Ga. Tech crime sparks NRA-backed push for campus guns

Jason Stubbs, left, of Georgia Students for Concealed Carry on Campus sets up a booth with Georgia Tech College Republicans' Andrew Mullins during a December debate on campus. John Spink, jspink@ajc.com.

Jason Stubbs, left, of Georgia Students for Concealed Carry on Campus sets up a booth with Georgia Tech College Republicans' Andrew Mullins during a December debate on campus. John Spink, jspink@ajc.com.

Nearly five years ago, a disturbed English major at Virginia Tech killed 32 of his fellow classmates and wounded a score more.

The campus massacre occurred at the height of that year’s session of the Georgia Legislature. A bill to rewrite the state’s gun laws — and overturn bans on where firearms could and could not be carried — was stopped in its tracks.

But every yin has its yang. The recent spate of robberies and assaults on or near the Georgia Tech campus near downtown Atlanta is about to unleash an equal and opposite reaction — a furious debate over the place of guns in public spaces long declared gunpowder-free.

Including, and perhaps especially, in college dormitories and classrooms.

Representatives of the National Rifle Association were in town and stopped at the state Capitol last week. They informed lawmakers that the gun rights group would make a major lobbying effort in Atlanta over the next two months.

A laundry list of targets includes the continued state ban on permitted, concealed weapons in houses of worship. The NRA also wants to strengthen recently passed legislation that stakes out non-secured areas of Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport as legitimate zones for concealed-carry.

Passage of a law to permit hunters to use silencers would be welcomed as icing on a large cake. Enthusiasts say the silencers — which would still require a federal license — would be a boon to neighbors of shootists. Silencers would also allow hunters to get off more than one shot when stalking herds of deer or feral pigs.

But it is the Board of Regents’ ironclad ban on firearms in dorms and campus buildings — long thought out of reach by gun rights activists — that will be the NRA’s primary object this year.

The Georgia Tech crime spree has the state’s top leaders rethinking regent policy. But let us be clear: Crime around Atlanta colleges isn’t something new. A Spelman College sophomore was killed in 2009 by a stray bullet. But the Atlanta University complex isn’t famous for the size or activity of its college Republican clubs. Georgia Tech is.

Gov. Nathan Deal and House Speaker David Ralston, in the opening days of the Legislature, made no commitments, but both said events require a more open-minded approach to the issue of guns on campus.

Carrying the ball in the House will be state Rep. Rich Golick, R-Smyrna, chairman of the Non-Civil Judiciary Committee. Golick said he intends to make sure something gets to the chamber floor for a vote.

“For me, the debate boils down to this — given that the university system simply cannot guarantee the safety of all students at all times, why should a 21-year-old, properly permitted student have less of a right to protect himself or herself in the event of a threat to their personal safety?” Golick said. “If a properly permitted female student has a baby and is pushing a stroller on campus, are we seriously going to deny her the ability to defend herself and her child in the event she is attacked?”

University officials might offer up different images. Perhaps one of gunplay during a drunken dormitory party. Or an army of befuddled campus cops, rushing to a Virginia Tech-like scene and trying to sort the armed bad guys from the armed good ones.

They might offer those pictures — but they don’t. The university system’s position is precarious, and so its officials prefer to wait for the legislation to show itself before they enter the public phase of argument.

Are there possible areas for compromise? Sure. Critics say that a gun ban on campuses is an advertisement that turns college students into easy prey. One suggestion heard this week would be to double or triple the penalties for crimes committed in firearm-free zones.

Another possibility would be the creation of a multitiered system of concealed weapons permits. Currently, permits are available to nearly anyone over 21 without a criminal record.
But another level of permit could require training in the handling of firearms — something more likely to be recognized by other states, which is important to those who carry across state lines.

Those with the permit requiring training might be allowed to pack on campus. Those without training might not not be.

Golick, whose House committee is likely to set the tenor for the debate, said he is maintaining an open mind when it comes to such proposals.

- By Jim Galloway, Political Insider

For instant updates, follow me on Twitter, or connect with me on Facebook.

116 comments Add your comment

This is Mrs. Norman Maine

January 14th, 2012
9:26 am

It’s very interesting that the NRA doesn’t give a care about the students of the Atlanta University Center when they are the victims of crime….which they have been long before the crimes at Ga Tech made headlines. But then again, neither does the AJC. Why the difference? Hmmmm, I wonder what it could be…….

There is no question that a group of people who are not fully matured yet should not be armed. Not. NO to the demands of the fanatical NRA. God protect us from armed zealots.

Jerome Horwitz

January 14th, 2012
9:36 am

What is needed is more effective campus policing. While the idea of allowing students to be armed has merit, remember the perp already has his weapon out. Do you think he is going to wait for you to pullyours? Also, does the person have the mindset to actually pull the trigger?

Better policing is the answer. Do we really want the wild west again?

MrLiberty

January 14th, 2012
9:37 am

The NRA is just one of many orgainzations in this country that correctly support the right of individuals to protect their lives and their property through the use of firearms and the right to have that protection with them at all times. It is typical that the media would mention that the NRA supports this measure as a means of further enhancing the devisiveness of the discussion. If say Jews for the Protection of Firearms Ownership were mentioned that would not get the same reaction (likely a different reaction) although I would doubt that that organization would be against the freedoms these students are fighting for. The same would hold true for Gun Owners of America, etc.

It is funny that the previous poster mentions “people who are not fully matured yet should not be armed.” I wonder if they bothered to put any thought into the fact that plenty of 18-22 years olds are fully armed and now killing people on behalf of the empire all over the globe courtesy of the US Army and Marines. As well, plenty of 18-22 years olds have other jobs that demand they carry a loaded firearm, etc.

You can be disillusioned into thinking that school is supposed to be some magical place free of violence, etc. but Tech is right in the middle of Atlanta, not isolated or protected by acres of land, etc. as many colleges are, and in this day and age, violence is probably more likely in such a location specifically due to the younger age and distractions of the folks in attendance.

Every human being deserves the right to protect their own life. It is disgusting that some, whether in the general public or in government feel that THEY have the right to deny someone that, but that is the current state of our society (and we are clearly paying the price for it). Let the students conceal carry. Tens of millions of citizens carry every day and the rate of violence associated with these individuals is FAR lower than the random acts of violence we see committed by police and other supposedly “responsible” folks who are allowed to carry guns.

David

January 14th, 2012
9:42 am

The only problem with doubling penalties is it doesn’t work on people with a mission to kill people! Those people are out to take as many people out of this world as possible before they take themselves out!

Students are of age to go to war for our country, carry guns (and trained to carry guns) in war, but not on campus? really? – Let’s remove this invitation to crime and allow concealed campus carry with the normal background checks, fingerprinting, etc BUT, let’s add mandatory training/certification in the use of weaponry.

D Right

January 14th, 2012
9:44 am

The NRA does want the Wild West but only where our precious white kids are likely to get hurt. I say ALL able-bodied, non-felon, non-insane people over the age of 18 should carry and have training to protect themselves. Police can take several minutes to arrive and by then it’s too late. Protect yourself.

jd

January 14th, 2012
9:47 am

Given the armed carjacking at the state Capitol – the first target should be to allow firearms in the Capitol!

Need a zero-based budgeting analysis of this legislation. Let’s see — cost of training police to ask for proper paper work before arresting suspect — $$$; cost of funeral for campus police shot while asking — $$$$$; endorsement of NRA — priceless

Paul

January 14th, 2012
9:52 am

Seems that most crimes around Ga Tech are off-campus. And don’t fall under BoR control. However, if you can’t carry the gun on campus, then how can you protect yourself walking home off campus?

Time for this outdated policy to end. College students have just as much right to protect themselves as anyone else.

Ron Paul For President 2102

January 14th, 2012
9:59 am

The thugs preying on the Tech students are there knowing that they will most likely be dealing with a young person without a weapon and possibly naive regarding their surroundings. I lived in Home Park for many years and we dealt with the bums and thugs regularly, but they did not progress to the level of violence you see lately nearly as often. This is a different world with the economy getting so bad and the poor getting poorer, violence is on the rise and the students and others should be prepared to deal with it, the police will not be there in time to help us, we must help ourselves.

Ashley

January 14th, 2012
9:59 am

If a eighteen year old can go to war and fire a artillery weapon, I have no problem with a student carrying a conceal weapon legally.. In my opinion if some ghetto thug who is usually about the same age as most college students, wants to rob and do harm to our future good citizen and workforce in Georgia, I say blow the piece of crap away, you won’t hear a peep out of me. Until the police department start out gunning the thugs and other low-lifes who don’t play by the rules. Allow all college students to have that right.

Karen

January 14th, 2012
10:01 am

I will send my kids to UGA just to spite the NRA and Wayne DE-Le PU

Mike

January 14th, 2012
10:20 am

Ashley probably thinks all folks outside of her neighborhood are “ghetto”.

If you want to have violence, bring a gun. Look at the recent hospital shooting in North Georgia. Guy with a permit, gets into a dispute with his wife and mom-in-law at the hospital. He kills both. Leave the guns at home. Folks just want to imagine it’s the wild west, but I bet the crime levels are minute.

SG

January 14th, 2012
10:37 am

If guns are allowed inside GT many faculty will quit and move to other universities and many prospective students, specially the good ones will not even apply. GT rankings, now among the top in engineering, will plummet. GT can think of other solutions such as advanced networks of security cameras and innovative emergency systems.

Mike Sanders

January 14th, 2012
10:39 am

I was at Georgia Tech in the early eighties and lots of guys had guns in the dorms. There were no incidents that I can remember involving students shooting someone. Lots of incidents where bad guys came on campus and shot or robbed a student. I started carrying a concealed weapon with me all the time after dark when I witnessed two kids get shot in the courtyard at the infamous Techwood dorm. I am in favor of a second tier of approval with training and drug test, etc which should be sufficient to allow concealed carry on campus by students over 21. The age requirement will eliminate most of the kids anyway.

Ashley

January 14th, 2012
10:43 am

@Mike….no I do not think all neighborhood are ghettos, but most of the crime being committed against college students are by pants on the ground, car-jacking black thugs who think having a gun makes them a man. As far as the shooting in N. Ga. this isn’t about gun ownership……its about a deeper problem ,domestic -abuse and how one selfish man decided he wouldn’t take no for an answer.

yellowdog.

January 14th, 2012
10:47 am

just what we need; another va tech in the making! i agree we need more campus police; our kids need protection and the school has that responsibility. saving a penny here and penny there by not hiring extra people will send the wrong message……man up GA Tech president and start doing your job. if it was your child in the same situation what would you do?

Eric

January 14th, 2012
10:57 am

If handguns are allowed at Tech, I won’t be enrolling my child there. Occasional crime is one thing, and part of living in downtown Atlanta. But guns everywhere and everybody on campus, no thanks!

chip

January 14th, 2012
11:05 am

This is Mrs. Norman Maine said: “There is no question that a group of people who are not fully matured yet should not be armed.”

Let’s be careful to discuss the real issues and not some straw man. Nothing in the proposed legislation changes WHO can be armed – it only changes WHERE. In order to get a firearms license, whether a student or not, one must be 21 years old.

In Atl

January 14th, 2012
11:06 am

Right now the situation is that by and large on the campus the people that obey the law are unprotected from the people who don’t obey the law and are armed. Like shooting fish in a barrel. The right to carry will change a lot of that. Anyone can Google statistics for conceal/carry laws and see that they are not abused and in fact reduce crime. Also, why isn’t the APD doing sting operations around Tech. Once the word gets out that they are doing that, it would definitely reduce the crime there.

This is Mrs. Norman Maine

January 14th, 2012
11:40 am

@Chip, cmon now. Let’s be real. This is just step one of the plan. Start by changing the rules on college campuses, next watch the outcry as they start complaining about how it’s not fair that a 21-year old is safe but an 18-year old is at the mercy of criminals. It’s NOT FAIR, they’ll say. It’s NOT LOGICAL. And some legislator owned by the NRA (currently 65% of the Georgia Legislature) will do just what their puppetmasters tell them. High schools will be next. Today, the where. Tomorrow, the who.

double

January 14th, 2012
11:41 am

Just get your permit and carry.Most will be over 21.Better tried by ? than carried by 6. As for the silincer part.most silencer ammunition would not be good for hunting.Would require different sighting in.

td

January 14th, 2012
11:47 am

Jerome Horwitz

January 14th, 2012
9:36 am

How often do the police prevent crime? There presence defers people for a short time but if people want to rob someone or harass someone then they will fin a way and the police are not going to prevent them from doing it.

This is Mrs. Norman Maine

January 14th, 2012
11:52 am

@Ashley, thanks for lowering the level of debate. That’s not hard to do here anyway but we can always count on someone like you making that extra effort.

I went over to the Ga Tech website to see why the hysteria about crime at Ga Tech (because they certainly aren’t alarmed about crime at other college campuses in the city) and the urgent need to turn the area into the wild, wild west. Imagine my surprise to see that rates of reported crime are down significantly over the past 3 years. What crime spree are they talking about? It’s pretty clear there is no crisis here. No, the NRA with the help of the AJC’s reporters are using this as another means to further their agenda to arm everyone from toddlers to the blind at the expense of all of our safety.

In Atl

January 14th, 2012
11:54 am

@Ashley, thanks for lowering the level of debate.
Ms. Maine, you’ve done a great job of that all by yourself. Most on here are trying to post reasonable positions while you’re the one throwing stones and screaming about agenda.

yuzeyurbrane

January 14th, 2012
11:55 am

Just what we need, a bunch of immature college kids packing heat. What fun we will have at drunken frat parties or drunken alums tailgating. Nothing like a mix of alcohol, drugs, testosterone and guns for a peaceful and friendly environment.

MrLiberty

January 14th, 2012
12:03 pm

As for the so-called Wild West, in Frontier Violence: Another Look, by W. Eugene Hollon he notes:

•In Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year.
•In Abilene, supposedly one of the wildest of the cow towns, not a single person was killed in 1869 or 1870.

Zooming forward over a century to 2007, a quick look at Uniform Crime Report statistics shows us the following regarding the aforementioned gun control “paradise” cities of the east:

•DC – 183 Murders (31 per 100,000 residents)
•New York – 494 Murders (6 per 100,000 residents)
•Baltimore – 281 Murders (45 per 100,000 residents)
•Newark – 104 Murders (37 per 100,000 residents)

It doesn’t take an advanced degree in statistics to see that a return to “wild west” levels of violent crime would be a huge improvement for the residents of these cities.

Just one of thousands of examples of how the Wild West was not the “everyone shooting it out in the streets” fantasy crap that Hollywood likes to portray. Let’s all say this together – that is the MOVIES, reality is NOT the movies.

Do some research before you just start spewing platitudes.

And as for policing, armed private citizens committ far less violence against others than to “responsible” police officers. We are already a police state in this country. There is no reason to turn our campuses into one too. If every potential robber thought that his victim was potentially armed he/she might think twice. Statistics on concealed carry laws all over the country bear this out. Even the unarmed would benefit from the “uncertainty” that this would add to every encounter with a potential victim.

Buckhead Boy

January 14th, 2012
12:29 pm

It seems to me that reports of firearms used defensively by private citizens are miniscule as opposed to those detailing their misuse in accidental and purposeful (criminal) shootings. If that be so, wouldn’t promoting the proliferation of gun ownership result in much more harm than good?

poltergeist

January 14th, 2012
12:30 pm

hey Mrs. Maine, go tell the Tech studen stll at Shepherd Center all about the lowered crime rates …. folks we aren’t dealing with a civilized college town here in which an armed robbery is a big deal. This isn’t Virginia Tech, either………this is the most corrupt, crime-ridden cesspool of a city in the entire South, and it any organized effort to combat the crime (rate) is met with loud vociferations of fighting racism and watching out the man don’t lock up all the children. If I had a child who was smart enough to get into GaTech, we’d be scholarshipin’ out of state.

Lea

January 14th, 2012
12:33 pm

I have my opinions about guns on campuses, but my point actually has nothing to do with that. I feel the urge to point out this one very important fact:

Almost all of the recent incidents dealing with robbery and violence at or around GT have occurred against victims who were walking ALONE and for the most part in the dark. WHY?

GT provides many many alternatives to being alone. I went to GT and was a member of the student housing staff. The police will give you a free escort with no questions asked. There are organized groups that leave the library at night TOGETHER.. GT constantly promotes the Stingerette system. They are there for the student’s safety. They not only run when the buses stop running, but will take you to a specific location, as well as are not limited to on campus stops.

Why are these kids stupid enough to walk around at 4 in the morning with their iphones in hand, headphones in, and oblivious to their surroundings. At that point, you are advertising that you make a good victim. I don’t care if you are in the middle of Atlanta, Athens or Kennesaw. You do not walk around at night without taking note of your surroundings and doing everything to ensure your safety.

These kids MAKE themselves a target and until that is addressed, guns aren’t going to help curb the crime.

Tech Grad

January 14th, 2012
12:38 pm

I got out of Tech in 2009 and received all the crime/robbery notices. Just about all of them involve some sort of 3 AM solo walk from campus (library) to Home Park, the Georgia Tech student ghetto. Not smart. Tech campus is pretty safe but that bubble doesn’t extend to Home Park and all the criminals across the tracks know this. I’d park there and walk to class but only during the daytime. Honestly I don’t think allowing kids to carry guns to class will make much of a difference at all, as maybe a fraction of a percentage of the student body would actually be excited enough to carry. As for the Vine City set, I don’t think they are too worried about whether or not their favorite targets are armed or not….

Jackie

January 14th, 2012
1:31 pm

By all means, let’s blame the victims.

td

January 14th, 2012
1:37 pm

Lea

January 14th, 2012
12:33 pm

“Why are these kids stupid enough to walk around at 4 in the morning with their iphones in hand, headphones in, and oblivious to their surroundings. At that point, you are advertising that you make a good victim. I don’t care if you are in the middle of Atlanta, Athens or Kennesaw. You do not walk around at night without taking note of your surroundings and doing everything to ensure your safety.”

I am sure we are on the opposite ends of the gun debate but I will tell you that I agree 100% with the above. Everyone must take responsibility of there actions.

Darvocet spending

January 14th, 2012
1:43 pm

Just carry concealed anyway, that’s what we did years ago.

SBinF

January 14th, 2012
1:46 pm

Why yes, the problem is that we need MORE guns in society. If we had more guns, there would be less gun violence.

That logic is bulletproof.

Darvocet spending

January 14th, 2012
1:48 pm

SBinF

January 14th, 2012
1:46 pm

Why yes, the problem is that we need MORE guns in society. If we had more guns, there would be less gun violence.

That logic is bulletproof.

This doesn’t change the amount of guns, it changes the amount of people authorized to carry them in certain locations

Real Athens

January 14th, 2012
1:52 pm

In 2011 GOP members of the U.S. House of Representatives introduced: 44 bills relating to abortion; 99 focused on the practice of religion; 71 regarding familial relationships; 36 concerning marriage; 67 under the context of firearms and gun control; 522 relating to taxation and (surprise) 455 on Investigations of the Obama administration.

What about the jobs?

JamieNAtlanta

January 14th, 2012
1:57 pm

Allow them to carry firearms on campus if they have taken a course on firearm safety. Blow those thugs away that are robbing attacking students at GA Tech!!!!

sheepdawg

January 14th, 2012
2:13 pm

another digression step by the right wing sociopaths, eventually we’ll revert all the way back to roman blood sports. armed engineering student vs. ATL thug in a shoot out to the death, tickets available, bring your own body armor….
bazookas and flame throwers for “sport” hunting to compliment the silencers…..
what a bunch of f ing imbecils !!

Vic

January 14th, 2012
2:16 pm

Yeah, let’s all bring guns to a kegger or perhaps a tailgate at a major University – I’m sure that will turn out well!

View From Midtown

January 14th, 2012
2:31 pm

Why do all you gun fetishists fell the need to stroke your weapons everywhere in public? It’s one thing to do it in your own home, but we don’t need you shooting off in public places putting other people in danger while you try to live out your Rambo fantasies.

Jason Stubbs

January 14th, 2012
2:32 pm

From the most recent year reported by Texas, which keeps track of all concealed license holders in their state, less than 2/10 of 1% (0.1541 to be exact) of (all) convictions in the state involved people with a CHL (equivalent to the Georgia Weapon License). Here is the link: http://tinyurl.com/4lxzu47
Overall crime may be low on campuses nationwide but I guess it’s okay to accept one rape or robbery or murder as long as it is not your child, right?!
For more information, find us on Facebook or contact us at: contactus@gas4ccc.org

Leonard

January 14th, 2012
2:34 pm

If the robbers were illegally parked on campus for the length of time they were committing their robbery, they most certainly would find swift justice with their get-a-way car booted. If people this age can carry guns in combat, then they are responsible enough to carry for self protection. Stiffer sentences wouldn’t deter these thugs, and where would we find the additional prison space in any event? Perhaps Ga. Tech could sponsor a shooting club that would teach proper marksmanship and firearms safety, then students and staff could be screened and allowed to carry if they already have a conceal carry permit. University rifle teams and ROTC pistol teams are not unheard of on campuses, you know.

nansei

January 14th, 2012
2:40 pm

this is totally a u.s. attitude i’m reading here . as a foreigner with a daughter at georgia tech, i predict there will be a drop in future international enrollments here. at 20k tuition a year it doesn’t take too many to hurt you yankees at the governor’s capitol as well as ga tech itself.. sorry, we foreigners don’t carry guns and don’t have an IRA. The shot of some Indian student holding my daughter at gunpoint to promote his sexy advances is shocking. don’t say it won’t happen, it only takes one!. is this what you call liberty?”

[...] Looks like the NRA is going to bat for the right of Tech students to pack heat on campus. Georgia Tech crime sparks an NRA-backed push for guns on campus | Political Insider [...]

Cobb Republican

January 14th, 2012
2:50 pm

I wouldn’t be surprised if the NRA pushes to add a MANDATED Training, since they are the largest firearm training organization in the US. Mandated training means more money in thier pocket

hoot

January 14th, 2012
3:00 pm

this is a kacim reed and his team’s problem, and theirs alone. has anyone seen what kind of cost it would take to police these schools properly? that’s the problem.

the republicans and thee nra have a problem, students at georgia tech can’t carry guns. the students and we parents have a problem, our students are getting robbed, hurt and worse. solving the first problem won’t solve the second. i asked my daughter if she had seen a pregnant student pushing a stoller with a baby to class or at the student center. she just called me an old fool. that puts me in the category of the author of this ignorant editor pablum and that Golick weirdo who should just stay in Smyrna and try again for his GED. both could use some higher education. where is kacim reed on this?

jd

January 14th, 2012
3:15 pm

Let’s apply some logic here.

If the kids were responsible, they would have called the GT escort service for a ride home. They would have been safe.

So, the same folks without enough sense to call for an escort, will be able to handle weapons responsibly?

And who will pay for the gun safes when the kids go into labs that cannot allow weapons (fed homeland security rules?)

Jason Stubbs

January 14th, 2012
3:27 pm

jd

January 14th, 2012
3:15 pm

Let’s apply some logic here.

If the kids were responsible, they would have called the GT escort service for a ride home. They would have been safe.

So, the same folks without enough sense to call for an escort, will be able to handle weapons responsibly?

And who will pay for the gun safes when the kids go into labs that cannot allow weapons (fed homeland security rules?)
What rules are you speaking of related to what types of labs?

The gun storage might be a good idea in the dorms or centrally located areas where students (over the age of 21 and who posess a GWL) are restricted due to certain federal regulations, which need to be considered as well. How much have the no weapons allowed signs at Post Offices stopped armed robberies?

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will crush the heads of the perverted New World Order integrationist crowd and their devilish black minions

January 14th, 2012
5:32 pm

Every patriotic right thinking American knows college students should be allowed to have concealed weapons to protect themselves on college campuses, churches, airports, etc. But I’m not sure if the National Rifle Association is the right organization to take on the task of reestablishing our inalienable rights. Unfortunately, the NRA has a history of compromising our sacred rights with white, blue, and black collar criminals.

But I could be prejudging my brothers and sisters in the NRA due to the fact that I’m a card carrying member of Gun Owners of America… Although it is common knowledge throughout Washing DC that GOA is the only no-compromise of our inalienable rights gun lobby in Washington DC.

Amen?

gg

January 14th, 2012
5:40 pm

it would be a better solution to eradicate the ghettos surrounding colleges and force those living there out into the rural areas. let the cities belong to those willing to work

Ross

January 14th, 2012
5:45 pm

As a professor all I can say is what an insane, dangerous and very scary idea. The NRA are consistant (I will give them that ) fools. Didn’t some state after having a NRA “moment” allow guns in bars as long as the gun owner doesn’ t drink? Yea right!
Ross