How are your kids’ class sizes this year?
Last May the flood gates were thrown open when the Georgia State Board of Education voted that in this current economic crisis school districts could adjust their class sizes however they saw fit.
From Maureen Downey’s May 23 Get Schooled Blog:
“Described as an emergency response to a worsening financial climate, The 9-2 vote means that Georgia school districts can raise class size by 5five, 10, 15 students — or as many students as they choose — without seeking a waiver from the board or the Department of Education.”
“The vote essentially guts the prevailing state rules that mandated 23 students or fewer in k-3 and 28 in grades 4-8.”
Maureen went on to interview the districts about their plans after the vote. Here’s what they told her they were planning to do as of May:
“* City of Atlanta: “The district’s budget for FY11 has already been developed and approved by the School Board. It includes slight increases in average class sizes for all grade levels, but the resultant class sizes remain within state limits. The district does not anticipate having to use the state’s recent lessening of class size restrictions option at this point,” said spokesman Keith Bromery.
* Clayton County: “As of today, the only class-size change Clayton County Public Schools is planning to implement for 2010-11 is increasing our kindergarten class size from 23 to 25 students. Each kindergarten classroom will be staffed by a teacher and a paraprofessional,” said Clayton schools spokesman Charles White.
* Cobb County: “In Cobb, we anticipated the need to increase class sizes for the coming school year and planned accordingly by seeking waivers last fall and earlier this spring,” said Cobb schools spokesman Jay Dillon. “We do not anticipate a need to increase class sizes further than what we’ve already requested. In fact, after a preliminary review of our current status and the allotment of teachers for next school year, we are confident that the worst fears about overflowing classrooms will not happen in Cobb. Many classes will see a marginal increase of two or three, and in some cases four of five students, but we don’t foresee any overflowing classrooms or unmanageable situations.”
* DeKalb County: “Our budget is already set, and we are raising class sizes by two students,” said DeKalb schools spokesman Dale Davis. “We will take this new state policy under advisement.”
* Fayette County: “We will not take advantage of the new rule for increasing class sizes. We have already set our class sizes to the rule that was implemented last year,” said Fayette schools spokeswoman Melinda Berry-Dreisbach.
* Fulton County: “We have no plans to go to the board and say that we have been given carte blanche now and let’s raise class size even higher,” said Fulton schools spokeswoman Allison Toller. Fulton parents can expect class sizes of 23 or less in the early grades and 30 students starting in fourth, she said. However, if the system was faced with one or two students arriving last minute and pushing class sizes beyond those limits, Toller said Fulton then might take advantage of the new flexibility.
* Gwinnett County: Under a flexibility contract, Gwinnett is not affected by the state board policy as it sets its own class sizes. (The system has announced plans to raise class size next year by one student.)”
So I want know how have the schools done when left to their own devices to set class sizes? Are your child’s class sizes larger than last year? Are they out-of-control large? Are they equivalent to whatever you district is quoted as saying above? If large are they in the process of hiring more teachers to take the overflow?
We have lots of teachers in our community so I am very interested to hear from them what is the optimum class size for the different grades? (I’m sure what works for K is very different than what works for fourth or seventh or eleventh.) At what numbers should parents worry that their kids’ classes are just way too big?
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
85 comments Add your comment
G'Vegas Dawg
August 19th, 2010
1:12 pm
Thankful! Thankful for the fact that I have a job in a title one school. Thankful for the fact that my parents changed jobs and got me out of a private school. Thankful for the education that I got from a public school that goes way beyond what any textbook could ever teach. Thankful for the opportunity to attend a private school AND a public school so that when my children get to school age I won’t wrestle with the delima of private vs. public. Bitter, no. Thankful, abosolutly!!
Curious
August 19th, 2010
1:19 pm
@ G’Vegas Dawg – are you from G-Vegas or GA?
FCM
August 19th, 2010
1:38 pm
Our class size is about 20 kids.
related topic—MJG you often point out tht those without children do not have the same perspective (on this blog/topics) as those with. Different sidewalk etc.
SO my question is does anyone find that whether or not the teacher is a parent makes a difference? How about if the teacher is fairly “new” (ie early 20s not married not kids) vs. more established (ie 30s and married no children)?
JJ
August 19th, 2010
1:42 pm
My cousins were from a very wealthy family. They were given the best of everything. They went to THE BEST private schools. They drove high end vehicles their father bought for them. My cousin totalled 3 cars before I got my first one, and I am a year old than he is. They were handed EVERYTHING on a silver platter. It was very tough watching this as we were all growing up.
My brother and I came from a very wealthy family. We worked for everything we wanted, nothing was handed to us. We were taught to work for what we wanted, so we would appreciate it more. I bought my first car with my own money, so did my brother. My first car was a 10 old used vehicle. We went to the local Public Schools, and we both went to college, but I didn’t finish.
One cousin is now dead from a drug overdose at age 20. The other cousin has never been able to hold down a job, maintain a home, be a dad to his kids, etc. He is an alcoholic and lives off the taxpayers, and has attempted suicide more than once.
My brother is a US Marshall, and was with DeKalb County Sheriff’s Department for over 24 years. He is divorced with two children, whom he is very devoted to, one in college, one in Middle School. He owns his own home, 14 years now, and has worked since the age of 14.
I have been on my current job for 18 years now, and have worked since I was 14 years old. I am a single parent with a child in college, I have purchased two homes with my own money in the last 16 years. I have paid cash for all my vehicles. I pay my bills on time, and do not have any debt.
Now, tell me who got the better education? I’m pretty sure it was my brother and myself, in the public schools. We are both raising our kids, paying our bills, and making our way in this world. I believe we got the better “education”.
TechMom
August 19th, 2010
1:47 pm
@JJ, I would contend that the better education you got came from your parents.
LWA
August 19th, 2010
1:50 pm
My oldest is in High School and due to budget cuts, our elective class selection is very small. We had a hard time finding elective classes.
My 5th grader has 25 in her class. 28 were in here 4th grade class last year.
SJ
August 19th, 2010
1:55 pm
GVD – Too bad that the education you’re so thankful for didn’t come with better spelling instruction.
Hey, G-Vdawg...
August 19th, 2010
2:02 pm
…You are not entirely correct in your analysis as there too many private schools in the Atlanta area to make the broad band blanket assertions that you make;
HOWEVER, the analysis is correct if one’s kid(s) go to one of the following schools: Westminster, Lovett, Marist, Pace Academy, Weslyan, Paedia, The Galloway School, Blessed Trinity, Kings Ridge, and Woodward Academy (College Park and Alpharetta). Most other private schools have a mix of have’s and wanna haves, and that is why your blanket statement is not exactly true…
TechMom
August 19th, 2010
2:02 pm
@FCM – I totally agree with your statement about teachers being a parent making a difference. I am NOT saying that teachers who don’t have kids aren’t good teachers.
It has been MY experience that the teachers and administrators who I have had to talk to over the years about the boy’s behavior, performance, grades, etc. were from the teachers/admins that didn’t have kids. I think you learn to deal with kids on such a different level when you have one in your house day-in and day-out that it helps you to deal with them, especially in terms of discipline, in the classroom. They just give you perspective.
Example, one of my son’s 8th grade teachers who was in her 2nd year of teaching (so maybe 24, not married and no kids), constantly called & emailed me because of his behavior. On one of the calls she was upset because he was chewing gum repeatedly in her class. At that point, I almost had to force myself not to laugh because a teacher was calling my house about my 8th grader chewing gum because she couldn’t figure out a way to enforce her rule. (Mind you, I did punish him when he got home for being disrespectful and not listening to her rather than for gum chewing though). The gum chewing was just the by-product of her not being able to manage and control her class. As it turned out, that was her method for dealing with discipline issues (calling home) because I found out throughout the year that almost every other student in her classes had gotten a phone call home at some point. Hopefully by now she’s learned how to manage her class better.
That being said, 2 of my son’s favorite teachers of all time were young teachers who did not have kids at the time they were his teachers. Rather they were fun, energetic, engaging teachers who involved their students in the learning process rather than spewing facts and expecting regurgitation.
FCM
August 19th, 2010
2:12 pm
JJ I need to meet your brother ;)
motherjanegoose
August 19th, 2010
2:17 pm
LOL…FCM….I ABSOLUTELY THINK TEACHERS WHO HAVE PARENTS ARE USUALLY BETTER AT THEIR JOB
I have been shot down by some here that find my ideas absurd, in that having YOUR own children who live in your house 24/7 changes the way you look at some things. OH WELL. Call me after you have a newborn in your house for 6 weeks and cannot remember when you have slept though the night or the last time you brushed your teeth. We will talk then.
I cannot give you a credible opinion about living in Maui…I have visited 3 times but never lived there! “Visiting” with children is not the same as being a parent…to me.
TechMom, your last paragraph is golden. There is a fine line between older crusty teachers like me, who have oodles of experience but are losing energy as quickly as we are gaining gray hair and those young vivacious teachers who exude enthusiasm and are ready to take on all challenges.
There needs to be a balance between experience and enthusiasm and my hat is off to any principal who is able to hand select teachers to create this balance in their school.
If I had to choose between enthusiasm and experience…that would be a tough call. Younger teachers can often go home to a quiet house, all alone and there is something to be said for nightly peace and respite…:) For older teachers: this is not their first rodeo!
motherjanegoose
August 19th, 2010
2:24 pm
OOOPS ARE PARENTS…sorry!
FCM
August 19th, 2010
2:31 pm
MJG I don’t know that I ever had a teacher tell me they did not have parents when they were growing up….but I think that might be a different angle too! ROFL.
I knew what you meant.
JJ
August 19th, 2010
2:38 pm
There’s a support group waiting to happen – Teacher’s without Parents…..
FCM
August 19th, 2010
2:44 pm
I only ask b/c while I find that HB and others on here do have interesting insight….I find I have little patience with a teacher who has no children being so “superior” as she tells the parents things via email (ex “This Friday is picture day. So make sure to dress your child nicely.” Really? I though the Greatful Dead shirt would be a good idea so glad you told me they should be dressed nicely!). There was the one who called to tell me (After the fact) that she had told the child the punishment would be no TV that weekend so she hoped I would back her up! WTH? I asked her what gave her the right to decide what the punishment would be in MY HOUSE. (She was 50 and never had a kid). At the school we are in now they seem to have a common sense approach to it…if the child forgets to do the homework they miss recess. (Novel idea! I suggested that at the old school and was told that might make the kid feel embarassed!)
JJ
August 19th, 2010
2:47 pm
Oh good God, we certainly don’t want to embarrass a child that didn’t do his job……
JJ
August 19th, 2010
2:50 pm
I’ve also heard, that teachers are using purple pens now to make corrections. Apparently Red was to harsh and it hurt the little kiddies feelings…..OH MY GOD.
Curious
August 19th, 2010
3:07 pm
I guess G’Vegas skipped. His/her moniker is suprising and why I am curious … Ron Clark went to college in G-Vegas (Greenville, NC) at East Carolina University (originally founded as a teacher’s college). The Dawg part is interesting as well because when you combine the two – G’Vegas is always a top “party school” according to Playboy & UGA tops another recent “party” poll. Either way, he is giving both places a bad rap for his absurd comments. :(
HB
August 19th, 2010
3:45 pm
“I find I have little patience with a teacher who has no children being so “superior” as she tells the parents things via email…”
But would you have any more patience with a teacher who has children being “superior” like that, FCM? I think it’s really obnoxious either way. I’m also not sure a nonparent teacher is more likely to do something as stupid as determining what punishment should be in your home than a parent teacher. That takes a certain cluelessness/lack of understanding of what’s appropriate that I don’t think having children would cure. Assuming this sort of extreme has been rare for you, maybe it’s just a coincidence that this idiot happened to be childless?
motherjanegoose
August 19th, 2010
4:00 pm
FCM…I taught for 5 years before I had my own children and THOUGHT I knew it all. OH YEAH!
The lights went on after I had my own. Each day is a new adventure and while some of us know a lot…no parent/teacher knows it all!
mom2alex&max
August 19th, 2010
5:11 pm
I prefer teachers that do not have children. They seem to get more attached to the kids; or at least that was the way it was with my sons’ teachers.
And on topic: at my East Cobb elementary classroom sizes remained pretty much the same as last year.
Paige
August 19th, 2010
5:15 pm
My 10th grader has 17-18 in core classes, 15 in a computer class and 30 in PE. He has so many elective choices that he didn’t know what to choose. I think smaller classes are better for younger students, class size should increase as they get older. I remember walking into a freshman class at UGA in 1989 and there were at least 100 people in there if not more. I thought that was too many people.
Mattie
August 19th, 2010
5:18 pm
Back to the original topic… 26 in my neighbor’s 4th grade class in No. Fulton. There is one aide who will divide her time between two classes.
FCM
August 19th, 2010
5:26 pm
HB that is why I asked. It was 2 different schools and 2 different teachers…both of whom happen to be childless. On the other hand I have never had a teacher that had children say something like that. They tend to be more empathetic maybe?
I am not asscerting they are causative…I was merely curious.
HB I still value your input…and I have found I value MJG’s too. It doesn’t bother me at all that one you has children and one doesn’t.
Although, your probably right the cluelessnes and the tone used is probably the thing that gets me most. Certainly we know from here we all fall victim to “printed tone” from time to time :) And it usually gets on someone’s nerves.
motherjanegoose
August 19th, 2010
5:30 pm
@mom2alexandmax…that is very interesting…I did not find that with my own children. My children did both have the same 3rd grade teacher and she was THE BEST. She was not married and did not have kids. I worked with some aides who did not have their own children and the mom types were generally more nurturing; however, I have known a few unmarried men Kinder teachers who were amazing. The boys really rose the their expectations and the girls adored them. Who knows?
HB
August 19th, 2010
6:05 pm
I see what you’re saying, FCM. I haven’t had experience with a teacher calling me about a kid, but among the many teachers I’ve worked with, I’ve known a small handful (with kids and without) who I could see overstepping their bounds like that. I think it’s probably less an empathy thing related to having kids than a general lack of social skills/odd personality thing. The individuals I’m thinking of who I know personally mean well, but in a lot of situations (not just relating to students/families) just don’t seem to have a good sense of personal boundaries and what is and isn’t appropriate. I wonder if that was the issue with the teacher that set the home punishment for you child.
And thanks for saying you value my childless input :). You’ve never made me feel otherwise, and I really do appreciate that.
motherjanegoose
August 19th, 2010
6:44 pm
@Paige, my daughter just told us that she has 300 in Freshman Chemistry @ UGA but her other classes are 20-30!
public school kid, private parent
August 19th, 2010
7:51 pm
Can we try to not bash parents for making whatever choice it was they did for their kids education (either going out of cluster, out of district, homeschooling or private school)?
I pay my taxes and want very strong public schools for my town, my county, and the greater Atlanta area, but while I’m willing to work to help as much as I can, I am not ready to sacrifice my child’s education or safety for it at this point in time.
Plus, there are often other reasons to not do public school (personally I like the religious background of my kids’ school and how it does make them realize that while they are fortunate they have a responsibility to those less so).
BlondeHoney
August 19th, 2010
8:33 pm
@ public school kid, private parent I agree totally. I was a public school kid and my two boys were private until middle school then went public, and homeschool was never an option. Everyone needs to find what fits best for them, however the key to scholastic success is to be involved in your child’s education, whatever route you choose. Private school was right at the time, and public school was right also at the time (my boys attended oustanding magnet programs in South Florida). In fact, it was my youngest who made the decision to attend public; he made it clear he wasn’t being challenged by his private school and wanted to take his education to the next level…and he was a 6th grader at the time. As some of you already know, he graduated with his degree in Chemical Engineering from FSU and is now an Ensign in the US Navy (yes i am SOOO proud) :)
Teacher, Too
August 20th, 2010
7:30 am
I can tell you that some schools (maybe only the school I’m going to describe) misuse allotments. At one middle school, two teacher allotments are being used for a math coach and an academic coach. Neither of these “coaches” teaches one student. In fact, no one knows what these two people do all day long. When classes are 32-35+ kids in a class, why are two teacher allotments being used for “coaches” who do not interact with kids? These “coaches” aren’t in the classroom co-teaching. The math “coach” hasn’t attended the county level math meetings- so how can this person possibly be the math “coach”?
It’s a crying shame when administrators make decisions that are not in the best interest of children. Instead of lowering class size by using teacher allotments for actual TEACHERS who TEACH children, there are two coaches who do… no knows what they do.
mom to four
August 20th, 2010
8:56 am
MJG – my children attend private school. The youngest 2 are in Catholic school (thru grade 8) and the high schooler in a private, secular school. The enrollment at the Catholic school has increased; I think they are at capacity in most classes. My daughters’ classes at the Catholic school has about 17-18 in each class. My son’s school has lost some students this year compared to last year. I think the high tuition in this tough economic environment is the cause for the loss in students. His class sizes are small, no more than 20 in each class and only 6 in his AP Chemistry class.
Some of the people commenting about lack of sacrifice of private school families and snobby private school kids are generalizing and stereotyping out of ignorance, anger or jealousy. While we don’t sacrifice in the sense that we have to have 2 jobs, we do from the standpoint that we don’t have the $400k house or brand new cars. We made and still make choices which include foregoing the huge house in order to afford private school. I do know many families at both schools who sacrifice tremendously to send their children to the school. These families are working 2 jobs, never going on vacation, cutting expenses however they can. The commenters do these families a disservice by making comments on issues they know nothing about. No one knows the sacrifice in another’s home. Yes, there are wealthy families who are snobs but this occurs in private and PUBLIC schools.
DB
August 20th, 2010
8:42 pm
@G’V: I am generally pretty polite here, and I am usually the one telling folks to “play nice”. However, I found your diatribe on the demographics of private school kids to be offensive, mean-spirited and downright ignorant.
My kids went to the same private Christian school for 13 years each, K-12. We are not wealthy by ANY stretch of the imagination. As self-employed parents, some years are good and some years stink. The school stuck by us through the lean years. While several of my kids’ friends had luxurious homes in golf-course communities, a significant proportion of us were driving 10 year old cars and vacationing at Grandma’s instead of Italy.
All of the teachers were extremely well qualified, and there were several who had earned the right to be called “Dr.” because of their Ph.D’s. To issue a blanket statement that teachers at private schools are undereducated simply because your parents chose to send you to a substandard school is stunning in its narrow-mindedness. Growing up, I went to a well-regarded high school in Virginia, and NONE of my teachers had Ph.Ds. My daughter had two her senior year, and all but one had at least a masters. Heck, she had more Ph.D’s her senior year in high school than she did her first year in college, when she was stuck with several teaching assistants!!
@Mary: You pretty much find whatever you expect to find. Since you hate private schools, of course you hate the one near you, and find reasons to look down on them. Going to a public school does NOT give a child a discernable edge in manners. I’d rather see kids in uniforms than see them slouching around in pants around their knees, skirts up to their ass and shirts so tight you’d think they were auditioning at Hooters.
Regular posting out today
August 23rd, 2010
3:03 pm
I went to Holy Innocents’ in the 70s & 80s. My children attended Creek View ES in Alpharetta. Both schools show a good bit of similarity. I agree with DB we had our fair share of snobs in both schools.
Good Teacher
August 24th, 2010
12:58 am
Reading the comments its clearly obvious that those who think teaching is easy are misinformed. In good schools where parents are concerned and involved it would be easier to teach 30-40 students but then you have to think about how much one on one time is your child getting? Very little if they are not a major academic concern, the good students miss out as well when there are huge class sizes. Much more could be done to push them even further, so please think about that. For schools where the parents don’t care and consider school daycare and have no discipline or standards for their children it is difficult! The good students and those who don’t cause problems but need much help are neglected because you do have 10 discipline problems. Kids bringing knives from home, cussing, fighting, and tearing up a classroom. If you have never taught in one of these classrooms then I suggest you spend a year in one. The experience will enlighten you. You have parents that don’t care and won’t help their child complete simple homework and bring their children to school at 10:30 a.m. everyday! Even checking them out at 12! Think about all of that important instruction that is missed during those times and if your kids who feel like they just want to ruin the day by throwing items and furniture decide that they just want to. It happens everyday in these schools but its not the students fault. Everything starts at home and if they don’t care at home then our jobs are much more difficult and much harder to maintain. Not every classroom has the luxury of having respectful, mindful students that care about their education because their parents do!
Ri
August 25th, 2010
8:51 am
I agree with keeping class sizes small, but how about you know – fitting every kid into school? There might just not be enough teachers to go around. My English class here in the UK had 32, my Spanish class 14, my Science classes had 27, my P.E class had 45 at times. Just because small classes are better doesn’t mean everywhere can afford them.