Is masturbation an OK topic for high school lit class?
A high school teacher in the Bronx has been suspended after assigning his 11th grade class a short story about masturbation.
The story is “Guts” by “Fight Club” author Chuck Palahniuk. I’ve heard of “Fight Club” the movie – Brad Pitt, Edward Norton. I’ve never heard of “Guts” or that specific author.
Here are two different stories with information about what happened:
The first is from Gawker and has an actual quote from the book so you can judge whether the content was appropriate or not.
The second is from the Gothamist and focuses on the reaction to what happened.
You need to read the quote from the book on the Gawker site to be able to fully participate in the discussion. I’m pretty sure I would get into trouble if I posted the actual quote here.
If you’ve read the quote consider a couple of points:
First off, I’m confused. Does that act qualify as masturbation? To me that takes it to a different level than say in Judy Blume’s “Deenie,” where the character talks about rubbing herself in the bathtub.
Secondly, do you think the appropriateness of course work should be determined by geography? It was suggested several times on the Gothamist blog that it’s the Bronx not Kentucky – those kids should be able to handle it.
Is masturbation an appropriate topic in a high school literature class? Does it depend on where the students are physically located? Does it depend on how explicit the masturbation is described? Should this teacher have been suspended? Should he be fired? What would you do if this story was on your child’s curriculum?
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117 comments Add your comment
lakerat
November 11th, 2009
7:24 am
You know, this is getting to be too much (I was going to say out of hand, but that would be an inappropriate comment, so to speak) – I am no prude, but these high school topic are just too far out there to even be discussed, yet they are true.
Yesterday I was reading about how many high schools have have gay and lesbian clubs – my question is, when I was in school, we wondered about sex and how to go about being successful “getting some”, both guys and girls – today, at the age of 13 – 18, how do kids “know” they are gay when they really haven’t had the chance to even know what physical sex is really like?
Now, today I am reading about how a teacher assigned something that has to do with masturbation. We all know kids and adults do it, but do we really have to teach about it in the classroom?
As you can probably tell, I am in utter shock that this is a topic for us parents to discuss, much less to have high school students discuss in a formal classroom setting! Yes, the teacher should be fired, and if he/she is not, then the administrators at that school and in that district should be fired, too!
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
7:26 am
I know it is 2009 but I personally do not think masturbation is a topic for kids in school….maybe just me. I also realize that my opinion probably will not count.
What happened to the days...
November 11th, 2009
7:26 am
…when June Cleaver said to Ward Cleaver, “weren’t you a little hard on the beaver last night”, and no thought anything other than that she was saying that he may have yelled at their son too much?
Vork
November 11th, 2009
7:37 am
I think any topic that gets teens to open up, get off their iPod and engage in actual conversaton is a good topic. Even if that topic is controversial.
Vork
November 11th, 2009
7:40 am
I also think that some of you have become soo old that you have outlived your usefullness on the planet.
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
7:50 am
@Vork you may be correct but some of us older folks are still paying taxes and they seem to be useful in a day and age where getting is popular and giving is not.
Like I tell my kids…there is not a magic tree that money can be picked off of for all the government sponsored programs….if decisions are made to give things to a lot of people, then LOTS of things will be taken from others.
Unless you are ready to give more and more, you need to VOTE. Of course, you can just sit back and get….if that floats your boat.
It appears my taxes are still useful and looks like they will be for a while! Theresa…are we talking about PUBLIC taxpayer school hear…I assume so!
Theresa Walsh Giarrusso
November 11th, 2009
7:50 am
Vork — did you read the quote — that’s far more serious stuff than just the run-of -the mill teen masturbation.
DB
November 11th, 2009
7:58 am
*sigh* — Vork, why do you deliberately try to antagonize? Is this blog your daily bit of mental masturbation?
I’m just trying to figure out the teacher’s lesson plan for this particular story. Silly me, I thought that English Lit was to explore various writing styles and types of self-expression, and to appreciate different story-telling techniques and classic methods of expression. I would NOT go to English Lit and expect a discussion on various methods of masturbation (especially one that can actually cause physical damage). That’s for sex ed, psychology, biology, human sexuality — whatever.
Just because it’s written down, doesn’t mean that it’s LITERATURE. Methinks this English teacher likes to shock just a little too much. What, exactly, is he “teaching”, here?
Vork
November 11th, 2009
8:04 am
@Theresa Walsh Giarrusso
Yes I read the quote and again nothing suprises me anymore so I say again so what? You are focusing on ONE QUOTE from a book that is getting teenager’s to talk in open conversation with each other…..I see NOTHING wrong with this.
As a father of two small children I see nothing wrong with my kids discussing this topic openly in high school because I believe they will be mature enough to handle it.
It’s when people freak out and get all shock and awe that the topic really gets attention. Sometimes if you simply ignore it people will simply say, meh, and move on….no big deal.
@motherjanegoose
WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS TOPIC HAVE TO DO WITH PAYING TAXES, OR VOTING?????!!!!
Is this a case of you don’t have anything constructive to contribute but you feel the need to say SOMETHING so you decide to pull something out of your ass? Stay on topic dear…..focus.
guy
November 11th, 2009
8:13 am
if the only reason you are useful is because you pay taxes, you pretty much proved the guy’s point. and what the hell does this topic have to do with taxes, voting, and politics?
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
8:15 am
@ Vork…YOU are the one who said we are not useful…I PAY TAXES and they appear to be useful.
If ( as you say) we are all too old and out of date and you do not need our taxes…we would be thrilled. This topic alone has nothing to do with taxes but there are many of us who appear to have outlived our usefulness ( in your opinion) and are keeping the USA afloat WITH our taxes..plus I do believe this is a PUBLIC school. If it were private, then it is the business of those who pay tuition to send their kids to the school ….AHEM tax dollars pay for public school.
” I also think that some of you have become so old that you have outlived your usefulness on the planet.”
My original post was to the point …once you start stirring things up….I tend to have other things to share.
MomsRule
November 11th, 2009
8:16 am
Was masturbation the topic of the short story? While I personally don’t like the quote it is not nearly enough information for me to know what the story is actually about.
Vork, I enjoy your daily comments.
Theresa Walsh Giarrusso
November 11th, 2009
8:17 am
The story was apparently all about failed masturbation attempts. so I think at least according to that description there would have been more similar anecdotes of this guy trying —
Kathy
November 11th, 2009
8:17 am
I had the same thought as DB…..what was the actual purpose for using that particular piece? What was his lesson plan? I am sure there is another side to this story. Neither article made it clear about the teacher’s actual purpose.
Vork….I agree with you that anytime you get a teen to talk is good, but teachers have to be very careful about what controversial topics they present in the classroom.
This is off topic, but I just have to bring it up. What about the Barrow County high school teacher who had an inappropriate Facebook page (article in the Gwinnett Daily Post)? I am not a Facebook user but I am interested to know how other parents feel about teachers having Facebook pages. How would you react if you or your child found something inappropriate on your child’s teacher’s Facebook page?
Geez, Vork and Guy...
November 11th, 2009
8:18 am
…Vork wrote “I also think that some of you have become soo old that you have outlived your usefullness on the planet” –
motherjanegoose responded that she was STILL useful because she still paid taxes – her comment was directly related to what Vork had written -
Maybe you guys need to COMPREHEND the written word before you go attacking what someone else wrote.
Vork
November 11th, 2009
8:20 am
@motherjanegoose
When you start making sense I’ll acknowledge you exist. Until then you might as well be an adult in a Peanuts cartoon as far as I’m concerned.
madmommy
November 11th, 2009
8:26 am
I think the teachers point was to show in English Lit how creative writing can be used to get the reader to fully understand and visualize the situation. Granteed, I don’t think this was the best topic to do that in, but I do see the educational merits and they must have thought this is a topic the students would focus in on. These are 11th graders and most are 16-17 at this stage and I’m sure have thought about or attempted to be masters of their domain once or twice, so it might not have been a huge issue for them. Kids today are way more advanced than I was at that age, so while it might seem wild and crazy to me, it more the norm for kids these days. Don’t believe me, check out the Tenth Circle by Jodi Picoult and get a real eye opener on how kids today are.
Uconn
November 11th, 2009
8:28 am
GOOD LAWDDDD… Did anyone ever read “The Catcher in the Rye”? This one line is nothing compared to what is in the book… As long as kids are reading what difference does it make? I went to a catholic high school and we had to read all the ones that are banned in other schools … These are 16-17 year olds who I am sure know more than this.
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
8:29 am
Thanks GEEZ. I thought I made perfect sense but apparently I did not. I use analogies all the time in my work and many tell me I am good at them.
GUY…here is a tip….MANY of us who pay taxes are working and earning money because of our USEFUL skill.. Perhaps that is too complicated for the posters who just take jabs
THOSE WHO ARE SIMPLY TAKING OUT MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT may not be as useful…in fact, if we got rid of them ….what difference would it make to the economy? We are providing goods and services and they are providing nothing. Guess there might be some use for us…..hmmmm.
FYI…I AM NOT TAKING A JAB AT ANYONE WHO IS UNFORTUNATELY UNEMPLOYED….I AM SPEAKING OF THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN EMPLOYED NOR HAVE PLANS TO BE.
If you have worked….you deserve your benefits and I wish you well finding a job.
Have fun all!
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
8:31 am
@ Vork….ditto…I do not work for you….thankfully, and you do not have to pay me…I know that thrills you!
Mia
November 11th, 2009
8:32 am
First off, teens are reading the book. Not too long ago some people on here were complaining that their teens weren’t reading – careful what ye wish for! Secondly, this is a healthy topic that’s encouraging teens to have discussions and conversations, which can only be a good thing.
They’re 11th graders, they’re in the final stretch of school and preparing to venture out into the big bad world, where there’ll deal with a lot more pressing issues than masturbation. These kids are more sexually aware than we were growing up, why not let them know all the facts?
jct
November 11th, 2009
8:32 am
I read the quote but the whole story. I don’t want to over react without reading the whole story because we don’t have the entire context in what the lesson was about. Was it writing style? Type of short story? It is easy for us on a blog to try to Monday morning quarterback this situation. Is this any better than Romeo and Juliet? Remember Shakespeare? That is a very graphic piece of literature.
@lakerat – Your argument is flawed. Sexual orientation and sex have nothing to do with each other. You can be celibate your whole life and still be attracted to someone of your same sex. That does not make you any less gay. You don’t figure out your sexual orientation by having physical sex.
jct
November 11th, 2009
8:34 am
@Uconn…I have been meaning to ask you do you attend Uconn or you just a fan? I am class of ‘92.
Mia
November 11th, 2009
8:35 am
Oops typos………..”where they’ll deal with a lot more issues”
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
8:45 am
By the way….did anyone check out the wonderful resource Candi gave at the end of the babysitting post yesterday? Many were fussing on pricing but she provided facts about the topic that apply to all areas. I am all about opinions and do enjoy ( for the most part) reading them but when some of us get in a dither, it is good for posters to prevent some straight facts we can use as a
plumbline ( sp?)
I only have an opinion for today and stated it concisely before I was attacked. Perhaps some posters can come up with some facts we need to know.
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
8:51 am
ooops…present some straight facts…..
Uconn
November 11th, 2009
8:53 am
@jct – Graduated in 98… YAY!!!! A Fellow Husky!!!!
lakerat
November 11th, 2009
9:05 am
jct – I believe your thinking is flawed if you think sexual orientation has nothing to do with actual sexual acts. Why would anyone care to say they are gay or straight if they are celibate?
You are not “gay” or “lesbian” until you do the deed! You can be celibate, and if you are, you are neither gay nor straight, as you have NO SEXUAL inclination. Personal relationships are not the result SEXUAL preference, as many gays/lesbians have straight friends, and vice versa.
jct
November 11th, 2009
9:25 am
@lakerat. You and I will have to disagree.
Sexual orientation deals is who you are attracted to. You may be attracted to men and I may be attracted to women. I did not have sex with anyone to figure that out.
Celibacy is choosing not to have sex. You could choose not have sex because you are waiting for marriage or you lack sexual partner that you are attracted to. Again. This has nothing to do with orientation. You could be attracted to men but choose not to have sex that EQUALS celibacy.
I think that it is crazy to say you have to do the deed to be gay or lesbian. What about those experimental times that nobody wants to talk about in college or late teens. You kiss a girl. That does not make you a lesbian. That made you curious. What makes you a lesbian is that you are attracted to women and form relationships with women and have sex with women.
Friendship is a whole other realm that has nothing to do with anyone’s sexuality.
lakerat
November 11th, 2009
9:29 am
Well, at least you are correct that we can agree to disagree.
Hey, Uconn – is a “Fellow Huskey” different from a huskey fellow?
Andrea
November 11th, 2009
9:35 am
A controversial or not popular topic does not automatically make it any less worthy to be read. In hindsight, I am sure the administration would have probably sent home consent forms first. The purpose of English Lit class is for the kids to actually read and discuss books. It should not be to discuss books that are deemed appropriate by the self-appointed moral majority.
We can’t say that the teacher did not intend to discuss the literary style or some other aspects with the students. Obviously the book was longer than just the one sentence featured so there is room for other aspects of the book to be discussed.
One thing any parent SHOULD know by now is that you can either equip your child with good information or he/she will certainly get plenty of misinformation in the streets.
Uconn
November 11th, 2009
9:40 am
@lakerat … Yep… jct is A husky … not husky … The husky is Uconn’s mascot
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
9:46 am
@Andrea…you are absolutely correct about equipping. I have been very frank with my own two.
I will answer any question they have.
How about this….let’s say you are not a religious person….yet your child is friends with a family who are religious zealots. You have stated your opinion clearly to your child. Are you comfortable with them spending time with the family of the friend? Or would you be uncomfortable. Same as those parents who may be uncomfortable with a masturbation discussion in a HS class.
Would a Muslim send their child to a Catholic school? I realize I am talking about religion and that this is a public school but parents ( who pay taxes) of these children may need to be informed of controversial subjects.
Would this be much different than an art class studying nudes? I am FULLY aware that children can see most anything on the internet today but would not want my school aged children in a class where nudes ( while this is art as the above is literature) are being displayed.
Can we use the excuse; IF IT GETS THEM TO APPRECIATE ART….then good. You may have lots more teen boys in THAT art class.
I KNOW SOME OF YOU WILL NOT GET THAT ILLUSTRATION…some will!
Outta here and will check back in later….have fun!
HB
November 11th, 2009
9:48 am
I don’t think books should be automatically disallowed from the curriculum because they include references to masturbation, or anything else for that matter. Without having read the full story and lesson plan, I don’t know if this work was approprate or not fot the class. It could be that this teacher went overboard in trying to shock the students and get them interested in the class, or the work and the accompanying assignments he gave may have had merit. I think the real danger in these situations is that often parents and admins will be quick to condemn a teacher at the first hint of controversy rather than dig a little deeper to find out what was really being taught. I’m not saying that’s what happened here (I have no idea), but it is a problem.
The Barrow County teacher’s FB page is a great example. It was deemed inappropriate, in part, because there was a picture of the teacher drinking alcohol — not abusing alcohol, from what I’ve read, but drinking a glass of wine while on vacation in Europe. Are high school kids really that fragile? Can they not handle knowing that people drink alcohol? I mean, if she were doing keg stands or had a beer funnel, I could see someone feeling she set a bad example, but a glass of wine?
MJG, my ill father has not been able to contribute directly to the economy in 30+ years, and only spent 5-7 years in the workforce. Many struck with his disease will never work at all as it often hits in the late teens to early 20s. And yes, he receives government benefits that ensure he is sheltered, fed, and on meds that keep him from wandering around homeless and talking to himself. I have never, ever thought of him as useless, though. Thanks for the enlightenment.
lakerat
November 11th, 2009
9:48 am
If Uconn is the “Huskies” then is there really a singular for Huskies?
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
9:48 am
@ uconn…are we disputing HUSKEY vs HUSKY….now I am confused with your last post…hahaha!
Hugs to you…I am not jabbing…..
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
9:56 am
@ HB….I am not talking about those in your father’s situation. I am talking about those who are able to work….I apologize if I offended you.
I know that you and I disagree on the realm of those out there who are taking when they could be giving. I see it all the time and educators continue to affirm that there is a growing trend of those adults and children who think that they are owed something when they are not willing to contribute….even if they can. Adults who have a chip on their shoulder against the rich folks who pay taxes…IMHO need to get over it. I am not rich. Maybe Becky might add some insight on a few folks who could be working…I believe she has mentioned that she is related to them.
I work and pay taxes and like Andrea said:
One thing any parent SHOULD know by now is that you can either equip your child with good information or he/she will certainly get plenty of misinformation in the streets.
I have equipped my children with the fact that no one owes them anything…contrary to popular belief. If they are able to work, then they need to do so. Our society is built on those who can make a contribution and we owe assistance to those who REALLY cannot.
We rarely agree and when we do, I find it an interesting day….again, I did NOT mean those who CANNOT work, such as your father.
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
9:58 am
@ Becky….I KNOW you are a hard worker and am just recanting what I feel you have already shared….hugs to you!
JATL
November 11th, 2009
10:01 am
I really can’t believe anyone who has any clue about high school students today would think this was so horrible and shocking for them to read. Almost all of them are sexually active themselves or REALLY trying to be. They read raunchy books for pleasure that have a lot more graphic things than this in them, not to mention what they see on tv and in movies. I used to be a high school English teacher, and I wouldn’t personally choose this because I know everyone stands on their heads over such trite nonsense -and often it isn’t because parents complain, but because some busybody at the school overhears something and complains! Still, to FIRE a teacher over something like this is insane! It’s a line in a story. At least knowing about it may get some kids interested!
Anyway, I don’t think it’s THE most appropriate material for a high school classroom, but often you have special classes who you know can handle certain things. I haven’t read the story, but perhaps this kid is questioning his sexuality and wondering if he would be turned on in this manner?
@lakerat -you don’t think high schoolers have experimented with sex? They start in middle school these days! I also don’t understand your reasoning about having to experiment physically with sex in order to know what turns you on. Did you not know if you were gay or straight until you had (presumably) straight sex for the first time? You’re attracted to people first, right? Well, if you’re a teenager and you’re attracted to the same sex, it’s still a pretty scary world to live in. The clubs exist because it gives kids an opportunity to band together and know they’re not the only people in their whole high school who feels the way they do. Suicide rates are extremely high among LBGT teens, and quite honestly they need all the help they can get. I’m not saying people don’t question their sexuality or experiment on into adulthood with all the physical stuff, but when puberty hits (and sometimes before) kids really start to have an inkling about who and what kind of person they like.
Uconn
November 11th, 2009
10:03 am
Hmmmm… Now I am confused. I have always spelled it “husky” and the plural was Huskies… You know drop the “y” and add “ies”, but if there was a vowel in front of the “y” a “s” could just be added. So I am going with Husky and Huskies… (sorry for the grammar lesson!) no offense taken.. Now I am going to figure this out!
Uconn
November 11th, 2009
10:04 am
Ok not that 99.9% of you care…. This is from Uconn’s website… Husky Pride. Huskymania.
lakerat
November 11th, 2009
10:06 am
jct -
You should have stopped when I agreed with you to disagree! You are completely misguided, so I will not comment further.
notgonnagiveit
November 11th, 2009
10:06 am
@ Theresa…is there any way you can stop idiots like Vork from commenting? Obviously Vork is a depressed teen who is living in the basement and struggling for validity in this world. The comments here are frequently inappropriate and rude and really add nothing to the discussion other than ‘this topic is not really worth discussing and you all are prudes for even thinking about it.’ It would do your threads well to be without Vork.
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
10:07 am
One last thought and then I am REALLY out of here…
Yesterday, I was told to leave economics to the big girls…so
BIG GIRLS….if our country is made of 90% takers and 10% givers ( or 75% and 25%)….at what point does ‘OUR COUNTRY become useless? I am serious and will check in later.
As a business owner I do understand the economics of profit and loss.
This is from the UConn website...
November 11th, 2009
10:08 am
..the UConn Huskies…and from Wikipedia, “UConn, known as the Huskies”…
jct
November 11th, 2009
10:09 am
Lakerat – if Uconn and I hang out we would be HUSKIES. If alone I would be HUSKY. LOL
JATL
November 11th, 2009
10:12 am
@lakerat -just read your comments to jct, and I’m astounded at your supposed reasoning! You really think that anyone who is celibate cannot be straight or gay? People choose celibacy for a host of issues, but that doesn’t mean they’re never attracted to anyone! Some people also don’t “choose” celibacy, but they never have sex because of physical appearance, personality, unwillingness to pay for it, etc. It doesn’t mean they don’t want to have some type of sex!
Vork
November 11th, 2009
10:15 am
@notgonnagiveit
LOL yeah, good luck with that.
If you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen.
Uconn
November 11th, 2009
10:17 am
@jct… Thank you! that’s what I was trying to say in a round about way! :) Funny how this went from a book with masturbation to how to spell huskies LOL…
Ah, motherjanegoose...
November 11th, 2009
10:19 am
…you lost all financial credibility yesterday when you stated that at a recent seminar where you were the featured speaker there were more than 100 extra people who attended, at $50 per person, but you did not make one dime more. In that instant you are not talking about economics or finance, but about contract law. Accordingly, if 100 fewer people had shown up, or if even no one had shown up, would you have refunded your fee? Hence, you were not due anymore money since more than expected attended.
You had entered into a contract to appear at such and such a time, for such and such money. You were there, they were they, and you were paid what you had agreed to via contract.
Hence, as stated previously, please leave the discussions regarding economics and finance to the big girls – just because you are a successful business owner does not mean you are a “fiancial guru”, or you would have had a clause in your contrat that would have allowed you to make more if the attendees at the seminar was above a certain % above what you were led to believe would attend, rather than trying to make us believe that it was altruistic of you to not seek additional compensation above what you had agreed to in writing. Hence, stick to the kiddie math that you are quite successful teaching.
Vork
November 11th, 2009
10:22 am
@Ah, motherjanegoose…
Remember….she’s an adult in a Peanuts cartoon……remember what they sounded like……that’s exactly what goes through my mind whenever she posts her mindless dribble.
Tina
November 11th, 2009
10:22 am
I for one like Vork’s comments….speak for yourself
lakerat
November 11th, 2009
10:22 am
But, jct, you are not really husky – LOL
And, Uconn, I was just thinking the same thing about how the topic had morphed into the Husky thing – my bad!
Uconn
November 11th, 2009
10:29 am
@lakerat… Its ok.. Kind of a light hearted thing compared to the topic at hand :) @jct … Lakerat is correct… you are a husky by yourself, not husky :)
FCM
November 11th, 2009
10:33 am
I think this whole topic went sideways about taxes and crap.
MJG if you had not taken the bait from Vork then it would have been fine. He didn’t say whom he thought had outlived usefulness…the FACT that you responded means you identified with it.
Shooot I can be 103 and traveling in Spain – being paid for my wisdom of 103 years — and still be useful and respond to topics on this blog. Or I could be the mom of 2 sitting in Atlanta, being paid to not deliver my opinions but facts to clients….still useful and still responding.
I would have to read the whole book. I am not going to respond based on quote. I will agree that if the guy gets the kids talking he is doing better than most teachers.
Notgonnagiveit I like hearing from MJG and Vork thank you very much.
HB
November 11th, 2009
10:34 am
A few facts on poverty including that the vast majority of low income families are working families: http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/411900_LIWF_fact_sheet.pdf
Vork
November 11th, 2009
10:40 am
@FCM
Thank you.
JATL
November 11th, 2009
10:42 am
I, too, enjoy Vork and MJG!
Uconn
November 11th, 2009
10:45 am
I like seeing what EVERYONE has to say whether I agree or not
Meme
November 11th, 2009
10:45 am
As a prude and a teacher I have always said that I do not discuss sex, politics or religion with my students. Of course I teach middle school and not high school.
DB
November 11th, 2009
10:46 am
Ok, I’ve thought about this for a while, and I keep seeing a similar thread throughout the “pro” arguments — “they’re doing it anyway, trying to hide it is silly, they read much worse elsewhere,” etc. This smacks very much of the old argument, “But everyone else is doing it!” It never held much water with me before and it doesn’t now, either.
Comments like that make me sad. Education is supposed to lift you up, inspire, inform and teach you how to think. I personally don’t see where a discussion about sticking carrots where the sun don’t shine does any of this. It just seems to be catering to a steadily lowering standard of behavioral expectations, and blurs the lines between what private and public behavior (which are pretty darn blurred these days, between Facebook and constant texting, etc.) Masturbation isn’t new. Sex isn’t new, and I’m at the point in my life where I’m a little impatient with people who try to use human sexuality for shock value of questionable taste.
Truthfully, though, I found the scene in “The Giver” where the father euthanizes the smaller twin and throws it down the trash chute to be FAR more disturbing than musing about the myriad uses of carrots to jack off. It certainly created interesting opportunties for discussion with my then-4th grader.
Irrelevant
November 11th, 2009
10:55 am
I cried when the kid had to shoot Old Yeller.
Irrelevant
November 11th, 2009
11:02 am
“Hey baby, can I get some fries with that shake?” You know who doesn’t have a sense of humour? Epileptics.
Kelly
November 11th, 2009
11:03 am
I rather read the entire book than a quote before passing judgement. I do have to agree with others when they have said what was the lesson plan. How does this book fit into the rest of the class?
As a mother of a high school daughter, if this gets her to talk about real life issues, I am for it. If the subject of sex is mentioned at home, whether it be friends and I talking about how fake or real a movie/TV scene was, trying to help her realize that waiting is for the best, etc. she goes off with screaming UGH! and walks out of the room.
I also rather have teens masturbating than having sex. Less chance for diseases and teen pregnancies.
I also agree with the comment above about “The Catcher in the Rye.” I read the book as a child for my brother. He paid me to read it and tell him what it was about for his book report. The joys of having a brother 6 years older. I had to re-read it as a teen just to understand everything in the book. I still remember the argument between my mom and him when she discovered I had read most of the book and it was taken away from me.
The school system that I went to up North in my early years of school had the right idea. They gave parents a list of books that were required for reading and suggested reading for the high school students. This gave parents a chance to review the books and allow the kids to communicate more. I don’t recall parents ever saying that their children could not read a certain book.
On the other interesting topic mentioned for today…the teachers FB page. The teacher should of had more security settings on her page. However, I believe she should not had been forced to resign. She was on vacation. She was not abusing alcohol. So what if the page had an expletive listed with it. I am a FB users. You can set your friends into several different lists and post albums that only certain people can see. Maybe this is what she should had done. If I discovered my kids’ teachers had a FB page, I would not be upset unless I saw pics of the teacher in nude/semi nude or abusing drugs. These teachers have a right to have a life and connect to their friends also.
DB
November 11th, 2009
11:05 am
Kathy: Regarding the teachers Facebook page. Apparently it was a policy at our children’s school (private) that teachers were not to “friend” students. It was presented as a line that the administration felt needed to be drawn between professionals and students, and correctly assumed that kids didn’t need to know the private details of teachers’ lives (and the teachers probably didn’t want to hear about the kids’ lives, either!) But, when they graduated, both kids ended up FB friends with several of their favorite teachers — it still gives me a bit of a start when my daughter refers to her favorite teacher now by his first name (he’s young, and prefers his first name from the graduates.)
But during school? No way.
RedRabbit
November 11th, 2009
11:50 am
Maybe in light of our current President and Congress the teacher was simply trying to prepare his students to take it in the butt!
HB
November 11th, 2009
12:23 pm
DB, I agree that a policy that teachers not “friend” students can be reasonable. It can be a good tool for communicating with students and parents, though, but if they do, teachers should expect to be held accountable for what’s on the page. For example, I know a band director who appears to “friend” former and current students and their parents. He regularly posts band videos, status updates announcing rehearsal changes, “good job last night at halftime!” etc. I think that’s appropriate. Maybe the rule should be teachers must friend parents at their request if they have friended students, and no exchange of private messages between student and teachers be allowed at all.
The Barrow teacher had not friended students or parents and does not know who complained to the school.
Vork
November 11th, 2009
12:34 pm
Wow, thanks for the love @MomsRule, @Kathy, @Tina, @JATL, and again @FCM. You guys rock.
Be sure that I continue to do battle with the forces of evil in your honor….LOL
RJ
November 11th, 2009
12:48 pm
@Motherjanegoose to answer your question, yes a Muslim would and do send their kids to Catholic schools! They’ll even send them to vacation bible school! You should meet some you’d be surprised.
I’m with Kelly, I’d need to read the book before passing judgement.
Regarding the Facebook page, many school systems are addressing these social networks. It all depends on the policy of the school system. I still feel she didn’t do anything wrong.
ajay2009
November 11th, 2009
2:19 pm
Okay, just a correction, this is not a full length novel, its a short story that is part of a larger novel. I just read a more detailed summary of the story and the whole thing is just disturbing. Not because of the masturbation aspect but because of the self inflicted bodily harm experienced by the main character. It is reported that people routinely faint during readings of the story. I’d avoid the book and would not want my kid to read it for that reason.
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
2:44 pm
@ RJ thanks for the insight… I know a Christian Preschool that had parents who wanted to enroll their child. The parents told the director that they did not want him attending the chapel service.
She told him that all children attended….it was part of the curriculum. They did not enroll the child. I guess I was sharing and example on one specific instance. I do not work with many Muslims, as I am not familiar with them opening their own schools here in America. Perhaps that is why they attend other parochial schools? Are there Muslims schools in Metro Atlanta?
BIG GIRLS…who is answering the question I posed at @ 11:07…is anyone up to answering it?
I hear BIG TALK but no one is answering this question that you mention is above may well be beyond me. If you are a financial wizard ( and I am not) then please answer.
FYI…I never expected to make more for my speaking venue…when I agree to a price…so be it….I am not in commissioned sales. I typically flat fee my clients…easier for me.
@ FCM…I guess he was talking about lakerat then, as he posted after our two posts?
It does not take a many brain cells to determine who is at odds with whom on this blog. Please give me some credit for at least having that many…oh, yeah no one here has to give me any credit….sorry.
@redrabbit…maybe you can answer 11:07 my question as you do appear to have a handle on the concept of who is getting the shaft.
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
2:45 pm
FYI…the parents interested in the Christian school were Muslim…I left that out.
if our country is made of 90% takers and 10% givers ( or 75% and 25%)….at what point does ‘OUR COUNTRY become useless?
November 11th, 2009
2:55 pm
Depends – with the current administration it would never become useless since they believe all they have to do to sustain its usefulness is to continue to print money and give it away and pay back whoever will accept the paper upon which it is printed.
In other times, usefulness is no longer viable when the amount of money owed is overshadowed by our inability to keep the countries who have loaned the money to us happy with when and how we pay back their loans. And, based on historical perspective, no one knows when that might be.
motherjanegoose
November 11th, 2009
3:03 pm
THANKS!
It looks like about 1 out of 2 folks are actually paying the taxes.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/15/politics/otherpeoplesmoney/main4945874.shtml
Even if ( as HB pointed out) the vast majority of low income folks are working….if they pay NO taxes, is that effective to keep our country moving in a positive direction? Many of them are working but some of them get more back from the government than they actually earn, either in earned income, medical coverage or various programs such as food stamps etc.
I always thought that I had to put more into the piggy bank than I took out…this seems to be a opinion that many do not hold.
Any insight would be appreciated.
FCM
November 11th, 2009
3:16 pm
MJG he could have just been ‘fishing’ or shooting in the dark. He could have been meaning you or lakerat or even Theresa. However, the statement held no meaning as to ‘whom’ until some responded in defense. It’s about deciding to own the statement or not.
I don’t see your question of 11:07. What was it?
FCM
November 11th, 2009
3:20 pm
OH your questions are on taxes…well sure we can answer that however I point you to the plolitical blogs instead. Most everyone on the blog seems to hold a good job (or did until they were RIF’d) and pays their taxes.
If you don’t like the current way then elect some better represntatives to change it! (By the way my degree does relate to government and my experience relates to accounting).
Really
November 11th, 2009
3:24 pm
motherjanegoose, why are you still talking about taxes…that has absolutely NOTHING to do with today’s topic so get over it. tho it is amusing how you let Vork get to you…he commented early this morning and you are still going on about it…
DB
November 11th, 2009
3:26 pm
Musing: If one were a reasonably devout follower of your faith, why would you want your child to attend a school that espouses a faith very different from your own? Even if they manage to sit out chapel, there are going to be stories and references to that faith throughout the curriculum, as well as holiday celebrations, etc.
deidre_NC
November 11th, 2009
3:29 pm
@lakerat ‘You can be celibate, and if you are, you are neither gay nor straight, as you have NO SEXUAL inclination’ if you are celibate you are choosing not to have sex…doesnt mean you have no inclinations
From Wikipedia...
November 11th, 2009
3:40 pm
Lesbian is a term most widely used in the English language to describe sexual and romantic desire between females.[1] The word may be used as a noun, to refer to women who identify themselves or who are characterized by others as having the primary attribute of female homosexuality, or as an adjective, to describe characteristics of an object or activity related to female same-sex desire.
The term gay was originally used, until well into the mid-20th century, primarily to refer to feelings of being “carefree”, “happy”, or “bright and showy”; it had also come to acquire some connotations of “immorality” as early as 1637.The term later began to be used in reference to homosexuality, in particular, from the early 20th century, a usage that may have dated prior to the 19th century.[1] In modern English, gay has come to be used as an adjective, and occasionally as a noun, that refers to the people, practices, and culture associated with homosexuality. By the end of the 20th century the word gay was recommended by major style guides to describe people attracted to members of the same sex.
Emphasis in the use of both terms centers upon the activity involving sex, as in a sex act.
lakerat
November 11th, 2009
3:43 pm
deidre – I bscially agree with what you wrote re: celibacy; however, I maintain that you cannot be “gay” or “lesbian” without doing the sex act.
deidre_NC
November 11th, 2009
3:46 pm
DB i agree on why would parents of a certain religion want their kids to go to a schhol of a different religion..makes no sense to me. oh well lots makes no sense to me lol…
on topic-i too cant make a complete decision without reading the book-and unless it was required reading for a teen kid of mine i dont think i want to read it. just the couple of passages i read in theresa links were ..ummm…unappetizing i guess you could say. i know that kids know more than i did at the same age..sometimes i wondered who was educating whom in the sex talks my kids and i had…and we have talked about everything…even when it was uncomfortable for me…and they never knew it was i acted like it was fine lol…i wanted them to learn from ME not some porn movies or books..even tho im sure they have read their share (i guess they anyway)..we have talked about masturbation-gayness-celibacy-sluttiness-you name it. i thought we pretty much covered all the bases but wow i dont recall ever talking to them about getting off on a carrot…(now im laughing) maybe in their experimentation they would have discovered this on their own…that is really too much for me to want to know….i made sure they knew about safe sex-birth control-date rape-perils that can happen when you have sex and are not ready for the consequences….all that stuff…we have talked about orgasms…why you can have them always…are you supposed to? man we covered so many bases i cant believe we left out the carrots…
i would like to hear why this teacher had them read this book…story whatever…its hard to form an opinion without knowing why—did he have students trying stuff like this? did the students want to read it? id like to know the reasons
KB
November 11th, 2009
3:48 pm
MJG – you are the most childish person on this blog….grow up! Geez, I can’t believe people pay you to spout off :}
deidre_NC
November 11th, 2009
3:51 pm
@lakerat—i think that gay people would tell you differently…they are gay because they want to have sex with the same sex…being gay is what you are and how you feel not a sex act. the things you do..whether straight or gay are the sex acts…
deidre_NC
November 11th, 2009
3:52 pm
i have to say i dont think masturbation per se is a taboo topic for highschool classes…some kids learn everything they know from others..where better than school…im not sure about this book tho…it sounds pretty rough..
HB
November 11th, 2009
4:06 pm
MJG, if you read the article you posted, it says the increase in people not paying in taxes is due largely to tax cuts and credits benefiting middle class families — they have decent income, but the credits, such as for college, child care, first-time home buyers, and “clean cars,” and other cuts have gone so far that they owe no taxes or even get extra cash back. The increase does not seem to be primarily due to low-income families paying less and getting more than before, although in some cases, people reporting no income, can receive cashback even though no taxes are owed. I’m all for simplifying the tax code, though, and certainly do understand the point that the Brookings and Urban Institutes are making that tax cuts and credits can go too far.
RJ
November 11th, 2009
4:09 pm
@motherjanegoose there is Clara Muhammad. It’s extremely good and some of my Muslim friends kids attended the school. I’m sure there are others. It’s a shame that your friends pre-school wouldn’t allow students to miss chapel service. My former hairstylist is a Muslim from Africa. She told me how she attended a Catholic school but never went to mass.
Tiffany
November 11th, 2009
4:10 pm
I am more open minded than a lot of people- but the content of this lesson is really disturbing to me. I am not sure of the teacher’s intention here…but this material seems to be out of line for high schoolers, I don’t care what part of the USA they live in. A teacher has to use some common sense, and he had to have known that this might raise some eyebrows with parents and the administration. If he truly believed for some reason that this was an appropriate lesson for the kids, the teacher could have sent a letter home explaining the subject matter in advance and then parents could have signed a permission slip. I do not think he should be fired for this incident alone, however a meeting with the parents of these students would be in order to explain the situation. I have a high schooler myself and I fully believe in sex ed, but this was going too far.
To Lakerat: you don’t REALLY believe what you wrote about sexuality, do you? I assure you that people don’t have to have sex to know if they are gay or not.
Michelle
November 11th, 2009
4:52 pm
As many have said, without reading the book, I can’t say too much. However, in my personal opinion, if it is about normal curiosity, that might be one thing. If it is about inflicting pain, self mutilating, etc. I would have to say it is not appropriate in any way, shape or form. Kids at this age have a hard enough time sorting out what is “normal” for them. To have these types of things introduced just seems wrong.
Like I said, without reading the story, I can’t really say too much.
As for the teacher on FB, I don’t really think what she did was wrong. I would assume that if she is over the age of 21, she is of a legal age to drink. That is her right. If the picture was of her falling down drunk, half naked, with someone groping her, that might be a different story! How is a picture of her drinking, with an expletive written, any different than what a MAJORITY of kids are watching on TV or seeing at home on a daily basis?!
If a parent thinks that a teacher is any different than they are, they are sadly mistaken!! I think that if students can see their teachers, as adults, being responsible in their activity, that could be viewed as a good think and not bad!
dbl_uhoh_7
November 11th, 2009
5:30 pm
I say have the kids read the Bible….masturbation with a carrot is LIGHT reading compared to the rape, incest, genital mutilation, murder, adultery, betrayal, etc you can find in there!
Allen
November 11th, 2009
6:26 pm
Sex education generally, including masturbation, should absolutely be taught in schools . . . otherwise, how, or where or from whom is one to learn? Likewise, the fact that sexual orientation is not a choice should also be taught.
off_her_rocker
November 11th, 2009
6:29 pm
Um… If you haven’t read the whole short story (and not just the quote) I encourage you to do so before you comment. Just the quote in and of itself is not enough to form an opinion here. That being said, don’t read the story if you’re planning on eating any time in the near future. It is definitely not for the squeamish. Those who have made comments about the carrot, read the whole story. I don’t consider myself to be a prude, but, having read the whole short story I definitely don’t think it qualifies as literature fit for high school students. It’s actually rather disgusting (to put it mildly) and the carrot part is not the disgusting part. If you don’t want to read about a disemboweled boy, don’t read it.
Also, it should be noted, the story was first published in Playboy. Perhaps that says it all.
steveh
November 11th, 2009
6:42 pm
There is no way that story is appropriate reading for a high school class. I’m not a prude. I think parents need to be willing to engage their kids in some pretty frank discussions about sexuality. But I do not think that is the responsibility of the school system (particulary in a Literature class!!). The teacher should be suspended for his actions. However, I also believe he should be entitled to a second chance. The article indicates he is a young teacher. Perhaps he erred in judgment and has learned from his mistake.
Wreck
November 11th, 2009
6:43 pm
I am 30 and not religious. Save that stuff for college. No way no how appropriate in high school.
KJ
November 11th, 2009
6:49 pm
“I’ve never heard of … [Chuck Palahniuk].”
Wow. Journalistic standards at the AJC continue to test a new bottom.
Rob
November 11th, 2009
6:51 pm
After reading the quote I feel this does NOT belong in any school in any form.
This seemed more pornographic than actual english lit.
Poker Face
November 11th, 2009
6:53 pm
So what did the homework look like?
Slappy
November 11th, 2009
7:03 pm
Is that a carrot in your bum or are you just happy to see me?
Time for that reall change
November 11th, 2009
7:04 pm
This does not deserve a response and if thats where my tax money is going then I dont want any part of it. This is perverted and every God fearing person in this country knows it. Im insulted to even think of what these kids are being subject to in these government schools. Thats why my kids attended private schools. They are actually educated.
April
November 11th, 2009
7:17 pm
If you go to the first link Theresa posted and then click on the title of the story in the body of the article, you can read the story. The quote posted is TAME compared to the other scenes. I skimmed a little and quickly realized that this was not something I wanted to read. Commenters to the original post related how disturbed they were when they had read the story in college or later. The maturity level of the student must be considered, and it is not up to the teacher to educate students about some things. The English teacher’s job is to teach grammar, writing, elements of great literature, and expose students to a wide variety of appropriate works. If you create a love of literature and learning in a student, he will explore other writings and find things that appeal to him.
And as an aside, I do not think that reading trash and smut is better than reading nothing at all.