Savannah congregation that revolted over gay bishop must forfeit 18th century building
The Georgia Supreme Court has ruled that a Savannah congregation of a 278-year-old church that revolted over the affirmation of a gay bishop will have to give up the historic building to the national Episcopal church.
This undated file photo shows Christ Church of Savannah, founded in 1733, in Savannah, Ga. The Georgia Supreme Court voted six to one in a decision released Monday to uphold a lower court's October 2009 ruling confirming the national Episcopal Church's claim to the historic institution. AP/Savannah Morning News
From a summary issued this morning:
Christ Church was founded in 1733, when English General James Oglethorpe designated the land on which the church stands as a place of worship. The church received title to the building by land grants from the royal government in 1758 and post-Revolution state legislature in 1789. In 1823, Christ Church co-founded the Episcopal Diocese of Georgia and formally joined the national Episcopal Church.
In 2007, after the national Episcopal Church affirmed its first openly gay bishop in New Hampsire, 87 percent of the Savannah congregation voted to cut off its affiliation with the Georgia Diocese and join an Anglican diocese in Uganda.
The Georgia Bishop recognized the minority faction, including its rector, wardens and vestry, as the rightful leaders of Christ Church who named themselves “Christ Church Episcopal.” However, the majority faction, which called themselves “Christ Church in Savannah,” refused to give up the property.
The Georgia Diocese and national Episcopal Church then sued the local congregation, seeking a court declaration that the church’s historic building and property on Bull Street, worth nearly $3 million, as well as three other parcels of property titled in the name of Christ Church, were held in trust for the benefit of the national church.
Lower courts had ruled in favor of the national organization, with the state Court of Appeals pointing out that Episcopalians have a hierarchical denomination ruled by bishops rather than one controlled by congregations.
The 45-page decision was written by Justice David Nahmias. Superior Court Judge Phillip Brown of Macon, filling in for Jusice George Carley, was the only dissenter:
“The majority ….reaches an unjust result that is contrary to law in many ways,” Brown writes in his 96-page dissent. The local congregation “has spent large amounts of time and money to prevent the National Church from wrongfully taking [its] property through judicial action without the National Church having any document that qualifies as a title document under Georgia law.
How else can we fairly describe the National Church’s conduct other than an attempt to take [the local church’s] property without paying for it.”
- By Jim Galloway, Political Insider
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88 comments Add your comment
DannyX
November 21st, 2011
5:20 pm
“If the husband then realizes later on that his adultery and divorce were sins and repents the Church should accept him.”
Of course that is not what Jesus said. You want a literal translation of the Bible on homosexuality but claim all these waivers when it affects the majority of church members. Can’t kick out the big money donors.
In fact most churches position on divorce has evolved, use to be that divorced people were treated like gays in churches. Man has changed the laws to suit their own “sins.” Divorce in the Catholic church is new. Scapegoating gays is for hypocrites.
Look at the difference in reactions to divorce and gay issues. You never ever see the same kind of judgmental reaction from Christians when a Christian couple divorces. No throwing stones, no hysterical “family values” rants, no “you’re going to Hell. A blog on gay subjects will result in hundreds of posts, you would never see a blog started with the same judgmental defenders of the Bible over a divorce.
What do you not understand about “Until death do us part?” Divorce is a CHOICE!
HCCynic
November 21st, 2011
5:24 pm
I agree with Ben; let the national denomination have the building and the bills that go with it. i realize we are talking about Savannah and the natives down there are extremely shallow and prideful about their historic district, but, in the end, its only a building.
To the rebutted congregation, you stood by your convictions and you fought the fight, but the court has ruled. Now, “render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasar’s” and move on with your religious life. Start a new congregation, or join another, either way you are free from the agenda pushing national Episcopal church.
My fear is that if you continue the fight for the building, you will simply paint yourself as “materialistic” and in so doing, you will lose the testimony of a faithful doctrine, and the respect you have earned from so many conservative evangelicals.
To all, Be of strong faith and good cheer,
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
5:27 pm
I believe Omama is sending Special Forces in to kill them all.
Good. For more than 20 years these wonderful christians have been killing, raping, and torturing people for Jeebus while they try to establish their theocracy. I hope those SF guys feel the need for self defense quite often.
DannyX
November 21st, 2011
5:29 pm
“…and the respect you have earned from so many conservative evangelicals.”
Why are conservative evangelicals divorcing like crazy?
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
5:34 pm
No, I believe Jesus always accepted people when they repented of their sin. The important part is acknowledging that their behavior is wrong and stopping that behavior.
Anyway, we are off topic. The National Church had the legal right to the property, but the local Church had the moral right to it. The National Church used the Courts to “stick it” to the local Church. A lot of folks think that’s cool because they really like to do some Christian Hating. Well, no problem we’ve been dealing with it for a few thousand years and no reason to expect it to stop now.
In Atl
November 21st, 2011
5:46 pm
Danny, you insist on continuing your straw man argument. Fine. Divorce is not viewed favorably by any church I know of. It’s a symptom of our fallen nature. Nobody celebrates it, holds it up as holy or as a healthy thing. But celebrating and blessing is exactly what some in the Episcopal church seek to do with same-sex relationships. Elevating something sinful is abhorrent to a vast number of parishioners. And I defy you to name any Episcopal church who has run anyone out for being gay. I’m a lifelong Episcopalian and have only seen people treated with dignity, regardless of their personal choices.
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
5:48 pm
we’ve been dealing with it for a few thousand years and no reason to expect it to stop now.
Where would you like your christian persecution fainting couch? Is the corner OK?
In Atl
November 21st, 2011
5:51 pm
Aquagirl, could you be any nastier? In every blog I’ve ever seen you post in your comments are consistently condescending, smug and add little or nothing to the conversation. You must be a very unhappy person.
catherine
November 21st, 2011
5:58 pm
” I guess name calling is okay if you’re liberal”
why is it that some decry name calling by calling names? Hypocrites. These dinosaurs can get another church. Uganda kills gays. They believe that God would choose among his beloved children who can hate and be hated, who can kill and be killed for hatred. What sad asses these fools are. Boy are they going to be surprised some day to go to God and find out he’s not amused at all. What good father would be?
Bob
November 21st, 2011
6:02 pm
@In Atl…great post my friend. Watergirl and her cronies have all the answers about every topic including why everyone else’s opinion is wrong.. Too bad they weren’t selected for the Congressional spending cuts panel.
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
6:03 pm
“Where would you like your christian persecution fainting couch? Is the corner OK?”
Sorry, I know it is taboo in proper society to mention the fact that a lot of folks like to beat up on the followers of Christ. The funny thing is I know I fall short of his example every day, but it is nice that you allow me to post here since so many of you are perfect.
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
6:03 pm
Aquagirl, could you be any nastier?
Well, I could make a special effort just for you….if you’re a hypocrite who tapdances around the disconnect of singling out gays for your priggish judgement. Please, step right up. On the other hand if you’re talking football on Jay’s blog you’ll get a smiley.
And yes, I am unhappy when I see bigotry and generally give holier than thou wingnuts both verbal barrels. I can see how you think that’s abnormal.
DannyX
November 21st, 2011
6:05 pm
“And I defy you to name any Episcopal church who has run anyone out for being gay. I’m a lifelong Episcopalian and have only seen people treated with dignity, regardless of their personal choices.”
Actually I really like the Episcopals, you are right they do treat everyone with respect and dignity, its some of the other churches I have a problem with. My whole family is Episcopal. I was defending them against the people that were encouraging the split. I feel a church should welcome everyone, including the divorced and the adulterers. I don’t approve of the actions of the renegade Savannah church at all.
Btw In Atl, Aquagirl is the greatest, you shouldn’t be so judgmental.
stannewman
November 21st, 2011
6:12 pm
you deal with a liberal? they do not respect desent. CHRIST CHURCH CO-FOUNDED THE HAND THAT BITES IT. CHRIST CHURCH SHOULD SUE FOR ITS 50% OF THE EPISCOPAL DIOCESE OF GEORGIA LIKE ALL OTHER DIVORCES. THIS OWNERSHIP PREDATES ANY BISHOPS OR THE GEORGIA COURTS.
In Atl
November 21st, 2011
6:13 pm
Shouldn’t be judgmental? My observations are my own. Nothing more. Her posts speak for themselves, sadly. And I suppose you don’t think she’s judgmental
Anyway, peace to you, fellow Episcopalian.
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
6:17 pm
a lot of folks like to beat up on the followers of Christ.
I don’t beat up on followers of Christ, they’re too busy helping and being, well, Christ-like. You know—feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, that sort of thing. I hang out with them all the time, they’re wonderful people. You should try doing the same, you’ll like it.
Now, A-holes who co-opt Jesus’ name for gay bashing and assorted neanderthal behavior ARE getting their @$$es kicked by today’s society. You seem to have confused the two groups, and it’s pretty obvious which one is yours. No tears for you here, sonny.
SAWB
November 21st, 2011
6:30 pm
“No tears for you here, sonny.”
Nor am I asking for any I wear your scorn with pride. Matt. 5:11-12
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
7:18 pm
I wear your scorn with pride.
Well, you’ll certainly be the belle of the Fringe Fruitcake ball. I do hope Sadie Fields isn’t too jealous.
In Atl
November 21st, 2011
7:33 pm
I didn’t think your posts could get much worse. Clearly you’re decompensating.
Stand Up
November 21st, 2011
7:55 pm
The fellowship of believers is Jesus’ church, but the building belongs to church corporate. Sorry, but the ruling was right. Rejoice, however, it is a small price to pay for standing up for the fair reading of the scriptures against those who trade their souls cheaply. Would you really be happier sitting in a familiar pew, yet compromising the truth? This should give pause to any church member, in that denomination, who is considering giving to the next building campaign. You buy it, you maintain it, you improve it, but church corporate owns the place.
td
November 21st, 2011
8:18 pm
Aquagirl
November 21st, 2011
6:17 pm
“You know—feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, that sort of thing.”
If that is what you think being a Christian is all about then you are sadly mistaken. Christ commanded all his followers to:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Matt 28:19
So if you are a follower of Christ then it is your soul job and duty to go out and tell all the masses that there is only one way to get to heaven and it is to believe that Jesus is your personal Lord and savior.
If you choose not to believe then that is between you and God. It is not my job to judge you but to inform you.
Best Regards
November 21st, 2011
10:19 pm
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall recieve mercy.
JRG
November 22nd, 2011
12:22 am
Actually, the moral law is also on the side of the Episcopal Church. The local congregation KNEW the rules of the game. They were clearly stated in the Episcopal Church Canons and Constitution, and the Episcopal Church has made clear it has a claim on parish properties for more than 150 years. They have done so because the property was held for the purpose of worship in the Episcopal Church, and a local congregation is NOT autonomous under Episcopal polity. The Episcopal Church is NOT congregational. It is Episcopal (heirarchical) — that’s why it is named what it is. Furthermore, there is a group of Episcopalians who have been waiting to be allowed to worship in what was their church building, and have been worshiping elsewhere while the case was heard. Why does no one have any sympathy for these exiles?
Steve
November 22nd, 2011
9:04 am
Religion doesn’t trump civil law. What a surprise! Just because you claim you believe something doesn’t mean you can just ignore things like property law.
JB Russell
November 22nd, 2011
9:49 am
1 Timothy 4: 1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times SOME WILL ABANDON THE FAITH AND FOLLOW DECEIVING SPIRITS and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 THEY FORBID PEOPLE TO MARRY and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 fOR EVERYTHING GOD CREATED IS GOOD, AND NOTHING IS TO BE REJECTED IF IT IS RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING …
joe
November 22nd, 2011
10:43 am
Turn the building into a civil rights museum!!!
Dave Hall
November 22nd, 2011
2:57 pm
Of course congregants are free to leave a church building and religious organization but they can’t take the buildings with them! Perhaps that is the real reason they “can’t abide” the national church decision to welcome all to the Epsicopal Church. When the national church started ordaining women some left the church but they didn’t take the buildings with them. After women started being ordained these former Epsicopal members became Independent Anglicans but they started their own churches after buying other buildings or building their own churches. Good for the court decsion!
gaylib
November 22nd, 2011
3:34 pm
hatred and bigotry have consequences. deal with it.
Dusty
November 22nd, 2011
3:54 pm
Looks like they cherry-picked the wrong cause to back. Maybe they’ll start learning to understand the growing importance of the separation of church and hate.
Leadstylist
November 22nd, 2011
5:44 pm
Ive read many comments here talking about the bible condemning homosexuality, what many people fail to realize is that it actually doesn’t. The word ‘homosexuality didn’t even show up in the KJV of the bible until the 1950’s, also, the word translated to men homosexuality actually had more to do with same sex prostitution than it did with committed gay couples. It was common practice in those times for pagan religions to engage in sexual ritual and sacrifice. The bible was more likely speaking of these rituals in which straight men would engage in sex with same sex temple prostitutes, and that was unnatural for them, one because they were straight, and two because it was a sacrifice or pagan ritual. People need to stop using the bible to condemn gay people. There will be a ton of very surprised people when they meet their maker and realize all the hate and harm they caused. Here are a few links on the subject, there is much more research available as well with a quick google search.
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
http://www.stratfordbeaconherald.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1228133&archive=true
Jeff
November 22nd, 2011
7:16 pm
They did the right thing.
Gabriel Holliday
November 22nd, 2011
7:33 pm
It is clear to me that the members of the congregation had not read their Dicipline (rules of order or doctrine). The Epistopal church always claim all properties purchased by the local as belonging to the entire church as a whole. I have seen this situation happen in many states. In the future read the rules before you join any congregation.
Gary B
November 22nd, 2011
8:50 pm
All this conflicting discussions relevant to the decision of a portion of the congregation separating from this church can continue to be thrown back and forth with vitriolic escalation.
In spite of their futile Arguments surrounding their emotions of other American Anglicans and homosexuality, once the Nigerian-sect left the congregation and formally split, aligning themselves to Nigeria’s Anglican Congregation their Claims for the property are a waste of the Court’s time. This is not a Church nor religious issue.
This is a Claim of Property Rights, and the Courts will maintain to keep their religious convictions outside of the Courtroom and favour the American Anglican Church. This is the property of the American Anglican Church, and has been their property since 1733. Case closed.
Scott
November 23rd, 2011
6:06 am
As a life long Episcopalian, Episcopal prep-schooler, and Sewanee grad I know these splits are wrought by misguided new comers to the church who joined because they thought they were joining a conservative elite club. The rich old families they wooed and emulated were members, and also the buildings and ritual were beautiful and afforded the royal pomp they yearned for in their closeted and boring lives. The very name they adopt ‘Anglican’ reminds them of the queen and royal weddings. Well too bad ‘Episcopal’ means run by Bishops who do so because they have devoted their minds, their souls and their lives’ work to to carrying out what Jesus asked us all to do which is love one another. If you want to look to Anglican guides go to Westminter Abbey and ask yourself where the Church would be today without all the homosexuals like James I buried there along with Charles Darwin. Get over your big egos, get some therapy, go to the opera for your drama and come back to church for the right reasons.
Georgia Supreme Court Kicks Homophobic Congregation Out of $3 Million Church | Gay Blog | Gay News
November 23rd, 2011
5:58 pm
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Will Jones - Atlanta Jeffersonian Exegesis
November 25th, 2011
2:19 am
Nahmias is from a fall-away Jew family (like the DNA-Jews who became Maronite Roman Catholics now leading the “Palastinians,” rather than risk crucifixion two thousand years ago) working post-Hitler-as-papal-catspaw Holocaust (”A Moral Reckoning,” Goldhagen) as a Roman Catholic (like Madeleine Albright’s family) to bury America’s righteous, G-dly Founders’, whig (i.e. “anti-Roman Catholic”), Deist (i.e. worshippers of The Deity, alone) Consciousness of American Exceptionalism, by which each individual, of the El-ectorate, is sovereign under the Creator, the one perfect, infinite, eternal, invisible, ineffable G-d of the universe, by the three mottoes of our civil religion enshrined in Our Creed, emblazoned on The Great Seal of The United States.
Read Our Founder, Author, and Prophet, Mr. Jefferson’s “Homage to Reason” letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, “pious fraud” letter to Maj. Cartwright, and 19jan10 letter to Samuel Kercheval, in which he thoroughly debunks Christianity as a Roman lie (under codified Roman law crucifixion was the single, unique punishment for only the second conviction for sedition – denying Caesar was G-d Almighty, the Creator of the universe – and tens of thousands were crucified) propounded by the same families’ sitting on the same hills of Europe, in the same castles they’ve occupied for two and three thousand years as descendants of caesars and popes…for whom the Bush/Rockefeller Fifth Column has worked since they built Big Oil on unredressed murder and arson (GWBush is now the owner of 11% of all U.S. retail oil and gas pipeline, storage and distribution, according to the employees at Colonial Pipeline/Perimeter Terminal), financed the rise of Hitler from Rome’s collection plates, created the CIA as a haven for Operation Ratline, assassinated President Kennedy and Dr. King to send us to die protecting their papal fiefdom from whig Jeffersonian Ho Chi Minh, and, exclusively on the Supreme Court, cheated a homosexual psychopath into the White House to commit 9.11 with PNAC Netanyahu’s false Jews of Mossad to take us to false war for the Saudi “royal family,” and to prop up the Federal Reserve scam John Kennedy ended with his EO11,110.
G-d is not mocked, and having a bishop unable to overcome having been molested as a child is the least of the American Episcopal Church’s problems: “pools of molten steel” “took months to cool” at the World Trade Center (melting point of steel? 2700F.; burning temperature of jet fuel? 750F. Do the math…nanothermite has been discovered in the dust residue from the three towers’ controlled demolition and the USAF’s top crash analysis officer, Col. George Nelson, (ret.), is on the record stating the obvious truth that no Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon on 9.11.
Hundredth Monkey? Anyone? America?
Death for Treason…and some reading this are sworn on their lives to The Oath.
Is “Duty, Honor, Country” a “joke?”
Drew
November 25th, 2011
4:20 pm
I agree with the decision. Both factions of the congregation has historically used the guise “Episcopal” for centuries in order to attract Episcopalians to the church, obtain offerings, run the church, etc. Without using the name of the church, Episcopalians would have never settled to that congregation. Now that the national church has made a decision that the local church disagreed with, suddenly they want to leave the ‘name brand’ that sustained them for centuries. Episcopalians are known to be on the side of progressiveness in Christianity. Why are they surprised? They should have never carried the name for all these years to benefit from it only to leave it when it continued on the path that more and more church organization are taking each passing year. They would have never obtained all their assets with the Episcopal brand, so its really not theirs to keep. Many denominations are locally governed and others are not. If the congregation wanted local control they should not have joined a national church organization or accepted their support services for two centuries.
Geoff Swenson
November 27th, 2011
2:50 am
I don’t have much sympathy for homophobes, but the decision makes sense. The Episcopalian church is not a confederacy of independent congregations, but a centrally administered organization. A congregation can choose to separate from the church, but they can’t take the church’s property with them.