Tom Graves: No proof that John Boehner’s plan would prevent downgrading of nation’s credit rating
U.S. Rep. Tom Graves, R-Ranger, was the morning voice of the tea party today, explaining on C-SPAN’s “Washington Journal” why he can’t support House Speaker John Boehner’s deficit reduction plan:
Graves was pointed toward this morning’s editorial in the Wall Street Journal, which ended with this paragraph:
If conservatives defeat the Boehner plan, they’ll not only undermine their House majority. They’ll go far to re-electing Mr. Obama and making the entitlement state that much harder to reform.
Graves’ answer: “That’s an interesting opinion. They’re welcome to run for office themselves.”
The Georgia congressman said he wouldn’t vote to raise the debt-ceiling unless Congress also sends to the states a constitutional amendment to require a balanced federal budget. He decried Washington’s “compromise mentality:”
”Compromise is what’s led us to the mess we’re in right now. We can’t compromise our way out of this….We should not be exempt from difficult decisions.”
On threats by bond rating agencies to downgrade the nation’s credit rating if the debt-ceiling isn’t raised:
”I’m not certain, and I don’t think anyone can determine, that Boehner’s plan will prevent the downgrading from occurring. …We can’t allow a lot of this to force us into making bad decisions today. This is going to impact the next generation.”
- By Jim Galloway, Political Insider
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124 comments Add your comment
Jon
July 27th, 2011
12:34 pm
Graves is awfully full of himself.
Cutty
July 27th, 2011
12:39 pm
Someone with their own financial issues, advising the country of what it should do. Sounds like a winner!
td
July 27th, 2011
12:42 pm
Graves is correct. One of the credit rating agency said a few days ago that we need to cut at a minimum $4 trillion in the next ten years or our ratings will be downgraded.
Real American
July 27th, 2011
12:50 pm
This Tom Graves??
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/jul/21/graves-attorney-bank-was-at-fault/?local
that guy??
Cutty
July 27th, 2011
12:56 pm
td- So why not agree to Obama’s plan of trimming $4T over ten years? $3T via spending cuts, $1T by way of closing tax loopholes?
RBN
July 27th, 2011
1:00 pm
Surelly Tom Graves is running for hypocrit of the century. He borrows $2.5 miilion, which he knows he can not repay to buy a sleezy motel, hoping good old taxpayers will buy him out at a profit to widen the intersate offramp. When that doesn’t happen, he simply hands his debt over to an incompetent criminal and sticks it to the bank. Then the taxpayers had to pay for the banks assets when it failed. Perhaps he can find some criminal incompetent country to simply tell our creditors that they hold the debt now. This guy is an embarassmnet.
Road Scholar
July 27th, 2011
1:03 pm
“Compromise is what’s led us to the mess we’re in right now.”
Who compromised when they started two wars and kept them off the budget? Medicare part d? I’ say the GOP is gullible for thinking that trickle down would pay for our expenses. Boehmer, where are the jobs?
td
July 27th, 2011
1:03 pm
Cutty
July 27th, 2011
12:56 pm
First off, where can I go read Obama’s Plan? This is what he is saying but I have yet to see anything in writing.
I am going to go out and support a plan from a self described socialist (Bernie Sanders). He said we could save $6 trillion in six years by just stopping any projected growth in government spending. That’s right not actual cuts and no tax increases, just freeze the spending at its current amounts and do not let anything grow any larger.
jconservative
July 27th, 2011
1:06 pm
Cutty July 27th, 2011 12:56 pm
I completely agree.
Where I come from $4 trillion is a lot more than $1 trillion. And I really do not care where we get the $4 trillion.
I did have hopes that the Tea Party would go into Washington with the main target of cutting deficits.
Obviously I was wrong.
deegee
July 27th, 2011
1:06 pm
RBN, don’t forget mentioning Graves partner in crime, Chip, “What part of illegal don’t they understand?” Rogers.
deegee
July 27th, 2011
1:15 pm
Can’t we get some serious incumbent opposition going on a national level? The complaint is that the districts are so gerrymandered that no one will oppose the incumbents. I think that the American people are fed up enough that they will vote for a chipmunk before they will vote for an incumbent. You still have that 30% that is going to want to be sure that their vote goes to a good Christian with family values, but the other 70% doesn’t give a darn as long as their vote goes to someone other than an incumbent. The time is right for a serious “kick the bums out” campaign. If someone can come up with the filing fees and their last name starts with the letter “A”, they have a pretty good chance of getting elected. I’m thinking the first step is a “Kick the Bums Out!” Facebook page.
Centrist
July 27th, 2011
1:20 pm
Bonds are going to be downgraded no matter what. Obama and Democrats will only settle for accounting gimmickry (smoke and mirrors) as they can’t stand real cuts in spending. The markets react to reality.
Centrist
July 27th, 2011
1:26 pm
Try as they might, politicians can’t repeal the laws of economics or physics.
Just Wait
July 27th, 2011
1:31 pm
@deegee I have to disagree with you about voting out incumbents. Those that call themselves Republicans or Democrats are going to vote party line, regardless of the quality of the candidate. Its the “silent majority” that will decide if the incumbents remain or not. You see the chaos we have in DC today, and that is with only a minority of new people in office. Can you even imagine what it would be like if everyone was new?
Ol' Timer
July 27th, 2011
1:33 pm
Two or three things occupy my thinking:
One, when Gingrich speaks, he fills the air with flatulence.
Two, those who worry about Obama leading us into socialism or communism should take a look at China. Seems the American businessman had rather do business with a communist than an American.
Three, the Chamber of Commerce is really quiet as the country moves closer to default. I wonder why?
Four, as we get closer to the default, watch the oligarchs are they start shorting the market. It’s good for them regardless of which way the market goes.
Lastly, unless I miss my guess, Mr. Boehner’s career as Speaker of the House will soon end and he might be the one who presides over the demise of the Republican Party.
Selah!
DannyX
July 27th, 2011
1:33 pm
Centrist, wouldn’t the centrist position be something like Cutty posted @12:56?
73% of all independents prefer that option, as do a large percentage of all Americans. Your view on this issue is extremist Tea Party, just like your views on immigration are extremist Tea Party. You seem more extremist than centrist.
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
1:34 pm
Tom Graves borrowed money from a bank he knew he could not guarantee, and blamed the bank for loaning the money to someone the bank knew could not repay it. Where’s the same outcry that was so loud blaming people for taking out mortgages ‘they couldn’t afford’? The difference here being that many people who took out mortgages actually could afford them until the market fell apart. Graves knew when he took the loan that he couldn’t guarantee it. Principles are only courageous when it’s convenient to have them, I guess.
Ol' Timmer
July 27th, 2011
1:39 pm
And, may I add most of the Georgia House and Senate members to the list, including Gingrich, who when they speak spew forth flatulence.
The folks that elected most of these yahoos ought to have their Voter Registration Card recalled.
No Longer Republican
July 27th, 2011
1:40 pm
Tom Graves is a joke. It is no wonder our country is in such shambles as to have a man like that sitting in Congress. He does everything based on one question: “How will this benefit me?” Nothing else matters in his world.
Thomas Jefferson
July 27th, 2011
1:47 pm
Enter your comments here
RetiredSoldier
July 27th, 2011
1:53 pm
Road-
Several points, Medicare Pard D, valid point. The rest of that story is the democrats wanted an even larger Part D program so they voted against the rep. plan. Started two wars? Ok, I buy your point on Iraq but the “good war” per Obama was forced on us.
Speaking of war, I assume then you are even more critical of Obama, Continued the Iraq war using the Bush withdrawal plan, expanded three fold the Afgan war and stared a new war in Libya. Or did I miss something?
Thomas Jefferson
July 27th, 2011
1:54 pm
Pardon me, I stuttered.
Fiscal restraint is needed. We must work together to deal with the debt and deficit. But you don’t have to tear down the barn to fix a hole in the roof.
All kinds of information is available over the internet — information that will help to see what brought us to this moment. And, it is a shared responsibility and it must be a shared solution.
But, if the hotheads can’t be put in their place. . . .if they continue to call the tune. . . .we gonna find ourselves in a place neither of us wants to be.
So, I guess we should stop acting like little boys seeing who can pee highest up on the side of the barn and get down to some serious problem solving and compromising which, inspite of Mr. Graves idiotic statement about compromise, is what politics is all about.
Mr. Graves is a puppet and those pulling the strings don’t truly understand the gravity of what there’re trying to accomplish.
RetiredSoldier
July 27th, 2011
1:54 pm
No Longer Republican-
Guess you prefer Wu or Weiner.
Disgusted Republican
July 27th, 2011
1:55 pm
A lot of us seniors who usually vote Republican are also on Social Security (which we paid for) and veteran’s benefits which we earned with disabilities incurred serving our country during time of war, I,for one. have had a bellyfull of Tom Graves threatening everything we worked for with his stupid hardline “no compromise” attitude and can’t wait until the Republican Primary next year to vote him out of office. I don’t mind giving up a little more to help the country out of this mess as long as Grave’s ultra rich buddies who finance tea party campaigns pay their fair share too! But not if Graves has his way! I hope the bank that is sueing him for non-payment cleans his clock!
John Wayne
July 27th, 2011
1:56 pm
@Retired Soldier — Yea, Pilgrim, you missed the truth.
Clinton "Skink" Tyree
July 27th, 2011
2:03 pm
The truth of the matter is that the Tea Party sent a bunch of idiots to Washington. They almost sent a woman who spent her whole campaign trying to convince us she wasn’t a dang witch.
So, they sent idiots to Washington to act like idiots and that’s what they have done.
Frankly, I’m not surprised, but will be surprised if we hear of the Tea Party in two or three years. I think the American people have just about had a belly full of stupidity! At least, I hope so.
td
July 27th, 2011
2:04 pm
Road Scholar
July 27th, 2011
1:03 pm
You do realize how many American jobs are produced by the “Industrial military complex”? Without these (mainly union jobs) what would our unemployment be?
One could look at it as the wars are a jobs program for Americans and if you really wanted to be cynical then you could also say they are saving the environment by population control.
Monroe Burbank
July 27th, 2011
2:04 pm
Graves is a nobody, and unfortunately this nobody represents my district in Congress. Nathan Deal was 9th district congressman, running unopposed 4 times. Do you know what Pickens County has to show for their blind allegiance to these Republican congressmen? Nothing.
RetiredSoldier
July 27th, 2011
2:05 pm
John Wayne-
I’m honored, you were always a hero of mine. What truth did I miss?
td
July 27th, 2011
2:09 pm
Clinton “Skink” Tyree
July 27th, 2011
2:03 pm
“I think the American people have just about had a belly full of stupidity!”
What are you calling stupid? A Freshman group of Reps that were sent to Washington to rain on the status quo and to balance the budget? Where is the proof that the Dems are going to balance the budget? Where is the proof that the establishment Republicans are going to balance the budget.
BTW: Just giving Obama a clean bill to rise the debt ceiling is the same as going into default. Either way our credit rating is going to be lowered.
deegee
July 27th, 2011
2:11 pm
Just Wait, the chaos to which you are referring is orchestrated. The four most powerful people in congress have a combined total of 101 years of experience in Washington and this is the best they can do? It’s time to clean house!
John Boehner, first elected in 1991. He has been reelected 10 times with no substantial opposition, and even ran unopposed in 1994.
Mitch McConnell, first elected in 1984.
Harry Reid, first elected in 1987.
Steny Hoyer, first elected in 1981.
td
July 27th, 2011
2:12 pm
Disgusted Republican
July 27th, 2011
1:55 pm
I thought RS explained to you that only Obama will have power to make sure you get your SS and VA check. What about that did you not understand?
RD
July 27th, 2011
2:16 pm
Please….Throw all these Bozos out at the next election. What could be worse?
Smart like a fox
July 27th, 2011
2:20 pm
that’s sooooo rich….Tom Graves is a crook from Calhoun….Following in Nathan Deals foot steps….oops…does that mean he’ll be the next Ga Gov?
Ghost Rider
July 27th, 2011
2:22 pm
”Compromise is what’s led us to the mess we’re in right now. We can’t compromise our way out of this….We should not be exempt from difficult decisions.”
You are absolutely correct, Congressman Graves! For too many years now, compromise meant doing what the Democrats wanted.
Hold firm! President Obama is only posturing for the upcoming Presidential election. He wants to raise the debt ceiling AND to continue to spend this country into oblivion. Any candidate opposing Obama for election should have no problem pointing out the outright lies he has told the American people and the harm he has already done to America. If an opposing candidate is unable or unwilling to point these out, he has no business becoming the President.
One upset American
July 27th, 2011
2:23 pm
This North Georgian can assure you he didn’t vote for this man for Congress. He needs some serious opposition to run him and his kind out of office. Shame on you North Georgia!
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
2:31 pm
TD- No arguments here. However, why all the movement toward lowering the credit rating now, as opposed to the many previous times the debt ceiling was raised. Any thoughts?
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
2:37 pm
Ghost Rider- Hey, am interested in the details behind your post. Can you point out the instances of ‘doing what the Democrats wanted’ and ‘outright lies’ Obama has told the American people?
GaBlue
July 27th, 2011
2:39 pm
Sorry to be late, but I left a SERIOUS question for the Gopper faithful downstairs. (If any of you should be faithful enough to answer it.) Thanks!
Big Hat
July 27th, 2011
2:41 pm
And what did Graves do to bring an impeachment against that illegal Kenyan in the White House? Nothing! So he has no one to blame except himself for the mess the country is in. Ooops, Graves can’t blame himself for anything, or accept responsibility for anything he did; can he?
td
July 27th, 2011
2:44 pm
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
2:31 pm
I do not have the total answer but a good guess would be because our debt to revenue ratio is out of control. Sort of like a persons FICO score goes down when a person charges to much on the credit card. How many cities as states in this country has had their credit rating dropped in the past few years. I know Cobb county is one of only a dozen or so counties in Georgia that continues to have a AAA rating.
clem
July 27th, 2011
2:51 pm
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/07/the-chart-that-should-accompany-all-discussions-of-the-debt-ceiling/242484/
JSH
July 27th, 2011
3:00 pm
We need more people elected to Washington to stop this madness. The tea party people have to do something and draw a line in the sand. No more money to give away to hostile goverments or people not willing to work. No more free ride. Pay as you go, just like I do in my business and my home. The time to do something is now and its way over due.
clem
July 27th, 2011
3:03 pm
then you need to fix it thru the budget not the debt ceiling
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
3:23 pm
TD – Actually, I believe the Credit Rating bureau’s (Moody’s and S&P) have stated that the a credit rating drop would be due to a failureto pay interest in the ongoing or maturing debt, not the debt to revenue ratio. If that’s the case, then raising the debt ceiling now, as opposed to previous instances of raising the debt ceiling, would not necessarily be the driver. In essence, our credit rating could have been lowered any previous time the debt ceiling was raised if we had not raised it and defaulted on interest payments.
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
3:26 pm
Big Hat – Do you have any proof of Obama being an ‘illegal Kenyan’?
John Konop
July 27th, 2011
3:28 pm
When interest rates go up (tax increase on everyone) economy goes down further, all of you can give people like Erick Erickson a big thank you. You are holding out for the meaningless HOUSE GOP plan which does not deal with entitlements or military spending over the gang of 6 plan which does? Ron Paul is right you guys are selling lies! Why would you do this Erick?
……Erickson blogged Monday that he’s been receiving “call after call from members of the United States Congress” but did not reveal the names of any such callers. He wrote that he could not offer “absolution” to members seeking to make any debt ceiling compromise…….
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60027_Page2.html#ixzz1TKnFEUW8
THE TRUTH:
Ron Paul Shreds “Cut, Cap, And Balance”, And Basically Calls House Leaders Liars
……….First, it purports to eventually balance the budget without cutting military spending, Social Security, or Medicare. This is impossible. These three budget items already cost nearly $1 trillion apiece annually. This means we can cut every other area of federal spending to zero and still have a $3 trillion budget. Since annual federal tax revenues almost certainly will not exceed $2.5 trillion for several years, this Act cannot balance the budget under any plausible scenario.
Second, it further entrenches the ludicrous beltway concept of discretionary vs. nondiscretionary spending. America faces a fiscal crisis, and we must seize the opportunity once and for all to slay Washington’s sacred cows– including defense contractors and entitlements. All spending must be deemed discretionary and reexamined by Congress each year. To allow otherwise is pure cowardice.
Third, the Act applies the nonsensical narrative about a “Global War on Terror” to justify exceptions to its spending caps. Since this war is undeclared, has no definite enemies, no clear objectives, and no metric to determine victory, it is by definition endless. Congress will never balance the budget until we reject the concept of endless wars………..
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ron-paul-slams-cut-cap-and-balance-2011-7#ixzz1TKqKR4kx
td
July 27th, 2011
3:32 pm
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
3:23 pm
“Standard & Poor’s warned earlier this month that there was a 50-50 chance of a downgrade, if Congress and President Obama failed to find a “credible solution to the rising U.S. government debt burden.” S&P said it may cut the U.S. rating to AA within 90 days. Passing a $4 trillion agreement could prevent a downgrade, S&P said”
http://patdollard.com/2011/07/deal-or-no-deal-u-s-credit-rating-downgrade-looking-likely/
Clinton "Skink" Tyree
July 27th, 2011
3:33 pm
td — And, one reason the debt to revenue ratio is out of whack is because $2.8 Trillion dollars of revenue went down the drain with the Bush Tax Cuts.
Our effective tax rates, based on taxes as a percentage of GDP is the lowest in 60 years. And, you wonder why we are in a financial mess. And, I wonder why the GOP/Tea Party is obsessed with more tax cuts.
Further, given these FACTS, I cannot understand the reluctance to close some of these lucrative loopholes for the oligarchs and increase the revenue along with massive cuts. A two prong approach is only logical given the circumstances.
RetiredSoldier
July 27th, 2011
3:40 pm
Clinton-
If the Obama tax cuts were so bad, why did Obama sign an extension of them last December? That’s why they are no longer the Bush tax cuts.
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
3:44 pm
TD – The next line in that article you sent is probably just as meaningful as the one you posted (”The other chief rating agency, Moody’s Investors Service, said the U.S. government would likely keep its top rating if it avoids a default.” But, your point made. Based on that, though, I think your statement that “Just giving Obama a clean bill to rise the debt ceiling is the same as going into default. Either way our credit rating is going to be lowered”, is not supported by the Pat Dollard article.
Clinton "Skink" Tyree
July 27th, 2011
3:46 pm
@Retired Soldier — If my ol’ memory serves me correctly, Obama extended these horrendous tax cuts in order to get unemployment benefits extended. Seems like the House wanted to cut the benefits off and it was a COMPROMISE.
RetiredSoldier
July 27th, 2011
3:49 pm
Clinton-
Using your word, “horrendous” is not a compromise it is a sellout. His signature attests he supports the tax cuts. You can’t have it both ways.
Clinton "Skink" Tyree
July 27th, 2011
3:50 pm
Alright, Einsteins: An article in todays AJC on taxes and healthcare offered a couple of interesting FACTS.
One: We spend 17.4 percent of GDP on healthcare. The most of any rich nation. So wouldn’t you think that maybe a serious effort ought to be made to deal with this imbalance?
Second: Tax revenue are 14.4 percent of GDP, the lowest since 1950.
Thus, we have a HUGE SPENDING PROBLEM and a HUGE SHORTAGE OF TAX REVENUES!
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
3:50 pm
Retired Soldier – You are correct, the Tax Cuts have now been annexed by Obama. He was politically cornered into extending them, but he signed them, so they’re his. That would put ~300M of the ~2.8T in those tax cuts on Obama’s plate. The remaining 2.5T are Bush’s. Are you in favor of allowing those tax cuts to expire?
td
July 27th, 2011
3:51 pm
Clinton “Skink” Tyree
July 27th, 2011
3:33 pm
Those are not the Bush tax cuts any longer. Obama signed the bill at the end of 2010 so they are now the Obama tax cuts along with the 2% reduction in FICA taxes and extension of unemployment.
I have never seen a Democrat really cut spending (besides Clinton and defense only spending). I am willing to raise the rates back to 39% 2 years after the Dems really cut some spending and that everyone has a little blood in the water. Do away with the EITC and start counting Child support, Section 8 housing assistance, Food stamps, medicaid, Pell grants and have a true graduated tax structure (like if you make between $1 to $10,000 then you pay 1%) then we can close all those loopholes and raise the top rate again.
Clinton "Skink" Tyree
July 27th, 2011
3:52 pm
@Retired Soldier; You can call it a sell out or whatever, but the unemployed saw it as a freakin’ lifeline!
Centrist
July 27th, 2011
3:54 pm
DannyX – I agreed with the framework Obama and Boehner had with $800 million of loophole and deduction cuts along with the $4 trillion in spending cuts. But Obama reneged increasing his total demand to $1.2 trillion in revenues adding tax rate hikes during a recession. The cuts turned out to be gimmicks with toothless triggers, so it all fell apart. Raising taxes with unemployment over 7% (it’s almost 10% now) is economic stupidity and simply class warfare.
Now that the cuts are much less – the markets are going to downgrade our bonds. The downgrade will probably be first of many until they reach “junk” status by the end of the decade.
Clinton "Skink" Tyree
July 27th, 2011
3:56 pm
@td — If you GOOGLE U.S. Deficits there are some pretty impressive graphs that show the deficits under the individual presidents going back quite a few years. You’ll find that the Democrats have done quite well holding down the deficits since Truman until we entered the Global Financial Meltdown in 2009.
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
3:58 pm
Centrist – Can you help me look into the narrative you shared on Obama reneging, increasing his demand, and the cuts being toothless triggers?
td
July 27th, 2011
4:01 pm
Clinton “Skink” Tyree
July 27th, 2011
3:50 pm
“One: We spend 17.4 percent of GDP on healthcare. The most of any rich nation. So wouldn’t you think that maybe a serious effort ought to be made to deal with this imbalance?”
And we are the only country in the world that allows these multi million dollars lawsuits over nothing. We have OB/GYN’s having to pay a million dollars a year for liability insurance and practice very defensive medicine by ordering multiple test that are unnecessary 99% of the time. Would you think if these two issues were addressed that the cost would go down?
Centrist
July 27th, 2011
4:06 pm
@ End Hypocrisy Now – here is a link: http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/07/no-deal-debt-ceiling-talks-between-obama-boehner-break-down/comments/page/11/
Ghost Rider
July 27th, 2011
4:10 pm
“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”
Senator Obama – 2006
Which is the lie? Was it in 2006 when he made the above statement, or is it now?
Bill
July 27th, 2011
4:11 pm
I’m hoping when Georgia gets reapportioned that I won’t be in Grave’s district any longer. I didn’t vote for him as I didn’t feel he had the qualifications, integrity, or intelligence to serve us properly. He proves me correct each time he speaks. What an embarrassment he is to Georgia.
Clinton "Skink" Tyree
July 27th, 2011
4:15 pm
@td — so a doctor screws up and kills your wife or the OB/GYN in on drugs and causes your child to be an invalid for life, or you are misdiagnosed and have years taken off you life because of the carelessness or oversight of a doctor.
Don’t you think you should have redress under the system the Founding Fathers put in place?
And, besides and OB/GYN doesn’t pay $1 mil for liability insurance. The cost varies from state to state, but the web site Ask For Insurance states that the average liability insurance for an OB/GYN is $15-20,000 per year. Now, I don’t know how much it is, but to dismantle our ability to have redress in a court of law is an extreme measure.
deegee
July 27th, 2011
4:19 pm
Retired Soldier, The extension of the Bush tax cuts is an example of why it is so difficult to reach a compromise in Washington. The other side will dishonestly use it against you.
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
4:19 pm
Centrist – To be clear, in the link you sent me, it appears Boehner made the statement that the White House asked for an additional 400M in revenue, the article states that Obama felt the Republicans would not include any tax measures (not a quote from Obama, a statement from the article). I didn’t see the ‘toothless triggers’ that you called out, but maybe I missed it.
Thomas Jefferson
July 27th, 2011
4:25 pm
Back in my day we had similar problems and we couldn’t get together either. We had gridlock and
Alexander Hamilton was yelling that democracy didn’t work, that it couldn’t stand up to a crisis.
He went on to say that we needed a monarch — one person who could take control and do the necessary thing without having to wrangle with the House and the Senate. Ol’ Alexander even worked himself into a frenzy one day and said we needed a dictator!
But me and James Madison and James Monroe and a bunch of others hung tight and democracy won out — and that bunch of Federalists nuts went down the tubes.
And, so it is. Democracy is not efficient. It’s not pretty. A lot of dirty linen is exposed. But, the right results will come forth and democracy will prevail.
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
4:27 pm
TD – To be clear, lawsuits are determined by juries, as established in the Constitution, for both criminal and civil cases. If a judge agrees that a plaintiff has standing to sue, and then a jury finds on behalf of a plaintiff, then would you say that the plaintiff still has no right to the award Can you point out a multi-million dollar lawsuit over nothing? A lawsuit that was agreed to be heard in court, and that a jury provided an award for? And there have been no appreciable savings in Texas or Nebraska for insurance premiums, those two states being at the forefront of capping medical malpractice awards.
td
July 27th, 2011
4:27 pm
Clinton “Skink” Tyree
July 27th, 2011
4:15 pm
I am not talking about totally doing away with the ability to redress, I am talking about stopping tho frivolous lawsuits and the ones made for a simple human error.
I think we should go to the English model and the looser (law firm) pays all court cost. That way the frivolous claims would not get paid. I also think damages should be capped to lost wages, medical care and a small pain and suffering.
clem
July 27th, 2011
4:28 pm
one more time:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/07/the-chart-that-should-accompany-all-discussions-of-the-debt-ceiling/242484/
td
July 27th, 2011
4:35 pm
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
4:19 pm
I asked this earlier and will ask you now. Where is Obama’s plan? I have not seen anything on paper. Obama puts nothing on paper so you can not believe anything he says (example: Look what Ghost Rider wrote earlier about his position on the debt ceiling now as compared when he was a Senator). The last plan he submitted was a budget that was so bad that the US Senate voted it down 97-0. That is 53 Democrats said it was crazy. The only plan I have seen passed was the one by the Republicans in the house (cut, cap and balance). The dems in the senate did not even allow it to come up for a vote.
Ol' Timer
July 27th, 2011
4:36 pm
I hate like hell to look back because it makes me appear older than I am, but I remember when these ol’ boys would fight like cats n’ dogs, cuss up a fuss, then settle down to do what was right for the country, compromise and then throw their arms around each other and go out and have a drink!
We’ve got a bunch of weenies up there now who can’t pee without asking Limbaugh or getting permission from Dick Armey, Karl Rove, Roger Ailes or the Koch Brothers.
And, these freshmen who are stretchin’ their wings would be told to shut up and fill the coffee pot!
As Archie Bunker used to say. . . “Those were the days. . . .!”
Centrist
July 27th, 2011
4:37 pm
There were several articles saying the remaining issues concerned the triggers if spending cuts did not actually meet their goals. Republicans wanted firmer ones and Democrats wanted looser ones (gimmicks to avoid actual spending cuts). Supposedly, last Sunday Obama said he would again agree to the $800 billion in revenue if Boehner would back off on the triggers – Boehner declined. I don’t care to further look for the links – it doesn’t matter anymore. I was just trying to explain that a centrist is to the right of DannyX and to the left of the TEA party.
Boehner is not going to get most of the new TEA party members of the House – they are voting the issue their constituency elected them upon just last November. Unless some Democrats in the Senate and Obama agree to something Boehner can endorse – this is going nowhere.
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
4:39 pm
Ghost Rider – Absolutely, Obama has been hypocritical regarding raising the debt ceiling. He has apparently played politics with the issue. In 2006 he had the cover of being able to assign blame from the sidelines and attempt to get benefit for it, whereas now he ‘owns’ the actual problem. That’s political hypocrisy, and shame on him for it.
RetiredSoldier
July 27th, 2011
4:39 pm
DEGREE-
You lost me there my friend. Not sure of your point.
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
4:42 pm
TD – You are 100% spot on, Obama has not provided a plan. Harry Reid has, so we should be able to agree the Democrats have provided a plan, not specifically Obama.
jd
July 27th, 2011
4:42 pm
Still waiting on the trickle down from the 80’s — avg salaries were 30k then, and are 30k now…
td
July 27th, 2011
4:42 pm
Ol’ Timer
July 27th, 2011
4:36 pm
We are a little biased with your list. You could not think of one “wennie” liberal? Barney Frank, Pelosi, Soros, Meddows , all the “main stream media”?
Well give us a solution then? What do we cut (please be specific)?
clem
July 27th, 2011
4:44 pm
time for the 14th, prez should then hire bush’s lawyers who said he could do anything (hey we are at war) and then watch the fun in scotus as they try to figure out whether to rule for tparty or corporatocracy….
if that fails, how bout a war tax since most of the rich don’t have their kids doing the fighting
td
July 27th, 2011
4:45 pm
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
4:42 pm
When it passes the Senate then I will say he has a plan because Dems will have to actually cast a vote. BTW: There is no revenue increases in the Senate plan, only cuts.
td
July 27th, 2011
4:48 pm
clem
July 27th, 2011
4:44 pm
“how bout a war tax since most of the rich don’t have their kids doing the fighting”
Why was this not passed when the Dems controlled everything?
clem
July 27th, 2011
4:48 pm
good question…where do you stand
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
4:50 pm
TD – Then the Republicans don;t have a plan either, or did Boehner’s plan pass the House and I missed CSPAN that day?
td
July 27th, 2011
4:53 pm
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
4:50 pm
The house sent a plan to the senate last week that they decided to table. Why did they table the bill instead of debating and amending it and sending it back to the house?
Ol' Timer
July 27th, 2011
4:56 pm
@td — Everything should be on the table including defense, entitlements and PLUGGING the $2 trillion in tax breaks to the rich and large corporations that don’t pay zilch!
I think everyone should pay something. It’s unconscionable that 48% pay nothing — even if it’s $1000 — everyone has a vested interest in the success of the country and should contribute to its success.
I’m a flaming liberal and have been for 50 years, BUT I’m not stupid. This deficit and debt must be dealt with by cutting and by increasing revenue. Why can’t the GOP realize that the tax revenue as a percentage of the GDP is the lowest in 60 years and needs to be addressed?
What’s the freakin’ problem?
td
July 27th, 2011
5:02 pm
Ol’ Timer
July 27th, 2011
4:56 pm
I will ask you the same thing I asked earlier to Clinton with no answer: When is the last time a liberal has actually cut spending (besides Clinton and defense spending)? There have been promises many times but they have all backed out. I will support tax increases for the rich after substantial real cuts have been made for two years and like you said everyone has a vested interest and pay something.
R U Kidding Me?
July 27th, 2011
5:05 pm
Tom Graves on national tv talking about fiscal matters while he is facing mortgage fraud charges in civil court? What a joke and a hypocrite. What’s next? Sarah Palin appearing on Fox to tell us she just made a perfect score on her SAT?
Ol' Timer
July 27th, 2011
5:10 pm
@td — And, I might ask, when was the last time a Republican cut the deficit and reduced the debt?
Reagan didn’t. Bush I and II didn’t.
Please GOOGLE the graphs and look at the party who has dealt most effectively with the deficits and national debt. From Truman until this Financial Meltdown, it was the Democrats.
Bush controlled both houses of congress and the deficit and debt skyrocketed.
But putting that aside, why should that prevent an effective compromise in dealing with the present crisis that’s going to splatter into every household in the country?
Damn stubborness. The GOP/TEA PARTY would not support any program that Obama presents because Mitch McConnell spoke the truth: “I’m going to see that Obama is a one term president.” He didn’t say a word about doing what is right and best for the country during this crisis, his only concern is a vindetta against Obama!
deegee
July 27th, 2011
5:14 pm
The point, Retired Soldier is that Obama agreed to an extension of the Bush tax cuts at the request of Republicans in order to pass a larger stimulus bill. Now Republicans want to state dishonestly that Obama was in favor of extending the Bush tax cuts and so therefore they are no longer the Bush tax cuts but the Obama tax cuts. That’s dishonest and you know it even though you won’t admit it.
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
5:15 pm
TD – Thanks for the heads up. Too much work sometimes to follow as much as I’d like.
On spending cuts, I agree with you that Dems favor an increased federal role, so you’re likely not going to have many instances of them cutting spending. Gotta give Clinton credit there, though, as he not only cut defense spending dramatically, he deregulated the financial markets (in hindsight, not didn’t work out too well). But, it’s probably fair to not be one-sided. I mean, Bush increased spending very dramatically, and he cut revenues. SO, to say that you’ll wait to see spending cuts without revenue increases feels a bitt lopsided. Why can’t we tie revenue increases to spending cuts. If spending cuts are nopt achieved, the increased revenues revert to form. Wouldn’t that be the most down the middle solution? Granted, the spending cuts should significantly outweight the revenues, but why should one not be aligned to th other?
Ol' Timer
July 27th, 2011
5:15 pm
@td — It is very interesting that a war tax now is mentioned.
This is the first time since the War of 1812 that a “shared sacrifice” tax was not imposed on the wealthy to pay for the war.
But instead of a shared sacrifice tax, the GOP pushed through enormous tax cuts which have resulted in $2.8 Trillion in lost revenue in addition to $4.6 Trillion for the Ten Year War plus another Trillion or so for a prescription drug plan nobody wanted.
Don’t talk to me about the spending of the Dems when the Republicans have been on a drunken spending spree for years.
double
July 27th, 2011
5:22 pm
OL’Timer Amen.
deegee
July 27th, 2011
5:23 pm
Amen, Ol’ Timer! Can you imagine what the debate on Civil Rights legislation would look like in today’s congress? Thank God, it was passed during a more civil time in our recent past. At the rate we are going, the grandchildren of today’s undocumented workers will be retiring before a compromise on immigration reform is reached.
Big Hat
July 27th, 2011
5:24 pm
Proof? We ain’t got no proof. We don’t need no proof. I don’t have to show you any stink’n proof.
clem
July 27th, 2011
5:25 pm
yes old timer that’s what this article says:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/07/the-chart-that-should-accompany-all-discussions-of-the-debt-ceiling/242484/
but no one will face it on republican side.
i am with td, we need real spending cuts…..if not achieved then revenue increases, which were talked about beginning in 2013 should be rescinded. however, the cuts need to be prudent on a glide path and that’s were i somewhat agree with tea party folk we need caps, but they were too stilted on revenue generation….
go read market watch of yesterday in wsj where tea partycongressman sells out to big banks on forelcosure issue…why do tea party folks think their electees are going to help middle america?
Ol' Timer
July 27th, 2011
5:39 pm
@Clem: Please listen to a sane, rational ol’ man who was the VP of a Healthcare Co along with other responsible positions in education.
The Tea Party is being played like a banjo. There are some sincere and honest people who have been caught up in the rhetoric; but these guys are being manipulated by the super-wealthy special interests whose goal is an oligarchy.
They don’t believe the average American is smart enough to handle the demands of governance, so they’re in the process of using the Tea Party to do their dirty work.
The goal is control of the political system by the oligarchs, a diminished middle class and a large, poorly educated working class that can be treated like hoe handles — if one breaks just throw it away and get a new one.
I am definitely not a conspiracy nut, but the gap between rich and poor has broadened as never before in my lifetime. The income of the wealthy is increasing geometrically while the average working class stiff is making less than he did in 2000.
And, the GOP/TEA PARTY is willing to bring the government down to protect the tax cuts and tax loopholes for the super wealthy — loopholes and benefits unavailable to the working family.
The Oligarchs are in-waiting for the Tea Party to usher in their reign.
clem
July 27th, 2011
5:43 pm
how true, we all know deep down most folks have a price and even good meaning tea party electees eventually will succumb to the notion that they and their heirs can be part of that oligarchy
clem
July 27th, 2011
5:48 pm
old timer, any good ideas on how to get handle on health care spending?
End Hypocrisy Now
July 27th, 2011
5:57 pm
Clem/Ol’Timer – While I don’t dispute your points specifically, I think it’s important to separate the intent and the means. I don’t believe it’s an arguable point that many people truly believe in a smaller government (although it was originally argued as smaller federal, larger state), with a limit on the involvement and reliance upon the government. As an intent, that’s a pretty defensible position. The issue these days appears to be the means. These days it appears that the means by which some of the Conservative leadership is using to align to their agenda is benfiting a small percentage of the population, the status quo wealthiest among us. Break unions to affect cost changes (helps the wealthy and corporations), tort reform (helps the wealthy and corporations), tax breaks for corporations (helps wealthy and corporations), deregulation of the markets (helps wealthy and the corporations), et al. And, by no means is it a bad thing to help the wealthy and corporations (absolutely no class warfare here, although I’m sure that will be the response of some), as long as the help that is provided to those entities is commensurate with the help given to others. That’s where the current debates feel hollow. And, in practice, the wealthy and corporations are winning, and have won, class warfare. They are better off now then they ever have been. Kind of reminds me of ‘The War on Christmas’ (if anyone’s keepimng score, Christians won in a rout on that one). I think if we can get the equity of support, we can all benefit, and feel the same kinds of pain. Reagan raised taxes, and he spent wildly. Clinton raised taxes, and he reduced spending, G Bush 41 raised taxes and spending, G Bush 43 lowered taxes and raised spending. So, this is where we are. We need to make up for that imbalance, and the way to do it is through a combination of revenue increases and drastic spending cuts. As long as those revenue increases don’t stunt the economy, and the spending cuts don’t put “average” citizens in harms way. Plus, we have to rebuild our middle class. But that’s being driven moreso by individual debt (specifically health care costs and lost equity in real estate). I’m rambling, but the point is: spending cuts and revenue increases. Tie the two together, stop playing chicken with the debt ceiling, and let’s get back to equity.
clem
July 27th, 2011
6:00 pm
and it will get even worse under citizens united
Ol' Timer
July 27th, 2011
6:02 pm
@Clem: Yea. But I can’t explain it in three paragraphs.
I will say, however, that there is no will to deal with healthcare reform when the politicians are eating at their trough and carrying out their wishes under the protection of the recent Supreme Court decisions regarding political contributions.
As I’ve gotten older there are two things I’ve noticed. The two most important aspects of our lives — our health and our freedom — are adversely affected by ones ability to pay.
If you are wealthy you can buy justice. If you have tons of money, you can buy great healthcare.
The poor get screwed on both counts.
And, America is too great for that to be the case, but it is.
Ol' Timer
July 27th, 2011
6:07 pm
@EndHypoNow: What an oration. You’re my hero. We need to do all of the above — not just cut, but raise revenue. And, do it wisely.
Thanks for your wonderful comment!
clem
July 27th, 2011
6:24 pm
yep top 1% own 40+% of financial assets….probably more now if threw in real estate were middle america is underwater….so if we keep cutting them breaks that don’t materialize in jobs or trickle down let’s tax similar to other periods of time in nation’s history….my goodness 15% for hedge fund crowd, and saw somewhere top 400 richest taxpayers pay about 18% in income taxes
hl
July 27th, 2011
6:25 pm
Gotta say..Some folks need to read the Constitution. The President does not authorize spending. It originates in the House and they are just doing a dandy job of that.
The Republicans took over the House because they were going to create jobs…hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaha But at least their constituents are getting richer.
clem
July 27th, 2011
6:31 pm
you mean only a select few are getting wealthier
Ol' Timer
July 27th, 2011
6:43 pm
@Clem: I had to take leave for a moment, so please allow me to continue where I left off.
The nation needs desperately to carry on a discussion on healthcare. We need to have a national dialogue.
But it’s hard to carry on a dialogue when one side doesn’t want to participate. Dick Armey and his wealthy patrons published instructions for the Tea Party on ways to DISRUPT and DENY the speaker the opportunity to talk at Town Meetings. I’m sure you saw pictures of the riotous meeting on TV.
Now, we’re talking about 17.4% of our GDP and we can’t carry on a discussion and dialogue because anarchists, instructed by the oligarchs, disrupt and deny the free flow of ideas.
I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt. They just don’t understand that healthcare expenses in one of the anchors that’s dragging our economy to a halt.
But only when employers quit providing healthcare coverage, or greatly reduce their benefits or require a greater financial participation by the employee will they realize that this is serious stuff and not some little political pep rally we’re talking about.
And, this is going to happen sooner rather than later. Maybe then we’ll decide to act.
clem
July 27th, 2011
6:48 pm
is the health care industry just a jobs program, can it be more efficient (it’s gotta be more effective), are they monopolies and where does the money go….doctors, executives, stockholders, ….
know it is a complex subject, but after watching wendell potter during the health care debate i still would like to understand the main cost drivers….
and it would help if we quit eating all the greasy food here in the south
Ghost Rider
July 27th, 2011
7:22 pm
hl:
“Gotta say..Some folks need to read the Constitution. The President does not authorize spending. It originates in the House and they are just doing a dandy job of that.”
All spending legislation is originated in the House, BUT that legislation MUST be approved by both the House and the Senate AND survive a Presidential veto.
It is misleading to say that the House is totally responsible when it is only one of the three needed players. Obama has and is using the threatened veto power in an attempt to gain politically what he wants. The Democrats control the Senate and can thwart any efforts made by the House.
Just tell the whole story, brother, or don’t tell it at all.
RetiredSoldier
July 27th, 2011
7:35 pm
Degree-
Regardless of the reason Obama supported it, he supported it. If he was so opposed to it he should have said no. Principles are a good thing and have benn missing in Washington for a long time. Maybe Obama needs to rethink his principles.
RetiredSoldier
July 27th, 2011
7:38 pm
hl-
My remembering of the main theme of republicans was 1. repeal Obama Care 2. Cut spending 3. Create the conditions for private industry to create jobs by doing 1&2.
clem
July 27th, 2011
7:57 pm
spoken by a man that gets good healthcare…..
yuzeyurbrane
July 27th, 2011
8:36 pm
Rule or ruin is the strategy of this man with the choirboy face and his buds. I guess we have a preview of what the Teapeople will say when their subversive actions cause the very predictable economic consequences and chaos that will surely follow.
sho'nuff
July 27th, 2011
9:10 pm
How in the world Graves got elected? Answers (1)Political Backlash against the Dems that was greatly played by Repo-cons relying heavily on The Dumb Rich Money, brought into by average Conseratives who were scared off by relentless charges of Kenyaism/Socialism/Communism. He can’t even produce his birth certificate. Of course, Progressive Dem Utter Stupidity in not recognizing what was in their best interes, and just sat on their hands whistlingt. Because, you know Pres. Obama wasn’t moving fast enough to suit their taste. The Rich Repo miscalculated though because they thought they could easily keep those guys and gals under control. They would easily direct them to continue their RELENTLESS attacks against the President while they counted the Money. But these guys actually think they were elected to govern, which of course they are doing anything except governing. Their ace in the hole of course was to put the Total Complete destruction, i.e. the Economy totally at the feet of the President when the spent all of their time Obstructing, Criticizing, delaying, and their favorite Lying about his programs. To top it off, they promised: TO MAKE JOBS, their top priority. JOBS, JOBS, JOBS. Boehmer woke up saying that in the morning, and went to bed saying it at night. Where are the Jobs? But, Dems are equally to blame, again sitting idily by on the hands and expecting President Obama to do it all himself without any help from those from difficult, districts or Swing States. To me, that is a sign of piss poor Politician who cannot got out in their district and state and explain to the people why he/she voted the way they did. Example, why has Lynne Westmoreland not shown his face in the South Side — Harris County or North Columbus? Are they hiding from the people they claim to represent?
Finally, why can’t these idiots think outside the box: Propose legalization, regulation and taxation of certain industries that are begging to be subject to this. Why have they not Proposed a National Lottery of selling tickets for 50 cents a pop, and dedicate that money to rebuilding America. This country is in serious condition, and it seems that we have leaders making the problems worse by destroying everything. Small Government really means less Social Security, Less Medicare, Less Medicaid. On top of all these Wars and maintaining the Industrial War Complex. The trade off there is you get more and more teenagers returining from War with Lifelong Injurines that require Lifelong Benefits and Care, which people want less of the very programs. This is insane. Finally what makes it worse is the South is looked on, as being BACKWARDS, DUMB, STUPID, and UNUTTERLY RACIST, by many in the rest of the Nation which all SOUTHERNERS should actively work to Change. Just reading many of the comments posted here and comparing to comments posted on yahoo, msn and other websites, CLEARLY demonstrated how well thought out many of our ideas really are: informative, amusing and instructive! We must all work to lift all boats together so that everybody can prosper and figure out this changing and challenging world which we find ourselves in.
td
July 27th, 2011
9:59 pm
Ol’ Timer
July 27th, 2011
5:39 pm
“but the gap between rich and poor has broadened as never before in my lifetime. The income of the wealthy is increasing geometrically while the average working class stiff is making less than he did in 2000.”
My friend I hate to disagree with you but the above is not a statistically correct statement. In the late 1800’s and early 1900’s there were 5 or 6 families in the US that had half the world’s wealth. Then when you added about 5-6 more families in Europe then it added up to about 90% of the worlds wealth. There are plenty of people that have had significant increases in income since 2000. Most of them are either in high tech, financial, banking or on wall street. Did you know that Microsoft has created 3 Billionaires and 400 millionaires since 1990? there has been 2 billionaires and 100 millionaires at Google since 2000.
Tom "they knew I couln
July 28th, 2011
8:44 am
Sure, Tom doesn’t care of the our country has our credit score lowered or defaults on a loans – it has worked out pretty good for him.
Tom "they knew I couldn't pay the money back" Graves
July 28th, 2011
8:47 am
Tom doesn’t care if our country has a lower credit rating or defaults on a loan it has worked pretty good for him.
clem
July 28th, 2011
9:12 am
td, your arguments against disparate wealth accumulation are very poor to say the least
td
July 28th, 2011
9:21 am
clem
July 28th, 2011
9:12 am
My point was not for or against wealth accumulation. It was just to point out that it is no worse today then 100 years ago and really more widespread then during that time.
double
July 28th, 2011
10:26 am
GE just shipped out ton of jobs from Wi. to China.Presidents offical job creator Mr. Immelt president of GE.GE never paid a penny tax in 2010 to USA.
mum
July 28th, 2011
10:33 am
Ol’Timer & Clem, thank you both for the spirited, civil and instructive dialogue. It’s refreshing to see a blog discussion that’s not nasty for a change.
Clem I saw the Atlantic chart last week and it’s interesting that more people aren’t looking at it. To Ol’Timer’s comment on healthcare, I find it interesting that this debate has fallen by the wayside. It doesn’t take much effort to find the data on how much of our GDP goes to healthcare and that it’s unsustainable. My portion of healthcare premiums have gone up steadily for the last 10 years..long before Obama I might add.
clem
July 28th, 2011
11:51 am
your velcome
Dan
July 28th, 2011
4:51 pm
Happy to see Mr. Graves standing firm. All that’s been proposed so far besides CCB is smoke and mirrors and accounting gimmicks. If we do not balance our budget you can tell your kids how you failed them when you had a chance to stand firm, you were more concerned about getting your than and future they might have.
Dave Ebbing
July 29th, 2011
1:46 pm
We elected Congressman Tom Graves because he is tough in the trenches. He is fighting the fight.
I’m proud to be from GA 9. Keep fighting Congressman Graves, our Nation needs you.