Should remedial classes be dumped from colleges? Are the placement tests wrong?
As the cost of college soars and students are left without degrees but lots of debt, the effectiveness of remedial classes is being closely examined.
The Associated Press reports that each year, an estimated 1.7 million U.S. college students are steered to remedial classes to catch them up and prepare them for regular coursework. The students are paying regular prices for these classes but aren’t getting credit and often don’t graduate at all.
Also in some cases, the students shouldn’t even be in the classes. Some say the placement tests are flawed and colleges would do better placing by high school records.
From the Associated Press: (I bolded the good stuff.)
“Simply putting (students) in three levels of remedial math is really taking their money and time with no hope of success,” said Stan Jones, president of Complete College America.”
“The group’s research shows just 1 in 10 remedial students graduate from community colleges within three years and a little more than a third complete bachelor’s degrees in six years. Yet the classes are widespread, with more than 50 percent of students entering two-year colleges and nearly 20 percent of those entering four-year universities put in at least one remedial course, the report said.”
“At the end of the day if we could say that we are getting more students to graduate, particularly those coming into college without the requisite skills, the investment we have now is worth it,” said Bruce Vandal, director of postsecondary education for the Denver-based Education Commission of the States, a nonpartisan group that researches education policy. “I think the fact that we aren’t getting that result is why legislators and policymakers are up in arms and rightfully so.”
“The research comes as the cost of a college education continues to grow. The College Board said last fall that the average in-state tuition and fees at four-year public colleges rose an additional $631, or about 8 percent, compared with a year ago. The annual cost of a full credit load has passed $8,000 — an all-time high.”
“Legislation passed earlier this month in Kansas prohibits four-year universities from using state funds to provide remedial courses.”
“Beth Gulley, an associate English professor who teaches remedial writing at the 22,000-student Johnson County Community College in northeast Kansas, acknowledges the remediation statistics are “pretty dismal.” But she noted it sometimes takes students longer to graduate than the span of time the statistics track.”
“I think there is lots of hope,” she said.”
“Take her assistant Brandon True, who dropped a remedial math class twice before completing it and College Algebra. Now 23, he is taking a calculus-heavy class for aspiring video game designers and preparing to transfer to a four-year institution.”
” ‘I was terrified,” he recalled of his earlier math struggles. Because of those initial struggles problems, he feels like he truly understands the remedial writing students he helps. ‘I think they choke. It’s scary.’ ”
“Research shows placement exams routinely misplace students in remedial courses, and colleges would do so far less often if they also examined high school transcripts, said Davis Jenkins, a senior researcher at the Community College Research Center at Teachers College at Columbia University in New York.”
“True knows the limitations of placement exams firsthand. He went from being identified as needing remedial writing help the first time he took the test to qualifying for the gifted writing program the second time.”
“The classes are being rethought as well. Jenkins recommends doing away with the one-size-fits-all college algebra requirement and having math classes tailored to a few broad areas of study. For instance, those studying history, law or psychology might take a math class focused more on statistics.”
” ‘It just kills their desire for learning,” Jenkins said, noting that some students are being placed in classes that make them basically redo middle school pre-algebra. “There really is a stigma, so it is clear that we need to rethink it. ‘”
“The Complete College America report also says research shows half or more of remedial students would be better off being placed in required classes and having the schools building in extra help, such as tutors or more frequent class meetings.”
“The report said institutions that have used those approaches have seen their unprepared students succeed at the same rates as their college-ready peers. Legislation passed earlier this month in Connecticut allows underprepared students to take full-credit, college-level courses with built-in supports, such as extended instruction, extra tutoring and mandatory labs.”
What do you think? Have you or your kids taken remedial classes in college? Did they benefit you?
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68 comments Add your comment
John B.
May 30th, 2012
3:52 am
I think if a recent High Scholl graduate is found to need remedial classes, the Districts they graduated from should bear the cost of the classes. I think the bigger question is how there students got out of Hign School!
Don’t blame the standardized tests for the failure of the public schools!
Road Scholar
May 30th, 2012
6:14 am
If you cancel remedial classes, how will these ill prepared students move forward with their careers? When will they learn the basics that should have been taught in grade and high school? McDonalds only has so many jobs! Oh and you need some basic skills even there.
Fed Up
May 30th, 2012
7:01 am
These kids had 12 years of free education to prepare for college. Algebra I is supposed to be taught in 8th/9th grade; writing a basic essay starts in 4th grade. The real tragedy is the lack of vocational training, coupled with feel-good social promotion. This try-your-best attitude should end *well* before a person gets to college.
VoTech
May 30th, 2012
7:16 am
we need more ” hands on ” training… math and science.. engineers.. medical.. nurses , manufacturing.. requires computers these days.. plumbers, electricians, welders, etc . don’t borrow money to get a degree in Soc. Studies !!!
Voice of Reason
May 30th, 2012
7:17 am
Oddly enough, In college I was forced to take remedial math classes my first three quarters, yes we were on the quarter system in 1996, based solely on how I scored on the SAT. These remedial math classes did not count towards college credit and they also ended up being my highest grades in any of the classes I took over the course of those three quarters. All, “A”s, if you want to know. Then I promptly got more “A”s in the college math courses that actually counted. Well, except for Business Calculus….I hated that class, I got a “C.”
My problem wasn’t the fact that the remedial math classes existed (I’m sure there are some out there who do actually need them) my problem was that the determining factors that put me in those remedial classes were DEAD wrong to begin with.
English 99
May 30th, 2012
7:31 am
Find something on the internet…. cut/paste… write less than 90 words…. this is the quality of today’s blog
motherjanegoose
May 30th, 2012
7:53 am
No remedial classes here.
jarvis
May 30th, 2012
8:05 am
I’d need to see the data Davis Jenkins is quoting. If only a third of remedial students are graduating from college in 6 years or less, I’d say the tests are doing a pretty good job of predicting students that won’t succeed in college.
I think the rising costs data is also a little misleading. At least in Georgia it tends to be the less expensive schools that offer or have any significant remedial courses.
This AJC article is a couple of years old, but I think it does a good job of showing which schools have the bulk of remdial students, and they would not be “average” cost schools…rather they would be less. (By the way, how did UGA have 10 remedial students out of 35,000 kids? Were they fasing it out or something?)
http://www.ajc.com/news/remedial-classes-cost-ga-709142.html
homeschooler
May 30th, 2012
8:10 am
@ Voice.. I was in college from ‘89-’93. As I remember if you had a certain score or less on the SAT you had to take a placement test. That determined any need for remedial classes. Did you have to take the placement test?
I remember my math SAT score was barely above the cut off for remedial classes. I went right into college level math with no problem. Many of my friends had to take remedial math. They were not any more or less academic than I was. Just the difference of a few points. It was really dissapointing for them to spend all that time and money for classes that didn’t count. Funny, looking back, I graduated in 4 yrs (no summers) and most of them took 5+ years or never graduated.
I do agree that many kids are not prepared for college but why not let them try to take the college level and see if they pass. Seems to me the remedial classes only help the college by bringing in more $$$.
Voice of Reason
May 30th, 2012
8:14 am
I’d also like to add that, despite the remedial math classes I should not have been forced to take, I still graduated in 4 years.
shaggy
May 30th, 2012
8:15 am
If the kids need remedial classes, make the parents take them too..in the same classroom, and like John B said, make the puke school pay for it, while publishing the puke school’s “success” and cost to the taxpayer. Just maybe, negative consequences, and a dose of shame, will finally win the day.
Otherwise, just give them a hug and move along, as they are “victims” destined to suck the gubment teat for life, and the lives of their many children by different sperm/eggs that they will produce. You, the taxpayer, get to pay for it, because you, the taxpayer, let them do it and get off scott free.
Shut up and open your checkbook, ye olde hardworking ones. Here they come, and they want their entitlement for sucking air.
Voice of Reason
May 30th, 2012
8:18 am
Yes I do remember having to take a placement test. They should have taken my high school academics into account because that was a much more telling story of how good of a student I was than some snapshot in time placement test or SAT or ACT.
jct
May 30th, 2012
8:18 am
Remediation should be an option at colleges. However, if you need remediation in every subject than maybe that school is not for you. I took remedial math as an undergraduate but I still managed to graduate in 4 years. I decided to take the remediation in the summer prior to my first semester once I learned that I failed the math placement test.
Sometimes it is about motivation. I buckled down that summer and sucked it up. That way I was back on track in my first full semester. I figured this out all by myself with the help of a helicopter parent. Sometimes you have to work hard in getting what you want.
Vork
May 30th, 2012
8:27 am
It’s interesting how most tests are designed to be a snapshot in time evaluation of how a person acts under pressure.
What would be a better test, I think, would be a test to see how well a person is able to avoid the pressure situations in the first place but still gets the job done. THAT is a REAL test.
Progress
May 30th, 2012
8:28 am
Colleges should continue to offer remedial courses, but the students should have to pay for them themselves out of pocket- no state or federal grants, no loans, nothing. The taxpayer should not be responsible for reteaching high school material, which is what happens when the student drops out and ends up defaulting on a loan.
As for additional supports in regular classes such as tutoring or study groups, I’m okay with that, as long as all the funds come from fees collected from students who are in the remedial program. The students who were accepted into the college unconditionally with good grades should not have to pay extra fees that go to supplemental supports for remedial students.
K-12 education is there for a reason, and every student has the opportunity to learn enough information and develop enough skills there to be where they should at the beginning of college. After that it’s on them.
One Man's Opinion
May 30th, 2012
8:45 am
College should be off limits for anyone who scores lower than 1200 on the SAT. Allowing everyone access to postsecondary education via third-tier state schools and online diploma mills dilutes the value of legitimate degrees, thus forcing people to pursue otherwise unnecessary master’s degrees and incur more debt.
Shmi Skywalker
May 30th, 2012
8:53 am
@One Man’s Opinion
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
motherjanegoose
May 30th, 2012
9:08 am
@ one…out of 2400? The test recently changed:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_perfect_SAT_score
DB
May 30th, 2012
9:10 am
Remedial classes in college? Uh – no. Personally, I think that if you need remedial classes, you don’t get in. Period.Harsh, but hey, DO THE WORK IN HIGH SCHOOL AND IT WON’T BE A PROBLEM. And yes, high schools should be penalized if their graduates can’t pass a simple basic math or English class. With all the applicants colleges have to sort through, why should they bother accepting someone who has not demonstrated the ability to handle the work?
I don’t understand the “remedial” classes. There’s class grades, and required classes in order to gain admission. There’s SAT/ACT scores. Then there’s the Georgia High School Graduation Test. At that point, there have been THREE chances for a student to demonstrate their ability in a certain topic. If, after three opportunities to demonstrate mastery (not to mention retakes, etc.) a student can’t pass the test, well, then, oh, well. A “remedial” class in college is just another form of social promotion, but the costs are higher. Don’t talk to me about “test anxiety” or any of that other crap – they are going to have to be taking exams throughout college, if they can’t get past an easy one, then they aren’t college material. Why waste their time and why allow them to suck up even MORE resources? There’s nothing wrong with not being college material — the world needs all sorts of workers who don’t have to go to college in order to make their way in the world — there’s vocational training for healthcare, IT, arts, applied sciences such as HVAC, plumbing, etc. But trying to stick a round peg in a square hole only damages the peg AND the hole.
DB
May 30th, 2012
9:14 am
@MJG: I wonder about that 2400 — most people still seem to think in terms of a 1600, and then, “oh, yeah, that writing test, too”. Five years ago, the writing test was just sort of an add-on as colleges were waiting to evaluate how well the writing test predicted performance in college. I wonder if 2400 is now becoming the norm?
Voice of Reason
May 30th, 2012
9:20 am
@DB
I take offense to that. Your logic is HIGHLY flawed.
I went to elementary, middle, and high school in East Cobb. I took the college prep course through high school. You cannot argue with me as to the pedigree that comes out of an East Cobb school system.
I graduated high school with a “B” average, good enough to get me the HOPE scholarship. By the skin of my teeth I was able to keep the HOPE scholarship throughout all 4 years of my college education and my final semester before I graduate, yes we had converted to semesters at that point, I made the Dean’s List.
You are telling me that because one snapshot-in-time placement test put me in remedial math for three classes at the beginning of my college career I should never have gone to college to begin with?
I think you put too much faith in standardized tests that I believe are not an effective means of measuring a person’s true potential.
motherjanegoose
May 30th, 2012
9:22 am
@ DB…not sure…maybe someone else knows. I do know that some kids who make straight A’s in college do not do well on the SAT or ACT. Due to either test anxiety or simply not knowing the material itself. Fact…not all schools are equal in the expectations for their classes…except the AP classes, which were discussed a while back. A test prep person told us that one test tends to be better for girls and one test is better for boys, due to the testing style itself and that you should always take both to see what happens. My two took both.
taxpaying teacher
May 30th, 2012
9:23 am
I can’t believe Theresa’s first sentence got past the copy editors: “the effectiveness of remedial classes ARE being closely examined” (my emphasis). Yikes!
motherjanegoose
May 30th, 2012
9:24 am
ooops…sorry I meant straight A’s in high school.
jct
May 30th, 2012
9:25 am
What if you high school is not up to par? Or you get improper guidance in high school?
There are plenty of motivated students (like I was) who just did not get the exposure. Should I and others (especially first generation students) who just did not have someone to guide them through the process be penalized. My high school was awful. I was so under prepared but had really decent grades and okay SAT scores.
I was not looking for a handout. I didn’t play a blame game. I just decided to work harder. We should not be penalizing students who can and do succeed through hard work. Doing the work in high school only works if your school is really preparing you.
claytondawg
May 30th, 2012
9:53 am
Remediation on ALL levels will never go away; there are too many so-called pundits who think that evryone should go to college. So, this education of the masses has not and will not succeed with society’s attitude that everyone is equal. Education should not be a right nor a sense of entiltlement. It should be a privilege and an individual’s responsibility begining with the parents at home and continuing through the child’s formative years.
misawa
May 30th, 2012
10:30 am
Didn’t have to do remedial classes myself straight out of high school, but did get bumped back to College Algebra when I went back to school about 10 years later.
My brother however scored very poorly on the SAT (very low math, decent on writing) and had to take remedial classes his entire first year of college. The following year his college (GC&SU) changed their minimum qualifications – had he been a year behind, he wouldn’t have been admitted. He was one of the few that graduated, though.
I wonder why bigger schools don’t partner with community colleges or tech schools? I knew a handful of people at SPSU that started at a community college to get their grades up before transferring elsewhere. Not sure what the cost is at a local community school – I guess I’m assuming that it would be much less than a 4 year college?
non committal mind reader
May 30th, 2012
10:52 am
Its a loaded compound question. Do we want more folks to graduate college? If “Yes”, then remediation is certainly necessary in some cases.
I made straight A’s in HS, went to take college courses my senior year, and did poorly on the math placement tests. I was in my college (math) remediation class for about three days before my instructor pulled me out and put me in regular college calculus… where I scored an “A”. People DO screw up on placement tests, and get erroneously put into remediation. I have no idea how often this happens.
Should remedial classes be dumped? No
Are placement tests wrong? Sometimes. In my case, they were.
If a student is willing to pay for non-credit remediation, they should be allowed .
sp
May 30th, 2012
10:59 am
You will always have remedial classes – especially for those non-traditional students. It took me almost 10 years to save money to support myself and able to go to college. I had to have one remedial class just simply because I forgot most of the material. I doubled up on classes and went to summer school and was able to get a BS in 3 1/2 years.
But, I guess if DB had their way, I wouldn’t even be allowed in…
Fed Up
May 30th, 2012
11:04 am
I helped out a friend with her remedial math & English classes. My 4th grader could have run circles around her. Simply put, she was not even ready for technical “college.” I think the only reason she was there was that she got some kind of free ride for being poor.
zeke
May 30th, 2012
11:08 am
Remedial work should not be done on the college/university level! This should be done in a system that only does the things necessary for these students to advance to 2 year or 4 year colleges and universities!
DB
May 30th, 2012
11:18 am
@voice: I’m sorry if you’re offended — but that’s my opinion. There are exceptional students who do manage to make the most of their college opportunities, but I suspect that you would probably agree with me that they ARE “exceptional”. Good for you for making it work for you — but I have a feeling that’s not the case for the majority of the remedial students. I very much agree with the “sink or swim” philosophy — throw ‘em in the basic college courses, give ‘em the same support available to all students, and if they make it, good. If they don’t, time for Plan B, C or whatever. (Don’t get me started on the extensive tutoring available only to athletes . . . that’s a whole other kettle of fish.)
Looking at the broader problem: Creating an entire network of remedial classes at the college level simply creates yet ANOTHER level of education — similar to “pre-first” for kids who aren’t quite ready for 1st grade, remedial classes in college are “pre-college”. Why keep creating layers upon layers of college prep? Why not just fix the problem at the high school level in the first place and hold them accountable if they proclaim their students are ready for college and they are NOT?
I remember Parents Day during my son’s freshman year. There was one parent who was whining about her daughter’s difficulty in adjusting to college, exclaiming that she had had to come up to see her daughter EVERY WEEKEND since college started (this was six weeks into the semester). (Well, I saw the major problem right there, but hey . . .:-) The same parent was complaining that her daughter, who wanted to be a doctor (like 60% of the freshman class) was not doing well in general chemistry, and thought it was “mean” that the school made the class so ‘hard’. “They should be more supportive!” I had to point out to her that the general chemistry class at this university was designed as a “barrier class” to quickly weed out the kids who didn’t have the aptitude for the sciences needed for med school — better to find out early, when there was still plenty of time to decide on another major. She didn’t like hearing that, but oh, well.
@misawa: The universities don’t exactly “partner” with the community colleges, but classes taken in the University of Georgia system transfer pretty freely from one school in the system to another. Many kids ought to start out in community college — they get to a big university like UGA and get overwhelmed by social aspects and aren’t ready to live and work on their own, or they don’t have a clue what they want to major in, etc. Community college is good for letting kids get the basic classes out of the way with fewer distractions, etc. at a much more reasonable cost. (GPC in 2013 will be $1266 per semester, plus $84.40 per credit hour. UGA will be $3823 per semester, for a class load over 6 hours per semester.)
catlady
May 30th, 2012
11:32 am
First, I would like to see the “study” Mr. Jenkins quotes. Claims like this ignore the fact that many of these students would not be finishing anyway. It takes a great deal of determination to catch up!
I have had some experience working in 2 two year colleges. I believe they are the place for remedial work. I have personally never seen someone incorrectly placed in remedial classes. Many folks truly believe their writing or math or reading is up to par for college level work, but throw them in a college level class and they will then complain about the teacher.
I never took any of the college remediation, nor did my children. I did, one day, as part of my own curiousity, take the math test and was finished with it in less than 15 minutes. It was very simple, 4th grade level stuff.
I foresee more remedial level courses needed, as we continue to send kids/adults on who have not mastered basic skills. But these courses should be only available at 2 year colleges!
Valstake
May 30th, 2012
11:35 am
I don’t remember talking any remedial classes, but I’m not sure if they were being offered when I entered the Univ. of South Florida in 1969. I was terrible in math and managed to evade it my entire college career, easy to do since my major was ancient & medieval history. My masters degree curriculum at Emory Univ. also didn’t require math. I was quite lucky.
Progress
May 30th, 2012
11:37 am
Those who are advocating penalizing the public schools if students can’t pass college entrance exams are missing a major point- High school graduation requirements were never meant to be equivalent to college entrance requirements. The Georgia High School Graduation Test essentially assesses literacy and basic skills to ensure that a student has gained the minimum level of academic competency to graduate from high school. The assessments were not designed to test for college readiness and they don’t say anything about college readiness. Would you suggest that if a student does not have the skills and knowledge to go to college they should also not be allowed to graduate from high school? That’s preposterous.
As I noted at 8:28, colleges and/or private learning centers should continue to offer remedial classes that do not count towards college credit in order for those students who have the motivation to raise their knowledge and skill levels. But it should be paid for out of pocket by the students- no grants and no loans. Cash up front. The public education system already offered free access to the prerequisite education the students would need. If they didn’t learn the material then, then they need to pony up the money themselves. If they really are hard workers and do what they need to do, then it will be a sound investment in their own future in the long run.
Enlightened
May 30th, 2012
11:43 am
Colleges shouldn’t have to re-educated kids when they get there. Employers shouldn’t have to re-educated new employees (but they do). Government schools are a complete failure and yet we throw more and more money at them as well as all the other band-aids needed to correct for their failures (like remedial classes at the college level). When are we finally going to realize that the only way we are ever going to end up with parents who take their children’s educational needs seriously, kids who take interest in learning, and a system that actually is designed to meet the needs of both of those groups is if we end all government involvement in education, return responsibility for education to parents, and enable a truly free market system of education to rise up in this country?
The current system of “public” education was designed around the goal of creating worker bees for big business (read John Taylor Gatto’s outstanding books on the subject) and even that has been a failure for those who set it up. Central planning doesn’t work – never has, never will. We need children and a society that can think for itself, not dumbed down worker bees for industry.
A complete and radical change is required and that begins with getting government out of the way.
Tom
May 30th, 2012
11:57 am
Three words……
Leonard Pope’s resumé
Progress
May 30th, 2012
12:06 pm
Enlightened [sic]- It’s not correct that we “throw more and more money” at public schools without results. The cost per student in regular education classrooms is the same as it was 40 years ago when adjusted for inflation. The increase in costs has been almost entirely directed at special education students, and it does cost more to provide special education students with services, although it can be debated whether all the students who are in special ed actually belong there. The system is trying to address that problem through RTI, but that’s another issue.
The “free market” system that you advocate sounds very Taliban-ish. We’d end up with an even more poorly educated populace (who write things like “have to re-educated”… twice). There would be a small percentage of wealthy, educated citizens, and massive numbers of citizens who were either illiterate or had wildly inaccurate views of reality based on whatever delusional religious indoctrination they were exposed to (again, very Taliban-ish).
jarvis
May 30th, 2012
12:41 pm
Yes DB, why not fix the problem at the high school level? Enlighten me how to do that at all 16,000 of them.
By the way, I have always been an exceptional test taker and was a poor student until college. I’m sure it burns some up that I was able to goof off for my 12 years of public education and still get by well enough to exceed in real life.
The first 18 years of a person’s life can’t be used as a barometer for how they’ll do over the long haul. It’s the first mile of a marathon.
I have a legitimate MBA and a 6-figure salary….I also graduated from high school with a 2.1 GPA (rounded up I might add).
Sink or swim? Some of us are just kicking your azz under the water, and you’re too caught up in your own little pool to notice.
Working Mom
May 30th, 2012
12:52 pm
I had to take a remedial math class in college because I don’t do well on standardized tests. Needless to say, I did very well in that class. No it didn’t count towards my degree, but I got through it and still graduated.
jc
May 30th, 2012
1:10 pm
+1 Jarvis
Omg
May 30th, 2012
1:13 pm
Colleges are about money and not education. You get a diploma and that gets you a job that requires OJT. For instance you have to have a law degree to become a reporter these days. Just ask the ladies on Fox News or is it that women should just teach. I dont know. But as long as people are convinced that degrees not skills get you the job colleges will continue to rape the American family.
Spacey
May 30th, 2012
1:24 pm
This is why we need to go back to “tracking”.
I really don’t understand why that is such a bad word.
Not everyone is college material or college ready or whatever cute expression. Steer them toward technical colleges and programs offered at schools like GPC. Help them get real jobs that help instead of debt that hurts.
BehindEnemyLines
May 30th, 2012
1:34 pm
LOL at looking at HS grades more closely, talk about inflation. Most aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on, at least not in this state.
Somehow we have to get away from the foolish notion that “everyone should go to college”. Many (and perhaps most) are simply wasting space and creating debt that will never be repaid.
DB
May 30th, 2012
2:02 pm
Dang, it’s hard to debate a topic on this blog without people taking it PERSONALLY.
Jarvis, I don’t give a crap what your income is or your GPA was, and I’m not going to get into some sort of weird little pissing contest over who is “better” – I’m confident enough in my own abilities, my own work record and my own personal life to not have to seek validation from ANYONE on this blog, including you. So stop wagging your wiener at me.
The question on the table is: Should colleges have remedial classes? My OPINION is no. If you don’t agree with me, fine. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. My OPINION is that many public schools suck up a lot of resources and put out an inferior product, education-wise. I do not think that kids coming out of public high school these days are nearly as well educated as kids coming out of high school 30-40-50 years ago, about the same time that The Powers That Be in education started to think that “everyone” needed to go to college. Heck, I doubt that half of them could even tell you who the Vice President is. That “opinion” is what caused our family to seek education in the private sector, and to make the financial sacrifices necessary.
How to fix it at the high school level? I don’t know. I don’t pretend to. I’m not an education expert, but my OPINION would be to not push everyone towards college. Go back to tracking and offering support for legitimate career paths other than college. Another poster said something that I’ve always believed: Education should be a privilege, not a right. Because it’s there for everyone, it’s not valued by the students who are there.
bryce
May 30th, 2012
2:09 pm
Colleges should only use the SAT scores for admittance. Too many students these days are given better grades than they actually make in high school due to pressure from the administration to make AYP or alleviate parent complaints about their child not getting the Hope Scholarship.
Teachers are under constant pressure form these parents and administrators to give their child a better grade or socially promote them.
The Colleges should be the ones to show the “Buck Stops Here”. If the students can’t perform, fail them out. The students today don’t want to earn anything, they just want things given to them, including degrees without the work.
Too many colleges are now giving students B grades so they can keep their Hope Scholarships.
Just what we need in society today, a bunch of individuals to go into business or other fields without any real qualifications.
Enlightened
May 30th, 2012
2:17 pm
Progress – yes, of course the Free Market (the greatest invention of human kind) was created by the Taliban. You must have gone to George W. Bush High School where you learned the fine art of debating issues through the use of fear-mongering and hyperbole.
Virtually everything that has advanced human kind has come through the free market. Hundreds of thousands of outstanding books have already made my case for me as does virtually everything you purchase (and the free market allows you to get a refund or choose to purchase elsewhere if you are dissatisfied).
Since you clearly know nothing of the Taliban or the Free Market, why don’t you instead point out all the great things the government run schools have given us.
This blog never seems to be filled with glowing praises, but rather with the most recent outrage. At least with a truly free market (not a restrictive theocracy like the Taliban – look up whatever words you don’t know the meaning of) you would have FREEDOM – you know, that horrible thing this country was supposedly founded on. Gotta wonder how that could be a bad thing. God knows the massively restrictive, theft-based, controlling monopoly of government education hasn’t done a great job. But hey, we can’t let decade after decade of failure cloud our judgement.
Enlightened
May 30th, 2012
2:18 pm
DB – When something is “free”, you get exactly what you paid for.
Omg
May 30th, 2012
2:21 pm
“Just what we need in society today, a bunch of individuals to go into business or other fields without any real qualifications.”
I remember reading American history and found many who made it “without any real qualifications”.
Real qualifications! What is that? A standard produced by some phd who never worked in the private sector? I have seen carpenters build a beautiful house without a high school diploma. When acquiring where he learned his trade he simply stated OJT. He further remarked how he could not pass English and math. I retored, “You could not pass math?” This carpenter used geometry, algebra, basic math, and common sense that would rival an UGA graduate. What went wrong with his attempt at education?
Tony Stark
May 30th, 2012
2:42 pm
Jarvis found me a weakness.
+1
jarvis
May 30th, 2012
2:57 pm
@DB, I don’t know you (other than now knowing that you don’t care for weiners in your face which in itself is a character flaw for a completely different discussion).
Anyway back to my real point, I was not trying to portray myself as better than you. I was simply pointing out that I had a very dismal academic record until college, and I think I turned out well…..good family, good job, general happiness.
I didn’t take remedial courses in college because I don’t suffer from test anxiety, and I’d like to think that I’m somewhat intelligent. Those two attributes combined with a good test prep class led to a solid ACT score, but that in no way should be misconstrued as me being more worthy of higher education than a hard working 3.8 high school student that doesn’t test well is.
Should a lazy student or one that doesn’t test in the top 10% be able to get into Emory? In my opinion, no. But should they be able to go somewhere to prove or improve themselves so that they can someday meet their goals? I think so.
In my opinion, second chances are a good thing.
malleesmom
May 30th, 2012
3:16 pm
Standardized testing surely cannot be the only measure. Especially for non-traditional i.e. adult learner students. I am a prime example. Entered college five or six years post high school. Had not taken an algebra course since freshman year so quite a few years had gone by before taking the college placement tests. Of course I needed remedial math classes which I took in order to qualify for the college algebra course. Eventually earned a bachelor’s degree and went on to do some graduate classes as well. Based on what I’m reading in today’s posts, I should not have been allowed in at all? Give me a break.
`Higher` Education via Remedial Classes
May 30th, 2012
3:44 pm
This is a joke, right? Really, you must be pulling my leg….
Why in the thunder would a college or university offer any degree with the aid of remedial classes?
The tough freshman courses are what universities typically employee to weed out the shaft. (College athletes are, of course, an exception to the rule – as they have access to an army of tutors and soft courses, if necessary to maintain a GPA required to stay on the team).
College isn’t meant to be for everyone. If you can’t cut the academics intellectually, or don’t have the discipline to complete college class work, then you may not be college material.
That’s not to say that you still can’t be a success. For example, Bill Gates and Edward Land are both Harvard drop-outs who changed the world with their innovations.
Gus
May 30th, 2012
3:46 pm
Have those students who cannot read, write, or add at a college level attend community colleges until they are ready to participate. Four year institutions should not have to deal with them at all.
jarvis
May 30th, 2012
4:02 pm
@`Higher` Education via Remedial Classes, you realize the remedial classes are in addition to college courses not in place of them, right?
Progress
May 30th, 2012
4:06 pm
Enlightened [sic]-
I should have known you’d have brought up the old cliches of the “Free Market” and “FREEDOM” (capitalized by you for some odd reason). Yawn…
Actually, many inventions and advancements were first developed through the military (government), before they were disseminated by private enterprise, so I’d say your argument is flawed at its base. And NASA is pretty good at advancements, too.
A strong central government is what separates us from Afghanistan, which is a decentralized nation/community ruled by tribal zealots, which is exactly what the Tea Party clan (and you obviously) are hoping for in the U.S. Your brethren would love to bring a restrictive theocracy to the U.S. after diluting the government’s power. Our strong central government and its public schools, both of which you apparently hate so much, have taken us through the Civil War, both World Wars, and up until now, when conservatives are trying to disembowel them.
But if you knew anything about educational research you’d also know that it’s a fallacy that private schools deliver better education than public schools.
The only decade of failure this country has had was the one that started in 2000. And it’s probably news to you, as you seem out of touch with education, but the literacy rate is higher now in this country than it’s ever been in history. The shortcomings come in the areas of science and math, and that’s a cultural phenomenon- your type choose to distort history and reject science outright because they too often disagree with the delusions you choose to hold, and you apparently hold many.
shaggy
May 30th, 2012
5:20 pm
progress – just read your drivel. It is too sad to even comment on. Just change your handle to progressive, socialist, individual rights along with responsibility hater, or just plain old communist. You must have been sad when the USSR folded.
Biologist
May 30th, 2012
5:47 pm
@Enlightened:
“why don’t you instead point out all the great things the government run schools have given us.”
How about over 85% of the people in this country?
Including:
Richard M. Nixon[36] attended Fullerton and Whittier High Schools, California
Gerald Ford[37] attended Grand Rapids South High School, Michigan
Lyndon B. Johnson[38] attended Johnson City High School, Texas
Harry S Truman[39] attended Independence High School, Missouri
H. Ross Perot[40] attended public schools and Texarkana Junior College, Texas
Roy Jay Glauber, Nobel laureate, graduated from Bronx High School of Science, Bronx, NY in 1941
Frederick Reines, Nobel laureate, attended Union Hill High School, NJ, during the late 1930’s.
Oliver North, US Army Officer, political commentator, graduated from Ockawamick High School in 1961.
Ronald Reagan graduated from Dixon High School, Illinois
Dwight D. Eisenhower attended Abilene High School in Abilene, Kansas
Richard M. Nixon attended Fullerton and Whittier High Schools, California
Gerald Ford attended Grand Rapids South High School, Michigan
Lyndon B. Johnson attended Johnson City High School, Texas
Harry S Truman attended Independence High School, Missouri
H. Ross Perot
Richard Cheney graduated from Natrona County High School in Casper, Wyoming.
Colin Powell graduated from Morris High School, NY in 1954
Billy Graham graduated from Sharon High School, NC in May 1936
Michael Medved graduated from Palisades High School, CA
Roy Jay Glauber, Nobel laureate, graduated from Bronx High School of Science, Bronx, NY in 1941.
Frederick Reines, Nobel laureate, attended Union Hill High School, NJ, during the late 1930’s.
Oliver North, US Army Officer, political commentator, graduated from Ockawamick High School in 1961.
Brad Pitt, actor, graduated from Kickapoo High School in Springfield, Missouri, 1981; d
Tom Cruise, actor, attended several public high schools including Glen Ridge High School, New Jersey during the 1970’s.
John Sununu, former one-term Senator from New Hampshire, graduated from Salem High School
John Edwards,
Spike Lee, producer, actor, graduated from John Dewey High School, Brooklyn, NY.[53]
Laura Bush attended James Bowie Elementary School, San Jacinto Junior High School, and Midland Lee High School in Midland, Texas (Graduated 1964);
William J. Clinton[55] graduated from Hot Springs High School in Arkansas in 1964,
Steve Jobs, founder of Apple Inc., graduated from Homestead High School in Cupertino, CA in 1972; his colleague, Steve Wozniak, graduated from the same high school in 1968.
Eminem, a rapper, .
Alan Colmes, a liberal news commentator, attended public school in New York City.
Sarah Palin, vice presidential candidate
Rick Perry, Texas governor,
Shark Punch!
May 30th, 2012
5:47 pm
I’ve taught (mostly non-remedial) college mathematics for over a decade. At the freshman/sophomore levels, student motivation plays a much more significant role than previous academic preparation. When I compare students with “few” absences to those with “many” (about the only avenue I have for measuring student motivation), there is a statistically significant difference in overall performance, every single class, every single semester I’ve bothered to compute it.
The real problem is that Calculus is a sacred cow in the college math curriculum, and most remedial/service courses form a single prerequisite stream towards it. But students who terminal math courses are “College” Algebra or Trigonometry (who often happy to simply pass said courses) would be better served by more conceptual courses such as Statistics or Formal Logic. After all, should we really trust that somebody with a C+ in College Algebra can later apply that material in a real-world situation? So what’s the point?
Progress
May 30th, 2012
6:32 pm
Shaggy- So it’s communist to look back fondly at the accomplishments of the U.S. throughout history, such as keeping the Union together after the Civil War and winning World War II (against socialists)? I’m all for personal responsibility. My grandparents came here from Puerto Rico in the 50’s without a penny and without speaking a word of English. I grew up in a lower middle class neighborhood in New York and went through public school the entire way to a PhD and being a college professor at a state university. My family came up from poverty and this country allowed me the opportunity to go from that environment to where I am now- all via public schooling. I think you need to get yourself an education if you think having a strong federal government equates to communism or anything else that I wrote even remotely relates to communism. Your post reveals you to be a weak minded individual.
MrLiberty
May 30th, 2012
9:09 pm
Biologist – Aside from a couple of actors, one Nobel Laureate (from the 30’s when most folks agree that public schools were considerably better than today), and two great innovators like Mr. Jobs and Wozniack, I see a bunch of either neocons, war mongers, or war criminals. Sad that you had to see past presidents as something this country or its school system should be proud of. Sorry, I’m over that delusion.
There are always going to be folks who, despite the barriers the government system throws up to real education, manage to make it. These folks were driven. I know plenty of folks who have done well despite the system But is that all that we really want to aspire to? It is like the way far too many (and given the names on your list, I suspect you might be one), constantly say in response to serious pointed criticism of the state of freedom and liberty in this country “but we are still the freest nation on earth.” A hollow statement indeed considering how great we could be. When local communities ran schools we had a far better system. Even when the states ran things they were better. Since the Feds took over things have only gone downhill, but most importantly the quality of virtually everything the free market provides has gone up while the price has gone down, and absent government manipulation of the markets, the choices have improved.
Parent
May 30th, 2012
9:44 pm
Do away with remedial courses? Surely you jest! How will we have a college football team!!!!!! (I am a UGA alumnus, I tutored football players there – tried to teach them fractions)
Progress
May 30th, 2012
10:19 pm
Mr Liberty,
So you think the schools were better in the 30’s when far more people in this country were illiterate? That’s an odd conclusion.
I’d still like to know what freedom and liberty we’re suddenly lacking. Freedom and liberty in the U.S. seem about the same now as they were as far back as I can remember.
And you talk about the Feds taking control of education. I’m wondering what exactly you mean by that. The curriculum is set by the state and local school boards, as it’s always been. Teacher certification is handled by the state. The counties set the length of the school day, the number of classes during the day, the length of classes, and what classes are offered. Since Bush’s No Child Left Behind, states are forced to conduct assessments with the intention of showing progress, but the states get to pick what assessments they will give and even create the assessments for themselves. So I’m still trying to figure out what you mean when you say the Feds have taken control of education. I’m thinking that maybe you don’t know much about how the public education system operates.
Sam
June 1st, 2012
4:32 pm
I tested into honors classes because of my SAT score, but I was a mediocre high school student at best. It’s all about what you can do or what you are capable of doing. People in remediation probably need to reconsider going to college and maybe look into a vocation. Not everyone is destined to graduate from college.
Sam
June 1st, 2012
4:33 pm
Oh, and as long as students say “I hate reading. I never read,” then you will always have illiterates in remediation. Magazines and text messages do not equal reading skills!
Sam
June 1st, 2012
4:36 pm
@Higher LOL at “weed out the shaft” – I know a few people who might like their shafts weeded. (chaff)
Greg S.
June 2nd, 2012
8:16 am
When I went to college I had to take remedial math courses because I didn’t “get” the studying thing in high school. I graduated with a degree in computer science which required my taking, and passing, 10 more math courses. I graduated with honors. So, I would say remedial courses should be offered as at least some students go on to benefit from them.
Warrior Woman
June 4th, 2012
11:18 am
If you need remedial classes, you don’t belong in a 4-year college or university. Get up to speed with an adult learning class, tech school or community college at a much lower cost.