Planning for high school in elementary school?
We received a note from the local public high school that it would be holding an informational meeting for parents of kids in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th grade.
The meeting will cover:
Getting a jump start for high school
New state and math and science requirements
Scholarship information
Earning college credit in high school
How middle school course apply toward high school graduation
Honors courses
While this seems somewhat premature to me we actually do have questions about middle school courses applying toward the high school degree and then what you take in high school since you would be ahead.
Our fifth-grader could potentially be in 8th grade math in 6th grade and would then start high school math in 7th grade. So then what happens. Is she forced to take some crazy hard math in high school to graduate? Do you have to switch to paid college classes?
It seems like in the past it was in the eighth grade when parents went to learn about high school.
So what do you think: Does this seem premature or does it make sense if you kid is ahead in some of the curriculum? This makes my stomach hurt thinking about high school when she’s just in fifth grade – is this good planning to go or would you just ignore that note?
Does anyone have any thoughts on being two years ahead in math? Good thing, bad thing or whatever challenges them?
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40 comments Add your comment
usually lurking
February 1st, 2012
12:33 pm
I do have a thought on getting ahead in Math. In Georgia, high schoolers have to take 4 years of math to graduate. Period. Doesn’t matter if they have mastered the content required for graduation. So, if you have a child who started on the advanced math track in 6th grade, they are locked into a track that has them in AP math classes or dual enrollment their junior and senior years. Not that I’m saying that’s a bad thing, but not maybe the best approach for smart kids who don’t really love math. Also, some of the advanced science courses have math pre-reqs, so you need that information too. Does AZ make the high schoolers pick a “major”? I think Georgia is going that direction, so glad my kids are almost out of high school!
Theresa Walsh Giarrusso
February 1st, 2012
12:42 pm
Usually lurking — see I heard the same thing that you have to have four years in math in HS — the guidance counselor at the middle school says it’s just 4 years of HS math on your record — that it doesn’t have to be during the four years that you are in HS — but you kind of want to know for certain — also the requirements could change =- but I agree with you — by getting ahead you are setting up a track — Rose loves math but will she still love it as a junior?? — Another friend was saying she took stats in HS when she finished the other stuff or you could do the AP classes — Now in college I know I took chemistry as a math/science requirement so they might allow that in HS too — so I guess we need to go but it just seems like so far off.
jarvis
February 1st, 2012
12:44 pm
Well TWG, unless you are planning on them taking advance math in high school, what is the point in having them take upper grade level math in middle school?
Bragging rights? Cause it isn’t going to give them an edge if they only get up to Algebra II anyway.
usually lurking
February 1st, 2012
1:13 pm
TWG – that may be a difference between AZ and GA. In GA, it is 4 years of math actually taken in grades 9-12. When he started 9th grade, he had a choice to continue on the advanced track or repeat the math he had taken in 8th grade. He would not get high school credit for the high school level math he took in 8th grade.
Patrick
February 1st, 2012
1:21 pm
I believe the school systems are pushing our kids too hard these days. And people wonder why Georgia’s math scores (and overall test scores, especially the SATs) are so low. They don’t give the students time to process basic math principles before moving on to higher math, some of which most people won’t ever have to encounter again in the real world.
As to the 4 years of math in high school: There was an exception, at least when I was in high school back in the mid-to-late 90s: Either 4 years of Math, or two years of Applied Math. Applied Math simplified regular Math, but put an interesting twist on it: They actually answered the age-old Math question kids everywhere always ask: “When am I ever going to use *this*?!”
For example: In regular Math classes you would be given a bunch of problems to solve, meaning nothing, save for practicing the techniques, theories, or other methods just taught. You might be given a word problem or two, using names of people you’ve never met, nor will ever meet, doing things or having stuff in quantities no single normal person would have the business of having or doing.
Absolutely pointless.
With Applied Math, however, the students would watch a video dealing with a real-world example of how that day’s exercise is used. Real companies or locations would be used, including a radio station somewhere in California, a well-known chemical plant, a well-known department store, or other businesses. Sometimes the videos featured kids the same age as the students (teens) doing things most teens would easily see themselves doing, such as measuring out the area of a neighbor’s yard in square feet, to negotiate a price for mowing their lawn.
Students would then be expected to practice the same techniques or exercises as just demonstrated. Having learned these real-world examples, the techniques or theories would sink in more, making it easier for the student to grasp them and apply them.
Lori
February 1st, 2012
1:32 pm
Whether or not your kid “loves” math in HS, why wouldn’t you want them to take the most advanced courses that they are capable of??? I will ALWAYS encourage my children to excel in every subject and take the most advanced courses that they can per their abilities. Give them the best competitive edge you can for entering college.
Lori
February 1st, 2012
1:34 pm
I also don’t get the fear of math that people seem to have. “Applied math” is called science class! I took calculus in HS and I’m glad I did, because it sure made Physics a lot easier to understand.
motherjanegoose
February 1st, 2012
1:42 pm
I think applied math sounds like a great idea. My daughter is in a science lab where they were talking about percentages of solids and liquids. The teacher gave a few examples and then asked the students to toss some in. She cooks all the time and also works in a food service/retail job. She mentioned that some ideas tossed in were ridiculous and that the teacher saw her question marked face when they were shared. She probably knows more than I do about rations now, as she is involved in a food aspect several times per week. She appears to know more than other students in her class. We will see how long that lasts.
Mine both took Math 4 years in HS. Son got a 5 on the AP Calculus test and never had to take a Math class in college. BTW…if you take the AP high school classes and get a decent score on the test, then those count for college credit. Saves money in the long run. Not an option when I was in school We did not have to pay for any classes taken in HS, just the exams at the end. Daughter hung in there for calculus and passed. She was happy with that.
motherjanegoose
February 1st, 2012
1:43 pm
comment gone, it was not even very long
DB
February 1st, 2012
1:47 pm
I would definitely go — it’s better to be forwarned and forearmed than to fumble around in middle school and get to high school and end up saying, “Huh? Why weren’t we told?!” Don’t hold ‘em back — let ‘em fly as high and as fast as they are able, and let the “rules” catch up with them. One kid I knew had basically finished high school by the time he was 16. He knew what he wanted to do in college, and he definitely had the brain power for it, so when he got to 16, he looked at the classes he had left, and decided, “Nope — I’m done.” He took his GED, passed resoundingly, aced the SAT, and then applied for college — he started college when the rest of his classmate were starting their junior year.
Jeff
February 1st, 2012
1:48 pm
5th grade is a little early to be thinking about high school. Maybe 7th? While you should always be a
Watching their friends, I assume you already are.
Butt Cancer
February 1st, 2012
1:55 pm
I guess if your kids are stupid, they need a head start.
Tad Jackson
February 1st, 2012
2:04 pm
A footnote said that Heliodorus was one of the famous group that had centered around Jerome at Aquileia in 370. He had accompanied Jerome to the Near East with the intention of cultivating a hermitic life.
—“Why Do the Heathen Rage?” by Flannery O’Connor
There was a knock on the door and a seventh grader was touring around some kid the seventh grader said was maybe going to be an eighth grader around here next year and can he show him The Cozy Room of Learning.
The wide-eyed potential victim was named Dupont, we learned, and Dupont might have been about two feet tall but he seemed pretty sure of himself. We all welcomed Dupont and when he came into the room everybody wanted me to show their new friend Dupont The Teaching Stick and The Globe of Happiness and the chicken. In other words, all the things they’ve been making fun of for most of their eighth grade career. Now, go figure, they were giddy with support and inspiration for everything that’s ever occurred within The Cozy Room of Learning, which had been wonderful and fun and had changed their lives. I’m fairly sure of it.
Somebody screamed … Touching The Teaching Stick is unholy!
Somebody else screamed … Are you a knowledge seeker, Doo-pont!
Poor old Dupont, I could tell—profoundly and immediately—looked as if he had walked into a camp meeting of chimpanzees who were feeling very territorial at that moment and had been drinking a lot of beer. Every eye was on him. They were all leaning toward him. They all had grins on their faces that were—profoundly and immediately—a little blood thirsty.
I tried to break the ice. I asked Dupont if he liked … vexillology!
Dupont said he didn’t know what that was.
I told Dupont we’d learn him some vexillology! No worries! Then I asked Dupont if he liked Georgia History!
Dupont said he didn’t know yet.
Dupont peered onto the awe-inspiring contents of The Globe of Happiness, and it pretty much got real worse after that.
The chimpanzees screamed … Whattaya think of that!
Proudly, Dupont told the class that he doesn’t … eat candy.
I cannot fathom why Dupont would have said that to these rabid candy eating machines. I scooted over and opened the door for our visitors so they could get to safety.
Dupont and his tour guide scooted on out real fast.
I yelled after Dupont … Have a good summer! See you in August!
Then Debbie summed up the event pretty nicely. She said if Dupont comes back here next year she’ll be surprised as hell.
http://www.adixiediary.com
jarvis
February 1st, 2012
2:18 pm
I for one agree with Tad Jackson.
K's mom
February 1st, 2012
3:20 pm
Although with little ones, I think we need to let them be kids for as long as possible at this age I think information is key to good decision making and starting HS strategy in Middle School is not a bad idea. I have a middle school aged step daughter and I know this is not her mother’s philosphy (the big picture view) and it drives my husband nuts.
I will say this about math in HS. I was on the fast track in Math and I loved math. I started Algebra 1 in 7th grade and ended up taking Trigonometry and Calculus in High School. My teacher in HS for both subjects had also taught on the college level and expected college level work from us and did not grade on a curve. I struggled with the classes in High School where I had a “safety net” of parental support and a teacher who worked with me until I “got it.” When I got to college, I did not breeze through those two subjects, but I had such a good and strong foundation that I made strong B’s in both classes and saw many other students making D’s and F’s because they had never been exposed to the concepts.
Again, I am not a big fan helicopter parenting but from personal experience and seeing a huge epidemic of grade inflation, I am a huge supporter of letting kids face some strong academic challenges in High School so that they are far more prepared for college than a lot of students are today.
Techmom
February 1st, 2012
3:45 pm
Go and listen, everything may not apply right now but it’s still good to know. Different states have different requirements.
Example: Ga public high schools do not allow courses taken in 8th grade to count toward high school graduation BUT private schools often do (and when I lived in FL when I was in school, they did as well). My son took Algebra I, Physical Science and Spanish I in 8th grade and they are all on his HS transcript and count toward his diploma. They do NOT count toward his HOPE GPA however (HOPE only counts courses taken in HS). I’m not sure what kids who transfer out of private school do when they transfer into a public school but I’m guessing they’d have to meet the requirements of their current school. That could be quite troublesome if a kid took say Spanish I in 8th grade, Spanish II in 9th and then a year or two later transferred to public school and needed another a foreign language class (go back to Spanish I maybe??!!) My son does not have to take a science or math next year but he likely will b/c it will benefit him in prepping for college. He is actually considering taking College Algebra and Statistics b/c [as of now] the major he wants to pursue does not require higher level math. He doesn’t particularly like it and he doesn’t want to take Calc. Those two college-level courses will count toward his graduation requirement and get him college credit at the same time so it makes sense to me.
Techmom
February 1st, 2012
3:52 pm
@K’s Mom I completely agree that our kids are not prepared for college b/c HS classes seem to have taken grades too seriously and forgotten about the actual learning portion. Between HOPE and the necessity to have a 4.0 GPA just to be considered for some universities, I don’t think kids are focused on learned but rather on getting the grade. And of course we’re shocked that something like 60% of kids lose HOPE after the first year.
I know that my son would be a straight-A student in a public school. His school simply challenges more and makes the students THINK. I know many of the concepts he’s learning now are things I never encountered until college. I figured them out but it should have been nice to have been better prepared. My personal hope is that while he does not have a stellar GPA (3.2), he actually has a foundation strong enough to get through college (now HIS desire on the other hand, well only time will tell!).
K's mom
February 1st, 2012
4:41 pm
Techmom, I am glad to hear that others see the same thing in this area. I am a huge proponent of public schools, but I am very unimpressed with most of the public schools here that are touted as stellar. My step daughter, who is very bright, is in a private school and her grades are so inflated that I literally laugh when I see her report cards. No one who is learning anything makes over 100% in every subject. I think grade inflation is a huge issue in Atlanta and it happens in both public and private schools.
We are hoping to move before K starts to kindergarten out of state to an area where the High School is part of the International Baccalaureate program and the elementary and middles schools have received stellar national rankings (for what that is worth). This area is smaller and the kids and parents that we have spoken to seem more concerend about actual learing than they do having a bumper sticker exclaiming that their kid is on a meaningless honor roll. I think the Hope Grant has helped some kids get to college, but I do think it has created many problems in the Atlanta schools trying to get everyone a free education even if the kids are not earning it. And I graduated from High School in the Atlanta area….
K's mom
February 1st, 2012
5:09 pm
And I will add that I feel sorry for the teachers who want to teach our kids and are forced to babysit ill behaved kids and dumb down their “honors” classes to accomodate kids who are not honors material but their parents cannot face it. I also hate that their main objective is CRCT scores not the actual mastery of material.
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February 1st, 2012
5:49 pm
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K's mom
February 1st, 2012
5:53 pm
@Techmom…here is the link to a great article that my husband and I found very interesting on current grading trends in the US.
http://www.familycircle.com/teen/school/homework/grades/
justmy2cents
February 1st, 2012
5:58 pm
One of the schools I work at, the K classes have tshirts that say “college begins in kindergarten”!
Kat
February 1st, 2012
7:30 pm
TWG: Your “new” photo (you and the little ones) is nice, but the “old” photo is still on the Lifestyle home page when you click over to it. You may wish to ask AJC to change it; that is, if you are unable to do it on your own.
catlady
February 1st, 2012
7:47 pm
Actually, preparing for college happens in the nursery. I even reviewed an article called “Conversations in the Nursery” for my dissertation.
I’d rather have too much information, so I can best guide my child. Theresa, since you are out there in that “foreign land” I think it would be a good idea.
A person SMART enough to know......
February 1st, 2012
8:09 pm
Get ready for Bulldog, BAMA, Ga TECH or any teams Spring football. Spring Baseball for the Braves or any team too. High School team and other sports if you can get me a LOGO. Volleyball & Softball are big draws too.
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Just remember all you IB and AP parents...
February 1st, 2012
9:37 pm
…while the individual high school may count your grade one letter higher for the school’s final GPA (i.e. – a “B” in an IB or AP course will be an “A” on the report card) for your kid, once the transcript is sent to the particular school for college admission, the college admission sees a “B” on the transcript and does not give a hoot whether it was IB or A”P vs regular HS college prep, A “B” is a B and worth only a 3.0. So, that 4.0 or 4.0+ GPA you THINK you sent tho the to the university is now a 3.3-3.6 or so, and may be he key that keeps your kid out of UGA or GT or wherever he/she applies…
Stop, Look, Think
February 2nd, 2012
6:06 am
Agree with jarvis’ 12:44 post. If your child has the aptitude in 6th grade for 8th grade math, they will probably have the aptitude in HS for upper level math. And contrary to what mjg would have you believe, getting a 5 on AP Calc is not the rare event she makes it out to be. In fact, if I were going to come on the blog and brag repeatedly about my child’s academic accomplishments, her 5 on AP calc would be rather low on the list.
TWG, you may not have enjoyed math in school, but don’t hold your child back from achieving his or her potential because of it.
@ Just remember- Your post makes it sound like the GPA is the only consideration a college uses. I can assure you, the more competitive colleges want to see the level of course work. Getting a 4.0 on exclusively baseline courses is not going to fare well against a student with a heavily Honors/AP laden transcript, even if there are some B’s on it.
motherjanegoose
February 2nd, 2012
7:49 am
@ stop….here…does this make you feel better…same son got a D in AP History and we dropped him out of the class after a fight with the Department chair. He switched to another teacher and got an A in Honors History. We actually spoke with a district educational leader as this was on his transcript and colleges were raising their eyebrows when they saw his SAT score and wondering why he had ONE D and no C’s on his transcript. The man we spoke with apologized for the semester. I am not naming names. That teacher is no longer at our HS and, to my knowledge, in the district. I have known other children who have made a 5 on the calculus test. Did you or your children? I would not even be able to make it through the class itself. My point was that it saved $$$/time, since he did not have to take another Math class in college. If your child excels in English and can score well on an AP test, it will save a lot of reading and paper writing in college too. Especially if this is not relevant to their major.
DB
February 2nd, 2012
8:57 am
@Just Remember: I think you are mistaken. It is my understanding that .5 points to the grade of to each AP class, on a 4-point scale. If you got a B in a non-AP class, it doesn’t matter if it’s a B or B+, it’s only calculated as a 3. However, if it was an AP class, it would be calculated as a 3.5.
My niece did a lot of AP classes in high school, and got through college in three years after exempting so many of the basic class requirements, which her family encouraged her to do to save money. My son entered his freshman year with over 30 AP credits. (Neither of them attended college in Georgia). With that many credits, he was a functioning sophomore, and had priority over other freshman in registering earlier, etc. He was able to do easily do a double major and a minor and jump into the interesting courses instead of wading through a bunch of classes that would have served little purpose other than padding his GPA. So, in that sense, doing well in AP classes was, for him, a great thing.
cc03
February 2nd, 2012
11:21 am
As a high school counselor, I feel that 4th and 5th grade is too early to begin talking about high school courses. The information given would be helpful for middle school parents in terms of general course planning. However, curriculum changes occur every year. Just within the past four years in Georgia, we have gone from the more traditional math courses (Algebra, Geometry, Algebra II) to the current integrated math series with more changes on the horizon for next year.
cc03
February 2nd, 2012
11:27 am
@ Just Remember: Yes, when colleges are calculating a student’s GPA, a “B” in an AP course carries the same weight on the 4 point scale that a “B” in a non-AP class carries. However, most college admissions staff will tell you that they look at the rigor of the courses that a student has taken. The GPA is just one piece of the puzzle. Admissions staff want to see students that have challenged themselves by taking the highest level courses offered at their high school.
motherjanegoose
February 2nd, 2012
12:01 pm
cc03…thanks for sharing your expertise. I am certain that you can offer lots of good advice as you see what happens with various colleges each year. Grades are not the only factor. When my two were applying to college, we were told that they were looking at the bigger picture and not just grades. They even mentioned part time jobs, which both of mine have had since they were early teens. Both got into UGA early admittance and neither one had a stellar GPA. They both had good grades, AP classes, strong SAT scores and extra curricular events that included lots of volunteering and part time jobs. This worked for them.
cc03
February 2nd, 2012
1:19 pm
I always tell students and parents that grades are just one piece of the puzzle! Colleges love to see well-rounded students. Excellent grades are always important, but admissions staff want to see students that can balance academics with extra-curricular activities, volunteer service, and even part-time jobs.
motherjanegoose
February 2nd, 2012
2:16 pm
@cc03…my son is now trying to finish up Pharmacy school. He barely made it in with his grades but he did get in. They pretty much like straight A’s. He has carried a B average and it has been very tough. He has been working in a retail Pharmacy location for now almost 9 years. We had dinner with him last night and I said, ” I am thinking that you are one in a million people who are 24 years old, that work for the same employer you did when you were 16 and plan to stay with the company until you retire!” We laughed about it. We do know someone who started at 16 with Mc Donald’s and is now in management at 40. Our son has worked at 3 different locations and has done and will be doing some internships across the country in other capacities. Great OTJ training!
I was at Wal Mart when I was 16-23 and could not get our of there fast enough when I finished college!
MomOF4
February 3rd, 2012
11:12 am
I’ve done research in Washington state regarding the different math tracks available to students, and how this makes a difference in what they take their Senior year. In addition, have spoken with college admission offices to learn what it is (mathematics specifically) they consider as helpful for students to have so they can be part of what’s called the competitive applicant pool. If these things are important to a student, then yes, in 4th and 5th grade it is right for school districts to show parents how it all works — and basically this can be summarized in a flowchart illustrating the “paths” ranging from 6th grade -> 12th grade. Parents need to know this. You can decide to have your child go down path A or path B or path C, but at least you’ve been told how the system works and ultimately their math scores in 5th grade help determine where they will end up by their senior year. And yes, your math path also affects your science path. Colleges told us, they value a transcript showing rigor, and Calculus by 12th grade would achieve this for mathematics. For students that are ready, that track would look something like this:
6th: 6th grade math
7th: Pre-Algebra
8th: Algebra I
9th: Geometry
10th: Algebra II
11th: Pre-Calculus
12th: Calculus
* And yes, there are more rigorous paths, but this one is still today considered rigorous by colleges.
motherjanegoose
February 3rd, 2012
11:32 am
@Momof4…that is exactly what mine took! Thanks for sharing this for other parents!
Penguinmom
February 3rd, 2012
11:35 am
In the past Georgia public school did allow 8th grade math to count as long as it was a high school math (like Algebra 1) I don’t understand why public schools in Georgia don’t allow 8th grade math to count any more. The GA graduation requirements are that you take an Alg1, Alg2, Geometry and one math class above Algebra 2 (Statistics, PreCalculus, etc). I wonder if this is a left over ‘blessing’ from the stupid Math1-4 concept?
Our privately accredited school does allow younger kids to take high school classes for credit (similar to high school kids taking college classes from credit). I have a 7th grader in my Algebra 1 class right now (and he has the highest grade). This class will go on his high school transcript. If kids take Physical Science in the 8th grade, we put that on their high school transcript also. They may not end up needing the credit if they decide to take 2 senior level sciences but it is there for them if they need it. My son took a high school English, history and math in 8th grade. The nice thing is this will free up his junior and senior years a little so he can concentrate on studying some topics that really interest him (as electives).
Back when I was in HS (many, many years ago)...
February 3rd, 2012
11:58 am
…Pre-calculus was called Advanced Algebra and Trigonometry…or are those two different from pre-calculus? But, that is what we took prior to Calculus…
newblogger
February 4th, 2012
8:52 am
As a fifth grade teacher and the mom of a fifth grader, I cannot imagine why I would want to know now what my child can expect when they get to high school. Now, before you count me out as one of those educators who doesn’t care….my reason is that I have been in education long enough (24 years) to know that whatever they tell me now is going to change before he ever steps foot in high school. They are constantly changing the “track”. Every time they change the track they say this is the one that works, then about 2-3 years later they change it again. When he is in 7th grade I’ll worry about it. Also, my college student took the regular math track classes in high school and took some AP english and social studies classes. Math isn’t his strong point. He was not aiming for an engineering college and does not wish to have a career where advanced calculus would be helpful. I think it depends on the child. He did score a 99 on the high school writing test and doesn’t have to take the regents exam. I couldn’t care less that he never took calculas or whatever. He is happy, he is smart and he is on the road to getting a valuable college degree in a field where he is happy and will be a successful member of society. Math is important, but it’s not everything. If your child struggles in math or just doesn’t like it, why push them into harder math classes just so they can say they did? I, for one, am not impressed in the least when I hear someone say “my child is taking advance “trigocalcubra”. I want to say…”well my child scored better than anyone else in his class on the writing test. Be on the lookout for his name on the best seller list.”
r's mom
February 5th, 2012
6:57 am
I took algebra1 in 8th grade and when I went to college it didn’t count because it wasn’t in HS. I had to take remedial math because I didn’t have two years of high school algebra!! I think colleges are more enlightened now.