Does a family need a collective spiritual life?

Glad you friend doesn’t rape and kill daily Andi, but there is no reference for him about what is right and wrong. Without God you simply do what you “feel” is right. Just like Hitler and just like Stalin. You argument as usual is weak and fraught with feel goodness. Andi, I really hope you quit writing and find a real job when the AJC goes paperless later this year. Liberism is a mental disorder and you are very sick!

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Isn’t Shanti pretty!

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Haven’t we had this conversation before? Do I really need to reiterate the number of atheist/agnostic/humanists in prison vs. the number of believers (of various flavors)?! Do I really need to repost the links to the various studies indicating that morality (and even god-belief) is most likely genetic and evolutionary?

it gets soooo tiresome listening to ‘believers’ (mainly Christians, here in the US) harping on how IMPOSSIBLE it is to be a decent moral person without a big ol’ invisible spankin’ daddy watching your every move, judging your every choice, and making his lists of the ‘good’ people and the ‘bad’ people just waiting to ‘bring you home’ so he can decide if you’ve been a good girl (who gets to stay in the ‘nice place’) or a bad girl, (who gets tortured for all eternity).

don’t we have something better to argue about than religion?

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Gandalf, sometimes we agree, sometimes we don’t agree. How about this question? If I wear a big bright cross around my neck, would you decide I am a moral person if you do not know me? The cross advertises that I am a Christian. As with many advertisements, this would be false. I think people who rely on a set of rules are more easily misled by someone who is not following the “rules”, but claiming they are.

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Mara

–It gets soooo tiresome listening to ‘believers’ (mainly Christians, here in the US) harping on how IMPOSSIBLE it is to be a decent moral person without a big ol’ invisible spankin’ daddy watching your every move, judging your every choice, and making his lists of the ‘good’ people and the ‘bad’ people just waiting to ‘bring you home’ so he can decide if you’ve been a good girl (who gets to stay in the ‘nice place’) or a bad girl, (who gets tortured for all eternity).–

I just don’t get it, Why does that bother you so much? Not what they believe, but that they believe something differently than you? Is that it? I mean, what bothers you about the fact that they believe this?

I believe that there are natural forces that are as real as gravity that cause certain reactions, much like Karma. Some people may be more comfortable by associating a persona with those forces. I don’t see a problem with that. I don’t believe that, but that’s cool. They aren’t hurting me and what they believe isn’t hurting me. Other than the bus loads of Jehovah Witnesses that use to come to my old place, I have never been approached by anyone about this. They are harmless. With the problems that we have in this society, why all the bad feelings toward church ladies?

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TOJ – I don’t relly care what they put their faith in. What irks me is their certainty that I cannot possibly be a decent, moral, worthy person unless I believe it too. History is rife with those deemed ‘immoral’ being deemed unfit for inclusion into society.

For example, GWH Bush, when he was president, made no bones about his feelings. “I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

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G

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D

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J

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E

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U

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GtG –

all he had to do was make some brownies … that would have been enough for me.

hair is on fire (has been all day) – will try to drop in later tonight – if not see you over the weekend!!

have a good one, all!!

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Jesus loves you, but everyone else thinks you’re an a$$hole.

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I thought I would address this from a different angle. Shaunti’s question is about a family’s collective spiritual life. I am reminded a aa few families in my acquaintence where one member, often a parent, got religion and tried to impress it on the rest of the family. In each case, the family was torn apart by disagreements and the religious member’s insistance that they believe the same thing they themselves had come to believe. In that sense, I would have to agree with Shaunti. If the collective family is not in tune spiritually, there is bound to be a few problems. What Shaunti does not seem to accept is that many families may be spiritually in tune without sharing religious beliefs. I do not agree that a child raised by nonbelievers is more likely to become addicted to drugs, as in the example she sites. That is too simple an explanation. There are just as many adicts, child abusers, criminals and what have you raised by strictly religious parents. What IS important is the family cohesiveness, not the religion.

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Pray for jobs.

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Nope, Jesus is what’s important. With out him you resort to writing {dumbass} bumper stickers and using them as you mantra!

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How does a 14 speed work? My 21 speed is 3×7 is a 14 2×7?

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But B, seriously, like everything God created, He loves you too!

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Mr. Paranoid, WHO here said religious people should be persecuted? WHO here said religion should be restricted? I’ve never heard anyone argue that here — only that the government should stay out of religion and not promote any one religion over another, and that religious people should not control the personal lives of others. If I’m wrong, please show me who said that. Conversely, Former President Bush DID INDEED say “I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots,” which sounds like persecution to me. My father the atheist fought for this country, and he’s a good, kind, moral, hard-working, generous man and faithful husband who lives by the golden rule every day of his life. Anyone who maligns his morality deserves a kick in the nuts, but he’s too gracious to do it, and would admonish me for even thinking about it.

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Do you think that religion should be restricted because some people that are religious don’t like you? That’s what I seem to be getting. I could give a hundred examples and you guys would site a hundred reasons why religious people should ALL be persecuted

I think I speak for all of us when I say that NOBODY supports persecuting or restricting the religious. But I suppose like anything else, it depends on what you mean by ‘persecute’.

Some people believe that if the State doesn’t provide special treatment or allow those who speak for the State to endorse a particular belief, they are being suppressed. Some cry ‘persecution’ when they are not allowed to use the tax-payer’s resources to proselytize or discriminate. Some cry ‘restriction’ when they aren’t allowed to put up religous icons in buildings we all own, to hire or fire because their employee doesn’t worship the same god, or when they are required to obey the same laws as everybody else. Some people think that businesses who try to be inclusive by asking them to say “happy holidays” instead of “merry christmas” are restricting their religious beliefs.

So, what do you mean by ‘restriction’ and ‘persecution’?

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around Chistmas I say “Merry Christmas”! It’s a cool way to ferret out the silly ones who say, “I am not Christian?” I then say sorry, so, then, are you a Christ killer or a just a heathen?” or “have fun in hell!” It’s rather funny.

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I have no problem with people being in God, but the rules of religion are just absurd sometimes. No eating meat on Friday. Say ten hail marys and you will be forgiven. Confess your sins to a priest. Why can’t I confess them straight to God? Why do I need a medium?

Why didn’t Shaunti mention preachers children? Out of the ones that I have met, they have been some of the wildest kids I have ever met.

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TOJ –

“Well that’s nice. I didn’t realize that you were a medical professional. I’m sure you always call a discoloration on your finger nail a chromonychia, and when you have a little gas, I’ve heard you mention having a bout of eructation so many times in the past.”

I’m a lady. we don’t get gas. we just explode when we hit 50. sorry that proper terms seem to send you into “fits” – I assume that means you would prefer to say wee-wee, poo-poo and hoo-ha rather than use their proper words, as well. some of us are adults. some are not. I see which camp you fit in.

“What I am talking about is a pregnant woman who refuses to say that her unborn child is a human. That sort of thing, but since you have obviously never seen the debates, I guess this is the best you can do. The next time the discussion breaks out, I’ll point it out and then maybe then you will have nowhere to run . . . er . . . I mean you will further understand the situation.”

if you have a problem with something that Sunshine says, take it up with her. not me. whether the fetus is a human isn’t in question — no one here has ever asserted that the fetus is that of a puppy, pony or prairie dog. the issue is whether that fetus should be treated the same as the woman carrying it. or, at least that’s the issue for me. if you want to know Mara’s, AW’s, Sunshine’s or anyone else’s opinions on the matter, ask THEM – I’m not the spokesperson for All Pro-Choice People.

“Entertainment and news? Ring a bell? Cronkite and Limbugh? Do you recognize any sort of difference? David Brinkly and Sean Hannity. Any spark at all?”

see, here’s the difference … Sean Hannity is on FOX NEWS. Neil Cavuto is on FOX NEWS. Glenn Beck is on FOX NEWS. NEWS. Not the Fox entertainment channel. NEWS. Not Comedy Central. Not hosting their own late-night comedy/chat show. NEWS. Fair and balanced, indeed. Limbaugh – he’s his own animal – he’s “entertainment” when it serves him to be (usually when he’s in hot water for saying something he shouldn’t … like calling a serviceman a “puke”).

Lastly, re: Barney Frank – his home was used for prostitution by his lover. This may come as a surprise to you, but one’s partners/spouses/SOs CAN do things in your home that you don’t know anything about. It happens every day. The situation was investigated and Frank was found to be innocent of having anything to do with it. Then, the good people of MA continued to send him to DC because he is still one of the smartest guys in the room …

and with that, I’m heading home after a MUY long day.

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As a five-foot-two-inch unarmed civilian, I can promise you I HAVE NEVER RESTRICTED ANYONE in their free exercise of religion. I have, however, summoned the courage to call it like I see it. WHAT A WHINY-A– TOOL! O’Really and InShannity make enormous advertising revenues convincing you there’s a war on Christmas, but you can’t produce a single piece of evidence that anyone is persecuting you other than to repeat Galdalf’s favorite request that you please STFU with your whiny poor-me, I’m-so-persecuted crapola. Nobody cares who or what you worship.

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He will come again, and no jail can hold Him!

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Gandalf, earnest question here. (I’m not an atheist, just distrustful of professed believers.) Is there a way tell the “True Christians” from the ones who use religion to further their own personal agendas or as an excuse to hate/discriminate/judge/malign/control others, without taking the time to get close to them first? Do I have to risk being slimed in order to find one I can trust?

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True Christians can be hard to find. Took me 47 years. BUT you can tell true Christians by thier love, of everyone. Not restricted by race creed color or orientation. Trust your instincts, you can find a good group of Christians if you try. So Gay Bashers, not Christians…Haters aren’t part of the Christian way.

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But Gandalf, )you can tell true Christians by thier love, of everyone. Not restricted by race creed color or orientation.) How do you know they are Christian and not Jewish or Buddist or Hindu, or Pagan or various other religions which also profess love of everyone?

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Gale, that’s easy! They have a Bible! Duh!
JWs are too exclusive, they like Mormons make stuff up, so they aren’t going nowhere but down south!

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AW I always say whats real, real funny!
TGIF!

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There you have it folks: Slime or Substance? You decide. I’m retreating back to my “I don’t trust any of you self-righteous f—ers” position. Thanks for the beautiful nano-moment, G. As you know, those never last.

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I thought Satan made apple pie?

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Whitesnake with the Cherry Pie?
I get confused…

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OMG! Poison not Whitesnake “she’s my Cherry Pie”. Please Rock and Roll, forgive me!

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USinUK

–If you have a problem with something that Sunshine says, take it up with her. not me. whether the fetus is a human isn’t in question — no one here has ever asserted that the fetus is that of a puppy, pony or prairie dog. the issue is whether that fetus should be treated the same as the woman carrying it. or, at least that’s the issue for me. if you want to know Mara’s, AW’s, Sunshine’s or anyone else’s opinions on the matter, ask THEM – I’m not the spokesperson for All Pro-Choice People.–

I was just asking for your opinion of their stance, (not of them, for taking that stance) but for the first time since I have known you, you don’t seem to have one How strange.

–see, here’s the difference … Sean Hannity is on FOX NEWS. Neil Cavuto is on FOX NEWS. Glenn Beck is on FOX NEWS. NEWS. Not the Fox entertainment channel. NEWS. Not Comedy Central. Not hosting their own late-night comedy/chat show. NEWS. Fair and balanced, indeed. Limbaugh – he’s his own animal – he’s “entertainment” when it serves him to be (usually when he’s in hot water for saying something he shouldn’t … like calling a serviceman a “puke”).–

See here your problem. You’re a little late. CNN has offered entertainment programming on the CABLE NEWS NETWORK for as long as they have been on the air. But by your standard, Nancy Grace should be considered a news anchor. So should Larry King. Sorry, that is BS. You listened to the MSM and they made you out to be a fool, yet again. (Remember the MSNBC deal where they claimed to be playing the entire interview with that STARTED WITH HER ANSWER) Political Commentators should attend political rallies.

–Lastly, re: Barney Frank – his home was used for prostitution by his lover. This may come as a surprise to you, but one’s partners/spouses/SOs CAN do things in your home that you don’t know anything about. It happens every day. The situation was investigated and Frank was found to be innocent of having anything to do with it. Then, the good people of MA continued to send him to DC because he is still one of the smartest guys in the room …–

The good people of MA also keep sending a man that left a friend in a canal to drown because he was too drunk to pull her out of the car that he had drunkenly driven off the road. There is a reason why the term “Yellow Dog Democrat” was invented.

Men were booking sexual episodes with male prostitutes out of his home apparently at all hours and they did this for a year and a half. I suppose that you believe that there is no way that he could actually be telling a lie to keep himself out of jail by saying that he had no idea, but I believe that he just might be just human enough to lie to keep himself out of prison. Call me crazy.

But the question is whether or not his standards of proof would be the same as say, any other gay man. What do you think? Do you think that he just might have been given just a tad of special consideration because he was a US Congressman. Again, call me crazy, but I do believe it.

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Gale

– Wow, that sounds like the argument I often hear about same sex marriage.–

And is that restricting or persecuting gay people? I think it is.

Once again, you get it.

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AW

-O’Really and InShannity make enormous advertising revenues convincing you there’s a war on Christmas, but you can’t produce a single piece of evidence that anyone is persecuting you–

Just because you don’t recognize the proof doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

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The problem, of course, is nothing is dependable, except death, and the bad inevitably following the good. The road to hell is paved with good faith and good intentions, so too is death itself. The crutch of superstition can’t change that basic fact.

Moral and ethical behavior rewards us here on earth, not in some fantastic airy-fairy land in the sky. Love one another is the basics of how us humans co-exist in a complex world. When we stray from that, the world stops working.

Fundamentalism in all its religious avatars only serves to put us at each others throats. It is fear-based, and “hate-the-other” based. Human civilization cannot progress as long as it is saddled with it.

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AW

I don’t know what it is about Frank. i have had to work with so many slimy little people like him, being in a creative field. And to think that he actually has a huge amount of real, national power. It’s just creepy. i don’t think it is about his sexual orientation. There are lots of strong gay men. He’s the kind of guy that if you shook his limp hand, you would want to run to the bathroom and wash it. And he’s very arrogant. It’s like he was born to be a victim and he is going to play his righteous indignation to the hilt. I’ll bet his entire like, people have wanted to just slap the sh!t out of him.

As far as everyone else you mentioned, I say put them all away. None deserve special consideration, in fact, they should be held to a higher standard.

have a good weekend, Kimmy.

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“I don’t really care what they put their faith in. What irks me is their certainty that I cannot possibly be a decent, moral, worthy person unless I believe it too. History is rife with those deemed ‘immoral’ being deemed unfit for inclusion into society.”

Mara–As a young person, I felt out of place when I attended church because I had great difficulty accepting stories which defied the laws of physics (and common sense). When I hung around people who seemed to have great certainty that they would be spending their “afterlife” in some idyllic place, I felt self-conscious for not having that same certainty. When asked directly if I was “saved” or not, I usually didn’t have the courage to express my true feelings about the matter.

Then finally, as an adult, I decided to take a second look into Christianity and read the Bible cover to cover over a period of time, and did a substantial amount of supplementary reading about the History of the Bible. Not surprisingly, I ultimately found out that the vast majority of self-professed “Christians” actually know very little about what the Bible actually says, or doesn’t say. Most of the practices of “Christians” today are decidedly non-Biblical in origin, including the celebration of Christmas and Easter, along with Sunday worship.

As a result, I developed a much greater certainty in my own views of cosmology and morality, and no longer felt intimidated whenever some “Christian” blowhard started spouting off. Now don’t get me wrong. I think the Bible is a great source of explanation, wisdom and guidance, and remains one of the premier guides, if not THE premier guide, on how to live a life well. In a general way, I agree with Gandalf’s statements regarding the necessity of having moral absolutism at the core of one’s views, along with the dangers of moral relativism. In other words, I’m still a right-wing SOB, just not one who uses some “literalist” claim about the Bible as my basis for being so.

I understand that part of your post also refers to the more serious ostracism/persecution of “non-believers” that has occurred throughout History. Fortunately, that is no longer much of a reality in the “Christian” nations, but remains a big problem in the Muslim world.

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the basics

–that we still believe that a legalist and deistic teleological perspective is the only one that yields ethical people.–

Morality and ethics are taught, not inherited. Most modern parents usually can’t be trusted to help their kids with algebra. So where do kids get that training? There is no moralistic teaching in schools and attendance in church, much to the delight of progressives, is in a steep decline.

I keep reading that progressives insist that there is no difference between religious people and non religious people as far as morality and/or ethics. In the meanwhile, these same progressives have no problem with the slaughter of one tenth of our population because with our new lack of moral training, we have teens having sex with everybody They use examples of moralistic individuals that claim to be progressives while we hear examples of religious people without obvious morals. Examples are not an accurate barometer. I would think that a very accurate barometer would be to compare the teen pregnancies and arrests in a secular school as compared to a religious school, with both schools drawing from the same demographic and/or region.

Instead of each progressive marching in and spouting their small sermon about how religion results in people with no more stringent morals than people with no faith, I would think that a single person would want to offer statistics or facts that compare two institutions. In a study conducted by Tufts University, ase.tufts.edu/econ/papers/linda_loury.pdf it was found that “Catholic girls are less likely to give birth (at 20.5%) compared to non-Catholic girls (27.7%).” That is also taking into account that because of the abhorrence to abortions in the Catholic faith, the numbers are tilted, since Catholic girls are much less likely to obtain an abortion.

This is the conclusion of that paper:

V. Conclusion
This paper examines the relationship between the likelihood of giving birth as a teen and the
Catholic percentage of religious adherents in one’s county. The results show that, independent of the individual’s own religious background and socioeconomic characteristics of the individual’s
neighborhood, the percentage Catholic has a large and significant impact on choices that alter teen
fertility. The paper also presents evidence that the percentage Catholic affects teen births through changes in the peer’s attitudes and attempts to conform to the behavior of one’s peers. This research suggests that other policy, environmental, or technological changes that alter attitudes and behavior of peers may have similar effects by changing the distribution of options individuals are willing to consider.

If you have a problem with this research, please offer alternative research that says that non-religious people are as moral as religious people. Should be a simple task if what all these progressives are saying is true.

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Shaunti is a traditionalist type of person and there’s nothing wrong with that and since I go to church 3 out of 4 Sundays I say yes to the topic question and no to the topic question. There are obviously people that do well morally and yet they have no real spiritual life. Shaunti is just like a lot of people I know that just plain don’t understand other people with views different from their own. If you were raised in a family that attended church regularly and now you don’t then you may have problems but if you were like Andrea and you weren’t raised in a household where religion was not in the foreground then you won’t have any problems with or without a collective spiritual life. Shaunti writes from the point of view that most church-going folk would have and that includes my church which is very traditional and the folk do good work but all church folk have to, have to, have to understand everybody simply does not believe in God and that does not make them bad people. Atheists have to understand the same thing about believers. Those last two statements have probably hurt some feelings but until people understand those last two statements you will always have this debate which will solve nothing.

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USinUK

BTW. What do you think about Obama and the Congress pulling education vouchers for 15,000 students in the Washington DC area? Instead of paying at the most $7,500 for students to avoid one of the worst systems in the country, they will be paying $15,000 per student and the students will be lucky if they survive the year.

Beck had a family on his show. It was a Mom and three daughters. The oldest was 16 and had been attending a private school for several years. Her mother had attended the DC school system and the poor woman could barely speak English. As desperately as she tried, she just didn’t know what correct Engish was supposed to sound likie. When they asked the 16 year old a question, damn, she was someone I would hire in a minute. Articulate, logical, intelligent and thoughful. When the secretary of education was asked about the criminal behavior of the Congress/Unions, his answer was: We will do everything we can to see that those 15,000 kids get to graduate from those great private schools. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE KIDS FROM NOW ON?

So how is that HOPE and CHANGE for the students in the DC area? YOUR party won that one over the students. They will be forced to go to one of the worst and most violent school systems in the country, and don’t give me that crap about “the schools need to be fixed.” The unions and government have RAN those schools for years and have done nothing but make them less and less effective. In the meanwhile, Blacks are looking just like the DIXIECRATS like em. Ignorant and can barely speak English. George Wallace would be damn proud of his party over this one. I guess this would confirm that specific WHite people ARE just trying to hold the Black Man down. Too bad that YOUR party is so corrupt that they are using a Black man as an excuse to do it.

The people you support are power hungry criminals that don’t gve a damn about anyone but their own power. When are you going to wake up?

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USinUK

Waiting for any source that says that Hannity is a news anchor . . . Without presenting that, all we have is desperation on your part.

Waiting. Can you prove a completely untrue point? You are wrong again and it all boils down to you trusting the MSM. Sad. Really sad.

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Wow. I sho kope i can get a job, not being able to read or write and all.

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USinUK

BTW, The school that the girl had been attending was the same private school that Obama’s kids attend. I can’t help but wonder why you wouldn’t want these poor kids to have a chance at that kind of an education. Is it race? I’m just asking a Democrat straight out, is it that the Democrats are really still resentful of Black people? What I have read on the intyernet is the opponests of vouchers say that there is no statistics that prove that the kids to any better. If that is the case, shouldn’t Obama’s kids be attending Washington DC public schools? Isn’t this a real issue of CHOICE?

I’m not dropping this. This is the perfect example of why Democrats are so extremely dangerous.

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TOJ –

wow. short on that lithium prescription again, I see. (or are there a lot of empty Thunderbird bottles rolling about at your feet??) cuz those voices in your head really aren’t doing you any favors.

I am against school vouchers, but am for opening up school registration to allow kids to attend any school in their county (provided they can get their own transportation there). The reasons I am against school vouchers will probably surprise you:

1) when religious schools start accepting government $$$, the government will have leverage to dictate what they teach/who they hire. having attended religious education most of my undergrad education, I’d like to see these types of schools maintain their independence.

2) just because you receive a voucher doesn’t mean you can attend the school of your choice – private schools can still discriminate against students they may not want (minority kids, kids of different religions, special needs kids or those with disabilities). if enough private schools did this, the public schools would become the refuge of the unwanted – which is what vouchers is supposedly trying to fix in the first place.

if you want to believe that I have those opinions because I hate black people and want to keep them down, then have a ball. you have pretty much proven yourself to be so blinded by hatred of the Dems that it really doesn’t matter what we say, you see us all as hippie-dippie, hood-wearing baby-killers, anyway.

as for Hannity, my point still stands – if ANY host of ANY show on CNN had gone on the air in 2003 and said “go to my website to find out about the anti-war protests in your city” (which is what Hannity and others on FOX did with the tea parties … to the point where one of their little blondie anchors actually admitted that they did PR for the tea parties), your head would have exploded.

but, as usual, IOKIYAR. we expect nothing less from you.

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GtG –

by the way … thought of you this morning – made homemade hot cross buns for the hubster and my MIL this morning … but didn’t feel like making the pastry cross bit, so I called them hot agnostic buns …

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Good morning Unitarian Episcoplian!

I tried making one recipe of HCBs on Easter weekend, but they were more like hot cross ROCKS … so, I just wanted to try a different recipe (which wound up totally FAB). here, they don’t do an icing cross, it’s a pastry cross on top (the same pastry as a pie crust) and I just couldn’t be bothered …

and, yes, having them ANY season is good!!!

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Lyra –

that sounds like what you’d get with a Mad Libs version of the Our Father!

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One a penny, two a penny hot agnostic buns,

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USinUK, April 19th, 2009 2:18 pm, agreed on the vouchers issue. If the country heads full on into the voucher path, we may as well shut down the public school system. I agree completely with the notion of government vouchers going to a religious school. It is the same as government funding to the religious entity and should remove any tax exemption as well as subject them to federal guidelines and reporting for all areas. Since religious schools are often havens for some from their kids rubbing elbows with the unwashed masses, I think they should be opposed to vouchers.

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Gale, sometimes I wish I was smart enough to have written it.

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Gale –

“If the country heads full on into the voucher path, we may as well shut down the public school system.”

and don’t you think that’s WHY the GOP is for it … ???

the funny thing is that all the republicans I know (particularly my brother) are against vouchers because they do. not. want. government money to have an influence on private schools.

I just find it ironic that they don’t want government money to go towards providing health care for all but they DO want government money to go towards funding private education for all …

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Why do you single out black people, TOJ? There are many white people that are getting a subpar education and speak in an unintelligible English.

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DEATH TO CASTRO!

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GtG –

“Yes EXPAT let’s promote the wonder paradise created by Castro and his murderous buddy Che Guava!”

che guava??? sounds like a type of smoothie you’d get at one of those yogurt/whole grain muffin snack bars …

we’ve worked with and had economic relations with plenty of other dictators who have made Castro and Che look like mice. one whose name rhymes with Maddam springs to mind …

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Saddam was a piece o trash, but like rollo said, he was kickin’ with the Iranians! Che was the biggest piece of dung this hemisphere has ever seen! When I see people in his t-shirt, I trip them, elbow them and kick them. I am not nice to Che supporters!

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Happy Holiday to you too, Mara!

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Help won’t get you high Mara! hehe, RAGWEED!

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Hemp: Yet another thing the US govermment is stubborn and illogical about.

Ironman, while I agree in concept, I would not relate the ability to learn the body language and facial expressions of a family group with ESP or spirituality. One is a rather closed system, while the other transcends the group. ESP may be stronger when one is familiar with another. But ESP does not require a physical presence.

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Neil Boortz said the other day that people who went to “government” schools SHOULD NOT VOTE. He says government schools are “the problem.” Using my public-school-educated powers of deduction, I presume what he’s saying is that “Only those educated in PRIVATE schools should have a part in selecting our leaders.” Stuff that makes me go, “Hmmmmm…” and “Whatta schmuck!”

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Well, okey-dokey. If we’re gonna discuss vouchers, then I have to weigh in. I’ve taught in GA public schools for twenty years, so I have some knowledge on the subject. Vouchers are a one-way ticket to ruin, both for public and private schools. Stay with me here and maybe you’ll understand.

1. Public schools have the curricula and well-trained teachers. Teachers who are substandard don’t last and generally don’t stay. We take kids at all levels and from every kind of background and try to educate them. Private schools, by their very nature, are more selective and can pick an choose who they take. Thus, they can weed out the “undesirable” element. They don’t have to update curricula or change anything they don’t want to change. Their teachers don’t have to be certified or qualified by any professional standards. Private schools also don’t pay as well, so they have a hard time keeping teachers who find themselves unable to make ends meet on their salaries. The turnover rate among private school teachers is as high as it is in public schools.

2. Private schools succeed because they have a HIGH level of parental involvement. Look at public schools like say, Milton HS for example. Public school, successful, well-known. Parents are involved and pushing their children to succeed much like pricey private schools. Compare that to say, Tri-Cities HS. Lower socio-economic level, less parental involvement, less successful. Simple as that.

3. Vouchers will only allow for the further entrenchment of people in poverty. Those who can afford to pay the difference will use the vouchers to pull their kids out of public schools. Those who can’t will just have to take what they can get. For those who can’t transport the kids, how will vouchers help them? Plus, every time Junior fails a class or whines about a teacher, the parent(s) will simply pull the kid and move him. How long will it take until the parent(s) realize Junior is the problem- after he’s failed his way out of four, five, six schools in a couple of years? All the bouncing around won’t help the kid succeed.

4. Private schools will soon figure out that the voucher dollars matter to the budget. Many will begin lowering admissions standards and forcing teachers to put up with whoever walks in so that the school can get the money. Pretty soon, they’ll be no better than the supposedly substandard public schools. Not all will, but I bet those that are struggling to stay open will do whatever it takes to draw those voucher dollars in. How will that be any better?

Vouchers without lots of guidelines simply won’t work for long. If the schools in a district aren’t making the grade, so to speak, then it’s incumbent upon parents and community leaders to get involved and demand better, both from the schools and the community they serve. I’ve seen it happen in my district, and scores have move steadily upward as more parents get the message that they matter and they have a system that wants their involvement. We do better because we know they’re there and expecting more from us, from the kids, and from themselves. There’s the cure for education, and it isn’t simple. It’s doable though, and vouchers won’t make it happen

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Hi lozen Much Much welcome back

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Mara, I strongly agree. It is a bad direction to hire private companies for police work. Notice the problems with Blackwater, and that was not even on our soil. I think it is a serious legal struggle waiting to happen. If a community needs more police, they should hire policemen. We ample legal presidence for problems associated with officers of the government. Rent-a-cops should be used, if needed, for traffic, prisoner trasport, building security, etc, IF they are needed at all. One of my favorite movie quotes, (I never remember exactly, so it’s time to watch again.)) “This business will get out of hand very quickly.”

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Gandalf – it isn’t at the Federal level…yet

Gale – What I can’t understand is how this could possibly be legal! Yeah, like you I can see hiring a private firm for crowd control, maybe guarding government buildings/property, or a ‘neighborhood watch’ kind of thing…but actual law enforcement? I don’t think so.

the whole idea just creeps me out.

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Mara usually the people employed by private companies are ex-police officers or police officers on part-time. All will probably get the same kind of screening cops get, (if not better because private companies can use resources & hiring practices the state cannot) and probably the only difference would be–insurance & pay. Because its a private company the cops would not be getting the lifetime coverage most on-duty officers get–they will not have ‘the fleet’ of cruisers that sit in a garage two years waiting for city to pay up so they can repair said vehicles–actually they might have MORE resources and NEWER resources than the city’s antiquated computers and stuff. They would also be subject to firing without the big reviews that take 6 months or more that leave bad officers still on payroll. There would be less bureaucracy–the private hired chief would be subject to firing as well.
There are many high-crime areas that require more patrols & back up than current tax-based revenues supply. If your home is in one of those districts wouldn’t it be nicer to have some kind of law enforcement presence than one patrol car going by once a day?

I dont feel we loose any citizen rights by this. They would not be unloading criminals at some private undisclosed location but at local jails–so processing would be complete by law. They would also have to work with local cops…so probably one private would work with one officer thus doubling the amount of law officers available.

Speaking of temps though–how many people in law enforcement are actually temp workers? Lots. Doing jobs that should be done by professionals but because of budget cuts–are done by civilian workers. Jails are now big private corporations–but no one raises much stink about jail guards not being state employees–
There are a lot of police officers & detectives who are not state employees and are freelance already… but everyone MUST play by the law and face consequences when they don’t. The first shot fired/arrest made will be scrutinized 700% more than any regular altercation

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Thanks Gandalf. I love that moment. I just wish I could remember it correctly. Time to watch the movie again, definitely. As for being appropriate to the subject Mara identified, I hope we will live through it.

Lyrazel, your rationale, while sound, puts me in mind of the beginning of RoboCop. Maybe I am just in movie mode this morning. The city is out of control and they hire a private firm to take on the really bad elements? It leads to a bad end.

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UsinUk

Yes, because I would like for poor Black kids to be able to attend good schools, I must be drunk or on drugs. After all, (according to you) why would anyone want fair treatment for a Black person?

It’s pretty easy not to be prejudice against a slick, half-white Chicago lawyer. The test (which you could not begin to pass) is whether or not you want that poor Black child to break out of the Democrat’s welfare system and be able to use that education to take advantage of the same opportunities that the rest of us have.

Your straw stance against vouchers going to religious schools is nothing but nonsense. I am a problem solver, unlike you. The problem in the Washington DC area with the vast majority of Black people is that they are forced to attend one of the worst and most violent school systems in our country. The problems IS NOT that the government is trying to take over religious schools. It is always a matter of gauging POTENTIAL problems against current massive problems. You don’t want vouchers because they might, someday, somehow, put the schools in a position where they might turn down the vouchers.

It’s the same old crap from you. You will walk the party line no matter what. It doesn’t matter about the kids. Their ability to have a good life doesn’t stack up to your fear that religious schools might be influenced by the government. I call a giant bullsh!t on that one. Once again, I am for the kids and you are for the democrats. This is the running theme against liberals. Yellow Dog Democrats weren’t so dangerous when they were just sheep, voting for out of power has-beens. But now that the democrats are showing what fascists they really are, you blind sheep are more dangerous than the National Socialist Workers Party supporters you voted for.

As far as Sean Hannity, your stance means nothing because it is simply wrong and you know it is. You needed to redefine a political commentator’s job as being a news anchor before you weren’t made out to be a fool (yet again) by listening to the lying main stream media. You are the fool, no matter what you claim. I have watched the field that I work in become more and more liberal over the years. I know the reporters and i know some of the anchors, They are all at least as liberal as you. If my head was going to explode, it would have exploded a thousand time a year from 1972 until now. The fact that you think CNN promoting a demonstration would unset me just shows how really clueless you are about whet the media is really doing.

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GtG -

jsyk …

everytime you say “Barry”, I think “Barry White” ( … can’t get enough of your love, baby … )

RF –

What GOB said!!!

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Personally, TOJ, (and not by any means speaking for USinUK,) I find it a bit off that you focus on poor BLACK kids. Not all kids in city schools are black; a majority maybe, especially in some cities. I have no idea why they congregate in cities. Maybe an urban planner does. Anyway, it may have been a focus on DC an Atlanta that prompted the ‘poor black kids’ comment. I will accept that it probably was and in these cities it is pretty much true. Cities do have problems and part of it is because teachers do not want to teach in the cities. The challenge is making the schools a place they do want to teach, and a big part of that is getting parents to be involved. Failing parental involvement, we need to get some adults the kids will respect involved in the lives of kids. People have tried and it is a major challenge. How do we teach respect to kids that have learned to equate respect with the biggest, meanest kid in the gang?

Leaving that for a moment, let me point out a different problem with schools; rural schools. My exposure to kids in a small town class D high school was awful. The school was poorly funded, had awful teachers, (except for one,) and a sparse curriculum. IMO, it should have been closed. Those kids would have been better served riding a bus an hour to a larger school. What should we do about schools that cannot even teach biology and chemistry every year?

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TOJ–if we removed Insurance Companies out of health care–All Americans could get coverage. Insurance companies are there to make profit (not because they love us) thus their exorbitant rates and their ability to remove undesirables with health issues from their rolls or charge more for sick people (who should not be penalized for being sick) created the health dilemma we are in now. Hospitals would charge one flat rate for said care–of course–with this means fancy private doctors could still bill exorbitant rates to special patients but their high rate wont affect everyday people. Flat-rate service billing works.

Jane Doe can still go to the recently-laid off Floorshime Shoe Salesman now a Breast enhancement surgeon and Botox specialist for all her beauty treatments but it wont cost me more when she is admitted into emergency and cannot pay.

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Lyrazel, Good post. I would subsidize education after 8th grade, but not require it. To continue, one would need to pass an entrance exam. Now, along the lines of other discussions here, continuing education after 8th grade would include various vocational schools as well as college prep. Those kids who are uninterested in schools today are mostly uninterested because they see no relevance to their immediate life. How many times do they hear about college grads who are working at Best Buy or McDonalds? A vocational school would help them immediately rise out of poverty. If the kid still wants to throw that away? Oh well, there will always be some. But as you say, there is no point to wasting time and money on the kid that doesn’t want to learn.

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GAle

The DC school system is the only system that has been effected. The rest of the voucher programs are state sponsored. The effected population is right at 95% Black. The Union Friendly / Education unfriendly democrats could only legally effect the one system, which of course they did.

I don’t care about a school system that has had one of the highest budgets in the country per student and has produced one of the worst systems. they spend $7,500 on vouchers and spend $15,000 per student when they stay in the DC school system so it is actually cheaper to send the kids to private schools. But that $7,500 doesn’t go to NEA Member teachers, so the bureaucrats don’t get the money.

Let there be no mistake, no matter how much money is thrown at the system, unless the unions are tossed out with 99% of the administration, the schools will not get any better. It is not a matter of money, it is a matter of incompetence.

Isn’t it funny how so many on here want all the CEOs thrown out of GM for incompetence, but they support the NEA and the administration of the most expensive and worst school system in our country? .

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Lyrazel

Bring on the universal Health Care. So far no one has offered it. THe Democrats are offereing to take care of kids. Big deal. Kids are mostly healthy.

When the democrats start talking about taking care of 50 and 60 years olds, I’l start to believe them. Until then, it’s all just more liberal bullsh!t that most are just too smart to buy.

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It would be a lot easier to engage a student in acedemic studies to complement the “passion” studies if the literature/math/science studies relate to the discipline being studied. It should not be hard and would even be satisfying to the teacher, I would think. Molecular gastronomy as a science experiment?

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Gale, you do remember who said that line? The should have been POTUS Fred Thompson! We sure blew that one Red Team!

Why Magnet Schools? Do Magnets affect the ability to learn? What next? Pyramid Schools?

Barry was the name he used when I met him back in HI! He loved to go up to North Shore and smoke his buds.

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Should Miss California have been brutally attacked by that queer? Was her answer bad enough to get her a 0? He shouldn’t have asked that question. I hate his actions, but of course I love him.

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OOOOps I said: States where the 3x laws did not go into effect do not have the issues like GA, CA, AZ
I meant: States where the 3x laws did not go into effect do not have the issues like GA, CA, AZ does.

Please forgive. One word does make all the difference.

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If we take the illegals and children of illegals out of our schools, and send them packin’ our schools will be INSTANTLY better!

And like RAMADAMADINGDONG suggests we kill all the jewish children, do you believe that guy? Iran is run by crazy people.

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Lyrazel, yes, RoboCop is the extreme manifestation of private, for profit, law enforcement and we hope life never imitates that art.

Gandalf, Yes, I remembered it was Fred. That part wasn’t enough to get me to vote for him. I never watched Law and Order. I had to go look up your Miss California reference. What brutal attack are you talking about? He didn’t like her answer? It is a fluff competition. Judging is subjective. I think he asked a controversial question and should have judged it based on the merits of the answer. As it turned out, her answer seemed rather a by the book “Christian” response.

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EXPAT the most important thing about Barry is that he had the good weed. He was always good for a joint or two.

All Else: Yesterday wasn’t Hemp Day you dumbassi! It was Adolph’s Birthday! Dumbasses! He kilt almost as many people as STALIN! Che was just cruel and not smart enough to go on thier scale, but he was right there with these two giants in intent. Che Guava! SUCKED

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btw … today’s the Queen’s birthday …

HAPPY BIRTHDAY BETTY!!!

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EXPAT I am in a same sex marraige! Same sex every time!
GALE! PLEASE! This is still the US of A! Can you not move to KALIFORNIA? OR Iowa (midwest homo-heaven) ? Mass? Vermint?

Well here is a list of states that are fag friendly:
The U.S. states of New Jersey and New Hampshire offer civil unions with all state-level rights and responsibilities of marriage. Also, Oregon, the District of Columbia and Washington have domestic partnership laws that grant most of the state-level rights and responsibilities of marriage. Maine, Colorado and Maryland grant certain limited state-level rights and responsibilities of marriage through domestic partnerships, and Hawaii has reciprocal beneficiary laws, which also has a few certain, limited, state-level rights and responsibilities of marriage.

You can move!

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GALE by choose my Kalifornia meant you could have your supreme court decide the issue. Or is that vote? Well it matters not, the supremes rule!

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Gale –

“The Queen’s B-day and you still have to work? What good is a monarchy if they can’t give everyone their bithday off?”

I think we should get St. George’s day off (this Thursday) – Scotland gets St. Andrew’s day off (30 Nov) and Ireland gets St. Paddy’s off … I don’t think Wales gets St. David’s day off, though. I think it’s great that Parlaiment is encouraging people to wear their red and white and are asking all government bodies to fly the St. George’s cross along with the Union Jack. Huzzah!

GtG –

“Quit listening to her and just stare at them TATAs!”

I’ve got ta-tas of my own, why stare at someone else’s??

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The stench of the bigotry here is more than I can stomach. Usually one has to go to a landfill in August to enjoy such putrid aromas. You must be so proud of yourselves.

G – I’m sure Jesus Christ appreciates you praising him in one breath and emitting such flatulence in the next. YUK! I never thought I’d say this, but you beat out the good-Christian-hate-filled-teacher for the “NO GREATER STENCH” award here on W2W. Please collect your trophy and choke on your celebratory lunch meat.

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Is AW on the rag? What did I say?

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Panties in a wad panties in a wad panties in a wad

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Golly, I go to lunch and look what happens. Gandalf, it does me no good at all to go to Vermont or any other state to marry if I cease to be married as soon as I cross the state line. Can you think on the implications of that for your marriage for a moment? Suppose you were married in GA, but when you were vacationing in DC, you were not considerred married? File your federal taxes jointly? The nice married lesbians and gay meen, who are still legally married in CA btw, cannot file federal taxzes jointly. Since most states require you to file the same for state and federal, they cannot file jointly even in a state where they are legally married. Little things like that mean a lot. But hey, I don’t want to dwell on a topic that will not be solved here or soon.

Personally, I find backs much sexier; men’s and women’s.

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its still a good post, Gale

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I had to do a bit of research Gandalf. Apparently Article IV, Section 1 of the United States Constitution, commonly known as the Full Faith and Credit Clause is being viewed as the chink in the same-sex marriage prohibition wall. Basically, it seems to contain a requirement for states to honor legal contracts from other states. Law seems constant and always in motion. I note that Section 10, clause 1 allows states to coin money as long as it is silver or gold. That changed.

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Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

That is what you are quoting Gale, I think my clause is spot on, refering to the contract of marriage. And that clause doesn’t allow states to coin money, it specifically prohibits it. NO STATE SHALL….

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Backs? As is Baby’s got back?

I like square butts and I just can’t lie….

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Was it stupid queer blogger?
Well, it’s Perez Hilton?
Stupid? CHECK!
Queer? CHECK!
Blogger? CHECK!
Nothing to be offended by, queer is no more offensive that america in teh world circa 2009!

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Keep baby daddy close to home and that ghetto mentality goes away, don’t listen to rap and don’t let you son wear low jeans. NOW STFU! I have ZERO time for race bater like you. Take reponsibility and be a citizen not a hyphenated american.

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There is no average black man, because we are all american men and women. You make me sick. Deviser!

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I had my Jerry tattoo photographed by Skin and Ink Magazine today, but they said the issue won’t come out for about 6 months. I didn’t realize that their lead time is so long.

Hope everyone is making money in the market–If not, grow a set of cojones and get some money in there! Now is the time!! We may not see another real estate/stock market opportunity like this again in our lifetimes, so get moving everyone!

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why? I’m queer and I have no problem with the word. Read and learn. In addition to off the wall comments, probably from everyone who posts regularly including myself, you will see comments with depth and interest.

Who else heard the recent GA graduation rates today? They are happy that GA graduation rates improved 11 points from last year. Still, only 43% of students graduate on time. Clearly, public education is failing.

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When did Queer become a hate word?
Didn’t we all watch queer eye for teh straight guy? Jeez, some people are touchy. If you think that’s hate, you are silly!
What you should be outraged about is what that stupid queer Perez Hilton did to that sweet young thing from California. That is hatred! why? U are an official member of the dumbassi tribe!

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why? Gay means happy and the Rainbow is a symbol of hope for everyone, not just homosexuals. So I refuse to use the PC term “gay” to mean queer! See! How easy is that to understand {Dumbass!}

Gale? I sometimes have depth? Interest? You flatter me! Thanks for sticking up for me! Who is why? AW? They use EXPATs moniker for me, but I am sure she would just slap me in person? Who thinks AW? ME!

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whatever you do … for the love of all that is holy … DON’T get an ARM!!!

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Gandalf, just the truth. Snipers either have their own agenda or they are just reacting to one post. The post today about how worthless the topics are is sadly true much of the time. Even so, the posted topic does start conversation. Somettimes we even stay with the topic through Friday afternoon.

USinUK, thanks for thinking about me. Actually, I currently have an ARM. Except for a 1% hike last year, it is fine, currently at 5.1%. I am looking for a fixed 30 though. The problem ARMs were those with no money down on an over-priced house that is now worth less that it cost, and which allowed the lendor to hike up the rate more than 1% a year or that included balloon payments. Honestly, people really should read what they sign. The other thing people need to remember is the property taxes fueling their escrow payments. Dispite property values going down all over, counties are raising property taxes. There is a bad habit realtors have of promoting the mortgage monthly paymen without including the escrow.

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Who thinks charging the CIA folks who authorized waterboarding with a crime is wrong? Who thinks waterboarding was in any way a bad policy? If so why?

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Gale –

re: your ARM – just remember that the Fed rate is 0-0.25 right now – while it’s going to stay that low through for most if not all of the remainder of the year, it will go back up — and Bernanke will probably raise rates differently than Greenspan did (25 bps every meeting for a year) – if you can refi before the end of the year to lock in the lower rate, do.

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I think you are probably right about the rates, USinUK. I have been keeping a close watch.

Gandalf, apparently the US government thought waterboarding was a crime and punished the practice as a war crime after WWII.

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“Who thinks charging the CIA folks who authorized waterboarding with a crime is wrong?”

We all know that any type of “truth commission” the Dems conjure up will be all for show, Gandalf. Whether one agrees with the actions of the CIA or not, they operated within the framework of the law.

Frankly, I think Obama is confused and still thinks that he’s campaigning, based on his constant references to Bush. He’s trying to score political points both here and abroad by painting himself as the “anti-Bush”. And while that may play well around the world, especially to all of the dictators like Chavez, I predict that the American people will tire of it pretty soon.

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Gandalf–I’m with you re: the gay marriage question for Miss California. Way out of line.

At any rate, I thought Miss AZ should have won. Hot, hot, hot! Love those latinas!

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B-man …

“We all know that any type of “truth commission” the Dems conjure up will be all for show, Gandalf. Whether one agrees with the actions of the CIA or not, they operated within the framework of the law.”

I don’t know about “all for show” – but I would prefer to have an independent group investigate – a group that could pass the sniff test for partisanship. as for operating within the framework of the law – ah, no. 183 waterboardings in 30 days is nowhere NEAR the framework of the law – neither is preventing someone from sleeping for 11 days.

“I may be showing my chauvanism, but I think that more is less for women when it comes to tattoos”

I (and the Mister) agree with you … I wouldn’t get more tatts, but I can’t help but think about designs I’d like to get … I saw one Miami Ink episode in the first season where a young woman got cherry blossoms blowing in the breeze across her shoulders – some blossoms were intact, some were just petals … I absolutely coveted that tatt!!!

got them done in a small place in VA — a friend of mine had gotten his family crest done there and really liked the guy who did it, so that’s why I went – the guy did a great job and had a really easy touch. although, on my phoenix, he wanted to go completely nutty with flames and loads of stuff – I’m a streamlined, less is more gal …

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“I am looking for a fixed 30 though.”

I strongly recommend a fixed 20 year loan instead, Gale–15 years if you can possibly afford the payment. WIth a 30 year mortgage, hardly any of the principal is paid down the first ten years, so you end up paying a fortune in interest. With a 15 year loan, that principal starts going down right away.

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Bruno found her! That dog CAN hunt!

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“I strongly recommend a fixed 20 year loan instead, Gale–15 years if you can possibly afford the payment.”

I second that emotion.

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TOJ, the Democrats R failin’? I thought they were trying to seduce the masses and bring about “CHANGE” to National Socialism? good to hear they are failin’!

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“The Securities and Exchange Commission and the Justice Department have been questioning executives about accounting practices, according to company filings.”

Personally, I think that investigating the wrongdoing and punishing the appropriate people ala Enron is all we need to do to solve the “credit crisis”. In other words, stay within the system we have. I still can’t agree with any type of government takeover of the banking industry because it concentrates too much power in the hands of a few individuals–individuals who are appointed, and not elected.

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Scalia

–Get out in the trenches man, go to the black neighborhoods. See what it actually is like.–

I live in East Atlanta. I have a Black business partner. Don’t preach about knowing what others know. It just make you look even more foolish than you usually are.

The question is whether school vouchers in Washington DC, that have been allowing some very poor Black kids to go to some really good schools, The democrats have stopped that from happening. This is the same party that ran George Wallace for president, but strangely enough, you can’t make the connection. typical.

One more year before we get our country back. And the efforts to prosecute Republicans for waterboarding are being noted. Hiow many Democrats will end up in prison when the Republicans take over? Be careful what you wish for.

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TOJ – Your idea that it is simply the system failing the kids is totally unrealistic. While there are certainly issue that need to be addressed, there is no way that you could simply take those same kids, give them vouchers, put them in a private school and expect to have different results.

The vast, vast majority of “uneducated thugs” coming out of the public school system wouldn’t last a week at any school that wasn’t forced to take them. It has very little to do with what the schools are doing on a daily basis, and everything to do with parental involvement. Also, it isn’t a racial thing. There are plenty of white kids in good schools who don’t have parents who care (I’m looking at some right now taking a test), and they have the same issues as the black kids that have parents that don’t care.

There are cultural/societal issues that need to be fixed before we will see a marked improvement in school performance. So many people are caught up in getting the latest “things” for their kids, and being their child’s best friend, that they let their kids run the show. It isn’t surprising then when their children aren’t respectful and refuse to work. No school voucher is going to fix that, and will only serve to widen the gap between the those who care about education, and those whose parents don’t.

I know you want to make it a Republican/Democrat issue, but the reality is that schools have had issues for years, through Republican and Democratic administrations. There is no quick fix, but turning the schools into a profit center for some company isn’t, in my opinion, in the best interest of students as a whole. No doubt some will benefit, but there will be huge numbers that won’t, and will likely be even more hard pressed to be successful and overcome the societal/cultural obstacles they already have to deal with.

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“There are cultural/societal issues that need to be fixed before we will see a marked improvement in school performance.”

GOB–I agree strongly with you that the problems a lot of kids have run deeper than being stuck in a crappy school system, such that switching to a private school won’t benefit all. However, an opt-out system will at least save SOME of the kids.

Ultimately, if a child WANTS to learn, they can do so on their own, which is what I did. Despite graduating from one of the worst school systems in NJ, I was a National Merit Scholar.

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(1) Buy 700 shares of GE at $11 per share on Tuesday

(2) Sell 700 shares of GE at $12.50 per share on Wednesday.

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I think we need a test for voting in future elections.
Like who is the current President? Who is the current Vice President? Who is President of the Senate?
Who is your congressperson?
How many states are in these United States of America?
Are you a citizen of these United States of America?
Is the United States of America a Democracy or a Republic?
How may Senators are from each state?
What freedom is ensured by the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution?
Does the 1st Amendment to the Constitution ensure freedom of religion or freedom from religion?
etc.
This would weed out the truly ignorant that shouldn’t be voting in the first place! What do you think?

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Mara–Are you ABSOLUTELY sure that you can’t pull $3000 out of savings and put into the stock market??? It’s almost a no-lose proposition right now. I hate that you and your hubby have had to cut back so much. After all, friends don’t let friends smoke schwag.

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“Mara, though I disagree, your response is well thought out and presented! Thank you!”

who are you and what have you done with GtG???!!!

“This would weed out the truly ignorant that shouldn’t be voting in the first place! What do you think?”

my first job out of university was working with the state house of reps — I got waaaayyyy closer to John Q. Public than I ever really wanted to and saw firsthand just how ignorant most people are when it comes to gummint. most people wanted to call and lodge a complaint — but they usually didn’t know if they wanted to contact their state rep or their congressman because most people didn’t know the difference.

while I’m right there with you on the sentiment, history has proven that “testing” to be allowed to vote has been abused in the past.

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Brand new name here. The board isn’t taking any posts under my old one today.

Voter ignorance IS a problem, but more than lacking understanding of how the federal government is organized, MOST voters have no idea who represents them locally or at the state level. National events garner the most attention, but local and state authorities direcntly affect our lives and communities. Ask anyone who they picked for President, and they’ll answer quickly. Ask the same who their congressmen and state house and senate reps are or what they like about them, and they’ll stammer and tell you it’s slipped their minds. Then they’ll say they voted for the R or the D, (if they have any such loyalties), but 30-something percent don’t even bother scrolling down the ballot for the other races, let alone turning out in non-presidential years. Those who do bother with the straight ticket are only slightly more likely to know anything about the representatives they voted for, but the apathy is appalling.

IMO, you have no right to tell citizens they “shouln’t vote,” but you have every right to demand they pay attention first. Raise your hand if you’ve ever written to your state house or state senate rep. (**ME!!**)

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GOB

–here is no way that you could simply take those same kids, give them vouchers, put them in a private school and expect to have different results.–

Are you saying that a good school doesn’t make a difference? That is nonsense. The DC school system had set up a scholarship program where the best and the brightest from the DC area had a chance to get vouchers that would allow them a chance at a better education in another school. One of the schools was the school that Obama’s kids attend. If it doesn’t make any difference, why are Obama’s kids attending that school instead of public schools?

–There are plenty of white kids in good schools who don’t have parents who care (I’m looking at some right now taking a test), and they have the same issues as the black kids that have parents that don’t care.–

My parents really cared, but they just didn’t have any money. I am aware that there are many White kids that are also poor. I was one of them, but I lucked into attending one of the top 50 high schools in the country. The difference that it made in my life is immeasurable. But my cousins who attended the county schools were years behind me and they had horrible problems in college because they were not prepared. It does make a huge difference.

–There are cultural/societal issues that need to be fixed before we will see a marked improvement in school performance.–

I don’t care. Fix the problems by experimenting on rich kids. Stop sacrificing the futures of the most deprived while bureaucrats are getting more and more powerful. Liberals are nuts. They scream that the CEO of GM should be fired by the government by folding to the demands of the unions and building crap cars, but they allow the incompetent fools that run our public schools to fail year after year after year.

If the Democratic Party was really interested in improving the lives of people, they would figure out some way to educate these poor kids instead of figuring out ways to deprive them of an education.

–I know you want to make it a Republican/Democrat issue,–

The Republicans put a working scholarship program in place. The democrats took it away. What part of that is not about Republicans and democrats?

if your only defense is to defend an already failed public school system, save the key strokes. I don’t give a damn about the school system. I care about the kids. FIX IT TODAY or figure out a way that the kids who do care can get a good education. That’s what the Republicans did and it worked great.

Now, instead of talking about world side societal problems,. please explain to me why the Congress is justified in depriving the kids in the city of Washington DC who earned those scholarships, of obtaining a good education. Please explain your justification for supporting a government that would deny good students, regardless of race, the opportunity to get a good education.

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Gandalf – Mara, though I disagree, your response is well thought out and presented! Thank you!

if only I could do a blushing emoticon…:-)

Bruno, I wish we ciuld, but right now we’re paying our bills and that’s about it

O’Malley – it is indeed pretty sad out there in Voterland. Saw an advertisement last night where Jay Leno was doing a “man on the street” quiz for his new show. He asked the well-dressed woman he was interviewing if she knew who lived at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. She admitted that she did not. He then asked her if she knew who lived in a pineapple under the sea…that one she knew.

Sad, very sad.

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I live in East Atlanta. I have a Black business partner. Don’t preach about knowing what others know. It just make you look even more foolish than you usually are.

This is the same thing that white people say when they make stupid comments about black people. “I have a black friend, so it is okay.” And didn’t you say a year or two ago when I called you out on this, you said that you didn’t know that many black people. Now, all of a sudden, you have a black business partner and live in East Atlanta.

I don’t believe that.

And to answer the question, I do think that vouchers would work. I believe that competition drives results.

But the other crap you were talking about, you can save it. There are so many white people that are poor, and you single out the black people.

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Gandalf, the White!, yeah, I’d love to see you make me shut up, moron! Looks like you’re one of the idiots who needs to get a job and a life.

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TOJ – You may be correct that the DC decision is a bad one. I haven’t had time to do much research today, so I can’t speak to the specifics. Vouchers, in general, however have HUGE issues, and will create a whole different set of problems.

In your original comment, you talked about “uneducated thugs” being sent out into the world from the public school system. My response, was that those kids, the “uneducated thugs” who are disruptive in school right now, would not be anymore successful in a private school. They wouldn’t make it a week before being kicked out.

If you’d read what I wrote, you would see that I said there would no doubt be students that would benefit from vouchers. There are, however, a huge number that wouldn’t, and in fact would be left in a much worse situation that before. Your reference to the “best and the brightest of DC” is interesting because guess what, the “best and brightest” can still get scholarships. Private schools offer them to students that they feel will improve their school.

And what in your opinion is the reason that the public schools are failing so much, and that private schools are the answer? The reality is that because public schools MUST take any student that lives in their district, they have more issues. Private schools, under a voucher program, will still pick and choose who they want, so those poor kids whose parents dont care will simply fall even further behind as all of the good teachers leave for the new and expanding private schools.

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It’s heartwarming to see someone who truly cares so deeply and passionately about other people’s children.

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Democrap, the Dufus Blow me, Ya snapperhead! Lick a big pair of donkey balls while you are at it! STFU times two! Why are you here? Go away.

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Democrap, meet me at the flag pole at 3! I will trounce you!

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Bruno on the states issue, what was his answer? 57? Guess how many islamic states there are? thing that make you go WTF? Or as AW would say, just saying…

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1. To thrash; beat.
2. To defeat decisively.

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Scalia

It is racist because you are attacking me for pointing out that it is Black kids that are being effected. You do know that you don’t HAVE to be Black in order to point out a problem that effects Black people, don’t you?

–And I call bullsh!t on you. I am more of a conservative, moderate Republican than a liberal.–

If you are, you sure don’t act like it here. I have a lot of problems with Republicans, but I rarely bring them up here. You seem to claim to understand the thinking and motivation of everyone here. SO according to you, I couldn’t have lived in East Atlanta because I pointed out that Black kids were being effected by a withdrawal of scholarship in the Washington DC school system. Your logic, or lack there-of is baffling. I would ask you to explain, but I would be afraid that you would try.

–Every comment that you have made on this blog has been demeaning to both liberals and black people. –

You are a liar. Saying that Black kids who attend a school system that has a huge Black majority need a chance at a good education may seem like a demeaning statement to someone like you. Fortunately, you often make such ridicules claims. If wanting a better life for a group of people is demeaning to you, then you are a great liberal. Preaching and judging other people. You could only be an evangelical or a liberal, and judging from what you write, you HAVE to be a liberal.

–The day you say that the Republicans do something bad and stop being so narrow-minded is the day that people will actually listen to you.–

LOL!! That would be the same day that USinUK, you, Mara and AW say that the Democrats have done something wrong.

–I can admit that the liberals are messings things up, and I can admit that Republicans have done some good things and have done some bad things.–

You sure can. So when will we see that? All I ever see is what I am seeing today. Hysterics and personal attacks and claims of knowing other people’s thoughts and motivation, i.e. bullsh!t.

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Bruno, while I respect and often admire the artistry and expression of ink, I don’t wish to have it injected into my own flesh. I was tempted around a milestone birthday, but withstood the temptation and moved past it. I do, at times, peek curiously at how others express themselves, and like you, find their choices interesting.

Re your Obama grudge: First, I don’t think ANYONE has “complete faith that a government-run system will ge generous, honest, fair, yadda yadda.” Hope and faith are different things, and “government-run” is too vague to rationally discuss. Further, I haven’t heard any specific proposals for a “government run” health system per se, but only generalizations for moving toward a system to which we all have access, and which doesn’t rape us for profit the way this one does now. Those who can pay, pay more, because too many can’t. It isn’t fair on either end of the spectrum, and as always, the middle class gets squeezed to death in the middle. Your own experience with health care is noted, and your input, IMO, is valuable — as long as you can keep in constructive and meaningful. Addressing a complex issue with over-simplification is ineffective, no matter who’s in charge. Frankly, I think I speak for most Americans when we say we’re sick of the fighting and just want some *bleep bleep* solutions for a change.

I don’t recall seeing this President “denigrate our country” while on foreign soil. If you’re referencing the speech in Strasbourg a couple of weeks ago, then you only heard the SOUNDBITE that the media righties were selling with their El Grande cup of Outrage. If you read the FULL QUOTE, he expresses a balanced (fair and …?) commentary on the prejudices and animosities that have been brewing in recent years between the US and our European allies. It was a plea to set this pettiness aside and work together to solve problems, and I’m okay with that.

“In America, there is a failure to appreciate Europe’s leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive. But in Europe, there is an anti-Americanism that is at once casual, but can also be insidious. Instead of recognizing the good that America so often does in the world, there have been times where Europeans choose to blame America for much of what is bad. On both sides of the Atlantic, these attitudes have become all too common. They are not wise. They do not represent the truth. They threaten to widen the divide across the Atlantic and leave us both more isolated. They fail to acknowledge the fundamental truth that America cannot confront the challenges of this century alone, but that Europe cannot confront them without America.”

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O’Malley, it doesn’t matter, unless you march in lock step and praise this country with religious fervor then your not a patriot and your emblodening our enemies to attack. To crticise America at all means your a terrorist enabler and a yellow dog something or other. Not to mention that if you don’t favor nuking Iran into a greasy smear on the face of the planet then your a wimp and an appeaser. So since your defending Obama’s mean-spirited attack on America you should just move to Europe you Frenchy Socialist!!! Did I miss anything there?

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TOJ (and GtG) –

“But the real question is: are you really saying that the main reason why Obama is not sending his kids to one of the worst and violent school systems in the country is because his children require greater security than normal kids?”

I can’t believe that I actually ahve to spell this out for you, but YES, that’s exactly what I’m saying (and GtG, it’s a much different world today than it was in 1976 when Amy was in school). This doesn’t have to do with school shootings or knifings or even strip searches for ibuprofen. This has to do with a smaller school body to monitor from a greater threat than ANY other school child would have to face (unless you think that national/international kidnappers, terrorists, and all-around wackjobs stalk the average 7 year old the way they do Sasha and Malia)

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EXPAT: I don’t buy it, the Secret Service are more than capable of protect the Obama offsprings. It’s not about security, it’s about elitism. His ugly wife with her Hate Speech about America are the main reason they needed a security detail. She has a big mouth.

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JustaJew: Glad to see your views are changin’! Remember what Ramadangadigndong wants to do to you, your children and the Jewish homeland. Wipe it off the face of the planet. I don’t see how that is good for anyone, except maybe the Palistinians, who have flourished.

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JustAJew

“You are” = you’re, not your.

i’m horrible at typos but because of the number of times you did that, apparently, it’s not a typo.

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Gale

It can be dangerous. But consider how dangerous it is when a kid is smart and/or gifted. They have no one to protect them from the same thugs that threaten and intimidate the adult teachers or advisers. This is why i think that vouchers or as RF was saying, school choice is so important. Let the thugs have the crappy schools. They own them anyway. Take out the english and math and teach them welding and engine repair. Let the Unions control those schools.

Beck had an interview with a family from DC. The mother seemed like a very sweet person and she was so desperately trying to speak correct English. She just honestly didn’t know what to say. She was a product of the DC school system. Her daughter had been going to a private school through the voucher program. When she was asked a question, she was articulate and intelligent, someone who could have a chance at a good job. She just had basic communication skills that her mother lacked. THAT’S what the democrats are taking away from those kids, just so the people who run the failing DC system can get the money alloted for educating thiose kids.

Everyone here has done nothing but change the subject and refuised to even addresss this situation. In fact, i have been repeatedly attacked, just for bringing it up.

This is why I think that democrats are dangerous. They complain about pouring water over a terrorist, but turn around and pull good, gifted kids out of a great school system just to satisfy the wants of the NEA teachers Union. But what makes them really dangerous is the blind loyalty of Yellow Dog Democrats that refuse to discuss issues and attack others who bring these issues up.

I just hope they don’t completely screw everything up before next year’s election.

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TOJ –

“You insisted that it was OK that the CEO of GM was fired, but I don’t hear anything from you about firing leaders of this horrible school system. Why is that?”

yet again, you know nothing about which you speak.

DC Mayor Fenty won the right to hire/fire the school board and superintendent back in 2007 … then promptly dismissed the ENTIRE former school board and the then-superintendent, hiring Deborah (I think) Gist. Last month, Gist “was resigned” …

… the new superintendent of DC schools was hired at the beginning of this month, Kerri Briggs, a Bushie who helped draft NCLB –

http://www.ed.gov/news/staff/bios/briggs.html

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credit where credit’s due: Shepard Smith, Fox News.

“We are America! I don’t give a rat’s ass if it helps! We are America! We do not fvcking torture!” … “This government is of, by, and for the people — that means it’s mine. That means — I’m not saying what is torture, and what is not torture, but I’m saying, whatever it is, you don’t do it for me! I want off the train when the government starts — I want off, next stop, now!”

And just for TOJ, Me condemning a Democrat for doing bad things – Jane Harman (D-CA).

“Rep. Jane Harman , a California Democrat long involved in intelligence issues, was overheard on a 2005 National Security Agency wiretap telling a suspected Israeli agent that she would lobby the Justice Department to reduce espionage-related charges against two former officials of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).”

“In return, the Israeli agent pledged to help lobby for Harman to become chairwoman of the House Intelligence Committee.”

Shame on her. SHAME!

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We need to pad some comments here so I don’t need to look at Gandalf’s post to pull someone’s chain.

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Speaking of torture, I would love to torture that person who so cowardly fakes post of me! I would have fun getting medieval!
Ahh, life’s simply pleasures…

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Um one might want to do a check between little Amy and little Chelsea–bring it up to date when you question merits of public vs private schools. Seems little Amy had a rough time fitting in to an urban school including restrictions on not being able to attend recess & blah blah blah,so not much later Amy Carter attended the Holton-Arms School in Bethesda, Maryland. Not exactly public school, is it? She never returned to public schools for education.

TOJ said: Poor kids go to the worst schools. It sucks.
Yeah? One of the poorest states in the USA is Maine and yet despite cutbacks in school budgets it repeatedly has better test scores, better classrooms, stronger parent involvement, stronger community involvement than GA. Despite being poor its classroom the menace is not guns & weapons, teen date rape or saggy britches–it is teen dances being monitored for salacious dancing. Or the baseball team drinking at a party at the coaches house. The whole state has probably the budget of Butts county school system (used in appropriate fashion to see if editors will remove a known GA county) which is not much.

Me? I think there is pandering to kids going on, lax, lazy commitment by the very personnel who are supposed to be helping.

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Gale you know I didn’t post that!

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Lyarzel, can I get an AMEN! Well said! Schools don’t educate children, Parents do!

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So, now that that’s over with, who thinks that the Somoli pirate is a victim?
Who thinks we should have gutted him at sea and thrown him to the sharks?
Anyone care to guess which camp I fall into?

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I would not treat a pirate as an ordinary criminal if it was my ship. The captain is the law on a ship at sea in international waters, IMO.

We are on the same L O L A vibe, Gandalf.

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“USinUK, I like the other Lola. L O L A, Lo-La.”

and if it was sung by a Barry, it would have been the BSOD (Barry Song of the Day) … However, you can’t even get an anagram of Barry out of Ray Davies

… tastes just like cherry coooooooooola … c-o-l-a, cooooola

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Deomcrap? Are you really AW?

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The Easter Crash Killer is in jail with out bond! Thank you Jesus!

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L,

I am a lot of things, but the poster of that deviant post I am not.

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Gandalf, the White!, you’re a sick human being. SICK!

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Gandalf, the White!, for a liberal you sure are stupid. Most libs at least have half a brain. Your gay dads must really have done a number on you.

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Lyrazel: What did the pirate captain save his drowining first mate?
C P ARRRRRRRRR

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WTW family: I love you guys!

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Enter your comments here

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Gandalf, the White!, what is with your hatred? I mean, this is supposed to be a civil blog yet here you are ranting and name calling. Remember, if was YOU who told me to STFU when I asked a question.

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Democrap Party said: A lot of people on this blog need to get a life. The two ladies writing these “articles” need to get a real job. All they do is menstruate all over the AJC with meaningless rhetoric when REAL issues should be discussed. Too bad the AJC is tanking. Awe so sad.

I adore people who tell me I need to get a life then open their mouths and spew across their keyboard. Now tell me DP what does menstruation have to do with real jobs or was that a sexist comment degrading women? I am talking at you! Two capable women are employed to write small unremarkable commentary about quasi-relevant topics to allow debate–that is what this is. It is doubtful these women are more than freelance, probable they are well educated, self-sufficient–meaning they probably have earned more cash on their said articles than you have commenting. So who spews meaningless rhetoric?
Real issues?
Like the ones you have been giving us to comment on?
You come prancing in as if your opinion is to be listened to then berate the most inane commentator we have spewing less than drivel without maintaining any comprehension of anatomy.

Ok, what real issues do you wish to discuss?

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DP! I smell BURN! Way to go Lyrazel!
I am a tool! A tool of goodness and Liberty! Hatred toward queers? Nothing could be further from the truth. I love them! NOW PLEASE STFU and go away. You really have nothing to say, and your rude.

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Too late to apologize DP! You loser! Go away! STFU!

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you’re rude, sorry for the SP!

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Yes Maam….

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ROTFL You are wasting this boards time, and you are extremely ineffective. Now let’s move on to real issues!

Ahmadinejad (Rangadangadingdong) says that Barry should have gone to the UN Racism Conference, to a crowd of people shouting “Death to America” and “Death to Isreal”. Any one else see anything wrong with this picture?

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Lyrazel, I post “MOSTLY” never-possible solutions…thank you very much!

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Ooooo Stop the Press!

PORTLAND — The City of Portland’s Public Works snowplow rodeo takes place from 8 to 11 a.m. today at the city’s public works facility on District Road. Snowplows and their drivers will compete in timed races, obstacle courses with mailboxes, parked cars and other things.

The winners will get to move on to the next round – the Cumberland County Snow Plow Rodeo scheduled for May 21 at the Cape Elizabeth Public Works facility.

Betcha never knew there was a second round, did ya. Just wait till the Championship finals!!!!

Ok, so they have the rodeo when there is no snow on the ground. Does anyone see the logic?

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Well they are busy snowplowing when snow IS on the ground. I am sure it’s a neo-conservatvie ploy to get them to keep thier skills honed to a razor edge. Wiat a minute, no conservatives live in Portland….now I am confused!

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oooh! Gnome, Gandalf! Most excellent! Gnomes are reputed to be cunningly clever rascals. Rude, but clever. Fantastic, Lyrazel. You have pegged Gandalf perfectly, IMO. Love the 2:15 comment. Perfect. The other person, however, is a troll. (You have me completely in the dark with the red socks comment.)

Ahmadinejad was exhibiting his skill in the win friends and influence people contest at that foorum.

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Gale, ask any australian about wally & red socks….

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They say they invented moonpies up here. I say that’s crap! O we had a wild turkey in our yard last week. Big fellow…I never realized how big wild turkeys actually are–maybe I ought to put out another bird feeder…in GA we just got chickadees…

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Gale we can all wear white shoes in honor of the flakes.
There was snow up in the mts. recently but this is a big-city event.

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Gale–a wally is kind of dufus and red socks means about the same.
I had never seen a wild turkey before. BIG! I thought it was an escapee from the turkey ranch–but there are no turkey growers in the neighborhood. There are lots of acorns out back and many acres of wood.

Are you sure you saw a real turkey and not some Cobb Co. sasquatch in a turkey suit pretending to be a turkey?

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Archie, the only quibble I have with your comment is related to the programmer analogy. At least most people, even politicians have been in public schools. Granted some of the multi-generationan political families might not have attended public school ever. But the have been inside a school system. Like I said, it is a quibble. I am a computer person and your example made me twitch. Except for that, I agree completely. Vouchers will not correct the problem, they will just move the problem.

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okay … does someone want to explain to me why my pirate joke is now pulled and “awaiting moderation”???

geez-o-pete, AJC – would you please set out some rules as to what triggers your idiotic screening so that we could at least be able to carry on a conversation without having our comments pulled …

especially when there’s nothing illegal, immoral or fattening in the content???

wankers.

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