The GOP debate over Mormonism breaks into open
The Republican debate over Mormonism officially broke into the open this afternoon. From the Associated Press:
WASHINGTON — The pastor who introduced Texas Gov. Rick Perry at a conservative gathering Friday said rival presidential candidate Mitt Romney is not a Christian and is in a cult because he is a Mormon.
Robert Jeffress, senior pastor at First Baptist Church in Dallas, endorsed Perry at the Values Voters Summit, introducing him as “a proven leader, a true conservative, and a committed follower of Christ.”
After his remarks, Jeffress told reporters that Perry’s religion is different from Romney’s.
“Rick Perry’s a Christian. He’s an evangelical Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ,” Jeffress said. “Mitt Romney’s a good moral person, but he’s not a Christian. Mormonism is not Christianity. It has always been considered a cult by the mainstream of Christianity.”
Romney is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whose members are commonly called Mormons.
Perry disavowed Jeffress’ statements. But they could hardly have been a surprise — Jeffress had said much the same thing four years ago. After the 2008 presidential election, in which Romney lost the Republican nomination to John McCain, the Religion Newswriters Association hosted a debate on this very topic.
The two participants were Jay Sekulow, a well-known metro Atlanta lawyer and Christian fundamentalist — and Jeffress.
The sponsor of the event was the DeMoss Group of Buckhead. Mark DeMoss served as Romney’s liaison to evangelicals in ’08, and is part of the current Romney campaign. Jeffress had the first word in the discussion:
Said Jeffress:
“I believe, first of all, that Christians ought to prefer Christians over non-Christians as their leaders.…A Christian politician who says his faith has no influence on his public policy is either a dishonest politician or a superficial Christian….
“The value of electing a Christian goes beyond the public policies that he or she may enact. We believe that a genuine Christian has a relationship with God, is indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, is led by the spirit of God, and is uniquely favored by God. Even if that genuine believer does not embrace every position we hold important, we still believe that we make a grave mistake in underestimating the value of having a Christian in office….”
Then came Sekulow:
Said Sekulow:
”If Mitt Romney was running against Jimmy Carter, would you support Jimmy Carter because he’s a born-again Christian? I find that premise to be troubling.”
- By Jim Galloway, Political Insider
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191 comments Add your comment
duke
October 8th, 2011
3:43 pm
The only Mormons who really know what Mormonism teaches are the ones who go through the ritual at the temple. Not all Mormons are allowed into one of the temples. It is not a place for general worship, like the temples of some religions. It is a place where certain selected members are allowed to go- only once, I think- to go through a sort of initiation. The way to learn about this is to listen to the testimony of former Mormons who went through the temple ritual, who absorbed the teaching there and believed it, who defended those teachings openly against knowledgeable Christian debaters, and who in the proces of those debates were converted to Christianity.
Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a physical body, and that He had sexual relations with Mary the Mother. In the resurrection, each Mormon male who is found worthy- the standard is not merely faith in Christ; very few will make it- will become the Father-God of his own solar system, which will be populated entirely with his own descendants. The wife is not resurrected unless the husband chooses to resurrect her. There is a lot more along those lines, but I can’t remember it.
The true biography of Joseph Smith is very different from the official biography. He came from a long line of con artists, and was the most successful one in the traditional trade of his family. When his various schemes began to catch up with him in the state he was in- I can’t remember, was it Utah?- he tried to escape by running for President of the United States. That attracted attention from the news media. When Smith and his thugs destroyed the printing presses of a newspaper which printed the truth about him, the U.S. army got involved; and he ended up in jail, where he belonged. All the people whom he had swindled, people whose relatives he had murdered, and so forth, stormed the jail and lynched him. One of his followers had smuggled in a gun, and he killed several of the attackers before they got him.
There was nothing holy or spiritual about Joseph Smith; he did not even measure up to routine standards of morality. It is a mystery that the religion founded by such a man could produce so many members who are in fact moral human beings, and very dedicated America patriots.
Xanthippe
October 8th, 2011
3:58 pm
It’s a moot point because cults and religions are the exact same thing.
Swede Atlanta
October 8th, 2011
4:02 pm
Duke, let me begin by saying I am a Christian that is active in a mainstream Protestant (non-Baptist) denomination. So I am not anti-Christian.
But the current “Christian” belief system that originated with the Catholic Chuch, is based on doctrines that were agreed and adopted by mortal men. They chose which “gospels” or faith traditions to include in the Christian Bible. They were, in fact, editors of the faith based on purely personal beliefs. I do not believe those decisions were based on anything spiritual but rather on what they believed would further their own personal positions as well as “the faith”.
Given that I think the current Bible is a hand-picked glossary of stories told by questionable people (I believe Christ came to this world to save mankind from sin), why should we not give the stories of Joseph Smith the same credence?
Both traditions are filled with enough corruption and vagary to scare one away. The Catholic Church’s indulgences and going back and forth on priestly celibacy to Mormonism’s belief in polygamy and then renouncing it and initially claiming blacks were the descendants of Cain and then welcoming them into the priesthood are enough evidence that “organized and controlled” religion serves on the hierarchy. It has nothing to do with true faith.
Ronaldus Hyattus
October 8th, 2011
4:48 pm
Why would it matter to you commie lib wackos if the GOP bashes a mormon, you’re atheist scum, you should be helping. Oh,wait, you are, but not directly, but the Alinsky/Obamacommie way.
Hard on the Beaver Ward
October 8th, 2011
4:50 pm
Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, what’s the difference?
Corey
October 8th, 2011
5:03 pm
Will someone please sit TD down and school him/her about the relationship between back leaders and the FBIduring the days of the struggle? TD, you keep viewing the US through 21st century lenses.
it says in the bible that....
October 8th, 2011
5:10 pm
jesus is a libtard
booberry
October 8th, 2011
5:34 pm
jesus is a drunk, his 1st miracle was turning water into wine
Veronica M Reimann
October 8th, 2011
7:23 pm
It is comments like Rev. Jeffress that turned me away from Gov. Huckbee when he was running in 2008 I’ve heard the same illiterate comments when John F Kennedy was running, No I did not vote for Kennedy and I was a convent raised Catholic I have lived amoung the LDS since 1956 and I am married to a LDS man No I have not joined the LDS church, But yes they are devote christians, Enough of this this religous malarky, the Rev Jefferess is out of order, his superiors need to publicly need to sensior this man Lets get together and vote for the best canidate to help our country out of this mess we are in and get rid of Obama
ND
October 8th, 2011
8:44 pm
As a non-Christian I pray for the day Americans become mature enough to realize that religious preference has absolutely nothing to do with how well a person can run the country. If anything, adhering to a religion that explicitly professes its own superiority over others is a handicap, not an asset.
bob
October 8th, 2011
8:52 pm
buddhists are the best.
AYNIL
October 8th, 2011
11:06 pm
“Hence the doctrines he really delivered were defective as a whole, and fragments only of what he did deliver have come to us mutilated, misstated and often unintelligible.” TJ
parachute pirate
October 9th, 2011
3:15 am
All the comments, all the hatred. all the self righteousness. I am grateful to be living in a country where one can speak their minds. Crap has a right to be crap…..one could go on forever. I am a convert to the LDS church. There is no magic underwear (wrong, but funny). I have heard it all and have held my beliefs after a life time of unhappiness and searching, and bad choices, and checking out other “cults” (LOVE
parachute pirate
October 9th, 2011
3:29 am
love this phrase.
Mitt Romney is LDS and a Republican. I will probably not vote for him because I am a democrat and more liberal in my thinking than he is. You would be amazed at the number of Mormons who are not republican or all that conservatie in their political views. As for the pastor’s remarks. I am sure he was well intentioned and not much else. We all have choices and can enjoy the benefits or the consequences of those choices. If you REALLY knew anything about LDS teachings, you know this is a major cornerstone of their faith. Yes, Mormons do study the Bilbe all the time. Believe me, my Bible class is intense and informative. I love it.
Personally, if all one does is worry about the faith of lack there of, of said politicians they really just have way too much time on their hands.
Bring it on, baby.
way off base
October 9th, 2011
8:11 am
Duke:
It would be hard to fit more disinformation into your comments.
The best way to learn about “conventional Christianity” is to find someone, perhaps a priest, pastor, bishop, reverend, or deacon, who met with representatives of other faiths and abandoned Christianity to become a Muslim, Jew, or atheist. That’s credible and convincing, right?
There is not enough time or space to devote to debunking every bit of information that is incorrect about what you wrote. The basic question is the advisability of a religious litmus test for candidates for public office. It does not square consitutionally or from a rational standpoint. Jay Sekulow does an admirable job of pointing out the dangers of allowing bigotry, ignorance, and religious intolerance to interfere with voting for good candidates.
But for reference:
The LDS can go to temples multiple times. All worthy members can go.
In the resurrection, Mormon males cannot impede the resurrection of reighteous females. Mormons belive that resurrection is a free gift provided for all through Christ. You said “There is a lot more along those lines, but I can’t remember it.” It’s probably a good thing, considering that what your misremembered is completely errant.
Ah, “The true biography of Joseph Smith” could we have the ISBN on that? Joseph Smith never made it to Utah. He was killed by “good Christians” in a mob in Illinois [that's in the Midwest]. “Smith and his thugs destroyed the printing presses of a newspaper which printed the truth about him, the U.S. army got involved; and he ended up in jail, where he belonged.” Wow. As the First Amendment (or the Bill of Rights) had not yet been incorporated to the states at that point, the destruction of a printing press occurred when a local council declared it (the press) a public nuisance, a Mormon press was destroyed. And since when do mobs in Missouri or Illinois constitute “the US Army?” Are you misled historically or deliberately inaccurate?
“One of his followers had smuggled in a gun, and he killed several of the attackers before they got him” Finally a statement closer to history. Perhaps you would argue that self defense is not a right of common law? While imprisoned awaiting trial, Smith was under state protection. How then was it that a mob was able to breach the walls of the prison? He should have simply allowed the mob to kill him and make no efforts to protect his person or the lives of his friends?
The only thing that really seems mysterious is how such a large portion of individuals in the United States can be so willfully misinformed. It is a damning commentary on our standard of education and intellectual curiosity that message boards such as these are less accurate than average Wikipedia articles.
Al
October 9th, 2011
11:25 am
Romney vs. Obama in Nov = Romney Presidency
Rest of field vs. Obama in Nov = Obama Presidency
Bootnewt
October 9th, 2011
1:27 pm
Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and a glutton…even he couldn’t be nominated by the GOP.
jh
October 9th, 2011
3:17 pm
As a Mormon, the GOP has driven me from their party. I am a Christian from a mainstream religion. I refuse to be part of a group where a large number of members hate me and my religion and say vile and hateful lies about me and my religiion.
Z
October 9th, 2011
3:18 pm
All religions are Cults. Religion can be and is a divider amongst the people. Most Wars are caused by religion, how can that be good? I’ll take Science and Nature over religion any day.
Andrew Burnett
October 9th, 2011
3:19 pm
The minister, Jeffress, attacked Romney on Friday. Romney can handle the attack. No big deal. But, the full story has NOT BEEN TOLD. Below is an excerpt from the minister and his opinion of Catholics, Jews, Muslims, gays, etc.
Someone needs to point out that this guy is a TOTAL RACIST AND A DANGEROUS BIGOT. If you do the proper research, you will easily see what I am talking about. Just Google his name and ‘Catholics’ or ‘Jews’ or ‘Muslims’. Then you will see that Mormons, in his eyes, are just the latest in a long list of “corrupt” people that are worth nothing.
*** HOW CAN ANYONE, LIKE PERRY, CALL THIS AWFUL MAN A CHRISTIAN? PERRY MUST RENOUNCE THIS PERSON. PERRY MUST KNOW THE TRUE CHARACTER OF THIS MAN ***
I am a republican. I am Christian. I am a father of three boys. I have been married for 30 years. Until Friday I was very pleased with Rick Perry. But I will not support him unless he renounces this bigot.
Read what this “man of god” wrote about Catholics, Jews, gays, Muslims.
=====
Jeffress: This is the Babylonian mystery religion that spread like a cult throughout the entire world. The high priests of that fake religion, that false religion, the high priests of that religion would wear crowns that resemble the heads of fish, that was in order to worship the fish god Dagon, and on those crowns were written the words, ‘Keeper of the Bridge,’ the bridge between Satan and man. That phrase ‘Keeper of the Bridge,’ the Roman equivalent of it is Pontifex Maximus. It was a title that was first carried by the Caesars and then the Emperors and finally by the Bishop of the Rome, Pontifex Maximus, the Keeper of the Bridge.
You can see where we’re going with this. It is that Babylonian mystery religion that infected the early church, one of the churches it infected was the church of Pergamos, which is one of the recipients of the Book of Revelation. And the early church was corrupted by this Babylonian mystery religion, and today the Roman Catholic Church is the result of that corruption.
Much of what you see in the Catholic Church today doesn’t come from God’s Word, it comes from that cult-like, pagan religion. Now you say, ‘pastor how can you say such a thing? That is such an indictment of the Catholic Church. After all the Catholic Church talks about God and the Bible and Jesus and the Blood of Christ and Salvation.’
Isn’t that the genius of Satan? If you want to counterfeit a dollar bill, you don’t do it with purple paper and red ink, you’re not going to fool anybody with that. But if you want to counterfeit money, what you do is make it look closely related to the real thing as possible.
And that’s what Satan does with counterfeit religion. He uses, he steals, he appropriates all of the symbols of true biblical Christianity, and he changes it just enough in order to cause people to miss eternal life.
Jeffress: I think part of the problem is we’re in this consumer mentality as a church where we have the idea that our job is to build as big of a church as we possible can. And if we get into that idea and fall into that trap, then we say then we can’t say anything that’s going to offend people, why, if we preach that homosexuality is an abomination to God we better not preach that because that’s going to offend the gays or people who know gay people, if we tell people what the Bible says that every other religion in the world is wrong: Islam is wrong, it is a heresy from the pit of Hell; Mormonism is wrong, it is a heresy from the pit of Hell; Judaism, you can’t be saved being a Jew, you know who said that by the way, the three greatest Jews in the New Testament, Peter, Paul, and Jesus Christ, they all said Judaism won’t do, it’s faith in Jesus Christ.
Bobby Lee Lane
October 9th, 2011
4:11 pm
I am interested in a candidates’ position on the issues not,his religious affiliation.Any one who would let his religion affect public policy would scare me.
Bootnewt
October 9th, 2011
4:36 pm
I’d hate to vote for anyone who believed they could hurry-up the Apocalypse by fomenting wars, enviromental degradation and possible nuclear annihilation.
Clinton "Skeet" Tyree
October 9th, 2011
4:45 pm
@td — Not that you’re really that concerned about facts, but Koch Industries has been involved in the energy business historically and a large segment of their business is oil trading and speculation.
Tom
October 9th, 2011
4:52 pm
This is a hilarious debate. A bunch of wackaloons disputing among themselves about whose beliefs are the craziest.
Maryssanderson
October 9th, 2011
5:02 pm
Look at the men—-Don’t pass up a Huntsman/Huckabee ticket–is this possible?
SMH
October 9th, 2011
5:06 pm
This is the biggest reason why I cannot support Republicans. Who cares if Romney is Mormon? Even if he was a devil-worshiper, I wouldn’t care. Republicans need to quit going off on these tangents and start trying to figure out how to help solve America’s problems.
TeachAManToFish
October 9th, 2011
5:16 pm
Conservative does not mean Christian. Signed a conservative atheist.
Just the facts
October 9th, 2011
5:28 pm
First, let me say that I do not make a person’s faith as a determining factor for whom I will vote. I don’t like Romney because he is (at best) a moderate Republican and will probably be too liberal for me. Second, most Christians have a lot in common with Mormons and consider them to be great people and friends. This is not about personal thoughts about people but about a belief system about God. Here is why Christians who look at LDS (Mormon) teachings are bothered by what they are:
1. The founder of the LDS church said that God told him all Christian churches are wrong, perverted by Satan and are leading people astray. Although his story about how this revelation occurred changed a few times, and he had a strong history of making up stories, the accusation stuck, and he condemned the Catholic and Protestant churches.
2. He produced the “Book of Mormon” and a few other “scriptures” after calling out letters and characters that God revealed to him in a bag with stones. They were transcribed by friends, and it was regarded as being a character-by-character transcription, although thousands of changes have been made since. (This is much different to how the Bible originated.) Christians believe in the Bible and to some degree tradition as the source of God’s guidance, not the various books produced by the LDS church. Their books contradict quite a bit of the Bible, and those books are given priority over the Bible in such contradictions.
3. Mormons are taught that God was once a man and they can (if well behaved enough and married in the temple) become like God in nature. The saying is, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man can become.” This is in direct opposition to not only the Christian faith, but Islam and Judaism, too. It is very fundamental.
4. Mormons believe that God is married and had spirit children – us – as literal children with his wife. He was married in another temple on another planet and was awarded Earth to rule because he was a “good mormon, too.” The same will be true for good mormoms. If they marry in the temple, they will be with their wife for eternity, given a planet of their own to populate, and then govern. Women cannot become gods in the same way. Sorry, ladies.
5. Jesus was the brother of Lucifer / Satan. He chose wisely, but Lucifer did not. They are of the same nature as we are though, and they share the same nature as each other. In fact, we all share the same nature as all of them. This is very different that what Christians believe about Jesus, Satan and God the father. It is common that Mormons use the same phrases about believing in Jesus, his sacrifice, his blood saving us, and going to heaven, but they mean very, very different things.
So, I am not bashing Mormons. We should test all beliefs, those of us who care enough to, and make good decisions about whether the source of these beliefs are trustworthy. It does not allow us though to hate anyone, act inappropriate towards anyone or be dishonest or turn away from friendships. Christ did not do this, and we should not either. Anyone who understands this will not be angry about LDS teachings, even though they may disagree and regard them as “non-Christian.” I have a lot of LDS friends and don’t think twice about it. Finally, the angry condemnations normally come from atheist who mock people with any faith, and I would encourage them to be kind to others, too, even if they do not believe there is any moral obligation to do so.
South Park
October 9th, 2011
6:12 pm
“Maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up. But I have a great life and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don’t care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the Church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that’s stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you’re so high and mighty you couldn’t look past my religion and just be my friend back. You’ve got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls.”
td
October 9th, 2011
6:53 pm
jh
October 9th, 2011
3:17 pm
As a Mormon, the GOP has driven me from their party. I am a Christian from a mainstream religion. I refuse to be part of a group where a large number of members hate me and my religion and say vile and hateful lies about me and my religiion.
So you are trying to tell me that you would rather be part of a party that thinks all religions are cults and anyone that is religious is and idiot? You my friend had no intention of ever voting for a republican. I doubt you even know what Mormonism is.
td
October 9th, 2011
7:06 pm
Andrew Burnett
October 9th, 2011
3:19 pm
Do you my friend know what the protestant reformation was all about? This guy is not saying anything that has not been said for more than a thousand years about the Catholic church. Did you know the Catholics teaching say the same thing about protestants and Jews? You do realize there have been many wars fought over the difference in beliefs between the Protestants and the Catholics? You do realize the main reason for people to come to America was for religious freedom.
The real question is will this Pastor support Romney if he gets the nomination? Will he support a religion he does not agree with over secular humanism/ ungodly socialism? I bet he will support Romney.
Producer
October 9th, 2011
7:25 pm
Those who have nasty things to say about Mormons should know that the US Armed Services, law enforcement and intel agencies fall all over themselves to recruit Mormons to their ranks. They are overwhelmingly of good character and have little in their backgrounds to knock themselves out of contention for a clearance. I’ll work with or consider voting for one any time!
mom3boys
October 9th, 2011
7:50 pm
There have always been areas of the LDS faith that I have had issue with (the holy underwear, being sealed for time,vs being sealed for eternity) to name two. However, I will vote for whoever the GOP puts on the ballot. For 2012 it’s ABO: anyone but O’bama.
IMHO
October 9th, 2011
8:27 pm
I won’t be voting for Mitt cause he’s a Mormon! I cannot vote for someone who believes in wearing Jesus jammas and thinks he can become a God when he dies anymore than I can vote for a man who thinks he’s going to get 72 virgins when he dies.
Jackie
October 9th, 2011
8:28 pm
It seems that the lefites are much, much more interested in Romney’s faith than the republicans are. Once again, Jim is just full of it, peddling a lie that no one but the democrats will buy.
The democrats sure do seem to be full of a lot of hate though.
Just the facts
October 9th, 2011
8:34 pm
I completely agree that Democrats work very hard to divide people. There is not a strong debate within the Republican party about Mormonism. That is just a hopeful wish on the part of liberals that the conservative and rational movement will implode. Dream on, guys, dream on. 2012 will not be here soon enough.
Plain Truther
October 9th, 2011
8:36 pm
My Jesus can beat up your Jesus.
Matt
October 9th, 2011
10:30 pm
I’m tired of having politicians, journalists, and pastors tell the rest of the world what I believe. I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (nickname: Mormon Church). I believe in God the Eternal Father, Christ His Perfect Son, and in the Holy Ghost. I believe that Christ came to earth, lived a perfect life, suffered and died for me and all man-kind, and was resurrected. I believe in the Holy Bible; it is beautiful and inspired and the word of God. It has brought me closer to my Savior. For the same reason I believe that the Book of Mormon is also the word of God. It has also brought me closer to my Savior. I’m not sure what the political definition of a Christian is, or what definition these pastors are refering to, but if I’m not mistaken, a Christian is someone who believes in Christ and does his very best to follow His teachings. Thats what I do, so, call me what you will.
Philip2
October 10th, 2011
5:04 pm
People should educate themselves about Mormonism and the Church of Latter Day Saints before they decide on this issue. The media won’t do it for you. Go to exmormon.org to get the other side and make up your own mind.
Philip2
October 10th, 2011
5:14 pm
Veronica M Reimann
October 8th, 2011 7:23 pm
I am married to a LDS man No I have not joined the LDS church, But yes they are devote christians…
I have had direct and regular involvement with the church and you are right, Veronica, that the people are Christians.
However, the Church itself is most definitely NOT a Christian Church, no more than a Church founded on a reflection of the Virgin Mary on the side of a cow barn and so created a book of cow scriptures to govern their parishioners.
LDS has tried to bury a lot of the nasty bigotry, factual errors and shady history of Joseph Smith, and they rely heavily on the sheer ignorance of the majority of their followers (not the wealthy leaders, of course), but anyone who wants to research the church can discover that it is a church based on scams and lies.
And its power structure continues a lot of that scamming and lying tradition with it to this day.
The people are good, admirable Christians. The church and the very, very wealthy leadership which created, sustained and feeds off of it to this day are total frauds.
Tom
October 10th, 2011
8:33 pm
Man, I love this story: a bunch of whackjobs disputing with each other about whose fairy tales are the craziest! Pure comedy gold!