Should we do more to encourage women to keep Down syndrome babies?
When I was growing up, seeing people with Down syndrome was common, and as a Special Olympics volunteer I was touched by how much they loved life. But today, at least 90 percent of women expecting a Down syndrome baby get an abortion, according to journals such as the American Journal of Medical Genetics. As in-utero screening has advanced, terminating Down syndrome pregnancies has become almost expected.
But should it be? Or are we as families and a society losing something important if we become a nation of more and more perfect people, preventing those with even the most livable disabilities from being born? As we get further away from recognizing that everyone is precious no matter their handicaps, we become less compassionate and accommodating toward those who are imperfect. And that makes it harder and harder parents to visualize how they could possibly navigate life with a Down syndrome child.
Forty years ago, that was easy to visualize. And those parents discovered that the loving, happy nature of most Down syndrome children was not a burden but a joy – to the family and society. Today, we need to get back to encouraging and supporting more women in keeping those babies – with everything from tax breaks to easier access to special services. Women should never be made to feel like they do today: that they really have no other choice but to terminate the pregnancy, simply because they can’t fathom how to move forward.
When Diana Lawler, a mom I know, discovered one child would be a Down syndrome son, she and her husband also adopted a Down syndrome daughter. She believes we should better encourage Down syndrome parents, saying “These kids have added so much to our family. My husband says God makes angels out of that extra chromosome. My other children get frustrated with them, sure. But I feel like in their lives this will be a plus; my son and daughter will never perform like other people, but my other kids love them unconditionally. It makes me sad that we are removing this element from our society. Down syndrome is an easy disability, comparatively, and the kids are so loving. They will teach you so much more than a ‘normal’ child.”
Should we do more to encourage women to keep Down syndrome babies?
My friend Susan brought it up during a coffee break at the center where we trained developmentally disabled adults. She said to me, “It would make sense for us to wind up with Down syndrome children someday. We’d know what to do.”
I was startled, but thought: Susan might be right, given what we did for a living. Of course, life doesn’t work that way, and other mothers have those babies, those challenges.
I understand Shaunti’s fervent anti-abortion stance, yet her odd combo platter of tax breaks and increased special programs wouldn’t affect the decision-making of any distraught, pregnant woman. And if you agree with her that raising a Down syndrome (DS) child to adulthood was easier to “visualize” 40 years ago, I’d like to buy you a time machine.
Throughout my 20s, I worked with developmentally disabled adults. Many had been shuttered away their whole childhoods or been warehoused alongside mentally ill patients, still burdened with behaviors that were learned from those peers. When I began this work in 1983, the median age of death among DS people was 25 years old. Before 1975, only one of every five children with a significant disability was even educated in our school system.
The truth is, the best argument for raising a Down syndrome child is all around us, right now. How far we’ve come, placing disabled kids in most mainstream educational environments, from Brownie troops to your average high school. It’s now standard issue to see a DS adult helping out at your local grocery or hospital. And while it is true that in-utero screening has increased terminations, Down syndrome is hardly being eradicated. The most recent CDC study points out that the number of DS babies born in the U.S. actually rose from 1,676 in 1996 to 2,085 in 2006, and other studies put the annual birthrate at much higher numbers.
So why are many women terminating these pregnancies? Perhaps it’s because life hands us so many unexpected difficulties, few want to take on the expected ones. Whatever the reason, I am only sure of this: deciding to keep or terminate a pregnancy is often a difficult choice. It is a choice that should be preserved.
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159 comments Add your comment
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
9:29 am
We should kill ‘em all! That what Barry wants! Abortion on demand until age 18!
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
9:29 am
Is that liberal enough? Did you know liberalism is a mental disorder?
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
9:30 am
Oh, did I say First!
American Mommy
April 3rd, 2009
9:43 am
Interesting that Mrs. Feldhahn champions greater tolerance for those who are less than perfect. Our prisons are bursting at the seams with citizens who are less than perfect, many of them developmentally disabled from birth due to fetal alcohol syndrome, mental illness, abusive parents, poverty, or being born into a place and family where there’s no ray of light to show them a better way. Down syndrome people are almost always sweet-natured, incapable of conceiving and committing serious crimes. But what of those born with different strikes against them? Where’s the tolerance? Where’s the effort to reach out and love the manic depressives and schizophrenics who are not quite so pleasant to be around? To save them from a heartless society? Is Mrs. Felhahn perfectly fine not thinking about those who are warehoused, at taxpayer’s expense, in prisons for most of their lives, never knowing the love, laughter, and tenderness of the Down Syndrome people she champions?
I’m all for punishing crime, but when our incarceration rate per capita is among the highest in the world, and people are sitting in prison for medicating themselves or growing some weed to pay the bills, it’s hard to swallow the “let’s love the less-than-perfect” argument that’s as specific and narrow as it could possibly get.
Gale
April 3rd, 2009
9:46 am
This is a very personal decision and I would not presume to encourage or discourage any woman in this decision. I disagree that we as a society should put special programs in place to specifically encourage women to not abort DS children. Simply doing so puts more pressure into an already difficult decision. If I remember correctly, this is a condition that is more common in the pregnancies of older women. We see more of this as more women put off the decision to get pregnant. This is a symptom of a high pressure society, and one in which some women are conflicted about whether and when to have children.
I think Shaunti’s position is mistakenly focussed on the parents. Is it hard to raise a DS child? Well sure it is. And yes, it has its rewards and challenges. I would prefer to focus on the disabled child with a potentially limited life span and a definitely limited life. It is highly unlikely the child will ever be president, on one hand. On the other, DS is much better understood today and DS adults can be found who are highly socialized and easy to be around. Well, golly, this is a happy child. My dog is happy. I would want a lot more than happy for my child.
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
10:09 am
all I know is this: I’ve had friends who, when pregnant opted not to have the screening because they knew they would not terminate the pregnancy, no matter what. I’ve had friends who, when pregnant opted to have the screening because they already had kids and knew they jsut weren’t financially/emotionally able to raise a DS child.
I think the gov’t should butt the he!! out and let these women/families make up their minds what’s best for them.
Mara
April 3rd, 2009
10:15 am
I don’t know as we should encourage women to birth DS babies, but I think we should DIScourage it either. Frankly, I don’t think it’s anyone’s business except the woman’s (and perhaps her husband) on whether she has an abortion or not…regardless of whether the fetus has Down’s or not.
But considering Shaunti’s rapturous description of how wonderful it is to have a DS child, you’d think that EVERYbody would want one. So. If DS children are so wonderful, and so much BETTER, and so much more FULFILLING than non-disabled children…why ARE all these women making the choice to abort? What isn’t being said?!
What Shaunti skips over, and what Andy doesn’t even mention in her rebuttal, is WHY someone would choose to abort a fetus with Down’s.
Shaunti, in her fervor to ennoble these precious bits o’ shining light, chooses not to mention the medical problems that often accompany the cognitive disability. From impaired motor skills, heart desease, hearing problems, and thyroid issues to the incidents of leukemia, epilepsy, and a greater chance of developing Alzheimer’s.
She doesn’t mention the difficulties inherent in raising a disabled child, in navigating their educational challenges, their physical development, and their emotional development. She pretends that a DS child is no more difficult, and just as likely to succeed in life, as a healthy child is.
And IMO, that’s just a little bit dishonest.
Mara
April 3rd, 2009
10:18 am
oooops. the first sentance should have read, “I don’t know as we should encourage women to birth DS babies, but I **DON’T** think we should DIScourage it either.”
sorry for the typo
Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth
April 3rd, 2009
10:19 am
Gale, thanks for the rational comments.
Obama-Bien will make the structures necessary for those with diminished capacity to live abundant lives. Our covenant morality for humanity through our Social Compact in our Constitution requires that [ Claus Ii].Rmember that abortions went down under Clinton-Gore and probably will do the same this time ,too.
Our lives are meaningful even if we live only a short while. We need no future state or God to ensure that. Life is its own validation and reward and purpose.
However, that bespeaks not of those too far gone as with anecephalics .
We pro-women’s rights [ Amendment 9 would suffice without the penumbraaa, I think.], and those pro-life then can agree on helping those who could otherwise not abort. This leaves out those pro-enforced pregnancies who care not for what happens after bith with government help; charity hadly touches the social problems.
And the Pope uses false facts in his contemnation of condoms! His and Mother Teresa’s reactionary attitude is responsible for so much harm with the spreading of AIDS and such.
We need rational attitudes and approaches in solving problems rather than ideological ones. Arthur Caplan, Paul Kurtz and Peter Stenger are secular voices for that rationality.
rationalist griggsy
JokesOn
April 3rd, 2009
10:29 am
I think the gov’t should butt the he!! out and let these women/families make up their minds what’s best for them.
Agreed. While I personally would not respect the decision to abort a DS child, I would still respect their right to that choice.
What I find absurd is Forty years ago, that was easy to visualize. And those parents discovered that the loving, happy nature of most Down syndrome children was not a burden but a joy
BS. My dad was a psychiatrist back then and told all sorts of horror stories regarding people with DS being in the basement of mental hospitals. He once had to write up a death certificate and the 22 DS male was last seen by a physician 5 years prior! He was beaten to death. These basements were dirt floors, btw, and also housed the criminally insane, as well as serving as a drunk tank for chronic drinkers and MANY black folk with minor mental illness. Oh the good old days!
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
10:39 am
for anyone who is interested (or doesn’t know a whole lot about DS), here’s some basic info on what it is, what causes it, life expectancy, health problems, etc:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/downssyndrome1.shtml
Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth
April 3rd, 2009
10:39 am
jokes on, thanks for the information. How people yearn for those halcyon days! Faith doth that to people!
Obama -Biden
naturalist griggsy, rationalist griggsy,skeptic griggsy,girggs1947,lord griggs, sceptique griggsy, esceptico griggsy world over
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
10:40 am
There is no Pro-Women Rights position, it is called Pro-Death or Pro-Murder. You are an educated {dumbass!] Our lives are meaningful even if we live only a short while? WTF are you smokin’? Must be good! Maybe Barry and his boys will legalize it for you! Not very meaningful to the poor FESTUS you want sucked away! You are dumber than a box of hammers, but I bet you spent 14 years in school!
Gale
April 3rd, 2009
10:43 am
“our lives are meaningful…” I am guessing here that you mean the lives of a DS person. I do not doubt it. I wish it was more evident to the rest of us. It would be helpful if someone with DS could write an autobiography, or even a fiction to help us understand. But, as you state next, -and I assume again that you mean a person with DS- there is no need for a future purpose/goal/expectation. Forgive me if I am misreading. This is the point I was making. Is it enough to be happy and involved in the now? I don’t think even the Dali Lhama would make that assertion. Maybe it is the higher purpose of the DS child to teach –in the cosmic or kharmic sense. If that, then even an abortion is a teaching aspect for the parents and families.
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
10:45 am
Hey Dumbassi Queen Morgan, who is Bien? Liberalism is a mental disorder and you’re one sick puppy! Right after you kill everyone with Down Syndrome, what’s next for you and your SS troopers? Alzheimer patients? Crippled folks won’t get treatement, cuz they are no longer productive?
What a slimey slope morons like you live on. Nazi scum!
Gale
April 3rd, 2009
10:48 am
Hey Gandalf, I was not able to post when this blog format started. I am putting in an end tag for italics, but it does not get turned off. I thought it was just a repeat of the tag. What am I missing? Please go geek for a moment for me.
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
10:48 am
MLG –
welcome to the board – don’t be afraid of GtG – he’s harmelss and always welcomes newbies this way.
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
10:50 am
Studies are showing more DS babies are born to elder parents (older)/should there be laws limiting one’s age for reproduction?
I dont know what it takes to raise a kid, less a kid with DS. I withdraw from further opinions if its best to abort.
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
10:55 am
Let’s see Gale… using tag no tag…
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
10:56 am
looks like it’s not html but XHTML so use [ and } caps no worky
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
10:59 am
Gale that should be: less than sign, lower case i, greater than sign and less than sign, forward slash, lower case i, greater than sign. Not sure how to rem out symbols here yet….
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
11:02 am
Expat: Does welcome mean something different across the pond?
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
11:04 am
What about babies without limbs–would the same rule apply? Isnt the ‘perfect child’ what every mother wants but may not get? Its not SHOPPING, is it?
If the mother is unfit and possibly jailed–should the government step in and force her to have an abortion if its obvious the government will have to care for this child (and mom) for life?
Should a woman with DS have children? Should mentally ill people have children? Is it fair to children?
Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth
April 3rd, 2009
11:04 am
Gandalf the Reactionary Idiot, you provide no evidence and no argument : go to back to school. You make such a non-sequitur and the fallacy of the slippery slope. Of course you cannot understand those two terms!
I have 16 years of education.
Gale, I concur. I mean for us with no super-significant health problems. Now quadriplegics have no such problems as Steven Hawking is a prime example, just significant ones.
Obama-Biden encourage equality of opportunity and entrepreneurship. Reactionaries would limit that with their pro-near anarchic view of the markets. We need regulated, free markets: regulation to ensure fair competition and fairness to consumers make for a decent free market- the ability of free people to make their own decisions.
Farvel.
It help to use spell check in proof -reading!
Gale
April 3rd, 2009
11:05 am
So italics I was missing the slash on the end tag.
Gale
April 3rd, 2009
11:05 am
Thank you very much, Gandalf.
JokesOn
April 3rd, 2009
11:08 am
Lyrazel,
A last bit of info on the previous board for you. Did not want to taint this topic…until it gets old.
The Other Jack
April 3rd, 2009
11:10 am
USinUK
the sun is coming out and the roads are drying out so I have to go and make a buck. Please read this. I know it is long, but stay with me. Look at what I am saying even though I’m sure a lot of people will be yelling from the sidelines.
In the meanwhile, check this out:
Flor inglesa. Esté amable al hombre afortunado que usted elegido.
Huh? Huh? Huh?
Simple. When I am shown that I did say many untrue and down right false statements about “placenta stem cells” and “cord cells” I will apologize. She said that i made the statements during her pregnancy so I can’t really see that I would have been discussing Obama’s funding of it when Bush was still president.
But the question I have for you is this: Why are you trying so hard? Why do insist on reaching so deep? It shows a little desperation to me. I don’t dislike you. I think that sometimes you can get very nasty and when you do, I tend to return the nastiness. But I don’t like that. I would rather talk to you about things that we agree on. Because discussing things that you disagree with always get really nasty, really fast. And with sh!t stirrers, wanting to “triangulate” with you, many innocent discussions turn into wars.
Look at the “exploitation” thing. I said that women and children were exploited by the porn industry to joke. He throws one of his normal fits, saying that there is no way any woman or child had ever been exploited by the porn industry. When you do consider that (as you say) bank tellers are exploited by the banks and construction workers are exploited by the contractors, it is obvious that he had no argument. But instantly, it was a huge discussion about the legal porn industry, where tapes were being sold, etc. etc. and everyone was twisting the discussion to make what the half wit had argued: fact. Bad things were said to everybody by everybody so because the village idiot could not agree that the porn industry exploited women and children, we have huge flaming wars.
Girl, when I appear on this forum, Joke and “Sunshine” the liar’s heads explode. If I am not posting to them, they will rifle through my posts to others to find some benign aspect of what I said to someone and start one of their usual vile and nasty attacks, and all of the sudden, you are in the middle of it. And as shown by the half wit last night, there is no bottom to the depths that they will sink. So it will never be civil. The same sickness that makes him go to flicker sites and scream at people just because he suspects them of being me is the same sickness we are dealing with here.
You and I have great discussions about a lot of things. I like that. I would rather do that than spend days and days screaming at each other because you insist on defending the village idiot. As long as I am here. “they” will be here and you and I will continue screaming at each other. I would rather that not be the case.
BTW You would love this new house. It was built in the 30s, but it was ultra modern with lower ceilings and lots of structures to break up the vertical walls on the outside, sort of a small time Frank Loyd Wright. All one level. I got it at auction. (Actually a real estate friend of mine did) You wouldn’t believe the deal. The dog and cat are already there. I’m going to try and move in this weekend.
JokesOn
April 3rd, 2009
11:15 am
Gale,
And, using the same open/close format, you can use “strong” for bold text.
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
11:21 am
We need regulated, free markets: regulation to ensure fair competition and fairness to consumers make for a decent free market- the ability of free people to make their own decisions.
Welcome MLGL–but you live in a dream to even believe true-free markets could happen. Markets are never and have never been free. We made international law not for morality but PROFIT!!!! and then every country picked it apart for their own profit and will continue to do until there is nothing left to sell.
Just like there is no way one can certify one eats organic food there is no way to certify a product complies with fair trade. Fairness is something people pretend they want to show–but when money is in the equation–fairness goes out the window Look at little Timmy’s lemonade stand. He will undercut the cost of lemonade until he beats out all the other lemonade stands on the block and when he is the last lemonade stand he will raise his prices. Same as it ever was. Please dont pretend you believe Obama and Biden are going to change world economies by being fair…you sound far too smart. Politicians are puppets.
So how DOES one get italics?
The Other Jack
April 3rd, 2009
11:22 am
Mara
–But considering Shaunti’s rapturous description of how wonderful it is to have a DS child, you’d think that EVERYbody would want one. So. If DS children are so wonderful, and so much BETTER, and so much more FULFILLING than non-disabled children…why ARE all these women making the choice to abort? What isn’t being said?!–
I don’t think that anyone is saying that it is all great with a DS child. They are very sweet children, but they will be children for the rest of their lives. That means that when a person is my age or older, they will be caring for a child. That would be rough.
Usted tiene un fin de semana bueno, la señora bonita.
The Other Jack
April 3rd, 2009
11:24 am
Gale
My mother had a thin purple belt instead of a switch. She swears she never had to use it. LOL!! She used it.
Gale
April 3rd, 2009
11:26 am
Lyrazel, italics. Check Gandalf’s 10:59
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
11:27 am
Considering how we take really dont take care of children in this country should having children be illegal?
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
11:28 am
{gosh}
Gale
April 3rd, 2009
11:28 am
Sorry, TOJ, I get very tired of the bickering and when I feel compelled to say something, I feel like my grandmother scolding me and my cousins.
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
11:28 am
[gosh]
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
11:29 am
[gosh am I dumb? or just challenged]
Gale
April 3rd, 2009
11:30 am
We could drift all the way into a discussion of eugenics. But I don’t think any of us really want to go there. There are obvious benefits to society, and just as obvious horrid pitfalls for society.
JokesOn
April 3rd, 2009
11:33 am
{i}your post here(/i) But replace the (), in both cases, with “less than” and “greater than” symbols
JokesOn
April 3rd, 2009
11:36 am
Lyrazel,
Or go here: http://www.tizag.com/htmlT/htmlitalic.php
JokesOn
April 3rd, 2009
11:40 am
Off to 8-ball tournament.
Take care peeps.
Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth
April 3rd, 2009
11:43 am
Lyrazel, yes, we liberals also aim to help big – and small business make profits but in a fair manner that won’t harm others. Remember not to disown the possible for the perfect. As with science and morality, through trial and error, we do learn how to better the market. Pres. Carter and Sen. Edward Morehouse Kennedy saw that we had over-regulated the market, agreeing with Pres. Ford to deregulate. However, we went to far as the present collapse of the financial system illustrates.
Where was Sen. Kennedy [ Remember his where was George?] He is with Republicans on major legislation! His good friend Sen. Orrin Hatch will aid him to achieve major health reform. Kennedy was there and he will be there to reactionaries dismay. Chappaquidick is irrelevant as the law found him not indictable, folks!
Unlike others I proclaim my liberalism, using the term progressive only when I find Republicans in agreement on my issues to apply to us both. Such was the case with Sen. LaFollette, Pres. Theodore Roosevelt and some others.
God will and blessings1
Ate logo.
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
11:44 am
More perfectly normal children starve to death than have DS so why does Shauni not mention them as being candidates for abortions? Her feel good arguments about babies is very sweet but she has repeatedly argued that life in-the-womb is far more important than the baby born. She argues for tax cuts in social services and cuts of government (but always wants to establish government services to further christian ideals and patrol too much independent thought), she argues against single parents being considered as parents so if this baby with DS is born to a single mom–who must go on public assistance–Shaunti wants the mommy/born babys benefits cut.
Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth
April 3rd, 2009
11:44 am
blessings!
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
11:47 am
TOJ –
from the bottom up –
congrats on the new digs – I hope the Monster Cat (TM) and pup are settling in well. good luck with the move – and I hope you’ll be happier with your new neighbors.
“When you do consider that (as you say) bank tellers are exploited by the banks and construction workers are exploited by the contractors, it is obvious that he had no argument.”
I think you may have missed my point last night. by using the definition we agreed upon, you level the playing field, thereby making women working in the porn industry (btw – why aren’t you worried about the men??) no more exploited than anyone who works for a bank, store or any other for-profit company. You make your point completely moot, in other words.
and, again, as the subject matter was framed by the discussion of porn available in hotel rooms, we were talking about LEGAL porn, not kiddie porn, so the inclusion of children in the discussion doesn’t apply any more than discussing flooding in antarctica. it doesn’t happen in LEGAL porn.
“When I am shown that I did say many untrue and down right false statements about “placenta stem cells” and “cord cells” I will apologize. She said that i made the statements during her pregnancy so I can’t really see that I would have been discussing Obama’s funding of it when Bush was still president.”
first of all, she delivered the little surfer dude right before V-day, so Obama was, in fact, sworn in while she was still pregnant – and, considering this was a major campaign promise, I’m not surprised that we were discussing it right around the inauguration (or thereabouts)
“But the question I have for you is this: Why are you trying so hard? Why do insist on reaching so deep? It shows a little desperation to me.”
reach deep?? what are you talking about? seriously. what ARE you talking about?? it’s not “reaching deep” to point out — and provide evidence — that obama isn’t ending other forms of stem cell research, that GA isn’t in the bottom 4 receiving stimulus money, that th Volt isn’t being shelved or that the previous administration made numerous links between Iraq and AQ that were unfounded.
see here’s the thing: if you think that “reaching deep” is taking 30-45 seconds to do a Google search, then you don’t understand the nature of a good debate. frankly, by providing evidence from trusted sources, I’m trying to avoid “yuh-huh/nuh-uh” juvenile pi$$ing matches that one gets with unsubstantiated statements (e.g., “the administration is scrapping the Volt”)
“Flor inglesa. Esté amable al hombre afortunado que usted elegido.”
gah. this english flower is coping with a head full-o-snot and a temperature that doesn’t know where it wants to land … but thanks.
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
11:48 am
Hey Dumbassi Queen Morgan:
So Dr [Dumbass] is it proof reading, Proof -reading, or proof-reading? So Barry and Bien are for entrepreneurship? How come all my friends with small business are laying folks off? Because Barry/Bien are socialist at best, communist or facists at worst. Please find somewhere else to post you stupidity! Welcome! 
Took you a long time to get as indoctrinated as you are! An edumacted [dumbass!] I admire you spending all those years sucking at the teat of liberalism. You now can show how stupid you are with big big words!
Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth
April 3rd, 2009
11:57 am
Lyrazel, thanks and shame on her!
Under Obama-Biden we will achieve a Greater Society akin to that of Scandinavia,which countries have a living standard higher than ours in that they want their money taxed enough to have that standard that not only achieves high wages but more of a safety-net! And a better safety-net goes hand in hand with more liberty1
The real road to serfdom would be to allow laissez-faire capitalism to make for monopolies and harm consumers and bust unions and other inhumane matters; Social Darwinism [Spencer- Randism] is nothing to affirm as we do not have to accept the perils of Nature but to use it as we ought.
Our empathy must be a planetary ethic as Paul Kurtz ever admonishes us to have.
Reactionaries delight in restricting opportunities for all. And I live and love to make them quake!
Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth
April 3rd, 2009
12:03 pm
Gandalf, such bleating will not impress rational people. Obama-Biden’s policies will help small business.
So, Limbaugh the Idiot is your hero!
Republicans, do you take these two as sensible leaders or can you find rational ones?
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
12:04 pm
Dr. Dum Bass! I suppose you believe in man influenced Global Warming too! In your perfect world there would be no Stephen Hawkins, he would have been aborted or murdered (these two words have a moral equivelency). Why? He’s defective!
JokesOn: sink the eight ball, on the SNAP!
EXAT: Cherry Blossums Still in bloom!
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
12:10 pm
Dr. Dum Bass! You are walking fool factory! Rational is one thing you are not, nor shall ever be. Too much time spent in those ivy covered walls have given you the mental disorder of liberalism.
Why did you capitolize “Greater Society”? Because you can’t cure stupid. Liberty1? is that a code for socialism? Please no longer respond to my posts. I have no time to listen to such an ill educated Dr. of dumbness. Go talk to you liberal friends. I am sure they all are not eating meat, driving Priusi, dating same sex cuz it’s cool and generally bothering every red blood liberty loving american along the way. (No Offense
! )
Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth
April 3rd, 2009
12:16 pm
USinUK, thanks.
Actually, I did post here months ago. For some reason, I didn’t receive newsletters, so, I failed to post until now. I was also busy proclaiming the evangel of rationalism world wide in different languages.
Also my self-esteem is increasing by answering opponents and noting what some book and essay writers opine that is false. My fingers are dyslexic!
I encourage true skepticism from a background of knowledge rather than from the argument from incredulity as reactionaries make.I urge everyone to be fallibilistic- to know that one might be mistaken.
I name-call but do not use ad hominems,using the distinction that the former is only to the person whilst the latter uses the person to argue erroneously against her position.
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
12:28 pm
Why do you hyphenate everything! Barry-Bien is exactly like saying Liar-Fool, or I don’t give money to charity – neither do I. Both wouldn’t be invited to a BBQ at the Gandalf ranch. Why? Because they suck!
Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth
April 3rd, 2009
12:29 pm
Gandalf, no offense as you take no offense at my name-calling[ I am sincere, not sarcastic for my part.].
Yet, you just are braying without any evidence whatsoever. So, you think that honest, hard-working Americans and their children in bad times for them are parasites as Herbert Spencer and Ayn Rand bleated?
One cannot reason with such as you who revel in your nescience, your unfounded accusations!
Let us have rationl comments with evidence!
Hasta luego.
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
12:30 pm
Hey Dr Dum Bass! Do us all a favor and STFU! PLEASE! You are just an educated idiot. They can put lipstick on a pig it seems, but it’s still a pig. Your name sound funny!
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
12:32 pm
Oh, I will thank you for giving me the Barry-Bien. I like that! Thanks Dr. Dum Bass!
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
12:37 pm
GtG –
“EXAT: Cherry Blossums Still in bloom!”
woowoo!! then, make sure you get to the Tidal Basin FIRST THING!! seriously, don’t unpack!!
oh, that’s another thing – the Monuments by Moonlight tour (departs from Union Stn) is fantastic!! The Iwo Jima monument is beautifulat night – and you get a fantastic view of the city … I don’t know if they include the new monument to the airforce (which looks like 2 giant tusks poking out of the ground, but that’s just my opinion)
The Pentagon has also opened a new garden dedicated to those who died on 9/11 – I’m not sure it’s open to the public, but it’s worth a try.
when do you head out?
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
12:37 pm
Grunt! This takes all my fun away!
Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth
April 3rd, 2009
12:39 pm
Folks, I donate to charities. I encourage everyone to do so, but such only pays much,much less than government.I encourage others to find in themselves the empathy to help defeat global abject poverty as does the ethicist Peter Singer.
No, I made the valid distinction between someone like Hawking and those dear Gale notes.
Lyrazel makes the valid case for abortions, but I emphasize the common meeting-ground of social services.
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
12:39 pm
Why is life so friggin hard?
Why is it Friday and no one told a joke yet?
are we the joke?
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
12:44 pm
“Why is it Friday and no one told a joke yet?”
head too stuffy for joke …
BUT, I’m happy to share some good news!! Iowa’s SC struck down the same-sex marriage ban:
Iowa’s Supreme Court legalized gay marriage Friday in a unanimous and emphatic decision that makes Iowa the third state _ and first in the nation’s heartland _ to allow same-sex couples to wed.
In its decision, the high court upheld a lower court’s ruling that found a state law restricting marriage to between a man and woman only violated Iowa’s constitution.
“If gay and lesbian people must submit to different treatment without an exceedingly persuasive justification, they are deprived of the benefits of the principle of equal protection upon which the rule of law is founded,” the court stated in its ruling.
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalellujah!!
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
12:45 pm
oops.
linkee: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/03/AR2009040300376.html?hpid=topnews
Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth
April 3rd, 2009
12:47 pm
Gandalf the White, does white mean you’re a racist ?
I am white but believe in miscegenation. All those pretty mixed-race women!
Actually, Pres. Barack Hussein Obama is our first mixed-race president. Our silly nomenclature defines one as black with just a little bit of black. One could define white as one with a litle-bit of white to the same people. So, the president then is just another white man despite his coloration!
And why are you anti-intellectual? Poor self-esteem?
Barney Frank isn’t the only mean liberal!
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
12:47 pm
can only think of corny jokes now thanks to USinUK
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
12:49 pm
Lyra –
corny jokes are always the best!!
share with the class (seriously, I’m tired of sneezing – I’d like to laugh)
Mara
April 3rd, 2009
12:55 pm
Morgan, the rhythem of your comments seems contrived to dissimulate, if you take my meaning. In syntax, Yoda-like you speak. What gives?
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
1:06 pm
okay … since we need some Friday funnies … here are some great Chuck Norris one-liners:
Chuck Norris isn’t lactose intolerant. He just doesn’t put up with lactose’s sh!t.
Chuck Norris doesn’t eat. Rather he kicks ass until he’s full.
Chuck Norris is the only man to ever defeat a brick wall in a game of tennis.
Chuck Norris is the reason why Waldo is hiding.
If Chuck Norris falls into a lake, he doesn’t get wet – the lake gets Chuck Norris!
Chuck Norris can kill 2 stones with 1 bird!
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris can set ants on fire with a magnifying glass. At night.
If you have $5 and Chuck Norris has $5, Chuck Norris has more money than you do.
Chuck Norris destroyed the periodic table because the only element he recognizes is the element of surprise!
Chuck Norris doesn’t write books – the words assemble themselves out of fear!!
Chuck Norris actually CAN believe it’s not butter.
Mara
April 3rd, 2009
1:07 pm
Iowa’s SC struck down the same-sex marriage ban
and Vermont seems to be seeing the idiocy of having the ’seperate but equal’ catagory of civil unions…they’re sending legislation to the Governor to scrap ‘em and just let everybody get married.
Joke for Friday -
At Saint Mary’s Catholic Church they have a weekly husband’s marriage seminar. At the session last week, the Priest asked Luigi, who was approaching his 50th wedding anniversary, to take a few minutes and share some insight into how he had managed to stay married to the same woman all these years.
Luigi replied to the assembled husbands, ‘Well, I’ve a-tried to treat-a her nice-a. I spend-a the money on her, but best of all is that I took-a her to Italy for the 20th anniversary!’
The Priest responded, ‘Luigi, you are an amazing inspiration to all the husbands here! Please tell us what you are planning for your wife for your 50th anniversary.’
Luigi proudly replied, ‘I’m a-gonna go back and get-a her.’
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
1:31 pm
laughs
Geeze italics is annoying to do….
Mara, quite astute with Yoda Wannabe. Take a bow at the lectern.
In honor of 50 years marriage jokes I present this corny joke: A couple gets married and the wife puts a foot locker in the bedroom. She
locks it, then puts the only key on a chain around her neck. For fifty
years, her husband tries to figure out what’s in there, but she always
changes the subject, and avoids the issue. Finally, on the night of their
fiftieth wedding anniversary, he says to her, “I’ve got to know what’s in
the trunk!” She takes the key, unlocks the foot locker, and inside there’s
two ears of corn and $25,000. The guy says, “What’s with the two ears of
corn?” She says, “Well, umm, in the fifty years, every time I broke our
marriage vows, I put an ear of corn in the trunk.” The guy figures, “Twice
in fifty years, not so bad…” Then he says, “And what’s the $25,000?” She
says, “Well, everytime I got a bushel, I sold it.”
Gale
April 3rd, 2009
1:33 pm
Iowa’s Supreme Court legalized gay marriage Friday Yahoo! One more down.
Chuck Norris doesn’t write books – the words assemble themselves out of fear!! Fantastic!
Morgan, please simplify your comments. Your wording is quite difficult to follow and I cannot but suspect you intend this. Gandalf’s ramblings are much easier to understand and leave absolutely not question about his position.
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
1:33 pm
How is an ear of corn like an army?
It has lots of kernels.
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
1:34 pm
If corn oil comes from corn, where does baby oil come from?
Lyrazel
April 3rd, 2009
1:39 pm
Sianarah, sionarah ya’all. Happy Friday!
Gale
April 3rd, 2009
1:39 pm
lyrazel – baby oil -ewww!
Mara
April 3rd, 2009
1:53 pm
baby oil
ROTFL!!!
weekend, folks…<>
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
2:06 pm
Dr Dumbass! Don’t you read? Please ask anyone here why my name is the White! It’s not a racist statement. POTUS Barry H. Nobama is not AFRICAN AMERICAN his heritage isn’t from Africans enslaved and brought to America, rather his heritage is from those Africans that ENSLAVED thier fellow Africans and sold them to White and Muslim Slave Traders. That is a very distinct difference. Just as MLB players of African descent from the Caribean can’t be considered African-American, neither can PRESBO. Oh I don’t like your boy Rush, the Rush I like is a band from Canada. Anti-intellectual, not at all, anti-intelligencia? Yes! You and your ilk spread hatred through politically correctness!
NOW GO AWAY BEFORE I TAUNT YOU A SECOND TIME!
YOUR MOTHER SMELLS OF ELDERBERRY AND YOUR FATHER WAS A HAMSTER!
I FART IN YOUR GENERAL DIRECTION!
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
2:10 pm
OI! GtG –
when are you heading north to DC?
Gandalf, the White!
April 3rd, 2009
2:12 pm
EXPAT:
Leaving in 5 minutes, work anyway, heading to Gandalf Ranch to pick up family unit.
TOJ:
Please keep YODA in check! PLEASE everyone else help! He/She’s a tool.
Me? racist? Hehe!
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
2:14 pm
okay, that’s it … I’m succumbing to my sinuses … if I don’t get a chance to chat with you before you go, have a fantastic time!! (it looks like the weather will be nice, if a bit coolish) can’t wait to hear about your trip when you get back!!
(and no calling Pelosi the chief of the dumbassi tribe to her face … )
Gale
April 3rd, 2009
2:30 pm
I thought about explaining Gandalf’s “White” to the newbie, but I knew he would explain himself in his own -gentle- fashion.
JokesOn
April 3rd, 2009
3:50 pm
JokesOn: sink the eight ball, on the SNAP!
That does not count as a win in league play. You can spot the 8-ball or re-break. Thanks for the shout-out though.
Came in 3rd which paid for my entry fee and food plus a little extra in the pocket. Free pool the whole time too, so not bad I guess.
JokesOn
April 3rd, 2009
4:01 pm
Just for you Lyrazel and also for those that have not seen this, it is hilarious. A office meeting but in blog stye: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1771556
It is a must see!
JokesOn
April 3rd, 2009
4:17 pm
For those that have not seen this, it is hilarious. A office meeting but in blog stye: www collegehumor com/video:1771556
Replace spaces with periods. Won’t get past filter. WARNING, they drop the f-bomb a couple times.
It is a must see!
O.M.G.
April 3rd, 2009
4:35 pm
JokesOn, that is TOO EFFING FUNNY!
USinUK
April 3rd, 2009
4:51 pm
Jokes – you win – that was brilliant!!!
daduk
April 3rd, 2009
4:57 pm
read your comments with intrest,may i correct your language,the
ds babies and ds children you refer to are actually babies with down syndrome and children with down syndrome.
JokesOn
April 3rd, 2009
4:57 pm
Glad you got to see it and liked it.
I LOOOVE the spams that comes in the door!
deborahinAthens
April 4th, 2009
6:18 am
It is not the place of government to dictate what a woman should or should not do with her body. Medical technology enables many mentally and physically impaired children to live that should not live. There are two major dangers with this. First, in the natural order of things, only the strongest should survive. With technology we can keep just about anyone alive. But in doing so, each generation gets weaker. The second major concern is the economic impact–not just on society, but on individual families. When I was a child, most Down Syndrome children didn’t live much past puberty. Today, they are living into middle age. They are having children themselves. This sounds noble, until you realize that most Down people do have a limited mental capacity, and can never earn enough to be truly independent. When the elderly parents of these children pass away, if there is no one else to take care of them, financially, what happens to them? And please don’t come back with the PC platitudes. This is merely a fact.
Nicole
April 4th, 2009
10:23 am
Some interesting, insightful and idiotic comments.
I have a child who has T21, and did receive a prenatal diagnosis. Almost 10 years into this journey of having Down syndrome in my life, and being around hundreds of families and people who are living with the condition I find it interesting that so many people w/out true knowledge feel the need to exclaim the purpose or point of life for our loved ones.
Down syndrome affects each individual very differently and there is no way to know what a unborn baby will be like… typical or with an extra chromosome.
My child is fiercely independent, the easiest to care for of our 4 children, smart, funny, loving, ornery, forgiving, compassionate…. in many facets the PERFECT child.
One of the most delayed children I know has provided more joy for her family than they could have imagined. Then I also know families who choose the suffering role and never learn to cope with their child’s differences, but most of these families had issues before their child arrived into their lives.
I also know families who deal with major medical issues on a daily basis for their child, and do indeed have financial difficulties as a result. I know families whose child does NOT have DS but has other medical issues and have the same fate.
There are many of us who some above would consider “liberal” who choose life, disabled or not. I embrace ALL people and find that my life has been enriched the most by those who have differences from mainstream America. As a Christian I am called to care for and love my neighbors, and that is one difference I wish our society would embrace.
JokesOn
April 4th, 2009
10:42 am
I appreciate both of your posts (deborahinAthens, Nicole), but what about the actual question being raised?
Deborahinathens,
I do not see dictating anywhere in the question. I would like to hear what you have to say about simply providing more funding for say: education, rearing the child and so forth.
I, personally, would not mind as long as it is purely factual info and not coercion. The next thing I would be concerned about is what other programs are not going to be funded as a result of the money being diverted.
There are a lot more women who have abortions because they are single and young than the DS issue at hand. So, if it is about the babies, I see a flaw in the need for funding one area and not another.
deborahinAthens
April 6th, 2009
6:15 am
Nicole, you sound like a wonderful parent, but to say your child is “fiercely independent” at age 10 is totally different than saying your Down Syndrome child is independent at age 45. My point was that these loving children are not likely to be able to support themselves as adults on their own. In the families that I am seeing this occur (parents in seventies and eighties and are declining and unable to care for themselves, physically and financially), it is truly a sad situation.
Gale
April 6th, 2009
8:23 am
Nicole, you had me until your last paragraph. It is irrelevant that you are a Christian. I wonder that you felt the need to inject that as reasoning. It colors everything else in your comments.
DeborahinAthens, we seem to have a similar opinion of the conundrum of modern medicine. We can prlong life for various defects and illnesses, but should we? As a civilized society, we feel we must. Or do we simply have another level of civilization to grow into? Or is it our technology that needs to advance? If we cannot bring an individual to a level of self-sufficiency, should we act at all, beyond relief of immediate distress, that is. I would certainly not advocate allowing someone to live in pain because that person will die anyway. Older societies once exposed infants that were not perfect. We have moved beyond that in even remote areas of the globe.
Lyrazel qestioned infants without limbs. I clearly remember a pregnancy drug causing that condition, although I do not remember the drug. As I remember, it was something to do with morning sickness. The infants were otherwise unaffected. But what kind of life do they have, if they are still alive. Without advances well beyond our current prosthetic devices, they can never be self-sufficient. This would be a condition that could be recognized today with ultrasound at a very early stage. I am pretty sure what I would decide, but I’m not faced with it and would not presume to nudge a mother one way or another. The families, however, should not be deluded into thinking that the government will make it allright and the child can live a normal life. It won’t happen.
USinUK
April 6th, 2009
8:45 am
Gale –
“Lyrazel qestioned infants without limbs. I clearly remember a pregnancy drug causing that condition, although I do not remember the drug.”
Thalydomide.
USinUK
April 6th, 2009
9:26 am
DeborahinAthens – VERY well said in your 6:15 post.
here’s the thing. at what point does “government encouragement” go too far? encouraging home ownership fosters better/stronger communities (in other words, has an effect that is far greater than just the one person). encouraging home insulation fosters a reduced strain on our resources – again, a impact that is also far greater than just the one person/family.
but, where you get me is government encouragent of marriage??? I understand the idea that a solid foundation is good for kids, but this is reeeeaaaalllly starting to encroach on the personal for me. (let’s be honest, the piece of paper doesn’t necessarily make one couple stronger than the couple who is “living in sin”)
and now, encouraging people to have more children with DS??? that’s starting to get entirely too much into personal business for my liking.
Gale
April 6th, 2009
9:27 am
Thalidomide, amazingly still available, though with restrictions and serious warning labels. I read some info about the few documented survivors still alive. With examples like this one, I would think parents and doctors would think long and hard before allowing children to take behavior modifying drugs. What will the effects of that drug be on that child’s children? Was that ever tested; certainly not in a human test.
USinUK
April 6th, 2009
9:43 am
Gale –
“With examples like this one, I would think parents and doctors would think long and hard before allowing children to take behavior modifying drugs. What will the effects of that drug be on that child’s children? Was that ever tested; certainly not in a human test.”
well, I don’t know about the second-generation drugs for treating ADHD, ADD, etc, but, heck, Ritalin has been around since I was a kid – (and I’m 40-mumble-mumble) – I think that any problems would be identified, by now for the children of the kids who took it in the 60s/70s.
Archie
April 6th, 2009
10:08 am
I concur with Mara’s opinion on April 3rd at around 10:30 am. It covered all the points that I would make.
My question is what can we the citizens of South Carolina do to get rid our stupid governor. I know those from the North think those of us from the South are the dumbest people but we’re not, it’s just a mentality that has existed since the Civil War that we can’t get rid of. I mean we’re going to have to pay back the money no matter what but the idiot governor wants to refuse 700 million dollars on a misguided principle. I am sorry for venturing off topic but so many topics seem to go back to abortion that it’s not worth spending too much time on the main topic. Anyway I concur with Mara’s post a few days ago.
USinUK
April 6th, 2009
10:32 am
Hey Archie!!
“My question is what can we the citizens of South Carolina do to get rid our stupid governor.”
one word: recall.
the question is – can the st. leg. override him on the $700m?? for the sake of your schools and your emergency personnel, I sure hope so!!
(meanwhile, can you imagine the outcry you would hear if a DEM GOV refused money to support police??? eesh … it doesn’t bear thinking about, what you would hear from Rush/Coulter/Malkin/Hannity/Ingraham&Co)
Gale
April 6th, 2009
10:37 am
Recall might be an option. What are the criteria for recalling a gov in SC, Archie? Would such a proposal make it to the floor of the legislature, or would they table it?
Mara
April 6th, 2009
10:50 am
Archie – Anyway I concur with Mara’s post a few days ago.
thanks, Archie. Like I said, I don’t think that’s a decision for anyone except the woman, her doctor, and maybe her family.
As for your governor…rumor has it that the whole stimulus thing is a positioning ploy for a 2012 Presidential run. Pretty sad if he’s refusing the funds just so he can run as a ‘fiscal conservative’. I read that the legislature, Democrats and Republican both, are looking for ways to over-ride his decision.