Jared Loughner: What should colleges do with troubled kids? How much can parents and colleges work together?

I have spent much of the last week wondering if  Jared Loughner’s parents and the officials at Pima Community College could have done more – or if anything at all — to prevent the tragic killings in Tucson. I have been waiting for more information to come out about Loughner’s parents and the university before we talked about it. Finally, I am finding several good stories that give some insight into how much each party knew, how things were dealt with, how colleges in general deal with troubled students and how parents may miss all the warning signs.

First I wanted to share with you a bunch of great links to stories and some of the more relevant passages and then we can discuss. If you have the time (I know everyone is playing catch up from the snow) read the full articles. They are worthwhile and may give more insight than my quick paragraph pulls.

First some basic news on the story:

Update as of Tuesday: Rep. Giffords husband said he would be willing to meet with Loughner’s parents and doesn’t blame them.

“I don’t think it’s their fault. It’s not the parents’ fault,” Kelly told ABC. “You know, I’d like to think I’m a person that’s, you know, somewhat forgiving. And, I mean, they’ve got to be hurting in this situation as much as anybody.”

An early news story from when his parents first found out

“Sources told the Journal that Randy and Amy Loughner expressed a degree of shock in their discussion with the FBI, saying they were unaware of the degree of their son’s apparent mental problems.”


Now the big articles we really need to discuss:

This article from The Associated Press gets right to the issue at hand: How much should schools be telling parents about their kids if there is a problem? How much can they legally tell them (FERPA – remember that??) and when is it really a problem? I am pulling much of this story because it is really interesting.

From The Associated Press:

…With limited resources, complicated laws, more students in need of mental health help and echoes of the Virginia Tech massacre all part of the mix, schools face the conundrum of trying to create a safe environment without overreacting.

“What you’re really doing is deciding, ‘Where do I want to make the mistakes? Do I want to be over-broad in protecting civil liberties or over-broad in protecting safety?’” said Steven McDonald, general counsel for the Rhode Island School of Design and an expert on student privacy laws and campus safety. “And you’re never going to get it exactly right.”

McDonald said the pendulum has swung toward safety in recent years, but could swing back if schools overreach.

Many colleges and universities have started or strengthened threat assessment teams of administrators, counseling directors, campus police chiefs and others who meet regularly to field concerns about disturbing behavior and to investigate them.

But the issues are not always clear-cut. What should be protected as free speech? When does behavior cross the line from odd to potentially dangerous? When is suspension or expulsion warranted, or forced mental health treatment?

“There is a lot more awareness of the need to take action, but we are still constrained by considerations of civil liberties and the like,” said Ada Meloy, general counsel for the American Council on Education, an umbrella group for higher education.

“It’s not illegal to be a college student with mental health issues,” she said. “There are plenty of them out there. It’s very difficult to determine which ones merit being isolated from the college community.”

Studies show more students are arriving on campus with mental health issues. A recent American College Counseling Association survey found 44 percent of students who visit college counseling centers have severe psychological disorders, up from 16 percent a decade ago. One in four students is on psychiatric medication, compared to 17 percent in 2000.

Officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner was a student, released 51 pages of police documents depicting him at times as “creepy,” ”very hostile” and “having difficulty understanding what he had done wrong in the classroom.”

After five incidents that drew the attention of campus police — a rambling YouTube video that called the school a scam and associated it with genocide was the final straw — school officials told Loughner and his parents that to return to classes he would need to undergo a mental health exam to show he was not a danger. He never returned.

Some critics have said the school should have gone a step further and sought to force Loughner into counseling, which Arizona state law allows. But school officials have said their response was appropriate given the circumstances.

For years, many colleges said the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, or FERPA, handcuffed their ability to share information about troubled students with those who could help — including parents.

But McDonald, the privacy law expert, said FERPA is much less constraining than is often portrayed. A health and safety exemption allows for, say, faculty to share records with the dean of students, threat assessment teams or campus police relatively easily, he said. In 2008, Congress amended the law in responses to the Virginia Tech tragedy, making it clear schools would not be punished if they have a rational basis for taking action.

The Americans With Disabilities Act prohibits discrimination against persons on the basis of their disability, including mental health problems. But exemptions covering harm to self and public safety exist there, too.

“The law in these areas can be kind of complicated, and many campuses don’t have legal counsel or heavy-duty mental health expertise,” McDonald said. “So we’re being asked to do something that is really pretty hard.”

This is some really good insight into what a parent with a child who may have a mental issue is dealing with. The author does a good job exploring how may think it’s drugs – but their child is self-medicating their condition. Or with the parents they may actually seem normal and OK.  It is written by Pete Earley is the author of Crazy: A Father’s Search Through America’s Mental Health Madness.

From USA Today:

“But news reports said college officials warned the Loughners their son couldn’t return to school until he had had a mental health evaluation. He was scaring other students. Obviously, that’s a huge red flag — if it happened. Federal privacy laws limit how much information colleges can share with parents. Adult children are exactly that: adults. The first time my son and I visited a psychologist, my son turned his chair so that his back was facing the therapist and refused to speak. He didn’t think he was sick…”

“Remember, having a mental illness is not illegal. Nor can anyone, even a parent, force another person into treatment arbitrarily. All states require a person be dangerous to himself or others. What makes Arizona’s law more liberal is it also allows a person to be forced into treatment if he is “persistently or acutely disabled” or “gravely disabled.” Would Loughner have met those criteria? I doubt it, based on my experience and given that a police officer stopped him the morning of the shooting and let him go without noticing anything alarming about his behavior. Saying you are concerned about shrines with skulls in the backyard or strange writings is simply not enough in most courts.”

“A 2009 study by the National Alliance on Mental Illness found that Arizona’s mental health services were grossly inadequate. The report was riddled with complaints such as, “When I first tried to get help after attempting suicide, I was told that I wasn’t sick enough to qualify,” and, “There is a six to eight week wait to see (a psychiatrist) as a new patient.” Most states are plagued by long waiting lines because legislators have closed state hospitals and stripped treatment funds to balance budgets.”

“Perhaps the most hurtful comment leveled at parents is that they should have done a better job raising their child. Would you attack a parent’s child-rearing skills if his son or daughter had cancer? Mental illnesses are just that: illnesses.”

“Blaming parents is easy, but before you throw that first stone, try walking in our shoes.”

I have been thinking about the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA), the federal law that protects the privacy of students’ education records, all last week,  and I wondered if the college had been allowed to share anything to his parents about what went on at school. And according to that article in USA Today, it was allowed and according to the online FERPA definition it definitely was allowed. I bolded the pertinent parts! (I guess like the AP story says the universities are afraid of getting sued if they reveal too much or it wasn’t really a problem.)

About FERPA:

Recently many questions have arisen concerning the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA), the federal law that protects the privacy of students’ education records. The Department wishes to clarify what FERPA says about postsecondary institutions sharing information with parents.

What are parents’ and students’ rights under FERPA?

At the K-12 school level, FERPA provides parents with the right to inspect and review their children’s education records, the right to seek to amend information in the records they believe to be inaccurate, misleading, or an invasion of privacy, and the right to consent to the disclosure of personally identifiable information from their children’s education records. When a student turns 18 years old or enters a postsecondary institution at any age, these rights under FERPA transfer from the student’s parents to the student. Under FERPA, a student to whom the rights have transferred is known as an “eligible student.” Although the law does say that the parents’ rights afforded by FERPA transfer to the “eligible student,” FERPA clearly provides ways in which an institution can share education records on the student with his or her parents.

While concerns have been expressed about the limitations on the release of information, there are exceptions to FERPA’s general rule that educational agencies and institutions subject to FERPA may not have a policy or practice of disclosing “education records” without the written consent of the parent (at the K-12 level) or the “eligible student.”

When may a school disclose information to parents of dependent students?

Under FERPA, schools may release any and all information to parents, without the consent of the eligible student, if the student is a dependent for tax purposes under the IRS rules.

Can a school disclose information to parents in a health or safety emergency?

The Department interprets FERPA to permit schools to disclose information from education records to parents if a health or safety emergency involves their son or daughter.

Can parents be informed about students’ violation of alcohol and controlled substance rules?

Another provision in FERPA permits a college or university to let parents of students under the age of 21 know when the student has violated any law or policy concerning the use or possession of alcohol or a controlled substance.

Can a school disclose law enforcement unit records to parents and the public?

Additionally, under FERPA, schools may disclose information from “law enforcement unit records” to anyone – including parents or federal, State, or local law enforcement authorities – without the consent of the eligible student. Many colleges and universities have their own campus security units. Records created and maintained by these units for law enforcement purposes are exempt from the privacy restrictions of FERPA and can be shared with anyone.

Can school officials share their observations of students with parents?

Nothing in FERPA prohibits a school official from sharing with parents information that is based on that official’s personal knowledge or observation and that is not based on information contained in an education record. Therefore, FERPA would not prohibit a teacher or other school official from letting a parent know of their concern about their son or daughter that is based on their personal knowledge or observation.

So lots and lots to discuss here:

How much should schools be telling parents?

When should they step in?

Should the school have made him be evaluated not just put the onus on the parents?

Could the parents have done more? (I don’t think we know all the facts here yet.)

Do you agree with the USA Today article that parents could easily miss these signs or be tricked into thinking all is well?

How will these stories and these events affect your parenting now or later?

217 comments Add your comment

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
6:20 pm

“Again, you seem to be having trouble following my argument. I’m simply pointing out that just because someone loathes George W. Bush does not make them a leftie”

Interesting how you didn’t elaborate nor answer my question about linking the Mein Kampf to right wingers. People who “loathe” W are 9 times out of 10 gonna vote democrat. I don’t know a single right winger who loathes W.

“hyper-partisan position.”

Pot meet kettle.

“There are all kinds of reasons one can have for hating Bush, just like Obama, and they don’t all mean that the person is on the opposite side of the political spectrum. ‘

Oh, I’d say they would.

“Guessing my gender eh? Guess again. :)”

It was a joke, Forrest.

deidre_NC

January 19th, 2011
6:28 pm

@always a parent-my mother was bi polar and my 2 daughters are, so i know where you are coming from. there comes a time when a person just has to be responsible for what they do. even teens. parents can not be help responsible for everything a kid does. we dont know everything they do!! there is a term ‘normalcy bias’ this means that people can not believe the worst thing that can happen. we all are ‘guilty’ of this. it is normal for humans to have this normalcy bias. until the worst happens we really cant imagine it. now that the trade centers were blasted-we can imagine that-before it happened who could? when you live with a person day to day-their behavior becomes normal to you, to a certain extent. there is just no way we can blame those parents-or the school-not unless he actually told them he was going to go try to kill a bunch of people. then maybe some of the blame could be placed-even then- most humans would wonder and maybe worry-but maybe not believe him. (of course if he told his school or parents he was going to do this then yes they should have done something….but he didnt-he just acted weird. and how many know people who act weird? i know several.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
6:32 pm

“Interesting how you didn’t elaborate nor answer my question about linking the Mein Kampf to right wingers.”

But I told you I’m not interested in discussing the association between the Nazis and the American right (but if I did, I’m sure it’s not unheard of for Nazi sympathizing tendencies to find expression on the reading lists of a certain Glen Beck) as it’s not relevant in this case. All I want to say is that based on everything we know Jared Loughner is not a left wing nut.

“People who “loathe” W are 9 times out of 10 gonna vote democrat.”

Consistent with what I said. I didn’t say never. I said it’s possible. Awww whassamatter, still sore they’re beating up on your beloved W? Believe me, friend, it’s possible to oppose the guy and have nothing at all to do with left wing politics.

deidre_NC

January 19th, 2011
6:35 pm

and theresa i was glad you posted everything because i probably woundnt have clicked on the links. i have so much reading to do for school im not reading much that isnt required lol…i can see how some 9like tigewr at work –shame shame lol) would not like the abundance of info…we just all have to pick and choose.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
6:41 pm

“But I told you I’m not interested in discussing the association between the Nazis and the American right ”

So why did you make the claim?

“Nazi sympathizing tendencies to find expression on the reading lists of a certain Glen Beck) ”

Huh????????????????????

“All I want to say is that based on everything we know Jared Loughner is not a left wing nut. ”

“We?” From what I’ve read about him reading the communist manifesto and hating Bush, I’ve come to the conclusion that he IS a left wing nut.

“Awww whassamatter, still sore they’re beating up on your beloved W?”

Nope, W was a two term president. Doesn’t matter what you or I say about him. His legacy is being carried on by Obama.

We’re still in both wars, the Bush tax cuts were extended and Gitmo is still open.

“Believe me, friend, it’s possible to oppose the guy and have nothing at all to do with left wing politics.”

Ok.

Sandra

January 19th, 2011
7:06 pm

I think that it can be hard to decide if someone is mentally ill, has a disorder or just a little strange. I would think that it might even be a harder call to make for parents (and some grandparents) because they see their kids all the time.

Example: My husband and I noticed that one of our nephews seemed to be slightly off. We couldn’t put our finger on it and for a while put it down to him just being overly excited. When we finally decided to mention it we called hubby’s mother (the grandmother of the nephew) and told her. All hell broke loose, She saw us as being mean and jealous. A few years later, This nephew was diagnosed as having an attention deficit disorder. We noticed the changes because we didn’t see our nephew on a regular basis while nephew’s behaviour was normal to his parents and grandparents. They thought he was just being very naughty the entire time while we could see there was something wrong.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 19th, 2011
7:16 pm

John McCain hated Bush…..is he left wing?

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
7:22 pm

Libs are idiots: “Nope, W was a two term president. Doesn’t matter what you or I say about him. His legacy is being carried on by Obama.”

Well what do you know, we finally agree on something …

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
7:24 pm

“John McCain hated Bush…..is he left wing?”

Where is your proof that he hated Bush?

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
7:25 pm

“Well what do you know, we finally agree on something …”

Ok. Say hey to Bookman for me.

-LA

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 19th, 2011
7:29 pm

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1823695-3,00.html

one of the many articles detailing how those two really couldn’t stand each other.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 19th, 2011
7:30 pm

it was widely reported and accepted by both sides (conservative and liberal) that Bush and McCain, while in the same party, had deep misgivings for each other.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
7:41 pm

Sandra: “I think that it can be hard to decide if someone is mentally ill, has a disorder or just a little strange. I would think that it might even be a harder call to make for parents (and some grandparents) because they see their kids all the time.”

Mental illness is a very fluid concept nowadays, ranging from disabilities that are challenging but manageable all the way to the most devastating types of illnesses that make it impossible for a person to function, or in the worst cases, even make them very dangerous. How do you tell the difference between someone with a case of Aspergers or garden variety ADD and someone who’s in trouble? I guess you have to talk to a number of clinicians, who will all have a different take. But there are certainly some indicators of the most severe types of disturbance, having to do with a noticeable proclivity towards violence or aggression, hearing of voices, obsessive feeling of being manipulated or controlled by others, and certain types of language disturbances (strangely disjointed thought patterns, but most of all the sense of a struggle to patch together a ‘new’ or idiosyncratic language out of scraps of ‘ordinary’ language). Many of these things appear to have been manifested by Jared Loughner, but no one was prepared to recognize them or if they could recognize them, act on them. Hence the tragic outcome.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
8:23 pm

“that Bush and McCain, while in the same party, had deep misgivings for each other.”

So how does “misgiving’ equal hatred?

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
8:24 pm

“one of the many articles detailing how those two really couldn’t stand each other.”

I read nothing in that article that suggests that Mccain “hates” Bush. They may not like each other but I highly doubt that Mccain hates/hated Bush.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
8:25 pm

“but no one was prepared to recognize them or if they could recognize them”

That’s a flat out lie. From the NY Times piece to other reports, many people saw the signs.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
8:27 pm

“Hence the tragic outcome.”

Lib speak for “ban the guns.”

Quick note: Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the USA yet they have the highest gun crime rate in the entire country. Rather ironic if you ask me.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
8:55 pm

idiots Nothing on pay per view tonight?

Look, you’re in a little too deep here. If you don’t understand the meaning of the English idiom “was not prepared to”, which means could not, were unable to, then I really can’t help you.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
6:37 am

Wow Theresa. Were you writing a thesis on a punk conspiracy nut that should be quickly taken and 40 cent justice applied?
There is nothing to understand, except swift justice for all of the victims, and no mercy for the creep perpertrator. I couldn’t care less about this jerks mental state. I just wish I had been in that crowd, with just a little chance to place a well aimed round somewhere in that wackos body, and hope that he croaked slowly and painfully. Really, it’s too bad someone didn’t do that “after” they subdued him and put his “tortured mind” to sleep, like the rabid dog that he is.

JATL

January 20th, 2011
9:02 am

@shaggy -LOL! Agreed -I understand why it’s not a good idea to have widespread vigilante justice, but a little bit wouldn’t hurt now and then!

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
9:24 am

“idiots Nothing on pay per view tonight? ”

This is 2011, ma’am. Get with the program.

“Look, you’re in a little too deep here. ”

I love how left wingers always pretend that they are a dominate force when in reality they are nothing more than a small percentage of the population.

“If you don’t understand the meaning of the English idiom “was not prepared to”, which means could not, were unable to, then I really can’t help you.”

LOL!!!!!!! Pretending to be smart is not your strong suit.

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

January 20th, 2011
10:24 am

I have a new blog coming by noon (I think) —- I didn’t get it written last night so I am writing this morning. Sorry — I iwll post a link as soon as I have it up. — It is a good one!!

Sandra

January 20th, 2011
11:30 am

Left Wing Management,

The problem is noticing the signs and symptoms before someone has a complete break from reality. In this case, he was scaring the other students.

In the above blog, One of the ways he was described was creepy. I met a some very creepy people when I was a teen/young adult.

I once had a guy tell me that he had named his rifle after me. I personally thought that was a tad strange. Maybe all guys name their rifles after girls they have just seen in passing and then go to a party for the sole reason of letting them know this fact. I never dated a lot and might have missed this part of the dating ritual that requires the naming of weapons after the object of interest. Luckily my hubby didn’t and doesn’t own a rifle so he never got the chance to scare me off by naming a gun after me.

Another guy had decided that we were dating because I smiled at him while at my part time job. I was suppose to smile at him as I was taking his order at the time. The next thing I knew he was driving his family around to “view” me and calling my place of work to find out when I would next be in so that he could stand at the back and stare at me. It became so bad that people had to come outside with me at the end of my shift to make sure he wasn’t hanging out by my car. My parents found out when he managed to obtain my phone number and started heavy breathing calling. Any one who starts off a call with “Do you remember me? I drew you a picture.” is the definition of creepy.

I have also met some very hostile people and there are a lot of teens and young adults that have at least some difficulty in understanding what they have done wrong either in the classroom or at home. As far as I know none of these people that I have personally met have gone on to commit crimes or mass homicide.

How does someone know what is strange but mainly harmless or strange and dangerous? If people started reporting everyone they thought was creepy, hostile or in denial about being wrong, then almost everyone would be reported including themselves. The ability to read the signs is something that ordinary people do not have the skills for. How often do professionals miss the signs.

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

January 20th, 2011
11:46 am

new topic up !!

Did the snow days screw up your custody days??? Hearing from parents they lost time and will also lose time with school make-up days cut out winter breaks for some kids.
http://blogs.ajc.com/momania/2011/01/20/did-the-snow-days-throw-off-your-custody-days/

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
12:07 pm

Sandra:

Those are some creepy experiences.

“The problem is noticing the signs and symptoms before someone has a complete break from reality. In this case, he was scaring the other students.”

The line between someone with a creepy, but less dangerous obsession because you smiled at him and someone who’s a walking time bomb is difficult to call. But one thing that might make the difference for example is if the man in question became convinced you smiled at him because he saw you smile in a picture or because your name coincides with his or suggests ’smiling’, etc. In the former case you have obsession while in the latter case you likely have a case of psychosis. Not that psychosis means there will always be violence or that garden-variety obsession means there’s won’t be, but it’s an important distinction to make in assessing the danger.

In Loughner’s case, it’s telling that a fellow student said on day 1 that he was “mentally disturbed” and expressed the fear of violence. Her instincts, it turns out, were spot on and there must be some mechanism for giving these intuitions a hearing and not simply sweeping them under the rug.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
12:17 pm

Left wing management

I have another idea. Let’s publicly execute the creep and send a message that this IS what will happen if you cross the line, nutball or not.
Let’s do this next Tuesday. i have room on my calendar.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
12:19 pm

shaggy:

What’s the “line” ?

What’s a “nutball” ?

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
12:20 pm

LWM,

If you can’t answer either of those questions, I have nothing for you.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
12:31 pm

Shaggy:

C’mon, Einstein, you’re about as slow as ‘lib idiot.

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
12:35 pm

shaggy:

But to come back to your point, which amounts to “just exterminate the vermin”, what does that accomplish exactly? And would you include a con man like Bernie Madoff in your group of nutballs for ex?

C’mon now. If you don’t want to be ignored, try for some intelligence here. You own a computer so I know you’re capable of it.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
12:47 pm

LWM,

You are new around this blog, so I will forgive the attempts at trolling.

Let me break it down for a simpleton:
1) Murder is a fine example of crossing the “line”. I say kill em back, quickly, and with much public fanfare.
2) All you have to do to define “nutball” is to read practically anything about this creep.

I am a Libertarian, so I really don’t care if you are a nutball or not, as long as you keep your creepy, nutball self private and do no harm in public. If you cross that line, that public line, I have no mercy for you and don’t care about fixing you. Then, I just want you to pay and pay dearly.

Now, is that clear enough for an empty headed dimwit? Is it sweetie?

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
12:54 pm

@Libs are stupid..

“I read nothing in that article that suggests that Mccain “hates” Bush. They may not like each other but I highly doubt that Mccain hates/hated Bush.”

Somehow I have the feeling that if MY article would have read that McCain’s ” anger would well up at the sight of President George W. Bush” (which was certainly demonstrated when McCain told Bush to get his hands off him after their debate) you would have also come to the conclusion that you “read nothing in that article that suggests that Mccain ‘hates’ Bush”.

But that same sentence about the Tucson shooter makes him a hater of Bush and subsequently a subversive leftist.

Your article quote never said he hated bush. Said he got angry at the sight of him. YOU said he hated him. There are lots of right wingers who got angry with Bush, just at the sight of him. There were times that Rush even publicly criticized him. I imagine there have been times during Bush’s drinking years that Laura Bush got angry at the sight of him.

My point is exactly your point, and that is that one can dislike Bush and not automatically be a left wing lunatic.

I think your biases showed there.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:00 pm

@Libs….

So I’ll concede that the article I submitted never said that McCain hates Bush…

Your turn to show me where your article says the Tucson shooter hates Bush….

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
1:13 pm

shaggy: “I am a Libertarian, so I really don’t care if you are a nutball or not, as long as you keep your creepy, nutball self private and do no harm in public. If you cross that line, that public line, I have no mercy for you and don’t care about fixing you. Then, I just want you to pay and pay dearly.”

Ok, fair enough. I see no need for us to go back in forth any further. Suffice it to say, I find the libertarian view as it relates to law enforcement – as with just about every other domain of life – laughably simplistic and naive. I think it goes without saying that you don’t have the slightest interest in mental illness as a moral problem in its own right, and you either believe the mentally ill are subject to deterrence with harsh punishments, or, failing that, you throw up your hands and conclude they’re a plague to be exterminated. Both approaches amount to closing your eyes to the problem, whistling past the graveyard.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:22 pm

“laughably simplistic and naive.”

Irony: B Hussein Obama, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, throws a dinner for the president of China who threw the current Nobel Peace Prize winner in prison.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:24 pm

“So I’ll concede that the article I submitted never said that McCain hates Bush…”

So you admit defeat. Fine with me.

“Your turn to show me where your article says the Tucson shooter hates Bush….”

Anyone who believes that 911 was an inside job, reads the communist manifesto and guns down a group of people at a political rally is a hater. His friends are on record saying he hated Bush.

From the NY Times: He became intrigued by antigovernment conspiracy theories, including
that the Sept. 11 attacks were perpetrated by the government and that
the country’s central banking system was enslaving its citizens. His
anger would well up at the sight of President George W. Bush, or in
discussing what he considered to be the nefarious designs of
government.

Mccain didn’t hate Bush. Mccain never shot a politician in the head.

Check mate.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:30 pm

Hmmmmm…. I find it curious that with your penchant for citing your sources, you provided none to substantiate his friends “being on record”. Where’s the record?

To me it sounded more like the shooter hated the government, not Bush specifically.

Sounds like in your eyes people who hate the government today all just have some tea together and talk about how right they are and people who hated the last administration are idiots.

Hypocrisy like yours never ends in a checkmate.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
1:34 pm

LWM,

You are finally getting it. I hope these mentally deficient nutballs can be fixed before they do harm in public. I see gain for society in that.
However, yes, keep it simple “Libertarian Style”. I like that…”Keep it Simple, Libertarian Style” Then, maybe, just maybe, someone will be responsible when creeps like this commit their mayhem. Maybe the parents will look a little harder, be more involved in their childs life, so junior won’t end up being the next American-public-execution-Idol. It could just as easy be someone else raising the red flag before they act out, I don’t care. If nobody does, then, so be it. Guaranteed, they would never kill again…add rape, treason, and aggravated child molestation to that list too.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:42 pm

“Where’s the record?”

Ask the NY Times.

“Sounds like in your eyes people who hate the government today all just have some tea together and talk about how right they are and people who hated the last administration are idiots.”

Huh????????

“Hypocrisy like yours never ends in a checkmate.”

Poor crybaby.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
1:42 pm

Tiger,

I too read that quote from nutball’s friends, where he was purported to hate Bush. However, I have also known that there was no love between McCain and Bush, especially when Bush ran his dirty smear attack ads about McCain in the 2000 campaign and did everything possible to make McCain look too “unstable” to be president. There was only a tolerance of each other, once it was clear that McCain would be the 2008 nominee.
I would’t say they hate each other, but I highly doubt they would go fishing together either.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:43 pm

“To me it sounded more like the shooter hated the government, not Bush specifically. ”

He is a registered Democrat.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:45 pm

Hey lib….

you cited your one article from the NY times…had it in pretty quotes and everything…..

why is it so hard to find the other article that puts them on the record?

Forgive me for not just taking your word for it…..

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:48 pm

“he was a registered democrat”

what is your point? what connection are you attempting to make?

Left wing management

January 20th, 2011
1:49 pm

“He is a registered Democrat.”

Wrong.

C’mon now, get your facts straight.

But in the end, it doesn’t matter who he hated.

shaggy

January 20th, 2011
1:51 pm

Enter your comments here

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:51 pm

@Libs….

Timothy McVeigh was a registered Republican

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

“Anyone who believes that 911 was an inside job, reads the communist manifesto and guns down a group of people at a political rally is a hater’ ….. YOUR WORDS

Apparently Republicans can be JUST as screwed up as Democrats…….shocking.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:53 pm

“C’mon now, get your facts straight. ”

Are you illiterate?

“But in the end, it doesn’t matter who he hated.”

Sure it does. People died.

Libs are idiots

January 20th, 2011
1:54 pm

“Timothy McVeigh was a registered Republican”

David Duke was a registered Democrat as was George Wallace, Bull Conor and Charles Manson.
Your point?

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:56 pm

@libs

“Sure it does. People died.”

So by your own logic….the party with whom someone who commits an atrocity is registered to can, and should be, villified and impugned for the actions of that person.

Cool with me…please revisit Tim McVeighs registered party.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 20th, 2011
1:59 pm

@libs….

do you not find it just a bit hypocritical that you ask for my point of party affiliation when I present it, but you offer no explanation to your point when you make the same statement?

Not even a little bit?