The archbishop and Georgia’s illegal immigration debate
We are about to enter Stage Two of the debate over illegal immigration in Georgia.
With its endorsement of an Arizona-style crackdown on illegal immigrants, our Legislature has simply pushed past the preliminaries.
Archbishop Wilton Gregory of Atlanta, left, talks with Maria Elena Castro Malagreca at the state Capitol on Good Friday. Jason Getz, jgetz@ajc.com
Nathan Deal’s signature on House Bill 87 — the governor has said he will add it — will begin a predictable series of lawsuits, appeals, boycotts, demonstrations and counterdemonstrations.
We know that post-signature support for HB 87 will be peopled with hard-core Republicans and tea party activists. They insisted on the measure’s passage. But the most prominent face of the opposition may surprise you.
Its owner is African-American — and Catholic.
For the General Assembly may have just thrown a pitch into the wheelhouse of Archbishop Wilton Gregory and a surging Catholic Church in Georgia.
In a Good Friday interview on the steps of the state Capitol, Gregory expressed his disappointment in HB 87, a measure that he called “harsh and punitive.”
“I’m disappointed because much of the rhetoric — and I think a lot of it is rhetoric — is politically motivated and not related to the actual living situations of those who are here as undocumented residents,” he said. “Whenever you get into political rhetoric, you sometimes bring out the worst in people. You appeal to their least noble qualities.”
The Atlanta archbishop had weighed in on the issue before. In March, in a pastoral letter written with Bishops Kevin Boland of Savannah and Luis Zarama of Atlanta – the latter a native of Colombia, Gregory acknowledged the right of a nation to secure its borders. Like many others, the trio laid much of the blame for the current situation on a dysfunctional federal government.
But the three writers also upheld the Catholic position that “persons have the right to migrate to support themselves and their families.”
And on Friday, Gregory said HB 87, by allowing law enforcement officers to demand proof of legal residency, carries the likelihood of “families that could be separated and, obviously, children left without parental supervision.”
The bill gives short shrift, he said, to the role that illegal immigrants have played in building Atlanta. “I think people are being demonized. Many of the jobs that are being described as being taken were there for the taking before immigrant people arrived,” Gregory said.
The archbishop had just finished a blessing aimed at 150 or so people gathered at the Capitol steps for the start of a pilgrimage commemorating the Stations of the Cross — Jesus’ path to crucifixion.
Many of the faces belonged to native English speakers, but almost as many did not. They included purple-robed worshippers from Peru, as well as a young man in the uniform of a U.S. Army private bearing a name tag that read “Gutierrez.” The service was conducted alternately in English and Spanish.
As a denomination, Catholics have not been absent from debates over social policy in the South. But their numbers were too small to draw much attention during the civil rights movement of the ’50s and ’60s. Ditto with protests over Vietnam.
Over the past 10 years and more, Catholics have paired with Southern Baptists and Methodists to push through ever-tougher state legislation to rein in Roe v. Wade and oppose embryonic stem cell research. Yet they have always been the junior partners in the alliance.
Immigration is rapidly emerging as the first large-scale social dispute that will feature Georgia Catholics at the head of the parade. Catholic churches in metro Atlanta served as venues for many pre-Easter celebrations last week. Many addressed HB 87 in some fashion.
“I have written about it. I have preached about it. I will encourage the priests and deacons of the archdiocese … to raise this to public attention. I won’t be silent,” the 63-year-old Gregory said.
Should the archbishop become a major voice in the Southern debate over immigration, his is likely to be an effective one.
The media-savvy Gregory was named to lead the Atlanta Archdiocese in 2004 as one of the last acts of a soon-to-be beatified Pope John Paul II.
Before that, he was president of the 190-member U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and earned praise for his response to child molestation scandals that tore at the fabric of church leadership in America.
Gregory is said to be on many short lists of candidates for the red cap of a cardinal. He would be the first African-American to wear it.
In any fight over immigration, the archbishop would be acting as the principal teacher of Catholic doctrine in North Georgia. But Gregory would also be defending his church’s astounding growth.
In 2006, church registries counted 350,000 Catholics in the archdiocese, spokeswoman Pat Chivers said. The numbers didn’t reflect Hispanics who didn’t register — out of a fear that they would be reported to authorities.
“More and more people register as the trust increases,” she said.
Head counts in Catholic churches in North Georgia are now approaching the 1 million mark, with Spanish speakers nearly equal to non-Spanish speakers in numbers.
“We’re representing the people in our parishes,” she said.
- By Jim Galloway, Political Insider
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147 comments Add your comment
Ashley
April 24th, 2011
10:20 am
I agree with you wholeheartly @Tired of BS, not to mention all the fake social security cards and rampant I.D. fraud enterprises they conduct. What other country could you go to illegally and be welcome with open arms? The immigration laws in Mexico are much stricter than ours, now isn’t that a slap in the face. I don’t just blame illegals I put most on the offenses on slumlord landlords , who let them destroy properties and fly their homeland flag, is the the US flag not good enough for them? After all thats one custom of ours you could at least adapt. Another thing don’t assume I know spanish, at least learn some english. Until the Declaration Of Independence is in another language, please, please learn some english. With all the scandal in the Catholic Church you’d think they have enough on their hands without getting involved in Georgia policy. Remember Jesus was always putting religious leaders on notice, and not in a good way.
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
10:33 am
Road Scholar:
“with the taxpayers footing the bill.” They pay taxes!”
We have been up and down this road so many times that you shouldn’t need a GPS system to get you there. If they pay taxes, they pay the bare minimum, and it is not nearly ebough to offset the costs.
G.E., like all other companies and corporations, pays no taxes. None of them do, and if you think they do, you are truly delusional. Their accountants figure their tax liablility and increase their cost to consumers to cover taxes. The consumer (that is you and I) pay the taxes.
I will also challenge you, Road Scholar, to name any nation that has long survived which did not control their borders.
thenightwitch
April 24th, 2011
10:41 am
Just more money for the Churches. Hey, how about having English classes and teaching these illegals about American culture. I’m so tired of having to push “1″ for English. If your going to live here, then your loyalities should be here and not from where ever you came from.
eatmotacos
April 24th, 2011
10:49 am
test
Michael
April 24th, 2011
10:52 am
The vitriol here on Easter Sunday further shows that the AJC should end blogs.
eatmotacos
April 24th, 2011
10:55 am
@ Tired of BS
“The churches, farms and businesses who employ the illegals are themselves in many cases riding the government gravy train. It’s time to put an end to all of this BS.”
Prsident Eisenhower had a sense of urgency about illegal immigration upon taking office. In a letter to Sen. J. William Fulbright, received at his Villa Portofino office, Eisenhower quoted a report in The New York Times that said, “The rise in illegal border-crossing by Mexican “XXXbacks” (rooted from the watery route taken by the Mexican nationals across the Rio Grande) to a current rate of more than 1,000,000 cases a year has been accompanied by a curious relaxation in ethical standards extending all the way from the farmer-exploiters of this contraband labor to the highest levels of the Federal Government.”
“Operation XXXback” 1954
Once upon a time, the politicians actually represented the interest of the people who elected them. Unfortunately, we have returned to the “curious relaxation in ethical standards extending all the way from the farmer-exploiters of this contraband labor to the highest levels of the Federal Government”, that Eisenhower addressed 60 years ago, and there is no Eisenhower in sight.
eatmotacos
April 24th, 2011
11:04 am
The AJC has censored a word that is part of US History – the official name assigned to an operation implemented by the US Government. If you type the word, the filters won’t allow you to post. This should eliminate any doubt about the politcal slant of the AJC.
Michael
April 24th, 2011
11:10 am
They should filter eatmotacos.
carpetbagger
April 24th, 2011
11:22 am
Michael – are you opposed to free speech? Instead of arguing that others need to be silenced, why not confidently make the case for your side of the argument? Or are you just not that confident?
eatmotacos
April 24th, 2011
11:27 am
@Michael
“They should filter eatmotacos.”
Wouldn’t that be considered vitriolic?
Brian
April 24th, 2011
11:30 am
Enter your comments here
Brian
April 24th, 2011
11:35 am
Taco eater?– not. Idiot Cracker-Fascist. Yes.
Go to church moron. Love thy brother. Today is Easter. It is about redemption.
Or did your forebears go to “church” at the foot of Stone Mountain dressed in a white robe for a BBQ?
SuperGeorge
April 24th, 2011
12:06 pm
LMS;
I have been reading all kind of studies showing that illegal immigrants:
1) Produce a big drain in tax resources
2) Produce contribution in resources including taxes.
3) The contribution is close to zero.
Thinking carefully I see how some studies do not consider everything so I got an educated opinion and I will say I will start with #3) where immigrants contribution is not significant so my opinion is neutral in this issue but is not neutral in supporting a law that is sending GA back to the 60 s not respecting basic civil rights.
It also produce other kind of problems like undocumented immigrants are not taking with the police because they lost the trust in the police and that means more unreported crime and less collaboration with the police to resolve crime and law makers do not care about that.
Undocumented workers pay taxes not only with fake SS# but also with Tax ID # and some who receive income in cash pay income taxes with the “legal” tax ID.
IRS has no problem receiving taxes with a tax ID as long as illegal workers pay taxes so that’s the way they can buy houses and pay property taxes.
What nobody can know is who did help to build the concrete and the framing of a house, working in winter and in summer under the sun with a 100 degrees F.
Probably a Mexican.
Why we are in this little mess?
:
Why when GWBush wanted to do an immigration reform his own right wind did not support him and our senators in Congress did also vote against it not thinking that is a need for the State and for the country to reform an immigration broken system.
Why in Wall Street they did “create” 97 TRILLION in swaps financial mortgages to build houses we where not able to buy without a big systemic risk able to make a global financial crisis?
Why Allan Greenspan did pump money with low interest rates so long to make easy this housing little mess saying that “illegal immigrants where good for the economy”?.
Why GW.Bush this spend so much money in two wars and now the federal budget is broken and States are also with budget problems because federal gov can not help much?
Criminals from Wall Street are still free.
And politicians do not want to take responsibility for all their mistakes.
So we go against the social worker class with less rights and worse, we do not solve the immigration problem because illegal immigrants have a tremendous adaptation power.
May be they do not have a drive license to drive but they are ordering food to the supermarket and a legal one is doing the delivery.
Boooo
April 24th, 2011
12:34 pm
Please provide proof that “illegal immigrants” paid 11.2 billion in taxes. If it is State and Federal withholding tax, who allowed them to work and then paid them “illegally.” If it is sales tax, how do you know what segment of the population paid those taxes? If it is property tax, are they legal absentee property owners or vacationing visitors? If the source of the taxes is known, then the illegal part should be stopped immediately!
Too many Latinos
April 24th, 2011
12:36 pm
Too many Latinos live in this state, Republicans and tea Party representatives won’t EVER get our vote and support. This is not the right and humanitarian way to deal with our immigration issues.we must create a path for those ones that are here with US kids and families. Today you guys are hunting the Latinos, tomorrow will be Blacks, and won’t stop until you spread all the hate around our country.. Again , Republicans will never get our vote!
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
12:51 pm
SuperGeorge:
“I have been reading all kind of studies showing that illegal immigrants:
1) Produce a big drain in tax resources
2) Produce contribution in resources including taxes.
3) The contribution is close to zero.”
Cite your sourses.
One last time, name ONE country that has long survived that did not protect their borders?
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
12:54 pm
SuperGeorge:
I also picked up on the talking point, “Blame George Bush”.
You might as well go ahead and post that you favor open borders and globalization. Don’t “beat around the bush”. Announce it here, and be proud of yourself. I’m still waiting for the the name of that country.
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
12:56 pm
Michael:
Take a hike . . .
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
1:05 pm
Too many Latinos:
“we must create a path for those ones that are here with US kids and families”
Why the hell should the U.S. reward criminals? Illegal aliens violated our immigration laws when they entered this country illegaly. I’m in favor of deporting them – to Siberia or the Middle Eastern Desert. Illegal aliens think they have RIGHTS here, but I’ve got news for you. You are NOT entitled to the rights of a U.S. citizen under the Constitution of this country.
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
1:09 pm
SuperGeorge:
Since you’ve become so good at research, check what the national debt was when Bush entered office and when he left. Compare that to the national debt when Hussein entered office to the present time. Why, Bush was a piker compared to what Hussein has done – and he hasn’t even been the president but 29 months.
eatmotacos
April 24th, 2011
1:22 pm
Too many Latinos says: “….Republicans will never get our vote!”
The shortsighted faction of the Republican Party(chicken/onion/rug farmers,etc), who represent a small percentage of Republican voters, but can afford to buy the Republican politicians, have shown that they are more than willing to sell the rope to hang themselves, along with everyone else.
Thanks to the past politial influence of the chicken/onion/rug farmers, Georgia now has more illegal alien residents than Arizona, and you can more than double those numbers, when you count the hordes of Hispanic opportunists who have relocated here to exploit the subsequent social chaos created by the language barrier.
As blind followers of the Catholic doctrine, Hispanics out reproduce non-Hispanic whites and blacks by a 3 to 1 ratio.
If Republican voters want to retain political control of Georgia, they HAVE to wrestle the control of the party back from the greedy shortsighted fools who are willing to destroy the state and everyone in it for profit.
catlady
April 24th, 2011
1:33 pm
The archbishop can legitimately express his concern over any moral areas he identifies. However, it does not help his credence that the Catholic church would benefit because many of the IAs are at least nominally Catholic.
Perhaps his church would assist the home countries (financially and morally) of these immigrants so they don’t have to travel so far for opportunities.
anonymous09
April 24th, 2011
1:33 pm
leticia olalia morales of 15501 pasadena ave #8 tustin ca 92780 submitted fake documents and paid 5000.00 dollars to obtain a US tourist visa. she is now applying for citizenship.
Michael
April 24th, 2011
1:48 pm
Why don’t you all get each other’s telephone numbers so you can meet up and actually do something about whatever it is that ails you rather than just hiding behind the liberal, evil AJC’s blog. Or are you really just one or two people that use different names so you can have a heated conversation with yourself?
Connections
April 24th, 2011
1:57 pm
@Last Man Standing & company It baffles me that otherwise intelligent people believe the misinformation that is spread about undocumented people. They are NOT the drain most state. They are NOT eligible for the “programs” so often listed. They pay taxes, they CONTRIBUTE. There are a few areas where there are issues. Yes, They do tend to use the Emergency Room because they 1) don’t get health insurance 2) they take up more ER seats because they need a licensed driver for transportation & to watch their children 3) few other medical services are open when they are off work. 4) Subsidized lunch program for children. IF they could get driver’s licenses, they could have auto insurance. The state could charge more for driver’s licenses issued to the undocumented and at the same time know who and where they are. That would also add to the revenue stream. There are positive ways to approach the issue and Georgia could lead the nation. Unfortunately Georgia has taken the “low road” which is going to set the state back decades. It’s another reason for others to see Georgia as “backwards.”
SuperGeorge
April 24th, 2011
2:16 pm
LMS;
Nobody needs to be an advanced researcher to know how Bill Cinton did receive a big budget deficit from (Bush father) and reduce it so when Bush son come to office there was a nice surplus and the economy in good standing.
Only reading newspapers anybody can know that George W. Bush not only did spend money like crazy but also he did reduce taxes even when the budget was in red sending the dollar coin down the way in fact this increased de oil price (good for the TEXACO but not goo for the average American citizen) and then with the inflation crazy the FED had to increase interest rates like crazy helping to destroy part of the the economy globally.
Bush INC made sure to have government officials in the SEC regulation agency where the lieder was the kind of people who did work in the biggest accounting companies doing “nice looking Balance sheets” to pay less taxes in corporations.
So now is not a surprise that GE with 5 Billion in profit pay zero taxes and worse, many global transnational found the way to avoid taxes.
So the tax code is also broken and the tea party like it as they like the immigration system broken and States now not really knowing what to do.
So it looks like now undocumented immigrants are guilty from all these financial mess. But the true and the fact is undocumented workers are paying more taxes than American corporations like GE.
And even worse there are some democrats politicians did help to pass this kind of laws and GA now will be a “show me your papers state” and the police will need to start using GESTAPO old “science.”
If you want to know more about Bush financial crisis just read this from an economic nobel prize; just do the homework.
Paul Samuelson: Financial crisis work of ‘fiendish monsters’
“And this all could happen only because Bush, with his “compassionate capitalism” appointed incompetent people. The head of the Securities and Exchange Commission said I’m going to run a “kinder and gentler SEC.” What did that mean to everybody? Reach for it. Nobody is going to penalize you.”
You can find this information making a simple search in the internet.
Enter your comments here
Fire Eater
April 24th, 2011
2:16 pm
I believe that this holy man would better serve his church in rooting out the pedophiles than interfering in partisan politics by siding with the third world invaders of civilization.
Facts
April 24th, 2011
2:20 pm
Here is a question – What did White America do for the blacks that were brought in as slaves?? What about the Chinese that pretty much built the transcontinental railroad????
Germany paid about $70 Billion to Israel for what the Nazi’s did. Germany is is still paying about $75 million to 106,000 pensioners in Israel (yes you read correctly, they are paying those and they do not live in Germany), Companies have paid billions in compensation for wartime forced labor (slavery). And to this date Germany is still paying out reparations at about $15 Billion and it is stating that it won’t stop anytime soon.
What has White America done for the heinous treatment of blacks, chinese and native indians?? 40 Acres and a Mule? Reservations?
Really and people are posting about being right and upholding the law? Sit yourself down. Until this country owns up to their ignorance and hypocrisy they do not need lecture others about what is right and wrong. Especially as long as you think it is your “history” to fly the confederate flag so if you are proud that you enslaved people and built wealth of the abuse and lives of slaves. Please do not talk
TrishaDishaWarEagle
April 24th, 2011
2:42 pm
Its Easter! yay! To hell with illegal aliens today and always. To the archbishop..Lets just have the church pick up the cost for ALL social services , education, and healthcare for illegal aliens. If the church is unwilling, then the archbishop and the chruch can kiss my A**.
And to the rest of you abject idiots, illegals are not indispensable. I know liberals have a “if it’s brown it must be more moral than white” mentality, so basically, To hell with you…It’s become a bizarre fixation for you to defend an invasive and costly non native species. Liberals will be the dutch elms of this century.
Rick
April 24th, 2011
3:13 pm
carpetbagger April 24th, 2011 12:39 am
Rick, your comment “Well the Catholic church doesn’t have any right to make decisions for the US government and its citizens” is foolish. The Archbishop enjoys the same First Amendment right to free speech as you and I. Or perhaps you would prefer living somewhere like Pakistan or Communist China.
———–
Carpetbagger: Where do you get the first amendment right context from the following statement?
But the two writers also upheld the Catholic position that “persons have the right to migrate to support themselves and their families.”
Well the Catholic church doesn’t have any right to make decisions for the US government and its citizens!
The Archbishop may have the right to free speech, but the Catholic Church doesn’t have any sway in the US political scene. They might in the Vatican, but they don’t make political decisions here in the US. If I hear of any church supporting a political candidate, they will be reported to the IRS.
They don’t even have the moral high ground…they supported pedophiles in their ranks for decades/centuries! As an institution, they are a laughing stock. Glad to see they finally came around to believing that the earth revolves around the sun!
If it weren’t for their early indoctrination of the young they would be out of business (and it is a business) by now. The US and Europe have become much more secular in the last couple of decades and it won’t be much longer before the Catholic Church becomes irrelevant. They are so hypocritical. Their concern wasn’t for the victims of pedophiles, but on the financial liability of their parishes!
They have all these pompous rituals and they always have their hand extended for a handout!
They are only looking to include illegal aliens in their congregations so they can milk them for financial support. They have no compassion for the problems that illegal immigration is causing for US citizens! As has been stated previously in this blog, the Pope himself has recently stated that nations have a right to control immigration.
If you want to defend illegal immigration, then you and the Catholic Church should be draining your bank accounts to pay for the services being provided to illegal aliens here in the US. And those services would be more properly delivered the home countries of the illegal aliens.
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
3:33 pm
SuperGeorge:
You do know the difference between a deficit and the national debt, don’t you?
SuperGeorge
April 24th, 2011
3:34 pm
TrishaDishaWarEagle;
“And to the rest of you abject idiots, illegals are not indispensable”.
FACT:july 20,2010, ; Atlanta GA the roof was liking water messing all the living and bathroom whether channel warning more rain.
Calling 3 companies to fix the roof, 100 degrees F outside, 125 degrees F over the black roof. Nobody come 3 days. Finally a company with undocumented workers did solve the problem…
“It’s become a bizarre fixation for you to defend an invasive and costly non native species”
The fact is the real American citizen where Native Indians and the Britsh come here invading and taking the land AND killing many many. (Mexicans do not kill for the land).
British? Europeans? Non native species?
Then they brought black slaves from Africa to do the Job.
Lincoln had the same problem. Nobody knew what to do with the black slaves.
Those days the health care cost was going up also when was “legal” to kill the black slave because was ill and not good for work (like we kill today a horse).
Lincoln had also problems to count the black slaves with the census. But he had a wonder full idea. To give freedom to the blacks slaves to work, that way they can work and pay taxes and to pay their own heat care.
He did invent the “legal system”…
I was not exaggerating when saying GA is going back to the 60 s
Those days Dr King was fighting for civil right. In some ways GA is going back to the Lincoln age and to the Nazi-Hitler age.
And the church will not buy that because Jesus was killed using the same “science”.
Thanks to the Bush INC and tea party ideas that broke the federal budget for a generation plus the social problems not fixed on time now the government is needing more money.
And all this happened is Atlanta where we all know the city was “fired”in the middle of a cruel war with the racist flavor everywhere.
GA, when are you going to learn the lessons?
GA when are you going to stop the hate and bigotry you have in your DNA.?
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
3:43 pm
Facts:
“Here is a question – What did White America do for the blacks that were brought in as slaves?? ”
Do you really eant an answer to that question? Have you ever heard of LBJ’s Great Society? Most of the federal aid programs have been directed toward black Americans. Have you heard of the minority hiring standards imposed by the federal government and overseen by the federal courts? How about college preference shown to minorities, most of who were black Americans? In fact, that particular practice prompted a discrimination suit filed by a white student against a school because they allowed entry of a black student with lower grades at the same time the white student was denied. If memory serves, it was a medical school. The list can go on and on, but there is no need. I have heard it all – about 40 years and 40 trillion dollars ago.
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
3:52 pm
SuperGeorge:
“Lincoln had also problems to count the black slaves with the census. But he had a wonder full idea. To give freedom to the blacks slaves to work, that way they can work and pay taxes and to pay their own heat care.
He did invent the “legal system”…”
I never got the name of the country from you, but never mind that. Anyone who believes that Lincoln invented the legal system and wanted tax the freed slaves to pay for their healthcare is not capable of providing any logical answers to any question.
I believe “Sesame Street” has a blog. Why don’t you find it and start blogging there? I’m sure you would be impressive.
carpetbagger
April 24th, 2011
3:56 pm
Rick,
It sounds like you’re confusing two things here — clergymen endorsing partisan political candidates from the pulpit (which is forbidden), and clergymen offering opinions on policy issues to the media (which is not). You get pretty upset over him expressing his opinion. Would you get this upset over, say, a Methodist minister or Baptist preacher saying the same thing? You bring up a lot of other stuff, from rituals to scandals, that have absolutely nothing to do with the immigration issue and aren’t worthy of a response. Don’t religious leaders of most denominations seek, in some way, to influence the direction of public policy by making statements on issues? I’m sure that during the civil rights era, particularly in the 1960s, there were those who wanted MLK Jr. and other clergy to STHU about the discrimination that was taking place. I’m glad they didn’t listen.
It’s clear to me from that paragraph in the CCC that the Church is saying that our elected officials have considerable leeway to exercise prudential judgment in dealing with this issue, which is why I support HB 87 and disagree with my Archbishop (in case I haven’t made that clear already).
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
4:00 pm
Connections:
The hour grows late for me to be sitting here and typing.
You said that illegal aliens don’t get the services I mentioned. If an illegal alien has an “anchor baby”, they DO get these services because of the child. How many of the illegal aliens have “anchor babies”, or will try to have an “anchor baby”? That baby makes all the difference in the world as to what they can get. When you plug that baby into the equation, ALL doors open to food stamps, Section 8 housing, Social Security and everything else that is “free”.
Suggest that you do a little more study on the subject.
double
April 24th, 2011
4:34 pm
Like it or not this country will become darker.The citizens legal or illegal will be brown.The white man becomes indistinct.the government will be brown or black,more slant eyed.The jew will still control,just different people.
SuperGeorge
April 24th, 2011
4:35 pm
LMS
Of course I know the difference, I am an economist with two University degrees.
Anybody can know the difference just reading wikipedia and places like
This; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
The day that immigrants will destroy de economy you will read it in Wikipedia not in Sesame Street.
For now I do know about the 500 Trillion financial mess in derivatives in Wall Street and 500 Trillion dollars is non existent money. That’s the financial crisis.
The points here are
:
1) Illegal workers pay more taxes than much ignorant people who believe they pay nothing. And they can pay more doing the right legislation.
2) The new tea party age with the idea of low taxes is not working good.
Low taxes are good when budgets are healthy.
3) Illegal immigrants are humans and you can not treat them like an animal or using the Nazi approach. we are in the 21 Century.
4) The immigration system is broken and flawed laws like HB 87 are just a bad patch and it will not solve a complex problems like immigration.
I do believe more in Wikipedia than Sesame Street because it helps ignorant people a lot more to get out of the poor education.
Connections
April 24th, 2011
4:36 pm
@Last Man Standing
Those you refer to as “Anchor Babies” are citizens of the USA. People! The benefits they are eligible for are based on their standing. The child is eligible for Social Security in certain situation, such as disability, but not their undocumented parent. Food stamps can be obtained for the citizen child, not the undocumented parent. Undocumented parents prefer NOT to deal with government entities. They do not come here looking for handouts. Or to expand their families. Going to a foreign land, where you don’t know the language, laws or customs is NOT someone embarking upon an “Excellent Adventure.” They come WILLING to WORK. That has been the case with immigration in this country since it was formed. The work ethic these immigrants bring with them is a threat to many here, Many have been here for years, speak English and are productive members of our communities. Some where brought here as children and are now grown and have no reasonable path to legalizing their status.
Unfortunately, some who are accustomed to doing the minimum and expecting praise and raises, based not on productivity but rather “standing,” seem particularly opposed to the presence of new immigrants.
Do I support “illegal immigration?” NO! But I do understand why it happens and can see the situation from multiple views, rather than one narrow approach. It’s misinformation when someone says the undocumented person is “collecting” is extremely troubling when it is the CITIZEN child who is eligible. If you feel it’s time to amend the constitution, feel free. But creating different laws in 50 different states and all the US territories is going to create a NIGHTMARE. We will no longer be the UNITED States of America.
Many see brown skin and ASSUME illegal, when in fact, their targets, are those whose families have been citizens by birth for multiple generations. Employers pay those people less than their black or white counterparts. Business and medical professionals discriminate too. Why? Because of the bias spreading throughout this country against this segment of our population. It’s wrong!
Barbara Caggiano
April 24th, 2011
4:39 pm
I love my Faith, but have HUGE problems with the Church! As a still practicing Catholic, I have to scratch my head at the hyprocracy within the Church. We are drilled that we need to obey the laws of the Church, but the Church oversteps the laws when it feels as if it suits it. I am not only referring ot the widely publicized lawsuits of recent. Where was the Catholic Church defending the Jews when they were being slaughtered by Hitler and his people? It was hiding Nazi’s so they wouldn’t be persecuted by the legal law of the land. I was once going to confession and was asked by the Priest who seemed to be enjoying yelling at the people in the confessional whether I had a boyfriend, I stated yes, I was then asked if I was married, I said no. I was then asked if I was living with my boyfriend (the man who I eventually married) and I said yes. I was then hit with an assault by this priest that I was going to burn in hell, that I had better leave the Church, that I wasn’t going to be able to receive the Sacraments because I was living in sin; until I got my life in order. This was the same Church that had a Mass the previous weekend for the Gays and Lesbians. My husband who I was married to, and yes was the subject of me getting kicked out of the confessional, went to our Parish Priest who was getting ready to leave to Study Cannon Law in Rome, about going through infertility treatment; he told us as long we were just trying to procreate and not create a super human being or sex select the child, that he didn’t see what was wrong with it and gave us the okay. We were trying to a second child when a visiting priest heard my confession, again asked me questions about my family etc. and the subject came around to our potentially growing family. I was told by this visiting priest that I had committed adultry by conceving the first child, and that God would forgive me, but I was to not let it happen again. My husband passed away, I was destitute, and went to Catholic Community services in the Puget Sound area to ask for help; I was turned away; we literally had no food and I had been selling off what we owned of value to keep a roof over our head; this agency was busy at the time helping refugees from other countries, which I am all for; but what is a Church if it does not take care of it’s own local congregation? It may sound noble to help other Countries out, but what about the poor here in this country who fall through the cracks every day? Not even only talking about myself back then. What about Americans today who are falling below the poverty level and need a helping hand? Other Churches take care of their own and their community before they take care of others, or in addition to taking care of others? I am so sick of being told, well if you don’t like what this priest says… then go to the church down the street, what they have to say is better. The Catholic Church did not take care of the Jews because they were not of the same faith; they are pushing to take care of the Mexican and Latino illegals because it will grow the Catholic faith in numbers within the borders of the US, which will put money in their pockets. Nevermind the already lost souls here in the US which they should be trying to show some compassion towards. We have to obey the laws, even though our country and our church is giving it to us up the shorts, but the church and government wants us to go along with allowing law breakers to continue breaking the law for their own self serving purposes, it isn’t even God’s purpose….. if the Catholic Church cared they would be
Barbara Caggiano
April 24th, 2011
4:44 pm
helping and working to make life better for those in their own countries, we sent NAFTA down there and it’s up to those to fight to make their laws and life better just as they have done in other places of the world, instead of crashing our economy or contributing more to crashing our economy by taking from us and giving to them. I have no problem giving to my neighbor, but that doesn’t mean I am going to sacrifice others or myself for the good of an agenda, I see the illegals as an agenda for the Catholic Church, you and I have to follow the rules and laws…or it’s a sin,,,,, but for others….. as long as it’s helping their agenda, in this case parish numbers… then we are supposed to be all for it… when I see a Catholic organization, church or whatever reaching out to a Jew or Baptist country or community then we will talk.
Barbara Caggiano
April 24th, 2011
5:10 pm
Super George, this is about the Catholic Church bringing 3rd world Catholics here and look like the hero; but it’s really being done to rebuild their congregations due to the corruptness of the Church here in the US and around the world; they have lost the many generations of Catholics and need these new comers to pay their salaries and keep on the lights somehow. The churches on the west coast are going broke and closing; one priest is fanned across two or three parishes. Sorry to say, the Church needs to start taking are of, and making amends for the abuses it caused here, and rebuild itself. It needs to start taking care of the fellow citizens of the US who are not Catholic; and it it’s so on the bandwagon of taking care of the world, then why don’t you see the Church stepping in to help Jews, Baptists, Muslims, etc. The innocence of the faith is gone, it’s now the business of doing what needs to be done to keep a corporation alive. Just as the innocence of this once great government is gone; it’s about serving the wealthiest in this nation as the rest of the country’s expense.
Barbara Caggiano
April 24th, 2011
5:19 pm
Facts: get your facts straight; the Irish and the Italians were also used in the same manner as the slaves and Chinese. In fact, Irish were not considered part of the white race until the late 1960’s or early 1970’s. I know because I am partly Irish descent and remember on the standardized tests wondering if I should stand up for my white (German) heritage, or my non-white (Irish) heritage.
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
5:20 pm
SuperGeorge:
“Of course I know the difference, I am an economist with two University degrees.”
Where were those two university degrees earned?
deegee
April 24th, 2011
5:34 pm
Amen, Quiet Neighbor! I have been a lot less quiet lately when my bigoted neighbors assume I feel the same way they do about things. I let some obnoxious gasbag know that he could find a lot of people that would be happy to engage in his bigoted conversation but I wasn’t one of them.
SuperGeorge
April 24th, 2011
5:48 pm
Barbara Caggiano :
I like your words because there is no hate and bigotry and looks like you try to find the causes of the immigration problem.
Not like LMS in this blog, who instead of making a real contribution to the ideas ask thinks like where did you get your two university degrees.
The reason why I do blog is to contribute with ideas. I do not like to debate about racial problems.
I know that if you do not find the causes of a problem, will be almost impossible to find how to solve it. I have been educated that way.
In an immigration blog I did find this information that can help to find the causes of this immigration problem.
“ The Media Consortium, an independent journalism organization, suggests that U.S. businesses are a major reason that so many illegal immigrants are trying to cross the border, explaining that NAFTA’s free trade agreements have taken businesses away from low-wage countries in Latin America.
While NAFTA created considerable economic opportunities for U.S. businesses eager to conduct business in low-wage Mexico, it also allowed American farmers to flood the Mexican market with government-subsidized corn–destroying the country’s own corn industry and bankrupting thousands of agricultural workers.
President Obama’s most recent tour of Latin America was marked by strong protests and political resistance from lower-class workers eager to renegotiate international trade agreements.”
I do not have any research that support these ideas because I do not have the time to do it but somebody who read it make help.
May be somebody in the AJC.
Barbara Caggiano
April 24th, 2011
5:51 pm
To Super George. Glad you aren’t down on the Socio-economic scale, but for those of us who are… I have been applying for these jobs you listed and they aren’t available. Yes, there are LEGAL Americans who would gladly work these jobs… two or three of them at one time, in fact, to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table for our families, along with paying the taxes and paying for education for our children.
You may be able to wipe your children butts but who is the day care provider?
Who is cleaning their schools?
Bagging your groceries?
Who where building your houses?
Look deeper.
Your not doing it all on your own.
You are spouting a myth that Americans won’t work these jobs. Me and many like me are willing and trying to work these jobs to feed and house our families and we are LEGAL!
It comes up in states every year; follow what’s going on in your local politics that Illegals are demanding that they get tuition breaks and financial aid along with in state residency to send themselves and their children to college. We don’t offer that to our own American citizens, why should illegals from any country be allowed to go to the head of the line. What also about the many, many, many people who have applied to LEGALLY immigrate to the US who are being denied and are on a waiting list for well over a decade? Why is there so much support for those who are breaking the law to take what isn’t their’s to be taken?
Barbara Caggiano
April 24th, 2011
6:20 pm
Super George, I don’t like this debate either, and believe me, I am not racist. My family is very mixed both race-wise and Religious wise. I am one struggling American who has taken it up the shorts for trying to do the right thing in life. I want to follow my faith, work hard, contribute and give to my neighbor, be a good parent, pay taxes, do volunteer work and maybe still have something left over to enjoy in life. This isn’t the way life is turning out. I am a few credits short of a Bachelors degree, have two AA degrees, have worked since the age of 9 picking berries and veggies in the summertime when I was a child.
I tend to see things as black and white after watching the Church bring a lot of gray area into the mix and convoluting what is right and wrong. I suppose I have become jaded over the years when I see those breaking the law, and pushing it off as something legal get ahead at the expense of others. I pray every day that there is world peace; I don’t like conflict but have lately realized that I have to speak out or I am part of the problem. I learned and hopefully live my grandmother’s life where if someone came to my door; anyone, that I would give them what I have of my own if they needed it whether it be food, clothing, etc. I do resent however, when I am trying to get by on a daily basis and in the past decade it’s become quite a struggle,
I have gone from eating dinner at the Governor’s mansion and being a memeber at a country club to going three days at a time without anything to eat so my son had food. I know what it’s like to go from business to business asking if they have work for the day so I have something to keep alfoat with, while I spend the rest of my day scouring for a permanent job. I know nothing is permanent and those on the top can find themselves on the bottom; and those on the bottom, if they don’t give up can move up.
I have never been on welfare or used food stamps. But I have to admit that I am frustrated when I see others going through what I have gone through and not being able to make it or get by. I loathe the lazy ones who feed of the system and abuse government services that are there to give someone a hand up. I am too proud to use those services which is probably why I suffered so much when things were really bad.
I am middle aged and know I will be working until I drop dead; but I have passed the golden years when employers were clammering for my inexperience and youth. Right now I just want to work and get my son through college so I don’t have to watch him go through what I am going through. I would gladly work three jobs to do so. When I was going to college, I was going to become a teacher, and learned that I needed to know so I had something to teach. My focus, even though it wasn’t a useful tool towards teaching was cultural studies and world migration; I was hoping to become a Math and Science teacher for elementary students; a dual degree.
Please don’t think I am picking at you on this blog. I give what you have to say credibility unlike a few of the other posts here. I think the time of being politically correct has long passed in this country and it’s about time we have an honest discussion about issues, and learn that it’s okay to agree to disagree. Maybe I am posting here, because I have left in the middle of Mass when they have started talks about how I should be allowing of others to live their lives and break the law and support it. I wrestle with it every day in my thoughts. I get frustrated when I get turned down for jobs that I am over qualified for, but would be happy and have a great attitude about just having the job. I would be the best employee they ever hired and give any job whatever I had to give physically, mentallly and emotionally.
I will never break the law in order to get ahead, and hopefully God will have mercy on me for thinking and being the way I am when it comes time for me to stand at judgement. I wish there was no poverty, hunger, turmoil, hate; and I am kind of old fashioned because I believe in a way that going through these hardships that our country is going through will make us bond as a nation and realize what is important again. I am guilty of not caring as much when I was doing better in life, because I was too busy enjoying the finer things that life had to offer, and they became more important than what was really important. I think I have discovered though that the jobs that are being argued about on this blog, are the Blue collar jobs; I have discovered that i would much rather live the life of a blue collared person than hold a White collar job and live that lifestyle again. The blue collar people are much kinder in a lot of ways and have a better grasp on the realities of life, even though most of these people aren’t papered with a degree. It would however, be great if every American could be awarded the chance to learn if they chose to learn, that way we wouldn’t have such ignorance in this country; but I do believe life credit should be given for living and walking a day in someone elses shoes.
Thank you for taking the time to share your ideas and thoughts on here.
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
6:26 pm
SuperGeorge:
“Not like LMS in this blog, who instead of making a real contribution to the ideas ask thinks like where did you get your two university degrees.”
You were the one who made the assertion that you held the degrees. Your not answering the questions speaks volumes to me.
I think that you and I have nothing left to discuss.
Last Man Standing
April 24th, 2011
6:47 pm
Connections:
I am beginning to think that it is useless to worry about illegal immigration, the deficit, the national debt and redistribution of wealth. The confiscation of corporations by the fed and socialized healthcare probably don’t matter either,
The U.S., if it continues its’ current course, has a limited life futue, and will cease to exist as a nation in a very short period of time. I only wonder if those who supported the “open borders”, globalization and “cradle to grave” mentality will realize then that their foolish support of these things brought this once-great nation down?
As your president said, “We live in the greatest nation on Earth. Tomorrow we will begin to fundamentally change . . . “