Are two Mommies as good as a Mom and a Dad?

Well, Theresa, you really love to stir the pot, huh?! I have to say that I have seen some really terrible parenting from “traditional” two-parent families. I think the study makes sense. People who are better at parenting make better parents, whether they are mom/dad or mom/mom. This obviously will not be a popular view where we live, However, if something happened to my husband and me, and our children had to be taken care of by someone else, I’d rather it be two loving, caring, educated women than a mom/dad who were selfish, uncaring, drug-using, etc.

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If the kid is provided a loving home, regardless of what gender the parents are, then that child will have a good start to life. Being straight does not make you have better parenting skills than being gay does. If you took a poll of the people in jail, how many of them came from a heterosexual parent home and how many came from homosexual parent home? Same sex partners are just as capable of raising a child lovingly as opposite sex partners.

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Most of the same-sex couples that I have encountered have been well educated and are good parents. Unlike many heterosexual parents, they have put a lot of thought and energy into becoming parents, so they do their best in raising their children. I’m sure there are exceptions to this as with any family, but logically there will be less. If anything, I have more of a problem with the current generation who feels that it’s fine, even cool, to have unprotected sex outside of marriage and then get pregnant at a young age, but that’s a whole other can of worms.

We are in East Cobb (and we are a married, heterosexual couple with children), and several homosexual couples come here for the schools. This is as close to judgemental as you can get in suburban Atlanta (at least until you get further away from the city), and I have not noticed any stigma with my kids’ friends with same sex parents. My kids asked about it once, but their friends had an answer to why they didn’t have a dad, and that was it.

**”No.”** uses the same logic as they did back in the day when people were against integration. Really, there is no stigma unless you put it there. Go back to your Y2K bunker and wait for the world to end…

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Society should not legitimize the deviancy of ‘religiousness’.

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Absolutely yes. It doesn’t matter if a child has 1 mom and 1 dad, 2 moms or 2 dads or even a single parent with a network of friends and family who help out. As long as that child or children are the #1 priority in a household and are raised with love and respect from their caregivers, they will go far in live. I have lesbian friends who raised 2 children, and both turned out wonderfully. Kids don’t really care if they have 2 mommies; it’s the stigma from society as a whole that causes problems where there shouldn’t be any.

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A child needs to loving parents who are willing and able to meet their physical, emotional, developmental needs. IMO, in the ideal scenario, those two people would be their mother and father. But we don’t live in a fantasy world, and that scenario is the reality for very few people these days. The next-best thing is for two loving parents who truly care for that child – whether those parents are biological, adoptive, same-sex, hetero, whatever. Two good parents are better than two lousy parents, regardless of gender.

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I think there are things that I can help me son with that my wife can’t do. From how to hold a football to wrestling with him on the floor to having the “sex” talk. My wife could try those things, but I think they’d be more effective and meaningful to him if it was me – his dad.

You do what you’ve got to do. However, to say that it’s not better for a child to have a mom and a dad is just wrong.

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@Rod–sure there are probably things where a boy would be more comfortable talking to man, and if he’s being raised in a household with 2 moms, if there are close family friends, uncles, grandfathers or other male role models, I think the kid would still turn out alright. Same for girls being raised by 2 gay men. They could ask female friends or relatives to step in when it’s time for “girl” issues, etc.

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@A – I understand your point. However, I think for the boy to be able to be with and talk to dad (a man) at any time is different from making an appointment with a male family friend or seeing an uncle at Christmas. Also, I consider myself a role model for my son. Just him being around me and watching me and interacting with me hopefully teaches him some things about being a man and how I treat his mother.

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You can’t compare a “loving, educated…..” same-sex couple with “dysfunctional, drug using…” heterosexual couple. Bad parents and bad relationships exist in same sex and opposite sex couples. The question is: is it better for a child to have a male parent and a female parent. And yes, it is better. My gay friends across the street – 2 men with an adopted son – agree. And we all agree that growing up in their family is better for the baby than growing up in an orphanage.

Probably. I’m not 100% convinced as this particular baby has some issues that may make him a prime bullying target when he gets older. But my guess is that having been raised in a loving, stable family will get him through those issues and perhaps growing up without parents would create another set of issues that will be harder to overcome.

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Its logical that same sex couples would per capita raise healthier more well adjusted children. Think about it for a minute. A same-sex couple has to jump through quuite a few hoops to have a child. It can’t happen by accident. So, these people have thought through their decision more carefully than a lot of heterosexual couples. Obviously, some heterosexual couples don’t make the decision lightly either.

Its similar to another experience in my life. My friend is from Kenya. He has introduced me to many people from East Africa over the years. I commented to my wife one night that it seems that everyone from East Africa is hard working and dedicated. She retorted that its not likely that is true of any population, rather that I was only meeting East Africans who had taken the initiative to make it to America which puts them in an elite group.

Same thing here. Same sex couples with children are in an elite group of parents because the very existence of their child took initiative.

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I firmly believe that a child should see two parents of the opposite sex. There are issues that my daughter has that she doesn’t feel comfortable with speaking to my husband about. It’s a girl thing. Surely as my son gets older the same will be true. I’ve helped my husband understand the behavior of young girls when he’s completely lost because that was once me. I cannot imagine trying to raise my son without his presence. I truly believe that his male influence is necessary for my son’s development into manhood. Does it mean I don’t think that a woman can raise a man? Absolutely not! But a woman no more understands what it’s like being a man than a man understands what it’s like being a woman. In my home, I’m the nurturer. I’ll admit that I will let a lot of things slide. My husband tends to be a lot more strict, particularly with my son. In his words, “he’ll try me one day. All boys do.” With him already being taller than me at 12, I’m glad to have a 6′5″ male in the home to handle him when that day comes.

I have witnessed same sex couples raising a kid. He was well adjusted and a very bright little boy. They’re great people and great mommies. But I can’t help but wonder what his teen years will be like without that male influence in the home. As far as the stigma is concerned, I agree that it will exist, but parents can help their child overcome it. What I don’t like seeing is the parent that decided to marry and have kids, then one day decides that they really want to live their life as a homosexual and expect the kids to understand. Sorry, but that’s not fair to the kids. It’s a selfish act that I find despicable. Those are the parents that don’t deserve to be parents.

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Theresa please pull me out of the blog hole…I don’t know why this happens so much.

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(Theresa — my comments on yesterdays topic of teen sex are being held hostage!)

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Studies say whatever you want them to say. Not hard to get data out of subjective pretexts. There is no question that a normal (and, yes, I said normal) is more stable than a single parent household or one with a gay couple.

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Are we going to ignore the other studies that tell us that having dads that are involved with their daughters cause them to be less likely to get pregnant as teenagers, be involved with drugs and alcohol etc.? My wife and I bring different things to the table, there is no way a man could be for my two boys what my wife is. There is also no way another woman could replace me either and bring the counter-balancing strengths that is uniquely “daddy”. I think every Husband/wife couple know this but our politically-correct society will not allow them to say it.

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Brian in Athens, Do you extend the view that a man brings a different set of strengths to other aspects of life as well as child rearing?

For example, is a man able to perform “uniquely” at work in a way that a woman could not. Or could a woman bring strengths to her job that a man could not?

Specifically, do women make better nurses, teachers, and secretaries?

Are men better managers, businesss people, and engineers?

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Think how horrible it will be for the child with lesbian parents once he/she is out dating and trying to find a spouse. NOBODY is going to want TWO MOTHER-IN-LAWS!!!

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It’s 2010 and we’re still hearing the argument about “stigma”?! That’s the same argument used against integration and interracial marriage. Gues what? If people didn’t “sitgmatize” others, it wouldn’t be an issue, so get over it people. Gay couples can be great parents, or crappy parents. Straight couples can be great parents or crappy parents. Sexual preference has nothing to do with it.

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@Rod, then how do you explain how my husband who was raised by a single mother and his grandmother and never had a direct male role model turned out to not only be pretty darn manly (a little alpha but not annoyingly so) but also treats me with the respect that I think I deserve?

Maybe it’s because he was raised by two very smart women who taught him how to be responsible, hard working, value education and hard work, and to treat all people with respect.

And with having essentiall two moms (mom and grandma), he turned out to be a really great dad.

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My opinion is that children need a mom and a dad. A traditional family. I think to each his own, if same sex couples are happy together than so be it, but let’s be honest. There is a REASON that two women or two men cannot BIOLOGICALLY have children.

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1. Too many people today don’t take marriage seriously. We require people to take a test and pass in order to get a drivers license, but we don’t require anything to get married. Marriage is a committment and should not be based on how you “feel” today. My bride and I often have disagreements and don’t see eye to eye. But we made the committment before we said “I do” that divorce and taking the easy way out would not be an option. (I do understand there are times when a divorce is in order in cases of abuse/infidelity/etc).
2. Forget “religion” and step back from the emotional points of the argument for just a moment and UNDERSTAND that same sex parenting is AGAINST THE LAWS OF NATURE. Think about it folks. Nature did not design for reproduction between same sex individuals for a reason. Do we really need to interfere here?

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@iRun – you’re missing the point here. There are exceptions EVERYWHERE, and it’s good that your husband turned out well. Here, we’re talking about generalities. However, even if his case, you and he will never really know what he may have missed out on without a dad. Sorry but for a boy, going with your dad to a baseball game is a special time that only a father/son can understand.

Good for your husband, but again, we’re talking about generalities, not the exceptions.

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Studies also show that the child still needs a role model in their life from the opposite sex, to have a healthy outlook and good self-esteem. So two ‘mommies’ leaves a deficit in the male-role modeling area, just as two ‘daddies’ would leave a deficit in the female role model.

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@3 or 4 and @Brian in Athens. The point of the commentary is, after searching hi and lo…. “Yet we found that, in fact, there is no research that shows that children need both a mother and a father”. Hence, the basis for the argument of marriage = 1 man / 1woman hold no merit!

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Where’s Julie and FCM this morning. They’d be all over this one!

Nature (with all other animals) did not intend for same-sex parents to raise the offspring. Nature’s done pretty well so far, so this is just a few people wanting to justify their perversion of creation by raising children in a homosexual relationship. They’re more interested in their own needs/wants than what’s best for the children.

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2moms – you have men for role models? When they’re outside the home, not seen continually interacting with mom, it’s different than having a man in the house.

Also, you have a daughter – a little bit different scenario than having a son who needs a man to emulate. I’m sure you try your best – but to deny that having a father to look up to is important is just burying your head in the sand (with all due respect).

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It’s interesting how most of the stupid, illogical, hatred, instigating comments are from “names” that haven’t appeared before. Where either the regulars are to ashamed of their comments to use their normal names or outsiders just want to butt in and be a$$e$.

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It’s interesting how most of the stupid, illogical, hatred, instigating comments are from “names” that haven’t appeared before. Where either the regulars are to ashamed of their comments to use their normal names or outsiders just want to butt in and be jerks.

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No proof…

January 28th, 2010
9:47 am
@3 or 4 and @Brian in Athens. The point of the commentary is, after searching hi and lo…. “Yet we found that, in fact, there is no research that shows that children need both a mother and a father”. Hence, the basis for the argument of marriage = 1 man / 1woman hold no merit!

What about the studies Brian is referring to at 9:19? I think we can all agree that preventing teen pregnancy and drug/alcohol usage is good parenting. So apparently a father does provide tangible quantifiable benefits.

2moms – I’m not afraid of you, you have no power in my life. But you are harming an innocent child who will never have a chance to grow up in a real family. Way to be selfish!

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@Rod, also, you make a point that my husband is an exception. Based on what evidence? Your own experiences? Don’t we all default to own experiences as “normal”?

Thing is, families like this have existed FOREVER. It used to be that fathers were barely involved in child-rearing at all. Children were raised by all the women, who banded together to raise the kids and tend the fields while the men roamed around killing for meat and screwing whatever female they found, willing or otherwise.

So, there is no “normal” from what I can see.

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Nature did not intend for man to live 80+ years either. Without drugs, surgery, and other non-naturals the average life span would be about 35 years. So, please bigots, stop taking medicine.

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Now I see why people avoid this blog – to much hatred for a different opinion. I gave mine and get attacked.

I’ll leave this for the trolls.

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Dave – Not trying to be nasty but this is my child’s life you are talking about. I gave my general opinion, I didn’t ask for your personal feedback on what kind of role models I need for my kid. I’ll tell you what, let’s talk again in 18 years and see where our kids are and what kind of advantage having a man in the house gave your kids over mine.

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2moms – you didn’t ask for personal feedback? BULL!!!!

When you argue your situation on here, you’re begging for it. If you don’t want to know that what you’re doing is wrong or hurting your child, then don’t go announcing it. DUH.

To think that your child is better off without a father figure is just plain STUPID. Seriously. I’m sure you and your bedmate love your daughter – that’s not the point (which you’re not able to comprehend). The point is: no matter how masculine you or she may be, neither of you will ever be able to provide a good fatherly role model for your child: which is needed.

Love your family, but don’t be so stupid as to think your daughter is better off without a father figure.

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Seems to me in each of Theresa’s questions in the realistic, pragmatic world, the answer is the same….it depends.

Are two mommies better than a man and a woman…it depends.
Is the quality of parenting better or worse…it depends.
What about two men raising a child……it depend

If we’re asking that question from the “extreme world” and you ask if any of those circumstances are INHERENTLY better than the others, I think you’ll get the divergence of opinions we see here.

The point is…there’s no way to assess the inherent benefits because we will always see and accept bad hetero parents. They will always exist. Make no mistake, all hetero parents, good and bad, are the standard by which we base the “traditional marriage between a man and woman.” So when people talk “traditional marriage” and parenting, the tradition that has been practiced forever is that “traditionalists” are willing to accept the bad parents with the good parents as long as they’re hetero. And we’re not just talking a little bad, we’re talking really evil bad parents….but they’re hetero, so that’s the price we pay to preserve the traditional family and to “traditionalists” it’s an acceptable price to pay.

So I guess the problem I have is the “traditionists” don’t seem to want to regulate parenting and marriage for bad hetero parents…but they jump on that bandwagon against homosexual parents for the simple reason that they are homosexual. I find it a bit hypocritical.

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Jane, please don’t bring “nature” into this. very few species “mate for life”, and more than a few engage in canibalism, incest and homosexual behaviors as a means to establish dominance or the pecking order in a pack, herd, pride, or other social unit. AND, I am sure you are aware there are a handful of species which are “unisex” (adults have genitalia of both genders. I think the jury is still out on any impact this may have on children, but homosexuality is not exclusive to homosapiens. it is only attempts by some to place moral/political value on homosexuality, which is exclusively human, but come to think of it, this is done in order to “establish domimance or a pecking order within the pack, herd, pride or other social unit.” you may be qualified to speak on homosexuality as it relates to the laws of man (Bible, Constitution) but you’re off the mark when you start citing Mother Nature.

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READ THE BIBLE……GOD created EVE for a damn good reason…..ADAM..& BOB could have have created CAIN & ABLE……….LIBERALs love the challenge traditional values…

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OK, it’s obvious that Jane and 3 or 4 are determined to engage in degenerate conversation. Wait, no, they’re not willing to converse. They just want to bring down the house and use inflammatory language.

So, everyone on here who actually wants to have a REAL conversation, please just do not feed those bears. I’m talking to you, too, Rod, because I was interested in having a real back and forth with you but now you’ve fled.

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LIBERALS love to attack traditional Christian values:…..Liberals attack the traditional concept of MARRIAGE..between a man & a women………..LIBERALs attack the NATIVITY SCENE in the Public Square……Liberals attack the Lord’s Prayer in public places……Liberals attack the TEN COMMANDMENTS in public places…..Liberals seek to eliminate GOD on public ducuments..

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Some of these comments are very sad. Some of them are very Christian based, and some people just cannot think for themselves.

I have no problem with same sex parenting. I have no problem with same sex marriages. I have no problem with gays and lesbians raising kids. What I do have a problem with is crack ho’s and low income idiots with numerous baby daddies/mommies, who continue to breed, and expect ME to support their kids with my tax dollars.

What it comes down to is a loving family environment. As long as a child is loved, fed, and taken care of, they will turn out just fine. I’ve known NUMEROUS single moms who have raised well adjusted boys, without a man in the home.

We are in the 21st century people. Where is the tolerance? So someone doesn’t think exactly like you. Too bad. Open your minds and see that there are SO many different PEOPLE, regardless of skin color, sexual preference, etc. and that’s what makes this world interesting.

Imagine if we all thought the same, raised our kids the same, worked the same jobs, listened to the same music, ate the same food, etc. How boring would that be?

I believe in diversity!!!!!!

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I firmly believe that a child should see two parents of the opposite sex. There are issues that my daughter has that she doesn’t feel comfortable with speaking to my husband about. It’s a girl thing. Surely as my son gets older the same will be true. I’ve helped my husband understand the behavior of young girls when he’s completely lost because that was once me. I cannot imagine trying to raise my son without his presence. I truly believe that his male influence is necessary for my son’s development into manhood. Does it mean I don’t think that a woman can raise a man? Absolutely not! But a woman no more understands what it’s like being a man than a man understands what it’s like being a woman. In my home, I’m the nurturer. I’ll admit that I will let a lot of things slide. My husband tends to be a lot more strict, particularly with my son. In his words, “he’ll try me one day. All boys do.” With him already being taller than me at 12, I’m glad to have a 6′5″ male in the home to handle him when that day comes.

I have witnessed same sex couples raising a kid. He was well adjusted and a very bright little boy. They’re great people and great mommies. But I can’t help but wonder what his teen years will be like without that male influence in the home. As far as the stigma is concerned, I agree that it will exist, but parents can help their child overcome it. What I don’t like seeing is the parent that decided to marry and have kids, then one day decides that they really want to live their life with a same sex partnew and expect the kids to understand. Sorry, but that’s not fair to the kids. It’s a selfish act that I find despicable.

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on a side note….I hope all you people worried about the “stigma” that kids face with same sex parents aren’t raising any fat kids! If you are, you need to take a long hard look at the stigma they’re facing as fat kids. As a former fat kid, it’s ROUGH! So hopefully you’re not cherry picking the stigmas you worry about.

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3 or 4? Where exactly do you live? Spend some time in most of Atlanta and Decatur and you will see many many 2 parent families that happen to have 2 moms or 2 dads. Do you think it’s all a big myth? I am not in a cave. I’ll tell you where we will be this weekend and you are welcome to join us!

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Can you imagine a small child trying to explain to his/her friends why he/she has two moms or two dads instead of the traditional mom/dad family? I would never do that to a child. Maybe it’s ok legally, but morally and spiritually, it’s a slap in the face to the child. He/she will need therapy for many years to come, mark my words.

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Seriously, get a grip. If homosexuality was supposed to happen, the human race would disappear in 100 years.

We were meant to be man/woman – DUH!!!

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2Mommy makes an excellent point…not better, just different.

Why does everyone keep bringing up the male role model thing? If my husband dies, today, do I need to remarry (a man), tomorrow, just to ensure that my children have a male role model? Let’s be realistic here. I think it is more important to not have crappy people in your life, influencing your kids, whether they are male or female. However, since so many of you keep harping on this, I am thinking you have given me a wonderful business idea. ATTENTION ALL GAYS: MALE AND FEMALE ROLE MODELS FOR HIRE

Topics like this just make me cringe. It makes me worry that my children might actually know some of you.

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@multiples – what blog are you reading? While most of us agree that 4 hands are better than 2, most of us also agree that a mother/father is much better than M/M or F/F. On a few (repeatedly posting) folks go the other way.

Less than 10% of this country live in a homosexual family with children – yet 30-40% of this blog is from them. Shows you that they’re just blasting the blog, trying to force their pervision on others.

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I’ve got a serious question here for those who are so rabidly against same sex parenting. Are you willing the extoll punishment via legislation against hetero parents who fail to live up to their commitments that they should have taken on the first time around. Would you be willing to establish a law that says, after due process and a finding of failing to be a good parent, that person was barred from being granted a marriage license ever again in the future?

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A boy learns how to be a man from living with another man, be it father, grandfather, uncle, whatever. He stands like his role modle, dresses like his role model, handles anger and frustration like his role model, develops patterns of problem solving like his role model.

A girl needs a man around the house as well. She needs to learn how to live with men, how to interact with men, and to see how men interact with other men and other women.

And the reverse is true for having a woman in the house.

The term “bastard” not only means a boy without a father, but also a boy who has not been taught and who has not learned gentle behavior, manners or how to get along with others. Boys learn this from other men. A house without both a man or a woman present reduces the social skills of the children.

The children can live, but not thrive, without these influences. As Cyrano de Bergerac said about needing the influence of a woman in his life, “You blessed my life! Never on me had rested woman’s love. My mother even could not find me fair I had no sister; and, when grown a man, I feared the mistress who would mock at me. But I have had your friendship — grace to you! A woman’s charm has passed across my path.”

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If a study was conducted comparing parents who accidentally had children with parents who took time to make a decision and purposely became parents, I would be willing to bet that the latter population would score higher in the evaluation as a general rule.

Just so you know, I am a member of the former group who did not plan parenthood.

All gay parents are members of the latter group. Gay parents all had to take extraordinary steps to become parents. Logically, they have thought through the process making them more likely to be good parents than hetero parents who may have accidentally procreated.

The idea that a person’s parenting skills and strengths is in anyway related to whether or not a person has a penis is a strange idea to me.

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Tiger – talk about! You ain’t lyin. As a former fat chick (well, a non-fat chick who got fat and then got un-fat) I can attest to that stigma.

I remember going out with the girls one night while I was still fat and we were just hanging out and I went to get the latest round of drinks. And you know how you’re just standing at the bar waiting on the bartender so you might strike up conversation with the person next to you just to kill time? Well, that guy was having NONE of that. He actually told me he wasn’t interested. I told HIM, in that jolly ha-ha way fat people have, I wasn’t hitting on him, that I was married, and just being chatty while I waited for the bartender. AT least he had the good grace to relax and have a chat.

Fast forward to post-weight loss…I go out with the girls now? My now size 4 self actually gets hit on and I have to flash the wedding ring. The first time I did the whole “chat to kill time at the bar” thing after losing weight (yeah, I sort of disappeared during the weight loss process and didn’t go out so I could focus on new habits) was a mistake…way different response.

So, long story aside…on the same page re picking your stigmas…

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Tiger needs me on his PR team

January 28th, 2010
10:52 am
I’ve got a serious question here for those who are so rabidly against same sex parenting. Are you willing the extoll punishment via legislation against hetero parents who fail to live up to their commitments that they should have taken on the first time around. Would you be willing to establish a law that says, after due process and a finding of failing to be a good parent, that person was barred from being granted a marriage license ever again in the future?

Yes

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To the same-sex parents:

Please don’t despair. There are plenty of people who will judge you by the quality of your parenting and not by your sexual orientation. I am part of an inter-racial couple, which would have been illegal just a generation ago. People will still say that our children will be “stigmatized.” It pains me that same-sex couples must deal with such bigotry in the 21st century, but I have faith that you will be able to enjoy the rights you are entitled to as full fledged citizens of the United States in the near future. Hang in there.

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I don’t really care if it’s 2 Mommies or 2 Daddies, as long as they care about their family..I was raised with a “Dad” that spent more time drinking than he ever spent with any of his kids..My Mother worked more than she should of had to just to support..So basically neither one of them was a great parent..

@2moms..Sounds like y’all are doing a good job..So please keep up the good work..I think that I would of been just as happy with 2 Moms (or Dads) knowing that they loved me and cared about me vs. what I actually did grow up with..

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Richard Swingin I am going to assume you have gone to theological school and is an expert in this area right?

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I’ve got another question to those against against same sex marriage.

When Vermont legalized same sex marriage and the first wave of couples got married, how did that, in a practical sense, effect your marriage or the message you are trying to teach to your children about right and wrong as it applies to them?

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Julia, I am an “expert” in MY faith. I have attended religious schools and taken religious courses in secular schools. you claimed that homosexuality is contrary to nature (paraphrase) and I am simply offering that you are filtering your “natural law” through the laws of man. I don’t have to be an “expert” in anything beyond reading comprehension. Have you ever seen a male dog “mount” another male dog? Have you heard that a male polar bear, tiger, lion or chimpanzee will kill/eat its own child? you ever raise guppies (tropical fish). the mother will eat her offspring unless you have a special breeding compartment in the tank. some species worms can literally f**k themselves (procreate without a mate). last time I checked, these are all “naturally” occuring behaviors. SO, my question is, are you suggesting that it is wrong for homosapiens to engage in homosexual behavior, but the other laws of nature (incest, cannibalism, etc.) are in play? I have not problem with people of faith. as I said, I was raised by two very Christian parent, whom I love, and who loved me. what would help this discussion would be for bloggers to distinguish between faith/laws of man and science/laws of nature. as I (ironically) opined, in my opinion, the “laws of man” are themselves manifestations of the laws of nature (man’s need to dominate and control).

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@Tiger “is the function of sex solely an act of/for procreation?”

Good Lord NO….if it were, I might as well kill myself now. I am a dirty little (happy) sinner…stop with your talk of procreation, it makes my “closed for business” womb shudder. NO NO NO NO. LOL luv ya.

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I want to point out that until 100-200 years ago (different dates in different countries) the most common family structure was the extended family. This was because in agricultural societies, including those during Biblical times, it made more sense to have many people doing the work of farming and household labor including raising children. The industrial revolution and shift to modern work patterns shaped the shift to the 2-parent nuclear family household.

So if you are a real traditionalist, or an advocate of the Biblical family model, you will be into the idea of 7-8 person parenting groups, right? Sometimes with one man and many wives like on Big Love? Or is it that what you are really seeking is a return to an imagined golden age when everyone’s family looked like Leave it to Beaver?

In fact, that was only a brief blip on the socioeconomic patterns of human society. Even during the “glorious” 1950s many agricultural and African-American families in the US continued to live in extended family groups due to economic necessity. Sociologists recognize that humans are moving into a new family and kinship model, again at different rates in different countries, where the nuclear family is rapidly becoming the minority in ours and other Western countries, while some non-Western countries are just now moving from extended to nuclear family models.

The organization of human society is a shifting phenomenon that has changed over time and will continue to change, and there have always been those made nervous by those changes. Don’t you think that Ishmael the camel herder got nervous when multiple wives fell out of favor with the religious and political establishment?

Just trying to put things in a bit of perspective.

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I am SO on bord with Tiger and Richard …

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GAH!!! bord = board

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People are getting way off the topic at hand. We’re not discussing if gays are good people or even good parents. There are good gay and hetero parents, just like there are bad ones.

The basic topic – is it good for a child to have both a male and female role model in their lives (not a friend, but a father and mother)?

The answer is simply yes. Sometimes this is not possible – fine. But, a child is better off with both role models. To deny this is to just put your personal agenda ahead of reality.

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Two-parent households will often be able to provide a better quality of life for children than one-parent households, especially if they have more money, stability (mentally, emotionally and financially) and love. More is better. However, I don’t think you can replace the value of a fully functioning husband and wife parent structure to provide the love and training that both male and female children need. So if there are “two mothers” or “two fathers,” there should also be someone(s) of the opposite sex who spends a lot of time with the children to provide that balance.

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Have you ever seen a male dog “mount” another male dog?

The fact they do that does not mean they are gay.. they would mount a pillow if they were in the mood.

Have you heard that a male polar bear, tiger, lion or chimpanzee will kill/eat its own child?

Have you heard the mothers will do the same thing? Mostly they do this to the weakest link, the ones that wont survive..

you ever raise guppies (tropical fish). the mother will eat her offspring unless you have a special breeding compartment in the tank. some species worms can literally f**k themselves (procreate without a mate).
last time I checked, these are all “naturally” occuring behaviors. SO, my question is, are you suggesting that it is wrong for homosapiens to engage in homosexual behavior, but the other laws of nature (incest, cannibalism, etc.) are in play? I have not problem with people of faith. as I said, I was raised by two very Christian parent, whom I love, and who loved me. what would help this discussion would be for bloggers to distinguish between faith/laws of man and science/laws of nature. as I (ironically) opined, in my opinion, the “laws of man” are themselves manifestations of the laws of nature (man’s need to dominate and control).

Not that I am an expert on this but the last I read (any where) We humans are higher on the food chain too, God made Adam and Eve… Yes he also made animals but again we are different of the animals. “I” doubt he mean for all animals / plants / humans to act the same or reproduce the same.

last time I checked, these are all “naturally” occuring behaviors. SO, my question is, are you suggesting that it is wrong for homosapiens to engage in homosexual behavior, but the other laws of nature (incest, cannibalism, etc. Now if you really want to toe the line on this one – putting “us” in the homosapien category with incest.. you are one sick puppy.

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And with all this talk about the Adam and Eve being a literal story…do you also believe that a snake actually spoke to them…or that Sampson could lift a tow truck with long hair but didn’t have the strength to sit on a bar stoll with a shaved head? I mean, do you believe these are literal, factual, true historical accounts?

Its fine if you do, I’ve got no problem with it, I’m just trying to gauge how far the suspension of disbelief goes with some of you in the name of religion and faith.

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And how do the same sex couples conceive? I have nothing against same sex marriage. What I do not support is the purchase of your child. Face it – more and more people now days are buying a child like a piece of furniture, just because they can make a run to a sperm bank and CHOOSE your kid’s father or select your kid’s surrogate mother. Another lucrative fashion trend. This also applies to single unmarried mommies in their 40s who decide that there is no time to get married to have a child, but they still have enough time to buy some strangers sperm.

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I’m not a gay/lesbian hater(I am not your judge) however people God intended for men and women to procreate-that’s how the human race continues on. I’m not being funny-if it was intended for a M/M or W/W to have children how come having them naturally is not an option?? Sure,some hetero couples have to adopt for various reasons but at least they had an option to have sex and try to concieve the old fashion way.

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Tiger needs me on his PR team honey I said higher on the food chain, I would never say that one can not be bigger than the other :)…

Yes I do believe and I have faith…

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@Lisa…have you or your partner ever used birth control?

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@Julia…ok…so lets say you were 350 pounds with 2% body fat. Are you telling me then it’s a fair fight?

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Julia – hey there is all kinds of incest in the Bible…in case you take the Bible as the de facto standard of God’s word.

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Tiger, I will make a deal with you.. You go in and beat the crap out of him first… If he does not kill you first and you come out alive.. I will go in and finish him off… Remember I am a girl and fight like one so you take all your manly testosterone and protect me :)

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@Julia…you’re the one saying humans are on the top of the food chain….you’re on your own in that cage! I hope he listens to reason!

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so tiger are you saying that you are the same as the bear or the dog or cat?

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As I read through some of these posts I get so frustrated. I was just discussing this point with my wife yesterday, and by the way I AM A WOMAN. Our daughter, who is my biological daughter from a hetero sexual encounter, is so much more secure and confident since her step mother and I were married 9 months ago. I fully believe that what matters to all children is that they have a stable household, with married parents who engage in healthy and consistent parenting styles. Sexual orientation is not the core issue. Gay Marriage rights are not the core issue. The core issue is the child/children. Children thrive in secure and stable environments. The fact that my daughter’s father is a “tool” to put it nicely and demonstrates no interest in being her parent expect when he wants to manipulate me only served to create a negative emotional response. Now she knows everyday when she wakes up that she has 2 adults she can count on to love, protect and provide for her. This is what helps her thrive.

Someone posted…you have a daughter. a boy needs a man. Well I can not say that I disagree. But all children need a man. All children need to observe positive relationships between people. We as married women have an obligation to ensure our child has exposure to healthy relationshoips of all types. And that is where her Godfather and his wife come in, my 4 brother-in-laws and there wives, her friends’ families, etc. All families are different, hetero, homo, trans-it does not matter. The bigger influence is culture, communication styles, social adaptaion. etc. As parents we all have an obligation to ensure our children have positive exposure to all types of families, from all walks of life.

Marriage is the key-stability, equality, communication, etc-regardless of sexuality

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@julia….not the same…I think what makes us primarily different is evolved brain function….you were making the “humans are superior” argument based on the food chain thing. I just think that was weak reasoning.

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Julia, how can I explain this to you? you said Homosexuality is “against nature” or “not natural”. got it? YOU cited “natural law” to support your belief that homosexuality is wrong (not natural). I simply suggested that if you are going to argue based on what your understanding of Mother Nature suggests, then you’d better re-calibrate your moral compass, as incest and cannibalism are quite “natural” (and when I say “natural” I include homosapiens). let’s say you are right and I am wrong. let’s say your god created Adam and Eve (who created Cain and Abel). were Cain and Abel gay, or did they just “procreate” with their mom (ewwww)? OR, does Genesis simply not dwell on Cain and Abel’s female siblings, because… well, if it weren’t Eve, then Cain and Abel had to (re)produce Homosapien v. 3.0 with their sisters (equally ewwww). You can’t have it both ways (unless, of course, you’re theologically bi-sexual). either behaviors (homosexuality, incest, canbibalism, homicide) are “natural” or they are not. You can’t say “homosexuality is wrong because it’s not natural” (because it is – like incest, cannibalism and homicide – natural throughout the natural world (including homosapiens). you can deem any of these behaviors “morally” wrong, or “contrary to God’s laws” but I would send you back to my Adam and Eve comments.

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I see “if a child doesn’t see a father in the house how will he/she know how a man is supposed to act”. Makes sense. However, what if said father is abusive to his wife and children, won’t hold down a job, won’t get off the couch, won’t do anything to better the lives of his children? What kind of role model is he? A lot of people who were abused also become abusers. Does it make the mother a bad person if she removed that man from his children’s lives? Not to me, that says SHE has her children’s best interest at heart even though HE does not.

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You guys, I will not get into the petty pissing contest of I am right – you are right. You have your beliefs and I have mine. You will fight to your death on your beliefs as I will do the same. I am going to stand on the … I will just wait for the second coming of Christ to see.

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To SJ-
So those are your options huh? They either go to a drug-abusing straight couple or a nice lesbian couple. Hey, heres an idea. How ’bout they go to a nice, caring, educated straight couple?

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My parents divorced when I was a year old. I saw my dad a total of 5 times during my first 18 years of life; my mother didn’t want him around us. Having a single mom back in the 1970’s in rural Virginia was a no-no. I was teased (even at church) and my mother was thought of as a deviant (even though she wasn’t). Times have changed but I would have liked to have known my father growing up even with his flaws. I think anyone who wants to make a commitment to a rear a child should be treated with respect. It is a difficult job. I’m a married Republican woman (no kids) and I don’t see anything wrong with homosexuals marrying and having children. What is wrong with wanting happy, well-adjusted children in America? I would like future generations to be that.

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Julia, shhhhhhhhh; don’t tell anyone I told you this, but pedophilia/child molestation, rape, incest and cannibalism DO exist in the homosapien world (and to varying degrees are accepted – if not endorsed by certain cultures, as are polygamy, genital mutilation, and arraged marriages). your position seems to suggest that were it not for your god, these things would be OK, as they are obviously OK with some of the people who do not worship your god. (some) Muslims, believe they will will be rewarded for martyrdom with 73 virgins. are you OK with this? Muslims ALSO believe that homosexuality is sinful and deviant. are you suggesting that sometimes “natural law” and god’s law are in sync, but other times they are not – and we need Pat Robertson, Ossama bin Laden or the Pope to let us know the score?

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NO.

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No Way – Oh I had to chime in on your comment about your “adopted” friend.

We adoptees don’t all have abandonment issues, nor are we feeling lost, and searing for our bio Parents. Your friend is a 1 in a 1,000 case. She does not speak for all adoptees………her situation is different than mine.

I was adopted 50 years ago, as was my brother 48 years ago. NEITHER of us have abandonment issues, NEITHER of us want to find our bio parents, and we have always felt like part of OUR family. We were both told we were adopted at an early age, I was 8, he was 6.

We were raised in a loving home, by two parents who could not have children, and chose to adopt. My bio mom made a very difficult decision to give me a better life than she could provide, as did my bother’s bio parents. We have always known that. I am thankful that she did make that decision and I am a very happy, well adjusted, normal person. So is my brother (we do NOT have the same bio parents). Both of us are productive members of society, he is in law enforcement and I am in office management. We both know that we are loved by our parents. The love flowed in our home……my parents had NEVER referred to us as their “adopted children”. We are their kids, and they raised us with plenty of love.

We were CHOSEN by our adoptive parents, who, as far as I’m concerned, concieved me. Neither my brother nor I have EVER wanted to find our bio parents, they don’t exist to us. My mom has told both of us over and over if we want to search, she will support us. Both of us have said NO absolutely NOT.

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Jane,
Regarding your earlier comment of “outsiders”…I wasn’t aware this public forum was only for use by the “regulars”. Perhaps this topic is simply one that more people feel passionate enough about to post a reply. You are apparently a “regular”…do you not find it nice to get opinions you’ve not heard before? I love reading the AJC blogs in all categories. I rarely post, but they are fun to skim through.

@aquagirl, the “mammoth” comment made my day. That was hilarious and well put.

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Richard, I will be the one to take the high road… have a good day

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Gays are simply a perversion of what we were created to be.

Man was not given a penis in order to stick it in another man’s butthole, which was designed to push waste out of.

Lesbians like using dildos and other toys on each other – they’re admiting the need for a penis, but are creating one themselves. Showing that they know they should actually be having sexual relations with men and using REAL penises.

These sick and perverse people should not be role models for young children. It’s disgusting.

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Hey Lori…you never answered my question…is it better for a child to live in one house or city from K-12 with a stable family or be moved around every two years? There is a point to my question if I can get the simple answer from you.

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Joia great point… that will be interesting

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I’m sorry…I meant the anal sex question to be directed at jane.

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@Tiger – clearly you don’t care about real discussion. You just like to argue and I’ve decided you’re not worth my time anymore. When you grow up, I’d be happy to discuss things with you.

Did you not get enough attention when you were younger?

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So Jane, using a dildo, or vibrator is sick and perverted? I guess you’ve never used any “toys”?

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David S, please define “heterosexual family unit”. is that the Clinto model, the Mark Sanders model? the John Edwards model?, or is it the Jim and Tammy Faye Baker model? or the JFK-Jackie model? Or, is it the old Elton John (was married to a woman) model? It sounds like you are OK with homosexuals or bi-sexual men, as long as they exist (procreate) as part of a two parent/heterosexual home? Have you ever heard the expression “down low”? There are MANY homosexual men who CHOOSE to live heterosexual lives (marriage, kids, golden retriever), and there are probably more heterosexual men who CHOOSE to be unfaithful to their wives. You need to hook up with Julia, so the pond is stocked with healthy, heterosexual offspring and not deviant homosexual types.

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NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. AND NO.

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Right now this is some very serious issues of confusion of whom is whom!!

My freaking african gray has learned to meow like the cat!!!

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I am sooooooo glad I signed on today. Lesbians, gays, cannibals, incestuous relationships, buttholes, dildos, anal sex…..if we can get some oral, fisting and a donkey show all the bases should be covered. Glad I brought some snack mix for the festivities. Proceed.

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Dar I have the koolaid if you will share your snacks :)

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@Jane…I’m REALLY confused! I thought that SEX was for PROCREATION. Thats why men and women together follow the NATURAL ORDER…right? Anal sex between a MAN and WOMAN can NEVER result in PROCREATION, but it’s ok for you Jane. So if it can’t result in life, wouldn’t that suggest that sex is about more than just procreation?

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I agree that we should stick to raditions as America has so many great ones…ie slavery, salem witch trials, separate but equal, Japanese internment, and dog fighting just to name a few. Luckily those traditions wouldn’t mess up a child like those evil gays and their deviant behavior!

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Being in a same-sex relationship (two males) of 27 years, we have an adopted son. We both balance our household and activities and our child does not miss out on anything. Regardless if we are two males, two females, or a traditional male/female couple I don’t think most of society can get past the point of our desire of sex with the same sex. What goes on in our bedroom does not include our child. Homo’s put their pants on just like everyone else and we do an even better job at everything we do just because we are judged by so many.

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Since my bird is now meowing like the cat, should I feed her cat food?

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@Timmy. How dare you come in here talking all nice about love, child-rearing and pants. We were just getting to the good part of buttholes and dildos and hellfire….you, you, you MOOD KILLER!

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100 years ago people did not realize that it was bad to smoke / cancer.. 100 years ago people did not realize it was harmful to ride with out seat belts… 100 years FROM now.. We have NO way of knowing what our life style on the next generation(s) will be in a positive way or a bad way.. We can not tell the future….

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Jesus… you need to talk to David S. the government tells us it’s bad to smoke. the government tells us it’s harmful to ride without seat belts. the truth is; it’s bad for a human head to slam into a dashboard (seat belt or no seat belt). it’s bad to get cancer, but not all smokers get cancer, and the government warnings (initially) stated that tobacco “is known to cause cancer in laboratory rats” (I don’t smoke, so I don’t know what the current warning says). the government’s intrusion into the lifestyle choices of Americans has more to do with our lawsuit (tort reform?) driven culture AND insurance company malfeasance, than concern for the sanctity of human life. Jim Fixx wrote a book about running and died of a heart attack while running. Should Nike have to put a warning on running shoes? It’s like the current “no texting while driving” push. if the government has to ban such an obviously stupid act, we’re doomed. Last time I checked, raising a child in a loving, respectful environment, regardless of the parental configuration is not detrimental to the child (which was where this whole blog started). Abnormal is the new normal. Non-traditional is the new traditional.

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If humans were meant to be gay, then men could get men pregnant and women could get women pregnant.

They can’t, so guess what. THEY WEREN’T MEANT TO BE TOGETHER!!!

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Richard are you mawking me!

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actually Jesus, according to the good book, YOU didn’t make anyone; you’re dad did. and if your dad is in fact the much ballyhooed (Declaration of Codependence) the “Creator” who “endowed” us ALL with certain rights, HE also created homosexuals and homosexuality. that is to sayl HE created Adam and Eve AND Adam and Steve. Are you related to Julia? now, if you’re just baiting me, touche’ SO, (Realist) why would your god create gay people if he didn’t “mean” to do so?

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I have a donkey! Horse too, but that’s a different story altogether…

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@Realist…do you happen to abstain from sex when you don’t want to procreate? Or use birth control? if you do, you’re really not using sex for its intended purpose, right?

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Dar here ya go!

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@dar…haven’t you heard…that’s a sin too……that’s some precious cargo there. I get weepy when I spill a drop of my crown and coke…and can only imagine the guilt associated with that!

Betsy’s going to have a field day on that one! ;-)

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ew

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I am not a lesbian myself so I cannot speak from experience, but I thought the idea is that they DON’T want penises. Likewise, I cannot speak from experience on dildos, but I think the idea there is that it feels good, not that it means they secretly want men’s penises. And I do not think that gay men are closing their eyes and imagining they are having sex with a vagina. Not sure what to say about a stick up the butt, perhaps some people enjoy it but most probably need to remove theirs.

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Man, why does everyone go straight to the bedroom when we’re talking about gays? 99% of the gay person’s life is spent NOT having sex…just like most of us. And being gay, from what I can tell, isn’t just about being sexually attracted to the same sex. It’s also about mental and emotional connections.

So, man, in the same direction Timmy was going…ANY parent who brings their kind to the bedroom with them doesn’t deserve to be a parent…and I’m not including “The Sex Talk” here.

2mom, right! Right? What a pornographic view of things Jane has! What a gutter mind. Because OBVIOUSLY you and your partner break out the strap-on as soon as the kids are asleep.

Sheesh.

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@iRun…you hit the nail on the head…from what I can tell…sex that these people find distasteful (pun intended) is THE cornerstone of their argument.

@Dar…woudln’t it be great if Carlin could opine on this blog…may he rest in peace!

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Sorry, I meant “ANY parent who brings their KID to the bedroom…”

bleh

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Julia, no, the world does not revolve around me. It revolves around the sun (not the Son, unless you mean W, who was the son of G.H.W. Bush). Tiger, I never met George Carlin, but I don’t believe dildo or penis were on “the list” – he’d only be proud if someone slipped one of the “7″ into the blog. and interestingly enough, while none of the seven include parts of the male anatomy, two of the seven refer to parts of the female anatomy. go figure.

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2moms – “You are by far one of the most least worldly and educated people I have ever listened to and you have the right to judge me and my family. ”

Are you sure you’re well educated?

“most least”
you can’t “listen to” someone posting messages to an online blog

I do respect that you acknowledge that he does in fact have “the right to judge you”. Anyone displaying this kind of deviant behaviour and harming a child does in fact deserve harsh judgment.

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Richard you are a jack ass and self absorbed

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You know, while we’re talking about the “roles” men and women play in their children’s lives let us revisit these roles. I mean, what does this mean? Does it mean the same thing today as it did in the 1970s? Should it?

Exhibit A: Katherine Switzer – http://www.katherineswitzer.com/life.shtml

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@Jane -from countless other posts you’ve shown us what a judgemental, self-righteous moron you are, but today’s entry takes the cake! I’m not gay, but I think YOU and those like you are the disgusting perversion! Sometimes your posts are so vitriolic I think you must be Vork or someone in disguise to flame up the board. If you’re real, I pity you and anyone who has to live with you. Perhaps you should purchase an enormous dildo and see if you can release some of that hostility!

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I knew what I wrote would make some women angry. But it’s always those women who met a bad man then want to clasify all men into that category and I refuse to let that slide. All absent fathers did not walk away.

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In all fairness Jeff, you did say “BTW, thank ALL the single moms this last generation for raising confused young men. They are being the man you made them in to”

You didn’t make any qualifiers there…you basically pinned the responsbility of “raising confused young men” entirely on ALL single moms.

If you want to back off that statement, that’s one thing, but if you don’t, it’s pretty contradictory to blame ALL single moms on the problem then turn around and concede that there are absent fathers who just walked away and not save some scorn for them.

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OH WOW! I certainly did not read all 248 posts to this topic before joinint the fray!
My personal and religious opinion is why the hell wouldn’t they. You do not need a pecker to make a good parent. You do not need ovaries to make a good parent. You do however need both to create a child!
As to Adam and Eve/Cain& Able etc: What if you realize that there are 2 creation stories shared in the Bible. (Genesis 1 & Genesis 2) The one says God created Man & Woman then all the other animals. The second says God created the animals and then Man and then Woman. OBVIOUSLY they cannot both be right. Both are there though…so why? Well again, this is where those of my faith (Disciple of Christ, Christian Church for those of you who care) says that is why we are all STUDENTS in constant study and reflection on the Word. We are to determine for ourselves what is being told. Then we share our thoughts and tell you to think about it and make up your own mind (which is probably why I love to read Tiger and Richard and am not threatened by them nor feel a need to argue why I believe what I do.)
I have indeed spent a great deal of time studying the bible. I will continue to do so.
One of the main things I wanted to learn is why is homosexuality considered so horrible a “sin”. I found I didn’t believe it was a sin at all, at least not any more than my conduct of having hetro- sex outside the bounds of having a fully committed relationship—notice I did not say marriage. If two different gender people never have their relationship “blessed” in church BUT live in a fully committed relationship of 50 years I think God blesses it. Only God knows the hearts of men.
Anyway my take on A&E et al: They are representatives of the people of their time. They were probably not the only ones in Eden (which I do believe probably existed in some fashion). They are probably a composite of people of their time. Something “evil” did lure them to break the original Covenant with God. So they did fall from His grace. They (the entire people) did find that had to leave Eden and He did show them His mercy by making it not as rough as it could have been. Thus when they had Cain and Able, those sons would have found daughters to procreate with. Or have you never noticed the decided LACK of INFORMATION on females in the Bible? For instance you seldom hear about the wives of the Disciples, but other records of the time show some of them were married. I think Saul/Paul could have even be a Eunch for that matter, or possibly just not interested in sex. He has some decidedly interesting comments on the subject for an otherwise healthy male.
Children were sacrificed in the times…in fact live babies were buried in the foundations of housing and certain (not Hebrew) temples. This was to aid in the luck/grace of the people dwelling/worshiping within. Abraham being told to forgo Isaac for the ram provided (at the last minute) is why Hebrew people knew not to sacrifice children. Unfortunately this did not catch on in mainstream society until much, much later (look it up). This of course was another Covenant. OH and do not forget that Abraham passed Sarah off as his sister not once but twice.
So does any of that make my “religion” (Christianity) a fairy tale. NOPE. It also doesn’t rule what kind of parents make good ones or bad ones. I think those that provide safe, clean, loving homes, that raise children to be secure, responsible, productive ADULTS are good parents. If that is 2 men, 2 women, one of each, or Me (single parent remember) then so be it. Certainly children should have role models from both genders but that wasn’t what we were discussing now was it?

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Hey Tiger…I’ve been swamped! I could be wrong here..but on think on the true parent topic we are on the same side on this one. The religious one we already agreed to just disagree but listen to each other. :)

Julia!!!!! Hugs to you hon!

JATL I wondered where you were!

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@FCM…you and I TOTALLY agree on more than we disagree on. hell….I’ll give you that you may even be right about the whole afterlife thing too! but then again that may be self serving because I don’t think I’m doomed to a very HOT eternity in the afterlife that subscribes to your beliefs. Now if Betsy’s and Jane are right…break out the SPF INFINITY, because I”m going to FRY!

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You know Richard (and please don’t call me Dick)….I think telling someone they are wrong about their religious beliefs is tantamount to them telling me that I’m wrong. I believe what I believe. I respect that FCM believes what she believes. I don’t happen to agree with her, but she could be right. The only people who truly know aren’t talking. So if you’re going to fight the beast by saying in absolutes that you’re right and they’re wrong…realize you’ve become the beast.

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DAR!! you’re back…I’ve missed your dirty talk!

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wow… just wow..

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That was directed at “dick” aka pecker head

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@DAR…well said. but you forgot the part about the dildos and butt plugs…

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Loving, stable home, what more do you need? Why does it matter if its 2 moms or 2 dads? 1 mom and 1 dad doesn’t = good parents. It depends on the individuals.

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@FCM -present and accounted for! I was enjoying an incredible (and cheap) sauna day. I’m sure many on here would heartily disapprove -women have to be nude around one another in in the whirlpools and showers! Men have to be nude in their section around one another! It’s amazing we didn’t all turn gay and decide to adopt kids together (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).

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Some people have insisted on saying the question here really is “Is 2 mommies better or worse than a mommy and a daddy, etc?”

And then they go on to say, OF COURSE a mommy and daddy are better but that doesn’t mean 2 mommies can’t raise great kids.

Therein lies the truth, doesn’t it? If 2 mommies can raise great kids then OF COURSE they’re as good parents and as beneficial as a mommy and a daddy.

I firmly repudiate the notion that a mommy and a daddy is superior. I think a lot of you mommies and daddies must feel threatened that your extremely important role in YOUR kids lives is not special or unique…that you might be replaceable. Well, that’s not true. No matter if you’re in a mommy-only, daddy-only, mommy+daddy, mommy*2, or daddy*2 YOU are the most important person in your child’s life for a long, long, long time, maybe they’re entire lives (probably you will be surplanted when they have their own kids).

So, chill, you’re still important.

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@ Jeff “I’ll back off the all single moms comment when some of these women back off the all single moms are saints stance. ” I am a NOT a saint I am a single mom.

Do you read anything I write? I admit to sex outside the bounds of marriage (or even in a few rare instances committed relationships) but be clear I do NOT have sleepovers if the kids are home, I admitted whatever day Tiger asked to not being a virgin when I married, I have admitted in the past to sex at 18 (then I abstained until I was 21). I drive too fast sometimes, sometimes I allow ice cream for dinner (nothing but ice cream), somtimes I don’t make the kids get dressed all day (PJ day!!!!).

Sure, I will tell you that my ex walked out (he did). I will tell you that I filed for divorce. I will tell you he quit seeing his kids because he decided drugs were more important (but he still spoke them on the phone), he stopped paying his child support, he is an alcoholic and due to these things he has consequences including supervised visitation rights. These are FACTS. I have supporting evidence in boxes and court documents.

Now, this part you might be surprised about. I like men. I like relationships with men that don’t include physical things. I like talking to men. On rare occasions I even like to speak to my ex but never for long. I do not blame men for my plight. I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to find the right person and do the marriage thing right this time (hey a girl can hope right?).

I do however think a single parent — and not all are due to divorce–do have a harder time than others. There is nobody else here to help when the kids get nuts. When I was running 104 and my folks were out of town there was nobody to do for the kids so I get rest and get over it. For the record I did feed and take care of them although I crawled from room to room, sat in a chair to make food, and laid on a mat on the floor while they played..

It is only me in the school meetings, it is only me at the soccer games, it is and always is only me. That doesn’t make me a saint (I would argue it could make you insane) but it does make me a dedicated PARENT. I PARENT my children.

So yeah, you should back off. Not all ex husbands are scum. In fact I know several Dads who are active in the kids lives AFTER the divorce. One Dad I recently met has his kids 3 days a week–every week!

If I can say after an abusive relationship (and I had a dot matrix printer thrown at me among other things) that not all men are deadbeat dads and scum. YOU certainly could get over your bitterness about Single Moms.

We single PARENTS sure aren’t trying for sainthood, but we could use a bit of respect for doing the job of two people!

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@Richard … You appear to know a lot about religion.. I would be very interested in your views.. Seriously…. My dad passed away 10 weeks ago and I question a lot …. If you have no interest in talking to me I understand… if you do let me know on the blog and I will post my alternate email …

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@FCM – sounds like you do ALOT of sinning on a regular basis. Do you pray to God for forgiveness each and every time? You know, you go screw a guy and beg for forgiveness. Next week you do it again and go beg for forgiveness. Keep this habit up and you’re not truly begging for forgiveness (meaning you promise not to commit the sin again), you’re just mouthing to God.

God’s not stupid – he knows your heart and he knows if you are sincere about wanting forgiveness.

Stop the sin and get closer to God – before it’s to late.

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@Realist -I guess you consider sex to be a sin. I think that’s one of the biggest problems in this world! Sex isn’t a sin in my book. In fact, the reason I DO NOT think it’s a sin is because I KNOW God isn’t “stupid!” Only stupidity would allow people to believe the very act that creates us (which makes us as close to God as we can actually get) is sinful. As far as homosexual sex goes -why does ANYONE have the impulse and why does it feel good to them if it’s so horrible? Why is sex so pleasurable if it’s SO sinful? It all goes back to the Middle Ages/Puritan idea that anything pleasurable is wrong in God’s eyes. How sad is that? Oh yeah -I think hell is just make believe too…

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When people say man-woman is “nature’s way,” what does that mean? If we let “nature” dictate, that cuts out eating with utensils, writing, driving, using toilets, and passing laws. What makes us human is the ability to use REASON and higher intelligence to make decisions. The same people who claim the Bible lets humans out of the evolutionary cycle are the same ones hollering about how we need to follow “nature.” Not logical, Captain!!!

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Okay I am not wasting my time with the ignorance on here today but I gotta tell you that I find it so hysterical that people have time to spend all day on a blog. I’ll leave you with this…WE ARE EVERYWHERE! We just might show up in Cobb County and we’ll see you at your favorite Applebee’s for your big family night out or you might have your kids at the park and you might have to see lesbians with their children. Don’t worry we don’t bite and it doesn’t rub off. You see we just want to live our lives and raise our children. We aren’t spreading some form of perversion that’s going to cause harm to your children or your way of life. Raise your kids the way you want. We’ll do the same but DON’T feel sorry for my kid and don’t you dare pray for my kid or show her pity. She is outstanding and amazing and headed for greatness. That is what makes the world a beautiful place and the kind of place that I want to raise children in. Good luck to you “regulars” on this blog as you like to call yourselves. I call you sad, petty, judgemental and quite frankly my friends and I have been laughing at you all night!

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@2moms..Thank you again for your last post..Just one thing I would like to ask and please don’t take offense to this..Please don’t be upset at some that you might overhear telling our little ones why some kids have 2 Mommies or Daddies..As I said in another post, I don’t care what sex the 2 parents are, as long as they are good parents..My 2 little ones ask a lot of questions about things that they see while we are out and I try to be as honest with them as possible..So again, thank you for doing the good job that it appears that you are doing and have a great life..

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Realist to continually repent with an untrue heart is an abomination to the Lord and much worse than my sinning. What I tell God is between me and Him and absolutely NONE of your concern. Nice to know that He put you on his court of judges, must be nice to be sinless. Glass houses don’t you know. Now go back and read the real point of what I said.

OH and Good try Jane!

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@ Tiger…yeah it sounds like it could be. If not oh LORD we got two of them!!!!!!

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@FMC….maybe Betsy is another alter ego…..

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Tiger, “…if loving you is wrong, I don’t want to be right…” you don’t have to (all due) respect me. this forum is (theorhetically) for parents to exchange ideas about parenting. I realize I am a new guy (not a reveered “regular”). I understand the concept of “annoying”. I experience it every time some lemming starts chirping about his/her god, or abominations, or second comings. if people choose to employe these concepts in their parenting, more power to you, but the orginal (rhetorical) question was about same-sex couples as parents, not the Lord’s take on homosexuals or gay marriage. as with the United States (and as echoed by 2moms, Timmy, and a couple others), the “regulars” (Bible-thumpers) don’t “own” this blog or this country.

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“why would a person care enough about what an omnipotent, all powerful, creator of all think, but also “think” he/she can offer insincere apologies for past behaviors?” Um that is why it is an abomination because your saying you can fool him…get it?

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FCM, I’m sorry, perhaps I didn’t articulate my point. if this god is all-knowing why do people even feel the need to “talk” to him or to confess sins. if he knows, he knows; case closed. classifying such irrational behavior as “an abomination” suggests to me that on the 7th day man created god in HIS image in likeness (ever notice how god’s ‘values’ and behavior seem to reflect the values and behaviors of man? well, all except for the behaviors god prohibits.

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Judge not lest ye be judged…Realist if your right I might share the SPF with you.

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Two parents are always better than one — and for children, the best gift we can give them is a happy marriage (legal or not) — make yours a priority — for a little inspiration and motivation keep handy “A Short Guide to a Happy Marriage” (Boston Globe #1 pick) — find at borders, amazon, etc. — come by and visit @ http://www.ashortguidetoahappymarriage.com

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FCM, when did “guilt” enter the picture. you know “god loves you because he made you” and god is all-knowing (”he sees you when you’re sleeping, he knows when you’re awake…”), BUT you still feel “guilt” when you mess up? and you don’t understand why this confuses me? did your god create “guilt”? of course not. guilt was created by people like Realist (homosapiens) and the clergy (”men of god”) to shape human behavior. why would god create us, but allow us to suffer with guilt? seems to me he could have just filled up heaven with a bunch of “good” people and spared us all this experiment in morality/ethics.

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let me rephrase that..what do you think happens when a person dies? Do you think there is continuance of anything?

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Richard go find where I said I pray for forgiveness…that was what Realist et all were saying.

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FCM

January 29th, 2010
10:30 am
Realist to continually repent with an untrue heart is an abomination to the Lord and much worse than my sinning. What I tell God is between me and Him and absolutely NONE of your concern. Nice to know that He put you on his court of judges, must be nice to be sinless. Glass houses don’t you know. Now go back and read the real point of what I said.

Yep no taling about asking for forgivness in that.

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FCM, at 3:15 you posted: “Richard the way I understand it we confess our misdeeds to help US with the guilt not actually get the forgiveness. God loves me becuase he made me.” Sounds to me you “confess” to help with “guilt”.

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@UCONN….here’s what I believe…if it’s simple enough for someone to tell me what happens when you die…that’s probably not it.

I’ll make one exception to that rule, which is you die..and that’s it….no soul, no spirit, nada, snuffed out like the flame on candle. That’s the only theory that’s been presented to me that I can think is plausible. That’s not to say it’s right…it’s just SO tidy and simple that it makes sense to me.

On a side note…I really HOPE it’s not right….because I really do have a fun time living and I wouldn’t mind doing it all over again!

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Tiger & Richard I would love to sit and talk to you both at bar, a beach or wherever.

I have many beliefs that you might find surprising:

No Hell
Coded DNA to seek to touch the Noodly Appendage
No Predestination
That Buddhist, Christians, Jews, etc (well not those worshiping satan) are actually talking about the same thing The reason they have differences go back to what Richard keeps rambling about Man inventions
The 144,000 in Revelations are the not the onlys that “get there” (nope don’t know exactly where there is and cannot find it on a map)
That Prayer does connect to us the Supreme Being whatever He/She maybe called
That despite the fact I do not believe exactly the way people like Realist ect do I am part of a “We” in the larger body as opposed to those (like Richard) who seem to insist that their is no body to be part of
I believe it is about the relationships
I believe that the Covenant is renewed every day and it is we (MAN this time) that need it that way because it is we (again just Man not a faith) that break it.

Richard I am not going to sit and defend ANYTHING to you.

Tiger appreciate that you “get it” that I am allowed to believe and not be judged by the likes of Richard or Realist. Just as they are allowed to believe what they do in the same way.

The funny thing is I often get accused of being the ugly trouble maker with this kind of thing…yet go find before I called Realist and idiot (for which I apologize because I should not be judging) that was nearly as mean and unrelenting sanctimonous about anything they said.

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@FCM…I can understand getting to the breaking point with some like Realist. I posted a rant for the ages to Betsy today. I usually try to stay away from the personal attacks, but sometimes you have to become the beast to fight the beast, you know?

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A few weeks ago I was putting kids in cars when a woman came up for “Susie”. I was puzzled, as Susie had already been picked up by a woman that I see her with frequently. I thought she was Susie’s aunt. I responded to Mom, “Susie has already been picked up by the other lady” and she corrected me, “That was my partner, Susie’s other mom” First time in 38 years (that I am aware of) that I have had that happen. I just had never thought about it (NOT MY BUSINESS ANYWAY)

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I think it takes a mom and a dad to raise a child. A daughter needs a father to build self esteem and her mother to teach her the ways of being a women. A son needs a mother to show him love and caring ways and a father to teach him how to be a man. Same sex parents do not give both the physical and emotional needs of a child that is needed by both sexes.

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