Jared Loughner: What should colleges do with troubled kids? How much can parents and colleges work together?

I have spent much of the last week wondering if  Jared Loughner’s parents and the officials at Pima Community College could have done more – or if anything at all — to prevent the tragic killings in Tucson. I have been waiting for more information to come out about Loughner’s parents and the university before we talked about it. Finally, I am finding several good stories that give some insight into how much each party knew, how things were dealt with, how colleges in general deal with troubled students and how parents may miss all the warning signs.

First I wanted to share with you a bunch of great links to stories and some of the more relevant passages and then we can discuss. If you have the time (I know everyone is playing catch up from the snow) read the full articles. They are worthwhile and may give more insight than my quick paragraph pulls.

First some basic news on the story:

Update as of Tuesday: Rep. Giffords husband said he would be willing to meet with Loughner’s parents and doesn’t blame them.

“I don’t think it’s their fault. It’s not the parents’ fault,” Kelly told ABC. “You know, I’d like to think I’m a person that’s, you know, somewhat forgiving. And, I mean, they’ve got to be hurting in this situation as much as anybody.”

An early news story from when his parents first found out

“Sources told the Journal that Randy and Amy Loughner expressed a degree of shock in their discussion with the FBI, saying they were unaware of the degree of their son’s apparent mental problems.”


Now the big articles we really need to discuss:

This article from The Associated Press gets right to the issue at hand: How much should schools be telling parents about their kids if there is a problem? How much can they legally tell them (FERPA – remember that??) and when is it really a problem? I am pulling much of this story because it is really interesting.

From The Associated Press:

…With limited resources, complicated laws, more students in need of mental health help and echoes of the Virginia Tech massacre all part of the mix, schools face the conundrum of trying to create a safe environment without overreacting.

“What you’re really doing is deciding, ‘Where do I want to make the mistakes? Do I want to be over-broad in protecting civil liberties or over-broad in protecting safety?’” said Steven McDonald, general counsel for the Rhode Island School of Design and an expert on student privacy laws and campus safety. “And you’re never going to get it exactly right.”

McDonald said the pendulum has swung toward safety in recent years, but could swing back if schools overreach.

Many colleges and universities have started or strengthened threat assessment teams of administrators, counseling directors, campus police chiefs and others who meet regularly to field concerns about disturbing behavior and to investigate them.

But the issues are not always clear-cut. What should be protected as free speech? When does behavior cross the line from odd to potentially dangerous? When is suspension or expulsion warranted, or forced mental health treatment?

“There is a lot more awareness of the need to take action, but we are still constrained by considerations of civil liberties and the like,” said Ada Meloy, general counsel for the American Council on Education, an umbrella group for higher education.

“It’s not illegal to be a college student with mental health issues,” she said. “There are plenty of them out there. It’s very difficult to determine which ones merit being isolated from the college community.”

Studies show more students are arriving on campus with mental health issues. A recent American College Counseling Association survey found 44 percent of students who visit college counseling centers have severe psychological disorders, up from 16 percent a decade ago. One in four students is on psychiatric medication, compared to 17 percent in 2000.

Officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner was a student, released 51 pages of police documents depicting him at times as “creepy,” ”very hostile” and “having difficulty understanding what he had done wrong in the classroom.”

After five incidents that drew the attention of campus police — a rambling YouTube video that called the school a scam and associated it with genocide was the final straw — school officials told Loughner and his parents that to return to classes he would need to undergo a mental health exam to show he was not a danger. He never returned.

Some critics have said the school should have gone a step further and sought to force Loughner into counseling, which Arizona state law allows. But school officials have said their response was appropriate given the circumstances.

For years, many colleges said the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, or FERPA, handcuffed their ability to share information about troubled students with those who could help — including parents.

But McDonald, the privacy law expert, said FERPA is much less constraining than is often portrayed. A health and safety exemption allows for, say, faculty to share records with the dean of students, threat assessment teams or campus police relatively easily, he said. In 2008, Congress amended the law in responses to the Virginia Tech tragedy, making it clear schools would not be punished if they have a rational basis for taking action.

The Americans With Disabilities Act prohibits discrimination against persons on the basis of their disability, including mental health problems. But exemptions covering harm to self and public safety exist there, too.

“The law in these areas can be kind of complicated, and many campuses don’t have legal counsel or heavy-duty mental health expertise,” McDonald said. “So we’re being asked to do something that is really pretty hard.”

This is some really good insight into what a parent with a child who may have a mental issue is dealing with. The author does a good job exploring how may think it’s drugs – but their child is self-medicating their condition. Or with the parents they may actually seem normal and OK.  It is written by Pete Earley is the author of Crazy: A Father’s Search Through America’s Mental Health Madness.

From USA Today:

“But news reports said college officials warned the Loughners their son couldn’t return to school until he had had a mental health evaluation. He was scaring other students. Obviously, that’s a huge red flag — if it happened. Federal privacy laws limit how much information colleges can share with parents. Adult children are exactly that: adults. The first time my son and I visited a psychologist, my son turned his chair so that his back was facing the therapist and refused to speak. He didn’t think he was sick…”

“Remember, having a mental illness is not illegal. Nor can anyone, even a parent, force another person into treatment arbitrarily. All states require a person be dangerous to himself or others. What makes Arizona’s law more liberal is it also allows a person to be forced into treatment if he is “persistently or acutely disabled” or “gravely disabled.” Would Loughner have met those criteria? I doubt it, based on my experience and given that a police officer stopped him the morning of the shooting and let him go without noticing anything alarming about his behavior. Saying you are concerned about shrines with skulls in the backyard or strange writings is simply not enough in most courts.”

“A 2009 study by the National Alliance on Mental Illness found that Arizona’s mental health services were grossly inadequate. The report was riddled with complaints such as, “When I first tried to get help after attempting suicide, I was told that I wasn’t sick enough to qualify,” and, “There is a six to eight week wait to see (a psychiatrist) as a new patient.” Most states are plagued by long waiting lines because legislators have closed state hospitals and stripped treatment funds to balance budgets.”

“Perhaps the most hurtful comment leveled at parents is that they should have done a better job raising their child. Would you attack a parent’s child-rearing skills if his son or daughter had cancer? Mental illnesses are just that: illnesses.”

“Blaming parents is easy, but before you throw that first stone, try walking in our shoes.”

I have been thinking about the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA), the federal law that protects the privacy of students’ education records, all last week,  and I wondered if the college had been allowed to share anything to his parents about what went on at school. And according to that article in USA Today, it was allowed and according to the online FERPA definition it definitely was allowed. I bolded the pertinent parts! (I guess like the AP story says the universities are afraid of getting sued if they reveal too much or it wasn’t really a problem.)

About FERPA:

Recently many questions have arisen concerning the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA), the federal law that protects the privacy of students’ education records. The Department wishes to clarify what FERPA says about postsecondary institutions sharing information with parents.

What are parents’ and students’ rights under FERPA?

At the K-12 school level, FERPA provides parents with the right to inspect and review their children’s education records, the right to seek to amend information in the records they believe to be inaccurate, misleading, or an invasion of privacy, and the right to consent to the disclosure of personally identifiable information from their children’s education records. When a student turns 18 years old or enters a postsecondary institution at any age, these rights under FERPA transfer from the student’s parents to the student. Under FERPA, a student to whom the rights have transferred is known as an “eligible student.” Although the law does say that the parents’ rights afforded by FERPA transfer to the “eligible student,” FERPA clearly provides ways in which an institution can share education records on the student with his or her parents.

While concerns have been expressed about the limitations on the release of information, there are exceptions to FERPA’s general rule that educational agencies and institutions subject to FERPA may not have a policy or practice of disclosing “education records” without the written consent of the parent (at the K-12 level) or the “eligible student.”

When may a school disclose information to parents of dependent students?

Under FERPA, schools may release any and all information to parents, without the consent of the eligible student, if the student is a dependent for tax purposes under the IRS rules.

Can a school disclose information to parents in a health or safety emergency?

The Department interprets FERPA to permit schools to disclose information from education records to parents if a health or safety emergency involves their son or daughter.

Can parents be informed about students’ violation of alcohol and controlled substance rules?

Another provision in FERPA permits a college or university to let parents of students under the age of 21 know when the student has violated any law or policy concerning the use or possession of alcohol or a controlled substance.

Can a school disclose law enforcement unit records to parents and the public?

Additionally, under FERPA, schools may disclose information from “law enforcement unit records” to anyone – including parents or federal, State, or local law enforcement authorities – without the consent of the eligible student. Many colleges and universities have their own campus security units. Records created and maintained by these units for law enforcement purposes are exempt from the privacy restrictions of FERPA and can be shared with anyone.

Can school officials share their observations of students with parents?

Nothing in FERPA prohibits a school official from sharing with parents information that is based on that official’s personal knowledge or observation and that is not based on information contained in an education record. Therefore, FERPA would not prohibit a teacher or other school official from letting a parent know of their concern about their son or daughter that is based on their personal knowledge or observation.

So lots and lots to discuss here:

How much should schools be telling parents?

When should they step in?

Should the school have made him be evaluated not just put the onus on the parents?

Could the parents have done more? (I don’t think we know all the facts here yet.)

Do you agree with the USA Today article that parents could easily miss these signs or be tricked into thinking all is well?

How will these stories and these events affect your parenting now or later?

217 comments Add your comment

Hollywood cole

January 19th, 2011
1:59 pm

So…with all the experts reporting he was mentally deficient…we are gonna charge him with criminal murder and sentence him to jail instead of treatment? What is expected in a society where litigation rules? You cant even look at a student wrong…and they know that more than they know the lessons being taught..

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:03 pm

The guy was a left wing nut who enjoyed reading the communist manifesto. You might want to look at that before you talk about banning guns.

Logical

January 19th, 2011
2:05 pm

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

Why do you use three names?

Anyway, the sheriff, who should be fired by the way, knew about this guy way before the guy shot up the event. I blame people like him.

Logical

January 19th, 2011
2:07 pm

“did I write too much?? offer too many sources??? why no discussion on this?? I am shocked. ”

1: You did write a lot and you ask way too many questions.
2: There’s no discussion because normal people know exactly how to handle people like that.
3: SHOCKED!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m shocked that your editor doesn’t proof read your material before you post it.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:08 pm

Libs are idiots: “The guy was a left wing nut who enjoyed reading the communist manifesto. You might want to look at that before you talk about banning guns.”

Uh, actually you might want to try doing a little reading before repeating your right wing talking points. Didn’t you know he also listed Mein Kamp right by Communist Manifesto in his little ‘readling list’? Kind of blows your argument for ‘left wing nut’ out of the water right there, don’t you think?

No, Loughner was no left wing nut – any more than he was a right wing nut – and appears to have had little if any interest in politics generally speaking.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:10 pm

“Uh, actually you might want to try doing a little reading before repeating your right wing talking points. ”

I read it in the NY Times, Forrest.

“Didn’t you know he also listed Mein Kamp right by Communist Manifesto in his little ‘readling list’?”

Which is also left wing reading material.

“Kind of blows your argument for ‘left wing nut’ out of the water right there, don’t you think?”

Nope.

“No, Loughner was no left wing nut”

He hated Bush.

ALH

January 19th, 2011
2:12 pm

“Care to respond to the content of what I said?”

NO. Again, your “name” just has “looking for trouble” written all over it. Kind of like Ralph Carlisle!

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:13 pm

Left wing management

Are you one of those “Bookman” types who likes to argue with anyone and everyone?

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:17 pm

“Are you one of those “Bookman” types who likes to argue with anyone and everyone?”

Pretty much! :)

ALH: “NO. Again, your “name” just has “looking for trouble” written all over it. Kind of like Ralph Carlisle!”

Not sure how you see the issue of personal responsibility as relevant to the problem of how as a society to deal with people suffering from extremely severe or violent cases of schizophrenia.

Grad School

January 19th, 2011
2:18 pm

I agree with Libs …

Colleges and universities are ground zero for liberal hate. It is the 60’s all over again but with a biased media and the Internet being used to incite even more confusion.

Fred (with a capitol "F")

January 19th, 2011
2:23 pm

TWG – I didn’t think you posted too much as I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to go read it all. Too much to do these days catching up.

I fall on the side of personal responsibility. I don’t think we need to blame the school or the parents. I work at a larger higher ed institution and the chief of police told me twenty years ago that the kids coming in were much scarier than they were in the past. I guess it is a function of our society. I tend to believe the over the top rhetoric contributes (not causes) to a belief that some can take it into their own hands much like being exposed to violence and/or porn conditions you to accept the violence or porn easier. I think you can see this in society today. Along with the freedom to play the games/watch the slasher movies/watch the excessively violent porn comes the result that these types of behavior are more tolerated and accepted. Yet at the same time, we as a society as less likely to accept personal responsibility.

The man is clearly in hindsight seriously ill. I would be devastated if one of my family or friends were a victim but I would not blame the parents or the school. Sometimes no matter how much you don’t want to accept it, bad things happen and people die. I bet within a short period of time we will see lawsuits filed against the parents, the school and even the grocery store for allowing the event to take place with inadequate security.

Several people have mentioned it but we seem to do a really poor job as a society with our mentally ill citizens.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:24 pm

Libs are idiots: “Didn’t you know he also listed Mein Kamp right by Communist Manifesto in his little ‘readling list’? // Which is also left wing reading material.”

Come again?

This list in question – of which too much is probably being made anyway – was a list of ‘favorite’ reads, so I can’t really imagine a “left wing nut” citing that as a favorite.

Something tells me you’re someone who even if presented with powerful evidence that this guy suffered from severe schizophrenia and was not particularly interested in the political issues of the day, would still set about to twist the information to suit the right wing version. The right needs Loughner to have been a ‘left wing nut’, which is why you won’t consider any other possibility.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:27 pm

Grad School: “Colleges and universities are ground zero for liberal hate. It is the 60’s all over again but with a biased media and the Internet being used to incite even more confusion”

I agree with you the media is biased all right. With FOX news and the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity dominating the air waves, it’s very tough to get anything like a non-propagandistic account of the news or current issues any more.

Domino

January 19th, 2011
2:32 pm

This kid is from the ME generation. He most likely started out lacking any sort of personal responsibility and is very self centered. Lack of consequences starts the ball rolling to bigger things.

We all agree that we have a psycho on our hands with Loughner. Look at the basics – our level of personal accountability has sharply decreased as our level of serious mental illnesses and violence has increased.

It probably took years for him to get to this point, staying under the radar and undetected, building on the psychotic person he turned into. Just look at his mug shot. He is enjoying this notoriety.

ALH

January 19th, 2011
2:33 pm

“I agree with you the media is biased all right. With FOX news and the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity dominating the air waves, it’s very tough to get anything like a non-propagandistic account of the news or current issues any more.

Yep, the name “Left wing management” says it all…

ALH

January 19th, 2011
2:40 pm

“With FOX news and the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity dominating the air waves”

Left wing, then stop listening/watching if you don’t like the message. How is it that this programming dominates the airwaves when our nation is supposedly overwhelmingly democratic/liberal. Wouldn’t a liberal message be dominating and increasingly liberal society?
Please enlighten us on this phenomenon!

Grad School

January 19th, 2011
2:43 pm

I think you are agreeing with what you want to hear and I don’t think you read my post at all. The media is not biased to the right dude – just the exact opposite. Did you go to college?

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:44 pm

Domino: “This kid is from the ME generation. He most likely started out lacking any sort of personal responsibility and is very self centered. Lack of consequences starts the ball rolling to bigger things.”

I pretty much agree, but I don’t think it can entirely be put at the feet of the ME generation per se. We’ve had violent psychotics for a long time, but the challenges in the modern world of having a healthy ME, cultivating the formation of an individual who is independent but not asocial, motivated and with self-esteem but without pathological narcissism, and which has been problematic since at least the beginning of the industrial era, has only gotten more difficult with the breakdown of traditional structures of authority. The Baby Boom generation was already characterized as a Me generation, and there were certainly pathologies in that generation, but these problems have still not been properly understood, much less addressed, even as we continue to see new forms of pathology in the individual’s attempt to cope with the social world (bullying, boredom, lack of motivation, depression, aggression, etc.).

Dan Post

January 19th, 2011
2:49 pm

One thing the public needs to get through their head is that these are not kids! They are adults now and this isn’t elementary school it is college. These adults that can vote, join the military, etc. at some point have to take responsibility for themselves. Quit blaming the learning institution and thinking it is their constant responsibility to check up on Johnny or Susie. Parents, do your job if you love your child and look out for them, but don’t expect already over exhausted colleges to make right one more thing you did wrong before they even arrived at the institution. If they can’t cope or aren’t able to handle the stress of a college they should not be there in the first place.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:50 pm

“Pretty much! :) ”

Ok, so you’re basically saying that you have no life. :)

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:53 pm

“This list in question – of which too much is probably being made anyway – was a list of ‘favorite’ reads, so I can’t really imagine a “left wing nut” citing that as a favorite. ”

So………how do you come to the “conclusion” that the Mein Kampf is a “right wing” book?

“Something tells me you’re someone who even if presented with powerful evidence that this guy suffered from severe schizophrenia and was not particularly interested in the political issues of the day, would still set about to twist the information to suit the right wing version. ”

Something tells me that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about and therefore pull empty rhetoric out of your butt. I can decipher between facts and rhetoric and therefore come to my own conclusion.

“The right needs Loughner to have been a ‘left wing nut’, which is why you won’t consider any other possibility.”

Says the guy who’s own side blamed Sarah Palin for the shootings.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:53 pm

Grad School: The idea that the media has a left bias is a myth. I assume you’re in grad school from your name and from your naive confidence that “going to college” automatically makes one intelligent. If so, I’m sure that vouches for you being minimally intelligent, but unfortunately it doesn’t guarantee that you’re not naive and think that there really is such a thing as a ‘left wing’ media bias. But don’t take it from me, I’m just with the management. … :)

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:55 pm

Grad School

Lib professors can’t make a living in the real world so they end up getting tenure. Liberalism doesn’t do well in the real world.

See: B. Hussein Obama

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:55 pm

“With FOX news and the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity dominating the air waves”

LOLOL!!!!!! FOX is ONE news channel. Dude, please quit while you’re behind!

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:57 pm

ALH

Libs always complain about FOX yet they can’t stop watching/talking about it. I was watching Ed Schmuck on PMSNBC and the guy devoted 20 mins to his show talking about FOX and Sarah Palin.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
2:57 pm

Dan Post

Libs think that 26 year olds are kids. See: Obamacare.

Tiger Ochocinco Mellencamp

January 19th, 2011
2:59 pm

“This kid is from the ME generation…..He most likely started out lacking any sort of personal responsibility and is very self centered”…..wow…how long did you guys know him?

Can you tell us about the conversations you had with him and how he ticked in other ways…..OHHHHH wait a second…that’s all conjecture isn’t it?

You didn’t know him at all, you’re just presuming you’re correct because of your views on his generation as a whole. Ok…cool…just wanted to make sure i got it straight that you don’t know him or anything about him other than what you’ve read in the media of your choosing. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt though since the media as we know it is full of unbiased and accurate reporting. That guy MUST have shot people because he was from the ME generation. Reading the responses to this blog makes understanding life so much easier!

TWG….sorry for the slam…but it was pretty long….I have to cheat my visits of this blog during the work day…so dissertations are a little harder! No offense…I know you were excited about it!

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
2:59 pm

LIbs are idiots:

Suffice it to say, Mein Kampf was the manifesto written by the biggest right wing leader in history. It’s not on too many a left wing reading lists I know of, certainly not as a ‘favorite’, except perhaps as a study in political pathology.

“Says the guy who’s own side blamed Sarah Palin for the shootings.”

I didn’t say it and I thought it was a foolish and stupid thing for Moulitsas to say. I’m just as critical of people on my “side” who show a failure to grasp the serious problem of mental illness and to politicize it, just as I am of those I oppose politically. Palin is perhaps more guilty for degrading public discourse in our time more than any other single individual, but I would never claim that she was in any way responsible for the Arizona shootings.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:02 pm

“Suffice it to say, Mein Kampf was the manifesto written by the biggest right wing leader in history”

You’ve stupidly mixed up Riech Wing with Right Wing. Dude, quit while you’re behind! LOL

“It’s not on too many a left wing reading lists I know of”

Then again, the left despise Israel………

“I didn’t say it and I thought it was a foolish and stupid thing for Moulitsas to say.’

And Krugman, and Matthews and Shultz……….

“Palin is perhaps more guilty”

Then go arrest her, Gommer Pyle.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:02 pm

“Suffice it to say, Mein Kampf was the manifesto written by the biggest right wing leader in history. ”

Ladies and gentleman, I give you…….THE DUMBEST COMMENT OF THE DAY!!!!!!!!!

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Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:04 pm

Left wing management

Hitler was an occultist who hated and wanted to exterminate Jews. I’m guessing that you failed world history.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:04 pm

“The idea that the media has a left bias is a myth.”

Geez, does the stupidity ever stop?

Victoria Kamm

January 19th, 2011
3:14 pm

Thank you so much for this. I did a YouTube video about this and two comments were so mean spirited I couldn’t believe it. I have never met a parent who was laissez-faire about their child’s problems. It’s the lazy way to have an “explanation” so the haters can believe it can’t happen to them. Pitiful.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:35 pm

Left wing management

If you ever come back, you should check this out. Last week Obama called for “civility” and here we have a democrat calling republicans nazis.

No wonder America hates your party.

Democrat Compares Republicans to Nazis

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/01/abc-news-jonathan-karl-reports-the-newfound-civility-didnt-last-long-political-rhetoric-in-congress-doesnt-get-much.html

Stacey

January 19th, 2011
3:45 pm

@Tim…Well said. When I was a growing up (I’m 40) if a kid was interested in guns, explosives, etc, most people just expected him to grow up and join the military. The kid who asked a lot of questions about disease and death was the one we thought would grow up and cure cancer or become a great scientist. Nowadays, it’s a sign that these same kids are going to grow up to be psychopaths and terrorists. How do we know the difference?

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
3:48 pm

“Nowadays, it’s a sign that these same kids are going to grow up to be psychopaths and terrorists.”

So, because a kid likes guns they will automatically grow up to kill people???????????

“How do we know the difference?”

Behavior.

Denise

January 19th, 2011
4:28 pm

As some of you know, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder at age 22 when I was in college. Over 18, out of parents home, so I was on my own except for the help of my friends. Not only did my parents not “help” (my mama tried but her solution was for me to quit school – great, make me feel like a failure on top of a nut), family acted like I was in the “nothing is wrong with you” category. So you can say all day every day that parents’ influence could have made a difference but there is no guarantee that the influence would be toward accepting their condition and move toward healing. No, my parents were not responsible for me but I sure would have liked to get some support. Not all parents know how to handle serious issues in their own lives much less in their children’s lives.

And no, the school is not responsible to make people get mental health help but offering access is a good idea.

Stacey

January 19th, 2011
4:34 pm

@Libs are idiots…Although I believe you are trying to be nasty and sarcastic, that’s the point I’m trying to make. What was viewed as perfectly normal and a sign of intelligent curiosity (and still is by many, including me) people now say are signs of trouble that any caring parent, teacher, principal, etc should have recognized and gotten help for BEFORE the behavior took place.

Aquagirl

January 19th, 2011
4:36 pm

I understand you can’t force people into counseling, there’s a lack of resources anyhow, blah blah blah….what is incredible to me is that he could pass a background check and buy a gun. I’m all for the 2nd Amendment but if you’ve been banned from places because you’re scary and show clear evidence of mental illness, you should not be able to purchase a gun. Period. And that’s no fault of the college.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
4:36 pm

“Although I believe you are trying to be nasty and sarcastic, that’s the point I’m trying to make. ”

I was being sarcastic, not nasty.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
4:38 pm

“what is incredible to me is that he could pass a background check and buy a gun.”

The sheriff has yet to release documents about the killer. What’s he hiding?

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
4:47 pm

Libs are idiots:

Not sure what you’re squawking about. We got on to titles like Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf because you were off on a tear repeating the right wing lie that Loughner was a left wing nut, which is nonsense. So, by that logic, we can just as well conclude he’s a right wing nut, as Mein Kampf was also on the list.

So in other words I’m making a point by illustrating the weakness of your logic.

Follow me, or you need me to slow down?

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
5:07 pm

“Not sure what you’re squawking about. We got on to titles like Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf because you were off on a tear repeating the right wing lie that Loughner was a left wing nut, which is nonsense.”

He hated Bush. His favorite books were left wing leaning books. You were saying?

“Mein Kampf was also on the list. ”

I don’t know any right wingers who have ever read that book.

“So in other words I’m making a point by illustrating the weakness of your logic.”

You’re not smart are you.

“Follow me, or you need me to slow down?’

You have the IQ of a carrot.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
5:09 pm

Left wing management

Please show me anything that links Hitler to the political right in this country. You seem to think that Reich and Right are the same thing which leads me to believe that you never took a history class.

The guy hated Bush. Can’t get anymore left wing than that.

Now, as far as slowing down, I think you fell off the short bus years ago.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
5:23 pm

Libs are idiots: “The guy hated Bush. Can’t get anymore left wing than that.”

I haven’t even heard this reported and I’ve read a good bit about the individual. Sure you’re not making this up?

So since when does hating Bush translate to being left wing? Such arguments are making me wonder about you idiots. Reminds me of Lil Barry Bailout over in the Bookman forum. Are you the same guy by any chance?

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
5:38 pm

“I haven’t even heard this reported and I’ve read a good bit about the individual. Sure you’re not making this up? ”

“He became intrigued by antigovernment conspiracy theories, including that the Sept. 11 attacks were perpetrated by the government and that the country’s central banking system was enslaving its citizens. His anger would well up at the sight of President George W. Bush, or in discussing what he considered to be the nefarious designs of government. ”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/us/16loughner.html?_r=4&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=3&adxnnlx=1295272816-mzPTbiXmgfYK5d56DmiDjg

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
5:42 pm

“So since when does hating Bush translate to being left wing? ”

Oh I don’t know……might have to do with all the rhetoric about how the left wanted to see Bush dead. A left wing director made a movie about Bush getting shot. If you want, I can post some pics of left wing protesters holding up signs about Bush.

“Such arguments are making me wonder about you idiots.”

What arguments? I have actual facts/pictures/remarks about the left hating Bush.

“Reminds me of Lil Barry Bailout over in the Bookman forum.”

You remind me of Granny Godzilla.

“Are you the same guy by any chance?”

Nope, I left Bookman’s blog looooooooooooooooooong ago. Got tired of the hate speech by the left and Bookman’s tolerance for it.

Libs are idiots

January 19th, 2011
5:44 pm

“Such arguments are making me wonder about you idiots. ”

I find it ironic that you’ve pretty much labeled the right as “mean spirited” etc and you just called me an idiot.

You ma’am, are one of the reasons people stay away from Bookman’s blog. The only people who live are his little minions like Granny Godzilla, AmVet, Kamchak etc… People like that live on that blog 24/7 like they own the place.

I’d be willing to wager a little money that most of them are unemployed, live off of welfare or sit in their local library blogging all day.

Left wing management

January 19th, 2011
6:05 pm

““So since when does hating Bush translate to being left wing? // Oh I don’t know……might have to do with all the rhetoric about how the left wanted to see Bush dead ”

Again, you seem to be having trouble following my argument. I’m simply pointing out that just because someone loathes George W. Bush does not make them a leftie, which I’m sure you would see if you would only step back from your hyper-partisan position. There are all kinds of reasons one can have for hating Bush, just like Obama, and they don’t all mean that the person is on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

“You ma’am, are one of the reasons people stay away from Bookman’s blog.”

Guessing my gender eh? Guess again. :)