Savannah congregation that revolted over gay bishop must forfeit 18th century building
The Georgia Supreme Court has ruled that a Savannah congregation of a 278-year-old church that revolted over the affirmation of a gay bishop will have to give up the historic building to the national Episcopal church.
This undated file photo shows Christ Church of Savannah, founded in 1733, in Savannah, Ga. The Georgia Supreme Court voted six to one in a decision released Monday to uphold a lower court's October 2009 ruling confirming the national Episcopal Church's claim to the historic institution. AP/Savannah Morning News
From a summary issued this morning:
Christ Church was founded in 1733, when English General James Oglethorpe designated the land on which the church stands as a place of worship. The church received title to the building by land grants from the royal government in 1758 and post-Revolution state legislature in 1789. In 1823, Christ Church co-founded the Episcopal Diocese of Georgia and formally joined the national Episcopal Church.
In 2007, after the national Episcopal Church affirmed its first openly gay bishop in New Hampsire, 87 percent of the Savannah congregation voted to cut off its affiliation with the Georgia Diocese and join an Anglican diocese in Uganda.
The Georgia Bishop recognized the minority faction, including its rector, wardens and vestry, as the rightful leaders of Christ Church who named themselves “Christ Church Episcopal.” However, the majority faction, which called themselves “Christ Church in Savannah,” refused to give up the property.
The Georgia Diocese and national Episcopal Church then sued the local congregation, seeking a court declaration that the church’s historic building and property on Bull Street, worth nearly $3 million, as well as three other parcels of property titled in the name of Christ Church, were held in trust for the benefit of the national church.
Lower courts had ruled in favor of the national organization, with the state Court of Appeals pointing out that Episcopalians have a hierarchical denomination ruled by bishops rather than one controlled by congregations.
The 45-page decision was written by Justice David Nahmias. Superior Court Judge Phillip Brown of Macon, filling in for Jusice George Carley, was the only dissenter:
“The majority ….reaches an unjust result that is contrary to law in many ways,” Brown writes in his 96-page dissent. The local congregation “has spent large amounts of time and money to prevent the National Church from wrongfully taking [its] property through judicial action without the National Church having any document that qualifies as a title document under Georgia law.
How else can we fairly describe the National Church’s conduct other than an attempt to take [the local church’s] property without paying for it.”
- By Jim Galloway, Political Insider
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88 comments Add your comment
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
1:30 pm
This is really a shame it seems like there should have been some way to resolve this situation. It was my understanding that the National Church has refused to negotiate in good faith and wants to take the property as a way of penalizing the local group. I realize the issue of Homosexuality is dividing many organizations, but it seems that they should have handled it better.
rod
November 21st, 2011
1:33 pm
Now. Get off the property. You decided to secede and now you must leave the property. You knew the rules. As many like to say rules are rules HAHA
Phil Lunney
November 21st, 2011
1:37 pm
There is a way out, the local congregation can pay $3 Million and keep the building or rejoin the National Organization. As they say, elections have consequences. If the congregation truly voted their conscience, then come up with the money, if you wanted to make a statement, you have done that, now rejoin the National Organization or move out and find another Church building.
GaBlue
November 21st, 2011
1:43 pm
TAX THE CHURCHES!
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
1:46 pm
“There is a way out, the local congregation can pay $3 Million and keep the building”
It was my understanding that the National Organization would not accept that and had vowed to never allow the breakaway groups to have the property.
honested
November 21st, 2011
1:54 pm
Bad things can happen when you anoint yourself as ‘arbiter of the appropriate’.
Give the nice church it’s building and go away.
PS, stop wasting taxpayers court time on religious disputes.
Bad Guy
November 21st, 2011
2:12 pm
Certainly, this should be resolved. The church should offer the property for sale at market rates if the congregation could find financing. Surely an organization that was “all inclusive” would want others to continue to worship in the santuary they grew up in.
It would be the Christian thing to do….
Bad Guy
November 21st, 2011
2:12 pm
Sanctuary
Taylor Beattis
November 21st, 2011
2:17 pm
Well, the local congregation clearly wanted to make a statement by joining a diocese in Uganda, a country that imprisons gay people and hounds them with physical violence. Clearly the local congregation thought that Uganda best represented their Christian values. So now, the local congregation can ask the Ugandans to pay for a new building. Better yet, perhaps the congregants can relocate to Uganda to worship with their fellow brothers in Christ. They can all go hunting for gays after Sunday service.
changed
November 21st, 2011
2:21 pm
I am a former life-long Episcopalian who nows attends a Baptist church. Had enough of bishops and their liberal agenda.
Matthew
November 21st, 2011
2:21 pm
This is a good decision. Coming from a conservative state like Georgia I didn’t expect it.
The local church decided to pick this fight in the first place — and for what? Because a bishop in New Hampshire was appointed who happens to have a male partner??
Most of these people have never even been to New Hampshire.
Simply put, they wanted to make a political statement to justify their homophobia..
And really, UGANDA??
My my — some people are really terrified of change, aren’t they?
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
2:26 pm
“Surely an organization that was “all inclusive” would want others to continue to worship in the santuary they grew up in.”
“We can’t sell to an organization that wants to put us out of business,” said Bishop Jefferts Schori, who added that her job is to ensure that “no competing branch of the Anglican Communion impose on the mission strategy” of the Episcopal Church. Indeed she has no complaint with Muslims, Baptists or barkeepers buying Episcopal properties—only fellow Anglicans.
No, I think the all inclusive Episcopal Church only recognizes your freedom if you walk lockstep with their policies. They have set aside twenty million to prosecute these cases as a way of punishing the traditional Anglicans who do not buy into their new Universalist agenda.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203476804576614932308302042.html
Sorry if the link does not work sometimes a password is required.
suibne
November 21st, 2011
2:33 pm
….and you want to know why the dialog is over between the right and the left. What part of “the congregation does not want a gay leader…” do you not get? BECAUSE HE IS GAY. So for you that indicates they are somehow archaic. You? You are merely another sample of what has happened to family values in America.
suibne
liberalefty
November 21st, 2011
2:35 pm
homophobic bigotry …gotta love georgia
Norman
November 21st, 2011
2:49 pm
this is just-God hates hate-now they have no home to worship-may they all rot and die-praise God
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
2:50 pm
“homophobic bigotry …gotta love georgia”
Funny how easy it is to just throw out some hyperbole and dismiss an otherwise complicated issues. Regardless of how hard liberals try to convince everyone most Christians do not hate homosexuals or really have an issue with them living their lives as they see fit. What many in the Episcopal Church are concerned about is a Church Hierarchy that no longer adheres to Christian beliefs, but has adopted a form of Universalism.
10Cent
November 21st, 2011
2:52 pm
1 Cor 6:1-7
Big Gay News » Savannah Congregation that Revolted Over Gay Bishop Must Forfeit Historic Church
November 21st, 2011
2:53 pm
[...] Read the full story from the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Share: [...]
liberalefty
November 21st, 2011
2:53 pm
what christian beliefs. money talks bs walks. this is about money. if they dont wanna be a part of the national organization then they should vacate the property .
GaBlue
November 21st, 2011
2:54 pm
“What part of “the congregation does not want a gay leader…” do you not get?
Uh…. the congregation didn’t have a gay leader. The congregation was mad because they could not dictate the “values” of a congregation in New Hampshire. They CHOSE to cut themselves off, and now they’re whining that the gubmint should step in and “award” them what belongs to the organization they chose to leave. Wah wah wah…. Poor babies can’t get any bullies to bully on their behalf.
Becky
November 21st, 2011
3:09 pm
I heard the existing church is going to be converted to a gay nightclub!!!!
Rock me like a Herman Cain
November 21st, 2011
3:12 pm
Imprisoning gays? I’m all for that. When elected President I will chase them right back into the closet or prison. Their choice. Because God created America and we know God does not love gays like he does true, Red-State Christian Americans.
Oh, and I did not have settlements with that woman.
Actually studied canon law
November 21st, 2011
3:18 pm
The local congregation does not have a legal leg to stand on. The Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church USA clearly and unequivocally state that all Church buildings and property are joint property of the local Diocese and the National Church.
The language is totally unambiguous, and the one judge who dissented is making stuff up, not actually reading the words.
Ol' Timer
November 21st, 2011
3:25 pm
Some of these good Christian folk just can’t come to grips with the fact that there are gay people in the world that have rights just like everybody else. The key to peace for these good folks is to just GET OVER IT!
If they had the IQ of a rock they’d understand that these gay folk are what they are — and the preponderance of evidence is the the Good Lord make them that way.
They need to go to the Almighty Complaint Department and talk to the Boss about their problem with the folks. And, take a look at the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus said, “Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these my children, you have done it unto me.”
Katie Murphy
November 21st, 2011
3:41 pm
Once again bigotry gets a kick in the butthole. Its as simple as that. But re the battle , what else would you expect from a part of the country whose culture is that of slavery,, KKKK, and segregation.
And always needs to have someone to demonize, to make themselves feel better.
Rockerbabe
November 21st, 2011
3:53 pm
Private property is, well, private property and the owners (the National Episcopal Church)want their property back. Renting property for a long period of time (other than a rent to own contract) does not give the renter any ownership of said property. I suggest those parishoners who do not like the edits of the national church, find another place to worship that will cater to your bigotry.
That’s what use secular or recovering catholics have to do. . .so buck up and find another church. I’m sure there are plenty out there that will allow you to call yourself “christian” while maintaining your judgements and prejudices.
Hollis
November 21st, 2011
3:53 pm
GAYS rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In Atl
November 21st, 2011
3:53 pm
The usual suspects pop up to tell anyone who doesn’t approve of homosexual behavior that they’re a bigot – or some other pejorative term. I guess name calling is okay if you’re liberal. This is a very complicated case; but suffice it to say that in recent years the national Episcopal Church decided to adopt something called the Dennis Canon, which basically took ownership of every church. Really a power grab, especially since these churches financially support the national church – not the other way around. And what’s really sad is that our presiding bishop has made it clear in actual sworn testimony that she’d rather have the buildings become vacant than to sell them to the churches who want to break away. What a lovely leader and role model she is.
edna depue
November 21st, 2011
3:59 pm
Isn’t David Nahmias an Egyptian? Wonder if he is a Muslim, too.
duke
November 21st, 2011
4:01 pm
This is one of many reasons why all truly Protestant churches recognize the sovereignty of local congregations. The main issue is the conscience of the individual believer with regard to religious doctrine, the duty and right of each individual believer to obey the Word of God. The Word condemns homosexuality as a sin; if the national church leaders contradict the Word of God, believers are duty-bound to obey the Word. But this case shows that failure to follow this fundamental principle creates unjust situations even in regard to secular law. Following the religious principle would also produce what is clearly the correct legal result. The national church has no legitimate title under secular law, and no ecclesiastical authority under religious law.
Savannah congregation that revolted over gay bishop must forfeit 18th century building – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) - Savannah News Up to the Minute - Your Savannah Daily
November 21st, 2011
4:02 pm
[...] Story brought to you by Savannah GA – Bing News [...]
What if?
November 21st, 2011
4:04 pm
What if the gay bishop had not been allowed and the New Hampshire membership leaves the church? Would those in Savannah be out front in protest of the New Hampshire folks losing their church property in the same situation?
findog
November 21st, 2011
4:06 pm
So if my local Catholic church decides they want to revert to the original Jewish faith, as long as they pay lawyers a lot of money Judge Brown says we can keep the church? Can the local southern Baptist church spin off to Methodist and take the land and church with them to the new denomination; or does this only apply when GAYS are involved?
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
4:13 pm
“Can the local southern Baptist church spin off to Methodist and take the land and church with them to the new denomination”
Sure they own the building, so who could stop them? The SBC does not own local Church buildings, so the local Church can do as they please.
Ben
November 21st, 2011
4:16 pm
Kudos to the locals. So they took their building away, so what? Their real goal was to force feed them homosexuality, and that obviously failed. So either start a new church down the street, or join with another conservative Protestant denomination. It’s just a building. Let them have it. See how long they want to keep it open with little or no local money coming in to support it. Buy it later for less.
DannyX
November 21st, 2011
4:19 pm
“The Word condemns homosexuality as a sin;”
Of course churches have completely disregarded the the New Testament when it comes to divorce. Divorce is a CHOICE. Most divorces are not allowed according to Jesus himself. The ones that are allowed mean that one person was being unfaithful and committed adultery. The New Testament says that divorce is contrary to God’s will, and that remarriage following divorce constitutes adultery.
Why should gays be excluded and judged harshly when half of all Christian marriages end in divorce and Christian laws on remarriage are ignored? In fact Jesus said nothing about homosexuality but has plenty to say about divorce.
You can’t defend your family values while giving a big pass to pop sin, divorce.
Smoke
November 21st, 2011
4:21 pm
So far the courts have said the national church is legally and legitimately right under secular law, and the national connectional church determines the ecclesiastical authority. Southern Baptist are one of the few that have a go-it-alone, make rules with bias knee jerk thoughts using the Bible as a smoke screen. Stuff like women can’t be ministers, and the Bible said that white men are to rule over all other beings.
Former Episcopalian
November 21st, 2011
4:30 pm
I’m a dues paying member of the Libertarian Party and I support Gay rights in Secular law,but church law is different.The same people who called themselves open minded called me a bigot for my opposition to the ordination of gay clergy. I will always consider myself an Anglican,but I’m glad to have the Episcopal church in my rear view mirror.
In Atl
November 21st, 2011
4:31 pm
Danny, going to the divorce straw man. Typical. Next comes the shellfish argument, I suppose. Christ also never mentioned beastiality or incest by name. His admonitions were general and were consistent with those of the Old Testament. Proclivities to certain behaviors may truly not be a choice in some cases, but some have more of a burden to strive to overcome their brokenness and be acceptable in God’s sight.
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
4:31 pm
It’s just a building. Let them have it.
Mmmmmm…sour grapes are tasty, aren’t they?
DannyX
November 21st, 2011
4:37 pm
“Next comes the shellfish argument, I suppose.”
Nope, the words of Jesus himself, I specially referred to the New Testament. Why have Christians given themselves a huge waiver on divorce?
Why should gays fear God when the church doesn’t fear divorce? Hypocrites.
DannyX
November 21st, 2011
4:38 pm
“but some have more of a burden to strive to overcome their brokenness and be acceptable in God’s sight.”
What a crock. You either take the Bible literally in all areas or you don’t.
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
4:42 pm
“Why should gays fear God when the church doesn’t fear divorce?”
Who says the Church does not denounce divorce? I hear it mentioned as a negative matter quite frequently at the Churches I attend and the material I read. Just because a number of folks who identify as Christian are living in sin does not mean the Church accepts it.
findog
November 21st, 2011
4:47 pm
SAWB, but they allow divorced members to remain while kicking out gays who come out of the closet
DannyX
November 21st, 2011
4:47 pm
What church do you know that forbids divorced people from being members? Not many that I know of. How many allow remarriage? How many ban gays?
Look at Newt, the proud Catholic, 3 times divorced, now the defender of marriage.
findog
November 21st, 2011
4:48 pm
twice divorced, unless you’ve heard that blond #3 is on the way out
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
4:59 pm
“SAWB, but they allow divorced members to remain while kicking out gays who come out of the closet”
Yes, a lot of Churches have failed in handling of the issue of divorce, but you might be surprised that many Churches do address the issue. The first thing to remember about divorce is that many of the victims of divorce are guilty of no sin. If a husband cheats on his wife and she gets a divorce there is no reason she should not be in full fellowship with the Church. If the husband then realizes later on that his adultery and divorce were sins and repents the Church should accept him.
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
5:07 pm
“How many ban gays?”
I am afraid that way too many probably do or would if they really knew how many gay people are probably in their congregations. This is a very difficult issue for a lot of people and simply calling us bigots does everyone a disservice. Many people like me have agonized over this issue and I myself have adopted a sort of Christian Libertarianism related to this and many other issues. Personally what Ben & Jerry do in their own home is no concern of mine and I believe they have that freedom. I also believe that freedom does not come from government, but from God. However, I also believe the Church has the freedom and the duty to attempt to apply the teachings of the scripture as consistently and kindly as possible.
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
5:09 pm
Who says the Church does not denounce divorce?
Somehow they just can’t be arsed to do anything about it aside from saying naughty-naughty. But let some church in New Hampshire ordain a gay men and they run to Uganda, the land of the Lord’s Army and f**king babies to cure AIDS. Nice that they found people who share their values.
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
5:15 pm
Well, don’t worry too much I believe Omama is sending Special Forces in to kill them all.
DannyX
November 21st, 2011
5:20 pm
“If the husband then realizes later on that his adultery and divorce were sins and repents the Church should accept him.”
Of course that is not what Jesus said. You want a literal translation of the Bible on homosexuality but claim all these waivers when it affects the majority of church members. Can’t kick out the big money donors.
In fact most churches position on divorce has evolved, use to be that divorced people were treated like gays in churches. Man has changed the laws to suit their own “sins.” Divorce in the Catholic church is new. Scapegoating gays is for hypocrites.
Look at the difference in reactions to divorce and gay issues. You never ever see the same kind of judgmental reaction from Christians when a Christian couple divorces. No throwing stones, no hysterical “family values” rants, no “you’re going to Hell. A blog on gay subjects will result in hundreds of posts, you would never see a blog started with the same judgmental defenders of the Bible over a divorce.
What do you not understand about “Until death do us part?” Divorce is a CHOICE!
HCCynic
November 21st, 2011
5:24 pm
I agree with Ben; let the national denomination have the building and the bills that go with it. i realize we are talking about Savannah and the natives down there are extremely shallow and prideful about their historic district, but, in the end, its only a building.
To the rebutted congregation, you stood by your convictions and you fought the fight, but the court has ruled. Now, “render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasar’s” and move on with your religious life. Start a new congregation, or join another, either way you are free from the agenda pushing national Episcopal church.
My fear is that if you continue the fight for the building, you will simply paint yourself as “materialistic” and in so doing, you will lose the testimony of a faithful doctrine, and the respect you have earned from so many conservative evangelicals.
To all, Be of strong faith and good cheer,
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
5:27 pm
I believe Omama is sending Special Forces in to kill them all.
Good. For more than 20 years these wonderful christians have been killing, raping, and torturing people for Jeebus while they try to establish their theocracy. I hope those SF guys feel the need for self defense quite often.
DannyX
November 21st, 2011
5:29 pm
“…and the respect you have earned from so many conservative evangelicals.”
Why are conservative evangelicals divorcing like crazy?
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
5:34 pm
No, I believe Jesus always accepted people when they repented of their sin. The important part is acknowledging that their behavior is wrong and stopping that behavior.
Anyway, we are off topic. The National Church had the legal right to the property, but the local Church had the moral right to it. The National Church used the Courts to “stick it” to the local Church. A lot of folks think that’s cool because they really like to do some Christian Hating. Well, no problem we’ve been dealing with it for a few thousand years and no reason to expect it to stop now.
In Atl
November 21st, 2011
5:46 pm
Danny, you insist on continuing your straw man argument. Fine. Divorce is not viewed favorably by any church I know of. It’s a symptom of our fallen nature. Nobody celebrates it, holds it up as holy or as a healthy thing. But celebrating and blessing is exactly what some in the Episcopal church seek to do with same-sex relationships. Elevating something sinful is abhorrent to a vast number of parishioners. And I defy you to name any Episcopal church who has run anyone out for being gay. I’m a lifelong Episcopalian and have only seen people treated with dignity, regardless of their personal choices.
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
5:48 pm
we’ve been dealing with it for a few thousand years and no reason to expect it to stop now.
Where would you like your christian persecution fainting couch? Is the corner OK?
In Atl
November 21st, 2011
5:51 pm
Aquagirl, could you be any nastier? In every blog I’ve ever seen you post in your comments are consistently condescending, smug and add little or nothing to the conversation. You must be a very unhappy person.
catherine
November 21st, 2011
5:58 pm
” I guess name calling is okay if you’re liberal”
why is it that some decry name calling by calling names? Hypocrites. These dinosaurs can get another church. Uganda kills gays. They believe that God would choose among his beloved children who can hate and be hated, who can kill and be killed for hatred. What sad asses these fools are. Boy are they going to be surprised some day to go to God and find out he’s not amused at all. What good father would be?
Bob
November 21st, 2011
6:02 pm
@In Atl…great post my friend. Watergirl and her cronies have all the answers about every topic including why everyone else’s opinion is wrong.. Too bad they weren’t selected for the Congressional spending cuts panel.
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
6:03 pm
“Where would you like your christian persecution fainting couch? Is the corner OK?”
Sorry, I know it is taboo in proper society to mention the fact that a lot of folks like to beat up on the followers of Christ. The funny thing is I know I fall short of his example every day, but it is nice that you allow me to post here since so many of you are perfect.
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
6:03 pm
Aquagirl, could you be any nastier?
Well, I could make a special effort just for you….if you’re a hypocrite who tapdances around the disconnect of singling out gays for your priggish judgement. Please, step right up. On the other hand if you’re talking football on Jay’s blog you’ll get a smiley.
And yes, I am unhappy when I see bigotry and generally give holier than thou wingnuts both verbal barrels. I can see how you think that’s abnormal.
DannyX
November 21st, 2011
6:05 pm
“And I defy you to name any Episcopal church who has run anyone out for being gay. I’m a lifelong Episcopalian and have only seen people treated with dignity, regardless of their personal choices.”
Actually I really like the Episcopals, you are right they do treat everyone with respect and dignity, its some of the other churches I have a problem with. My whole family is Episcopal. I was defending them against the people that were encouraging the split. I feel a church should welcome everyone, including the divorced and the adulterers. I don’t approve of the actions of the renegade Savannah church at all.
Btw In Atl, Aquagirl is the greatest, you shouldn’t be so judgmental.
stannewman
November 21st, 2011
6:12 pm
you deal with a liberal? they do not respect desent. CHRIST CHURCH CO-FOUNDED THE HAND THAT BITES IT. CHRIST CHURCH SHOULD SUE FOR ITS 50% OF THE EPISCOPAL DIOCESE OF GEORGIA LIKE ALL OTHER DIVORCES. THIS OWNERSHIP PREDATES ANY BISHOPS OR THE GEORGIA COURTS.
In Atl
November 21st, 2011
6:13 pm
Shouldn’t be judgmental? My observations are my own. Nothing more. Her posts speak for themselves, sadly. And I suppose you don’t think she’s judgmental
Anyway, peace to you, fellow Episcopalian.
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
6:17 pm
a lot of folks like to beat up on the followers of Christ.
I don’t beat up on followers of Christ, they’re too busy helping and being, well, Christ-like. You know—feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, that sort of thing. I hang out with them all the time, they’re wonderful people. You should try doing the same, you’ll like it.
Now, A-holes who co-opt Jesus’ name for gay bashing and assorted neanderthal behavior ARE getting their @$$es kicked by today’s society. You seem to have confused the two groups, and it’s pretty obvious which one is yours. No tears for you here, sonny.
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
6:30 pm
“No tears for you here, sonny.”
Nor am I asking for any I wear your scorn with pride. Matt. 5:11-12
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
7:18 pm
I wear your scorn with pride.
Well, you’ll certainly be the belle of the Fringe Fruitcake ball. I do hope Sadie Fields isn’t too jealous.
In Atl
November 21st, 2011
7:33 pm
I didn’t think your posts could get much worse. Clearly you’re decompensating.
Stand Up
November 21st, 2011
7:55 pm
The fellowship of believers is Jesus’ church, but the building belongs to church corporate. Sorry, but the ruling was right. Rejoice, however, it is a small price to pay for standing up for the fair reading of the scriptures against those who trade their souls cheaply. Would you really be happier sitting in a familiar pew, yet compromising the truth? This should give pause to any church member, in that denomination, who is considering giving to the next building campaign. You buy it, you maintain it, you improve it, but church corporate owns the place.
td
November 21st, 2011
8:18 pm
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
6:17 pm
“You know—feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, that sort of thing.”
If that is what you think being a Christian is all about then you are sadly mistaken. Christ commanded all his followers to:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Matt 28:19
So if you are a follower of Christ then it is your soul job and duty to go out and tell all the masses that there is only one way to get to heaven and it is to believe that Jesus is your personal Lord and savior.
If you choose not to believe then that is between you and God. It is not my job to judge you but to inform you.
Best Regards
November 21st, 2011
10:19 pm
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall recieve mercy.
JRG
November 22nd, 2011
12:22 am
Actually, the moral law is also on the side of the Episcopal Church. The local congregation KNEW the rules of the game. They were clearly stated in the Episcopal Church Canons and Constitution, and the Episcopal Church has made clear it has a claim on parish properties for more than 150 years. They have done so because the property was held for the purpose of worship in the Episcopal Church, and a local congregation is NOT autonomous under Episcopal polity. The Episcopal Church is NOT congregational. It is Episcopal (heirarchical) — that’s why it is named what it is. Furthermore, there is a group of Episcopalians who have been waiting to be allowed to worship in what was their church building, and have been worshiping elsewhere while the case was heard. Why does no one have any sympathy for these exiles?
Steve
November 22nd, 2011
9:04 am
Religion doesn’t trump civil law. What a surprise! Just because you claim you believe something doesn’t mean you can just ignore things like property law.
JB Russell
November 22nd, 2011
9:49 am
1 Timothy 4: 1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times SOME WILL ABANDON THE FAITH AND FOLLOW DECEIVING SPIRITS and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 THEY FORBID PEOPLE TO MARRY and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 fOR EVERYTHING GOD CREATED IS GOOD, AND NOTHING IS TO BE REJECTED IF IT IS RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING …
joe
November 22nd, 2011
10:43 am
Turn the building into a civil rights museum!!!
Dave Hall
November 22nd, 2011
2:57 pm
Of course congregants are free to leave a church building and religious organization but they can’t take the buildings with them! Perhaps that is the real reason they “can’t abide” the national church decision to welcome all to the Epsicopal Church. When the national church started ordaining women some left the church but they didn’t take the buildings with them. After women started being ordained these former Epsicopal members became Independent Anglicans but they started their own churches after buying other buildings or building their own churches. Good for the court decsion!
gaylib
November 22nd, 2011
3:34 pm
hatred and bigotry have consequences. deal with it.
Dusty
November 22nd, 2011
3:54 pm
Looks like they cherry-picked the wrong cause to back. Maybe they’ll start learning to understand the growing importance of the separation of church and hate.
Leadstylist
November 22nd, 2011
5:44 pm
Ive read many comments here talking about the bible condemning homosexuality, what many people fail to realize is that it actually doesn’t. The word ‘homosexuality didn’t even show up in the KJV of the bible until the 1950’s, also, the word translated to men homosexuality actually had more to do with same sex prostitution than it did with committed gay couples. It was common practice in those times for pagan religions to engage in sexual ritual and sacrifice. The bible was more likely speaking of these rituals in which straight men would engage in sex with same sex temple prostitutes, and that was unnatural for them, one because they were straight, and two because it was a sacrifice or pagan ritual. People need to stop using the bible to condemn gay people. There will be a ton of very surprised people when they meet their maker and realize all the hate and harm they caused. Here are a few links on the subject, there is much more research available as well with a quick google search.
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
http://www.stratfordbeaconherald.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1228133&archive=true
Jeff
November 22nd, 2011
7:16 pm
They did the right thing.
Gabriel Holliday
November 22nd, 2011
7:33 pm
It is clear to me that the members of the congregation had not read their Dicipline (rules of order or doctrine). The Epistopal church always claim all properties purchased by the local as belonging to the entire church as a whole. I have seen this situation happen in many states. In the future read the rules before you join any congregation.
Gary B
November 22nd, 2011
8:50 pm
All this conflicting discussions relevant to the decision of a portion of the congregation separating from this church can continue to be thrown back and forth with vitriolic escalation.
In spite of their futile Arguments surrounding their emotions of other American Anglicans and homosexuality, once the Nigerian-sect left the congregation and formally split, aligning themselves to Nigeria’s Anglican Congregation their Claims for the property are a waste of the Court’s time. This is not a Church nor religious issue.
This is a Claim of Property Rights, and the Courts will maintain to keep their religious convictions outside of the Courtroom and favour the American Anglican Church. This is the property of the American Anglican Church, and has been their property since 1733. Case closed.
Scott
November 23rd, 2011
6:06 am
As a life long Episcopalian, Episcopal prep-schooler, and Sewanee grad I know these splits are wrought by misguided new comers to the church who joined because they thought they were joining a conservative elite club. The rich old families they wooed and emulated were members, and also the buildings and ritual were beautiful and afforded the royal pomp they yearned for in their closeted and boring lives. The very name they adopt ‘Anglican’ reminds them of the queen and royal weddings. Well too bad ‘Episcopal’ means run by Bishops who do so because they have devoted their minds, their souls and their lives’ work to to carrying out what Jesus asked us all to do which is love one another. If you want to look to Anglican guides go to Westminter Abbey and ask yourself where the Church would be today without all the homosexuals like James I buried there along with Charles Darwin. Get over your big egos, get some therapy, go to the opera for your drama and come back to church for the right reasons.
Georgia Supreme Court Kicks Homophobic Congregation Out of $3 Million Church | Gay Blog | Gay News
November 23rd, 2011
5:58 pm
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Will Jones - Atlanta Jeffersonian Exegesis
November 25th, 2011
2:19 am
Nahmias is from a fall-away Jew family (like the DNA-Jews who became Maronite Roman Catholics now leading the “Palastinians,” rather than risk crucifixion two thousand years ago) working post-Hitler-as-papal-catspaw Holocaust (”A Moral Reckoning,” Goldhagen) as a Roman Catholic (like Madeleine Albright’s family) to bury America’s righteous, G-dly Founders’, whig (i.e. “anti-Roman Catholic”), Deist (i.e. worshippers of The Deity, alone) Consciousness of American Exceptionalism, by which each individual, of the El-ectorate, is sovereign under the Creator, the one perfect, infinite, eternal, invisible, ineffable G-d of the universe, by the three mottoes of our civil religion enshrined in Our Creed, emblazoned on The Great Seal of The United States.
Read Our Founder, Author, and Prophet, Mr. Jefferson’s “Homage to Reason” letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, “pious fraud” letter to Maj. Cartwright, and 19jan10 letter to Samuel Kercheval, in which he thoroughly debunks Christianity as a Roman lie (under codified Roman law crucifixion was the single, unique punishment for only the second conviction for sedition – denying Caesar was G-d Almighty, the Creator of the universe – and tens of thousands were crucified) propounded by the same families’ sitting on the same hills of Europe, in the same castles they’ve occupied for two and three thousand years as descendants of caesars and popes…for whom the Bush/Rockefeller Fifth Column has worked since they built Big Oil on unredressed murder and arson (GWBush is now the owner of 11% of all U.S. retail oil and gas pipeline, storage and distribution, according to the employees at Colonial Pipeline/Perimeter Terminal), financed the rise of Hitler from Rome’s collection plates, created the CIA as a haven for Operation Ratline, assassinated President Kennedy and Dr. King to send us to die protecting their papal fiefdom from whig Jeffersonian Ho Chi Minh, and, exclusively on the Supreme Court, cheated a homosexual psychopath into the White House to commit 9.11 with PNAC Netanyahu’s false Jews of Mossad to take us to false war for the Saudi “royal family,” and to prop up the Federal Reserve scam John Kennedy ended with his EO11,110.
G-d is not mocked, and having a bishop unable to overcome having been molested as a child is the least of the American Episcopal Church’s problems: “pools of molten steel” “took months to cool” at the World Trade Center (melting point of steel? 2700F.; burning temperature of jet fuel? 750F. Do the math…nanothermite has been discovered in the dust residue from the three towers’ controlled demolition and the USAF’s top crash analysis officer, Col. George Nelson, (ret.), is on the record stating the obvious truth that no Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon on 9.11.
Hundredth Monkey? Anyone? America?
Death for Treason…and some reading this are sworn on their lives to The Oath.
Is “Duty, Honor, Country” a “joke?”
Drew
November 25th, 2011
4:20 pm
I agree with the decision. Both factions of the congregation has historically used the guise “Episcopal” for centuries in order to attract Episcopalians to the church, obtain offerings, run the church, etc. Without using the name of the church, Episcopalians would have never settled to that congregation. Now that the national church has made a decision that the local church disagreed with, suddenly they want to leave the ‘name brand’ that sustained them for centuries. Episcopalians are known to be on the side of progressiveness in Christianity. Why are they surprised? They should have never carried the name for all these years to benefit from it only to leave it when it continued on the path that more and more church organization are taking each passing year. They would have never obtained all their assets with the Episcopal brand, so its really not theirs to keep. Many denominations are locally governed and others are not. If the congregation wanted local control they should not have joined a national church organization or accepted their support services for two centuries.
Geoff Swenson
November 27th, 2011
2:50 am
I don’t have much sympathy for homophobes, but the decision makes sense. The Episcopalian church is not a confederacy of independent congregations, but a centrally administered organization. A congregation can choose to separate from the church, but they can’t take the church’s property with them.