Brat Ban: Why are kids less welcome than they used to be?

It’s being called a “Brat Ban,” and it’s a movement to ban children from public places such as stores, restaurants and movie theaters.

Here’s some history of the movement from Babble.com:

“It started with an AdWeek story about so-called ‘brat bans’ — policies at stores, restaurants, and movie theatres that forbid or restrict children.”

“Within a day, the blogosphere was burning up with points and counterpoints. According to ‘Firecracker Mandy’ of the Childfreedom blog: ‘I hope the brat ban truly is an idea that is catching fire because it is long overdue, especially in the current climate of overly-permissive child-rearing that seems to have taken ahold of our culture with a death grip.’ ”

“Meanwhile, over at Yahoo! Shine, Piper Weiss mused about whether such restrictions are fair to parents and suggested that no-kids policies could threaten to turn parents into second-class citizens. ‘As businesses respond to their new breed of ‘first-class’ clientele, are parents in danger of becoming second-class citizens?’ ”

“Here on Babble, Strollerderby’s Monica Bielanko had this to say: ‘I am not at all cool with banning kids from anywhere. This is America for crying out loud!  When did we go from ‘It takes a village’ and ‘Children are our future’ to ‘Get the hell out of here you loud, whining brat’?”

So we can discuss whether it’s legitimate or not for business to ban families with kids, but I am more interested as to why sociologically this is happening now. Why are kids less welcome out places than they used to be?

I, of course, have several theories!

  1. Are the expectations of diners off kilter: If you’re showing up for 2 for $20 at Applebee’s can you really expect a quiet fine dining experience?
  2. The economy is tight and if you’re going to spend money to go out, it better be a fantastic experience – ie no kids around!
  3. Critics say parents today are more permissive that past generations and their kids are less behaved and therefore less welcome.

While all of these have possible merit, I am more inclined to my fourth theory:

4. There are simply less families with kids under 18 as the Baby Boomer generation ages and as women wait to have kids, and the childless simply don’t want to be around people with kids.

So I went looking through Census tables to find the numbers that would tell us IF the percentage of families without kids under 18 has increased over the years making families with kids less welcome.

I couldn’t find the number I was looking for in the 2010 Census Report. They had it parsed 100 billion different ways but not the way I wanted it. I even called the Census Bureau PR folks but they couldn’t find what I needed either. (All of the stats majors out there look at these tables and see if you can find the numbers we need.)

However I did find a government report published in 1996 on expected growth of families that supports this theory.

A government report from 1996 projected that:

In 2006, “Currently, slightly more than half of American families have no children under age 18 living at home; by 2010 3 of 5 families may have no children under 18 present. Although the number of families with children is projected to remain near 1995 levels, the number of families with no children under 18 is projected to increase by 28 percent (from 36 million to 46 million) by 2010.”

I then found a USA Today story from 2009 Census numbers that supports what was projected.

“The percentage of American households with children under 18 living at home last year hit the lowest point — 46% — in half a century, government data reported Wednesday.”

“The trend reflects the aging of the Baby Boom generation and younger women having fewer children, demographers say.”

” ‘Baby Boomers have been a big force in driving a lot of different population dynamics,’ says Rose Kreider, a family demographer at the Census Bureau, which released the data.”

“In 2008, about 35.7 million families (46%) had children under 18 at home, the Census figures show, down from 52% in 1950. The percentage peaked in 1963, when about 57% of families had children under 18 at home.”

So I think the Baby Boomers are getting older, are childfree and are crotchety in their new freedom. They only want to see kids when and if they choose and how dare you interrupt their dinner.

So what do you think of the theories? Why do YOU think children are less welcome out places such as restaurants? Do you think the Boomer generation has a right to expect and demand a childfree environment? What can parents do about this trend?

136 comments Add your comment

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
3:24 am

I love children and my life’s work depends on children. Specifically children under the age of seven. We typically request to sit away from children at restaurants ( as we did this past evening). This due to the fact that we have had several bad experiences with children sitting near us. Screaming, whining, dropping food on us, running amok through the restaurant and generally ruining our evening out. We did not expect this behavior with our own two and most certainly this was not tolerated when I was growing up. Then again, we did not take out kids out to dinner at 9:00 p.m. and anticipate them to be pleasant. They were in bed, at home, with a sitter.

I see and hear it from teachers across the country…manners are becoming extinct. Some here, poo poo the notion. That is o.k. with me as I hear it every week. Front desk agents at hotels tell me stories that are amazing. One just told me that the parents left their kids( tweens) at the hotel and they were running all over the hotel screaming and horseplaying. Other guests were complaining. She sat them in the front lobby (under her watchful eye) and told them that she would call the police if they moved. Their parents came back from the bar and got confrontational with her when they saw their kids sitting up after midnight. She again said that she could call the police as they had been drinking and driving. They moved them to their rooms in a huff.

To me, manners are the standard in that we treat others with respect and the same comfort we would enjoy. Not so much anymore and teachers everywhere see it as a disappearing art in both parents an children.

I am voting for number 3. I love to be around children who are pleasant and courteous. I often stop and engage in conversation with young children and their parents. I even coo at babies and make them smile, which often surprises their parents. I am impatient with unruly children and especially parents who do not set boundaries with their children. Call me crotchety but I can request to sit away from these children …their own parents will be their parents forever and they may never move out of their houses…live in their basements forever.

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
3:32 am

FYI…I just visited with children in Montana. The Kindergarten and First Graders were awesome. The teachers gave clear program expectations and the principal was walking around all throughout my presentation. It was wonderful to work with these children who were well behaved and delightful.
I enjoyed meeting them!

malleesmom

September 21st, 2011
5:16 am

#3 is the reason. I enjoy children. I do not enjoy misbehaved children (nor their clueless, self-absorbed, texting, cell-phone addicted parents).

Jeff

September 21st, 2011
5:22 am

My experience has been that the issue isn’t children misbehaving, because they are children and will act as such. It’s the parents that don’t give a crap that seem to be the problem. Which is also a trait in other areas of life that have brought us to the point of a less-civil atmosphere than in previous decades.

ali

September 21st, 2011
6:24 am

Let me just say that us parents with well-behaved, unruly children also don’t want to sit near bad behaved children! Don’t punish the whole group for a few – kick them out if they can’t behave!

Mike

September 21st, 2011
6:36 am

In your list of theories….I also think it’s #4 BECAUSE OF #3!

Democratic Plantation Dweller

September 21st, 2011
6:53 am

Obama be doing a wonderful job!
The stimulus is working !

BobfromAcworth

September 21st, 2011
6:53 am

Ali, I agree with you except for the day and time we live in, everyone seems to think when they are discriminated against that there is a lawsuit in that. So you really can’t pick which parents/kids get thrown out of a restaurant/theatre/etc. This is definitely what should be done, but fear of lawsuits causes business to just make a broad rule. I believe #3 is the answer for me.

catlady

September 21st, 2011
6:58 am

Agree with Jeff here, and MJG. We have a dearth of parents who try not to inconvenience others, whether it is disciplining their children or parking in handicapped places when there is no handicap. When I was growning up, if your child misbehaved in a restaurant or anywhere else, you REMOVED THE CHILD and saw to it that their behavior conformed before coming back in. This is how I raised my kids. Yes, it was inconvenient. But, long term, I was not just “protecting” the other patrons, I was TEACHING my kids what behavior is required in the situation.

I don’t think it is based on parental income, either. You have wealthy kids acting the brat just like middle and lower class. I think here in the South many of our folks are just too (something). Self-absorbed? Doting? Ignorant? But I don’t think MJGs experience in the upper midwest is unusual. In some regions of the country, there is more of an effort to inculcate in the children polite expectations. Or maybe it was the schools she was in? Some require much higher standards of behavior for their kids. Not sure about that. But here in the South, go to a restaurant, the library, or even CHURCH and see how poorly children are allowed to behave.

David

September 21st, 2011
7:03 am

In my mind #3 is the issue.

I have had it up to my neck with unruly, ill mannered people of ALL AGES; it is not just kids under 10 or 12.

Two weeks ago I was out to lunch with my family (including great grandma) and a table of late aged teenagers were acting out behind us. It proved to be a miserable meal as neither the wait staff nor the manager of the establishment would address the issue.

I hope the restaurant enjoyed the revenue they experienced from our meal, as it will be the last money I spend there for some time to come.

Sunny

September 21st, 2011
7:05 am

I’ll go with #3.

“In the United States today, there is a pervasive tendency to treat children as adults, and adults as children. The options of children are thus steadily expanded, while those of adults are progressively constricted. The result is unruly children and childish adults.” ~Thomas Szasz

This quote pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. There are laws (and social stigmas) preventing parents from physically or verbally chastising their children and many are clueless on other ways to discipline their little darlings so they give up and allow the kids to run wild. I LOVE children, however, it is quite nerve racking to go out to dinner or a store after a stressful day and have to deal with wild children and their electronic babysitters (dvd players, handheld games or Ipads) because the parents are LAZY.

Maybe once more establishments enact these rules, it’ll force the parents to spend more time AT HOME with their little darlings and they’ll be able to see for themselves what kind of monsters they have created and for once, give real parenting and discipline a chance.

John

September 21st, 2011
7:13 am

Grumpy folks. It is either folks who have never had kids, or folks who have forgotten what it is like to have kids.

I know because I used to be childless, and I use to comment on folks with kids. (I’d never advocate a ban, though.) It is a lot easier to say things about how a child should behave when it is not your child, and you do not have to manage one in public.

What surprises me the most, however, are the older folks who have had kids who act this way. These are the folks my parents age, who I knew as a kid and whose kids I knew. And I knew how they reacted in similar situations. And the admonishments being handed out don’t fit how these folks handled me and my friends.

Since having a kid, and being put in situations where she misbehaves in public, I am far more sympathetic to parents. And I also cringe in public when my kid misbehaves. We will take her out of restaurants when she acts up, and we do not try to bring her to movies (much less inappropriate movies—she’ll start with kids movies, thank you), but sometimes you have to do the shopping.

I do think it’s less about misbehaving kids, however, and more about how the parents react to the misbehavior. Some have already touched on their annoyance being the parents reactions. My wife and I try to react “the right way,” but many people (especially those without kids, and a surprising number of those who had kids) appear to have no clue about how to manage kids.

Even so, for all the times I’ve cringed, there are four or five times when I’ve been given verbal support, a “ah, kids” and a grin comment, or told how well behaved my daughter is (despite my wife and I being horrified at her behavior). In other words, for all the jerks out there who appear to hate kids (and their parents), there are many more who sympathize and love kids—warts and tantrums and all—no matter what.

vcatron

September 21st, 2011
7:25 am

I have children and they learned early to behave in public. I do not have issue with children in restaurants who are well manered, those that are unruley that is another story. I see many parents in public who let their spawn do anything. These are the same parents who come on the news and say “He/she is a good boy/girl and they just fell in with the wrong crowd”.

DagnyT

September 21st, 2011
7:28 am

#1 I think it depends on the situation. No, I don’t expect a quiet dinner at Applebee’s, however, I had a nice, expensive birthday dinner at Imperial Fez ruined because the neighboring table brought at toddler “because he could walk around”.

#2 I don’t believe small children belong on airplanes. I have a toddler and I will not take her on an airplane. Maybe the airlines should market “family flights” and “adults only” flights. I would pay extra for an adults only flight. Too many of my flights have been rendered unbearable by screaming children and babies who parents won’t change them.

also #2 when I go to an “R” movie, I don’t expect children there either. That hasn’t been my experience of late, so we simply don’t go to the movies anymore. Though I will say that the behavior of the adults isn’t much better and I do report people for recording the movie if I see their cell phone out during the show. We just watch DVDs at home now. I’m not paying $10 for a movie plus a sitter so the person next to me can text or the 4 year old behind me can kick my seat for 2 hours.

chainshaw

September 21st, 2011
7:33 am

I have two children under 18. It drives me crazy when parents act like they don’t care that their child is screaming and disrupting other people’s hard-earned evening out.

Some restaurants are for families and some are not. When we finally get a night out without the kids, we like to go to a nice restaurant and enjoy that quiet time. The last thing that we want to do is spend a hundred bucks on a meal with a screaming brat beside us.

Wink

September 21st, 2011
7:39 am

I don’t begrudge a baby or 2 year old that has a meltdown in the grocery store, that stuff happens. If I’m in a higher priced restaurant or a theatre I don’t expect to deal with children who are too young to act appropriately. As a child I know we went to nice restaurants, the country club, etc and I can assure you that one look from my parents was enough to quiet us if we began acting up. Children don’t belong everywhere. There was a time when parents stayed home or got a babysitter if they wanted to enjoy an evening out. We should all return to a time of “what will other people think”.

Bella

September 21st, 2011
7:44 am

The wrong people are having the children and the right people are just not having enough of them. I think children today are definitely a product of their environments – I mean just look around at the behaviors that are exhibited in our society these days. A “good parent” can only do so much until a certain age and then “the village” (which is a mess) has their role in the matter.

The South used to not be like this. We are now a melting pot of bad behavior. Heck we are not even a melting pot in this country. The entitlement mentality has taken over – if “they” can get away with “X”, then why can’t I (or my kids) get away with with it. We have done this to ourselves.

BlondeHoney

September 21st, 2011
7:48 am

#3 all the way. When my boys were little, we didn’t bring them to inappropriate places (late movies, expensive restaurants) and when they acted up like all kids do, we removed them from the situation and disciplined them. Too many parents don’t seem to want to actually parent their children and I agree with BobfromAcworth in that the establishment is stuck in the middle – they are afraid of a lawsuit if they take action. The bad apples are spoiling it for all parents.

Tom

September 21st, 2011
7:49 am

You’ve identified the problem…..people aren’t having enough children! When did we get away from the divinely-ordained notion that a woman must spend her life as one of the “Three P’s”…..pre-adolescent, post-menopausal, or PREGNANT?!

Women, you are under a holy edict to get married and start pumping out progeny as prodigiously as possible. This is why we should follow the lead of the Catholic church in The Philippines and move to ban ALL forms of artificial birth control, including condoms.

It’s God’s Will. Amen.

outsider

September 21st, 2011
7:52 am

I am surprised by the tone of some of the commenters here. We have two children, one in elementary school and one in high school. (Our friends and neighbors often comment that they are well behaved.) My wife and I often like to go out for dinner or a movie, and I cannot recall any time that I felt seriously inconvenienced by children. I travel frequently, and I have never felt disturbed by children on planes. I am going to offer reason #5. I think many adults have become spoiled and intolerant of any little disturbance that intrudes on them. Perhaps the growing population of families without children are more sensitive when the disturbance comes from children (your reason #4), and I agree that many children are certainly less well behaved (your reason #3). Nevertheless, I think many adults simply can’t tolerate their little bubble of bliss broken by the slightest inconvenience, even a brief shriek of joy from a toddler.

Me

September 21st, 2011
8:04 am

I don’t have an issue with dining while kids are present provided they are reasonably well-behaved predicated upon their age. With that said, however, I am also not opposed to any restaurant, or other privately ovned entity, enacting or enforcing such a ban. I really cannot believe that @TWG actually placed “fine dining” and Applebees in the same sentence. If we are at some fast-food restaurant or an Applebees or similar, for instance, I have different expectations than I do when dining at one of the “Ray’s” restaurants, Woodfire Grill, Tavern at Phipps, etc.
As it relates to the “brat ban”, I feel these establishments are doing what they feel the need to do and I, for one, will not hold this against them. I also won’t frequent these places simply based on the presence of the “brat ban”.

mystery poster

September 21st, 2011
8:05 am

OK, I’ll go with consensus and also vote #3. A few examples:

My daughter worked in a clothing store. She told countless stories of people letting their kids run into the racks of clothes and pull them off and they parents didn’t say a word to them (and the employees were not allowed to). I would have been mortified if my kids did that in a store, and you bet they would have been hanging them back up!

We were in the an urgent care office waiting to be seen. It was very crowded and the kid next to us was really acting up. Granted, I know he didn’t feel well. Later, my husband said to me that if that had been our kid, he would have taken him outside and had a talk with him. It may not have worked, but at least we would have made our expectation clear.

I was checking out at Aldi a few months ago, and someone was letting their brat run all along the bagging counter. The cashier did tell him to get down, which he did. When it was my turn I commended her for saying something, and she said people bag their groceries there and it’s not sanitary to have kids running on it.

The sad thing is: this complete lack of parenting hurts the kids, because it makes them into such brats that no one likes them (as is evident by these brat-bans).

Roekest

September 21st, 2011
8:08 am

A couple weeks ago, we went to go eat Mexican. Not an actual Mexican, mind you; we’re not cannibals. Our daughter proceeded to stand on the seat (after repeated warnings not to) and started playing with this lizard-decoration on the wall. It then fell into the booth of the people sitting behind us.

I can understand the bans.

justmy2cents

September 21st, 2011
8:08 am

I’m going with #3- lack of home training and discipline from parents. Used to be all parents had to do was give “the look” and kids toed the line. Now parents promise them toys, cookies, ice cream if they pretty please behave how they are supposed to, instead of nipping bad behavior in the bud. Of course, at least those parents are “trying”, you still have the ones that just let them do anything they want. Take the 3 year old firing the shotgun in the car as an example….

Right on

September 21st, 2011
8:14 am

It is America, so you have the right to ban brats.

Kids today are without discipline and parents aren’t parents anymore. They expect teachers to rear their kids. Children are being created to be a new best friend or child labor, not a child. I’m not a baby boomer and I don’t want to have kids ever. Especially in today’s society. And I don’t want to be around your kids.

Take the little brats to Chuck E. Cheese where they belong.

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
8:22 am

@outsider…those of us who have spent many years in the classroom with children understand the joy of being with children. I love children and I thank all of the parents who have children that have been instructed how to behave.

I was in a room with 120 children in Montana and we were hopping, spinning, twirling, laughing and having a lot of fun. I can tolerate this for quite a while ( most every day) and some teachers are even amazed at what transpires. BUT when it comes time to sit down and listen, they do it with my cues. Teachers are required to learn about classroom management. Not all are good at it. Parents are typically not required to learn about family/child management. Many are not good at it but KUDOS to those who are!

Children ARE going to misbehave. I did it and so did the rest of you. I spilled things, talked too loud, laughed, and carried on just like kids do today. It is how the adults who were with me responded that shaped the way I am. Children need direction and guidelines and some parents have no idea!

Adults who ignore their children or think they are “just being kids…lighten up…” have no clue IMHO. Again, they will grow up and be your kids not mine.

Dogs will bark…those who are left alone in their back yard all day will bark incessantly. Is it the dog’s fault? NO it is the owner’s. We have a yard of 3 dogs on our block that make things uncomfortable. Thankfully they are not on the same side of the street as me.

I have said this before and it applies to everyone here:

When other adults such as neighbors, teachers, employers, restaurant owners, store clerks, etc. tell you what nice kids you have….be proud that you did a good job. I have heard this all the way from preschool to the people who employ my children now as college students. YES they have had melt downs but we picked up the pieces and moved on…we did not laugh and ignore the behavior. We explained and directed their behavior. Some of the rest of you have had proud moments like this and you obviously are doing a good job with your kids too. HOORAH! Your children will be proud of themselves and this does mean more than you being proud of them! If this is not happening to you…look around and find a family whose kids you admire. Ask them what their ideas are on rearing children and LISTEN.

HOW exactly does and owner kick people out with unruly children? I agree that this could be a lawsuit in today’s world!

J

September 21st, 2011
8:24 am

MJG had a particularly valid point in her response…she did not take her children out to dinner at 9:00 p.m. and expect them to be pleasant. In my experience, the most poorly behaved children that I have seen are ones that are out and about when they should be at home in bed. Even kids that are normally well-behaved will misbehave when they are exhausted.

Whorlybird

September 21st, 2011
8:26 am

It’s #4, with a little bit of #3. Many people here don’t seem to want to admit that they’re little more than selfish jerks who just don’t like kids and don’t want to be around them. Yes, kids have changed for the worse these days, but so have adults, who are so self absorbed that they consider any kind of intrusion to their Applebees dinner to be unacceptable. To all you businesses with brat bans: Keep it up and see how much it costs you in the long run. Like it or not, families with kids are valuable customers and they’re more than happy to ditch your establishment for somewhere else friendly and welcoming to all consumers.

Lady Strange

September 21st, 2011
8:26 am

So Roekest, why didn’t you do something besides verbal warnings when your daughter didn’t listen to you? I can understand verbal warnings, my son gets those, but if he doesn’t listen then he gets punished.

Traffuc Headache

September 21st, 2011
8:27 am

Working at a grocery store, I will vouch that kids can be well-behaved. It’s the 5% of the moms of any income demograhic (soccer moms, welfare moms, etc.) who bring in little banshees and completely tune them out while shopping, to the annoyance of everyone in the building. There should be no ban on kids–just eject the caterwaulers and their ignorant moms.

Don'tmakemestopthiscar

September 21st, 2011
8:29 am

Number #3! Like many others here, if I misbehaved in public I would receive 1 warning. It was then followed by removal and a swat on the butt. Sometimes in the opposite order. It was non negotiable. I really don’t think anyone expects perfect angels, but we can tell when the parents are not even trying to make them behave. Yes, your kid might melt down in the grocery store, and if they’re too young to understand, there’s not much you can do about it. And most reasonable folks know that. However, if your 5 year old is throwing fit, you are expected in the words of my father “to give them something to cry about.”

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
8:29 am

RE: the lizard in the Mexican restaurant. We ate at Folks ( family restaurant) after church one Sunday. A boy ( 7 or so) behind us was crawling all over the booth and hopping in and out. The waitress passed with empty plates and the boy bumped her. The plate flew at my husband and ketchup went all over his suit. Should we excuse the boy since it was not a fancy restaurant? No apology was offered by the family. The waitress said, “I’m sorry!” It was really not her fault. We ended up with a suit going to the cleaners.

The hotel clerk I mentioned told me that if a guest room is very loud and disturbing others ( late at night), with repeated complaints, they call first and then bill the rooms that complained to the offenders account…NICE!

Rodney

September 21st, 2011
8:32 am

Full Disclosure: I’m a gay man, without children, in his early 40s.

I also have a neice and nephew that I would give anything I have for, so I have SOME degree of emotional attachment to children.

That said – I think #1 is the most applicable. I *know* when I go in an Applebees or any other resto of its kind to expect children (which is why I don’t go!) and I would never complain about kids – well, unless they were the running around the table kind. That’s not appropriate anywhere.

But – I do dine out a lot, a few times per week, at other more grown-up places and there, I expect any child present to be as well behaved as my parents would have made me be. Sit in your chair, speak with an inside voice, please and thank you, don’t play with your food …

Of course we all know that doesn’t happen because kids are not adults. No kid acts like that. :)

Anyway – I guess I expect both a bit of parental responsibility (on the part of the kid’s parents) and personal responsibility (on me, not going to family-friendly restos).

LeeH1

September 21st, 2011
8:34 am

I think it’s a matter of class. In the past, only middle class and above families went out to restaurants, and their kids were usually pretty well behaved and well mannered.

But as more and more lower class people were able to afford to dine in restaurants, their kids did not fit the middle class norm of well behaved and well mannered children. They run about, throw food, scream and do everything they can to get and keep attention on themselves. Their parents are indifferent to their noise, and they don’t have the social skills to realize they are annoying other people.

Until more parents get their kids under control, they will ruin other people’s dinning out unless they are restricted. You cannot restrict because of class, but you can restrict because of under-age, and this is what good restaurants do.

Lower class people don’t love their children enough to teach them how to behave well in public. But their children sure follow their parent’s examples, and learn how to whine.

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
8:34 am

@whorlybird…it would be interesting to see if the brat ban restaurants are losing more revenue than the kids eat free establishments….anyone else?

Wonder who tips better, adults who eat at a brat ban restaurant or those with table full of kids who eat free? Anyone work in a restaurant that can comment? We tip 20% if the service is good and I tip more when I am out on business and have had a nice quiet dinner in a nicer restaurant.

I LOVE kids and enjoy their energy every day….just not the ones who ruin my dinner out. There are some who are delightful and I appreciate their parents. Thanks!

Duder

September 21st, 2011
8:35 am

I waited tables off and on for 7 years, it’s #3 head and shoulders above the other speculations. “More permissive” parents (read:bad/lazy) don’t teach their kids to behave or punish bad behavior…interestingly enough this is a root cause for the problems in the public schools too.

Innocent Bystander

September 21st, 2011
8:35 am

I apologize in advance to the parents that control their children, but the simple fact remains that you are in a tiny minority. I work in a “child rich” environment and am continually horrified at the behavior of todays children. If I or any of my three siblings had behaved in such a manner growing up, we’d have instantly regretted it. My parents were stern but fair and taught us in no uncertain terms that we were to act with respect and moderation at all times.

The truly asinine part of the equation is not the actual screaming child, it’s the parents responsible for the child’s lack of manners and how they ignore the problem and expect the rest of us to accept screaming children as the status quo.

chappy

September 21st, 2011
8:37 am

Bring back discipline or ban them. Parents that have so little control of their kids that “go the F__ k to sleep” is cute, unfortunately, do not understand they have no concept of social graces and pity their kids, but don’t want to be around them either.

commoncents

September 21st, 2011
8:37 am

It’s #3. Parents are way too soft, and most seem to never discipline their child.

“When did we go from ‘It takes a village’ and ‘Children are our future’ to ‘Get the hell out of here you loud, whining brat’?””

The village can’t get involved anymore without someone crying foul and suing. I read the other day where a parent was arrested for spanking their child and the judge said something along the lines of “We don’t spank kids anymore. Not in this day and age.”

mountain mom

September 21st, 2011
8:38 am

Absolutely number 3. My kids are now 10 and 15, and I am proud to say that any rare bad behavior in public was quickly met with firm and consistent discipline and a removal from the restuarant or store. My tolerance for bad parenting has dwindled to zero. You parents who count (”One…. two….I really mean it…. two and a half…..”) are almost worse than the ones who ignore bad behavior. The loud counting (over and over, with no follow through) just adds to the cacophony.

John Tackett

September 21st, 2011
8:39 am

Some parents do not want to be parents but want to be friends to their children. When they turn 18 you can be their friend, until then, be a parent and control your tax deductions!! Because of that small percentage all parents are suffering the consequences through “Brat Bans.”

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
8:41 am

@LeeH1…excellent points! I see families at Red Lobster and Longhorn’s in the middle of the week. Their tab has to be $100. We could never have afforded that, several times a week, when our kids were little. We ate out on the weekends only and it was a treat. If parents are both working long hours and pulling in almost $200,000 they can afford to eat out but many are too tired to handle their kids who have been at daycare all day. I am NOT opposed to day care but the employees there can only instill so many manners/values into a room full of kids. Kind of like parents who bring their child to school and tell the teacher:

HERE YOU DO SOMETHING WITH HIM….right!

Metro Coach

September 21st, 2011
8:48 am

A whipping does wonders to discipline an unruly child. I, and probably many others here, can count and name the exact times that they heard that belt come down out of the closet of off of dad’s waist. Dolllars to doughnuts says most of us didn’t repeat those behaviors again. I know I didn’t. I still got in trouble, and eventually “whippings” were replaced with other forms of punishment, grounding, no tv, etc. but if your kid isn’t a little bit afraid of what you, as a parent, might do if they misbehave then they have no reason to behave in the first place. And before any of you liberal, tree hugging whiners start, spare me the “child abuse” bull cookies. It isn’t abuse, its discipline, and there is a difference.

mystery poster

September 21st, 2011
8:49 am

@Lee
I respectfully disagree that it is lower class parents. IMHO, it’s just as often the upper middle class who have read all the latest “parent raising” books, try to befriend their kids, and give them every single indulgence, from material goods to lack of discipline.

DB

September 21st, 2011
8:52 am

Kids will be kids. I’m not sure the kids are more badly behaved — I think they are just being kids, but they are being taken out far more often than they used to be, and probably more than is good for them. Goodness, when I was growing up, we went out to dinner every Friday night — and that was that. And that was more than most of my friends. In my world, the adults went out to dinner and the kids got left with a babysitter. Of course, my mother worked, which was rare, too — most of the families had stay-at-home moms, moms who had quit work to stay home with their families.

Now, no one thinks twice about taking kids out to dining establishments at any time of the day or night. I’ve seen 2 and 3 year olds dragged to cafes at 10-11 pm that stay open until 1 or 2 am — what the hell? How is that any fun for the kid or the people around them?

I have been known to decline a seat next to a messy baby in a high chair, or in a booth next to antsy kids. Why not? Bringing your kids into a restaurant does not make them automatically charming. You might think I’m grouchy for not wanting to sit next to a table of excited or tired kids — so be it. I think you’re an idiot for dragging kids out in public when they are tired and hungry and expecting everyone else to tolerate their whining, crying and restlessness. So we’re even.

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
8:54 am

I love the “This is America for crying out loug!” comment. How ignorant is she?

Yes; this is America where a business owner can make the decision to not allow children into his/her establishment. The owner will have to face the consequences if they lose business over that decision.

I have two kids, and I love them endlessly. If a shop / or restaraunt doesn’t want me coming in 28 our of thirty days in a month because my kids are with me, they simply lose my business. That’s OK with me. It’s their decision, and if they are trying to set an ambiance that doesn’t include kids so be it.

All of that said, you call my kid a brat and I’ll knock you GD teeth out. They are both extremely friendly and well-behaved and assigning that monicker to all kids is the only thing about all of this that ticks me off.

Lori

September 21st, 2011
8:56 am

I agree with everyone on #3. You see parents in places begging their kids to sit down and behave, or saying please be quiet, or whatever. My personal favorite is the ones who threaten the kids….”stop that or I’ll…” but then they never actually follow through with the threat. My son is 8 now, so he knows how to behave, but when he was 3 or so, if he screamed or threw something (which probably only happened once or twice) he sure experienced the consequences. I’d snatch his little butt up and take him outside or to the car and let his little booty have it.

Or if you on are on your way somewhere, and you threaten to turn the car around if they don’t stop misbehaving, you’d better be prepared to follow through. But I think that’s the problem. Parents don’t follow through. They are more concerned with the fact that THEY want to go out and do something fun, and if the kids aren’t in the right mood that day, sometimes you have to be a parent and sacrifice that fun day for a night at home.

But all that being said, I don’t really see all that many poorly behaved kids in restaurants, so I guess I don’t understand the ban. Maybe I just don’t go to the same places that are having all these problems. Even at the movies, vary rarely is there a screaming baby, and usually the parents will exit the theater. They play the darn movies so loud now, you couldn’t hear someone talking anyway. I have more problems with adults in movie theaters, with their stupid texting phones lighting up the place!!

Spacey

September 21st, 2011
8:57 am

I think it is a lot of #4. I see it on this blog all the time.
When I had my second child (very close to the first), I was surprised at how much I had forgotten. A good friend told me that was God’s way of making sure you would have another blessing.
It is the cycle of life. When you are older, cannot have children, it is good to appreciate them from a distance. With the exception of a bad experience here or there, you probably do not notice all the children around you everyday.

Tom

September 21st, 2011
9:03 am

All you barren women of Satan need to ask God forgiveness and start doing your holy duty. Go forth and multiply.

shaggy

September 21st, 2011
9:05 am

“3.Critics say parents today are more permissive that past generations and their kids are less behaved and therefore less welcome.”

This should really be numbers 1 through 10…it’s that bad. Parents won’t discipline their kids. These are the same kids that play soccer, without keeping score, so they will have better self-esteem…which is a pure crock of horse squeeze.

Denise

September 21st, 2011
9:11 am

My issue is when kids are places at inappropriate TIMES. For example, kids should not be at the movies at 9:00 PM in my opinion. They should be winding down. If a kid has a meltdown at home at bedtime, do you think they will NOT have one just because they are in public? Yes, you paid your $10 and want to see the end of the movie but when you have kids sometimes you have to suck it up and miss out. No, I don’t have kids but sometimes I miss out on some things because my friends have kids and I don’t want to go alone. (I do some things alone but some stuff is just not fun by yourself and my 2 single friends are not always available or have money.) And because my friends have little kids, when the kids go out with us, we don’t go to fancy places. We go to Applebee’s where the kids can make a little more noise without aggravating everyone around. (The Applebee’s by us is noisy all the time, without kids, and it’s not like the scream and holler like little banshees!) My friends have taken their kids outside for little “chats” about their behavior and, miraculously, the kids come back with attitude adjustments. That’s because they get attitude adjustments all the time at the house and they are just getting reminders. They aren’t perfect and sometimes I get annoyed so when I am not in the mood for kids I don’t go out with them or see if the friend can get parenting help (I don’t think a parent “babysits” their own kid). If not, I decide whether I go alone or don’t go. Also, keep in mind, some PARENTS want to leave their kids at home too and might want to take advantage of a kid-free atmosphere! :-)

BlondeHoney

September 21st, 2011
9:15 am

Lori, you are SOOO right…I have a very close friend who in that repsect is a horrible parent. Her son is almost 12 and still misbehaves in public, throws tantrums, etc and she is always threatening and never making good onthose threats. The boy told me himself that he acts out because he knows his mom gives in and never carries through on what she says she is going to do. At one point, I told him in front of his mom that if his behavior did not improve I was taking away his Xbox..and then I did, for an entire week. And that was the best week my friend ever had with her son; once the Xbox was returned, he quickly reverted to his usual behavior. I love my friend but it’s hard to be around them…

Denise

September 21st, 2011
9:18 am

Teresa, my post was eaten and I promise it was not bad.

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
9:20 am

@TWG, I was able to deduce about 74.7 million children under 18, but I’ll agree with you. The Census bureau put out too many reports. I’m pretty sure but not positive that I’m looking at the whole sample or not.

I used “Table C1. Household Relationship and Family Status of Children Under 18 Years, by Age and Sex: 2010″. My assumption is that they are counting all children. I used their “total” number, and it seems like 74.7 million is pretty reasonable for all of the kids in America.

I think that is up from about 72.3 million in 2003.

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
9:30 am

@shaggy, they keep score for the older kids….at least where we play for baseball. It’s just for the little ones that score isn’t kept while we are teaching fundamentals of playing.

In baseball we are teaching them to hit and field. Not much value in learning 3 outs per inning. We want them to learn to run on contact to the right base on offense and field the ball and throw it to the correct base on defense. This would be pretty difficult if the little ones were playing by the rules. The game is only an hour and 15 minutes. Left to their own abilities at this point, the first team would never finish batting. We’ve accomplished a grand total of 4 “outs” in 3 games.

6 kids bat each inning….no matter how many outs are made or runs are scored. This allows us to work on the fundamentals of base running and fielding. Teaching them the nuances of the rules will come later, and it seems pointless to keep score until all of the rules are followed.

My kid is 4, and he will play under these rules until he is 7. At that point they will start keeping score…just in time for the actual rules of the game to be taught.

  

September 21st, 2011
9:32 am

All of that said, you call my kid a brat and I’ll knock you GD teeth out.

I think you need to cool it with this kind of talk.

abc

September 21st, 2011
9:33 am

Given the behaviors of adult Gen Xers, it’s no big revelation that their children have no clue about proper behavior in public. Loud, obnoxious, figuring they’re entitled to whatever they want because they ordered a combo 1 at the Mexican joint, or bought a movie theater ticket. People’s lack of manners in general is completely appalling, including their children.

Teacher, Too

September 21st, 2011
9:41 am

It’s not about people without children being selfish or hating children. Sorry, but no, that’s not correct. Parents need to TEACH their child how to behave at a dining room table. That begins at home by sitting down to family meals, learning the art of dinner conversation, and table manners. Once children can do this at home, then you take them to family restaurants. Finally, when they are older and can handle a longer fine dining experience and can sit still for an hour and half or longer, then you take them to the fine dining establishments.

That’s what good parents do to teach their children how to behave in different dining establishments– and they have already taught them the fundamentals.

I think that is what our parents did (most of us who are in our forties and older). Also, as another poster pointed out, eating out was definitely an extravagance. My parents went out to dinner on their parent “dates”. The children were not invited. For special occasions, we went to dinner as a family– such as birthdays. But on a regular basis, we sat down to dinner as a family.

Sylvania

September 21st, 2011
9:42 am

“So I think the baby boomers are getting older, are child free and crotchety in their new freedom, They only want to see kids when and if they choose and how dare you interrupt their dinner”.

Right. Because it has absolutely nothing to do with the waves of entitled parents bringing their misbehaving spawn for us to coo over and can’t be bothered to teach them basic manners, like not screaming, running around restaurants, pulling stuff off of store shelves and generally not acting like brats.

And yet, once again,the childfree are painted as child-hating, grumpy elitists who have no sympathy for all the hard work and sacrifices that poor widdle parents have to make in order to raise children. Clearly, we don’t want anyone with kids to go out and enjoy their lives like the rest of us, because asking them to at a minimum to make an honest attempt to have their children behave in public is too much of an imposition.

Why do today’s parents come off feeling so entitled, anyway?

  

September 21st, 2011
9:56 am

And yet, once again,the childfree are painted as child-hating, grumpy elitists who have no sympathy for all the hard work and sacrifices that poor widdle parents have to make in order to raise children. Clearly, we don’t want anyone with kids to go out and enjoy their lives like the rest of us, because asking them to at a minimum to make an honest attempt to have their children behave in public is too much of an imposition.

+1

Amy in the ATL

September 21st, 2011
9:57 am

I have two girls, ages 4 and 6. We travel a lot, and we eat out a lot, and in general, they behave well in public. But that’s because 1.) I typically plan things when they won’t be too tired (and therefore more likely to act up, 2.) I bring quiet activities that are appropriate for a restaurant or airplance to keep them occuped (coloring books, Hi Lites magazines, etc) and 3.) my kids know that I have no problem removing them from the situation if they don’t behave accordingly. But it can be a struggle, especially when we are at a restaurant and my kids see other families letting their kids run around and my girls can’t understand why they aren’t allowed to do the same. And it’s the lack of parental concern about others who are in the same public space that is driving most of these bans. Most people don’t mind well-behaved kids. But even if 90% of the kids in a particular setting are behaving, it 10% aren’t, folks will remember that 10% who caused their evening not to be so pleasant.

I will also agree that the secondary issue may be that there are more families without children, and Baby Boomers in general just become more and more crotchety with age, which also explains the prevalence of seniors-only housing developments.

On a side note, my oldest daughter’s school is offering an “Etiquette Class” as an after-school enrichment program, and I jumped at the chance to enroll her. I wish more schools, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts programs would do the same!!!

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
9:58 am

Yay! “Entitled”….my favorite buzz word du jour.
Why not throw out some old classics like “Outside the Box” or “leverage” while you’re at it?

JATL

September 21st, 2011
9:58 am

Actually I’ve become far less “child friendly” AFTER having kids! When I go to adult places (non G movies or any movie starting after 8pm, high end restaurants, BARS, etc.,) I DO NOT WANT TO BE AROUND YOUR MISBEHAVED KIDS!!!! I’ve managed to escape my own for the evening and get a sitter, so you can do the same or STAY HOME. Can’t afford a sitter? Sorry -ypu had kids while being financially strapped and I don’t need to suffer for it. Don’t trust a sitter? Get off the helicopter or stay at home wearing your kid -not my problem.

Kids used to be made to behave. Some still are (mine are)! I’m sadly amazed when we’ve gotten compliments on how well-behaved our kids are on the few occasions they haven’t been and I’m busy hustling them out of where we are! Also, the parents who refuse to amend their lifestyles are huge culprits. It’s really not your baby or toddler’s fault if they don’t enjoy being at a fine-dining establishment, non-animated film, bar or concert at 10pm. Grow up and get some gumption! Parents who seem to think they still get to do everything they did before – only now dragging baby along- are the worst!

I love Brat Bans. I hope they become far more common. Give kids something to look forward to! It’s really not that difficult to tell them, “Sorry, you can’t go tonight -it’s only for grown ups!”

Fed Up

September 21st, 2011
10:12 am

My parents would have died of embarrassment with the things parents let their children do in public today. I don’t go to Applebees, Chili’s or Chuck E Cheese for that matter. I live in town and go to pubs, bars and non-chain restaurants. There is food all over the floor underneath the table, children are let to run among the table and diners and they do scream, whine, hollar etc with no sign of the parents correcting that behavior. I have seen waiters and waitresses with full trays of food or drinks almost get knocked over from children running around with concern for anybody else. I am tired of going to bars (which happen to also serve food) after 8:00 and there are still children there. There should be adult time and adult establishments.

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
10:13 am

@ Amy and anyone else…did you guys read the legislation ( for schools) about SOFT SKILLS for students?
My husband informed me this was SOFTWARE….NOT!

It is how to pull your pants up and dress/ behave appropriately for a job interview. Appears too many kids are not arriving with manners and behavior expectations…just what teachers need: another thing that parents are not doing.

MMOT

September 21st, 2011
10:19 am

I don’t like the name Brat Ban. It’s very derogatory and mean spirited.

My children, 3 and 5 are very well behaved (compliments all around). My husband and I are not passive parents. We subscribe to old-school method of parenting. And it works. My children are not only well behaved but smart and ahead of the curve.

With that being said, I know there are places my children shouldn’t visit. For example, our children only go to movies for children. It works my nerve to be on a date with my husband and someone decides it’s okay to bring their infant to a movie. I have never and will never take my children to a dark theatre to see violence and horror and vulgar language. I don’t even curse around my children.

In regards to restaurants, I recently visted PF Changs and a small child was dancing and twirling in the isles. Although she was cute, it wasn’t cute that her parents ignored this when she was clearly in the path of staff serving others. And when I’m out enjoying dinner, whether with my children or not, I don’t need or desire to see a production put on by someone’s child. McDonalds is always open and they serve items under 300 calories. You should try them and there are those that have playgrounds for your active small ones. But if I am responsible enough to parent my children properly and effectively and have them behave, then I expect the same for all children.

I do feel that some people have just become intolerable to others. And that’s okay too because I hate a smoker and more over those smokers that smoke at the door and have no regard for others when/while they are smoking.

Just my two cents…

Warrior Woman

September 21st, 2011
10:22 am

You’re forgetting #5 – Many people are selfish and self-centered beyond belief and don’t want to have to deal with anyone else’s wants, needs, or rights. This explains 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Becky

September 21st, 2011
10:22 am

I think it’s a little of #3 & #4..My two know how to act when we go out to eat..Of course the “nicest” places that we have ever taken them to is Olive Garden, Longhorns and a couple of others..

I love kids and don’t mind being around them when I’m out to eat, but like others, I do not like to be around kids that aren’t made to behave..As someone said, kids are kids and they do act up at times, but when they do, that is the perfect time to teach them not to do that again..:~)

We have taken our two to eaet on Sunday after church and have been out until 9:00 or so..But we are usually at the IHOP and haven’t had issues with them being bratty..So if a restaurant wants to ban children, that is their right..Like has been mentioned, if I were somewhere eating that the meal was going to cost me $100 or more, NO, I don’t want to listen to your child screaming or being a brat..

Amy in the ATL

September 21st, 2011
10:24 am

@ motherjanegoose—I agree we don’t need to load “Etiquette” or “Soft Skills” curriculum on teachers (although in my experience, most good teachers set high expectations for appropriate behavior in the classroom already). At my daughter’s school, this is something that is offered as an extra-curricular activity during the after care program. The kids role play good and bad restaurant behavior, how to talk to adults, how to set a fancy table, etc. The kids actually seem to enjoy it and it’s helping to reinforce what my husband and I have tried to teach our girls. I’d love to see these types of classes being offered at more places……

MMOT

September 21st, 2011
10:27 am

And let me just add that I notice how rude people are in our everyday lives. And my children are even quick to point it out. ‘Excuse me’, ‘thank you’, ‘pardon me’, ‘please’, ‘ma’am’ and/or ’sir’ are hardly ever used. My children we taught this prior to their 1st birthdays. And I see ADULTS on a regular basis who will walk right in front of you and in your personal space and not say ‘excuse me’. How rude!! I would guess some of these same people are all for this ban of children from restaurants.

MMOT

September 21st, 2011
10:30 am

Isn’t it hilarious how we have so much to say about teachers? Their pay is too much or too little. They are treated unfairly. They need to toughen up. They need to stop complaining. They should pick a different profession if they don’t like the pay. They should this or they should that. But when it comes to teaching OUR CHILDREN proper etiquette we want TEACHERS to take on that responsibility. They are YOUR/OUR children and it’s your/our RESPONSIBLITY to be sure they know how to behave when away from home. IJS

Tom

September 21st, 2011
10:30 am

My wife and I were at the Wednesday night performance of Celtic Woman a couple of weeks ago. There was a couple in front of us (mezzanine) that brought their two childer….who must’ve been no older than 6 and 4. By 30 minutes into the performance, the younger one (boy) couldn’t sit still and was making noises banging a plastic cup around.

Seriously? If you can’t afford a babysitter, what are you doing sitting in $75 seats at the Fox? Wait for the DVD, idiots.

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
10:36 am

@ Amy…I am all about those classes and think it is a wonderful program. Just do not dump it on the classroom teachers, who are already overwhelmed. They are already trying to teach so many things that parents have missed. Off to enjoy the giggles and laughs of little kids. Have a nice day all!

Tom

September 21st, 2011
10:37 am

This is what happens when children learn how to behave by watching their parents tailgate at ugag.

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
10:38 am

@ jarvis…just step on an airplane and you will see that the folks who are flying today ( $149 r/t) are not in the same league as those who flew in the 1960’s and 1970’s or even 1980’s. Yes, there were lots of problems then but common courtesy seemed to be a step ahead of what it is today. Am I the only one who thinks so?

Alan

September 21st, 2011
10:38 am

I don’t go to chuckeycheeze for dinner parents are always welcome there with kids,

Alan

September 21st, 2011
10:42 am

Can’t take my nice none barking dog on a plane, but crying screaming kicking seat kids are welcome. let’s try this put the kids under the plane and let the pets ride in the cabin!

Westen

September 21st, 2011
10:45 am

Kids are swell – in the proper context. The thing is, many of today’s self-absorbed moms want to have it all. They want to have the same social life as before they had their precious little snowflake, so they bring the little tyke along to places that are inappropriate, like pubs and fine dining establishments. They can’t seem to understand that other grown ups might not take joy in the little scamps’ behavior at night. You know, during sexy time? Anyway, I loves me some well-behaved kids but I wish even their parents might consider more appropriate nighttime venues or at least the service that was used in days of yore: babysitters.

HB

September 21st, 2011
10:46 am

Haha, Jarvis! Thanks for the reminder that the good old days weren’t so good…

oneofeach4me

September 21st, 2011
10:46 am

I think Jeff, Outsider, and WholyBird have excellent points.

My kids are well behaved and full of energy. They like stimulation and get excited by it which can cause them to get antsy. Waiting 45 minutes to an hour for food, sitting in a chair coloring is just not gonna cut it. They won’t be running around the restaurant throwing food everywhere… but they may start laughing and telling jokes and get a little louder than the kid-less couple next to us would prefer. This is why when it comes to eating out, I only go to kid friendly places with my kids (i.e. Stevie B’s, Chuck E Cheese, Chick-Fil-A, McDonald’s). Because to be honest, we are a middle class family and eating out is already expensive. When we go out to a nice restaurant, it is as a date night, not just a “family meal”. Kinda makes you wonder…..the ones eating out with their kids in nice restaurants probably have a nice income to go along with it. So the class war thing just doesn’t make sense here.

As for stores… HA! Get over yourselves! I don’t have a live in nanny or babysitter so my kids have to go grocery shopping with me. For the most part my kids to very well. However, I too have been the parent who sees the other parent struggling with their kid in the store who is having a meltdown. You know what I do?? I try to HELP them out, lighten the situation up instead of JUDGING them or automatically assuming they are a bad parent! My nephew is a very well behaved 5 yr old, but even HE has had meltdowns in stores before. That kid that you think is so well behaved could also flip out 15 minutes later!

As for movies, sure, ban the kids for the rated R movies and late movies (which is why they only show kid movies earlier in the day). My kids ONLY go to see kid formulated movies. And if you are shushing my kids at a Disney movie, you choose the wrong one to see. Kids should behave, but they should also have fun. There has to be a balance.

Oh, and to all of you pro #3ers… you are probably the same people that would call DFACS on the parent in the bathroom who has removed their misbehaving child from the table to give them a good swift spank on the bottom!!! They say today’s children are less well behaved, yet you cannot even raise your voice at your child without someone saying or thinking you are out of line!! Can’t have it both ways people!

Gtmom

September 21st, 2011
10:48 am

Some restaurants would go under if they banned kids. I am all for letting the business owner decide. If they don’t want kids, it is their property. But I have seen numerous restaurants try to do that in my area and they have gone under. The ones with kids menus and are tolerant of kids seem to be thriving. Not everyone can afford babysitting at (11-15 dollars per hour) and our built in babysitters (grandparents) don’t live close by.. in my experience in Atlanta. I totally think it should be a business owner’s decision on what they want but understand if they lose ton of clients, why? Look at your demographics. Almost every other house in my neighborhood has a child under the age of 10. You can lose tons of business if you don’t cater to that environment. I don’t want anyone to tell me what to do on my property. I think a business owner should have the same right.. be that they want to allow kids or not.

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
10:49 am

@TWG, why is my comment now “awaiting moderation”?

It is certainly not the wildest thing I’ve said on here….not to mention it has already been commented on, so I’m assuming it was not previously “awaiting moderation”.

shaggy

September 21st, 2011
10:50 am

jarvis,

Why not teach them sports fundamentals at home…father (or mother for that matter) and let the kids teach the competition of score keeping…winning or losing contested games. I have found that methodology to be very effective.
I am aware that the parents often go overboard on thinking their litle guy/girl is the next super athlete that will earn gazillions of $$s, but all in all, the kids will manage and possibly forge life long friendships. in the process.

shaggy

September 21st, 2011
10:56 am

jarvis,

Don’t reply… I didn’t get the “at 7″ break into the real scoring game part of your post. That is about the right age for them to understand rules of baseball and scoring for real.

I am getting more coffee…late night last night. We went and attempted to massacre some deer for the freezer and only ended up massacring some 12 ounce cans of beer after the hunting was over.

HB

September 21st, 2011
10:58 am

To be fair, mjg, environment can have a huge influence on people’s behavior. People are less courteous when they are stressed out, so by the time they’ve waited in long lines to check themselves in, paid to check their bags, waited again for the privilege of being scanned and/or groped while trying to keep an eye on their bags sitting on the conveyor belt where any one can grab them, and then get crammed into a seat 2/3 the size and many inches closer to the one in front of them than seats 20 years ago, I don’t think you can assume that people in general are less courteous or “a different league.” Today’s air travel can make even the nicest people irritable, snippy, and less concerned with those around them.

abc

September 21st, 2011
11:04 am

I agree that travelling by plane these days is like travelling by bus in decades past, as far as the people zoo goes.

JJ

September 21st, 2011
11:29 am

Again, this is why I don’t patronize restaurants. Unruly kids, high prices, and horrible food. I’ll stay at home and grill with the neighbors thank you!!!

Erica

September 21st, 2011
11:31 am

I think the intolerance of children is a mixture of things. First, children are more outspoken and exposed than in prior generations. By exposed, I mean exposed to more technology, travel, education, etc. at such a young age. Many kids have eaten in restaurants, traveled on airplanes, etc.well before the age of 5. Second, as kids have “evolved” from prior generations, parenting mores have changed. Parents are a bit less structured and are encouraging kids to be more expressive. While these two changes have occured, our society has morphed into one that has become less tolerant, period.

I cringed when I read today’s topic. As a mom who along with my husband, is trying to raise a mannerable, intelligent happy little person, I read both the topic and some of these comments and wondered if our society has become so hardened and intolerant and impatient that we’ve forgotten that WE WERE ONCE KIDS TOO!!!! The concept of referring to a child as a “brat” is just plain ugly. Yes, parents need to take care to ensure that their children are not a disruption in public places. That’ s a life lesson for kids. But, for example, the poster who argued for “adults only” flights, is the sound of a little kid’s happy laugh or even a cry that much of an intrusion? Maybe we all need to remember that we were once little too. What if we were viewed as an intrusion or as brats? Seriously, what is our world coming to?

oneofeach4me

September 21st, 2011
11:43 am

@Erica ~ touché!!

Lady Strange

September 21st, 2011
11:44 am

As some others have said, not all of us can shop without our children. I have to take my son with me when I go shopping. He doesn’t always behave when he’s in the store, but shopping has to be done. Sometimes he has a meltdown. I’m not going to leave the grocery store just because he’s having a tantrum. I will however do my best to calm the situation as quickly as I can.

I also don’t take him to the movies yet, IMO he’s not old enough to sit through a whole movie.
I also don’t take him places to eat that aren’t considered family places. He is expected to behave, doesn’t always happen but I’m not beyond taking him to the bathroom till he quiets down.

abc

September 21st, 2011
11:52 am

My kids never had public meltdowns. About the worst it got was when my middle son was 3 or 4, at the grocery store, he loudly exclaimed “look how FAT that lady is!!”. I explained to him after the fact why he’d not want to do that, and he understood, even as a little guy. They’d run around restaurants after eating — when they were under 6-8 years old anyway — but I never took them to any place where one wouldn’t expect to have a lot of little kids.

Whenever I see a little kid throwing a tantrum, it seems to me it’s their parents that are having the meltdown. My general impression is that not everyone is cut out to be a parent.

oneofeach4me

September 21st, 2011
12:03 pm

@aqc ~ and it’s my impression that people have bad days. Sure.. some people aren’t cut out to be parents. But in reality, that is more of the rarity than you think. I have been in the store with my kid when I was sick because I had no other choice. I was getting medicine for myself and my kid was having a meltdown. I corrected the behavior quickly, but my energy and patience level just wasn’t there. If someone was offended… well sorry. That’s life for some people. We do the best we can with what we have. Support systems and villages are a rarity in themselves so there is a lot of pressure on parents today. Cut people some slack.

BlondeHoney

September 21st, 2011
12:03 pm

abc, with all due respect, children should not run around restaurants after eating no matter how child-friendly that restaurant is because it’s DANGEROUS…the child could slip and be injured or even worse, careen into a server carrying hot plates, food etc. Even at Chuckecheese’s running should be confied to the appropriate play area and if they want to run around that badly, leave the restaurant and take them to the park.

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
12:17 pm

Of course traveling by plane isn’t as luxurious as it used to be. It’s cheaper and more common.

First and foremost, I have to remove everything I put on at security, but also I have troupble. I’m crammed into a seat made for humans half my size (and I’m only 6′ and right at 200 lbs.), and inevitably there is someone twice my girth squeezing in next to me. I have to wait in three lines to get on a plane and the planes are often late.

I’m not a patient person. I’d say that flying is unpleasant to me, but that wouldn’t be accurate. I love flying, it’s the process of being on a plane that is stressful.

Maybe things were better in airflight in previous decades when there were less people flying…I don’t know, I didn’t fly back then. I can just speak for me in the now, and it is quite miserable.

As far as child free restarunts go. I can see that working, but I think that airline is going to have to reverse its course. First class costs more for the convenience and peace involved in it….a child free plane charges on the same basis I assume. If the model works for them, so be it, but I have the feeling it won’t. I don’t see enough people paying the extra money just to avoid being on a plane with kids.

oneofeach4me

September 21st, 2011
12:29 pm

@BlondeHoney ~ or abc could go to Joe’s Crab Shack and let them run around on the playground there! My kids enjoy that!!

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
12:44 pm

@shaggy, good luck with the hangover.

Baseball has been more difficult to teach than I thought it would be. I think fundamentals of baseball can be taught at home but only to a certain degree. It’s very hard to teach fielding and throwing. I can certainly teach him how to take the grounder and throw it back to me, but it has been extremely difficult trying to teach where to throw the ball.

I’m either hitting or throwing the ball to him. I can’t also be on 1st or 2nd base.

Then try explaing to a 4-year-old the concept of a force out.”You can touch 2nd base to get the runner out, but only if there is also a runner going to first. If their isn’t anyone going to 1st, you have to tag the runner to be out…..but you can always throw to first to get the force out there.”

Seems like a simple concept to me. I guess it all comes as 2nd nature when you watch a game your whole life, but I’ve really enjoyed trying to teach it. He loves it, and I love having one more thing in common with him.

“If nothing else my father and I could always talk about baseball.” – Eric Haynes

abc

September 21st, 2011
12:49 pm

My kids are all in their 20’s now. They survived being little guys, and I survived them being teenagers. Yall with little kids, oh, what a treat you’re in for! :-)

oneofeach4me

September 21st, 2011
12:51 pm

@abc… I am NOT looking forward to that AT ALL!!!!! (those teenage years) uuugggghhh………

Lady Strange

September 21st, 2011
12:55 pm

@abc – I think most kids have a meltdown at one point or another. If it’s a daily thing then there might be an issue somewhere. Perhaps you just lucked out with your kids. All kids are different, they are people afterall. Am I the best mom ever? Heck no, but I do try to be the best mom I can be.

JJ

September 21st, 2011
12:59 pm

I find the older I get, the less tolerant I am for screaming kids in public places. The grocery store, for example. The other day it must have been “Bring the Screamers to Publix” day. There must have been 5 screaming kids in that store. I couldn’t get out of there fast enough…

CobbParent

September 21st, 2011
12:59 pm

“I have to take my son with me when I go shopping.”

Why, does he pay the grocery bill? Leave him home with his father – both you and the child will be much happier, trust me.

oneofeach4me

September 21st, 2011
1:04 pm

@CobbParent ~ sometimes I leave the kids with dad, but sometimes, like right after the kids have been picked up from school he is not yet home. Plus, I pass the grocery store on the way home.. what’s the point of going all the way home to turn around and come back? I will say though… it’s just for quick stops to grab a few things. For those long trips, with coupons and such, I may take my older one (she is 10) but the 4 yr old boy will be at home. That has more to do with MY happiness, not me worrying if the person next to me in the isle is offended by my little kiddos.

CobbParent

September 21st, 2011
1:06 pm

“It proved to be a miserable meal as neither the wait staff nor the manager of the establishment would address the issue.”

See, I would have spoken to the unruly teens and made them behave. Unless you are in an area where you risk having a gun pulled on you, it is my experience that even the “toughest” teens will back down when confronted by a stern adult. I am all for having some fun, and I was a teen myself at one time, but if the behavior is too much for me to take (and I can take a lot more than most people) I shut it down. If your parents will not teach you about basic manners in public, I will.

My child behaves in public and always has….parents and other adults need to “grow a pair” when it comes to children and teach them how to behave or they will simply grow up to be boorish simple-minded adults.

CobbParent

September 21st, 2011
1:08 pm

@oneofeach4me Good for you. Nothing wrong with a quick jog into the store. However, when it comes to an hour+ shopping trip I think a parent is asking too much of a child. Leave them home…let them play in their own environment. Heck, nobody likes spending all that time at the grocery store, especially not a child who isn’t allowed to touch anything. :)

TXMom

September 21st, 2011
1:11 pm

Parent of four year old twins here… I can honestly see both sides.

The problem I’m seeing lately seems to be that parents are wanting to take their kids to places that they frequented before they had children, but may not be kid-friendly. Like… if your two year old can’t sit still for long periods of time, it’s probably best to not take them to, say, dinner at Prime. Also, I’m sorry, but I really can’t understand why some people insist on bringing their kids with them to a bar. That’s when you call the sitter or drop the kids with grandma.

HOWEVER, if, like TWG said, you’re going for the 2 for $20 special at Applebee’s, come on. That’s not exactly fine dining, and you have to realize that families with kids eat at places like that all the time. Same with the grocery store. Or the mall. Or the park.

I also see a lot more parents who seem unwilling to step in and correct bad behavior on their kids’ part, especially in public places. My girls are well-aware of what “the look” is, and that usually is enough to snap them in line. If not, then we usually go have a stern discussion somewhere out of the way as their second warning, and if the behavior keeps up, we leave, and they know that there will be consequences when we get home. (I’ve even been known to leave a half-full grocery cart parked in the middle of an aisle during a particularly tense situation. Ha!) Thankfully, the “third strike” is a very rare occurence, but it has happened every now and then.

not me....

September 21st, 2011
1:24 pm

@ Lee…. Lower class vs. middle class… that is just hogwash. I live in an upscale area and the kids are off the chain and not at TGI Fridays for 2 for $20. Get that our of your head.

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
2:24 pm

REM thing really has me feeling old and sad.

JOD

September 21st, 2011
2:55 pm

@Lady Strange – How old is your son? I ask because we just took our 3 year-old to her first movie: Winne the Pooh. It was just about an hour, the perfect amount of time. It was also the best experience I’ve had in a theater in a long time (see below for off-topic rant). Everyone was well-behaved, and the only noise was cute comments from the kids while they watched. The movie was great for nostalgic adults, too.

I actually prefer On Demand since theaters are super pricy, and I can live without listening to people talk, watching people text, and don’t get me started about how the fattest person in the theater sits right next to me (or the tallest person in front of me). Even I get nuts during a 3-hour movie with no intermission.

@JJ – You must shop at my Publix! That’s 2nd only to ‘zombie day’, when people park in the middle of the aisles to stare slack-jawed at the shelves. Arrrrgh.

katy

September 21st, 2011
3:28 pm

I so totally agree with everything motherjanegoose had to say. Theory #3, I believe, is correct. I’m in my mid thirties and childless so far. I love kids and look forward to having some one day but I’ve noticed that standards of behavior for kids have dropped even since I was a youngn’, which doesn’t seem too long ago. I’ve seen my fair share of kids treat any adult, including parents, as peers; I’m assuming because they are treated that way in kind at home. I didn’t grow up in a terribly strict or harsh household but mom and dad had rules for how you act in public and how you speak to adults. As a single, childless lady I must respectfully disagree with Theory #4. I enjoy going out and seeing well-behaved, respectful children having a good time with their families. I don’t enjoy seeing brats yelling, running around, and speaking to adults as if they were the sixth-grader next to them on the bus.

And, that Jarvis

September 21st, 2011
3:35 pm

…is why 4 years old is WAY TOO YOUNG to be trying to teach kids baseball “Then try explaing to a 4-year-old the concept of a force out.”You can touch 2nd base to get the runner out, but only if there is also a runner going to first. If their isn’t anyone going to 1st, you have to tag the runner to be out…..but you can always throw to first to get the force out there.”

Have them play soccer until age 6-7 – more exercise for them and less “splaining” to do to them – jet tell them “kick it in the net” and you are good to go…

And, forget about trying to tell me that they have to play in order to “keep up” with their peers in order to make the “travel” team – research has shown that if they can play, at any age, they can play with the better players at any age…

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
3:35 pm

Thank you katy…it is nice to have someone on my team…haha! Being redundant here but those who cannot control their preschool and elementary children are in for a WILD RIDE from 12 to 20.
I am done with that and made it through as mine knew what was expected. Have fun!

Air travel, yes it is stressful but those who show up with bed hair and pajama pants were NEVER seen in the 1960’s through the 1990’s. You actually wore and outfit on the plane and some even wore a suit in coach class. Now, the relaxed attitude and ticket prices have made it seem like a trip to Wal Mart.

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
3:43 pm

@person not fully understanding the comments box, Maybe your kid is too stupid to know what he liked at 4 and what he didn’t, but mine isn’t.

He likes baseball and has no interest in soccer.

abc

September 21st, 2011
4:00 pm

Here’s the drill at the 5 year olds’ tee ball game.

A couple coaches and a few parents are on the field to pick up the little kids and stand them up in their proper positions.

After 5 swings, the batter makes contact, and runs straight over the pitcher’s mound to second base.

The entire field converges on the ball. Fighting ensues over who gets it. The winner of that contest brings the ball to the nearest coach, beaming. A couple of the kids start crying because they didn’t get the ball.

The coaches and parents lift up the kids and carry them back to their positions. Batter up!

It’s really not teaching them how to play ball.

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
4:03 pm

Again @person not fully understanding the comments box, where did you come up with that peers crap?

You think I’m concerned about my 4-year-old falling behind his baseball peers? Again you are making incorrect assumptions about the stupidity of my gene pool.

oneofeach4me

September 21st, 2011
4:13 pm

@Katy ~ of course you whole heartedly agree with number 3 and so totally disagree with number 4 because that is YOUR reality. I don’t like screaming disrespectful kids either, I don’t think many parents do nor do they intend for theirs to be that way. I think what most of us parents are saying is that s**t happens sometimes, as many parents already noted. Kids have their good days and bad ones. I mean, as an adult, are you bubbly and nice and sweet every single day? If so, please tell me what you have been prescribed, other than the privilege to not have to worry about kids or a babysitter when going out to eat! ;-)

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
4:14 pm

@abc, you clearly aren’t from East Cobb. Straight T-Ball ends at 3. My son takes pitches from a pitching machine at 35 mph. After 4 pitches they bring out a tee if needed.

He’s in his second season, and while he doesn’t understand all of the rules quite yet, he knows to stay in position, field the ball if he is closest to it, and then to throw it to a base….usually first.

4th game is this week. Some of the newer boys are still struggling with staying in position, but we are already seeing improvment there. So far only one crier and that was due to the afore-mentioned clustering of players. He undercut a larger boy who subsequently fell on the undercuttee’s head.

Why judge kids having fun?

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
4:21 pm

@ one…MY reality is lots of kids from coast to coast. All kids have melt downs, as do adults. Not everyone is sunny and pleasant all the time! It is the way children are handled that makes it bearable or ridiculous. I have seen all sorts of kids and parents. I commend those who realize that coddling and bribing only gets harder to do when they are in high school and college. I have been a mom for 24 years and an educator for 29. I have seen a lot more than many who are only involved with their own children, neighbor’s kids, neighbor’s kids, and perhaps sports or church. Maybe know 100 children by name and personality. At this stage in my life, I am pretty quick at picking out the parents who have a clue about what they are doing. Again, the little toots will turn into bigger toots as long as the parents continue on the same train track!

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
4:21 pm

comment gone…

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
4:24 pm

@MJG, You sound as if you are sad that air travel isn’t “special” anymore.

It couldn’t stay elite forever. Nothing can. It had to eventually just become the fastest way to get somewhere. After deregulation, the JetBlues and SouthWests of the world were bound to tap into a different customer base.

Look at the Concords…they couldn’t make them profitable.

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
4:51 pm

TWG…this is NOT the comments that is gone….

@ jarvis…I am not sad at all. I have been in and out of airplanes for years. Last week, a pilot told me this:
“Air Travel is one of the few venues where you do not have to pay more to get there quicker. Fed Ex, UPS and the Post Office charge more to get things delivered in a speedy manner. You can often fly coast to coast cheaper than you can drive. The start up airlines get special wavers to go into markets and compete. Small areas want airlines and the big guys cannot afford to do business in the small areas. They are not afforded the same fees as the big guys. They advertise $49 one way fares. Eventually they may into bankruptcy and the cycle continues. ” I am not a pilot nor an economist but I was interested in his take. When you can get airfare for the same price as it cost to take the bus….guess what…ALL sorts of people fly. I am not a snob and I like all sorts of people but those who shop for clothes at Wal Mart are typically not behaving the same way as those who shop at Lord and Taylor’s. I have never purchased one thing at Lord and Taylor’s but I have worn clothes from Wal Mart. Not much lately. I shop at Ross, TJ Maxx and Marshalls …also Christopher and Banks! I do see a BIG difference in the manners of the guests at the Hilton and the Comfort Inn. I have stayed often at both hotels!

jarvis

September 21st, 2011
4:53 pm

@MJG, I wasn’t picking.
Thank you for explaining your point of view.

Actually, Jarvis...

September 21st, 2011
5:09 pm

…as a parent it appears that YOU are too stupid to understand that you, and the other East Cobb parents who start their kids at T-ball at age 3, and then continue to keep their kids involved at such a young age, are only living vicariously through their kids in order compensate for their inability to excel past the high school age –

And my original comments about “falling behind his peers” was directly aimed at the East Cobb baseball parents since they are so consumed with making their kids the next Mark Piscotta…

Finally, how does your kid know whether he likes any sport other than baseball since baseball seems to be the only sport to which he has been exposedby his “parents”…

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2011
5:39 pm

@jarvis…it is all good. There are LOTS of things I know zip about…this list is just a taste:

sports, electronics, riding horses, gambling, building houses, fraternities and sororities, foreign countries, insurance and the like.

My experience does tend to go towards children ages 2-7, dogs, teaching and also most things about travel; hotels. airfare, rental cars and the like.

I also have a bit of experience with college aged kids, not a lot. I have my own two and many in our family and neighborhood plus friends. When mine are both finished with college, I presume I will know a lot more than I do now! I learn something new every day! Some things I wish I did not know.

shaggy

September 21st, 2011
6:09 pm

jarvis,

My head is finally clear enough to actually read and write. Keep up the good work with your kid and baseball. He obviously likes the sport, and already knows that socccer is as fun as watching paint dry. Smart kid.

Uh, Shaggy...

September 21st, 2011
6:22 pm

…I hardly think the point of the original post was “baseball vs soccer” and which was more fun – but since you invoked this piece to the question, how is baseball more fun to watch than soccer – neither has much action, unlike football and basketball…

Beancounter

September 21st, 2011
8:30 pm

I had two kids 11 years apart. The oldest one, I could take into any restaurant, any time and she would behave like an adult. The younger one just didn’t have the patience to sit still in a restaurant, so we made sure he stayed with grandparents, or friends if we went out. It was a phase he went through, but it made my life so much simpler to go without him. He was generally well-behaved, but got really antsy when the food took a long time or when he got through eating first.

I see the problem as parents who feel guilty about working 60 hour weeks and think that spending “quality time” with their kids is taking them to inappropriate locations. The kids don’t enjoy it, the parents seem totally unaware of the misbehaviour and everyone in the place .

I think restaurants have a total right to ban kids. It’s just too bad that it has become necessary.

jarvis

September 22nd, 2011
9:12 am

Guilty as charged. I’m living vicariously through my pre-K son.

And you are so right about no other sport exposure. Three years of watching older sister play soccer, his playing tennis last fall at age 3, and him going to several football and baseball games every season since he was about 1 have given him no basis for which sport he finds most interesting.

I think I must have inadvertently pushed him into liking Star Wars and Go Diego Go as well because he also seems to like those toys and shows better than most others.

Thank you for your insight. I realize now that I have failed my son. At least I still have my daughter (or did I ruin her by pushing her into gymnsatics? perplexing).

mom to four

September 22nd, 2011
1:09 pm

It is #3, without doubt. I have 4 children between the ages of 25 and 11. We have always taken our children to fine dining, theater, on airplanes,etc., even when they were very young. Our children almost always receive compliments on their behaviour. When they were little and got a little loud or misbehaved all we had to do was ask “do you want to go outside or to the ladies room?” Outside meant that Dad would give the talk, and on one occassion sat with the unruly and crying child while the rest of us finished dinner. The ladies room meant that Mom would give the talk and, if necessary, a swat on the bottom. It only took one time with each child to get the message across. That is why I can take my children anywhere and know they will behave beautifully.

tracey

September 22nd, 2011
2:39 pm

we always took our kids to restaurants, granted we went to family restaurants when they were little. they have to learn how to act in public. if they acted up, it was dealt with, promptly. i certainly would not take a toddler to seasons 52, or what have you. my kids knew better than to act up in public. people need to stop trying to be their kid’s friends and be their parents.

serene

September 23rd, 2011
12:47 am

I am generation x, not a baby boomer, and see the problem of children in public as stemming from overly permissive childrearing practices. Parents start out by tearing into our feet or forcing us out of their way with unnecessarily huge strollers, then as their children outgrow the strollers, they behave obnoxiously and destructively, smearing their feet on furniture, making noise, running around public places. It has grown steadily worse over the past quarter century.

itpdude

September 23rd, 2011
3:11 am

This is nothing new. People have always disliked having loud and obnoxious kids around them be it at a theater or restaurant.

There are simply more bratty kids running around. The parents are eyes deep in their phones and ignoring their kids and letting them make a scene.

There are some exceptional parents out there, however. But they are being outnumbered by the barbarians. And the barbarians are taking over.

Alex

September 23rd, 2011
10:10 pm

Personally, if this is the case, then they need to make some restaurants that are more kid friendly or a seating area separate from the rest of the restaurant. Because it’s becoming increasing more annoying to put up with both generations,Boomer and Y. Because,sorry kids are going to be kids and need to be taught the right behavior and not turn away because someone is feeling tad crotchety. However, I feel older people need some time and place to themselves.

mom

September 24th, 2011
1:47 am

I have two little boys 3 & 4 years old. My husband is deployed and my boys go everywhere I go. My kids are polite. Please, thank you, and excuse me are used on a daily bases. We occasionally go out to eat and I think this is good for them. I’ve actually made a point of doing this because they are little and I want them to get accustom to it. I’ve had my children make scenes in public and wish I could say that I’ve always handled it right, but I haven’t. I do learn from every experience though and reflect on how to handle it better the next time (at some point or another there will be a next time). Nick Jr has this quote, “We’re not perfect, we’re parents”. Its true. My kids are fantastic and for the most part are great in public. That being said, they’ve had there moments. I’m sure your mom could easily come up with a story of you giving her a run for her money at some point. We were all kids once. Kids, believe it or not, are little people. We were all kids and we were not always well behaved, though apparently some of you remember it differently. I have seen kids act up and it doesn’t bother me. That could be me and it has been me. I do not think children should be banned, its discrimination. I can understand people requesting to sit away from children and this is an option. I like to go out to eat with my kids. Its a treat for us and we don’t eat out as often with my husband deployed. Everyone needs to relax, they’re kids, and we were kids. Like I said, though you remember being little angels, I’m postive your mother could easily throw out examples of times that you weren’t. I’m sure the list goes on and on and on. lol

motherjanegoose

September 25th, 2011
8:38 pm

Haha…I was NOT an angel nor were my own kids. The difference ( to me) is that the impish behavior was not ignored or laughed at when I was a child and when my children were young. It was dealt with quite swiftly and there were no idle threats. I sit on the floor with thousands of children each year and DO NOT FOR ONE MINUTE think children have the attention span and innate behavior ability of mature adults. It is learned by interacting with adults who model the appropriate behavior and give guidelines and cues. Not all adults even understand this concept.

jan

September 25th, 2011
9:15 pm

I don’t mind a toddler having a meltdown in a family friendly restaurant, so long as the parent tries to do SOMETHING to bring it under control. But that’s the problem… Very few parents even TRY to bring it under control. And it is even worse with older kids. When I have asked parents to bring their kids under control, I have been told, “He’s/she’s a child. What am I supposed to do?” Try what I did, take the kid for a short walk to explain appropriate behavior, explain the consequences for the lack of appropriate behavior, then FOLLOW THROUGH. I have left more than one business establishment because my kids weren’t behaving appropriately. And boy, did they regret it in the parking lot…