Transportation sales tax effort implodes

In theory, I support the concept of the T-SPLOST. However, I can’t help but feel like our elected representatives are passing the buck. Rather than passing a bill to raise the gas tax and dedicate the funds from that increase to solving traffic/transit woes, they window-dress their support for the T-SPLOST, all the while planning their “the voters have spoken” speeches when the T-SPLOST is defeated.

Sometimes government needs to drag the people (kicking and screaming) to a solution that they just might appreciate.

We elected these nuts to do a job, and it’s not easy, but that’s what they are there for.

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Skram: Nailed it on the head. If we want the masses ruling the state, make propositions legal and rename the state California. We have a republic for a reason and these clowns are booting it by kicking the can to a T-SPLOST. When the city dies due to an inability to handle its traffic, they will say it was the public’s will. In the mean time we build rural roads to nowhere with our scarce gas tax money.

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I agree Skram – we pay these jokers to make tough decisions – they should have approved an increase in the gas tax a long time ago, with proceeds to be used on infrastructure.

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Is centrist and mugwump the same?

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Is double and SPUSA the same?

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Centrist when you look upon the mountain,what do you see?Then what are your thoughts?

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double, be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter, and those who matter don’t mind.

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Bet you Jawjans will vote YES on the next SPLOST for a library or some such. You all tax the hell out of yourselves every time a SPLOST is on the ballot yet scream if the politicians want to raise taxes. Since those votes are 100% for SPLOST, I guess that means you are all for taxing others. Feel free to continue to ignore your blatant hypocrisy.

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I agree time is valuable. So is money for infrastrucure improvements whether for transit, water system and bridge repairs valuable. 40 years is way too long to wait for major investment in regional transportation infrastructure. As I learned with the city’s water system the repairs just get more costly the longer you wait. Leadership on tough, costly infrastructure issues is as precious as gold. Clean air is more valuable than gold.

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“Gov. Nathan Deal’s push to move the date of next year’s transportation sales tax vote…”

Gov. Deal seems to be in a big hurry to get his hands on this sales tax money. I was initially in favor of it, but his overzealousness is giving me second thoughts.

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Georgia entered the 20th century because forward thinking leaders (Ivan Allen among them) made Atlanta the transportation hub of the south. It was a corporate backed, government driven policy that literally paved the way for most of you to come here.
Today’s leaders, supported by an obtuse electorate, are as regressive in their thinking as the bright stars of the last century were progressive.
It is instructive that the buzz word pushers have even turned the word , progressive into a negative.

To the “taxed enough already” guy, if you think Georgia will be prosperous without transportation reform, here’s your sign.

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I am actually starting to get excited about next year’s elections since we get to vote NO when it comes to tax dollars for corrupt politicians. If you guys want to extend MARTA or build that stupid bohemian boondoggle beltline than get some money back that you have wasted over the last few decades. As to the fact that a NO vote means an end to growth in the Metro Area – well good. Growth makes politicians like Jackson, Young, Franklin, Deal and others rich, but just makes the average person’s life more difficult.

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Just imagine what proposed tax increases would be if the TEA Party wasn’t so successful.

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This TSPLOST money, contrary to the apparent thoughts of civic “leaders”, is NOT Monopoly money; it is not intended to fund so-called pet projects, but to be directed toward the “biggest bang for the buck” projects.

Running a rail line between two major points on the map which are currently served by bus routes is nothing short of ludicrous. The current north/south east/west MARTA rail system is probably the smartest thing this region has ever done to address auto traffic conditions, yet, on my two-to-three times a month ride to/from the airport, one continues to see miles upon miles of single-occupant vehicles sitting in stalled congestion. Transferring from train to CCT, one continues to observe the very same apparent aversion to public trans.

Virtually every metro area in the U.S. employs public trans on massive scales, yet this self-annointed “world class city” seems to shun this mode of transportation.

Before we start building more unnecessary rail lines, lets address the major challenges, like “convincing” the public. Build more toll stations. When the public has a choice between public trans and the “convenience” of toll roads and $5.00/gal gas, these idiot hicks just might start making responsible choices.

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Ole Guy:
What’s up with all this social engineering? I mean why can’t you just leave people alone and let them do what they want instead of trying to force them to do what you think they should? If you want to ride the train fine if I want to drive why in the world should your care?

Leave other people alone to make their own choices and you make yours. If you want to give more money to MARTA than I am sure they will take your check first thing tomorrow morning. Personally I prefer to put my money to other uses and guess what I should be free to do just that.

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Some of my Republican friends are really disturbed by all of this. They feel betrayed, and that you are forgetting your place. To here them tell it: We have a compact with these people. If we need government to promote our interest, they must pay for that through regressive taxation on themselves. In return, we pander to their prejudiced, Bible-thumping, gun-toting existence. We’re the moneyed class. They can’t really expect us to pay inheritance tax or much in the way of capital gains or corporate tax. Don’t they recognize that we have a duty to our class to get the “progressive” out of income tax? If not, haven’t we told them over and over again that “progressive” and everything else that is bad for us is really evil for them? All that pandering, and now they may not even vote as we expect. Maybe the “southern strategy” isn’t working out too well for us after all.

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I was ready to vote no on this matter then, last week, heard a talk on the subject. The speaker said that if the vote fails the projects will be done anyhow and funds will come from other taxing sources. Seems to me that the sales tax is the best way since everyone pays rather than a few of us. Let’s take our medicine (eat our peas) and select the lesser of the evils.

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There is an intellectually challenged element that thinks all you have to do is cut taxes to spur jobs and economic development; but studies show that businesses tend to locate in areas with there is excellent transportation and educational opportunities — both of which our esteemed politicians tend to disregard as evidenced by their funding decisions.

Support the Tea Party: Racing Toward the Twentieth Century!

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All these SPLOSTS are jobs-killers. Companies and good folks don’t want to pay for stupid boondoggles like these. Let the free market$ and the free market$ say we need more roads to move the vehicles that WE THE PEOPLE choose to operate, pure and simple. I’m working hard with fellow Tea Party activists throughout the fruited plain to STOP these stupid SPLOSTS and other draconian taxe$.
Amen,
Bill

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the TEA party crowd is not comprised of fiscal conservatives, just self-absorbed nuts prancing around in silly hats, waving cheap flags and trying to boil down extraordinarily complex issues into position statements that will fit on a bumper sticker.

+10

And, debbie, you can’t fool us with the “we criticize both the same” nonsense. You support Republicans even with their own obvious ethical issues (Graves, Deal). You are the Republican base dressed up with funny hats and dumbed-down-for-the-fools platitudes that mean little when exposed to reality.

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The TEA Party has always said they are conservative. What am I missing here? Of course they are going to be for the Republican party 99% percent of the time because the Dems are only represented by entitlement lovers and big government. Tom Graves might have had a failed business but he has not done anything corrupt while working for the people.

Not sure how this is so hard to understand. Maybe the Dems should try a different track.

On a different note, everything I am hearing is the House folded and the Governor and the Senate stood strong. The sad part is the House leadership are a bunch of moderates who haven’t passed a government spending bill or an abortion bill in 10 years. Maybe their members will wake up and elect some conservatives over in the House.

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Skram at 8:15 yesterday did get it right. This state is eat up with incompetence and spineless bureaucrats. People are leaving this state because of it. I know I know, most of you don’t care but you should. If all that is left are the spineless and stupid.

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Well this suggests it is time for the TeaPotties to step up to the plate and admit the fallacy in their misguided philosophy.
We need transportation improvements (roads, bridges, light and heavy rail) and our traditional way to pay for it is a FUEL CONSUMPTION TAX.
Raise the tax to a level commensurate with modern reality and current fuel costs (about 2 and 1/2 times it’s current paltry rate) and focus on STATE projects rather than these invented ‘regions’.
This whole project seems to have been nothing but a way to fund the various levels of consultants while new projects were developed. The likelihood that enough of the affected counties would pass the sales tax to really make a difference was always very slim. That the only multi-modal, fully functional public transportation system in the State was completely overlooked when planning this fiasco points to the narrow minded, ‘anti-Atlanta’ bigotry of the current House and Senate majority.

Keep it up, soon we may even be the laughingstock for Alabama.

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WHOA. This is interesting. someone writes that it’s good if Atlanta doesn’t grow because all that does is make politicians and others richer – that the little guy benefits none. Later, the same someone (SAWB) speaks of “social engineering.” So which is it -anti capitalist or anti socialist?

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Debbie Dooley: to say that Jan Jones is a MARTA Republican is laughable. Go back and read AJC during the time of the votes. It was Jan that would not budge on the amendment allowing MARTA to ease up on their 50/50 split. It is comments like this that give you no authority what so ever.

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Auntie,

I want to put that on my office wall!

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“The house hasn’t passed a spending bill or an abortion bill in 10 years’.

Well, Hallelujah! Maybe they realize that right-wing pablums like these are useful for firing up their ill-informed base, but NOT a way to govern. Just a thought…

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And as for the TEA party peeps on here: “No more taxes” without any consideration of what effect the proposed tax(es) will have is just blind rhetoric. There is a reason that the Chamber and most (sane) Republicans support an improvement to our woefully inadequate transportation situation, and it has everything to do with economic development and jobs, which tend to come to a region that has a desirable quality of life. Maybe check into that before you start spouting nonsense about complex issues that you haven’t taken the time to grasp.
And if you’re mad about Atlanta being so large and don’t want it to grow further (and bring in more of them fer’ners), fine! Delta’s ready when you are…

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@ Centrist – I’m certainly not saying that every tax is a good tax and that people shouldn’t be entitled to self direct as much of their income as possible. But if a particular tax produces a substantial return on investment for a particular jurisdiction, the Atlanta region, Georgia or the overall country, shouldn’t we as patriotic citizens support those investments? As I said, the verdict is still out on the level of benefits that the regional sales tax will provide. Once all the fact are in, people are certainly entitled to make up their minds regarding whether or not the 1 cent increase is worthwhile or not (using whatever personal criteria they wish, but based on the complete facts, not blind partisan ideology). To prejudge every tax as always “bad” and advocating that keeping as much money in my own wallet is always “good” (cough…Tea Party…cough) is a hopelessly naive, shortsighted and selfish viewpoint that seems to be all too common nowadays.

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@Open Mind – Amen!!!

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Mike it only cost a bundle if you are democrat.Any other party label ,and this was a legitimate up front loan.Seems no one knows all facts,or third party involvement.But will defend the failure.A settlement can cost,and normally does.

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@ Centrist – No, I haven’t seen the final list. In fact, nobody has seen the final list. That’s because what was approved on August 15 was a draft list which will now undergo two months of public comments, with public meetings to be held in every county. This is the time to identify the projects you believe are “boondoggles” and request to members of the roundtable that they replace those projects with ones you believe will create a better return on investment. That’s how the process works…somebody had to come up with a first cut at the list, the public now has the chance to weigh in, and (hopefully) the elected officials will be responsive to that input and produce a better final list in October. Deciding if you’re for or against the list right now is premature.

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Centrist, Jim posted a few days ago that Graves has 2 potential REPUBLICAN challengers. Kinda throws your partisan whine out the door doesn’t it?

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@ Bug (Aug. 24 8:27PM) You are incorrect. The sales tax gives back 25% to counties outside of the Atlanta region, but it only gives back 15% in the Atlanta region. Also, they are to use this money (15%) for additional transportation projects.

@ SAWB (Aug. 25 12:52AM) “What’s up with all this social engineering? I mean why can’t you just leave people alone and let them do what they want instead of trying to force them to do what you think they should? If you want to ride the train fine if I want to drive why in the world should your care?”

So you think that the interstate system was not social engineering? It’s a 2-way street (no pun intended) here. The interstate system spawned the sprawling mess that Atlanta is in today, and just because it is more easily hidden with roads don’t think that they are not also heavily subsidized.

Continuing to grow in the same way we have for the last 50 years is not sustainable. For the sake of the argument, don’t even consider ’sustainable’ in the sense of the feel good environmental way. Think of sustainability in the Republican fiscal responsibility sense. Do you think that it is cheaper to provide and maintain roads, sewers, water lines, etc. to 100 families on 50 acres (2 units to the acre per suburban standards) or 100 families on 10 acres (10 units per acre…townhouse density)? God help you if you think the suburban density is cheaper to build out and maintain for society.

I’m not saying we all need to move into high-rises, but we do need to start thinking about what type of growth and fiscally unsustainable patterns we encourage by just adding additional lanes to already congested highways and interstates. (Not to mention that adding 1, 2, or 3 additional lane(s) does not provide the same benefit of the original lane. In other words, because there are driver conflicts, such as people changing lanes, the benefit that you receive from adding 1 additional lane is less than the benefit that you received from adding the first lane. Each lane added provides less benefit than the one added before it. At the width of our interstate system, it has already hit a critical mass of providing little benefit for additional lanes.)

So, I guess if you want to call providing more transit infrastructure to encourage higher densities in the core developed areas social engineering then have it. But just realize that the subject of personal freedom and choice as it relates to where most people live here was previously decided by the interstate system and the social engineering it induced.

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Whether by another Republican, a Democrat, Libertarian or independent, Leaders who cannot live up to their guarantees in business life have no business as my leader and should be shown the door.
Yes, there was a settlement – a settlement between these legislators and the entity that came in to pick up the pieces of the community bank that made the horrendous decision to trust these guarantors.

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Well said, ole fellow.

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Get the picture: close to 90% of Georgia homes decreased in value in the last quarter. Foreclosures accounted for more than a third of home sales and foreclosures sold on average at a rate 44% lower than other non foreclosure sales. We say we need jobs. Here’s a blurb from the WSJ -
“Union Square’s continued transformation into New York City’s dominant hot spot for tech firms — with a dozen companies signing leases so far this year, including giants like Apple — owes a lot its convenient location and easy access to mass transit.”
Transportation is something that government does BETTER than the private sector. If you believe in capitalism and an expanding economy, you must vote yes to improve transportation. But if you are a nihilist ….

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[...] the original: Transportation sales tax effort implodes | Political Insider Comments [...]

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Alex

August 26th, 2011
7:41 am

Get the picture: close to 90% of Georgia homes decreased in value in the last quarter. Foreclosures accounted for more than a third of home sales and foreclosures sold on average at a rate 44% lower than other non foreclosure sales. We say we need jobs. Here’s a blurb from the WSJ -
“Union Square’s continued transformation into New York City’s dominant hot spot for tech firms — with a dozen companies signing leases so far this year, including giants like Apple — owes a lot its convenient location and easy access to mass transit.”
Transportation is something that government does BETTER than the private sector. If you believe in capitalism and an expanding economy, you must vote yes to improve transportation. But if you are a nihilist ….

I agree with MORE TRAIN POWER. But MARTA WILL NOT get a PENNY of this “FOREVER TAX” as NALA already stated.

It would be DIFFERENT if, when politicians said something, they’d actually DO WHAT THEY SAID. But they NEVER EVER DO. That’s why Social Security will NOT be around in the future–because politicians SAID it was for Social Security, but then started stealing–I mean borrowing, and not putting back–money from it. That’s why the Hope Scholarship and Pre-K have been cut–I mean “edited” because though the GA LOTTERY was SAID by politicians to be for those things, um, well, that pesky political way of LYING reared it’s ugly head, and politicians everywhere started stealing–again–I meant to say: “borrowing, and NOT putting back money.”

I would L-O-V-E to have a train system that is not only LIKE NYC’s but BETTER (since we could BUILD it in today’s times, we have brilliant universities in GA and the U.S. and abroad that could help come up with an UBER GREEN TRAIN SYSTEM, but it WON’T happen.

MARTA is run by RACIST POOR management–in terms of money. MARTA LOATHES black neighborhoods, and is RUN BY BLACKS! Just like, and I digress, DeKalb County (the southern end or “South DeKalb” is RUN by blacks, but is RACIST against it’s black neighborhoods with the TRUE environmental racism, and the lack of upkeep of ANY roadways, and the bloat of spending on everything BUT the black neighborhoods. That fault lies 100% with the black political DOGS and the RACISTS (again, black voters who vote black even if there is a non-black candidate who had done the job great, and should stay in office…but maybe that’s changed…I don’t know, because no NON-BLACKS ever run for office in South DeKalb unless they are Democrats, and even that is EXCRUCIATINGLY RARE) put them in office…. SORRY for the digress, though, just had to vent this in.

But these ROADS, these EXTRA lanes, I think THE PEOPLE–irregardless of race, income level, gender, political, or religious affiliation think that more lanes are STUPID. Just more lanes to sit in. And we ALL know that the “projects” for the interstates take YEARS and NEVER EVER EVER FINISH!

I HATE that I’ve seen “projects” that have lasted for DECADES–or at least, for TOO MANY YEARS of my life.

The Republicans in this state are the equivalent of the Democrats in the Federal Government.

THEY run out of money–therefore they TAX THE PEOPLE. THE PEOPLE didn’t run out of money from stupid wastes…typically, then the people don’t have enough money, the people can’t spend MORE. But the government leaders, are pimps. They do NONE of the work, but they take a cut. ALLEGEDLY this cut is for protection, like military and police officers. SO um, like, why does the USO have to beg THE PEOPLE to donate calling cards to service men and women so that these true public servants can call home once in a blue moon and say hey to their kids? Where’s the money? Poofed, be-gone somewhere, being wasted (and I have INSIDE KNOWLEDGE OF THAT–straight from ARMY BUDGET folk, but anyway)!

Why do police officers have crappy, ill-equipped NONE bullet-proof, bullet-proof vests? Because, even with a union, they STILL have to get money from government dogs, and those dogs don’t have the money, no matter how much we pay in consumption and/or income taxes because why…they WASTED the money.

Why do people who are “public servants” aka politicians, work part-time, and i mean MICRO part time–how many vacations do they get per year, and HOW long do they actually stay in session–they get Easter Break, Summer Break, Spring Break, what are they, elementary schoolers?

But it seems they aren’t hurting for money, bribes–err–I mean–”lobbying,” etc.

The government is SELF SERVING. And We THE PEOPLE are NOT the government.

We earn our money, or get our money from where ever, and we can’t spend it for them taking a cut! How many times can ONE DOLLAR be taxed? Aside from true values of money through talk of inflation, how much is the average worker’s dollar worth? It’s earned, at work. Then taxed once by the Federal Government, Once by the State Government, then you go to Wal-Mart or McDonalds and it’s taxed 3%-7% more, THEN, Wal-Mart and McDonalds pay tax on that dollar in the form of THEIR employee’s salaries, and THEN they pay their business taxes like, maybe before April 15th of every year, like the average person pays their income taxes.

AND THEY (the government politicians) can’t find any money?????? They earn, basically, stealth interest on 1 dollar, like, I don’t know HOW MANY TIMES, before that dollar, itself, goes TO THEM after April 15th of every year.

Somehow I THINK that there is a correlation between $8.00 Coca-Cola soda pop coming out of vending machines in Washington, D.C., uneccessarilly large security details (WITHIN SECURED BUILDINGS) in Washington, D.C., and SUBSIDIZED–I guess that’s the right word–FREE (for the politician) airline tickets for what would have been a 2 hour or less drive via vehicle for GA politicians when they are in session going to and from Atlanta to Macon.

This is NOT a rant, but rather a late-dialogue on this issue of taxation, and NO representation. NYC is different. They have an infrastructure problem, they SOLVE IT–so sayith a Brooklynite turned Georgian. But here in GA, we have an infrastructure problem, traffic congestion problem, school problem, pollution problem, etc…THEY say, “give us this or that in the form of SPLOSTs, if you want this improved.” And WE, THE responsible, forward-thinking, PEOPLE say, “ok, this is true. We DO need to fix those levies (New Orleans, Vermont or other New England), and then, we get sinkholes that come seemingly out of no where, flooding–that we later blame on Katrina–but in reality, wouldn’t have happened had the politicians USED THE LEVY MONEY TO MAINTAIN THE LEVIES, but yeah. So like, where’s the money?

Like Keith Richards after a concert performance–WASTED!

I respect, and actually LOVE your comment Alex, and Nala’s both to an extent, and others’ comments in partial, but I think that there’s a BIG FAT factor that we are NOT factoring in here that changes EVERYTHING:

Politicians PROPOSE (doing x-y-z with OUR money–tourists and locals). WE THE PEOPLE vote YAY. Then decades later, they STILL are taking OUT monies, but we have NO C-H-A-N-G-E, or LITTLE C-H-A-N-G-E!!!! And somehow, they need MORE money. And when you ask them, well, what did you do with the old money, they redirect us to their talking points via political talking heads either on Cable News, Free-T.V. local & national News, or via the RADIO.

Parties mean NOTHING. Politicians are the most self-serving public “servants,” EVER, and they FAIL EPICALLY, with spending OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY. Because that’s all the money they have–OTHER PEOPLE’S money. And all we get, if our “servants” are so generous are “public comment periods” and a paltry vote.

And even when WE THE PEOPLE vote to do the right thing. THEY the politicians–I mean LIARS–do the WRONG THINGS and just turn the other cheek to blame the other party for why they couldn’t do what they said they where gonna do.

SAME STORY.

So yeah, I wish NO argument here, about the gov’t does this better or the private sector does that better, because I believe that self-interest serves SELF, and is a poor servant to ANYONE OTHER. That said though, if Apple needed to build a building with share-holder’s money, they’d build it, and turn a profit, or their shareholders would DUMP their shares, and that would mean Apple would lose funding money. In GA State government, the GA (largely ALWAYS been a Republican run state–even when Democrats where in the more key positions) State Government says, we need to expand this parking lot or that parking lot–OOPS, i meant to say Interstate–and then like, decades later, I see the SAME construction trucks. HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO TURN THAT PROFIT, or to start reaping the rewards for WE THE PEOPLE? That’s NOT efficient. But to be clear, I don’t like government nor private sector because evil is as evil does when it comes to Man trying to run ANYTHING. The only edge I SOMETIMES can give to private sector, at least they know they DOn’t get paid unless they APPEAR to do something (self-interest). The government gets paid, because they just hold folk at gunpoint and threaten them with tax evasion or theft if they don’t pay their taxes.

ADIOS!

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