Trust and the transportation sales tax
If the referendum for a transportation sales tax in metro Atlanta fails this month, the cause is likely to be a lack of trust.
The most obvious trust gap is the one that separates most tea partyists from government spending. No surprise there. But the trust deficit that matters most in the July 31 vote, and the one that runs the deepest, separates white and black in metro Atlanta.
Or, if you prefer to keep things on a more civilized plane, it creates a divide between Democrats in Fulton and DeKalb counties on one hand, and Republicans in the other eight counties on the other.
All along, the strategy for passage of the transportation sales tax has been based on keeping the vote close in GOP strongholds such as Cobb and Gwinnett counties, then running up the score with strong African-American support in Atlanta and areas south of I-20.
This week, Channel 2 Action News released a poll, conducted by Rosetta Stone Communications, which showed only 38 percent of voters in the 10-county region in support of more spending to get metro Atlanta moving. In Fulton and DeKalb counties alone, support was measured at 49.6 percent – well short of what’s needed to make the formula work.
One reason for any lack of enthusiasm is the penny sales tax that Fulton and DeKalb residents already pay to fund MARTA. Passage would apply the transportation sales tax to all counties. The penny gap would remain.
But there is a larger unease growing, at least within the DeKalb and Fulton county political communities. As Republicans finally turn their heads toward the need for a regional transportation solution, some African-American lawmakers and other elected officials worry that their role in a transit system that they have managed for better than three decades is about to be lessened – or largely subverted.
As the Legislature shut down this spring, one bill lost to the clock would have transferred the power to appoint two members of the MARTA board from the Fulton County Commission to a council of six north Fulton mayors. In exchange, MARTA would have been allowed – for three years – to spend its sales tax revenue as it liked.
Longstanding state law prevents the transit system from spending more than 50 percent of sales tax revenue on operations – things such as salaries and electric bills. With sales tax revenue down because of the recession, the restriction is on hold until next year. But a financially pinched MARTA wants a extension and had reluctantly acquiesced, we’re told, to a deal brokered by House Majority Whip Edward Lindsey, R-Atlanta.
Lindsey said his bill is certain to return in January for quick passage.
Not long after the MARTA bill suffered this temporary setback, House Speaker pro tem Jan Jones, R-Milton, held a session with north Fulton constituents eager to create a new Milton County. The process would begin in January, the lawmaker told them. “My goal is to end Fulton County and bring government closer to the people,” Jones said.
Taken together, Jones’ comments and the MARTA bill sent a shiver down the spines of many black leaders in Fulton and DeKalb who are now being asked to turn out voters in July. “It’s definitely a concern,” said DeKalb County Commissioner Lee May, who opposes the referendum.
He understands the consequences. “DeKalb County residents are the type of voter that this initiative needs to win. We understand that in order to realize a benefit, you have to pay for it. Others in the region have shown a tendency to not want to pay for things,” May said.
The removal of Fulton County’s authority to appoint members of the MARTA board is only a precursor of things to come, May said. “It’s a slippery slope. You can see we’re clearly headed in the same direction as Fulton County with the cityhood movement. They’ll be coming for DeKalb soon.”
But Republicans say trust is a two-way street. Jones, the No. 2 leader in the House, doesn’t deny the remarks she made last month, but says they weren’t reported in full. “We’re looking at Fulton County as a model that is no longer relevant. It’s not that it’s good or bad. It’s just not relevant,” Jones said.
The House leader said she is willing to move slowly, and that the future of Fulton County shouldn’t become part of the transportation debate. “I’m a patient person,” she said. As for the measure to give north Fulton mayors the power to appoint members of the MARTA board, Jones said her voters need to have a more direct stake in transportation decisions.
“If they felt that they had a seat at the table, they would certainly be more likely to trust it and be interested in it,” Jones said.
Lindsey, author of the MARTA compromise, said much the same thing. “The fact of the matter is, Fulton County looks very different than what it did in the 1970s when we set up who all got to appoint whom. We now have all these cities up in north Fulton,” Lindsey said. And their residents pay a penny for MARTA, too.
Lindsey characterized the MARTA bill that will return next year as a piece of hard bargaining on both sides that would make Mick Jagger proud. “Everybody doesn’t get what they want, but they get what they need,” he said.
In exchange for increased north Fulton authority over MARTA, the transit agency gets more control over its own cash flow for three years. And that should be just enough time for state to establish a bona fide, regional transit system, Lindsey said.
Who controls it, and who pays for it, remain open questions.
- By Jim Galloway, Political Insider
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155 comments Add your comment
Out by the Pond
June 30th, 2012
2:31 pm
Y many of the transit projects include operational subsidies for the first 10 years of operation. The law authorizing Tsplost forbids the tax to be extended. It allows for a new tax for a new list of projects. It also allows the setting up for each project that includes operational expenses a trust fund to cover an additional 10 years of operating expenses. If such a trust fund is or should we say when each trust fund is established how much money will be withheld from construction projects? So the true cost of the street car to no where is actually larger than project, even before the cost over runs that will be a part of every one of these project.
The more I look into this slush fund for developers the more it stinks. No wonder the board or realtors is pushing the passage of this regressive tax increase.
Proud Voter
June 30th, 2012
2:38 pm
“The law authorizing Tsplost forbids the tax to be extended. It allows for a new tax for a new list of projects. It also allows the setting up for each project that includes operational expenses a trust fund to cover an additional 10 years of operating expenses.”
Out-by-the-pond . . . Where in the tsplost wording does it say this?
It doesn’t. That’s why nobody can find it to refute or validate your statement.
Come in from the heat, out-by-the-pond, you’re cooking your brain matter out there and you’re not making sense.
But . . . read the t-splost wording and make an educated negative opinion and we can talk about that. But made-up stuff is not a valid argument.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 30th, 2012
2:41 pm
Auntie Christ
June 30th, 2012
12:43 pm
{{{”Meanwhile here in Decatur I feel I have a legitimate gripe that Cobb, Gwinnett and Clayton rejected MARTA years ago and denied us the opportunity to have a world class rapid transit system by now, and want me to help them with another 1% of my money to catch up. These are good repubs that don’t like government assistance, yet want me to subsidize their life style choices.”}}}
You’ve got to remember that when the first MARTA votes were held back in the late 1960’s in which the MARTA referendum failed in all five counties including Fulton and DeKalb counties, that Clayton County was a predominantly white suburb that was popular with airport and airline employees, Cobb County was an even more predominantly white distant suburb with a exurban to semi-rural feel (sort of like Cherokee or Paulding counties are today) and less than a third of its current population of almost 700,000 people and Gwinnett was by all appearances a considered by all to a distant exurb that was almost completely rural and had only about less than one-eleventh of its current population of 810,000 people (Gwinnett only had about 70,000 people then and was similiar to far-exurban and mostly rural Jackson County up I-85 in Northeast Georgia).
Seeing as though that Clayton, Cobb and Gwinnett (and DeKalb) and all of Metro Atlanta were very different places when the first MARTA referendums were held back in the 1960’s and 70’s and that those counties would remain mostly rural, exurban and suburban for many years, unlike the increasingly urban communities that they are today, it wasn’t the rejection of MARTA in those then-rural, exurban and suburban counties that has retarded MARTA’s growth and quality-of-service so much as it has been the mismanagement, cronyism and incompetence on MARTA’s part to offer a high level-of-service to the areas in Fulton and DeKalb counties that it was allowed to serve.
Instead of worrying about the rejection of its service in the counties that did not want it, MARTA should have and could have been doing all that it could do to offer the highest level of service possible in the places in Fulton and DeKalb counties that did want it.
James
June 30th, 2012
2:43 pm
TPLOST is a lot of of money for not much. if our leaders had beem more focused on relieving traffic congestion and less focusing on re-engineering how Atlantan’s live and work, we might have a plan that would be worth the cost.
It’s just not this plan. We are not going to support a plan that siphon’s off so much money for political priorities and does not really unlock our traffic problems.
James
June 30th, 2012
2:53 pm
I don’t give a fig for you supporting my lifestyle choice, Auntie. You keep your money and I will keep mine.
But don’t try to siphon off my money to fund a train system that has been mismanged for decades that is more irrelevant with every passing year. The old model of jobs in the city center surrounded by bedroom communities died during the past couple of decades. We don’t need to go downtown to work any more. The jobs have steadily marched to the north for 30 years in Atlanta. Thirty years from now when the TSPLOST funded transit work is finally finished, this investment will look incredibly stupid and backwards.
BTW, take your bigotry and shove it. Fulton and DeKalb can keep pushing the victim rhetroic all they want. It’s not helping your argument much.
Abbie
June 30th, 2012
2:55 pm
That’s right: This is Atlanta so every “controversial” or “difficult” topic is about racism. That’s right. That’s the culture of the city. That’s also why the city of Atlanta will never become a progressive city. That’s why they haven’t. That’s why I hate the city, the lack of growth of Atlanta is all about “blame” to other areas that are just getting on with life and prosperity despite the complexion or culture of the citizens. N Fulton cities (like John’s Creek and Alpharetta with a widely varied demographics of race and cultures) are the examples of local business leaders striving to bring in industry and improve quality of life of ALL residents by “just getting it done”. Atlanta could have been a jewel in the south, but this focus on “poor me, racism” removes the motivation to fix their own problems and just to blame others. Galloway, you are WAY off the mark.
Fair and Balanced
June 30th, 2012
2:58 pm
Fine…let the TIA fail…and anyone who does not live in Fulton/Dekalb/City of Atlanta should have to pay a $10 fee (dedicated to MARTA funding) and have a sticker on their windshield to be able to park their car in any of the above municipalities. Those same people should be forced to pay 50 cents to $1 more to use MARTA…sounds like that would even things up rather quickly and give MARTA a nice revenue boost…
Fair and Balanced
June 30th, 2012
3:00 pm
@abbie
I would point to conservatism more than racism that keeps Atlanta down. Its a Rural/suburban vs urban
MM
June 30th, 2012
3:03 pm
In the 1960s and ‘70s political deals were made between white and black elites in order to keep the racial peace which resulted in Atlanta wrongly being named as “The City Too Busy To Hate.” The Atlanta Compromise was that 1) the Atlanta Public Schools system would be put under black control and 2) MARTA would be run mostly by blacks. These deals took the steam out of demands from non-elite blacks for power by creating a black middle class. These deals were made by the political elites below the radar of the public as the truly big deals always have been here.
Atlanta has lived with the benefits and costs of this so-called Atlanta Compromise for almost 50 years but now these agreements are coming apart. Publicity has touted the growing number of black millionaires but the black elites benefited at a tremendous cost to poor blacks. The APS scandal exposed for all to see the result of letting incompetent management destroy any possibility of a good education for generations of black kids. The price for the MARTA deal meant that public transportation would be limited to the inner core of counties effectively stranding generations of inner city blacks from the prosperity of the suburbs.
Nothing lasts forever and now things are changing. The old order has eroded away. The problems of poor black Atlantans are still with us but time has long since extinguished the fires of rebellion that at one time promised the possibility of meaningful change. Lester Maddox’s descendants now rule Georgia and truly courageous black leadership is nowhere to be found. For good and bad the new Transportation Bill will shift power away from MARTA. Even the state’s ruling rustics can see the value of the economic linkages between Atlanta and the rest of the state. It remains to be seen whether real change will happen at APS. As always nobody gives a damn about poor black kids.
Kim
June 30th, 2012
3:12 pm
The reason I said I don’t care if you call us racist IS because the race card is played constantly. When a liberal has no valid argument they scream racism. I know I’m not racist so the word doesn’t affect me one little bit.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 30th, 2012
3:16 pm
Another of MARTA’s fatal flaws has been the agency’s failure to index its fares to the cost of inflation over the years, just like the state failed to account for the cost of inflation by failing to index gas taxes by percentages instead of a set amount per-gallon (for example, in hindsight, it appears that the state gas tax should have been 7.5 percent as opposed to the diminishing returns that a set gas tax of 7.5 cents-per-gallon provides).
It MARTA had set their fares to rise with inflation over the years instead of purposefully trying to keep fares as low as possible to accommodate homeless and very low-income riders, they might be a much better financial position just like the Georgia Department of Transportation might be in a much better financial position if the gas tax had been pegged to the level of inflation by being collected as a percentage instead of a set amount of 7.5 cents-per-gallon that never changes, despite the price of gas about 10 times what it was in 1970.
If the price of gas had been set by a percentage instead of as a set price, the gas tax would also be collecting 10 times what it collected in 1970 to keep up with our current road infrastructure needs instead of generating diminishing returns each year.
It’s too late to adjust the gas tax to inflation by pegging it to be collected as a percentage of the total amount of gas purchased instead of the set amount of 7.5 cents-per-gallon, but it is not too late to better adjust the road-funding formula by abolishing the state gas tax on all Georgia drivers, substantially raising the gas tax that would remain only on out-of-state drivers and levying distance-based user fees on Georgia drivers instead of a gas tax.
The state should do something similar with transit funding by eliminating the 1% sales tax that residents of Fulton and DeKalb counties pay to fund MARTA and instead fund the operations of mass transit with a combination of distance-based user fees, public-private partnerships and Tax Increment Financing (property tax revenues from future development that pops along transit lines) by freeway corridor as opposed to trying to force everyone into a one-size-fits-all funding and logistical approach that clearly does not work and is not politically-feasible.
bu2
June 30th, 2012
3:20 pm
Lots of good comments.
Out by the pond makes a good point how substantial operating costs are built into the TSPLOST with no provision for operating these things beyond that period.
This is simply a bad project list. Those who say its the best we can do are part of the problem. We need to just say no to the politicians and developers. We need to demand more out of government instead of settling for projects that do little and waste much. This whole project list was done backwards. They came up with the money first instead of developing a coherent project list first and then winnowing it down. An article on the Belt Line called it a developers dream. If they want to re-engineer Atlanta, let Atlanta pay for it. Don’t tax us all for a questionable real estate development program. This list will keep us from ever solving the problems.
E. Newman
June 30th, 2012
3:33 pm
I will be voting against the bill because it contains too many road projects and not enough rail. I don’t view commuter buses as transit projects. Rail is a more permanent fix and cannot be rerouted or cut like MARTA’s bus routes.
Lester Maddox
June 30th, 2012
3:35 pm
For the record I enjoy a ripe mellon and would not want to pay additional tax on this.
Seriously, with the exception of Coke and Southern Company most of the big corporate headquarters are located on the north side (Home Depot in Smyrna; UPS GE Power System, Rubbermaid, Coke Enterprises in Sandy Spring and Roswel), so why do we need more MARTA train into the city?
People live on the northside for a reason; better government, less crime, better shopping, close to work, etc… Let us keep it this way, if Atlanta want to build a beltline to nowhere anybody works let them build it with their own money.
Auntie Christ
June 30th, 2012
3:37 pm
Dear James: you said “I don’t give a fig for you supporting my lifestyle choice, Auntie. You keep your money and I will keep mine.” I thought I made it clear that I was voting ‘no’ so your advice is redundant. But tho you don’t give a fig, your repub politician friends who are pushing this boondoggle sure want me to support your choices with my $$.
“The old model of jobs in the city center surrounded by bedroom communities died during the past couple of decades. We don’t need to go downtown to work any more.”
With such a narrow perspective, I would not expect you to support rapid rail. It may surprise you that there are 1000’s of young professionals in places like Atlantic Station, and downtown lofts who do need to get to Windward and the office parks in Dunwoody and P’tree Corners. There are sales people whose office is in Northlake who need to call on clients in Marietta. There are people from your neighborhood who attend events at the Fox and Ga dome, Braves, Hawks and Falcon games and pubs in Little Five Pts. who would love to leave their cars at home. There are moneyed people downtown who would like to visit specialty shops at Perimeter or Cumberland Malls and not have to plan on a 2 hour commute. Maybe you should revisit your model, and realize a transit system’s only function is not just to accomodate downtown corporations, but to increase freedom of movement and increased commerce.
And finally James, you too can take your racism and shove it.
Auntie Christ
June 30th, 2012
3:46 pm
Previously I said “a transit system’s only function is not just to accomodate downtown corporations, but to increase freedom of movement and increased commerce.”
I forgot to add, “and to allow inner city youths to come into lester mad ax and kim’s neighborhood to rape and kill.” That’s the primary tenet of our socialist, fascist, communist, athiest conspiracy, that Obama and I have concocted.
Jerry
June 30th, 2012
3:46 pm
I will not vote for the transportation tax. There are too many transit projects on the list that will just make it easier for people from the city to come up into the northern suburbs. Like Kim I sit on 400 everyday to get away from the criminal element in Atlanta. I don’t want to be their neighbors, I want to live as far away from them as possible, while still being able to commute to work. If the tax included widening 400 to 6 or 7 lanes in each direction and to take car of some of the other roads up here, without the transit element, I’d be more strongly inclined to vote for it. Instead, it’s just a ploy to allow southside criminals more access to more of the metro area and also for a bunch a square glassed hipsters to fool themselves into thinking they live in some northern city.
Just no. We don’t want it, nor do we need. We need to keep as many southsiders below I-20 as possible. They’ve already tried to encroach of Buckhead and this tax wouldjust allow them to swarm northward.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 30th, 2012
3:50 pm
Fair and Balanced
June 30th, 2012
2:58 pm
{{{”Fine…let the TIA fail…and anyone who does not live in Fulton/Dekalb/City of Atlanta should have to pay a $10 fee (dedicated to MARTA funding) and have a sticker on their windshield to be able to park their car in any of the above municipalities. Those same people should be forced to pay 50 cents to $1 more to use MARTA…sounds like that would even things up rather quickly and give MARTA a nice revenue boost…”}}}
First, seeing as though OTP suburbanites are currently up in arms over the prospect that a large part of the proposed regional T-SPLOST will go to fund MARTA, there’s no way politically that OTP suburbanites in Cobb and Gwinnett and exurbanites in Cherokee and Fayette would go for being charged any type of required fee or tax fund MARTA in any way, shape or form.
OTP suburbanites and exurbanites being required to pay taxes and fees that will go fund MARTA or any type of transportation or economic development initiative (like the Beltline or trolleys in the City of Atlanta) is just simply not politically feasible or doable.
Second, a 50-cent to $1.00 fare-increase on transit riders who are non-residents of Fulton and DeKalb without a corresponding substantial increase in taxes would be nowhere near enough to fund the true costs of providing mass transit service which is actually close to $13.00 per-passenger, meaning that a minimal increase in fares to only $3.00 to $3.50 one-way, while providing a substantial increase in revenues to MARTA, would not come anywhere near-close to helping fully fund MARTA’s cost of operations.
In Northern California BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) utilizes a distance-based fare system in which some trips, particularly cross-town trips to and from the San Francisco International Airport, are as high as $10.90 one-way and it still is not enough to fund the estimated $13.00/passenger cost of providing transit service, the rest of which is subsidized by the public through pretty substantially high property taxes.
http://www.bart.gov/tickets/calculator/index.aspx
{”$10.90 / $4.05*
One-way from
Pittsburg/Bay Point
to San Francisco Int’l Airport}
{*Senior, Youth and RTC Clipper fare. Restrictions apply. Read more}
Corruption fighter
June 30th, 2012
3:58 pm
Take away ga state income tax of 6% and i will support this tax increase – because then all the people on welfare and illegal aliens will pay” SOME TAX”
OTHERWISE I AM VOTING NO NO ON THIS TAX INCREASE.
I AM TAXED ENOUGH AND I DONT WANT TO CONTRIBUTE TO MARTA AND ATLANTA POLITICIANS PENSION PLANS.
TRANSPORTATION FUNDING IS A BIG LIE TO FOOL TAXPAYERS- MOST OF MONEY WILL BE USED FOR COVERING BUDGET GAPS.
BABY
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 30th, 2012
4:20 pm
Jerry
June 30th, 2012
3:46 pm
“People from the city” are already up in the Northern Suburbs in abundance as traditionally ultraconservative suburban Cobb County has a population of nearly 700,000 with many public high school clusters that are predominantly non-white (Pebblebrook HS, South Cobb HS, McEachern HS, Osborne HS, Campbell HS, Marietta HS).
While formerly exurban Gwinnett County has a population of over 810,000 people with a festering Latin American gang and drug cartel problem (one of the absolute worst in any metro area East of the Mississippi River and in the nation) and even more public high school clusters that are predominantly non-white (South Gwinnett HS, Shiloh HS, Parkview HS, Berkmar HS, Central Gwinnett HS, Meadowcreek HS, Norcross HS, Duluth HS, Peachtree Ridge HS) and a few more that are on the verge of becoming majority non-white (Grayson HS, Archer HS, Collins Hill HS, Dacula HS) as Gwinnett County has rather quickly evolved into one of the most-diverse counties in the entire nation.
Looks like “people from the city” already have found their way into the suburbs by using the same form of transportation that lily-white middle-class wannabe rich people (real rich people live behind walls and gates in exclusive subdivisions in multimillion-dollar homes unlike self-styled wannabes), cars as more crimes are committed using cars in Atlanta than are committed using MARTA.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 30th, 2012
4:33 pm
Jerry
June 30th, 2012
3:46 pm
Widening Georgia 400 to 6 or 7 lanes in each direction is just not financially or politicially feasible at this point as do you know how many people would be up in arms the first time that GDOT even suggested cutting down the tree buffer that lines both sides of GA 400, especially in a mature suburb like Sandy Springs in which the highway is lined with heavy residential development on both sides of the road?
And just-in-case you haven’t noticed, Southside criminals already have plenty of access to most of the metro area by way of cars as Metro Atlanta led the nation in bank robberies in 2007 with more bank hold-ups than traditional bank robbery capital Los Angeles, which annually leads THE WORLD in the amount of bank robberies committed and traditional suburban/exurban havens Cobb and Gwinnett counties aren’t exactly crime-free havens these days.
A B Normal
June 30th, 2012
4:45 pm
If Jim hadn’t made it about race in the story, one of you simpletons would have in the blog. The bottom line is this: The imbeciles we elected (yes, I voted in every election I had the opportunity to) have not been, and do not indicate they will become worthy of our trust to do the right things in this matter.
hiram
June 30th, 2012
4:45 pm
If you want to see Atlanta’s future, just take a trip to Los Angeles, where towns are segregated by ethnic origin – East L.A., Watts, Beverly Hills, etc.. All of them were founded and formerly populated by “lilly whites”. The melting pot utopia is pure fantasy, as this blog illustrates.
Tired of BS
June 30th, 2012
4:48 pm
Straight up….. just the same liberals pandering to the same minorities who always willing to sell their vote if it will insure they are able to continue to legally steal money from the good hard working folks. This is not about transportation…. it’s about power and vote buying.
Spare me the “you’re a racist”…. it’s old, tired, over used, and I’m just so tired of all the BS.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 30th, 2012
5:14 pm
hiram
June 30th, 2012
4:45 pm
{{{”If you want to see Atlanta’s future, just take a trip to Los Angeles, where towns are segregated by ethnic origin – East L.A., Watts, Beverly Hills, etc.. All of them were founded and formerly populated by “lilly whites”. The melting pot utopia is pure fantasy, as this blog illustrates.”}}}
You are very correct. They’ve got a name for the type of diversity that you describe in a major metro area like Los Angeles, it called a “polyglot”, which is how L.A. is often described as what is likely the most diverse city on earth, which is Atlanta’s future, a future that has already been determined for this town and was set in motion when Atlanta was picked to host the Summer Olympic games back in 1990, transit or no transit.
It’s not MARTA or mass transit that has been driving the ongoing diversification of this metro area. It’s the the fact that Metro Atlanta is home to the world’s busiest airport, played host to a mega international event in the Summer Olympics, is held in such high-esteem by lower-class, middle-class and upper-class blacks around the country as New York is for middle and upper-class whites and is the site where three of the busiest highways on the entire planet meet (I-75, I-85 & I-20).
Even with its obvious governing and logistical flaws, Atlanta is a highly-visible International city and other than finding a way to stop the increasingly rampant commercial overdevelopment that has been a feature of this region for the last 4-5 decades or so, we are powerless to stop the continued transition of this city and region into an ultra-diverse East Coast clone of Los Angeles, sans the beach, the mountains and the more-extensive freeway system.
Kris
June 30th, 2012
5:43 pm
[snatches the Ex-Lax from GOP]
YOU SHALL NOT PASS!
Head On : Vote NO!
Uncle Bubba
June 30th, 2012
5:50 pm
I’m voting no on TSPLOST for the simple reason that it’s a bad plan. The majority of the projects is more roads and the mass transit slices just don’t make sense or are ineffectual for most people. Taxes aren’t the issue for me as I’ve got no problem paying for something that makes sense. The issue is planning, something Atlanta has never had since freaking Reconstruction. It’s always a slapped together compromise with no vision in this town. There’s always a plan B and saying that TSPLOST is the only option is nonsense. It’s simply not true. Someone else mentioned Los Angeles in the comments above and I’ve been saying for 20 years that Atlanta seems hell bent on adopting that transportation nightmare as it’s model. Where are the leaders? Where are the visionaries? They’re certainly not the folks pandering to the drooling developers. And they sure as heck aren’t found in DeKalb where I live. Our commissioners are powerless and gutless. TSPLOST is bad for Atlanta. We all deserve better, in-town and outside the perimeter.
Chris Sanchez
June 30th, 2012
5:51 pm
The project list makes no difference. The TSPLOT will never be passed even with it being tucked in with the July primary vote. Too many people are going to go out of their way help voter turn out to defeat this proposal before it becomes the disaster the majority of people see coming.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 30th, 2012
6:42 pm
Uncle Bubba
June 30th, 2012
5:50 pm
You got it! Atlanta does seem hell bent on adopting the Los Angeles nightmare of a transportation model.
The only thing is that, unlike Atlanta whose surface road network is based on ancient Indian trails that resemble a plate of spaghetti at best, at least Los Angeles had some semblance of a surface road network and an extensive freeway system to handle automobile traffic until the crushing population growth eventually totally overwhelmed the one-dimensional transportation network and they were left with no choice but to invest heavily in rail transit.
Atlanta won’t be anywhere near as lucky as L.A. because, unlike L.A. (or Houston or Dallas or even Miami) which with their extensive surface road and freeway networks could get by without investing in transit for much longer, Atlanta will likely be forced to adopt a transit-heavy approach much sooner rather than because of the notable lack-of-adequate surface road and freeway options and a political environment that abhors new road construction almost as much as it severely abhors rail transit.
hiram
June 30th, 2012
9:06 pm
@will the last…
You must not be familiar with this:
“By the time of the 1973 oil crisis, controversial new testimony was presented to a United States Senate inquiry into the causes of the decline of streetcar systems in the U.S. This alleged that there was a wider conspiracy—by GM in particular—to destroy effective public transport systems in order to increase sales of automobiles and that this was implemented with great effect to the detriment of many cities.”
“General Motors streetcar conspiracy”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy
To all that say....
June 30th, 2012
9:22 pm
…the only reason Cobb and Gwinnett didn’t originally want MARTA was do to WHITE racists. WRONG. Around that time Blacks were starting to become the dominant politicians in the City of Atlanta because of white flight and they didn’t want their influence on the MARTA board diluted by the white folks of Cobb and Gwinnett. These so called “leaders,” NEVER wanted those counties to be a part of MARTA anyway. City of Atlanta black racists. LOL.
Kris
June 30th, 2012
9:31 pm
@ hiram
By the time of the 1973 oil crisis….
No offense, but like this t-spLOST that crises was a scam for the oil barons and their cronies to get rich.
Remember the national wide 55 mph….Yep that like this TAX the GOP calls t-spLOST (which theiy are so against a TAX….any way a diesel truck doing 55 mph burns as much fuel than at 65…IE it has to run a longer amount of time, thus more fuel burned.
Rub on imbecile Head On : Vote NO!
.
hiram
June 30th, 2012
9:33 pm
@To all that say
The fatal error made by the whites when they abandoned Atlanta, was their failure to extend the city limits.
20/20
June 30th, 2012
9:51 pm
As usual, Galloway resorts to bashing white people (vs. African), Republicans (vs. Democrats), North Metro (vs. South Metro), and, of course, anything to further bash “Tea Party” types – whoever they are. To further take a short quote from him, “No surprise there.” Does that pretty well sum it up for the AJC and its editorial stance?
Partial Payment
June 30th, 2012
10:00 pm
When the state Government (Sonny “go Fish” Perdue) reneged on the 400 toll collection, I forever broke with any state government and believe more than ever that neither party in state government can be trusted and that includes the present crop who is drooling over making some under-the-table kickback for promoting TSPLOST.
Out by the Pond
June 30th, 2012
10:04 pm
Proud Voter 2:38 – we understand that you may not be able to read or that such a lenghty bill this one my be a bit intimidating to your weak mind so Imwill give you some references. 48-8-240 (c) covers the slush oops I mean opporation. Funds for an additional 10 years. This section also forbids MARTA fromusing any of the Tsplost. Funds for non project operations or maintenance.
48-8245(b) covers the end of the tax. It’s all right there in black and white for any one with a third grade education to read. They have to keep it simple, they are GA Legislatures and most can not read much beyond the third grade level.
Cobb resident & voter
June 30th, 2012
11:31 pm
@ Auntie Christ “Meanwhile here in Decatur I feel I have a legitimate gripe that Cobb, Gwinnett and Clayton rejected MARTA years ago and denied us the opportunity to have a world class rapid transit system by now, and want me to help them with another 1% of my money to catch up. These are good repubs that don’t like government assistance, yet want me to subsidize their life style choices.”
The TIA referendum is very unpopular in Cobb county. I plan to vote NO. We don’t want you to subsidize us at all. We don’t want rapid transit placed one mile into Cobb at the cost of nearly $1B.
@ K. Rasheed “If the suburbanites and their corporate employers want better transportation systems move back into the city. I do not support paying for their greed and ignorance!”
As a Cobb suburbanite whose employer is also in Cobb, I agree that if we wanted transit and a city lifestyle we should move to the city. We have NO interest in living in Atlanta nor even going to Atlanta for any reason other than to pass through on the occasional vacation trip. I like the suburbs and plan to stay here and don’t want you to pay an additional 1% sales tax to provide any transit for us.
If I had one traffic project to choose, it would be an east/west corridor from Cobb to Gwinnett north of I-285.
Jerry
June 30th, 2012
11:59 pm
@Turnthelightsoff: The city I was referring to is Atlanta, not any other city. We don’t have the hoodrats and hoodlums from south of I-20 in my community, and we intend to keep it that way. There are already portions of Cobb and Gwinnett that have gone to hell due to illegals setting up wildcat, favela-style trailer parks all over portions of those counties. That is why I live in Forsyth. I don’t care what Sandy Springs or any other city along 400 wants to preserve. The fact of the matter is that the road needs to be widened to allow us in Forsyth to get to and from work faster. We don’t want MARTA, we just want more lanes. This transportation tax will fail. The only people who will vote for it are the hipsters from Edgewood and the thugs from DeKalb and portions of Atlanta south of I-20. Give me more lanes and keep the MARTA mess within the city and maybe I will consider voting for it.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
July 1st, 2012
1:04 am
Jerry
June 30th, 2012
11:59 pm
Forsyth County may not have hoodrats and hoodlums from south of I-20, but there are definitely hoodrats, hoodlums, illegals and Latin American gangs and drug cartels moving up the Georgia 400 North Corridor with a heavy concentration of your favorite types of people in the City of Sandy Springs and a growing contingent in North Fulton County, especially within the City of Roswell.
Heck, I see street signs with the tags “SUR-13″ and “MS-13″ on them in some of the older more mature neighborhoods full of starter homes and rentals in Roswell off GA 140 on the westside of GA 400, so the undesirable activity of which you speak is a lot closer to Forsyth County than you think and will continue to creep through North Fulton and closer to the still somewhat exurban, but rapidly suburbanizing Forsyth County as with this being Metro Atlanta, localities like those in North Fulton and even in Forsyth are not necessarily known to turn down permits for commercial and residential overdevelopment like the kind that has once-exurban Gwinnett and Cobb counties on the verge of complete urbanization, especially with communities like Roswell and Alpharetta intentionally and purposefully attempting to become more urban and dense in nature.
Alpharetta, in particular, wants to become one of the next great job centers of the region to compete with the likes of Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, Cumberland and Perimeter Center, with a job cluster emerging along 400 between Mansell Road and Windward Parkway.
Forsyth may be still be a somewhat far-flung to experience the full effects of the type of urbanization that Cobb and Gwinnett counties are experiencing, but have no doubt that it is on its way to Forsyth County, as I’ve personally heard reports of developers eyeing the GA 400 interchanges at McFarland Pkwy, GA 141 and GA 20 for continued heavy commercial and dense multi-family development.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
July 1st, 2012
2:01 am
Jerry
June 30th, 2012
11:59 pm
{{{”I don’t care what Sandy Springs or any other city along 400 wants to preserve. The fact of the matter is that the road needs to be widened to allow us in Forsyth to get to and from work faster.”}}}
I know that you and many others in Forsyth don’t care what Sandy Springs or any other city along 400 wants to preserve along the right-of-way, but the fact-of-the-matter is that the type of large-scale widening of GA 400 that you seek is not necessarily ever going to come into fruition anytime soon, if ever, especially between south of I-285 through Buckhead to the I-85 merge where it is amazing that a new expressway was ever built through one of the most upscale residential neighborhoods in the entire nation.
Though, the good news for you is that GDOT has plans on the books to reconstruct the obsolete I-285 Top End/GA 400 Interchange and add a limited system of collector-distributor lanes to each side of GA 400 from I-285 to just north of the GA 400/Abernathy Road Interchange.
GDOT also has (long-term) plans to add at least an elevated reversible managed lane to the GA 400 North Corridor between I-285 and GA 20.
GDOT also has even longer-term plans to add a couple of travel lanes to each direction of GA 400 north of McFarland Parkway and extend the limited-access expressway portion of GA 400 north through the GA 53 junction in Dawsonville.
The bad news is that the plans to reconstruct the I-285 Top End/GA 400 Interchange appear in the list of projects to be funded through the T-SPLOST referendum which is increasingly more than likely to be voted down and severely-defeated at the polls by voters on July 31st.
There is also bad news that thelong-term plans to add at least an elevated reversible lane to GA 400 between I-285 and GA 20, widen GA 400 from 4 to 8 lanes north of McFarland Pkwy out to GA 53 and extend the expressway portion of GA 400 from where it currently ends at the GA 369 Junction in Coal Mountain up to the growing commercial area at the GA 53 Junction are totally unfunded as of now in large part due to the diminishing returns from the Georgia state gas tax and state laws that require transportation funding to be divided up equally amongst all of Georgia’s 12 Congressional Districts, despite the fact that Metro Atlanta is a major population center on the North American continent that has by far the highest population and overwhelmingly more transportation needs than any other district in the state.
Also, just as the politics of the Atlanta Region has been guided by automobile-dependent, automobile-loving, transit-adverse individuals in the suburbs like yourself (I can say that, because like you, I also love my vehicle and I also love good roads, but unlike you I also love trains and prefer a more-balance, though targeted multi-modal approach to this region’s transportation issues), the politics has also been very-heavily influenced transit-loving, transit-dependent anti-roadbuilding parties inside I-285 (as well as anti-roadbuilding and anti-transit types outside of I-285, affectionally known as B.A.N.A.N.A.s, which stands for Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Never Anytime).
Just as it is an agenda of many people to retard the growth and expansion of transit in the region, especially into their particular neck-of-the-woods, no matter how much it may actually be needed in this severely road infrastructure-challenged region, it is also the active agenda of many to completely retard the further expansion of the increasingly severely-challenged road network in the region, particularly by the pro-transit, anti-roadbuilding types inside of I-285, but also of those who live along heavily-residential roads that have become major two-lane thoroughfares because of the continued crushing population growth within the Atlanta Region.
It is the ongoing and intensifying conflict between the anti-transit types and the anti-roaders in which both sides have cancelled out each other and helped lead to total paralysis on the transportation planning front in which virtually no new major roads and no new transit lines have been built in Metro Atlanta since the 1990’s, which is bad because since the last stretch of expressway opened (the GA 400 Toll Road through Buckhead in 1993) the population of the Atlanta Region has grown by about roughly 2.7 million people and since the last stretch of rail transit line opened in 2000, the population of the Atlanta Region has grown by 1.7 million people.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
July 1st, 2012
2:20 am
Jerry
June 30th, 2012
11:59 pm
More good news for you is that Forsyth County plans to widen Bethelview Road from its current 2 lanes to a 4-lane partially-divided boulevard from just north of GA 400 at the GA Hwy 9 junction up to the GA Hwy 20 Intersection and also plans to widen Old Atlanta and Sharon Roads to 4 lanes from the Old Atlanta/McGinnis Ferry Rd intersection up to the GA 141/Sharon Road intersection.
Also, Forsyth County is not apart of the 10-county Atlanta Regional Commission area that will be voting on the Metro Atlanta T-SPLOST, so living in Forsyth County, you will not get to engage in this pending political disaster and vote on the Metro Atlanta list of projects.
Forsyth County will be voting on a list of projects for the Georgia Mountains region, which includes Banks, Dawson, Forsyth, Franklin, Habersham, Hall, Hart, Lumpkin, Rabun, Stephens, Towns, Union, and White counties.
Sorry, but Forsyth County is going to miss out on all of the fun of voting on the Metro Atlanta T-SPLOST that is an unmitigated political disaster in the making.
http://www.connectgeorgiamountains.org/
junbug
July 1st, 2012
4:38 am
TSPLOST is just another hand out to GDOT so they can hire more non-producers. Take a chop ax to the thousand of no-producers in the GDOT first.
Then tell the citizens the truth about TSPLOST which states 25% of the money will go into the counties general fund for larger govenmemt. NO, to more government!!!
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
July 1st, 2012
4:44 am
Cobb resident & voter
June 30th, 2012
11:31 pm
{{{”The TIA referendum is very unpopular in Cobb county. I plan to vote NO. We don’t want you to subsidize us at all. We don’t want rapid transit placed one mile into Cobb at the cost of nearly $1B.”}}}
It wasn’t the folks in the city that would have been subsidizing that line, it would have been Cobb County taxpayers that would have been subsidizing that extremely poorly-placed rail transit line as the Midtown-Cumberland light rail line was (is) slated to be funded with now what is $689 million dollars of Cobb County’s $1.2 billion proceeds of the regional T-SPLOST.
The amount of Cobb County proceeds that would have paid for the Midtown-Cumberland light rail line, of which as you mentioned, only one mile is in Cobb County, was originally tabbed to be $857 million until people in Cobb County raised hell and about $168 million or so was redirected to the proposed widening of Windy Hill Road to six lanes between Austell Rd and I-75 and proposed reconstruction of a separated-grade intersection at Windy Hill and Hwy 41/Cobb Parkway.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
July 1st, 2012
5:27 am
{{{”As a Cobb suburbanite whose employer is also in Cobb, I agree that if we wanted transit and a city lifestyle we should move to the city. We have NO interest in living in Atlanta nor even going to Atlanta for any reason other than to pass through on the occasional vacation trip. I like the suburbs and plan to stay here and don’t want you to pay an additional 1% sales tax to provide any transit for us.”}}}
While you don’t live in the City of Atlanta proper, by living in Cobb County you do still live an area that has grown into one of the five core urban counties (Fulton, DeKalb, Clayton, Cobb and Gwinnett) of the Greater Metro Atlanta region.
You may not live in the city, but you do live much closer than you think, both geographically and politically as Cobb County shares a boundary with Fulton County and the City of Atlanta in the Chattahoochee River and Cobb County is not quite nearly as completely suburban in the strictest sense as it was known to be in previous decades.
Like it, or not, you live in an increasingly urban community in Cobb County that is increasingly closely linked, geographically, politically and socially, to the City of Atlanta (see Mableton, Austell Rd, South Cobb Drive, South Cobb Pkwy, Spring Rd near Smyrna, Franklin Rd and Bentley Rd on the near-eastside of Marietta where a dead body is seemingly found every other week as examples of a Cobb County that has either urbanized or is rapidly-urbanizing).
I agree that an additional 1% sales tax is not the best way to this region’s transportation needs, especially at this point of such great and almost overwhelming need after decades of neglect by increasingly spectacularly incompetent state leaders.
But seeing as though that Cobb County has grown rapidly over the last five decades to become a heavily-populated community of nearly 700,000 residents (which is equivalent in population to the cities of Detroit, Baltimore, the District of Columbia, Boston, Charlotte and San Francisco) which is now an indispensible part of Metro Atlanta along with Fulton, DeKalb, Clayton and Gwinnett counties, there is no longer any choice but for transit (preferably properly-placed and properly-funded) to be a key part of the transportation conversation as Interstates 75, 285, 575 & 20 and US Hwy 41 are often severely-congested beyond capacity during peak traffic hours of the day, a situation that figures to get much worse if one of the busiest and fastest-growing seaports on the planet, the Port of Savannah, is expanded and generates even more crushingly heavy freight and cargo truck traffic as is expected.
Compounding matters is the fact that there is very little available right-of-way remaining along the Interstates to widen and expand them horizontally as has been done traditionally so the options for adding additional freeway capacity are limited both physically and politically as Metro Atlanta has seemingly reached a point where further substantial road-widening and road expansion seems to be no longer acceptable to the overall public, making increased transit (in an effective form) an option that is no longer negotiable.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
July 1st, 2012
6:10 am
{{{”If I had one traffic project to choose, it would be an east/west corridor from Cobb to Gwinnett north of I-285.”}}}
The state tried that concept over a decade ago and about 10 miles farther out as the wildly-unpopular Northern Arc and failed miserably to the point where an entire long-ruling political party (the Democrats) in part lost power over it and the now-ruling Republicans consider the consider the concept politically-radioactive.
If the East-West Corridor/Northern Arc concept did not work 10 miles farther to the north through land in exurban Bartow, Cherokee and Forsyth counties that at the time was still very sparcely-developed, there is very likely absolutely no chance that the concept of a Northern Arc would gain any traction through much more densely-developed, much more densely-populated and much more politically-powerful Cobb, North Fulton and Gwinnett counties, an area that is known to decide statewide elections.
Running a new expressway through those heavily-populated and extremely politically-powerful suburbs is a proposal that would be D.O.A. (Dead On Arrival) the second that the local news media got a hold of it and put it on the airwaves.
Your only remote hope for anything resembling an “East-West Corridor” between Cobb and Gwinnett counties would be a (long-overdue) widening of the existing surface thoroughfare GA Hwy 92 to six through lanes from the Old Hwy 5 (Canton Rd/Main St) intersection in Woodstock east over to the shopping area just before the Sandy Plains Road intersection where the road becomes six through lanes over to GA 400 as well as a widening of GA 140/Holcomb Bridge Road/Jimmy Carter Blvd to six through lanes from the Old Alabama Road intersection on the eastside of GA 400 in Roswell over to the Hwy 13/Buford Hwy intersection in Norcross where the road becomes six through lanes that are frequently completely gridlocked during rush hours.
Even as practical a concept as it may seem, the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc truck bypass concept is DEAD and it likely ain’t coming back anytime soon, if ever, mainly out of understandably justified fears that it would become sprawl and overdevelopment-inducing circular freeway that would be quickly-overrun by land spectulators and real estate developers who would endlessly and tirelessly push the type of commercial and high-density residential development that has once-exurban and suburban Cobb and Gwinnett counties increasingly looking like something out of Los Angeles.
See what I mean about severely-limited road infrastructure, both physically and POLITICALLY?
Eric
July 1st, 2012
7:59 am
The reasons mentioned above are valid. No less at issue is the matter of increasing taxes during a recession. Like Obamacare, now is not the time. Maybe later, but not now.
Eric
July 1st, 2012
7:59 am
I think people are also weary of pro-growth models which got us into this mess to begin with.
Political Discourse In These Cynical Times — Peach Pundit
July 1st, 2012
8:00 am
[...] Erick says he won’t vote for the TIA because he doesn’t trust GDOT. Jim Galloway writes that lack of trust is harming efforts to pass the TIA among voters in Fulton and Dekalb counties. No matter your [...]
catlady
July 1st, 2012
9:28 am
I’m pretty liberal (according to folks in my area of the state) but I will be voting against Tsplost. I note that it will not provide help to my county, that it will be “steak and shake” for developers and road-builders, and that it will allow the voters to continue to be lied to. It is the last part that is so troublesome to me. From county government wasting splost money to the state renegging on GA 400, those governing have shown themselves to be, at best, inept; at worst, they are lying thieves! From here on out I will vote NO to every splost and Constitutional amendment put in front of me. Why? Absolutely NO TRUST!
A Conservative Voice
July 1st, 2012
9:34 am
@Proud Voter
June 30th, 2012
1:57 pm
Uh, “A Conservative Voice,” where did you get this very wrong information? Where is the data to prove this one-third mess?
No data, Proud Voter……..and you know what?…..it hasn’t been done yet, so I can’t prove it; however, and I know after last Thursday I’m on thin ice, but I think I am still entitled to my opinion. But I will guarantee you this, if this tax is voted in, after five years the politicians will have already begun to talk about extending the tax another ten years because the progress of the projects has fallen behind and all are tremendously over budget. Guarantee you something else…..if and when the streetcar project is finished (it’s a big “IF”, proud voter) within two years of completion, it will be bankrupt, i. e., not enough money coming in to fund operating costs. That and the beltline project are two projects that will do absolutely nothing to improve Atlanta’s traffic…..
Everyone, remember to vote on July 31st and vote NONONONONONONONONONONO………this tax will do nothing to solve atlanta’s traffic problems……politicians just want your money…….remember, we are in an economic RECESSION……all increased taxes do is make the RECESSION worse.