Was it a mistake to use interrogation techniques such as waterboarding?
Federal civil servants take an oath of office modeled on the president’s own, which begins, “I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies.” At great personal cost since 9/11, our intelligence employees have been pursuing terrorists and preventing more homeland tragedies — and it’s shocking that they have now been undermined and demoralized by the president himself.
Our protector in chief has said it was a “mistake” to use coercive interrogation techniques on Al Qaeda masterminds – despite the fact that the resulting information saved us from another 9/11 on the West Coast. President Obama said we surely could have gotten the information another way. Really? Presumably, any techniques would need to be coercive or the terrorist would have answered the first time we asked. Yet our president has now banned their use.
Terrorists worldwide probably share the same disbelief as Americans at our president prioritizing the comfort of evil men over the safety of our people. Hard work to track and capture doesn’t matter from now on: under the Obama Administration, the terrorists know we can’t do a thing to compel them to share their information. Open season on Americans.
No American wants us to become the barbarians we are trying to fight, and Obama implying our methods were equivalent is deeply offensive. Unlike Al Qaeda, we are not burning, castrating or blinding our detainees with branding irons. Even waterboarding, the most intense CIA technique, does no permanent harm – American soldiers undergo it in survival training — and was authorized only under strict guidelines. A May 30, 2005, Justice Department memo said it could be used only if the CIA has “credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent,” the detainee has information that could prevent it, and all ‘other interrogation methods have failed to elicit’ it.
As former CIA director Porter Goss said in a recent Washington Post article, “there is simply no comparison between our professionalism and [the terrorists’] brutality.”
Evil men will leverage every weakness – including naïve good intentions. High ideals are one thing – but if we aren’t even allowed to get as tough as waterboarding to save American lives, then we are in serious trouble.
Was it a mistake to use interrogation techniques such as waterboarding?
My colleague would have you believe that there is no action between torture and inaction, when in fact a long list of permissible techniques have elicited crucial information. She would have you believe terrorists worldwide are startled by our newfound aversion to torture, and there she may be right, but for the wrong reasons. Our civilized behavior here and on the ground in Iraq frustrates Al Qaeda because it wins over hearts and minds. Never forget that our enemies in this war aim to be martyrs, so not only is there no evidence that torture yields better information, it’s not even a deterrent.
Still, the fans of torture persist in their beliefs. I’m not sure which “West Coast 9/11” Shaunti thinks waterboarding prevented; she couldn’t possibly be referring to that FOX-fueled falsehood that our government stopped an attack on the tallest building in Los Angeles by torturing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his ilk. We’ve since learned that plot was successfully thwarted in 2002 but Shiekh Mohammed wasn’t captured until 2003. Remember, gang: Karl Rove may put it on his Facebook page but that doesn’t mean it’s true.
The truth is that there is no hard-and-fast evidence to show that waterboarding elicited any life-saving information but plenty of data to suggest that techniques were applied far beyond the guidelines of the Justice Department and violated the U.N. Convention Against Torture ratified by the United States in 1994. Many of us were horrified by the Bush Administration’s attempt to alter the Geneva Conventions—what’s our next move? Simply hope that the people who capture our soldiers don’t do as we do?
I find it particularly odd that polls conducted by the Pew Forum and Faith in Public Life both reveal that many of the same conservative folks who are against embryonic stem cell research and abortion for any reason whatsoever, even to save existing lives, think that torture can often be justified.
Say what? Aren’t the righteous expected to rise above the devil, not emulate him? Let me get this straight: if a conservative only cherishes life when it’s convenient, she’s being practical. When a liberal is this inconsistent, she’s called a moral relativist. Talk about tortured logic…
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290 comments Add your comment
USinUK
May 15th, 2009
9:32 am
Sadly, what is slowly coming out is that torture wasn’t used to prevent another 9/11 … if you have been reading the news this week, it looks like torture was used to gather “intel” (using that term VERY loosely) to justify our invasion of Iraq.
The case of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi indicates that he was broken to show evidence of a link between Iraq and AQ … a link which we now know to be absolutely false. And, of course, now al-Libi has committed suicide in his Libyan cell — interestingly, it happened just as attorneys were trying to get access from the Libyan government to interview him … and how convenient that we’re now such great friends with Libya, huh?? so we will never know the entirety of what they did to him and what he said.
However, what we do know is what Col Lawrence Wilkerson (of the State Dept) has said over the last week – that torture was used WELL before the infamous Yoo memos and that it was used.
it’s just more evidence that torture yields false, untrustworthy information — in this case, the information was used to justify the invasion of Iraq, an invasion which has resulted in thousands of servicemen and -women killed, tens of thousands wounded.
USinUK
May 15th, 2009
9:34 am
“that torture was used WELL before the infamous Yoo memos and that it was used”
edit fail.
what that should have said was “that torture was used WELL before the infamous Yoo memos and that it was used for far more nefarious reasons than preventing another 9/11″
William T
May 15th, 2009
9:56 am
Feldhahn makes excuses and rationalizations. Sarvady makes logical points on this subject.
Mara
May 15th, 2009
10:11 am
before Gandy gets here…
FIRST (to say ‘first’)!!
Gandalf, the White!
May 15th, 2009
10:17 am
First to say “Good Morning Mara!”
Gandalf, the White!
May 15th, 2009
10:28 am
Waterboarding is like a ride at 6 Flags! All towelheads should get an opportunity to enjoy! (I HAVE been waterboarded, SO PLEASE DON’T START!) Peace in our time (through superior firepower!)
Gandalf, the White!
May 15th, 2009
10:31 am
William T! You are SO discerning! Thanks for adding your comments! They are so enlightening!
Gandalf, the White!
May 15th, 2009
10:33 am
Enter your comments here
Gandalf, the White!
May 15th, 2009
10:34 am
There William T! We both are equally witty now!
Gandalf, the White!
May 15th, 2009
10:35 am
Gallop Poll says!
American who are Pro-Life 52%
American who are Pro-Death 41%
Presidents who think it’s OK to whack ‘em if they come out breathin: 1
Go Barry, Go Barry!
Gale
May 15th, 2009
10:47 am
According to some who apparently took part in questioning detainies, whether or not “harsh interrogation techniques” were torture, they did not elicit better, quicker, or even more reliable information than the methods used normally. History of military interrogation from the last war showed us that less drastic means would provide reliable information if performed by personnel who understand what they are doing. Our administration decided to use harsh methods and decided to use contractors to do this, likely with the notion that the contractors could be directed outside the military command.
Far too much was done by the previous administration to tred the edge of the law to call waterboarding legal when this has been condemned as a war crime by the international community and the USA in the past. I always worry when politicians and lawyers are careful to define legality for something the man on the street would think illegal, or at the inhumane.
USinUK
May 15th, 2009
10:48 am
GtG –
the interesting thing about that poll – the only shift was in the GOP (from the website): “The source of the shift in abortion views is clear in the Gallup Values and Beliefs survey. The percentage of Republicans (including independents who lean Republican) calling themselves “pro-life” rose by 10 points over the past year, from 60% to 70%, while there has been essentially no change in the views of Democrats and Democratic leaners.”
in common parlance, what you’re seeing is called “knee jerk”
Charles
May 15th, 2009
10:56 am
say WHAT Shaunti? Waterboarding no permanent harm?
Here’s what Dr. Allen S. Keller, M.D., the Programs for Survivors of Torture has to say on the subject:
“To think that abusive methods, including the enhanced interrogation techniques [in which Keller included waterboarding], are harmless psychological ploys is contradictory to well established medical knowledge and clinical experience. These methods are intended to break the prisoners down, to terrify them and cause harm to their psyche, and in so doing result in LASTING harmful health consequences.”
(emphasis mine)
He said of waterboarding specifically, “Long term effects include panic attacks, depression and PTSD [post traumatic stress disorder],” and said it poses a “real risk of death.”
wow – I wish I could understand how one could read that and think “Oh, they’ll eventually get over it”.
Gale
May 15th, 2009
11:05 am
If we consider PTSD real and harmful for our soldiers, how could we not think harsh interrogation would not have lasting effect on those we use it on? I cannot believe the individuals using these methods believed they would have no lasting effects on those prisoners.
Gandalf, the White!
May 15th, 2009
11:07 am
I wish you could read that and say ” so what, it a dang old raghead terrorist!” that is the attitude you need. I don’t care if the guy who spearheads an attack against my country has PTSD! I want him to have PLSD, or post life stress disorder, as Satan himself waterboards the SOB for Eternity!
Gandalf, the White!
May 15th, 2009
11:08 am
EXPAT: Always scoffing at the winds of change!
USinUK
May 15th, 2009
11:15 am
GtG –
the only “winds of change” are in your pants
Mara
May 15th, 2009
11:18 am
Mornin’ Gandalf.
USinUK – I find the poll headline misleading. While the data does support the 52% pro-life number, the headline obscures the fact that 76% of respondants want to keep abortion legal, albeit with some restrictions.
Also, if someone is pro-life, (i.e. ‘anti-abortion’) it is certainly conceivable that they could ALSO be ‘pro-choice’ so it’s sort of a false comparison, wouldn’t you say?
USinUK
May 15th, 2009
11:21 am
Mara –
and that’s my problem with polls asking people “how would you describe yourself” … just because they SAY they’re pro-life, if they’re supporting keeping abortion legal (even if restricted), then they’re actually pro-choice.
USinUK
May 15th, 2009
11:28 am
and, just because this is such a great story, I’m reposting something that got abandoned at the end of the last thread:
… since we’ve spoken about military bands here in the past, I thought this newsy bit might be of interest (especially to people who like the bagpipes):
Some say that it is the most dangerous album ever recorded, but for the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, fighting and 40C (105F) heat were all part of a day’s work.
Last night the regiment’s 24 pipers were awarded the Best Album prize at the Classical Brit Awards, the first non-professional musicians to be recognised at the ceremony, for the record they produced in makeshift tented studios at their Basra base.
Spirit of the Glen: Journey was recorded in October, during the Dragoon Guards’ six-month tour of duty in Iraq. The regiment saw off stiff competition from established classical artists such as the tenor Andrea Bocelli and the mezzo-soprano Katherine Jenkins to triumph in the public vote.
Lieutenant-Colonel Felix Gedney, the regiment’s commanding officer, said: “It’s important for them not to forget that they are not a band for me. They’re my tank gunner, my lorry driver, my signals operator. I see them very much as soldiers first.”
— snip —
“The record is thought to be the first commercial album to be produced in a war zone and was recorded after technical staff from Universal Music took advantage of a lull in the fighting to fly out to Iraq. Tom Lewis, an A&R manager at Universal, said: “We did not appreciate what we had let ourselves in for until we were flying in total darkness in a helmet and full body armour. I was terrified. I suddenly realised what our Armed Services do on a daily basis. It was humbling. This is an album people risked their lives to make.” ”
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/classical/article6289752.ece
JustaJew
May 15th, 2009
11:41 am
I have a feeling we’re not gonna get many posts this week as this subject was debated ad nauseum over the last week. Unless, of course, we change the topic rather early….
WILLIAM SHATNER IS A SISSY BOY WHINER!
BALLROOM DANCING – TACKY OR MAGNIFICENT?
SWEET ICED TEA VS. BUDWEISER?
Feel free to weigh in with your thoughts and comments….
JustaJew
May 15th, 2009
11:42 am
Oh and one more….
Gandalf, can we have a waterboarding party over at your place, you know, since it’s so fun?
Mara
May 15th, 2009
12:20 pm
WILLIAM SHATNER IS A SISSY BOY WHINER! – I’ll give the man his props for leading the franchise vanguard, but I don’t have much to say about an actor who holds his world-wide fan base in such contempt. Went to a convention many moons ago where he was appearing and he was an absolute jack-*ss.
BALLROOM DANCING – TACKY OR MAGNIFICENT? the athleticism and control needed to do it properly is magnificent. the costumes are usually pretty tacky though.
SWEET ICED TEA VS. BUDWEISER? Hmmmm. like most choices, it depends on context. Hot day by the pool, yard work, barbecue, football…Bud. Hot day at Stone Mountain, card party with the neighbbors, nice lunch with the girls, flower show…sweet tea.
Gale
May 15th, 2009
12:55 pm
Shatner was a cardboard hero. Picard was a believable officer, and a gentleman in real life. Luke Skywalker was a whiner, and so was young Anikin.
Ballroom Dancing – Love the movie. I am such a sappy person.
Sweet tea and Budweiser are both nasty. Given that choice, I would take the drinking fountain, or even the garden hose. My partner makes nice jasmine tea-unsweetened. Fennel tea is also nice. Beer needs to be real beer. I never liked Coors either.
JustaJew
May 15th, 2009
1:01 pm
Hey Gale, wanted to let you know that I saw the new Star Trek movie and to be honest, I was hoping for more space battle-type scenes. I think the actor who played Bones had the best rendition. He had the inflection down pretty good and the mannerisms to a certain extent. I gave it a B overall.
Gale
May 15th, 2009
1:17 pm
JustaJew, a B grade is probably fair. A fun movie, but not a great movie. Remember the attitude of the original Star Trek was that mankind had moved away from conflict and the Federations was mostly a peaceful realm. I agree, Dr McCoy was spot on. I enjoyed the familiarity of the original crew. They were the same, but not quite the same. I was hoping for less hack and slash (space battle) and more story. I look forward to another installment with this crew.
Gandalf, the White! (Shiek Abooty)
May 15th, 2009
1:25 pm
JaJ, You, a man of the world, still drink Budweiser? You should slap and waterboard yourself! Warm piss tastes better! (and you have to be really really thirsty to drink that!) Bass Man! Or my personal favorite from the late great state of Oregon, FULL SAIL IPA! Good stuff,available for a limited time at your local Kroger.
Ballroom dancers? Tacky, but Strippers are much tackier and more fun:-)
Shatner is a GREAT LAWYER, and I actually enjoy his talk show. HE wins the greatest Star Trek Commander becuase,we’ll …how do you say this, and stay PC? Picard was gay, and I don’t mean happy!
Waterboardin’ party is for my son who does fear drowning, but you can come and asssit!
JustaJew
May 15th, 2009
1:25 pm
Yeah, although I’m moving to New York and if the next installmant comes out while I’m there, I’m not paying $15 for the ticket. I had a hard enough time swallowing paying $7.50 for the matinee here.
Mara
May 15th, 2009
1:26 pm
Gale – Beer needs to be real beer.
“Real” beer? Example please…
Gandalf, the White! (Shiek Abooty)
May 15th, 2009
1:27 pm
So EXPAT people can say one thing and mean another?
JustaJew
May 15th, 2009
1:29 pm
Gandalf,
) called Starii Melnik (which means “Old Miller”). It is, quite possibly, the single greatest beer to have been brewed in the history of mankind.
HELL NO I don’t drink Budweiser. My favorite brew is actually a Russian brand (sorry if I offended your indoctrinated sensibilites
Sapporo will do in a pinch and you could worse than Stella Artois…
JustaJew
May 15th, 2009
1:33 pm
that should be” you could DO worse than Stella Artois
Gale
May 15th, 2009
1:35 pm
Mara, my favorite for years was St Pauli Girl dark. Bass Ale is good. Genesee Cream Ale is good. Anchor Steam. I could go on. I prefer full bodied, robust beer. The light, almost tasteless beers are not worth drinking. Most people drink beer too cold to really taste it, as well. I used to keep mine in the cellar and not in the fridge.
JustaJew
May 15th, 2009
1:39 pm
Most people drink beer too cold to really taste it, as well
Gale, I agree but the one beer I always thought tasted better ice cold was Guinness
The Anti-Wooten
May 15th, 2009
1:42 pm
Shaunti, you no longer need to go to church. Your front row seat in hell is perfectly assured.
Mara
May 15th, 2009
1:49 pm
Gale – The light, almost tasteless beers are not worth drinking
a-HA! You’re an ale and I’m a lager. You don’t like the light dry beers and I can’t stand the thick, bitter ales.
(guiness…shudder…yuk!)
Kind of like me and my friend ‘Artie’, who’s a fellow wine sipper. I like the dry whites like pinot grigio’s and rieslings while he adores the merlots and Bordeaux’s.
Mara
May 15th, 2009
1:54 pm
Most people drink beer too cold to really taste it, as well
nooooooo! MOST beer tastes na-na-nasty if it’s not icy cold. The only exception that I’ve found is Shmidt or Hamms (both of which are pretty nasty cold or warm, thus are the perfect beers to take out on the lake fishing…)
been fun guys, but it’s time for me to start my weekend. Hugs all around –
Gale
May 15th, 2009
1:55 pm
Mara, yes, you have it. There are many different beers for the same reason there are many BBQ styles, or pizza. I do like dry white wines. I guzzled cases of a German riesling only to learn after a few years that I had guzzled my way through a vintage year. ::sigh:: But I also like Port and Sherry. Brick up that wall. I’m fine in here with the Amontillado!
The Anti-Wooten
May 15th, 2009
1:55 pm
despite the fact that the resulting information saved us from another 9/11 on the West Coast.
The plot that you speak has long since been debunked as 3 morons in a garage that were not remotely able to undertake the supposed operation. Call it a “pipe bomb dream”.
Gale
May 15th, 2009
1:57 pm
Shame, Mara. If you don’t like the taste, why mask it so you cannot taste it? For you, I recommend that tasteless Coors. Go ahead and ice it down. It won’t make any difference.
The Anti-Wooten
May 15th, 2009
1:59 pm
No American wants us to become the barbarians we are trying to fight
It’s transparently obvious that you’d welcome exactly that. Your TaliBaptist Jihad is a pox on the house of Amreica. When we undertook torture as a routinely accepted methodology for intelligence gathering we lost moral authority worldwide.
Gandalf, the White! (Shiek Abooty)
May 15th, 2009
2:28 pm
Your right “The Anti-Wooten”! We are not a war with Islam. But they dang sure are at war with us!
Silly, silly, Barry!!! He doesn’t know the difference between War and Peace. He is just like Curious George…look at them damn ears!
Gandalf, the White! (Shiek Abooty)
May 15th, 2009
2:30 pm
Woot!
You are a hoot!
Silly as a coot!
But really,
you need the boot!
Gandalf, the White! (Shiek Abooty)
May 15th, 2009
2:31 pm
AS for me, I don’t subscribe to any of that Amreican bullstuff anyhoo!
Gandalf, the White! (Shiek Abooty)
May 15th, 2009
2:34 pm
You are silly Wooter Tooter!! Ammreica doesn’t need to be liked! That’s for prom queens! strong>Ammreica needs to be respected, oh, and feared!
Gandalf, the White! (Shiek Abooty)
May 15th, 2009
2:35 pm
Beer is food!
Gandalf, the White! (Shiek Abooty)
May 15th, 2009
2:37 pm
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end”
JustaJew
May 15th, 2009
3:35 pm
You are silly Wooter Tooter!! Ammreica doesn’t need to be liked! That’s for prom queens! strong>Ammreica needs to be respected, oh, and feared!
True Gandalf, America can get along o.k. if we aren’t liked however, it sure does make things easier if we are….take the “Coalition of the Willing” (snicker). Perhaps more of them would have been willing to send troops (rather than strongly-worded letters) to help if they actually liked us. Personally, I saw it more as an ingratiate yourself with the bully attitude. You know, if your friends with the bully then maybe he won’t pick on you. Conversely, you’ll do what the bully asks, though grudgingly, and you’ll abandon him at the first available opportunity.
USinUK
May 15th, 2009
4:03 pm
GtG-
“So EXPAT people can say one thing and mean another?”
zackly.
ask anyone who has ever used online dating about how people describe themselves vs. what they’re really like
as for beer … in 2001, I took a trip to New Orleans and fell in love … with the city and with Abita beer … yummmmmm. Here, I drink Stella (in half-pint glasses … a true lady never orders a pint)
USinUK
May 15th, 2009
4:03 pm
btw – Sheik Abooty is your best yet!
JustaJew
May 15th, 2009
4:07 pm
Anybody wanna weigh in on this one? I just read an article that said teens and tweens were choosing NOT to go to camp because they can’t bring an iPod, cell phone or laptop and are totally unplugged while there. What the hell? There was nothing I looked forward to more than going to summer camp when I was a kid and even if I had a computer/cellphone/iPod, I still wouldn’t have missed it. What is WRONG with kids today?
Gale
May 15th, 2009
4:16 pm
I guess summer camp without electronics sounds like a drug rehab facility to a plugged in kid.
USinUK
May 15th, 2009
4:22 pm
“There was nothing I looked forward to more than going to summer camp when I was a kid and even if I had a computer/cellphone/iPod, I still wouldn’t have missed it. What is WRONG with kids today?”
Camp Juliet Lowe in Cloudland, the best camping experience ever (even though I got bitten by a horse) – loved it – learned loads, made friends, sang songs … kids don’t want to do this because they’ll miss their iPod??? L-A-M-E
JokesOn
May 15th, 2009
5:18 pm
Hey all.
Just dropping in between events. Hope all is well.
Rocking here;-)
The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar
May 15th, 2009
7:40 pm
Conservatives love torture. It reminds them of the homes they grew up in, where Mommy and Daddy beat them and each other senseless on a regular basis.
And, they think torture is sex play.
Bruno
May 15th, 2009
10:40 pm
“I have a feeling we’re not gonna get many posts this week as this subject was debated ad nauseum over the last week.”
The ladies are a week or three behind on this topic, for sure. I think everyone is entrenched in their respective positions, so I guess there’s nothing left to do but see how the cards fall re: prosecution of the Bush Administration. The word I’ve heard is that Obama doesn’t favor any type of “truth hearings” due to the negative fallout internationally. In the meantime, Nancy Pelosi is now saying that the CIA lied to her–she better pray that the evidence corroborates her side of the story, or she may be an early casualty herself.
Bruno
May 15th, 2009
11:25 pm
“You’re an ale and I’m a lager. You don’t like the light dry beers and I can’t stand the thick, bitter ales.”
I’m very popular with my beer drinking friends because they know that if they accidentally leave a few beers in my frig, they will still be there the next time they visit since I don’t care for it. I did find a Czech beer that was good, although I can’t remember it’s name. Light and sweet, with no bitterness.
“Just dropping in between events. Hope all is well. Rocking here;-)”
JokesOn–You must really have been in a hurry not to join the beer discussion.
(trying emoticon instructions)
“Camp Juliet Lowe in Cloudland, the best camping experience ever (even though I got bitten by a horse) – loved it – learned loads, made friends, sang songs”
Possibly the highlight of my early childhood was going to summer camp one year–shooting, archery, swimming, hiking, crafts, horseback riding, what a blast. We also watched the moon landing on a small B/W TV late one night (it was 1969).
BTW, USinUK–where did that horse bite you? On the butt?
(trying emoticon instructions) I guess Mara never went to summer camp because living in Big Sky country is like being at camp all year round. (sucking up to Mara…)
USinUK
May 16th, 2009
3:45 am
Bruno –
“she better pray that the evidence corroborates her side of the story, or she may be an early casualty herself.”
seriously. I read that h’line yesterday and thought it was either the boldest move she’s ever made or the dumbest. as you say, there’s something else where we’ll have to wait and watch where the cards fall on that one … Panetta has refuted her, so we’ll see how it plays out
I thought it was interesting, however, that the CIA itself doesn’t want to release the 2 memos that Cheney keeps talking about “proving” how effective torture really is.
And, of course, if Wilkerson is to be believed, then torture hasn’t been used since 2004 — so, for the second term of the Bush Administration we were evidently LOADS less safe (going by Cheney’s standards)
“where did that horse bite you?”
left shoulder. I was saddling the bugger and he was NOT in the mood for a ride. I had a hickey the size of an apple.
DeborahinAthens
May 16th, 2009
6:53 am
Yesterday I listened to a fascinating interview on NPR with Bob Gramm (Graham) (spelling?), a Republican, the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee during the time that Nancy Pelosi is referencing. He said that, according to his notes–and he is a famous note-taker–not only did they not discuss waterboarding during that time, but that there were three meetings that the CIA claimed to have occurred which did not happen. When he called them on it, they said that they would get back to him. When they called back, they agreed that, he was correct, there had NOT EVEN BEEN A MEETING! The interviewer asked if the CIA was always so lax with the truth. The Senator chose his words carefully, but, after making clear that today’s CIA is in no way like the CIA was back then, said basically, that they were willing to fudge the truth about weapons of mass destruction, so why should it shock anyone to find out they were lying to the Senate Intelligence Committee about enhanced torture techniques. Why don’t the right-wing bloviators ever feature anyone other than those that can stick it to the Dems????? By the way, the Senator said something very profound. He said it appeared that the CIA was more interested in telling the administration what they wanted to hear, rather than telling them what they needed to hear. And another point. All this hoopla over waterboarding overlooks the horrid things that we have done to subvert the Constitution. Holding any human without evidence that he or she has done anything wrong is the rot that makes this whole process stink. Also, no one talks about what has been done to the unfortunate (uncharged) people that have been sent to foreign countries that have been happy to torture these people for us, so that Dubya and Cheney could maintain the appearance of keeping their hands clean. If any other country had done such things to an American citizen, there would have been hell to pay. When we then try to take the moral high ground, we become the laughing-stock, fat bully, hypocrite that makes the rest of the world sneer at us. Respect? Not a prayer.
DeborahinAthens
May 16th, 2009
7:06 am
To correct my errors in my first post, The Senator is Bob Graham, and he is a Democrat from Florida. I encourage all of you to go to NPR and read the transcript of yesterday’s interview.
JokesOn
May 16th, 2009
9:19 am
JokesOn–You must really have been in a hurry not to join the beer discussion.
(trying emoticon instructions)
Yeah, I have been quite busy lately – but in a good way. Hope you are doing well.
Bruno
May 16th, 2009
12:52 pm
“Yeah, I have been quite busy lately – but in a good way. Hope you are doing well.”
Glad to know that and good luck with the career change. I’m doing fairly well–I’ll find out in a few weeks if my new job will be permanent. My GF and I are talking about moving in together. She’s having to endure a bad situation living with her Dad, so I’m eager for her to get away from him.
“left shoulder. I was saddling the bugger and he was NOT in the mood for a ride. I had a hickey the size of an apple.”
The horse I rode in camp was less than enthusiastic as well. I thought I would do the next kid a favor after he was in the saddle, and gave the horse a light slap on the rump. The horse then reared up and let fly a double kick which missed my head by inches. I can still hear that hoof whooshing by my ear.
Are you sure your horse just didn’t want a little nibble, you being as cute as you are?
Matt
May 16th, 2009
5:28 pm
This debate was a slam-dunk for Ms. Sarvady and anyone who believes otherwise needs to take an elementary logic course, and maybe an introduction to ethics on top of that. The sad thing for torture apologists is that Ms. Feldhahn’s arguments represent the best they’ve got: an unsupported, hyperbolic, circular, and ultimately reprehensible position.
USinUK
May 17th, 2009
5:24 am
Jokesy and Bruno –
best of luck to you both!! fingers crossed for you
“Are you sure your horse just didn’t want a little nibble, you being as cute as you are?”
haha … maybe now, but definitely not then – I went to camp during those “awkward years” – buck teeth, glasses, gangly … he was probably biting to preserve his stable cred! (noooo!!! don’t let that homely thing on me!!!)
happy Sunday, all!!!
The Other Jack
May 17th, 2009
2:40 pm
Charles
–He said of waterboarding specifically, “Long term effects include panic attacks,–
OH NO!!! Terrorist that are planning on killing hundreds of thousands of Americans because Allah says so and we are scaring them into having panic attacks. Say it ain’t so. Somebody get a rope!!!
–depression–
OH MY GOD!!!! NO! NO!! NO!!!
Please while we can, let’s put those Bush Criminals on trail!!! Let’s make this a political firestorm. I’m sure all the Americans that are losing their homes and can’t feed their families also think this is the most important issue. Terrorist are depressed. Hell and they aren’t even Americans. WE voted to install a president that is supporting the worst Congress in the history of our country. We OWN depression. How dare they!!!!
–and PTSD [post traumatic stress disorder],” and said it poses a “real risk of death.”–
Do you really mean to tell me that people who go though el Quida training camps might actually face death. Hell, it’s almost like they went to war or something. I am appalled.
But seriously, Obama is finding out that 90% of the total bullsh!t that he said to get elected was pure crap. Now he has brought back military tribunals and he still has 240 of the very worst people on earth at Gitmo with nowhere to put them.
Pelosi is going down in flames and even James Carvell was pretty much speechless on ABC’s Sunday Morning political show. Dick Cheney’s daughter ate his lunch.
So now it looks like it is basically everyone agreeing with everyone on here and the only opposition is Gandalf. It’s a democratic forum again and you all must be really proud. That’s the only way a democrat can win an argument nowadays.
I’ll be back in the country in three weeks, but it was just getting too easy. So you hens have at it. You are making some really good points. LOL!!
The Other Jack
May 17th, 2009
2:45 pm
Bruno
You can’t be a push-over for a horse and then decide to whack him. He’ll whack you back. From the instant he meets you, you have to be in total control. I haven’t owned a horse in 20 years but I have ridden a lot. Let him know that you care about him, but you HAVE to be the master.
The Other Jack
May 17th, 2009
3:10 pm
DeborahinAthens
A democrat on NPR and he was supporting Pelosi’s lies? Say it ain’t so!!!
The Other Jack
May 17th, 2009
3:50 pm
JustAJew
Camp Ramah?
Great camps. I wish we would have had such nice facilities.
The Other Jack
May 17th, 2009
3:53 pm
The Anti-Wooten
Can you offer ANYTHING except the same old dimocrap, anti-religious bigotry? You know, bigotry is not a good thing. Did you realize that?
The Other Jack
May 17th, 2009
4:07 pm
We get US television here. I watched Meet The Press and George Stephanopolis this morning. I always dreaded the end of the ABC show because they always list the people killed in Iraq and Afganistan. I watched as on some days back in the beginnings of the war that there would be 20 or 30 dead soldiers every Sunday. By last fall, the numbers had dropped to two or three a week.
This morning there were 11.
Hope? Change?
Change: Yes.
Hope? Not much left for the American people waiting on this administration to tell them the truth. And now we are in a war where it is politically correct to tell the enemy our secrets and apologize when the Taliban slaughters civilians and blames it on us. How horrible is a President that apologizes for the deaths of civilians, that our solders were actually protecting.
Hope?
Bullsh!t.
And with that, have a good week. I hope it is as demoralizing as this last week for anyone who voted for Obama. I just hope his incompetence doesn’t get too many of our troops killed.
Dennis
May 17th, 2009
4:38 pm
Is waterboarding torture. No it is not.
Is abortion murder. No it is not.
Chris Salzmann
May 17th, 2009
10:12 pm
Shaunti Said: No American wants us to become the barbarians we are trying to fight, and Obama implying our methods were equivalent is deeply offensive. Unlike Al Qaeda, we are not burning, castrating or blinding our detainees with branding irons. Even waterboarding, the most intense CIA technique, does no permanent harm – American soldiers undergo it in survival training — and was authorized only under strict guidelines.
Chris SAYS: Oh, so just because we do all these things to them in clinical surroundings, it’s okay? So why were all these techniques hidden from public knowledge for so long? If we were doing the right thing, why not claim it with pride at before it was done instead of trying to cover it up? About waterboarding, we condemned the North Koreans on doing it to our folks, and we put on trial and imprisoned the Japanese for doing it to their prisoners of war. So were we wrong? Should we send out letters of apology?
Shaunti further said: As former CIA director Porter Goss said in a recent Washington Post article, “there is simply no comparison between our professionalism and [the terrorists’] brutality.”
Chris SAYS: This is the most laughable comment of them all. So we employed professional torturers to do all this? If all this was okay, why punish all those soldiers at Abu Gharaib prison when they were pretty much doing the same things that, we now learn, that were authorized by the White House? Better still, are we going to say it’s okay for foreign entities to waterboard American citizens because we do it too? With what right and with what lack of hypocrisy are you going to stand up and protest when someone else does it to our folks?
As an experienced interrogator said, “Give me 30 minutes with Dick Cheney, and I’ll make him confess to anything you want”. As any FBI interrogator will tell you, these techniques don’t work. Oh, and about preventing another 9/11 on the West Coast, that’s a myth that the neo-cons and their offspring are trying to use to justify all this after they got caught with their pants down.
USinUK
May 18th, 2009
7:31 am
woowoo!!!! Go Trinity Go!!!
Speaking on Trinity’s campus in Northeast Washington, (Trinity President Patricia) McGuire said that “a half-century of progress for Catholic higher education is at risk of slipping back into those insular, parochial pre-Vatican II days” when academic freedom was not valued within the Catholic Church.
“The real scandal at Notre Dame today is not that the president of the United States is speaking at commencement,” McGuire said. “The real scandal is the misappropriation of sacred teachings for political ends. The real scandal is the spectacle of ostensibly Catholic mobs camping out at Notre Dame for the specific purpose of disrupting the commencement address of the nation’s first African American president. This ugly spectacle is an embarrassment to all Catholics. The face that Catholicism shows to our new president should be one marked with the sign of peace, not distorted in the snarl of hatred.”
McGuire continued, “The religious vigilantism apparent in the Notre Dame controversy arises from organizations that have no official standing with the church, but who are successful in gaining media coverage as if they were speaking for Catholicism. . . . They have established themselves as uber-guardians of a belief system we can hardly recognize. Theirs is a narrow faith devoted almost exclusively to one issue. They defend the rights of the unborn but have no charity toward the living. They mock social justice as a liberal mythology.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/17/AR2009051702178.html?hpid=topnews
well said!!!
Gale
May 18th, 2009
7:52 am
Go McGuire! “misappropriation of sacred teachings for political ends.” Well said!
USinUK
May 18th, 2009
8:58 am
Hey Gale!!
thought about you last night … I made the slow-roast pork shoulder I told you about … melt-in-your-mouth yumminess!!! hope you had a good weekend!
Billy
May 18th, 2009
9:03 am
TOJ, when you and others defend “enhanced interrogation techniques” by telling us how the people on whom they’ve been used want to kill us, the argument you’re really making is not that waterboarding isn’t torture, rather that torture is justified if the subject is a bad enough person. It doesn’t matter if it’s done to a top Al Qaeda operative or a child, it’s torture.
The real question is whether we flaunt the anti-torture laws and do it anyway. Is it worthwhile? I’m not going to say I wouldn’t accept it in a “ticking time-bomb” scenario but, as our intelligence people tell us, such scenarios never occur. And in the circumstances in which we actually have used it it appears to have been motivated by vengeance and an attempt to link Iraq to Al Qaeda. So basically it came down to, “Well, you’ve told us what you know. Now we’re going to waterboard you until you tell us what the administration wants to hear to justify its war of choice, and we don’t call it torture because you’re not a nice person.”
Sorry, but that doesn’t fly.
The Other Jack
May 18th, 2009
10:16 am
Billy
Waterboarding is torture like being forced to watch Tara Banks is torture.
Please stop disrespecting every American soldier that has been subjected to real torture by comparing this act of college hazing to torture. Look at the post I was responding to. I have had worse feelings about going to a job interview. It’s a bunch of political crap that is blowing up in the face of the criminals who forced the release of this information to our enemies. Keeping people up at night? Give me a break. Any kid stealing a car is subjected to much worse treatment than our country’s enemies. I have said this for months and not a single response. Do you have the courage to compare what American criminals are subjected to as to what terrorists are subjected to?
Let’s open up that dialogue. Compare a dog being used to SCARE a terrorist while they are used to run down and attack car thieves. Let’s talk about police interrogations lasting for days but we can’t interview someone plotting to kill us all but for a few hours How in the hell did they convince you to ignore all these facts?
it’s a free country (so far) but don’t think that because you are told what to think that the rest of America falls for the same bullsh!t.
Gandalf, the White! (The Ryhmin' Rastamon!)
May 18th, 2009
11:07 am
The Catholic Church should ex communicate Notre Dame.
They are SO LAME!
Letting an Anti-Life Muslim speak is rather Funky!
Especially one who has ears like Curious George (that spunky monkey!)
He’s such a liar,
His pants are on fire.
Gale
May 18th, 2009
12:11 pm
Pertinant line in a book I finished yesterday… “If you want to be counted with the good guys, you have to play by the good guy rules.” If it is torture when the bad guys do it to our guys, then it is torture when we use the same techniques. Call it what it is.
USinUK, I envy the yumminess. It rained here, so there was no grilling.
Archie
May 18th, 2009
12:28 pm
Shanti is amazing in that she talks about christianity then she goes along with lying and torture. That attitude is exactly what sickens non-christians. Yes it was a mistake to torture because we agreed to abide by certain rules, we agreed to those rules to protect our people that were captured, in other words, we agreed to certain rules to protect Americans not because we’re weak. Obama is a christian and the lying and mistreatment of a human being bothered him as it should have, thus he put the truth, the truth out there. You can’t just go along with anything because it’s republican and Shanti is starting to sound like a parrot rather than a thinking person and in that case the AJC could pick anyone off the internet to write a column. We need thinking conservatives and thinking liberals writing, working, etc. My thing is follow the rules that you helped create in the first place.
Gale
May 18th, 2009
1:34 pm
Really good comment, Archie. We have been finding the topics lame mostly. But maybe the problem has been the lack of persuasion in the two sides presented.
Archie
May 18th, 2009
2:03 pm
I say this jokingly although I expect the women to beat me up, but men typically know when they’re wrong but they may do the deed anyway whereas women try to justify wrong rather than just admitting the deed is wrong. That’s what I get from reading Shanti’s column. I think about how Bill Clinton said he knew what happened between him and Lewinsky was wrong but he did it because he could whereas Lewinsky is still talking as if there was a genuine romantic interest on his part. Please…get me a break. I feel the same way about this waterboarding in that Cheney,Bush, and the others knew they were torturing but they came up with some stupid phrase such as enhanced interrogation techniques. Justification doesn’t work well for men because we have a real good feeling about being wrong so we either lie and stick with said lie or tell the truth. Republicans(men) are now trying to tell the truth about Pelosi and what is she doing, trying to justify what she knew and what she did not know while never admitting to any wrongdoing.
Gale
May 18th, 2009
2:17 pm
But Archie, Cheney, Bush and team are not saying they knew it was wrong. Wrong is wrong no matter you come up with a different word for the process. In my view, they are just shading the truth by saying they came up with a phrase to describe something that is not explicitly ruled illegal and our lawyers said it was legal, therefore, no foul. Or is that what you said? Could be. I don’t always follow guy-speak. I won’t stick up for Pelosi. I think she is in over her head.
The Other Jack
May 18th, 2009
2:24 pm
Archie
It’s kind of funny to me that after 8 years of absolutely crucifying Bush for anything and everything he did or tried to do, and now those same people are saying that we all need to work together. Do you have any grasp of reality? Please try to pardon at least half of the country for witnessing the largest power grab in the history of the world, people being punished by the government for not bowing to the unions and our leaders apologizing for things that our soldiers haven’t done and not “going along with it”.
USinUK
May 18th, 2009
2:28 pm
Yet more information detailing how torture just doesn’t work … and it wasn’t used to “keep us safe” – it was used to take us to war (a war in which MORE American lives were lost than on 9/11, I might add):
“The Rocky Mountain News asked Cheney in a Jan. 9, 2004, interview if he stood by his claims that Saddam’s regime had maintained a “relationship” with al Qaida, raising the danger that Iraq might give the group chemical, biological or nuclear weapons to attack the U.S.
“Absolutely. Absolutely,” Cheney replied.
A Cheney spokeswoman said a response to an e-mail requesting clarification of the former vice president’s remarks would be forthcoming next week.
“The (al Qaida-Iraq) links go back,” he said. “We know for example from interrogating detainees in Guantanamo that al Qaida sent individuals to Baghdad to be trained in C.W. and B.W. technology, chemical and biological weapons technology. These are all matters that are there for anybody who wants to look at it.”
No evidence of such training or of any operational links between Iraq and al Qaida has ever been found, according to several official inquiries.
It’s not apparent which Guantanamo detainees Cheney was referring to in the interview.
One al Qaida detainee, Ibn al Sheikh al Libi, claimed that terrorist operatives were sent to Iraq for chemical and biological weapons training, but he was in CIA custody, not at Guantanamo.
Moreover, he recanted his assertions, some of them allegedly made under torture while he was being interrogated in Egypt.”
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/68315.html
people being tortured will tell you whatever you want to hear – just to make it stop. that’s not “intel” by any stretch of the imagination.
JustaJew
May 18th, 2009
3:06 pm
Waterboarding is torture like being forced to watch Tara Banks is torture.
Again with this? I’ll repeat my invitation, let’s all have ourselves a nice waterboarding party at your house and since it’s so fun, you get to go first. And after we waterboard you 185 times, if you still don’t think it’s torture, then I’ll change my opinion and agree with you.
Billy
May 18th, 2009
3:21 pm
Our own effin’ people who are trained for waterboarding say it’s torture! They also say that they can use it to get pretty much anybody to confess to pretty much anything.
Archie
May 18th, 2009
3:37 pm
“Or is that what you said? Could be. I don’t always follow guy-speak.” Gale,pat yourself on the back because you admitted you don’t follow guy speak. I did say Bush and company shaded the truth.
” Wrong is wrong no matter you come up with a different word for the process. In my view, they are just shading the truth by saying they came up with a phrase to describe something that is not explicitly ruled illegal and our lawyers said it was legal, therefore, no foul.” Wrong is wrong but remember I said men have to stick with the lie or tell the truth, Bush and Cheney are sticking with the lie. Gale, I was expecting the ladies here to bash me for my generalization but since you acknowledge you don’t understand guy-speak I will move on
The Other Jack
May 18th, 2009
8:59 pm
JustAJew
–let’s all have ourselves a nice waterboarding party at your house and since it’s so fun, you get to go first. And after we waterboard you 185 times,–
Sure. I’m up for it. But of course you will need to set and watch 185 episodes of Tyra Banks without a break. $1,000 says you will break first. Yes. Stupid bet huh?
How about this. We put you in a stolen car and you try to outrun the police for a couple of hours. Then you crash the car and try to run from a vicious attack dog who is trained to clamp down on your arm and if you try to escape, he will rip shreds of skin from your arm. you do that and I will take the waterboarding. Deal?
Not one of you will dare address the fact that the police have much more power over a common car thief than you want the CIA to have over the people who want to blow up our cities. I know every one of you are smart, so how in the hell you are convinced that pouring water over someone’s face warrants investigations of past administrations (For the first time in our country’s history) is beyond me.
OUR COUNTRY IS FALLING APART. I am in a resort in the Caribbean. (Working) Most of the visitors here are European. They are astounded that you are allowing this total bullsh!t to detract from what this Congress is doing to our country..
Thousands of AMERICAN CITIZENS lost their homes today. Thousands more lost their jobs. Tens of thousands of kids that had planned on going to college this fall now have no money to go. Can you PLEASE stop letting the media lead you around by the nose long enough to see what is happening?
Obama promised hope and change. He immediately closes Gitmo and low and behold, now he has 240 of the world’s worst and no where to put them. DUH?!?!?!?!?
He spends more money than all the other presidents combined by claiming that it has to be done to stimulate the economy. So even if you are dumb enough to believe that load of crap, WHY IN THE HELL ARE OUR GREAT GRANDCHILDREN BEING BORN IN DEBT TO FIX THIS ECONOMY, BUT IT KEEPS GETTING WORSE?
How absolutely brainwashed to you need to be in order to believe that watterboarding is worth even discussing?
Billy
So no, you do not have the courage to discuss a comparison between law enforcement and CIA interrogation techniques.
Eat your Wheaties. Take some vitamins and when you can muster the courage to discuss this, you will have some credibility, but until you are ready to address the 20,000 lb elephant in the living room, you are just another indoctrinated liberal who refuses to face the facts.
Billy
May 18th, 2009
10:49 pm
So no, you do not have the courage to discuss a comparison between law enforcement and CIA interrogation techniques.
What are you even talking about? Oh, sorry. I just went back and read your response to my post from this morning. Sorry, I just got back on for the first time sine 9:15 am, and after I read the first line of your response I just sort of spaced out.
I’ll respond to you now…The treatment of our domestic criminals in no way justifies torture of our enemies. Yes, K-9 units use dogs to run down criminals, but they don’t bring them into interrogation rooms to scare out confessions. If this does happen then the officers involved should be fired and locked up with the other criminals. Furthermore, we have the right to have an attorney present when being interrogated by police. We also cannot be held indefinitely without being charged with a crime. Again, if any police are violating these rights, they should pay a severe price for doing so. I fail to see how that affects the discussion at hand.
Why is it that this always happens? Left: “We should limit our use of fossil fuels since burning them emits so many greenhouse gases.” Right: “Cows burp!” Left: “Investing in alternative energies will not only help the environment but also help the economy by creating new jobs and help our security by reducing our dependence on foreign oil.” Right: “Drill, baby, drill!”
Left: “Waterboarding is torture, and we as a nation should be better than that.” Right: “But our enemies do that and worse! But Pelosi knew! But there are other unjust things that also happen, so we shouldn’t concern ourselves with this!”
JustaJew
May 19th, 2009
3:40 am
Then you crash the car and try to run from a vicious attack dog who is trained to clamp down on your arm and if you try to escape, he will rip shreds of skin from your arm. you do that and I will take the waterboarding. Deal?
Now I know without a doubt that you work for TV. because that happens in approx. 1 out of 10,000 cases or so and that’s usually because the officers have been eating a few too many donuts and can’t run the alleged criminal down. As far as I know, dogs are usually used for drug cases and not normally for beat patrol. Now go ahead and tell me how I’m wrong because you’ve worked for TV for the last 3,000 years as the writer, editor, producer, director, composer, cinematographer, stage manager, lighter, make-up artist, costumer, visual effects manager, director of photography, accountant and star for CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX, VH-1, MTV, FOXSports, Lifetime, ESPN, SPEED, truTV, Comedy Central, PBS and the Playboy Channel and of course also for networks in Hong Kong, Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Australia, Georgia (is that how you met your mail-order girlfriend), Ukraine, Russia, Ethiopia, Sudan, China, Thailand, Laos and Micronesia and you’ve seen, SEEN that they use those dogs twice every 10,000 cases and not once like I said…go ahead, I’m waiting…
JustaJew
May 19th, 2009
3:48 am
Hey USinUK,
I just saw a “shocking” news item from your neck of the woods that that obviously pre-pubescent boy Alfie Patten was not the father of the child with that 15yo girl. I don’t know what’s worse, this girl having sex with a 12yr old boy or that she’s got multiple partners. However, as a liberal, I not only want that baby to be aborted, I want that girl’s mother to travel back in time and abort the girl as well!!! (SNARK!!!)
USinUK
May 19th, 2009
7:04 am
JaJ –
wow – you’re not only up early, you’re loaded for BEAR!!! go get ‘em, my friend!!
“I don’t know what’s worse, this girl having sex with a 12yr old boy or that she’s got multiple partners”
there’s just SO. MUCH. WRONG. with this story, the 12-year old Alfie is almost the least of it.
USinUK
May 19th, 2009
7:31 am
JaJ –
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article5734056.ece
this is a little more about the families of the kids: “Both Pattens also have children by other partners; Dennis is a father to 10, one of whom, Jayde, is said to have become a mother at 13.
Since Dennis moved out, neighbours say the family has increasingly become a problem. “At five or six in the morning you hear music blaring out of their house – they are having parties,” said Powell. “[Alfie’s] younger sister is out and about in the street until 10 or 11 o’ clock every night. Alfie himself never seemed to go to school. To look at him you would think butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth until he starts talking and answering you back.””
and
“While her parents are still together, neither works and, according to The Sun, they survive on state benefits. One estimate put their potential hand-outs, including income support, housing benefit, child tax credits and child benefit, at £30,000 a year. Once she turns 16, Chantelle will be eligible for benefits too.
Both sets of parents apparently knew about their children’s relationship and Alfie was allowed to stay at the Steadmans’, where, in a sign of how welcome he was, he kept a spare school uniform.”
this whole story just goes off the WTF charts …
Gale
May 19th, 2009
7:46 am
USinUK, are child services blind in the UK?
On another note: Comments on the new MPG and emmissions standards out of DC? I want to know what is so special and costly (says Detroit) about 35mpg? I got 35mpg in my 84 Mazda 626, not a light mini cars by any stretch. On top of that, I got 300,000 miles before Michigan salt rusted the body too much.
USinUK
May 19th, 2009
7:52 am
Donde esta GtG???
Here’s something Obama is doing that you may actually (GASP!!!) approve of:
The Obama administration is expanding a program initiated by President George W. Bush aimed at checking the immigration status of virtually every person booked into local jails. In four years, the measure could result in a tenfold increase in illegal immigrants who have been convicted of crimes and identified for deportation, current and former U.S. officials said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/18/AR2009051803172.html
my favorite money quote: “Amnesty International and immigrant advocates warn that the change could lead to immigration checks in other arenas and the “criminalization” of illegal immigration.”
um. it’s called ILLEGAL immigration for a reason. it already IS a criminal offense. sheesh.
USinUK
May 19th, 2009
8:00 am
Gale –
“USinUK, are child services blind in the UK?”
((( heavy, heavy sigh )))
there was a horrible story about a 2-year old child that was killed by his mother and boyfriend back in January – child services visited them 60-some-odd times (and the child was seen by health professional around 30 times) but didn’t take the kid out of their custody. The father, the grandmother were begging them to do something, but they didn’t. The kid (an adorable little boy) died a horrendous death that I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.
I could be wrong (and am definitely open to hearing from people who know more about the system than I do), but from stories you read, it seems like the US errs on the side of the kid – doctors and child services are quicker to remove a child from custody rather than risk leaving him/her in a dangerous situation. Here, they seem to err on the parental rights side –
Gale
May 19th, 2009
8:04 am
“criminalization” of illegal immigration.” No wonder people call the WaPo liberal.
USinUK
May 19th, 2009
8:07 am
Gale –
ah, Gale – don’t you start drinking the TOJ kool-aid. it was a quote from Amnesty International and some immigrant groups, what’s the WaPo supposed to do, ignore them when writing the story??
Gale
May 19th, 2009
8:42 am
Apologies, USinUK. I fixated on the URL. It was another situation of ‘consider the source’. I understand why those groups would slant the issue. I actually read the WaPost and had the page up when I read your comment. I had not seen that article. (My day is just starting.) I think Amnesty International is damaging their credibility by saying things like that. What? Countries should not know who is in the country, citizen or not?
When a kid is at physical risk in a home and the authorities know it, they need to be able to remove the child. Foster care isn’t great and no proof against child abuse. However, it is better than known abuse.