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Grover Norquist on when a fee increase isn’t a tax hike

2:17 pm March 9, 2010, by jgalloway

The anti-tax rally at the state Capitol finished a few minutes ago, and it’s not clear that Georgia’s lawmakers got the special dispensation they’d hoped for.

A significant weekday crowd showed up for the event, which featured Grover Norquist, the president of Americans for Tax Reform.

Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform

Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform

Said Norquist:

“Tax increases – and here they’re talking about taxes on HMOs, taxing tobacco, a tax on hospital beds, dozens and dozens of fees, innumerable number of tax increases are on the table here in Georgia – put here by some politicians.

“And they want to do this instead of governing.”

Now, Republican leaders in both chambers have been talking down the hospital bed tax recommended by Gov. Sonny Perdue, and the cigarette tax backed by state Rep. Ron Stephens (R-Savannah).

But they’re about to raise many, many fees that haven’t seen an increase in decades. So after his speech, the question was posed to Norquist: When is a fee a tax?

He replied:

“A fee that is voluntary – like you want to go to a city swimming pool. Because there are other swimming pools. There are other places to go swimming. Or a fee to go to a park. You could say, ‘Well, I won’t do that. I’ll do something else.’

“That’s voluntary, and it’s not a monopoly.

“If they say, ‘If you want to be a barber, there is a tax on your ability to be a barber – and, by the way, if you don’t pay the fee, you can’t be a barber.’ That’s not voluntary.

“If the money coming is going into general revenue, chances are what you’re talking about as a fee is a tax. If it’s going to pay the cost. Okay, that’s a fee.

“If it’s raising net revenue for the government, then it’s a tax. If it’s paying for a service that’s really kind of voluntary, that is voluntary, then it’s a fee. Sometimes people have raised fees that doesn’t raise anyone’s hackles, and doesn’t get us to say that might be a pledge violation.”

The size of the fee hike, Norquist said, is sometimes what matters.

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18 comments Add your comment

Base

March 9th, 2010
2:57 pm

A government fee is a tax!

Double speak

March 9th, 2010
2:57 pm

THESE ARE CRAZY PEOPLE!
They are currently paid for by big tobacco…Taxes increases are needed. No choice. And yes I say start with tobacco.

Republicrat_Slave

March 9th, 2010
3:01 pm

When a government expands beyond the realm of Article 1, Section 8 (”Enumerated Powers” clause), they are more then likely participating in fascism (using public momies to benefit private persons, typically via the entity known as “The Corporation”, that would otherwise not exist or financially benefit).

Take the subject of “education”. Contractual idiots like to say that the Constitution is “silent” on that. Yet these same fascist advocates, fail to see the flaw in their support. IE: If I hire a roofer to work on a structure I own, or have been placed in stewardship of to maintain, I will insist on a contract, with all terms understood and agreed before work begins. Should this roofer, after commencing work, decide to paint my home or repair a broken window – no matter the reasons (other than his company causing damage to the paint or window, but still), that comapny is working beyond the terms of the contract and should NOT have commenced upon such work without a full agreement/amendment to the contract (called a “Change Order”) and WILL NOT BE PAID!

Behind EVERY seemingly well-intended expansion of government is a business group supporting it, because they love it when their special interest gets mandated by law, code, statute, regulation, etc.; this is fascism. Even so-called “state parks, national parks”, etc. that have overwhelming public support; we’ll see how well this idea is supported when States begin to sell the land to pay for the public debt; when China begins mining and/or drilling for oil in National Parks (in lieu of being paid back those trillions DC wasted on “Constitutionally silent” spending).

Yep. “Silence” is about to be decided in loud ugly terms. “Conservative/fascist” and their evil twin, “Liberal/Socio-communist” are about to be reconciled to the Constitution. The reckoning…the audit by “we the people” is as certain as death and…well, taxes.

JG

March 9th, 2010
3:02 pm

9:27 am March 8, 2010, by Jim Galloway

The invitation to the Tuesday noon anti-tax rally was fairly standard.

It noted that Grover Norquist, of government-small-enough-to-drown-in-a-bathtub fame, is the featured speaker.

Said the e-mailed invitation:

“Now is the time to overhaul the state’s budget process and find long-term solutions. Now is the time to cut spending and encourage economic growth. Now is the time to stop digging!”

Then there was the fine print at the tail end:

PAID FOR BY TOBACCOW

A dollar-a-pack cigarette tax is one of the alternatives being considered by the Legislature.

The formal sponsors of Tuesday’s rally are Americans For Prosperity, Norquist’s Americans for Tax Reform, and the Conservative Leadership Coalition.

Virginia Galloway, head of the Georgia chapter of AFP, said she had no knowledge of the e-mailed invitation above — until she saw the post this morning. However, ATR and Norquist have in the past received financing from tobacco companies.

Republicrat_Slave

March 9th, 2010
3:04 pm

Education: percent of State budget – 1999=”35%”; 2009=”55+%”. What – will “75% of the State budget” make it better?

WAKE UP!!!

The Snark

March 9th, 2010
3:08 pm

Who the hell cares what a mediocrity like Grover Norquist says? He’s a special interest pimp masquerading as an idealist.

But those other people at the rally were scary … the ones who really seem to think that this country can govern itself with a government funded by hot air and soda crackers …

You Asked

March 9th, 2010
3:28 pm

Hey Grover- LIving in the US is voluntary so in that case all taxes are fees right?

Spin…spin…spin…spin

Brought to you by the Tarlung T’baccy Corporashun

Cutty

March 9th, 2010
4:25 pm

Aren’t most parks and swimming pools paid through taxes already? Jus sayin.

Chuckl

March 9th, 2010
4:33 pm

Our beloved Republic is in grave danger and every sovereign citizen in this country has the obligation and the duty to safeguard our freedoms paid for with the precious blood of Americans before us. http://www.devvy.com/notax.html

ATL

March 9th, 2010
4:45 pm

Brought to you by Big Tobacco on behalf of Big Tobacco–
bringing the naive and mis-guided along for the ride…

OnceUponATime

March 9th, 2010
8:13 pm

“Or a fee to go to a park. You could say, ‘Well, I won’t do that. I’ll do something else.’”

So a tobacco tax or a liquor tax is not a tax, because you can choose not to smoke or drink. It’s a user fee, and it meets Norquist’s definition….or would if he weren’t apparently in the pockets of big tobacco for this trip.

Red

March 9th, 2010
8:37 pm

Property taxes are voluntary. Just don’t buy property. Same with sales tax. Buy off the internet. This has to be the most insane definition for taxes. Grover just doesn’t want to lose his influence with certain politicians running in his social circles. Grover, Ralph Reed, Abramoff, and all others in this group are pimps making money off of invented organizations. Politicians are all quick to run and sign his pledge. Who cares? Like Grover is anyone.

If fees are created when there are none it is a hike. If fees are raised it is a hike. Spin it how you want but anyone saying anything differently is a liar.

Sesame Street's Grover made more sense

March 9th, 2010
11:45 pm

Our legislators are on the verge of drowning out our University system and cutting off the future of our children and grandchildren. These are decisions that will have huge, horrid ramifications for years to come and this Grover Norquist comes to our state with this irresponsible message?

He says “Don’t tax you, don’t me, tax the man behind the tree.” As fed up as I am with liberals and their spending, this guy is the right wing version of that same irresponsibility. He is the Cynthia McKinney of the right… only much more dangerous b/c he has a larger following (of idiots).

Karl Marx

March 10th, 2010
7:19 am

According to Webster’s a tax is “a charge usually of money imposed by authority on persons or property for public purposes”. John Oxendine said “If you raise a fee, you’re ultimately raising a tax on the people who pay it.” He is correct.

One of the almost 1,800 different state fees is a $10 licensing fee charged airports to “foster safer operating conditions.” Senator Hooks D-Americus said, “It’s a joke. The administration and postage for that is more than we’re taking in.” I agree it is a joke and there are many more just like it we should just cut and eliminate.

This is a great opportunity to for the State Legislature to show us they are serious about smaller government.
We voters should promise to vote against anyone who does not work to shrink the size of government and hold out elected officials accountable for their overspending ways of the past.

dmac

March 10th, 2010
7:49 am

Norquist is right, we should increase the fees on goods and services that are nonessential.

Hey, let’s start with a $100 tax increase on the sale of hand guns.

dmac

March 10th, 2010
7:54 am

I love how the professional lobbyists like Norquist show-up and bring out-of-state protesters to rail against higher taxes.

Hey Norquist, I make a good living. Labor statistics show that people in my income bracket have been hurt the least by the recession. I will gladly pay more in taxes to shore-up our state budget.

Hayek

March 10th, 2010
8:09 am

Dmac–just pull out your check book and mail it in. Meanwhile, keep your hands out of my wallet.

n

March 10th, 2010
9:43 am

Let’s shrink state government until it’s the size of Somalia’s government!
Automatic weapons will be the currency of the realm.