Jared Loughner: What should colleges do with troubled kids? How much can parents and colleges work together?

I have spent much of the last week wondering if  Jared Loughner’s parents and the officials at Pima Community College could have done more – or if anything at all — to prevent the tragic killings in Tucson. I have been waiting for more information to come out about Loughner’s parents and the university before we talked about it. Finally, I am finding several good stories that give some insight into how much each party knew, how things were dealt with, how colleges in general deal with troubled students and how parents may miss all the warning signs.

First I wanted to share with you a bunch of great links to stories and some of the more relevant passages and then we can discuss. If you have the time (I know everyone is playing catch up from the snow) read the full articles. They are worthwhile and may give more insight than my quick paragraph pulls.

First some basic news on the story:

Update as of Tuesday: Rep. Giffords husband said he would be willing to meet with Loughner’s parents and doesn’t blame them.

“I don’t think it’s their fault. It’s not the parents’ fault,” Kelly told ABC. “You know, I’d like to think I’m a person that’s, you know, somewhat forgiving. And, I mean, they’ve got to be hurting in this situation as much as anybody.”

An early news story from when his parents first found out

“Sources told the Journal that Randy and Amy Loughner expressed a degree of shock in their discussion with the FBI, saying they were unaware of the degree of their son’s apparent mental problems.”


Now the big articles we really need to discuss:

This article from The Associated Press gets right to the issue at hand: How much should schools be telling parents about their kids if there is a problem? How much can they legally tell them (FERPA – remember that??) and when is it really a problem? I am pulling much of this story because it is really interesting.

From The Associated Press:

…With limited resources, complicated laws, more students in need of mental health help and echoes of the Virginia Tech massacre all part of the mix, schools face the conundrum of trying to create a safe environment without overreacting.

“What you’re really doing is deciding, ‘Where do I want to make the mistakes? Do I want to be over-broad in protecting civil liberties or over-broad in protecting safety?’” said Steven McDonald, general counsel for the Rhode Island School of Design and an expert on student privacy laws and campus safety. “And you’re never going to get it exactly right.”

McDonald said the pendulum has swung toward safety in recent years, but could swing back if schools overreach.

Many colleges and universities have started or strengthened threat assessment teams of administrators, counseling directors, campus police chiefs and others who meet regularly to field concerns about disturbing behavior and to investigate them.

But the issues are not always clear-cut. What should be protected as free speech? When does behavior cross the line from odd to potentially dangerous? When is suspension or expulsion warranted, or forced mental health treatment?

“There is a lot more awareness of the need to take action, but we are still constrained by considerations of civil liberties and the like,” said Ada Meloy, general counsel for the American Council on Education, an umbrella group for higher education.

“It’s not illegal to be a college student with mental health issues,” she said. “There are plenty of them out there. It’s very difficult to determine which ones merit being isolated from the college community.”

Studies show more students are arriving on campus with mental health issues. A recent American College Counseling Association survey found 44 percent of students who visit college counseling centers have severe psychological disorders, up from 16 percent a decade ago. One in four students is on psychiatric medication, compared to 17 percent in 2000.

Officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner was a student, released 51 pages of police documents depicting him at times as “creepy,” ”very hostile” and “having difficulty understanding what he had done wrong in the classroom.”

After five incidents that drew the attention of campus police — a rambling YouTube video that called the school a scam and associated it with genocide was the final straw — school officials told Loughner and his parents that to return to classes he would need to undergo a mental health exam to show he was not a danger. He never returned.

Some critics have said the school should have gone a step further and sought to force Loughner into counseling, which Arizona state law allows. But school officials have said their response was appropriate given the circumstances.

For years, many colleges said the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, or FERPA, handcuffed their ability to share information about troubled students with those who could help — including parents.

But McDonald, the privacy law expert, said FERPA is much less constraining than is often portrayed. A health and safety exemption allows for, say, faculty to share records with the dean of students, threat assessment teams or campus police relatively easily, he said. In 2008, Congress amended the law in responses to the Virginia Tech tragedy, making it clear schools would not be punished if they have a rational basis for taking action.

The Americans With Disabilities Act prohibits discrimination against persons on the basis of their disability, including mental health problems. But exemptions covering harm to self and public safety exist there, too.

“The law in these areas can be kind of complicated, and many campuses don’t have legal counsel or heavy-duty mental health expertise,” McDonald said. “So we’re being asked to do something that is really pretty hard.”

This is some really good insight into what a parent with a child who may have a mental issue is dealing with. The author does a good job exploring how may think it’s drugs – but their child is self-medicating their condition. Or with the parents they may actually seem normal and OK.  It is written by Pete Earley is the author of Crazy: A Father’s Search Through America’s Mental Health Madness.

From USA Today:

“But news reports said college officials warned the Loughners their son couldn’t return to school until he had had a mental health evaluation. He was scaring other students. Obviously, that’s a huge red flag — if it happened. Federal privacy laws limit how much information colleges can share with parents. Adult children are exactly that: adults. The first time my son and I visited a psychologist, my son turned his chair so that his back was facing the therapist and refused to speak. He didn’t think he was sick…”

“Remember, having a mental illness is not illegal. Nor can anyone, even a parent, force another person into treatment arbitrarily. All states require a person be dangerous to himself or others. What makes Arizona’s law more liberal is it also allows a person to be forced into treatment if he is “persistently or acutely disabled” or “gravely disabled.” Would Loughner have met those criteria? I doubt it, based on my experience and given that a police officer stopped him the morning of the shooting and let him go without noticing anything alarming about his behavior. Saying you are concerned about shrines with skulls in the backyard or strange writings is simply not enough in most courts.”

“A 2009 study by the National Alliance on Mental Illness found that Arizona’s mental health services were grossly inadequate. The report was riddled with complaints such as, “When I first tried to get help after attempting suicide, I was told that I wasn’t sick enough to qualify,” and, “There is a six to eight week wait to see (a psychiatrist) as a new patient.” Most states are plagued by long waiting lines because legislators have closed state hospitals and stripped treatment funds to balance budgets.”

“Perhaps the most hurtful comment leveled at parents is that they should have done a better job raising their child. Would you attack a parent’s child-rearing skills if his son or daughter had cancer? Mental illnesses are just that: illnesses.”

“Blaming parents is easy, but before you throw that first stone, try walking in our shoes.”

I have been thinking about the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA), the federal law that protects the privacy of students’ education records, all last week,  and I wondered if the college had been allowed to share anything to his parents about what went on at school. And according to that article in USA Today, it was allowed and according to the online FERPA definition it definitely was allowed. I bolded the pertinent parts! (I guess like the AP story says the universities are afraid of getting sued if they reveal too much or it wasn’t really a problem.)

About FERPA:

Recently many questions have arisen concerning the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA), the federal law that protects the privacy of students’ education records. The Department wishes to clarify what FERPA says about postsecondary institutions sharing information with parents.

What are parents’ and students’ rights under FERPA?

At the K-12 school level, FERPA provides parents with the right to inspect and review their children’s education records, the right to seek to amend information in the records they believe to be inaccurate, misleading, or an invasion of privacy, and the right to consent to the disclosure of personally identifiable information from their children’s education records. When a student turns 18 years old or enters a postsecondary institution at any age, these rights under FERPA transfer from the student’s parents to the student. Under FERPA, a student to whom the rights have transferred is known as an “eligible student.” Although the law does say that the parents’ rights afforded by FERPA transfer to the “eligible student,” FERPA clearly provides ways in which an institution can share education records on the student with his or her parents.

While concerns have been expressed about the limitations on the release of information, there are exceptions to FERPA’s general rule that educational agencies and institutions subject to FERPA may not have a policy or practice of disclosing “education records” without the written consent of the parent (at the K-12 level) or the “eligible student.”

When may a school disclose information to parents of dependent students?

Under FERPA, schools may release any and all information to parents, without the consent of the eligible student, if the student is a dependent for tax purposes under the IRS rules.

Can a school disclose information to parents in a health or safety emergency?

The Department interprets FERPA to permit schools to disclose information from education records to parents if a health or safety emergency involves their son or daughter.

Can parents be informed about students’ violation of alcohol and controlled substance rules?

Another provision in FERPA permits a college or university to let parents of students under the age of 21 know when the student has violated any law or policy concerning the use or possession of alcohol or a controlled substance.

Can a school disclose law enforcement unit records to parents and the public?

Additionally, under FERPA, schools may disclose information from “law enforcement unit records” to anyone – including parents or federal, State, or local law enforcement authorities – without the consent of the eligible student. Many colleges and universities have their own campus security units. Records created and maintained by these units for law enforcement purposes are exempt from the privacy restrictions of FERPA and can be shared with anyone.

Can school officials share their observations of students with parents?

Nothing in FERPA prohibits a school official from sharing with parents information that is based on that official’s personal knowledge or observation and that is not based on information contained in an education record. Therefore, FERPA would not prohibit a teacher or other school official from letting a parent know of their concern about their son or daughter that is based on their personal knowledge or observation.

So lots and lots to discuss here:

How much should schools be telling parents?

When should they step in?

Should the school have made him be evaluated not just put the onus on the parents?

Could the parents have done more? (I don’t think we know all the facts here yet.)

Do you agree with the USA Today article that parents could easily miss these signs or be tricked into thinking all is well?

How will these stories and these events affect your parenting now or later?

217 comments Add your comment

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Paige

January 19th, 2011
4:18 am

My son is currently in the 10th grade and takes mental health meds and goes to counseling. When he turns 18 (still in high school , hopefully) I hope that he continues to both, BUT he will be an adult and has to make those decisions on his own.

College should be a place of higher learning, not a government day care for older teenagers. This shows again that college is not for every one.

deidre_NC

January 19th, 2011
8:29 am

Active Duty Mom

January 19th, 2011
8:42 am

Amen, Paige as well. By the time a child is 18, they are legally considered an adult and are on their own to make decisions about their medical care. It takes hands-on parenting early on and seeking treatment when a child first starts to show signs of mental illness. It also takes swallowing your pride as a parent and helping your child to seek mental health care when a doctor or a teacher (or more likely, several) indicates that your child is exhibiting inappropriate behaviors and needs treatment. Been there, done that, and yes it is difficult and sometimes seems impossible, but it’s better than the alternative.

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

January 19th, 2011
9:55 am

did I write too much?? offer too many sources??? why no discussion on this?? I am shocked. are people still just trying to dig out at work??? I thought the AP story and the Ferpa stuff was so interesting and The USA Today story really affected my perception on this — hmmmm…. thought this was good stuff

Jeff

January 19th, 2011
10:00 am

The guy is a quack. 30 years ago he would have been in a mental institution. But we’ve done away with those and gone the meds route. I don’t think we need to change our entire society for the .05% of quacks that we’ve let on the street. Sorry.

Techmom

January 19th, 2011
10:04 am

It’s not the schools’ responsibility to tell parents anything; we’ve had this discussion before and my opinion still stands that once you are in college and over the age of 18, you’re an adult. Even if you’re parents are footing the bill. They could just as easily stop paying the bills and it would the student’s responsibility. I think this is a sad situation but evidently even telling the parents and forcing this kid out of the school didn’t solve the problem.

Should the school have made him be evaluated not just put the onus on the parents? What do you mean? Force the kid to sit down with a shrink? It says the school told him he had to be evaluated before he could return. What else could the school do?

Could the parents have done more? Probably but again, we don’t know the parents. Had the kid been mentally evaluated previously or did they just think his bizarre antics were ‘normal’ b/c that’s all they knew. Do these people have other children? Certain if they do, they would have realized he had issues.

Techmom

January 19th, 2011
10:07 am

It was pretty long TWG :) Did you see my note on yesterday’s blog (Crazy Chinese Mom) about the movie “Race to Nowhere”?

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DB

January 19th, 2011
10:32 am

@TWG: For me, with two kids in college, I suppose none of this is a surprise. Both schools where my children go have FERPA releases that the kids can sign that allow the school to release information to the parents,but trying to actually use it is a PITA. My son, in a moment of a misplaced sense of adulthood, at first objected to signing it. I told him that when he was fully financially responsible for his education, then he was welcome to keep it private, but until then, I had a vested interest in the process. Whenever I call the bursar’s office at either university, I have to go through a run-around, even with a FERPA.

Even things like the dermatologist that my daughter has gone to since she was 9 — when she turned 18, suddenly the door slammed shut and even though I was the one paying the bills and they had known me for a decade. I had to jump through a dozen hoops in order to get records transferred to her university health services. Bills suddenly are addressed to them, not to me — and another doctor’s case, the bills ended up being sent to an old address and suddenly, we get a collection notice for a part that wasn’t paid by insurance that they had been sending the bills to an old dorm address!! I called them to fuss at them, and asked them why on earth they wouldn’t send it to his home address as they had for the four years prior, and I got the lecture on “privacy.” I gave them the lecture back on “do you want to get paid, or do you want to be right?” and had a few choice words to say about what would happen if my son’s credit was damaged (it wasn’t.) Even more frustrating was that I HAD signed an agreement that I was responsible for payment. GRR.

I think that, in most cases like this, hindsight is 20/20. When you look back, you see all the clues as clear as day, but when you are just living from day to day, you don’t see the big picture, because the little everyday things distract you. It’s an interesting exercise, to say, “Oh, we should have . . . “, but it’s a useless one. What happened, happened. There are many, many people running around who aren’t playing with a full deck, and as Arizona points out, that’s not illegal. And, plus, with the prevalence of drug and alcohol use, you can’t predict where the breaking point is. We know it’s irresponsible to smoke pot or drink alcohol if you are already taking psychiatric drugs. But let’s face it, people don’t always act responsibly — especially if they are depending on psychiatric drugs to keep their thinking straight.

And, as a parent, truthfully — at the age of the shooter, there aren’t too many parents who have that kind of control over a man’s actions. Jared Loughner is exactly my son’s age, to within a few weeks. My son is away from home for weeks at a time — I don’t KNOW what he’s doing from day to day, from week to week. We talk, we email, we text — but again, I only know what he tells me, and what I can read between the lines. Kids come home for a weekend, and it’s easy enough to slip into ‘child’ mode for a couple of days — they are adept at switching from “child” to “adult” when the need is there. In fact, it’s fascinating to watch — last summer, when he would receive a phone call from an “adult”, suddenly it would be sitting straighter, he’d be talking in complete sentences :-), and he’d actually sound like a grown up. Five minutes later, he and his sister would be squabbling over the TV remote.

I certainly don’t “blame” the parents. I don’t “blame” the school. I blame Jared. Playing the “blame” game is something that people do in order to makes themselves feel better, to try to regain control over that which is, ultimately, uncontrollable — another human being’s actions.

Techmom

January 19th, 2011
10:35 am

This is off topic but just wanted to post that our county decided to cancel the mid-winter break in February to make up for the snow days last week.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 19th, 2011
10:42 am

what more should PCC have done? They recognized there was a problem, told him if he wanted to come back that he had to undergo a mental evaluation, and he chose not to come back. I think they acted completely appropriately.

Oh…and TWG…yes…too much info was presented to process.

DB

January 19th, 2011
10:46 am

@TWG — I think there’s a fine line between putting a link to stuff like the FERPA rules and putting them in the blog directly. I don’t think there was too much, because if you had put the links in, I’d have probably clicked on them and read them, anyway. This way, they were all in one place :-) But then again, I read pretty darn fast. Slower readers may have been a little overwhelmed.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 19th, 2011
10:53 am

I’m a fairly quick reader…but at some point, it kind of read like stereo instructions and quickly morphed into the literary equivalent of charlie brown’s parents…..”wwwwaaa wa wwaaaa wwwaaaaaa”

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 19th, 2011
10:54 am

“at some point” was probably around the 29th paragraph.

Mommy Dearest

January 19th, 2011
10:54 am

You cannot BLAME anyone – however – we could prevent alot of the problems with kids today.

Let’s start with the school systems- in order not to offend anyone – everything is allowed and tolerated. The schools are so busy covering up all the corruption lately the kids are learning nothing. Need a NO NONSENSE approach starting with the way these kids dress. You will not get a job looking like a thug or a whore so the kids better learn how to look like young men and women now.

Parents – shut the TVs/video games/cell phones off! Kids are so electronically inclined they cannot even write! We have dumbed down our children in the name of technology. STOP MAKING VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES – STOP PURCHASING THEM FOR YOUR CHILDREN!!! They see so much violence they are numb to it!!! Stop glorifying this kind of behavior in the music – it is programming the youth to want to be like that.

We have medicated our kids since elementary school calling it ADD and ADHD as not to disrupt the rest of the class. We have nutrionally destroyed a generation with junk food and preservatives. We have not disciplined our kids in fear of DFCS.

Could the parents have seen this coming? Maybe, maybe not. We all have free will and you can do the best you can and just pray pray pray your child will “get it” one day.

We are guilty as a nation for the behavior of these kids. WAKE UP AMERICA!! Stop buying into this!

JATL

January 19th, 2011
11:09 am

Way too busy and too long for me to read -and quite honestly I don’t care about him or any of his conditions. It hasn’t even occurred to me to blame his parents or his school or anyone but HIM for his actions. He’s over 18 and therefore his mental health is his business. As a parent, you can certainly help, talk to your kids and try to get them help if you think it’s warranted after they’re adults, but colleges shouldn’t start calling home because Johnny and Isabella are acting strangely or in need of meds. Jared is an adult and he acted as an adult and he will be tried as an adult. He will either be declared legally insane and incarcerated in an adult psychiatric facility or he will be declared competent to stand trial and be incarcerated in an adult prison. Either way -he’s an adult and no one should have expected his college or his mommy and daddy to stop this or run to his rescue.

mom of 3

January 19th, 2011
11:24 am

@JATL – ditto

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

January 19th, 2011
11:50 am

Bummer guys – i was so happy to find good material on this topic and wanted to share. I had been waiting for stories on this. so was very happy to finally see it all being addressed. I get excited about news and was excited to share all the good info I found!! OK I will keep in mind for next time.

New folks to our blog please feel free to tell us your thoughts. Don’t be discouraged. I really do want us to have a good discussion about the school and parents’ responsibilities and working together.

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

January 19th, 2011
11:50 am

tiger — i broke it into sections!! I tried!!

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

January 19th, 2011
11:54 am

Tiger – I cut two other articles at the last minute — soooo be happy — maybe I should have left out the usa today one but i think it is really good too — good insight into why the parent’s may not have been aware — also good to think about it as a medical problem

Jane

January 19th, 2011
11:56 am

When your kid gets kicked out of school and rejected by the Army for Drug use, it is a sign. Do no tell me the parents did not know. They are far more guilty of letting this happen than Sarah Palin or any other talking head conservative ever was.

Ted Striker

January 19th, 2011
11:57 am

Glad, but not surprised, that Mr. Kelly is not “blaming” Loughner’s parents. You can be the best — or the worst — parent in the world and have no idea what your adult (or even minor) child is planning.

If Jared Loughner is mentally ill — and he may well be — then it behooves us to revisit the mental health care system. Not sure this is a parenting issue, although it’s discussed in a parenting type blog. Mental health is a societal issue, not just a parental issue.

Thank you for your effort and research and care/concern in the entire matter.

catlady

January 19th, 2011
12:02 pm

When I was in grad school a fellow transfered into the program. He had been kicked out of several departments in the university and was sent to us. Very intense, very big, no smiles. Carried a case like a gun would be in. Wanted to talk about narcolepsy in a education governance class. Not sure what happened to him. Think he was urged to move on again…

Let’s face it. There are many folks operating at some capacity out there with serious MH problems, addressed or unaddressed.

redhousecat

January 19th, 2011
12:02 pm

Despite the entitlement that society demands today, it is not the responsibility of any school to evaluate the mental capacity of students, day in and day out. Being this guy is an adult, nothing much could have been done unless friends and family saw something in him that could have been reported.

When children display violent and threatening behavior, then it is a parent’s responsibility to tend to the child, not a school.

OT, I long to see the day that schools get back to educating our public instead of babysitting them.

pj

January 19th, 2011
12:07 pm

Jeff has a point. The problem is that there is not funding for adults with mental problems; many live on the street, many circulate (at high taxpayer cost) through our judicial system and jails, and many commit crimes. It is tough enough to deal with a child/teenager with emotional/mental health issues re school, medical treatment, insurance, drugs, risky behavior, crime. (I know from experience). and I can assure you, redhousecat, it is the parent’s responsibility, but there are not always answers/solutions.

Jean

January 19th, 2011
12:09 pm

Apparently this young man had some problems; however, if this had been a kid with another background (say from Atlanta southwest side), he would have been labelled a cold-blooded killer “criminal.” why are we spending so much time and focus on this evil kid and focus more on the victims; its no wonder some can get away with killing people in cold blood because the media and this society spends so much time trying to analyze a plain criminal who was out to get someone and didn’t care who he would take in the process. the media has already set up the “insanity case” much more or less for the defense attorney trying to figure out what mental disorder may apply; well, in my opinion, the mental disorder is a cold blooded killer who knew what he was doing; stop making excuses for him now; with all the problems tracking back to the beginning, someone had to know that the kid had a problem and it wasnt mental, it was hatred;
as for the subject matter of mental disorders, laws should allow parents to serve as legal guardians once the courts have determined that a person is mentally ill or incapacitated (unable to function on their own); that would resolve the over 18 legality (just my opinion) and then if the parents don’t have the power to do so, then we are all in trouble; they were probably scared to death;
last but not least, if someone can answer this question: if the father took the time to chase his son down the street because he had this so called “black bag” why didn’t he call the police; what prompted this chase?? was the black bag only used for certain things? it makes you go hummm?

fundad

January 19th, 2011
12:11 pm

DB you are totaly right about this situation. It was Jared’s fault. Our litigious society is so intent on blaming and preventing because people seem to want to protect society from all risks & dangers & the fact of the matter is you cant. As DB said, “this was Jared’s fault”. It was not the fault of the gun laws, the school, the parents, the ammo or gun manufacturors, the people he shot. It was totaly Jared’s fault and whether sane or not he should be put down like a dog for doing this. Nuff said.

pj

January 19th, 2011
12:12 pm

re your questions list, I was told by a friend that if the school refers kids for evals/treatment, the county has to pick up the tab. not likely in today’s budget cuts. we might have started treatment for our child YEARS earlier if someone had clued us in. It was much tougher in the teen years, when peer pressure and the desire to be accepted is so great.

Always a Parent

January 19th, 2011
12:26 pm

As a mother of a 27 yr old son, who was diagnosed at the age of 17 with bipolar disorder….

First of all, parents never stop parenting. Period. My daughter is 26, an elementary school teacher, married with an infant, and she comes to me all the time for help/suggestions/input. It doesn’t matter that she’s not affected with a mental illness, parenting is parenting, no matter what. You only stop being a parent at the moment you stop breathing and your heart stops beating.

Secondly, as a teacher for NAMI’s Family to Family class, we have learned that when an individual has their first mental “break”, this is the age they stop maturing. And believe me, my 27 yr old STILL acts like a 17 yr old at times. That’s why you see the “immaturity” shining through some of Jared’s ramblings and videos. He obviously had his break back in high school like some of his friends have referenced his behavior before dropping out of school.

Obviously he has needed help for a long time, and as a parent, and seeing other parents who get hit with something that just wasn’t in the handbook that the doctor handed us at the hospital on “how to raise a child”, it’s obvious to see the denial.

I wonder when someone is going to insert the section about recognizing mental illness in their child in that handbook that the doctor’s give you at the hospital when you deliver a baby. Then I guess we can all be perfect parents.

jmb

January 19th, 2011
12:26 pm

You can read a lot of insight on drphil.com today from friends & survivors. Although there is NO understanding why this happened, Dr. Phil addresses the subject very well.

Lynn

January 19th, 2011
12:34 pm

In my involvement with local student health centers at college campuses, I can assure you that many would be surprised at the number of mentally ill students on campus every day. In many situations, counselors tell us that these are students with serious and long known illnesses who have their care shifted from the parents to the college.

It is not a burden that colleges should be expected to absorb. In many situations, the parents are very tired, understandably so, with dealing with the issues associated with these illnesses. But, to thrust these students into the college environment with no warning to the school is grossly negligent. Many college students have issues with the freedom and responsibilities of college. Those who are already suffering from a mental illness present a much greater risk to themselves and the community at large.

Outraged

January 19th, 2011
12:37 pm

Could someone explain why in this violent country that has a murder rate compared to third world countries(for example,Germany has a murder rate FIVE!!!,I repeat FIVE times lower than here),there is no requirement to have a psychiatric evaluation before you can purchase a weapon. Isn’t it a basic preventive measure? Also,I can’t comprehend when people suggest that the way to stop crime is to arm everyone. Why nobody asks this fundamental question:Why Americans are so violent?

FCM

January 19th, 2011
12:37 pm

QBE (1990s), Clinton’s Education Reform (1998-2000), NCLB (2001)…coupled with ADA laws. These ALL said everyone regardless of their issues should be treated THE SAME.

However we are not all the same. Some are tall, some are short, some are thin some are fat (this one has a yellow hat). YES Dr. Seuss…he got it! He CELEBRATED it. We are not all the same…I will never be an opera star or a celebrated pianist. It is likely not everyone here will be a Rocket Scientist or Brain Surgeon.

Now in the 1990s another phenom came to be social acceptable. “It is not my fault”. We decided that being a victim EXCUSED you from behaving in line with social standards. (Read “A Nation of Victims” it is eye opening!).

NOW we are reaping what we sowed. No personal accountablity…heck even TWG is quick to say the COLLEGE/UNIVERSITY and PARENTS should have done something. So quick don’t blame Jared Loughner! Sure he pulled the trigger but it was because someone should have done more.

How about we go back to holding students accountable (oh wait Mrs. Chau said that and got death threats!) back at earlier ages where the learning takes place. (MJG & Catlady I know I am not a teacher but isn’t that why pre-school and elementary school is so important…those young minds are eager to learn?).

I have said it before stop saying you are raising children and start realizing you HAVE children you are RAISING adults. Adults that will be held accountable for their actions.

@ Paige…100% on your side that college is not for everyone. Neither should everyone be in a public k- 12 class be punished by being homoginized rather than paced at ability. (BTW I have one of those kids who used to hold the class back. I got lucky and got the school to listen—hard won fight but she got held back just so she could be at her learning level…and now she keeps pace just fine.)

JASon

January 19th, 2011
12:46 pm

“‘Do I want to be over-broad in protecting civil liberties or over-broad in protecting safety?’”

So a guy posts an insane video talking about genocide, and everyone is aok with it? Way to go, America, you’re the best.

vee

January 19th, 2011
12:53 pm

when a school refers a child it begins w/a long process of teachers evaluating, using strategies, etc. before a meeting is ever held to discuss the situation. you then wait months to get things going and if the lease runs out and they move elsewhere it is supposed to be transferred there, but you know how the govt. does things. parents also can be deciteful when registering @ new school. sometimes the initial teacher part isn’t completed during the school year and the next teacher doesn’t followup. so much can go wrong that the process is derailed. with talk of saving money by decreasing counselors in elem, problems could just fester.

i speak from experience of both sides. my children had these issues and i am a school system employee. when my oldest was first referred, we got our own psyc eval and the process was fast-tracked. so many parents haven’t reached the point of acceptance so early and/or have no resources for the evals that this usually never happens.

thanks for listening to my rambling. this is a long and difficult road for families and schools.

bunch of yentas

January 19th, 2011
12:54 pm

Everyone knows at least one person that they consider to be at least a little crazy.

I want to know more about what Jared Loughner believed. I don’t understand what he is talking about when he said that the government is using mind control to control our grammar. I mean, I know that whatever he is talking about is purely insane, but still, what does he mean by that. Control our grammar how? And what about all the stuff about lucid dreaming?

And I don’t believe for one second that he is sitting in there not talking. Crazy folks like this LOVE to talk. He is rambling on and on. I’d like to know what he’s saying.

ALH

January 19th, 2011
1:07 pm

Our society is getting more and more twisted. This guy is getting what he wants – mass attention and notoriety. Doesn’t matter if the attention is negative, its still attention and more than his “15 minutes”.

Colleges are a breeding ground for this kind of mental behavior. Young adults are just looking to fit in somewhere and their are more than enough loons out their that will educate him into “their” way of thinking.

I agree we have to do something to recognize the mental disorders that obviously exist in this country. Even basic personality disorders are the norm. It is hard to trust that you “know” anyone! We need to start with accepting PERSONAL RESPONISBILITY. If every individulas realized there are consequesnces, good or bad, or every action that would be a start.

Ralph Carlisle

January 19th, 2011
1:22 pm

I thought it was settled. All you have to do is not let them listen to Rush Limbaugh

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
1:35 pm

The problem is already apparent in the framing of the question in your byline:

Could the Loughner shooting have been stopped?

Sure.

Can all such tragedies be stopped ?

No.

Can many of them be stopped ?

Absolutely. But to do so, we need to have a functioning mental health system, which we don’t right now. In my opinion it is no use blaming institutions like community colleges for not assuming responsibility for getting individuals who are ill to treatment when there is no social education and consensus to support that.

ALH:

Completely disagree with you. This incident has nothing whatsoever to do with a desire for “15 minutes” of fame or lack of personal responsibility. This is an issue of how as a society to deal with people who suffer from devastating mental illnesses like severe paranoid schizophrenia and has nothing at all to do with the question of responsibility as normally understood.

Tim

January 19th, 2011
1:36 pm

Okay, first some thoughts here about the parents. I will take you back to Columbine for this. I heard many people blame the parents for that incident because the kids at Columbine were blowing things up in the woods and shooting stuff prior to their assault on the high school. I did those same things as a teen, but I never once thougth of striking out against anyone, students or teachers. We just thought it was cool to blow stuff up in the woods. Noone was going to get hurt (unless we were careless). What I am getting at, is this: How, as a parent, does one determine what is normal boy stuff and the makings of a terrorist? I ended up in the Marine Corps and now have a master’s degree and a successful career.

As for Loughner, I don’t know what his teen years were like prior to college, but I see so many youth, some firsthand during my time as a high school teacher, who are dark, say things just to get a reaction, and on the surface appear evil. Once you get to know these kids, you realize they are just out to get attention and would never want to hurt anyone. So how do you differentiate between those kids and the ones that end up like Loughner or the two teens at Columbine? It is very difficult. I don’t have the answer. I will just say, that we can’t truly blame the parents if they didn’t recognize these issues because sometimes it is hard to tell what is “just for show” and what is “for real.”

I do wish there was some way the school could have required Loughner to have had an evaluation, however, this opens up a whole new can of worms. And although I want Loughner tried and sentenced appropriately, you always have to fear that there will be innocent young people forced into psychiatric evaluations and have this noted on their records just because they are a little different but not truly a threat to themselves or others. This all goes back to, how do you establish who is a real threat and who is just blowing smoke to get a reaction. It is a very fine line and I truly wish I had the answer to it.

This all goes back to the question about civil liberties. Is it better to punish 100 innocent men in order to convict one truly guilty man? Or is it better to set free 100 guilty men in order to assure one innocent man is never erroneously found guilty? I guess it depends upon whether you child was the innocent one that was ostricized or your child was the one shot by Loughner. Perspective can mean everything.

Raymond

January 19th, 2011
1:40 pm

As the former spouse of a mentally ill person I can tell you that even when you try to seek help the professionals treat you like a hot potato. Nobody wants you to end up in their lap. The first time I took my ex to the hospital (against her will) we spent 4 hours there only to be released with a prescription for xanax. On the way home she tried to jump out of the car while we were doing 50. Two days later we saw a counselor who described our situation as an emergency. Before that we had been told that it’d take 3-4 weeks to see a mental health doctor. We were offered a marriage counselor instead. After her (counselor) call we saw him the next day and my ex was immediately hospitalized. It took over a week of being treated like a pin ball to get help. This is the kind of “help” you’ll get in an emergency. And if you don’t keep pushing it may take a month to see a mental health doctor.

“What you’re really doing is deciding, ‘Where do I want to make the mistakes? Do I want to be over-broad in protecting civil liberties or over-broad in protecting safety?’” said Steven McDonald, general counsel for the Rhode Island School of Design and an expert on student privacy laws and campus safety. “And you’re never going to get it exactly right.”

This is something we need to remember also. To which side do we choose to err? We are humans and therefore far from perfect.

Tim

January 19th, 2011
1:41 pm

one other thing I will not–and you can correct me if I am wrong–my assumptions above were based on the parents not knowing about his youtube videos and such. Some of the things he wrote were definitely overboard. But many of these things appear to have been written after he was in college and considered an adult–a little too late for the parents to force him into counseling. How many of you know everything your adult childeren write and post online? Some of you may know everything–some of you may be shocked to see the pictures your 20 something year old daughters post online. The guys may post things just as bad, but fathers tend to not worry as much about pictures of their sons as they do about pictures of their daughters.

ALH

January 19th, 2011
1:41 pm

Can we take away the “blogging rights” of folks like Ralph Carlisle? Would it be a violation of his 1st ammendment rights? Seriously, when are we going to stop blaming other people for our own actions? I am beginning to think that “hate groups” religiously and methodically listen to conservative talk and have given people like the former republican VP candidate their fame so it gives them some sort of twisted excuse to play the blame game.

I think someone like Ralph Carlisle is mentally off for posing such crap.

Tim

January 19th, 2011
1:42 pm

woops–first line should have read “note” instead of “not”

ALH

January 19th, 2011
1:48 pm

“Completely disagree with you.”

Someone with the moniker “Left wing management” disagrees with personal responsibility and accountability. How surprising? :)

Always a Parent

January 19th, 2011
1:50 pm

@Tim…. I totally agree with you when you say that a parent doesn’t know if it’s the kicking in of hormones or if the child is really onto something else. And if they are just looking for a reaction and are really decent people once you get to know them.

My son was a junior in high school when he started exhibiting just awful behavior. I watched him and what he was doing and from what I surmised he was hanging out with the wrong crowd and even started hanging around known gang members in our neighborhood that went to school with him. I know that they were gang members because they kept the red bandana in their pocket and they wore red all the time. When I noticed what was going on, my husband and I decided to move our family out of that school district and closer to the church we were attending, hoping to turn his behavior around. Well, the behavior got worse very rapidly, which we found out later was due to the stress of moving into a new school environment. Needless to say three weeks into his senior year, we bottomed out. I called my mom who reminded me that bipolar runs in our family (my brother is diagnosed) and I made an appt with a doctor the very next day.

Life hasn’t been easy but at least I know what I’m fighting against every day. I didn’t stick my head in the sand hoping someone else was going to get my son help. In fact, I went to the school and had a meeting with all of his teachers, AP, and SRO before he went back to school to let them know what was going on with him and how it was going to be best to handle his transition back to school after being medicated.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
1:54 pm

Tim: “As for Loughner, I don’t know what his teen years were like prior to college, but I see so many youth, some firsthand during my time as a high school teacher, who are dark, say things just to get a reaction, and on the surface appear evil. Once you get to know these kids, you realize they are just out to get attention and would never want to hurt anyone. So how do you differentiate between those kids and the ones that end up like Loughner or the two teens at Columbine?”

By all accounts Loughners teen years were fairly normal, but by his early twenties he began a downward spiral that in the past year became catastrophic. By the time he went on his rampage, he had suffered a devastating psychotic break and was obviously extremely dangerous.

The Columbine case was a bit different. It’s generally believed that one of the two shooters, Eric Harris, was a textbook sociopath who was probably beyond any help, while his accomplice, Dylan Klebold, was a suicidal depressive who gradually under the influence of Harris became a homicidal-suicidal depressive. Had he gotten some kind of treatment and help, it’s possible that Klebold could have recovered and lived a normal life. Not so, Harris.

Raymond: The situation you describe sounds about as bad as it gets and it perfectly reflects what I’ve heard elsewhere. There are many areas in America – many of them not only not poor, but downright affluent – where parents of dangerous schizophrenic children are told by officials to “wait until you think they are going to get violent” and then call the police, which obviously puts parents, who are already suffering immensely, into an even more desperate situation.

Is this really the best we can do?

This is not a mental health system in crisis, this is the complete absence of a system.

ls1z28chris

January 19th, 2011
1:56 pm

The top story on AJC.com is a blog on news articles? Maybe I should save this link for the next time someone at the AJC calls me asking to renew my subscription after ending it two years ago.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
1:57 pm

ALH: “Someone with the moniker “Left wing management” disagrees with personal responsibility and accountability. How surprising? :)”

Well, ok, but not sure what it is about “left wing” and “management” that conveys what you say, but whatever. :)

Care to respond to the content of what I said?

Hollywood cole

January 19th, 2011
1:59 pm

So…with all the experts reporting he was mentally deficient…we are gonna charge him with criminal murder and sentence him to jail instead of treatment? What is expected in a society where litigation rules? You cant even look at a student wrong…and they know that more than they know the lessons being taught..

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:03 pm

The guy was a left wing nut who enjoyed reading the communist manifesto. You might want to look at that before you talk about banning guns.

Logical

January 19th, 2011
2:05 pm

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

Why do you use three names?

Anyway, the sheriff, who should be fired by the way, knew about this guy way before the guy shot up the event. I blame people like him.

Logical

January 19th, 2011
2:07 pm

“did I write too much?? offer too many sources??? why no discussion on this?? I am shocked. ”

1: You did write a lot and you ask way too many questions.
2: There’s no discussion because normal people know exactly how to handle people like that.
3: SHOCKED!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m shocked that your editor doesn’t proof read your material before you post it.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:08 pm

Libs are idiots: “The guy was a left wing nut who enjoyed reading the communist manifesto. You might want to look at that before you talk about banning guns.”

Uh, actually you might want to try doing a little reading before repeating your right wing talking points. Didn’t you know he also listed Mein Kamp right by Communist Manifesto in his little ‘readling list’? Kind of blows your argument for ‘left wing nut’ out of the water right there, don’t you think?

No, Loughner was no left wing nut – any more than he was a right wing nut – and appears to have had little if any interest in politics generally speaking.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:10 pm

“Uh, actually you might want to try doing a little reading before repeating your right wing talking points. ”

I read it in the NY Times, Forrest.

“Didn’t you know he also listed Mein Kamp right by Communist Manifesto in his little ‘readling list’?”

Which is also left wing reading material.

“Kind of blows your argument for ‘left wing nut’ out of the water right there, don’t you think?”

Nope.

“No, Loughner was no left wing nut”

He hated Bush.

ALH

January 19th, 2011
2:12 pm

“Care to respond to the content of what I said?”

NO. Again, your “name” just has “looking for trouble” written all over it. Kind of like Ralph Carlisle!

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:13 pm

Left wing management

Are you one of those “Bookman” types who likes to argue with anyone and everyone?

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:17 pm

“Are you one of those “Bookman” types who likes to argue with anyone and everyone?”

Pretty much! :)

ALH: “NO. Again, your “name” just has “looking for trouble” written all over it. Kind of like Ralph Carlisle!”

Not sure how you see the issue of personal responsibility as relevant to the problem of how as a society to deal with people suffering from extremely severe or violent cases of schizophrenia.

Grad School

January 19th, 2011
2:18 pm

I agree with Libs …

Colleges and universities are ground zero for liberal hate. It is the 60’s all over again but with a biased media and the Internet being used to incite even more confusion.

Fred (with a capitol "F")

January 19th, 2011
2:23 pm

TWG – I didn’t think you posted too much as I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to go read it all. Too much to do these days catching up.

I fall on the side of personal responsibility. I don’t think we need to blame the school or the parents. I work at a larger higher ed institution and the chief of police told me twenty years ago that the kids coming in were much scarier than they were in the past. I guess it is a function of our society. I tend to believe the over the top rhetoric contributes (not causes) to a belief that some can take it into their own hands much like being exposed to violence and/or porn conditions you to accept the violence or porn easier. I think you can see this in society today. Along with the freedom to play the games/watch the slasher movies/watch the excessively violent porn comes the result that these types of behavior are more tolerated and accepted. Yet at the same time, we as a society as less likely to accept personal responsibility.

The man is clearly in hindsight seriously ill. I would be devastated if one of my family or friends were a victim but I would not blame the parents or the school. Sometimes no matter how much you don’t want to accept it, bad things happen and people die. I bet within a short period of time we will see lawsuits filed against the parents, the school and even the grocery store for allowing the event to take place with inadequate security.

Several people have mentioned it but we seem to do a really poor job as a society with our mentally ill citizens.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:24 pm

Libs are idiots: “Didn’t you know he also listed Mein Kamp right by Communist Manifesto in his little ‘readling list’? // Which is also left wing reading material.”

Come again?

This list in question – of which too much is probably being made anyway – was a list of ‘favorite’ reads, so I can’t really imagine a “left wing nut” citing that as a favorite.

Something tells me you’re someone who even if presented with powerful evidence that this guy suffered from severe schizophrenia and was not particularly interested in the political issues of the day, would still set about to twist the information to suit the right wing version. The right needs Loughner to have been a ‘left wing nut’, which is why you won’t consider any other possibility.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:27 pm

Grad School: “Colleges and universities are ground zero for liberal hate. It is the 60’s all over again but with a biased media and the Internet being used to incite even more confusion”

I agree with you the media is biased all right. With FOX news and the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity dominating the air waves, it’s very tough to get anything like a non-propagandistic account of the news or current issues any more.

Domino

January 19th, 2011
2:32 pm

This kid is from the ME generation. He most likely started out lacking any sort of personal responsibility and is very self centered. Lack of consequences starts the ball rolling to bigger things.

We all agree that we have a psycho on our hands with Loughner. Look at the basics – our level of personal accountability has sharply decreased as our level of serious mental illnesses and violence has increased.

It probably took years for him to get to this point, staying under the radar and undetected, building on the psychotic person he turned into. Just look at his mug shot. He is enjoying this notoriety.

ALH

January 19th, 2011
2:33 pm

“I agree with you the media is biased all right. With FOX news and the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity dominating the air waves, it’s very tough to get anything like a non-propagandistic account of the news or current issues any more.

Yep, the name “Left wing management” says it all…

ALH

January 19th, 2011
2:40 pm

“With FOX news and the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity dominating the air waves”

Left wing, then stop listening/watching if you don’t like the message. How is it that this programming dominates the airwaves when our nation is supposedly overwhelmingly democratic/liberal. Wouldn’t a liberal message be dominating and increasingly liberal society?
Please enlighten us on this phenomenon!

Grad School

January 19th, 2011
2:43 pm

I think you are agreeing with what you want to hear and I don’t think you read my post at all. The media is not biased to the right dude – just the exact opposite. Did you go to college?

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:44 pm

Domino: “This kid is from the ME generation. He most likely started out lacking any sort of personal responsibility and is very self centered. Lack of consequences starts the ball rolling to bigger things.”

I pretty much agree, but I don’t think it can entirely be put at the feet of the ME generation per se. We’ve had violent psychotics for a long time, but the challenges in the modern world of having a healthy ME, cultivating the formation of an individual who is independent but not asocial, motivated and with self-esteem but without pathological narcissism, and which has been problematic since at least the beginning of the industrial era, has only gotten more difficult with the breakdown of traditional structures of authority. The Baby Boom generation was already characterized as a Me generation, and there were certainly pathologies in that generation, but these problems have still not been properly understood, much less addressed, even as we continue to see new forms of pathology in the individual’s attempt to cope with the social world (bullying, boredom, lack of motivation, depression, aggression, etc.).

Dan Post

January 19th, 2011
2:49 pm

One thing the public needs to get through their head is that these are not kids! They are adults now and this isn’t elementary school it is college. These adults that can vote, join the military, etc. at some point have to take responsibility for themselves. Quit blaming the learning institution and thinking it is their constant responsibility to check up on Johnny or Susie. Parents, do your job if you love your child and look out for them, but don’t expect already over exhausted colleges to make right one more thing you did wrong before they even arrived at the institution. If they can’t cope or aren’t able to handle the stress of a college they should not be there in the first place.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:50 pm

“Pretty much! :) ”

Ok, so you’re basically saying that you have no life. :)

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:53 pm

“This list in question – of which too much is probably being made anyway – was a list of ‘favorite’ reads, so I can’t really imagine a “left wing nut” citing that as a favorite. ”

So………how do you come to the “conclusion” that the Mein Kampf is a “right wing” book?

“Something tells me you’re someone who even if presented with powerful evidence that this guy suffered from severe schizophrenia and was not particularly interested in the political issues of the day, would still set about to twist the information to suit the right wing version. ”

Something tells me that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about and therefore pull empty rhetoric out of your butt. I can decipher between facts and rhetoric and therefore come to my own conclusion.

“The right needs Loughner to have been a ‘left wing nut’, which is why you won’t consider any other possibility.”

Says the guy who’s own side blamed Sarah Palin for the shootings.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:53 pm

Grad School: The idea that the media has a left bias is a myth. I assume you’re in grad school from your name and from your naive confidence that “going to college” automatically makes one intelligent. If so, I’m sure that vouches for you being minimally intelligent, but unfortunately it doesn’t guarantee that you’re not naive and think that there really is such a thing as a ‘left wing’ media bias. But don’t take it from me, I’m just with the management. … :)

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:55 pm

Grad School

Lib professors can’t make a living in the real world so they end up getting tenure. Liberalism doesn’t do well in the real world.

See: B. Hussein Obama

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:55 pm

“With FOX news and the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity dominating the air waves”

LOLOL!!!!!! FOX is ONE news channel. Dude, please quit while you’re behind!

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:57 pm

ALH

Libs always complain about FOX yet they can’t stop watching/talking about it. I was watching Ed Schmuck on PMSNBC and the guy devoted 20 mins to his show talking about FOX and Sarah Palin.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:57 pm

Dan Post

Libs think that 26 year olds are kids. See: Obamacare.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 19th, 2011
2:59 pm

“This kid is from the ME generation…..He most likely started out lacking any sort of personal responsibility and is very self centered”…..wow…how long did you guys know him?

Can you tell us about the conversations you had with him and how he ticked in other ways…..OHHHHH wait a second…that’s all conjecture isn’t it?

You didn’t know him at all, you’re just presuming you’re correct because of your views on his generation as a whole. Ok…cool…just wanted to make sure i got it straight that you don’t know him or anything about him other than what you’ve read in the media of your choosing. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt though since the media as we know it is full of unbiased and accurate reporting. That guy MUST have shot people because he was from the ME generation. Reading the responses to this blog makes understanding life so much easier!

TWG….sorry for the slam…but it was pretty long….I have to cheat my visits of this blog during the work day…so dissertations are a little harder! No offense…I know you were excited about it!

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:59 pm

LIbs are idiots:

Suffice it to say, Mein Kampf was the manifesto written by the biggest right wing leader in history. It’s not on too many a left wing reading lists I know of, certainly not as a ‘favorite’, except perhaps as a study in political pathology.

“Says the guy who’s own side blamed Sarah Palin for the shootings.”

I didn’t say it and I thought it was a foolish and stupid thing for Moulitsas to say. I’m just as critical of people on my “side” who show a failure to grasp the serious problem of mental illness and to politicize it, just as I am of those I oppose politically. Palin is perhaps more guilty for degrading public discourse in our time more than any other single individual, but I would never claim that she was in any way responsible for the Arizona shootings.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:02 pm

“Suffice it to say, Mein Kampf was the manifesto written by the biggest right wing leader in history”

You’ve stupidly mixed up Riech Wing with Right Wing. Dude, quit while you’re behind! LOL

“It’s not on too many a left wing reading lists I know of”

Then again, the left despise Israel………

“I didn’t say it and I thought it was a foolish and stupid thing for Moulitsas to say.’

And Krugman, and Matthews and Shultz……….

“Palin is perhaps more guilty”

Then go arrest her, Gommer Pyle.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:02 pm

“Suffice it to say, Mein Kampf was the manifesto written by the biggest right wing leader in history. ”

Ladies and gentleman, I give you…….THE DUMBEST COMMENT OF THE DAY!!!!!!!!!

[...] Filter by Dates & Max Items original copy This entry was posted in Articles. Bookmark the permalink. ← Content Marketing Tips from [...]

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:04 pm

Left wing management

Hitler was an occultist who hated and wanted to exterminate Jews. I’m guessing that you failed world history.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:04 pm

“The idea that the media has a left bias is a myth.”

Geez, does the stupidity ever stop?

Victoria Kamm

January 19th, 2011
3:14 pm

Thank you so much for this. I did a YouTube video about this and two comments were so mean spirited I couldn’t believe it. I have never met a parent who was laissez-faire about their child’s problems. It’s the lazy way to have an “explanation” so the haters can believe it can’t happen to them. Pitiful.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:35 pm

Left wing management

If you ever come back, you should check this out. Last week Obama called for “civility” and here we have a democrat calling republicans nazis.

No wonder America hates your party.

Democrat Compares Republicans to Nazis

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/01/abc-news-jonathan-karl-reports-the-newfound-civility-didnt-last-long-political-rhetoric-in-congress-doesnt-get-much.html

Stacey

January 19th, 2011
3:45 pm

@Tim…Well said. When I was a growing up (I’m 40) if a kid was interested in guns, explosives, etc, most people just expected him to grow up and join the military. The kid who asked a lot of questions about disease and death was the one we thought would grow up and cure cancer or become a great scientist. Nowadays, it’s a sign that these same kids are going to grow up to be psychopaths and terrorists. How do we know the difference?

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:48 pm

“Nowadays, it’s a sign that these same kids are going to grow up to be psychopaths and terrorists.”

So, because a kid likes guns they will automatically grow up to kill people???????????

“How do we know the difference?”

Behavior.

Denise

January 19th, 2011
4:28 pm

As some of you know, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder at age 22 when I was in college. Over 18, out of parents home, so I was on my own except for the help of my friends. Not only did my parents not “help” (my mama tried but her solution was for me to quit school – great, make me feel like a failure on top of a nut), family acted like I was in the “nothing is wrong with you” category. So you can say all day every day that parents’ influence could have made a difference but there is no guarantee that the influence would be toward accepting their condition and move toward healing. No, my parents were not responsible for me but I sure would have liked to get some support. Not all parents know how to handle serious issues in their own lives much less in their children’s lives.

And no, the school is not responsible to make people get mental health help but offering access is a good idea.

Stacey

January 19th, 2011
4:34 pm

@Libs are idiots…Although I believe you are trying to be nasty and sarcastic, that’s the point I’m trying to make. What was viewed as perfectly normal and a sign of intelligent curiosity (and still is by many, including me) people now say are signs of trouble that any caring parent, teacher, principal, etc should have recognized and gotten help for BEFORE the behavior took place.

Aquagirl

January 19th, 2011
4:36 pm

I understand you can’t force people into counseling, there’s a lack of resources anyhow, blah blah blah….what is incredible to me is that he could pass a background check and buy a gun. I’m all for the 2nd Amendment but if you’ve been banned from places because you’re scary and show clear evidence of mental illness, you should not be able to purchase a gun. Period. And that’s no fault of the college.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
4:36 pm

“Although I believe you are trying to be nasty and sarcastic, that’s the point I’m trying to make. ”

I was being sarcastic, not nasty.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
4:38 pm

“what is incredible to me is that he could pass a background check and buy a gun.”

The sheriff has yet to release documents about the killer. What’s he hiding?

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
4:47 pm

Libs are idiots:

Not sure what you’re squawking about. We got on to titles like Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf because you were off on a tear repeating the right wing lie that Loughner was a left wing nut, which is nonsense. So, by that logic, we can just as well conclude he’s a right wing nut, as Mein Kampf was also on the list.

So in other words I’m making a point by illustrating the weakness of your logic.

Follow me, or you need me to slow down?

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
5:07 pm

“Not sure what you’re squawking about. We got on to titles like Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf because you were off on a tear repeating the right wing lie that Loughner was a left wing nut, which is nonsense.”

He hated Bush. His favorite books were left wing leaning books. You were saying?

“Mein Kampf was also on the list. ”

I don’t know any right wingers who have ever read that book.

“So in other words I’m making a point by illustrating the weakness of your logic.”

You’re not smart are you.

“Follow me, or you need me to slow down?’

You have the IQ of a carrot.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
5:09 pm

Left wing management

Please show me anything that links Hitler to the political right in this country. You seem to think that Reich and Right are the same thing which leads me to believe that you never took a history class.

The guy hated Bush. Can’t get anymore left wing than that.

Now, as far as slowing down, I think you fell off the short bus years ago.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
5:23 pm

Libs are idiots: “The guy hated Bush. Can’t get anymore left wing than that.”

I haven’t even heard this reported and I’ve read a good bit about the individual. Sure you’re not making this up?

So since when does hating Bush translate to being left wing? Such arguments are making me wonder about you idiots. Reminds me of Lil Barry Bailout over in the Bookman forum. Are you the same guy by any chance?

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
5:38 pm

“I haven’t even heard this reported and I’ve read a good bit about the individual. Sure you’re not making this up? ”

“He became intrigued by antigovernment conspiracy theories, including that the Sept. 11 attacks were perpetrated by the government and that the country’s central banking system was enslaving its citizens. His anger would well up at the sight of President George W. Bush, or in discussing what he considered to be the nefarious designs of government. ”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/us/16loughner.html?_r=4&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=3&adxnnlx=1295272816-mzPTbiXmgfYK5d56DmiDjg

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
5:42 pm

“So since when does hating Bush translate to being left wing? ”

Oh I don’t know……might have to do with all the rhetoric about how the left wanted to see Bush dead. A left wing director made a movie about Bush getting shot. If you want, I can post some pics of left wing protesters holding up signs about Bush.

“Such arguments are making me wonder about you idiots.”

What arguments? I have actual facts/pictures/remarks about the left hating Bush.

“Reminds me of Lil Barry Bailout over in the Bookman forum.”

You remind me of Granny Godzilla.

“Are you the same guy by any chance?”

Nope, I left Bookman’s blog looooooooooooooooooong ago. Got tired of the hate speech by the left and Bookman’s tolerance for it.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
5:44 pm

“Such arguments are making me wonder about you idiots. ”

I find it ironic that you’ve pretty much labeled the right as “mean spirited” etc and you just called me an idiot.

You ma’am, are one of the reasons people stay away from Bookman’s blog. The only people who live are his little minions like Granny Godzilla, AmVet, Kamchak etc… People like that live on that blog 24/7 like they own the place.

I’d be willing to wager a little money that most of them are unemployed, live off of welfare or sit in their local library blogging all day.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
6:05 pm

““So since when does hating Bush translate to being left wing? // Oh I don’t know……might have to do with all the rhetoric about how the left wanted to see Bush dead ”

Again, you seem to be having trouble following my argument. I’m simply pointing out that just because someone loathes George W. Bush does not make them a leftie, which I’m sure you would see if you would only step back from your hyper-partisan position. There are all kinds of reasons one can have for hating Bush, just like Obama, and they don’t all mean that the person is on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

“You ma’am, are one of the reasons people stay away from Bookman’s blog.”

Guessing my gender eh? Guess again. :)

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
6:20 pm

“Again, you seem to be having trouble following my argument. I’m simply pointing out that just because someone loathes George W. Bush does not make them a leftie”

Interesting how you didn’t elaborate nor answer my question about linking the Mein Kampf to right wingers. People who “loathe” W are 9 times out of 10 gonna vote democrat. I don’t know a single right winger who loathes W.

“hyper-partisan position.”

Pot meet kettle.

“There are all kinds of reasons one can have for hating Bush, just like Obama, and they don’t all mean that the person is on the opposite side of the political spectrum. ‘

Oh, I’d say they would.

“Guessing my gender eh? Guess again. :)”

It was a joke, Forrest.

deidre_NC

January 19th, 2011
6:28 pm

@always a parent-my mother was bi polar and my 2 daughters are, so i know where you are coming from. there comes a time when a person just has to be responsible for what they do. even teens. parents can not be help responsible for everything a kid does. we dont know everything they do!! there is a term ‘normalcy bias’ this means that people can not believe the worst thing that can happen. we all are ‘guilty’ of this. it is normal for humans to have this normalcy bias. until the worst happens we really cant imagine it. now that the trade centers were blasted-we can imagine that-before it happened who could? when you live with a person day to day-their behavior becomes normal to you, to a certain extent. there is just no way we can blame those parents-or the school-not unless he actually told them he was going to go try to kill a bunch of people. then maybe some of the blame could be placed-even then- most humans would wonder and maybe worry-but maybe not believe him. (of course if he told his school or parents he was going to do this then yes they should have done something….but he didnt-he just acted weird. and how many know people who act weird? i know several.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
6:32 pm

“Interesting how you didn’t elaborate nor answer my question about linking the Mein Kampf to right wingers.”

But I told you I’m not interested in discussing the association between the Nazis and the American right (but if I did, I’m sure it’s not unheard of for Nazi sympathizing tendencies to find expression on the reading lists of a certain Glen Beck) as it’s not relevant in this case. All I want to say is that based on everything we know Jared Loughner is not a left wing nut.

“People who “loathe” W are 9 times out of 10 gonna vote democrat.”

Consistent with what I said. I didn’t say never. I said it’s possible. Awww whassamatter, still sore they’re beating up on your beloved W? Believe me, friend, it’s possible to oppose the guy and have nothing at all to do with left wing politics.

deidre_NC

January 19th, 2011
6:35 pm

and theresa i was glad you posted everything because i probably woundnt have clicked on the links. i have so much reading to do for school im not reading much that isnt required lol…i can see how some 9like tigewr at work –shame shame lol) would not like the abundance of info…we just all have to pick and choose.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
6:41 pm

“But I told you I’m not interested in discussing the association between the Nazis and the American right ”

So why did you make the claim?

“Nazi sympathizing tendencies to find expression on the reading lists of a certain Glen Beck) ”

Huh????????????????????

“All I want to say is that based on everything we know Jared Loughner is not a left wing nut. ”

“We?” From what I’ve read about him reading the communist manifesto and hating Bush, I’ve come to the conclusion that he IS a left wing nut.

“Awww whassamatter, still sore they’re beating up on your beloved W?”

Nope, W was a two term president. Doesn’t matter what you or I say about him. His legacy is being carried on by Obama.

We’re still in both wars, the Bush tax cuts were extended and Gitmo is still open.

“Believe me, friend, it’s possible to oppose the guy and have nothing at all to do with left wing politics.”

Ok.

Sandra

January 19th, 2011
7:06 pm

I think that it can be hard to decide if someone is mentally ill, has a disorder or just a little strange. I would think that it might even be a harder call to make for parents (and some grandparents) because they see their kids all the time.

Example: My husband and I noticed that one of our nephews seemed to be slightly off. We couldn’t put our finger on it and for a while put it down to him just being overly excited. When we finally decided to mention it we called hubby’s mother (the grandmother of the nephew) and told her. All hell broke loose, She saw us as being mean and jealous. A few years later, This nephew was diagnosed as having an attention deficit disorder. We noticed the changes because we didn’t see our nephew on a regular basis while nephew’s behaviour was normal to his parents and grandparents. They thought he was just being very naughty the entire time while we could see there was something wrong.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 19th, 2011
7:16 pm

John McCain hated Bush…..is he left wing?

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
7:22 pm

Libs are idiots: “Nope, W was a two term president. Doesn’t matter what you or I say about him. His legacy is being carried on by Obama.”

Well what do you know, we finally agree on something …

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
7:24 pm

“John McCain hated Bush…..is he left wing?”

Where is your proof that he hated Bush?

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
7:25 pm

“Well what do you know, we finally agree on something …”

Ok. Say hey to Bookman for me.

-LA

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 19th, 2011
7:29 pm

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1823695-3,00.html

one of the many articles detailing how those two really couldn’t stand each other.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 19th, 2011
7:30 pm

it was widely reported and accepted by both sides (conservative and liberal) that Bush and McCain, while in the same party, had deep misgivings for each other.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
7:41 pm

Sandra: “I think that it can be hard to decide if someone is mentally ill, has a disorder or just a little strange. I would think that it might even be a harder call to make for parents (and some grandparents) because they see their kids all the time.”

Mental illness is a very fluid concept nowadays, ranging from disabilities that are challenging but manageable all the way to the most devastating types of illnesses that make it impossible for a person to function, or in the worst cases, even make them very dangerous. How do you tell the difference between someone with a case of Aspergers or garden variety ADD and someone who’s in trouble? I guess you have to talk to a number of clinicians, who will all have a different take. But there are certainly some indicators of the most severe types of disturbance, having to do with a noticeable proclivity towards violence or aggression, hearing of voices, obsessive feeling of being manipulated or controlled by others, and certain types of language disturbances (strangely disjointed thought patterns, but most of all the sense of a struggle to patch together a ‘new’ or idiosyncratic language out of scraps of ‘ordinary’ language). Many of these things appear to have been manifested by Jared Loughner, but no one was prepared to recognize them or if they could recognize them, act on them. Hence the tragic outcome.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
8:23 pm

“that Bush and McCain, while in the same party, had deep misgivings for each other.”

So how does “misgiving’ equal hatred?

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
8:24 pm

“one of the many articles detailing how those two really couldn’t stand each other.”

I read nothing in that article that suggests that Mccain “hates” Bush. They may not like each other but I highly doubt that Mccain hates/hated Bush.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
8:25 pm

“but no one was prepared to recognize them or if they could recognize them”

That’s a flat out lie. From the NY Times piece to other reports, many people saw the signs.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
8:27 pm

“Hence the tragic outcome.”

Lib speak for “ban the guns.”

Quick note: Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the USA yet they have the highest gun crime rate in the entire country. Rather ironic if you ask me.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
8:55 pm

idiots Nothing on pay per view tonight?

Look, you’re in a little too deep here. If you don’t understand the meaning of the English idiom “was not prepared to”, which means could not, were unable to, then I really can’t help you.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
6:37 am

Wow Theresa. Were you writing a thesis on a punk conspiracy nut that should be quickly taken and 40 cent justice applied?
There is nothing to understand, except swift justice for all of the victims, and no mercy for the creep perpertrator. I couldn’t care less about this jerks mental state. I just wish I had been in that crowd, with just a little chance to place a well aimed round somewhere in that wackos body, and hope that he croaked slowly and painfully. Really, it’s too bad someone didn’t do that “after” they subdued him and put his “tortured mind” to sleep, like the rabid dog that he is.

JATL

January 20th, 2011
9:02 am

@shaggy -LOL! Agreed -I understand why it’s not a good idea to have widespread vigilante justice, but a little bit wouldn’t hurt now and then!

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
9:24 am

“idiots Nothing on pay per view tonight? ”

This is 2011, ma’am. Get with the program.

“Look, you’re in a little too deep here. ”

I love how left wingers always pretend that they are a dominate force when in reality they are nothing more than a small percentage of the population.

“If you don’t understand the meaning of the English idiom “was not prepared to”, which means could not, were unable to, then I really can’t help you.”

LOL!!!!!!! Pretending to be smart is not your strong suit.

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

January 20th, 2011
10:24 am

I have a new blog coming by noon (I think) —- I didn’t get it written last night so I am writing this morning. Sorry — I iwll post a link as soon as I have it up. — It is a good one!!

Sandra

January 20th, 2011
11:30 am

Left Wing Management,

The problem is noticing the signs and symptoms before someone has a complete break from reality. In this case, he was scaring the other students.

In the above blog, One of the ways he was described was creepy. I met a some very creepy people when I was a teen/young adult.

I once had a guy tell me that he had named his rifle after me. I personally thought that was a tad strange. Maybe all guys name their rifles after girls they have just seen in passing and then go to a party for the sole reason of letting them know this fact. I never dated a lot and might have missed this part of the dating ritual that requires the naming of weapons after the object of interest. Luckily my hubby didn’t and doesn’t own a rifle so he never got the chance to scare me off by naming a gun after me.

Another guy had decided that we were dating because I smiled at him while at my part time job. I was suppose to smile at him as I was taking his order at the time. The next thing I knew he was driving his family around to “view” me and calling my place of work to find out when I would next be in so that he could stand at the back and stare at me. It became so bad that people had to come outside with me at the end of my shift to make sure he wasn’t hanging out by my car. My parents found out when he managed to obtain my phone number and started heavy breathing calling. Any one who starts off a call with “Do you remember me? I drew you a picture.” is the definition of creepy.

I have also met some very hostile people and there are a lot of teens and young adults that have at least some difficulty in understanding what they have done wrong either in the classroom or at home. As far as I know none of these people that I have personally met have gone on to commit crimes or mass homicide.

How does someone know what is strange but mainly harmless or strange and dangerous? If people started reporting everyone they thought was creepy, hostile or in denial about being wrong, then almost everyone would be reported including themselves. The ability to read the signs is something that ordinary people do not have the skills for. How often do professionals miss the signs.

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

January 20th, 2011
11:46 am

new topic up !!

Did the snow days screw up your custody days??? Hearing from parents they lost time and will also lose time with school make-up days cut out winter breaks for some kids.
http://blogs.ajc.com/momania/2011/01/20/did-the-snow-days-throw-off-your-custody-days/

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
12:07 pm

Sandra:

Those are some creepy experiences.

“The problem is noticing the signs and symptoms before someone has a complete break from reality. In this case, he was scaring the other students.”

The line between someone with a creepy, but less dangerous obsession because you smiled at him and someone who’s a walking time bomb is difficult to call. But one thing that might make the difference for example is if the man in question became convinced you smiled at him because he saw you smile in a picture or because your name coincides with his or suggests ’smiling’, etc. In the former case you have obsession while in the latter case you likely have a case of psychosis. Not that psychosis means there will always be violence or that garden-variety obsession means there’s won’t be, but it’s an important distinction to make in assessing the danger.

In Loughner’s case, it’s telling that a fellow student said on day 1 that he was “mentally disturbed” and expressed the fear of violence. Her instincts, it turns out, were spot on and there must be some mechanism for giving these intuitions a hearing and not simply sweeping them under the rug.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
12:17 pm

Left wing management

I have another idea. Let’s publicly execute the creep and send a message that this IS what will happen if you cross the line, nutball or not.
Let’s do this next Tuesday. i have room on my calendar.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
12:19 pm

shaggy:

What’s the “line” ?

What’s a “nutball” ?

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
12:20 pm

LWM,

If you can’t answer either of those questions, I have nothing for you.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
12:31 pm

Shaggy:

C’mon, Einstein, you’re about as slow as ‘lib idiot.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
12:35 pm

shaggy:

But to come back to your point, which amounts to “just exterminate the vermin”, what does that accomplish exactly? And would you include a con man like Bernie Madoff in your group of nutballs for ex?

C’mon now. If you don’t want to be ignored, try for some intelligence here. You own a computer so I know you’re capable of it.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
12:47 pm

LWM,

You are new around this blog, so I will forgive the attempts at trolling.

Let me break it down for a simpleton:
1) Murder is a fine example of crossing the “line”. I say kill em back, quickly, and with much public fanfare.
2) All you have to do to define “nutball” is to read practically anything about this creep.

I am a Libertarian, so I really don’t care if you are a nutball or not, as long as you keep your creepy, nutball self private and do no harm in public. If you cross that line, that public line, I have no mercy for you and don’t care about fixing you. Then, I just want you to pay and pay dearly.

Now, is that clear enough for an empty headed dimwit? Is it sweetie?

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
12:54 pm

@Libs are stupid..

“I read nothing in that article that suggests that Mccain “hates” Bush. They may not like each other but I highly doubt that Mccain hates/hated Bush.”

Somehow I have the feeling that if MY article would have read that McCain’s ” anger would well up at the sight of President George W. Bush” (which was certainly demonstrated when McCain told Bush to get his hands off him after their debate) you would have also come to the conclusion that you “read nothing in that article that suggests that Mccain ‘hates’ Bush”.

But that same sentence about the Tucson shooter makes him a hater of Bush and subsequently a subversive leftist.

Your article quote never said he hated bush. Said he got angry at the sight of him. YOU said he hated him. There are lots of right wingers who got angry with Bush, just at the sight of him. There were times that Rush even publicly criticized him. I imagine there have been times during Bush’s drinking years that Laura Bush got angry at the sight of him.

My point is exactly your point, and that is that one can dislike Bush and not automatically be a left wing lunatic.

I think your biases showed there.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:00 pm

@Libs….

So I’ll concede that the article I submitted never said that McCain hates Bush…

Your turn to show me where your article says the Tucson shooter hates Bush….

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
1:13 pm

shaggy: “I am a Libertarian, so I really don’t care if you are a nutball or not, as long as you keep your creepy, nutball self private and do no harm in public. If you cross that line, that public line, I have no mercy for you and don’t care about fixing you. Then, I just want you to pay and pay dearly.”

Ok, fair enough. I see no need for us to go back in forth any further. Suffice it to say, I find the libertarian view as it relates to law enforcement – as with just about every other domain of life – laughably simplistic and naive. I think it goes without saying that you don’t have the slightest interest in mental illness as a moral problem in its own right, and you either believe the mentally ill are subject to deterrence with harsh punishments, or, failing that, you throw up your hands and conclude they’re a plague to be exterminated. Both approaches amount to closing your eyes to the problem, whistling past the graveyard.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:22 pm

“laughably simplistic and naive.”

Irony: B Hussein Obama, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, throws a dinner for the president of China who threw the current Nobel Peace Prize winner in prison.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:24 pm

“So I’ll concede that the article I submitted never said that McCain hates Bush…”

So you admit defeat. Fine with me.

“Your turn to show me where your article says the Tucson shooter hates Bush….”

Anyone who believes that 911 was an inside job, reads the communist manifesto and guns down a group of people at a political rally is a hater. His friends are on record saying he hated Bush.

From the NY Times: He became intrigued by antigovernment conspiracy theories, including
that the Sept. 11 attacks were perpetrated by the government and that
the country’s central banking system was enslaving its citizens. His
anger would well up at the sight of President George W. Bush, or in
discussing what he considered to be the nefarious designs of
government.

Mccain didn’t hate Bush. Mccain never shot a politician in the head.

Check mate.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:30 pm

Hmmmmm…. I find it curious that with your penchant for citing your sources, you provided none to substantiate his friends “being on record”. Where’s the record?

To me it sounded more like the shooter hated the government, not Bush specifically.

Sounds like in your eyes people who hate the government today all just have some tea together and talk about how right they are and people who hated the last administration are idiots.

Hypocrisy like yours never ends in a checkmate.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
1:34 pm

LWM,

You are finally getting it. I hope these mentally deficient nutballs can be fixed before they do harm in public. I see gain for society in that.
However, yes, keep it simple “Libertarian Style”. I like that…”Keep it Simple, Libertarian Style” Then, maybe, just maybe, someone will be responsible when creeps like this commit their mayhem. Maybe the parents will look a little harder, be more involved in their childs life, so junior won’t end up being the next American-public-execution-Idol. It could just as easy be someone else raising the red flag before they act out, I don’t care. If nobody does, then, so be it. Guaranteed, they would never kill again…add rape, treason, and aggravated child molestation to that list too.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:42 pm

“Where’s the record?”

Ask the NY Times.

“Sounds like in your eyes people who hate the government today all just have some tea together and talk about how right they are and people who hated the last administration are idiots.”

Huh????????

“Hypocrisy like yours never ends in a checkmate.”

Poor crybaby.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
1:42 pm

Tiger,

I too read that quote from nutball’s friends, where he was purported to hate Bush. However, I have also known that there was no love between McCain and Bush, especially when Bush ran his dirty smear attack ads about McCain in the 2000 campaign and did everything possible to make McCain look too “unstable” to be president. There was only a tolerance of each other, once it was clear that McCain would be the 2008 nominee.
I would’t say they hate each other, but I highly doubt they would go fishing together either.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:43 pm

“To me it sounded more like the shooter hated the government, not Bush specifically. ”

He is a registered Democrat.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:45 pm

Hey lib….

you cited your one article from the NY times…had it in pretty quotes and everything…..

why is it so hard to find the other article that puts them on the record?

Forgive me for not just taking your word for it…..

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:48 pm

“he was a registered democrat”

what is your point? what connection are you attempting to make?

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
1:49 pm

“He is a registered Democrat.”

Wrong.

C’mon now, get your facts straight.

But in the end, it doesn’t matter who he hated.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
1:51 pm

Enter your comments here

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:51 pm

@Libs….

Timothy McVeigh was a registered Republican

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

“Anyone who believes that 911 was an inside job, reads the communist manifesto and guns down a group of people at a political rally is a hater’ ….. YOUR WORDS

Apparently Republicans can be JUST as screwed up as Democrats…….shocking.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:53 pm

“C’mon now, get your facts straight. ”

Are you illiterate?

“But in the end, it doesn’t matter who he hated.”

Sure it does. People died.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:54 pm

“Timothy McVeigh was a registered Republican”

David Duke was a registered Democrat as was George Wallace, Bull Conor and Charles Manson.
Your point?

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:56 pm

@libs

“Sure it does. People died.”

So by your own logic….the party with whom someone who commits an atrocity is registered to can, and should be, villified and impugned for the actions of that person.

Cool with me…please revisit Tim McVeighs registered party.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:59 pm

@libs….

do you not find it just a bit hypocritical that you ask for my point of party affiliation when I present it, but you offer no explanation to your point when you make the same statement?

Not even a little bit?

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
2:05 pm

“Cool with me…please revisit Tim McVeighs registered party.”

Sure, and you can revisit David Dukes, George Wallace and the rest of the KKK’s registered party.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
2:05 pm

“but you offer no explanation to your point when you make the same statement?”

It’s called a rebuttal. When you threw out Tim McVeighs name in my face, I countered it. Make sense?

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
2:15 pm

@Libs…

Not a whole lot of sense considering you threw out the party affiliation relationship and was asked what your point was BEFORE I made the McVeigh statement.

Come to think of it, you STILL haven’t explained being a registered democrat has to do with Tucson shooter.

At least I explained the point of my rebuttal. Which was, that if I were to take your logic (assumed logic, I’ll admit, because you won’t explain what you meant with your party affilliation statement), then party affiliation can give insight to, and should be assigned in part for, the crime committed. By that logic, which you don’t refute in the case of the Tucson shooter, the Republicans get to own in some way, shape, or form, the OK City bombing because McVeigh was registered with them.

For the record, I think that kind of association is just stupid….but that’s kind of my POINT!

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
2:22 pm

“Not a whole lot of sense considering you threw out the party affiliation relationship and was asked what your point was BEFORE I made the McVeigh statement. ”

Well, it was relevant.

“you STILL haven’t explained being a registered democrat has to do with Tucson shooter.”

You aren’t bright are you.

“I think that kind of association is just stupid”

You’re problem, not mine.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
2:23 pm

Libs are idiots:

Jared Loughner was, based on everything we know, a registered Independent. But there’s one thing we can count on as a given, and that is the fact that had Loughner been a registered Republican, your mouth would close and you would refuse to open it again on the issue until we changed topics.

The proof?

Let’s watch as you dodge when I introduce into the discussion the little matter of the crazed shooter who got into a shootout with police while en route to San Francisco to attack the Tides Foundation, an obscure foundation that the man would never have heard of but for the consisting ranting of right wing talker Glenn Beck.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
2:31 pm

“based on everything we know, a registered Independent.”

Then again, you don’t know anything.

“had Loughner been a registered Republican”

But he isn’t.

“Let’s watch as you dodge when I introduce into the discussion the little matter of the crazed shooter ”

You mean like when you and other libs dodge the fact that the KKK were all democrats?

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
2:32 pm

@lib….

maybe I’m not bright….elighten me.

Simple question, let’s see if you can, or will, answer it.

What point were you attempting to make when you posted the following:

“To me it sounded more like the shooter hated the government, not Bush specifically. ”

He is a registered Democrat.

Pretty simple question. Forgive me, I don’t read between the lines that well. Here’s your shot.

What point was supposed to be evident to me in that post? Seriously…I’m curious.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
2:32 pm

“Glenn Beck”

Then go arrest him.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
2:34 pm

“maybe I’m not bright….elighten me.’

You need help using spell check.

“What point was supposed to be evident to me in that post? Seriously…I’m curious.”

The point is the guy hated Bush, loved communism and voted Democrat. Rep. Giffords voted against Obamacare and that angered the shooter. She was a blue dog democrat.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
2:43 pm

and because of those assertions of yours, he’s an accurate representation of your average, left of center democrat?

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
2:49 pm

“and because of those assertions of yours, he’s an accurate representation of your average, left of center democrat?”

Si.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
2:54 pm

Lib idiot: “You mean like when you and other libs dodge the fact that the KKK were all democrats?”

Did I not call it?

I conclude, you’re not a worthy debater. Last you’ll hear from me.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
2:57 pm

it’s just that simple to make that association to you, huh?

So timothy McVeigh hated the government for it’s handling of the Waco Seige, was a militia movement sympathizer, was raised a Roman Catholic, and thought that George HW Bush’s war with Iraq was hypocritical, and voted Republican….right before he killed 168 people and injured 450 others (many of whom were children in the daycare center.

Do YOU it’s as simple to say he’s is an accurate representation of your average right of center Republican.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
2:57 pm

“do you feel it’s as simple”

sorry, i know you’re a closet editor.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
3:12 pm

“I conclude, you’re not a worthy debater. Last you’ll hear from me.”

Oh no!!!!!!!! A Bookman cult follower says I’m not worthy!!!!!! What on Earth will I do???????

You must be big in the land of make believe.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
3:13 pm

“it’s just that simple to make that association to you, huh?”

Pot meet kettle.

“Do YOU it’s as simple to say he’s is an accurate representation of your average right of center Republican.”

Are you still talking, Forrest?

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
3:13 pm

“sorry, i know you’re a closet editor.”

No, but it is easy to use spell check.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
3:36 pm

i’ll guess I’ll stop talking since you’ve stopped answering.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
3:40 pm

Libs are idiots, Tiger, and LWM,

How does party affiliation play into a creepy, jerk that decided to kill a few countrymen? It seems to be the media (both sides) that loves to play American vs American, for their own glorification and enrichment/ratings.
Frankly, I don’t care how the loser votes or his political beliefs, just take him and treat him like the rabid dog that he is. You do know what has to be done to a rabid animal, don’t you?

JATL

January 20th, 2011
3:43 pm

I posted this yesterday, but the moderators cannot seem to check three simple links regarding studies that find liberals actually are more intelligent than conservatives. Anyway -here is the first part of that post:

@Libs are idiots -you should meet my dad. He’s staunchly right wing conservative and he can’t stand Bush. Neither can at least 3 other Republican friends of mine. I’m solidly an Independent/Libertarian type, and I can’t stand him either -so there go your statistics. Of course, given your name, you’re obviously one for sweeping generalizations. As far McCain -it’s well documented if you care to Google that he has great disdain for Bush -perhaps even hate. He (rightly) blames Bush for costing him the 2000 nomination due to our own state’s Ralph Reed’s insane tactics in South Carolina that unfortunately worked -among them having people hand out fliers and spread the word that McCain fathered a black child out of wedlock complete with a family photo. It happened to be the adopted daughter of John AND Cindy McCain. You’re free to go back in Vanity Fair’s archives and read a chilling interview with Ralph Reed regarding the whole affair and Bush’s full knowledge of it.

Here’s another little tidbit you may be interested in as well since you think all liberals are idiots. You don’t have to agree with them, but many of them are incredibly intelligent -including that really famous liberal, Albert Einstein (maybe you’ve heard of him?). This is where the links were.

As far as the KKK being a bunch of registered Democrats -yes, some were a long time ago. Study some history and you’ll realize how much both the Republican and Democratic parties have changed over the last 150 years. However, I’m pretty sure no current member of the KKK is a registered Democrat.

To me, you sound like the blowhard loudmouths on television and talk radio. Over-broad generalizations about everything and everyone, but you don’t really have much to say. You hate Obama and you hate Democrats, so you’re trying to somehow blame the Tucson shootings on Democrats. That’s not only pathetic, but horribly misguided and wrong and perhaps in the spirit of what is fueling the fire of crazies like Loughner. As I said, I’m an Independent, but I’ve voted for candidates from both parties. I don’t understand why Jared Loughner’s political affiliation means anything. MANY people disagree with politicians, but few take guns and shoot them or their constituents. When they do they’ve crossed the line into criminal insanity -and once you go there, why does it matter what political party you’re a part of? I can’t stand Sarah Palin, but I certainly don’t blame her or any other Republican for Tucson. It’s Jared’s fault -HIS -not his political party’s.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
3:49 pm

JATL,

Well said. shaggy applauds.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
3:52 pm

shaggy….that was the point I was trying to make. What party the shooter was affiliated with has no bearing to his actions. The guy was/is deranged. Note I didn’t say insane, but rather deranged and any political views or affiliations he had can’t logically or reasonably be placed on the party he was registered with. Just like Tim McVeigh wasn’t an accurate representative of the Republicans. There’s a fine line between a fanatic and a passionate follower of their beliefs. Obviously, those who resort to the acts the Tucson shooter and McVeigh are not indicative of any political party. That’s the whole point…..

unless your ‘lib”, because to him those who perform violent atrocities and are allied to the party he opposes (however thinly), they ARE lumped in with all the rest….but show an example of a monster allied to his beliefs (however thinly) and that guy is just a outlier nutjob that bears no relation to him.

It’s just patently hypocritical and illogical.

deidre_NC

January 20th, 2011
3:55 pm

well said JATL

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
3:58 pm

Tiger,

Agree, on all points. JATL posted a great one on this. I think it might be the best I have read here.

HUH?????????????

January 20th, 2011
4:23 pm

“three simple links regarding studies that find liberals actually are more intelligent than conservatives.”

So if libs are so intelligent, why are they always looking to government for money?

HUH?????????????

January 20th, 2011
4:23 pm

“three simple links regarding studies that find liberals actually are more intelligent than conservatives.”

If libs are so intelligent, why do they borrow money from their conservative parents?

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
4:29 pm

“including that really famous liberal, Albert Einstein”

LOL!!!! Ok.

“However, I’m pretty sure no current member of the KKK is a registered Democrat.”

David Duke is. Robert Byrd was before he died last year.

“To me, you sound like the blowhard loudmouths on television and talk radio.”

You must be under the false impression that I care what you think.

“You hate Obama and you hate Democrats”

WRONG!!!!!!! You are doing exactly what you are accusing me of doing.

“so you’re trying to somehow blame the Tucson shootings on Democrats.”

WRONG!!!!!! I never blamed Democrats. I blamed the guy who is a Democrat voter.

“As I said, I’m an Independent”

Mmmmmmmmm, no you’re not and your comments prove it.

Simple question: How many Democrat presidents and Republican presidents have you voted for?

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
4:29 pm

“i’ll guess I’ll stop talking since you’ve stopped answering.”

But here you are…..talking……..talking………

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
4:48 pm

Just meant I was done engaging you as long as you want to avoid direct questions. You’re a classic quitter…answer questions you think are the easy ones and dodge the ones you can’t intelligently defend. You argue like a 6 year old.

JATL

January 20th, 2011
4:49 pm

@Libs are idiots -thank you for proving my points. Not sure why it’s funny that Einstein was a liberal, but glad it amuses you.

David Duke was a Democrat in the 70s and 80s until 1988, then an “Independent Populist” and in the late 80s and early 90s became a Republican.

Robert Byrd, being dead and all, isn’t considered “current,” especially since he denounced the Klan and his involvement in 1952: “After about a year, I became disinterested, quit paying my dues, and dropped my membership in the organization. During the nine years that have followed, I have never been interested in the Klan.”

It’s apparent you care deeply about what a number of us think.

I have voted for one Republican president and two Democratic presidents.

@shaggy and diedre_NC -Thanks!

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
4:53 pm

“Just meant I was done engaging you as long as you want to avoid direct questions. ”

But here you are…..talking……..talking………

“You’re a classic quitter”

Oh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What ever will I do???????? LOL

“You argue like a 6 year old.”

Comeback fail, troglodyte.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
4:53 pm

“WRONG!!!!!! I never blamed Democrats. I blamed the guy who is a Democrat voter”

and then proceeded to say he’s an accurate representation of your average, left of center democrat….you speak with forked tongue, lib.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
4:54 pm

shaggy: “How does party affiliation play into a creepy, jerk that decided to kill a few countrymen?”

It’s completely irrelevant. It was another poster who suggested a political motivation.

“Frankly, I don’t care how the loser votes or his political beliefs, just take him and treat him like the rabid dog that he is. You do know what has to be done to a rabid animal, don’t you?”

I don’t think insanity can quite be compared with a rabid animal.

Besides, though I know it may not trouble you to recognize this, the policy you advance of treating the criminally insane along with the criminally depraved as a whole, as subject to extermination as so much vermin generally tends to be a trait of repressive and barbaric regimes. Regimes where in general political opponents of the rulers often happen to find themselves lumped in with those other categories of vermin as well. In other words, so much for your libertarian paradise of perfect law and order, if you get my drift.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
4:56 pm

“Not sure why it’s funny that Einstein was a liberal, but glad it amuses you.”

I was laughing because you totally contradicted yourself. Einstein wasn’t a lib. He didn’t want to kill unborn babies, didn’t believe in gay marriage and hated communism.

“David Duke was a Democrat in the 70s and 80s until 1988, then an “Independent Populist” and in the late 80s and early 90s became a Republican.”

And on Wikipedia, it states that he switched back to the Democrat Party.

“he denounced the Klan and his involvement in 1952:”

“I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side … Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.”

- Robert Byrd

“I have voted for one Republican president and two Democratic presidents.”

And that would make you a Democrat.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
4:57 pm

“and then proceeded to say he’s an accurate representation of your average, left of center democrat….you speak with forked tongue, lib.”

Oh goody, the troglodyte is calling me a snake! And yes, he is a democrat.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
4:58 pm

“It was another poster who suggested a political motivation.”

It was political. The guy was angry because Rep. Giffords voted against the health care bill.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
4:59 pm

“In other words, so much for your libertarian paradise of perfect law and order, if you get my drift.”

Do you even know what a Libertarian is? I’ve never heard of Libertarians wanting perfect law and order. That sounds like liberalism to me. Libertarians want less government. Libs want more of it.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
5:09 pm

“And yes, he is a democrat”

and someday you may come up with an answer to why that is relevant and how that impugns every other democrat…..just not today….or ever.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
5:13 pm

“and someday you may come up with an answer to why that is relevant and how that impugns every other democrat”

Never said anything about “impugning” every other democrat. You have this problem with “assuming” things which really makes you look small. All I wrote was that he is a registered democrat. With the media(Paul Krugman, Keith Olberman, Chris Matthews etc) claiming that Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck etc, somehow made him shoot Rep. Giffords when they didn’t even have the facts is really scary and stupid. Now that the facts have come out, they are all silent about it.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
5:21 pm

Agreeing with a statement like the Tucson shooter is an accurate representation of your average democrat isn’t impugning all democrats?

So if I said the guy who shot the abortion doc was an accurate representation of you, you’re answer is “si” because you oppose abortion and that doesn’t impugn your character…well in this case I get the feel you just might revel in that comparison.

If I say Tim McVeigh is an accuruate representation of you, you’re answer is “si” because you were both registered Republicans.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
5:23 pm

and yes I know I failed to use the spell check again…accurate is misspelled and I used the wrong “your”….

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
5:23 pm

“Agreeing with a statement like the Tucson shooter is an accurate representation of your average democrat isn’t impugning all democrats?”

Do you actually read what you write?

“So if I said the guy who shot the abortion doc was an accurate representation of you”

What abortion doc?

“If I say Tim McVeigh is an accuruate representation of you, you’re answer is “si” because you were both registered Republicans.”

1: Use spell check.
2: I’m a registered Libertarian, Gump.
3: You are a living breathing contradiction.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
5:24 pm

“and yes I know I failed to use the spell check again…accurate is misspelled and I used the wrong “your”…”

Your problem, not mine.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
5:25 pm

“I get the feel you just might revel in that comparison.”

Feelings get people in trouble. Your feelings are incorrect. But please, keep on trying to pigeon hole my character/politics.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
5:28 pm

“keep on trying to pigeon hole my character/politics”

don’t really need to try…you’ve managed to do that all on your own.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
5:29 pm

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

Wasting your time, friend.

Trolllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

Give it a break

January 20th, 2011
5:33 pm

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

It sounds like you’re angry that the truth came out about the Tucson shooter. Your side is always pointing the finger at Republican voters being “intolerant and mean-spirited” yet when the truth comes out about the shooter, your feelings got hurt. MSNBC spends a large amount of time demeaning and degrading the Tea Party, Sarah Palin etc yet people like you sit and laugh about it. You mock, name call and judge yet when your side does something detestable, you said absolutely nothing about it and make up excuses.

Here’s an example: Democratic Congressman Compares Republicans To Nazis On House

Your side has said absolutely NOTHING about this. What’s even more ironic is the fact that the comments on this website actually agree with the idiotic senator.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/19/steve-cohen-republican-nazis_n_811170.html

So, with that said, you need to seriously back off.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
5:34 pm

“don’t really need to try…you’ve managed to do that all on your own.”

Comeback fail, ma’am. Try again.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
5:34 pm

“Wasting your time, friend. ”

Sore loser much?

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
5:35 pm

“Trolllllllllllllllllllllllllllll”

I love it when high and mighty left wingers come on blogs and condemn name calling yet they turn around and do the exact same thing. Your special ed teacher must love you.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
5:40 pm

@give it a break…

find me one statement I made that said democrats were the good guys and republicans were the bad guys. It’s not there. The jist of my argument has been that to make the connection that the Tucson shooter represented in any way, shape, or form you’re average democrat is as off base as making the connection that Tim McVeigh represented in any way shape or form your average Republican. If anything, I’m defending both parties from unfair and illogical “blood libel”…the likes that lib has been making here.

I’m attacking libs hypocrisy…not political parties.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
5:41 pm

“the likes that lib has been making here.”

The guy is a registered democrat.

Nuff said.

Give it a break

January 20th, 2011
6:02 pm

“find me one statement I made that said democrats were the good guys and republicans were the bad guys. ”

You need to take the time to read instead of putting your foot into your mouth. I never said anything about good and bad. I made the point that you are defending one side which is overwhelmingly obvious in your rants. You’ve spent all day arguing in favor of liberals all while contradicting yourself. You’re no more of an independent than I am a muslim.

The facts are evident and they all point to the shooter being left wing. He didn’t like Bush, he was angry about Rep. Giffords voting against Obamacare and loved the communist manifesto. To me that screams left wing.

As for hypocrisy, you need to look in the mirror.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
6:13 pm

“The facts are evident and they all point to the shooter being left wing, He didn’t like Bush, he was angry about Rep. Giffords voting against Obamacare and loved the communist manifesto.”

These are lies – and I think they pretty much disqualify you for being taken seriously in a debate here.

Give it a break

January 20th, 2011
6:22 pm

“These are lies – and I think they pretty much disqualify you for being taken seriously in a debate here.”

1: His anger would well up at the sight of President George W. Bush, or in discussing what he considered to be the nefarious designs of government.

2: Among the books that he would later cite as his favorites: “Animal Farm,” “Fahrenheit 451,” “Mein Kampf” and “The Communist Manifesto.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/us/16loughner.html?_r=4&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=3&adxnnlx=1295272816-mzPTbiXmgfYK5d56DmiDjg

Give it a break

January 20th, 2011
6:28 pm

Left wing management

What’s worse? You calling me a liar or me proving you wrong? You’re the typical left wing half wit that goes around calling people stupid, liar, ignorant, hateful, intolerant etc…..

Your party got their butts kicked back in November and yet you losers, yes losers because your party lost in November, can’t admit defeat. The real underlying problem here is the fact that you can’t admit that this guy was a left wing nut job. The very day the shooting happened, Paul Krugman blamed the right for the shooting and when the evidenced surfaced, you clowns retreated faster than a Frenchman in war. I was reading a couple of Jay Bookman and Cynthia Tucker’s blogs and like you, both of them are in total denial about what is going on in America right now. You clowns constantly blame the right for everything even when your party had total control over congress and the White House.

Bottom line: I can/will run circles around you and your low IQ.

JATL

January 20th, 2011
7:35 pm

@libs:

You’re right in the fact that Albert Einstein wasn’t a liberal Democrat, he was a Socialist:

“I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate (the) grave evils (of capitalism), namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow-men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.”
Albert Einstein, Why Socialism?, 1949 [39]

And your Byrd quote is from 1944 -mine where he renounces the Klan is from 1952.

I’m a registered Independent, thank you. I vote for the candidate -not the party. I’m sure a concept involving actually thinking about, researching and listening to candidates on national and local levels blows your mind.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
8:12 pm

“You’re right in the fact that Albert Einstein wasn’t a liberal Democrat, he was a Socialist”

Yet he lived in America. Interesting.

“And your Byrd quote is from 1944 -mine where he renounces the Klan is from 1952″

Yeah, anything to get re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-elected.

“I’m a registered Independent, thank you.”

Voting Democrat over Republican 2-1 is not considered an independent in my book.

“I vote for the candidate”

Uh huh.

“I’m sure a concept involving actually thinking about, researching and listening to candidates on national and local levels blows your mind.”

Nice job at revealing who you really are. Independent my arse.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
8:59 pm

Points for JATL.

You’re right in the fact that Albert Einstein wasn’t a liberal Democrat, he was a Socialist:

“I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate (the) grave evils (of capitalism), namely through the establishment of a socialist economy,

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
9:43 pm

“Points for JATL. ”

So now Ms. Left wing is the blog ref?

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