our culture. The crime rate increase is imagined and the unwed mother rate is actually a good thing. So see? I’m really happy about all those good things that liberalism has taught us all. I just can’t wait for when our incredibly efficient government gets to tell executives how much money they can make. Wasn’t the AIG stuff GREAT!!!! I think Unions should show up at people’s homes threatening their children. I think the kids deserved it. Hell, they probably had nice clothes. Somebody get a rope.
Yep. Liberalism. We are definitely on the right track, now. I have to go, now. I need to listen to our incredibly smart president who is going to tell us a new strategy about sending tens of thousands of troops into Afghanistan. “The situation is increasingly perilous.” And now he is talking about terrorists wanting to kll Americans. Wow. This is new. Too bad Bush never thought of that.
But this isn’t about fear, like with those mean old Republicans, this is about HOPE.
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Laughing
March 27th, 2009
9:48 am
Anyone who says that human life begins at conception is being downright silly. There is no basis, factual or rational, for such an outlandish claim.
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Buddesatva
March 27th, 2009
9:51 am
Obama was correct. His decision is based on science and ethical judgement. The Bush administration was ossified by bumper sticker dogma.
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Mara
March 27th, 2009
9:55 am
you and several others said that women and children are never exploited in the porn business.
Oh, please. I double-dog dare you to search out the quote (with link, please) where any one of us said that pornographers **NEVER** exploit women or children. Sheesh.
It’s absolutely impossible to have any conversation with you when you get like this. You say that I “don’t really take a stance. You just argue”. This is factually, provably false. I think that pretty much anyone here can name at least two issues I’m adamant about.
but just for you, here are some of my ’stances’ –
a woman’s body is her own and she can, if she chooses, terminate a pregancy for ANY reason.
Because religion is so diverse and divisive, it belongs in the church not in public policy.
I do not believe that there is a God, but I could be wrong.
People should be free to do as they please (as long as it doesn’t harm the rest of us) but businesses and corporations need to be watched and regulated.
I support the Fair Tax.
I support decriminalizing marijuana.
I believe illegal aliens should be tracked down and deported.
I believe that the Founders expected society to progress and built into the Constitution enough ambiguity to provide structure without restricting moral growth.
I believe that children are usually smelly, messy, unmannerly, annoying, and should be seen, not heard.
That zydeco shouldn’t be considered ‘music’.
That all animals should be treated gently and with kindness, most especially those we intend to kill and eat.
I believe that most people mean well.
I believe that there are smart people and stupid people, but most of us fall somewhere in between.
I believe that you are responsible for your own happiness, nobody can ‘make’ you happy.
I think that “In fact…” is one of the most misused phrases in any language.
And lastly, I believe that saying ‘always’ or ‘never’ is very, VERY seldom accurate.
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Michael
March 27th, 2009
10:02 am
I agree with “Laughing,” life does not begin at conception, the biology of it simply says so. If we judge the end of life by when our hearts stop beating, shouldn’t we start life when our hearts START beating? Just an idea. I do however think it is sick and twisted that people do not think having an abortion at 6 months or so is not murder.
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JNo
March 27th, 2009
10:04 am
Obama was definitely not correct. Describing his decision as “based on science and ethical judgement” couldn’t be further from the truth. There is nothing ethical about embryos dying so that we have the *potential* to cure certain diseases. It’s definitely far from ethical. And it is as political as Bush’s decision to do the opposite. Don’t kid yourselves.
I think that thinking life doesn’t begin at conception is downright silly. The fact that you can sit here and argue this point is only because you weren’t aborted or harvested for embryonic cells. There’s nothing outlandish about the claim at all. What’s outlandish are the laughable attempts by some to arbitrarily determine on their own when they think “life” should begin.
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Jason
March 27th, 2009
10:07 am
Uhm, abortion is still legal in the USA and most people want it to stay that way.
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Lamar
March 27th, 2009
10:08 am
Re: Bloomberg article today – advances in using skin cells. Bush is gone, people. Obama will stand or fail on his own. He is not the anti-Bush for goodness’ sake.
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Outside1
March 27th, 2009
10:10 am
Laughing. If your life didn’t begin at conception, when did it begin? Aren’t you glad that your mother decided to let your life continue instead of discarding you as unwanted trash?
Gale. Abortion is tragic. First because women are in such a desperate position that abortion seems to be the best or only solution. And second because a human life is not given the opportunity to thrive.
I’ve often wondered how many great men and women who could have enriched our world and made it a better place to live had their lives snuffed out through abortion. If we don’t value people at their most immature and vulnerable state, how then can we value people as adults? Every life has meaning and every life has purpose. We who hold the power over those lives must accept our great responsibility to protect them and provide them the opportunity flourish.
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Blah
March 27th, 2009
10:11 am
While neither of these presents a very deep argument for either side. I would agree that “life” would begin at conception. It always comes down to how you define “life.” And at conception, you are diploid (two sets of chromosomes) and are differentiating/dividing (in other word growing), so in a biological sense your “life” began. But then again, unfertilized eggs are also living and die, yet no one sheds a tear.
I also do not like how people who argue against embryonic stem cell research always avoid or otherwise do not address the fact that “harvesting” a fetus does not mean that anyone is getting pregnant for the purpose of creating embryonic stem cells for use in research. The “harvesting” (which is a word that probably shouldn’t be used cause it leads to confusion) only occurs for fetuses that are aborted or plan to be aborted. I do not see the problem with letting that child’s gift of life be used to heal someone else instead of wasted.
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JNo
March 27th, 2009
10:11 am
That’s an excellent question. Although I doubt many atheists/agnostics will admit it, they do believe in an absolute truth. Otherwise their entire basis for describing good and evil, right and wrong doesn’t make any sense.
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Mara
March 27th, 2009
10:12 am
TOJ – Why? Because we-the-people now fund the public schools, including we-the-muslim, we-the-hindu, we-the-atheist, and we-the-humanist. What you refer as ‘religion once taught in school’ was actually ‘christianity that used to be pushed onto every child regardless of their own family beliefs’.
If you want your child to receive religious indoctrination in their education, send them to parochial school.
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JNo
March 27th, 2009
10:13 am
Hard to understand how we call what we’re searching for on Mars “life” even though microscopic, but we refuse to call what is conceived within us life.
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Steve
March 27th, 2009
10:18 am
Hey Laughing – When did you “become human”? Think about that for a while.
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The Frog in Hot Water » Daily Buzz
March 27th, 2009
10:25 am
[...] “Was President Obama right to reverse Bush’s stem cell policy?,” Andrea Cornell Sarvady and Shaunti Feldhahn, Atlanta Journal-Constitution (March 27, 2009) [...]
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JC
March 27th, 2009
10:33 am
I have Marfan syndrome, Celiac Disease and Asperger. I have a brain aneurysm and a thoracic aortic aneurysm, and possible lung cancer.
I would rather die with a clear conscience than use an immoral medical treatment.
The ends do not justify the means. You cannot defeat one evil by recourse to another evil. When an issue is “morally complex,” that just shows what happens when you adopt an “ends justify the means” philosophy.
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David
March 27th, 2009
10:33 am
Pres. Obama’s decision was 99% political. The 1% non-political is because he believes like many that there is potential benefit from ESCR. To make the decision non-political, it would have been a thoughtful, fact filled presentation, and perhaps a little later in his term after he straightens out the economy, war on terror, education, cost of healthcare, …
I believe the only limitation on ESCR was a restriction on US Federal funds. Pres. Obama’s announcement should have included an assessment of all the progress in ESCR done around the world without US federal funds. It should have also included the results from work on the lines permitted within Pres. Bush’s limitations. Pres. Obama should have also included in his assessment how the Bush limitations have hindered research progress and how the US is falling behind as a result. However, he didn’t include any of this in his announcement. I don’t know if that is because there is no data to present. But I don’t think he was concerned about actual research results, I think he was simply paying a political debt and making a political statement.
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The Other Jack
March 27th, 2009
10:36 am
Mara – a woman’s body is her own and she can, if she chooses, terminate a pregancy for ANY reason.
A pregnancy involves two bodies, two lives. Why would you believe that only one of those two bodies, two lives would have civil rights?
Mara – People should be free to do as they please (as long as it doesn’t harm the rest of us)
“Us” being the operative word. “them” or “IT” can be harmed at the whim of a woman, right?
Mara – but businesses and corporations need to be watched and regulated.
And who should be watching them? Our government? Our elected officials that are not professional business people, but the lowest form of human life: Politicians? Politicians should be watching my business? They should decide how much money I can make? Too bad some very wealthy limousine liberals haven’t been watched.
Mara – Because religion is so diverse and divisive, it belongs in the church not in public policy.
Why? And what has been the result of this stance over the past 25 years?
Mara – I believe that the Founders expected society to progress and built into the Constitution enough ambiguity to provide structure without restricting moral growth.
The Constitution as a living document, Huh? So you apparently forgot to chime in when others were saying that Bush was shredding the Constitution. He wasn’t shredding it, he was just letting it breath. But of course you hated Bush, so I guess the Constitution can only be alive if it is being driven by wise, kind people offering Hope and Change.
I don’t “get like this”. I’m like this every day that I need to deal with the double standards that liberals insist on. I’m like this every day when people like AW and you insist that churches are just as crime infested as slimy bars.
I think you are all good people, but I think you are indoctrinated. I think you are forbidden to think logically. I think you ignore logic and reason and any pointing out of historical parallels is strictly forbidden.
I don’t want to insult you. I like you and I like almost everyone here. But you avoid subjects that call your ridicules stances out. If I go back and find the exact wording to the porn stance (like I have already done for USinUK), what will your reaction be to a couple of hours of research? Will you even respond? I don’t think so.
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lovelyliz
March 27th, 2009
10:37 am
When you consider the totality of their legislation/regulations, in the bigger scheme of things who was more “pro-life” President Bush vs. President Obama?
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Baby vs Whale
March 27th, 2009
10:40 am
It’s amazing how calloused our world has become and how adamantly they hold to the bloody banner of abortion….It shows a disregard for life when many seem to embrace abortion as “the final solution” to one night stands, and then endorse the use of it’s “biproduct” for experimentation. Why not pursue Dr. Thomson’s breakthru in transforming the adult stem. Maybe it is pure greed on the part of researches that would find this additional step “cost prohibitive”….it’s just easier to take a dip into the bucket of aborted fetuses? I guess Hitler’s scientists justified his medical experimentation on what he deemed to be “sub-humans”. May God be merciful to us for arbitrarily determining when life begins and taking short cuts at the expense of the innocent human life.
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The Other Jack
March 27th, 2009
10:50 am
We should definitely experiment on Embryos. Embryonic Stem cells have never worked while the stem cell research that Bush pushed, Placental stem cell research has saved thousands of lives. But there is no Hope or Change in the working science.
Definitely a good thing, just like the way all this Hope and Change is going to get us out of an unwanted war. Man, I’m glad we finally have an honest, smart person in the White House.
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Gale
March 27th, 2009
10:51 am
So many interesting points to counter. Michael at 10:02. To bookend life with a measureable identifier? Since we can sustain a life by artificial means and sometimes bring the person back to a healthy state, how about using brain function instead? I don’t know when we see measurable brain function for a fetus, but I am pretty sure it can be measured. And while I would not call it murder, I do think abortions after the second trimester are tragic. The tragedy is that some woman had to make that painful decision. It is never an easy decision regardless of what the anti-abortion fanatics want to claim.
To several in the ‘every life is sacred’ camp: I believe in reincarnation. I honestly think that if a future life was stopped so my cells might provide a cure or treatment for someone, I would consider that life well spent.
I read a very interesting opinion a few weeks ago in a column for faith-based opinions. The person was discussing where the idea of ‘a human being with full rights begins when an egg is fertilized’. The idea was propsed by some major Catholic convention (I forget which paper was cited) in the 1600’s I think. Maybe I can track it down later. I looked it up at the time I read the article. It did not have broad backing then and clearly was not based on a passage in the Bible. Most of the world considered life to begin at ‘quickening’, which was when the fetus could be felt moving by the mother. I would say that is quite a few weeks after conception.
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Mara
March 27th, 2009
10:51 am
JNo – What’s outlandish are the laughable attempts by some to arbitrarily determine on their own when they think “life” should begin.
and exactly do you think YOU’RE doing when you insist that ‘life’ begins at conception? You are being just as arbitrary as those who insist that ‘life’ begins at viability, or at birth.
Outside1 – If your life didn’t begin at conception, when did it begin?
and exactly *when* does ‘conception’ occur? When the sperm peirces the egg wall? When the chromosomes mix? When the first division of cells occurs? When the fertilized egg implants on the uterine wall?
Conception is a process not a particular instant in time.
I, personally, think that which makes us ‘human’ manifests when we take our first breath. So I have no problem with a few cells in a petri dish being manipulated to, hopefully, provide treatments and cures for deseases that kill or debilitate real, breathing, autonomous human beings. But that’s MY opinion, and it’s highly subjective.
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Mara
March 27th, 2009
10:58 am
I guess Hitler’s scientists justified his medical experimentation on what he deemed to be “sub-humans”.
Wow. Godwin’s Law is proved so early today!
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Baby vs Whale
March 27th, 2009
11:02 am
Mara, I hope we learn from the past…
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Mara
March 27th, 2009
11:06 am
Baby vs Whale – Mara, I hope we learn from the past…
Yeah, wouldn’t that be nice…?
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bird5
March 27th, 2009
11:23 am
There is a group of physicians, patients and other interested people working together to get treatment with adult stem cells legalized in the U.S. as it should be. Please ask your family and friends to sign up (”JOIN”), and get as many doctors to sign up as well. See The American Stem Cell Therapy Association site at
http://www.stemcelldocs.org
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Baby vs Whale
March 27th, 2009
11:27 am
Mara, hopefully we’ll learn from our past.
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David
March 27th, 2009
11:27 am
Here is an excellent opinion of Pres. Obama’s decision by none other than ten members of the President’s Council on Bioethics.
http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethicsforum/Post.aspx?id=3298
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
11:32 am
Jason, what studies show that most people want abortion legal? I believe the Supreme Court ruled that it was legal, not a vote of the people.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
11:33 am
Gale, I agree they shouldn’t be thrown in the trash, they should be given a funeral.
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The Other Jack
March 27th, 2009
11:40 am
Mara
Godwin’s Law. Now would be a good time for you to read what Godwin’s Law actually said. It never discredited the comparisons, but just pointed out that a comparison to NAZIs will eventually be made during a political discussion. It really makes sense. Germany was taken over by a political mantra that gained control of a very active German Media and used class warfare and labor unions to turn the most educated and cultural country in the world into fascists. I personally think that every child should have at least a year of teaching about nothing but the History of the NAZI Party.
The lessons that Goebbels taught us can not be ignored, as much as the media controlling party in the US would have them ignored.
The lessons that Josef Mengele taught us cannot be forgotten as much as the party that insists that human experiments take place insist that those lessons are not relevant.
In times like these, I think that every TV network should be showing documentaries about the 1930s and the 1940s and go into great detail about the techniques the NAZIs used.
There are not many holocaust survivors left. The lessons they learned will be lost forever if we have such disdain for discussing what they went through. History is the ultimate teacher. When we conveniently exclude one of the darkest times in our history, we are destined to repeat that history.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
11:40 am
Remember, Barry thinks it OK to kill babies as they are coming out, or if an abortion fails to kill the baby, to kill it after it has been “surgically removed”. SO when he get’s his Nationalized Health Care in place, what is to stop him from no longer wasting dollar allocations on people say “OVER 78?” and not wasting dollar allocations to children with Down Syndrome? Then what next? 78 becomes 75, 75 becomes 70, 70 becomes 65. Children with this or that ailment are detected in the womb, and terminated, not by the parents, or “potential parents” but by the state run health care system. It’s slipperly slope this socialism.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
11:43 am
Heil Barry!
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lovelyliz
March 27th, 2009
11:45 am
“Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns…First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.”
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
11:56 am
Excerpt from Nightmares of our Fathers:
“I remember seeing Barry sitting on Monks Beach up on the North Shore of Oureading the communist manifesto smokin’ weed….he likes his Ganja, and he would never share it…”
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
11:57 am
When does viable life end?
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Gale
March 27th, 2009
12:12 pm
Liz, thanks for the 11:45 facts. I read something unrelated at lunch that described a 6 week old fetus as basically a tube about the size of a pea, with spinal column and blood system beginning to form, largely indistinguishable from other creatures at that stage. It is actually pretty interesting stuff.
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Mara
March 27th, 2009
12:12 pm
A pregnancy involves two bodies, two lives. Why would you believe that only one of those two bodies, two lives would have civil rights?
1) no person should be forced to give up their health or well-being for the benefit of another.
2) when ‘life’ begins is completely subjective.
And who should be watching them? Our government? They should decide how much money I can make?
I don’t know where you came up with the conclusion that ‘regulated and watched’ equates to the government saying how much money you can make. But yes, I do think that certain business practices should be illegal and punishable by law. I also think that enforcing fair labor practices, enviromental safety, and trading practices is the purview of regulators as well.
Because religion is so diverse and divisive, it belongs in the church not in public policy.– Why?
Why?! Look at Iraq. Look at India. Look at Pakistan and the old Yugoslavia. Look at HISTORY! ANY state that elevates one religion over another, that uses religious tenets instead of the rule of law, that says to its people “This belief is good and all others are bad”, these states end up torn by violence, bereft of freedom of thought and action, crushed under totalitarian dictators, and rife with abuse and cruelty.
So you apparently forgot to chime in when others were saying that Bush was shredding the Constitution. He wasn’t shredding it, he was just letting it breath
There is indeed room for interpretation within the Constitution, but what Bush did was NOT interpretation. What HE did was violate the First and Fourth Amendments, co-opt the responsibilities of the Legislative branch, overstepped the power of his office, and used the tools of the State to intimidate dissent.
But you avoid subjects that call your ridicules stances out
When I do that, it’s usually because you have so misquoted and rephrased my opinions that it’d take *way* more effort to set the record straight than i want to put into a blogpost. And you seldom admit that you may have been mistaken in your understanding. For example, you’re STILL insisting that I did say that pornographers NEVER harmed children or exploited women…when what was said was probably something on the order of “mainstream pornography doesn’t feature underage girls or coerce women into posing…”
either way…I DO get tired of correcting your misquotes and deliberate mischaracterizations so…yes, I DO refuse to get into it sometimes…
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
12:19 pm
We could hire teenage girls to come to our clinic, get knocked up by one of our “knockers”, hold the “Festus” in her womb for 6 weeks, then suck it our with a medical Hoover or Dirt Devil and harvest them thar stem cells! How much should we pay them! The time is right! Crisis mean Opportunity!
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
12:20 pm
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Mara
March 27th, 2009
12:31 pm
TOJ, Godwin’s Law says that the LONGER the thread the more likely the comparison to Hitler or Nazi’s becomes. My point was that the comparison came much EARLIER than usual.
As for the Hitler comparison itself, we’re far less likely to lose the lessons of the Holocaust through the ignoring of history than we are through trivializing it. Which we do by speciously labling ANY action we might find repugnant as “nazi-like” and those who participate in said actions as some sort of “Hitler”.
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Gale
March 27th, 2009
12:31 pm
I only mentioned six weeks because it was described in the article I read. The ESCR process uses embryos far less formed than six weeks. Other than supply eggs, women are not a part of the process at all. Once implanted, “science” has no desire to retrieve those embryos and everyone involved hopes they make it to term.
What you SHOULD worry about is the day science figures out how to reliably create embryos without sperm cells. I tell you, man, your days are numbered. (ominous spacey music)
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Mara
March 27th, 2009
12:45 pm
Gale – *What you SHOULD worry about is the day science figures out how to reliably create embryos without sperm cells.*
Well, maybe not without ’sperm cells’ but certainly without men…
“Last year, scientists proved that they could not only create sperm in a petri dish, but also use that sperm to fertilize a mouse egg.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4227604
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Gale
March 27th, 2009
1:02 pm
Mara, definitely without men. It requires a separate gene set to produce something other than a clone. But does that separate set really have to be a sperm cell? I’m just speculating because I sure don’t know the science. In reality, the research won’t become a viable substitution unless it is cost effective. I know people pay thousands for IVF so they can have their own baby and that sure isn’t cost effective when they could adopt instead. So who knows where that may lead?
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JustaJew
March 27th, 2009
1:18 pm
TOJ,
be careful in your generalizations about the people of Germany in WWII. It was not a country of slobbering fascists as you seem to think. Goebbel didn’t have as much influence as the “documentaries” on the Discovery Channel might have you think. Most Germans thought he was a pompous ass and my most direct accouts, anyone with a brain in their head knew what an absolute evil the Nazi party was….
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JustaJew
March 27th, 2009
1:18 pm
Thanks Gale and Mara, as if I already didn’t feel useless enough, lol
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Jamel Ekeil
March 27th, 2009
1:42 pm
So that bisiness model won’t fly…Well then, in that case, I am against ESCR! And Nazis, and socialists, and especially Flying Spagetti Monsters theology! Oh, I am for partial birth birth.
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chuck
March 27th, 2009
1:45 pm
From the article that David linked at 11:37:
*Because producing them does not require human ova, and because they are patient-specific stem cells that are less likely to be rejected by their recipients, they also have distinct scientific advantages. Indeed, on the day following President Obama’s announcement, an analysis in the New York Times noted that the embryonic stem cell research the president had touted “has been somewhat eclipsed by new advances.”*
As with most topics, people just don’t want to think about Barack HUSSEIN Obama being POLITICAL. I’m sorry, but if you think that executive order was ANYTHING BUT political, you are just naive. He is even more political than Clinton, and I never thought that was possible. If you are honest, you will have to admit that very little of what GW did was political. Unlike Clinton, Barack HUSSEIN Obama, and DICK CHENEY for that matter, GW actually has a moral compass. He for the most part made decisions based on his core beliefs. Something sadly lacking in Washington these days.
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John
March 27th, 2009
1:46 pm
Obama’s decisions were scientifically stupid!
iPS and adult stem cells are cleaning embryonic stem cells clock.
ESCR is obsolete. It doesn’t matter how many embryos are available it won’t help.
See http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS09A02 for a start.
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Gale
March 27th, 2009
1:49 pm
JustaJew, you know I am just teasing all you folks with that Y chomosone defect.
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Mara
March 27th, 2009
1:54 pm
Gale – all you folks with that Y chomosone defect
LOL! They do say that the Y is a defective “X” you know
I’ve also read that all zygotes start out as female and don’t differentiate until the 10th week or thereabouts…
JaJ – ya know we love ya!
hugs to everybody. The weekend is a-callin’
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
1:57 pm
Mara and Gale you don’t need God, simple because you want to play one on TV!
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chuck
March 27th, 2009
2:00 pm
To make myself a little clearer, THE ONLY REASON for funding embryonic stem cell research RATHER THAN adult stem cell research and placenta stem cell research is to ONCE AGAIN promote ABORTION and devalue the life of babies.
Here’s an idea though, HOW ABOUT the Government NOT FUNDING ANY SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH. Even under President Bush there was NO PROHIBITION on the research, JUST NO FUNDING. Let scientists fund their own research. Give them the patents on their discoveries and let them profit from their WORK.
An alternative would be to not fund any research but then BUY the discoveries afterward.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
2:00 pm
JustaJew, if they weren’t “slobbering fascists” then what happened is far worse. They just killed all them people cuz it was fun? No, it’s becuase they are fundementally flawed and don’t have God. Without God, moral relatity beging to creep. That is what Obama and his liberal cronies are attempting to do our country.
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Logical Dude
March 27th, 2009
2:10 pm
The crux of the issue is this: Whether there is federal funding or not, those same embryos will be discarded. Fighting federal funding for embryonic stem cell research SAVES NO BABIES!
so why do you not like embryonic stem cell research? Because you save a baby? That is a false argument because you either use the embryo for scientific research, or you destroy the embryo. YOU DO NOT RESCUE THE EMBRYO.
Any questions?
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Gale
March 27th, 2009
2:12 pm
Chuck, would you have the government stop funding research for ways to kill people, or just the stuff that might benefit people? Personally, I expect the goverenment to continue looking for ways to kill people whether they admit to it or not.
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The Other Jack
March 27th, 2009
2:17 pm
JustAJew
First, have you ever been in an office that was nothing but women? Have you ever dealt with a company that was nothing but women? There’s only one thing women hate more than men: other women. We will always be needed, if nothing else but to listen to the way the women at work are so unfair.
My interest in the German people started when I was growing up. The nice woman across the street was German and had been a member of the NAZI Party. She told me lots of stories about the good days when Germany was finally coming out of the throes of WWI and people were beginning to work again, under the NAZI government. She told me about the plays and the radio dramas where Jews were always made out to be the real villain. It was always the greedy Jew that was the problem, certainly not the good Socialist German Worker.
Jews did a lot of business in Northern Europe and the National Socialist Workers Party was made up of people that supported the party that was against the ownership of that business. That class warfare . . . that hate was reinforced by a steady stream of propaganda films, plays and radio dramas that always had one central theme: Jews are bad. Class warfare is the easiest message to get across. Pol Pot used it. it is the easiest route to take. There will always be more poor people than rich. Jews controlled a lot of commerce. Commerce wasn’t very kind to a Socialist Worker so out with the pitch forks and the loading up of buses to threaten and intimidate the state dictated bad people . . . no wait. That was AIG. Totally different situation . . . I’m sure.
Are those tactics still being used by Hollywood to indoctrinate another educated and cultured populace? I think that they are, but that is up for you to decide on your own.
Goebbels may have been disliked, but the science he mastered is still being used and was used by the NAZIs to indoctrinate a populace.
But you need to be careful about what you are taught about the German people. If the German people knew what an absolute evil the NAZIs were, why did they send their sons to die for the Third Reich? Why were old men and young boys willing to use pitch forks and clubs to fight tanks to defend the Fuhrer?
I didn’t learn what i know about the Germans from a Discovery Channel Documentary. I learned a lot from personally knowing a NAZI. I learned a lot more from a thesis I wrote on Goebbels. And I have studied almost everything he had written.
I know that I am not going to be able to change anyone’s minds about anything. But at least we are talking about what the Germans did at this incredibly;y important time in our history. Mara claimed that using the lessons that NAZIs taught us trivialize the holocaust. I just can’t imagine that anyone would think that what is happening to our country and it’s economic standards is trivial. If ever before we needed to look at history as our teacher, now is the time.
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Frau Nachbarn
March 27th, 2009
2:59 pm
Du bist einer liegenden verrückten Sohn einer Hündin. Du bist niemandes Freund. Aufenthalt weg von mir, Ausgeflippte.
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chuck
March 27th, 2009
3:11 pm
Gale, National Defense is a constitutional DUTY of the federal government. While I think that we probably have enough ways to kill people, AT LEAST there is a constitutional REASON for funding that kind of research. No such constitutional authority exists for funding other types of research.
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chuck
March 27th, 2009
3:12 pm
Have a nice weekend everybody. It’s nice when I get to pop in every once in awhile.
BTW, MOVING SUCKS.
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Gale
March 27th, 2009
3:21 pm
Chuck, that really stretches the duty of the government to protect the people, but ok.
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Troglodyke
March 27th, 2009
3:28 pm
I often wonder how many rapists, murderers and genocidal maniacs have never entered this world because they were aborted.
It goes both ways. And why are people so presumptuous to assume that “god” thinks abortion is wrong? Is it not part of “his plan”? Think about it, believers. Think hard.
Why don’t you hold one, Gandalf? Go ahead and have a little memorial service for every one, if you feel so inclined. It’s a free country.
<>
That’s very noble of you. I wish all the anti-science, anti “immoral medical treatment” folks felt the same.
Personally, I believe that if someone wants to oppose research on embryonic stem cells, then they also oppose all breakthroughs made with these cells, and all treatments. You voluntarily give up any right to any treatment that research might provide you in the future. Does that sound fair?
I also believe Christians should not be allowed to avail themselves of fertility treatments. If “god” wanted you to reproduce, he’d have made it possible the “normal way,” no?
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Troglodyke
March 27th, 2009
3:30 pm
Sorry; I cannot figure out the formatting on these “new” blogs. The part of my post in italics was a response to JC’s post at 10:33.
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Gandalf, the White!
March 27th, 2009
3:32 pm
Gale, killing enemies of the state is big business!
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The Other Jack
March 27th, 2009
3:55 pm
Frau Nachbarn
Sie wissen nichts über meine Mutter, so hören Sie auf, ihre Namen zu nennen. Das Fernbleiben vom sozialistischen Schaum wie sich selbst wird kein Problem für mich sein.
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Kataweb.it - Blog - diariotip » Blog Archive » News 27 marzo 2009.
March 27th, 2009
4:43 pm
[...] Journal Cardium reports on applicability of Corgentin to stem cell therapies. Rif.: PR Newswire Was President Obama right to reverse Bush’s stem cell policy ? Rif.: [...]
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J-Tex
March 27th, 2009
9:38 pm
Fact – a huge number of embryos from fertility treatments are destroyed each year.
Fact – despite the claims of religious conservatives that there are, in fact, “homes” for these embryos – by homes, I mean not only wombs to carry these embryos to term but willing adopters to take in the babies once they’ve been gestated, there is zero support to suggest that this is, in fact, true.
Conclusion – given the above FACTS, the best benefit to mankind is to use these embryos that would otherwise be destroyed to research medical treatments that could cure disease.
FALLACY – Suggesting that because embryonic stem cell research has yet to produce a cure that it never will is simply false. Not only is this research in its nascent stages, but funding has been in short supply. This assumption is tantamount to suggesting that Jonas Salk, prior to his discovery of a vaccine for Polio, would NEVER discover a vaccine for polio simply because he had failed at the time to do so.
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The Other Jack
March 28th, 2009
8:56 am
J-Tex
Fact: For every dollar that is spent on trying to make embryonic stem cells work, that same dollar is what has been thrown away. That same dollar could have been spent researching workable solutions. To equate Salk’s discovery is nonsense. I would equate someone researching blood letting. It has never worked and there are now other alternatives that do work, so why do we keep throwing money at a non-solution? It’s simple, It’s political
Placental and cord stem cells have all the potential of embryonic stem cells and they actually work and have worked for several years. The big difference is simple: Embryonic stem cells: The baby dies (or is never allowed to live). Placental and cord stem cells: The baby lives.
Personally, as long as embryos are not being created for the research (see Mengele, Josef), I couldn’t care less unless it is my tax dollar being spent. But of course my tax dollar will be spent for this and every other power grab that the democratic Congress can take.
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J-Tex
March 28th, 2009
7:41 pm
It’s not nonsense, and it was a metaphor, not a specific comparison. To suggest that because discoveries have yet to be made that they will never be made is, simply put, flawed logic. If anything, blood letting is a far worse example. There is no scientific merit behind blood letting – merely superstition about humour, not to mention that the idea of scientific inquiry didn’t even exist when blood letting was a common practice. There IS a scientific basis for embryonic stem cell research, as one can easily discover by perusing the literature.
As for your own “fact”, that’s also poor logic, given the “just because it hasn’t happened yet means it never will” argument. Adult/placental stem cell research represents one stream of research, which is separate from embryonic research. One creates a false dilemma when one suggests that dollars must be given to one, rather than the other, in order to achieve results, or that dollars spent on one, rather than the other, are wasted. If stream B takes longer to come to fruition than stream A, then that investment is not wasted, merely deferred.
And the Mengele reference…you should above that sort of thing. Mengele experimented on living, sentient human beings. The medical techniques used to isolate embryos didn’t even exist during Mengele’s experiments – they didn’t become truly viable, one might argue, until the first embryo was successfully implanted in the late 70s. To equate the two is logically and intellectually dishonest, at best.
The big difference – in embryonic research there is no baby to live or die. There is a cell cluster that would otherwise be tossed in an incinerator. Pardon me if that’s a no-brainer for me.
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The Other Jack
March 29th, 2009
10:56 am
J-Tex
Embryonic stem cells might work some day. If it would work, it would offer more options than other stem cell research. The problem is that while embryonic stem cell research was restricted in the US by a lack of tax payer money, it was researched heavily in some of the most scientifically advanced countries in the world. And the results? Nothing. Not one case has been tried that didn’t result in the stem cells becoming cancerous.
However, Placental stem cells, has CURED thousands. IS CURING thousands, but strangely enough, if you don’t know where to look, you will never see the coverage. Why do you think that is, J-Tex? Do you think that politics is not involved?
If we can use embryos that are not manufactured for that specific research, I say, sure, continue throwing money down the hole. But let’s concentrate on funding a science that is CURRENTLY SAVING LIVES. The kid with Ms doesn’t care about embryonic stem cells. They won’t help him. Placental stem cells will.
We have no say in our government and popular ideas that are touted in a very liberal leaning media are the ones that get the money. So you will win just like Harry Reid is getting his train to Disneyland. So instead of supporting a science that is working, our tax dollars are being thrown at something to satisfy a voting block.
A great way to do this would be to invest all the money into all stem cell research and hopefully, the advances in placental stem cells would help in the research with embryonic, but that’s not how liberals work. It is your way or the highway. NO money from the government that supports a working science, but all the money in the world for the Pro-Choice voting block. If you don’t think it is all about politics, you haven’t been paying attention.
As far as Mengele, you need to pick up a book before you lecture others. Mengele was known for his experiments on humans, but that was not his central mantra. He wanted to breed a race of humans for nothing more than spare parts. Have you heard of his research into twins? it was all about genetics and what parts could be used by who. And his problem is still the problem with stem cells. It takes a genetic link in order for the stem cells to work, just like it takes a a genetic link for organ transplants. It doesn’t always take a relative, but it does always take a related genetic structure.
As far as the “cell cluster” and the “zigote” and any other term you might have to discredit the value of another person, keep it to yourself. The problem with people like Mengele is that they had that same penchant for devaluing the lives of others to justify his mantra. That is disgusting to me. Maybe it’s because i have done extensive reading about the NAZIs and the central theme of almost every horrible thing they did started with the devaluing of the lives of others. That is why I would like for NAZI Indoctrination Styles and NAZI Viewpoints be a required subject in every single public school in the world. History is screaming at us to pay attention to the sins of the past, but some groups think of excuse after excuse why their lessons should not be learned. It devalues the holocaust, it is the Godwin rule: there are a thousand made up reasons why we should not pay attention to what the Germans did. Why do you think that a specific political stance here in the US wuld have such disdain for looking at history as a teacher?
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ByteMe
March 29th, 2009
1:49 pm
I think Obama was wrong to do it, but my reasons are totally different from everyone else’s here.
I think it was wrong, because he should have gotten Congress to make it a law instead of an executive order. That way, Congressional Democrats get to be clear about where they stand on this in a way that separates them from Republicans AND Obama gets what he wants out of it.
I think it was a missed political opportunity. Had there not been so many other bigger issues to worry about, this is how it probably should have happened, but I guess people were busy with other things.
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J-Tex
March 29th, 2009
6:32 pm
I assure you, Jack, that I have picked up many books. The reason that your Mengele reference is not really germane to this, or any other discussion, is that its intent was to introduce an emotional element into an otherwise rational discussion. It’s a classic association fallacy, sometimes referred to tongue-in-cheek as “reductio ad Nazium”. We all know that Hitler was bad. Mengele was bad. The Nazis were bad. So, associating any of the above with a particular topic is an attempt to suggest that said topic is inherently bad without having to truly delve into the issue.
The ethical issues involved with stem cell research are a constant source of discussion, as are ethical issues with any sort of research. I’m just a social scientist, in training if you will, and I have to not only maintain a national certification in research ethics but I have to run any proposed research through an Institutional Review Board, even if it just involves asking a people probing questions. To suggest that such rigor would not be applied to natural scientific research, particularly natural scientific research of such a sensitive nature, is to completely ignore the modern day research environment. I don’t think you will find a single scientist who would approve of breeding up embryos for the purposes of body replacement. The ethical considerations there are strongly defined. Your suggestion that Mengele’s atrocities would somehow become the norm is unwarranted and unsubstantiated.
As to your other point, you continue to create the false dilemma of research streams. Funding both adult/placental/cord stem cell research AND embryonic research simply increases the chances of viable cures resulting from them. There is no “my way or the highway” limitation here – no one is barring funding from the alternative stream, or suggesting that such streams be halted in favor of embryonic research. I’m not sure why you’re suggesting that such limitations exist. And, as far as I can tell, no one in the scientific community suggests that placental/adult/cord stem cell research ISN’T effective – they acknowledge its successes as much as they acknowledge the success of any research.
Finally, you may impugn my respect for life all you will. If using scientific terminology offends you, then perhaps this sort of discussion is not for you. I am inclined to overlook your oblique attempt to compare me, and frankly anyone who doesn’t agree with you, to Mengele, but others may not be so forgiving. You have no right, sir, to suggest that, based on a limited conversation, that I am operating by some “mantra” to devalue human life.
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sharon
March 30th, 2009
1:17 am
Andy says, “To be fair, adult stem cells are invaluable in providing blood-replacement treatment. Yet they just don’t provide all the answers — if they did, why would scientists seek out the use of embryonic stem cells? Do we think they have some nefarious, ulterior motive?”
Funny you should ask — actually I DO SUSPECT some nefarious, ulterior, ego-boosting, god-complex motive on the part of the ’scientists’ who still want to experiments with embryonic stem cells. After so many years of research and comparisons in OTHER COUNTRIES, which have shown that adult stem cells are much more effective at treatments than embryonic stem cells, many scientists have come out and said that the embryonic stem cell solution is too unreliable, difficult to match with patients, and often times discarded as failures. But though an occasional article may bring that out, it seems to fall on deaf ears, and the lobbying continues. Almost, as tho’ the point is to win the argument rather than to save lives.
If that’s not a nefarious ulterior motive, what is?
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Mara
March 30th, 2009
6:32 am
TOJ – Mara claimed that using the lessons that NAZIs taught us trivialize the holocaust
talk about mis-statment!! What I actually said was that the Holocaust is trivialized by “speciously labling ANY action we might find repugnant as “nazi-like” and those who participate in said actions as some sort of “Hitler”.”
You talk about all this that you’ve done, and read, and written about etc etc etc yet you can’t seem to accurately paraphrase a simple blog post! It’s annoying when you accuse people of saying something that, on any reasonable contextual reading, is NOT what was said.
But I will let the panel decide whether I said ‘likening the Holocaust to anything and everything we find abhorrent ends up trivializing the horrors of Auschwitz’ or if, as you accused, that ‘being aware of the things we learned about Nazi’s trivializes the holocaust’.
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erpilot
March 30th, 2009
7:03 am
Of course life begins at conception, and science proves it. Look at the MRI. There are no limbs to be added. A child is there, just at an early stage of development. It’s unequivocal that is life at its earliest form. The catch line of the article is “embryonic cells SEEM TO PROMISE NEAR MIRACULOUS…” What hyperbole! To date, embryonic research has yielded ZERO results. 150 years ago, Darwin’s theory seemed to hold GREAT promise, yet NOT A SINGLE EXAMPLE OF MACRO EVOLUTION HAS EVER been observed in the fossil record. NOT ONE! Billions of fossils. Not one supports it! How long do you keep pursuing the theory without success before acknowledging it’s a bad theory? Princeton professor and Darwinist Peter Singer asserts “the life of a newborn is of less value than the life of a pig”. He believes parents should have the “right” to kill their newborn up until 28 days of age. Why stop there? Why not 28 weeks? Or 28 months? or 28 years? In Holland more than 6000 babies were euthanized in accordance with Singer’s theory. How does one not connect infanticide to the Holocaust? In fact, German philosophers used the same Nietzchian philosophy to eliminate the “weaker” race. Hitler claimed they “…have not the right to exist”. That’s what the Right to Life community is stating: the right of human life supercedes the right of a person to choose.
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Commissioner Zimmer
March 30th, 2009
7:34 am
The author of this article needs do some homework. Adult stem cells do in deed have the same pluripotent properties to be changed into other forms of cells. Adult stem cells are already treating patients in many ways right now. Embryonic stems cells have the negative effect of turning into tumors. Those are the facts. Why don’t you have a reporter report on them?
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Lyrazel
March 30th, 2009
7:45 am
I would think the question should be: if new medical discoveries are made with embryonic stem cells–would you go for treatment or would you refrain from treatment based upon your beliefs.
The second question: if the cost be far more than conventional medicines will insurance companies be able to not cover said treatments. If the government actually gets involved in citizen health care would state budgets include experimental services–or would there be limitations (just senators can apply) or would states opt out of experimental medical treatments because of costs.
Third question would be what if there is no breakthrough. People want breakthroughs in medicine but they are never a sure bet–these scientists are well tutored medical professionals and bandy words like–promising–hope–potential– instead of actually saying–we have successfully done nothing yet.
Last and final question: will advertisers sell ads on TV directed at women to sell their embryos (like gold jewelry) can some wing-tipped entrepreneur open a chain of placenta collection clinics?
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Adittohead
March 30th, 2009
7:55 am
There are no atheists/agnostics in combat zones….When their lives are threatened,or when a loved one is facing possible death, this groups joins the believers…….believe me.
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Save Us From the Religious Nuts
March 30th, 2009
8:06 am
Of course the President was right to reverse the Bush policy.
If you can freeze anything, and then thaw it, it’s not a human life.
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Gale
March 30th, 2009
8:28 am
“So instead of supporting a science that is working, our tax dollars are being thrown at something to satisfy a voting block.”
Sounds like a standard definition of politics, TOJ. Our elected officials have one overriding priority, to be reelected. The funding for scientific research is a drop in the national budget. We want research here in America to keep our best minds here in America. We fund research into areas that show possibility because we don’t know at the start which area will produce new information. And sometimes, the information feeds and entirely different area. We don’t insist that research produce a product. That notion stiffles the nature of research.
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
9:12 am
J-Tex_Talk about emotionally driven nonsense.
No one is calling you Mengele. And aaparently, no you haven’t picked up a book. Mengele’s known atrocities involved torturing people. I have repeatedly said that I was referring to his genetic research. Calm down and read, will you?
And BTW, If you can’t discuss historical parallels because they are too emotional for you, perhaps posting on a political forum is not for you.
And no one is restricting research into placental stem cells just like no one restricted embryonic stem cells. They just didn’t pay for it with tax payer money, so I guess to you, what you guys have been whining for for 8 years was not really a problem, huh? I would like to see my TAX dollars spent on a working science. Too much to ask?
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
9:17 am
Mara – No one called anyone any sort of Hitler. As I have said, I will continue to make comparisons with what is happening to our country with sins of the past. Right now, the Democratic Party is practically mirroring the actions of the NAZIs during the mid 1930s. That’s a fact. Obama fired the head of GM. Let me say that again: OBAMA FIRED THE HEAD OF GM. And you are worried that I am calling others Hitler.
If you would actually read what I write instead of looking for reasons to go emotional, perhaps you might see my point.
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
9:24 am
Lyrazel
There are already placental collection companies that freeze the stem cells until they are needed. Of course they only work with specific family members. Look up Life Bank USA. They have been curing people for several years now.
But of course you have complete idiots like the one who call’s it’s self Save Us From the Religious Nuts who claims that human cells can’t be frozen. Imagine, that idiot votes. That would explain the mess we are in.
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
9:26 am
Gale
I’d like to see more research into all of it, not just the political correct part. And I would also like to see the truth told by the media. Placental stem cell research has been completely privately funded, but it is working like a charm.
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
9:31 am
From the Wall Street Journal:
U.S. Forces Ouster Of GM’s Wagoner
Obama moved to impose sweeping and hard-nosed restructuring measures on GM and Chrysler, including the ouster of GM’s Wagoner.
My God, What have we done? Elected officials firing corporate heads. Hope? Change? My God. I hope the Obama supporters are satisfied. Is this what you voted for?
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
9:41 am
Cost-benefit analysis.
Has anyone heard of this? This is a very large part of the medical approach listed in the stimulus bill. HMOs started doing it during the Clinton administration. Now it is becoming part of the law.
I hope all you guys are valuable enough to the government for them to allow life saving medical treatment. Is this nonsense? Did you ever imagine that the president would fire the head of GM?
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
10:04 am
30 minutes into the market opening and the DOW is down over 200.
As George Soros supported Obama, he bet against the dollar. I read where he has now made over a billion off our problems.
Soros: Supports Obama while betting against the US economy. Smart man.
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Gale
March 30th, 2009
10:15 am
Now I have to read that article to get the story straight. I suspect it was the GM BOD that forced the CEO out in order to receive gov bailout funds. Personally, I think it would be better to let GM fail first and force restructuring. This just puts the second in command on the hot seat and gives people a scapegoat. We will see this CEO go to another company he can mismanage out of the public eye for a while.
As for life-saving medical anaysis; While I am sure if I or my loved one was in that position, I would want no expense spared. But prgmatically speaking, if a very expensive treatment would only sustain life for a brief period without offering any real quality of life improvement, is that expense justified? Many people make that decision for themselves when it is their own lives and their own families footing the expense. Continue to live for a few months with no hope of cure at the cost of everything I and my family owns, dooming my survivors to bankruptcy? Or die sooner with what little dignity I can muster. It is a tough decision I hope I will not have to make. It is easy to feel outrage when the decider is big government or big insureance company. But really, what would you decide? Spend a million on someone who will soon die even with the treatment, or spend the same million on someone with a reasonable hope of survival?
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
10:30 am
Gale
I also read the article. The BOD was told to fire the guy or lose their funding. Call it what you want but the Federal Government just fired the head of GM.
Yes, we all make decisions about the cost of treatment. I’m sure you have had to deal with a government bureaucracy. The maddening thing about this is the fact that to the people you are dealing with, you have no face, you have no life: you are a number on a piece of paper. Do you really want the unhappy bureaucrat that hates their life, setting in a drab corner and had a fight that morning with their spouse to decide whether you live or die?
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Gale
March 30th, 2009
10:36 am
I somehow doubt a single individual would be tasked with the analysis or decision on life and death treatment. Besides, even in countries with full gov health care, people are not restricted from seeking treatment privately if the government deems the treatment not cost effective. I remember hearing about health care in the Netherlands, I think it was there. They think Americans are a bunch of wusses that we cannot deal with even simple illness without several prescriptions. On the other hand, doctors there make house calls.
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
10:39 am
I wonder why the heads of the Unions that forced the US car companies into making really crappy cars and charging a fortune for them have not been even mentioned in all of this? (I don’t really wonder)
It’s like the Democrats are becoming a Socialist Party. Like a Union or a Workers Socialist Party. Wait, aren’t they the party in charge, making them a Nationalist Party?
I guess that we shouldn’t talk about this. It’s waaaaay too emotional for some people.
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
10:48 am
Gale
Why would you doubt that only one or two people would make those decisions? We are talking specific offices making these decisions for millions of people. Are you telling me that you think that everyone will get a trial?
Gale, I don’t know how old you are, but if you are over 40, so far you have been left out of any help the government is offering. it is all about children for two reasons. One: it makes the dems look like they care. Two, it is much much cheaper. Few kids get sick. We will all get sick and die if we aren’t killed in an accident. Have you heard anything addressing that by this administration?
Obama is screwing up, BIG TIME. He is allowing a power hungry Congress to steer him into supporting things that will give those Congress People an incredible amount of power. And most will be there long after Obama has been thrown under the Bus.
Personally, for the sake of our country, I think Obama should be impeached as soon as possible, but the only problem with that is that Joe Biden would be president.
The Democrats will have to be allowed to continue to destroy our economy for two years until we can legally act and by vote, send them home.
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Gale
March 30th, 2009
11:13 am
The biggest assistance to people over 40 is possibly prescription assistance. I am quite certain my own grandmother would have lived longer if she had not needed to decide between food and medicine. I am not crazy about the focus of children’s healthcare because I think they are going about it in the wrong way. It just encourages people to lay all the responsibility on the govermnent, when what really needs to happen is a parent home with a kid for a day. I would put in many more neighborhood clinics and allow nurse practicioners to treat many of the issues for children and adults and get those issues out of hospital ERs. That change, along with single payer insurance and electronic medical records, would also benefit many older Americans as well. I don’t really need a doctor most of the time, and I am rarely ill. But even the elders in my close aquaintance would benefit with this change. Let them stop by a nearby clinic for routine screening.
Without a way to keep simple cases out of the ER, the plan won’t help much. We cannot funnel well child visits through local ERs. We should not funnel childhood sniffles though ER. That only clogs the system.
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Lyrazel
March 30th, 2009
11:24 am
When a company needs billions in handout cash from the government for operations–is it still a private corporation? Me thinks if you grab the goodie bag–you gotta pay the piper–
TOJ–when have elected union officials actually listened to members? Are union memberships effective for its members beyond influencing political candidates & creating lobbyists?
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Gale
March 30th, 2009
11:27 am
TOJ, regarding cost/benefit of healthcare. Maybe we need Bruno’s input on thise since he seems more current in the healthcare industry. However, illnesses come in categories. Every illness is not life threatening. I am sure you agree that far. Our current insurance based healthcare does the same thing. Personal example: I need a bite guard or I will grind my teeth to nubs at night. My insurance will not pay for it because I am an adult and they only pay for child dental appliances. I can and did pay for it myself. An individual person at the insurance company did not make that decision. It was a policy based on the category. Simple issue, simple policy.
But suppose I have cancer that is rapidly spreading. A new drug that costs $10k a dose, MIGHT, keep me alive an extra year, but I will be sick as a dog while I take it and probably have to be hospitalized much of the time. If I don’t have the new drug, I will probably live six months, needing increasing pain medication and hospitalization near the end of that time. I do not believe a single person will make the decision for my treatment. I believe a decision of that magnitude would be a group decision made by people who understand what they are doing; not an overworked clerk. Do you honestly believe otherwise? And do you honestly believe it is any worse than what we have now?
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Mara
March 30th, 2009
11:35 am
the Unions that forced the US car companies into making really crappy cars and charging a fortune for them
The Unions control the artists, the engineers, and designers who come up with the concepts!? And the engineers and developers that make the concept work? And decide which cars get built and which ones never get off the drawing board?!! Gee…I wonder if Buck and Joe working on the production line actually realize that they, and their buddies a’course, were the ones who decided that minivans and Hummers were the way to go, to the exclusion of everything else. I bet they were the ones who nixed R&D on electric cars (allowing Toyota to become the innovation leaders). And I’m positive that the only way the Dodge Nitro, Chrysler Sebring, or Chevy Uplander made it into production was because the Union guys absolutely LOVED ‘em!.
(/snark)
————————————————————————
Right now, the Democratic Party is practically mirroring the actions of the NAZIs during the mid 1930s
two words…Verschärfte Vernehmung. If you won’t repudiate ‘enhanced interrogation’ you’ve got no room to go around accusing others of acting like Nazi’s.
Factually speaking, there’s less linking Obama and the Democrats to socialism than there is joining Bush and the Republicans to fascism.
————————————————————————
If you would actually read what I write instead of looking for reasons to go emotional, perhaps you might see my point
“You’re BLACK!”, said the Pot.
“No, YOU’RE black!” said the Kettle.
“Huh-UH!”, said the Pot, “You are!”
“No, YOU are!”, Kettle said.
“No I’m not! You are!” Pot screamed.
ad nauseum…
————————————————————————
I guess that we shouldn’t talk about this. It’s waaaaay too emotional for some people.
see above -
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
11:52 am
Gale
I definitely agree with the problems of the ER. Horrible situation.
Our healthcare system definitely needs some changes. But Gale, I just do not trust our government. Our city government is a joke. Our state government officials seem like they let them out of the state hospital long enough to pass laws to spend the lottery money and do I really need to say anything about what is going on is Washington?
i think of all the things that have scared me the most was the AIG bus trips to intimidate the families of the executives at AIG. That is pure fascism. And it was encouraged by a liberally controlled media and sponsored by labor unions. It was a democrat effort from the get go and it all boils down to them covering their slimy butts because they KNEW what was in the bills that they wrote.
Think about that: Politicians that are so corrupt, so slimy that they sic mobs on private citizens to cover their own incompetence. And these same people would be in charge of the medical industry? No thanks.
Of course I really have no say. None of us really do.
I need to get back to work, and pardon my bitterness today. One of my best friends who was a huge Obama supporter landed a job in Costa Rica last week. Another close friend that also voted for Obama is selling her house and taking the money and putting it into gold and foreign currency exchange. These are two of the smartest people i know and one is bailing and the other is taking a huge lose on a million dollar house because she believes that this is only the beginning of our problems.
For the first time in years, I am looking at the end of my work. What that means to an independent contractor is once I finish up what I am doing, I am out of work. I have bid on four projects so far this year and lost all but one to a minority owned business. The last one, the minority business that won the bid had the grand scope of experience of producing one music video that never aired and has video taped their church service for two years. I have produced television for almost every network in the world for 30 years and I underbid the other company $6,000, but lost the bid. All three of the lost bids to minority owned companies were for government contracts.
Can you please explain to me why I should support or trust this government in any way?
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
12:32 pm
Mara
So you equate what the NAZIs did to their prisoners to our intell agencies depriving POWs of sleep and making them uncomfortable. But you don’t equste what they are doing now in the way of taking over major US companies and using the media to support their crimes as not what the NAZIs did. I see.
You are just not at the point that I can argue with you. You have to have at least a small amount of logic before my argument would work and apparently, that is missing from your thought process.
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
1:53 pm
From Bllomberg as the DOW falls more than 300 points in one day:
In a decision that surprised lawmakers and analysts with its toughness, Obama said at the White House today “we cannot continue to excuse poor decisions” and “cannot make the survival of our auto industry dependent on an unending flow of taxpayer dollars.” He said the administration is also prepared to use bankruptcy to “help them restructure quickly and emerge stronger.”
We cannot continue to excuse poor decisions? And this is from THIS White House and THIS Congress? Holy Christ. What have we done?
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Gandalf, the White!
March 30th, 2009
4:00 pm
YES TOJ! That place in Cuba was worst than, well worst than, SEAR Training! No that’s not even true, our solders, airman, sailors and marines go through more rigourous training excercises than what those terrorist went through. American is too weak to get the job done anymore. NO MORE TORTURE? What does Barry call those assine speaches he keeps giving? And pictures of his wife is pure torture! That Michelle is one Fugly woman!
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Netbanker
March 30th, 2009
4:02 pm
Hey kids! Long time, no chat and I’m just running through today on my way to workout Boot Camp. Skimming through the responses shows the same round-about discussions as always that none of us will even likely solve. Theologans and scientists have studied the question of when life begins for hundreds of years and we still don’t have an answer. I don’t have it either.
I do have a healthy skepticism of the right to life folks arguing about the use of embryos that will end up as medical waste. What do you propose we do with them? Keep the little ‘humans’ frozen for ever and ever and ever? And this is good or preserves life, how exactly? If abortion is bad then is invitro infertilization also bad because it creates these little frozen balls of life as a byproduct? If abortion is playing God, isn’t IVF the same thing?
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
4:24 pm
Netbaker
Abortion isn’t playing God. It’s just an industry making a buck. . . and killing a child.
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The Other Jack
March 30th, 2009
4:32 pm
Gandalf
I try to be open minded, but where anyone got that she was beautiful is a mystery to me. I know a lot of extremely hot Black women. She ain’t one of them. She’s probably a good person