Does spanking create dumber, more aggressive kids?

A new study from the Center for Child and Family Policy at Duke University found that children who are spanked as 1-year-olds are more likely to behave aggressively and did worse on cognitive tests as toddlers than children who were not spanked.

HealthDay News reports:

” ‘Age 1 is a key time for establishing the quality of the parenting and the relationship between parent and the child,’ said study author Lisa J. Berlin, a research scientist at the Center for Child and Family Policy at Duke University. ‘Spanking at age 1 reflects a negative dynamic, and increases children’s aggression at age 2.’ “

The study, which is published in the September/October issue of “Child Development” examined data on 2,500 white, Mexican American and black children from low-income families. The data included parents’ reports about their children’s behavior, their use of spanking, as well as home visits by trained observers to document parent-child interactions at ages 1, 2 and 3.

“About one-third of mothers of 1-year-olds reported they or someone in their household had spanked their child in the last week, while about half of the mothers of 2- and 3-year-olds reported that their child had been spanked.”

“The average number of spankings for 1-year-olds was 2.6 per week, while the average for 2-year-olds was nearly three.”

“The study found that children who were spanked at age 1 had more aggressive behaviors at age 2 and performed worse on measures of thinking abilities at age 3.”

“Being spanked at age 2, however, did not predict more aggressive behaviors at age 3, possibly because the spanking had begun at age 1 and by age 2 the kids were already more aggressive, Berlin said.”

Apparently just scolding your kids doesn’t increase their risk of bad behavior, as long as the mother is generally attentive and supportive.

In a related story ABC News examined how being raised by abusive parents affects your parenting. According to ABC News, studies show that one in three people who were abused as children will grow up to become an abuser.

“For more than a month last year, ABC News followed three parents in Florida who are trying to overcome those odds. Cameras rolled as the parents struggled to deal with their kids monster tantrums and meltdowns that could test anyone’s patience. The families volunteered for a mentoring program for at-risk parents called Parent Aide, run by the Toledo, Ohio-based National Exchange Club Foundation.”

PrimeTime on ABC showed the footage last night of how the families were handling their children’s discipline and how they could do a better job. The online story also reviews what the parents were doing wrong and how else they could have handled the situations.

In another related story on ABC News, a doctor offered 10 TIPS TO DEAL WITH DEFIANT CHILDREN, and I found them very interesting. Obviously they don’t want you spanking a child or even using time-outs repeatedly. The big thing this doctor recommends is just recognizing good behavior from your kids and constantly pointing it out.

Dr. Alan Kazdin of Yale University Parenting Center and Child Conduct Clinic, says in the ABC News story:

“Positive attention to good behavior can be a smile, a touch or praise — or all three — but do it right away and be specific about what it was the child did right every time. ‘Great job taking your dishes to the sink!’ works better than ‘Great job!’

I’m actually going to try his tips and email them to Michael. I like the idea of telling them frequently when they are good (I do it now but probably not enough!).

What do you think of each of these stories?

Do you buy that spanking at 1 or under will increase the child’s chances of behaving badly and doing poorly on cognitive tests? Did you notice how often these little 1-year-olds were getting spanked?

Do you spank? How young did you start spanking? How often do you spank?

Do you believe that abused children are more likely to abuse?

What did you think of the coping tips offered in the second story, as well as the 10 tips offered by the Yale professor?

202 comments Add your comment

HB

September 17th, 2009
12:21 am

I’m not surprised that the study showed one-year-olds who are spanked are more likely to become aggressive. I’ve worked with families in different areas of the country, and the ones that used spanking as their primary means of discipline were the ones whose kids were the worst behaved overall and the most aggressive. I did not see much difference in behavior overall of kids who were not spanked at all (usually northern families) compared with those who were spanked rarely (southern). In those rarely spanking families, the parents didn’t spank at all under age 2, and when they did start only spanked when children did something potentially dangerous or had a rare, really bad day and were clearly warned after a few incidents punished by other means that the next one would bring a spanking (last resort).

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
12:22 am

I wish I could see the study in more depth. I wonder if the data is skewed if they only looked at low income families/children. That in and of itself could be a factor in low test scores. Why didn’t the researchers look at middle or upper class?

For some reason, I have this mental image of what I think the typical mother in the study looks/acts like.

We rarely spank in our house. But on occasion, we feel that it is necessary. We did some swats on behinds when the children were toddlers and it seemed to work nicely. (actually, the 3yo still gets them every now and then.) Once again, it is not often. BTW, my 12 yo is in the gifted program and scores VERY well on all of her standardized tests. The 3yo seems to be pretty bright and observant. His preschool teachers tell me that he appears to be very bright as well. Do I think that the spanking has harmed my children? Of course not.

I would also be interested to know/see how hard the typical parent in the study spanked. I would think that could be a factor in the results. There is a difference in spanking and abusing. You CAN spank without abusing a child.

Cephus

September 17th, 2009
12:26 am

I could not imagime spanking a one year old baby. A two year old can at least understand that there are negative consequences to misbehavior. The results of this study make sense to me

Shannon, M.Div.

September 17th, 2009
12:31 am

There is no reason or excuse to hit a child, *ever*. It has no good consequences. It is morally wrong. It teaches children that might makes right. It teaches them that violence is an appropriate way to deal with unwanted behavior in others. What it doesn’t teach them is that they are loved and valued. What it doesn’t do is teach them why their behavior is wrong.

There is never a reason to lay a violent hand on a child, in anger or not, with the intention to cause pain.

Never, never, never.

Never.

motherjanegoose

September 17th, 2009
2:23 am

I do not believe in spanking small children as the primary course of action. I am not sure that I ever spanked our children when they were one….a pop on the hand with a firm NO….maybe.

It takes more time to come up with a solution that corrects wrong behavior and for both parties ( parent and child) to understand the how and why. Sometimes , you CANNOT reason wiht a 2 year old. Kind of like sitting down with your dog and trying to explain why it was a bad idea that he/she just ate an entire pkg. of Oreos at one time as they were left out on the counter and the dog pulled them down to enjoy. Two year olds are not usually old enough to comprehend logic, other mtheods need to be used and not just resorting to spanking.

Having had hours of Psychology classes ( that most parents and especially my own never attended) I understand that there are ways to redirect behavior and also offer an alternate punishment,

My parents were spankers. I remember having marks on my legs and buttocks many times. Ditto for my husband. Many adults are familiar with whippings.

I have spanked my kids ( on occasion) and am not at all opposed to it. As parents, some children’s behaviors need a quick resolve. Especially if there is danger involved. I was always careful not to spank out of anger. When you are actually a parent yourself, you know that there are times you will lose it with children. This is not the time to spank .

IMHO if more children were disciplined ( I did not say spanked) today, we would not have the problems we have. The pendulum seems to have swung in the other direction and parents are afraid of their kids or do not know what to do with them.

While my own kids have a lapse of judgment moment, they often tell me that when their friends come up with crazy ideas they say ” I cannot do that…my parents will kill me..” Not really but they know what we expect of them. You do have to start when they are little but spanking a one year old may not be the best course of action.

@ Shannon, respectfully if you have a Masters of Divinity ( am I correct) , how do you handle the Bible Verse about Spare the Rod Spoil the child…just curious.

motherjanegoose

September 17th, 2009
2:28 am

OOOPS I am not usually up at this time and sorry for the typos…back to bed for me!

When I say most parents, regarding the Psychology classes, I mean in the entire U.S. and across all cultural, social and economic norms.

notgonnagiveone

September 17th, 2009
6:16 am

Love how you slyly worked into your piece that story about abused children. Sneaky little way to show a ‘related story’ and therefore relate those who ABUSE their children to those who SPANK them. I guess we see your opinion…care to take a guess at my opinion on your tactics?

catlady

September 17th, 2009
7:04 am

I have to LOL at the idea that this study shows a link, and folks impute causation. That spanking CAUSES dumber, more aggressive kids. Could it be that kids who are dumb get spanked more because they fail to heed their parents’ warnings/body language signals? Could it be that kids who are aggressive get in trouble more and thus are spanked more? Geeze.

You would also find that lower class parents spank more. Does that mean that spanking your child makes you poor? C’mon.

Could there be causation? Sure, but this study will not parse it out. You have to have controls and statistical methods far greater than these.

On spanking: my children were spanked when they needed it: when they defied what they had been told to do, or standards that had been clearly set. I would guess less than a half dozen times for the oldest, a very compliant child, less than 10 for the son, and about a half dozen for the youngest daughter.

I was NEVER spanked on my bottom as a child, but got my hands spanked once for throwing red clay mud on my mother;s clean white sheets.

catlady

September 17th, 2009
7:17 am

As a teacher, I can tell you few children are getting spanked. Too much effort, I guess. Parents just ignore bad behavior and the child escalates it. An occasional spanking when a child defies the parents’ authority is a spanking well used, IMHO. Or you get what we have now: kids who have no respect for any authority at all. These are the disgruntled, job to job workers of a decade from now.

The devil is in the details. What is a spanking? Hitting the kid with a brush or a stick?

M. Div, I am reminded that God smote the Israelites for their lack of obedience to him repeatedly in the Bible. Are we not to be wise fathers to our children?

first time poster

September 17th, 2009
7:32 am

“M. Div, I am reminded that God smote the Israelites for their lack of obedience to him repeatedly in the Bible. Are we not to be wise fathers to our children?”

You’re kidding right? Sorry, but justifying doing harm to anyone based on a book is just illogical.

KidsRpeople2

September 17th, 2009
7:44 am

The TRUTH is that school children are treated differently in our great nation based on where they live. A middle school student in Texas DIED by having his chest crushed when his teacher sat on him to restrain him, a Texas high school student suffered deep bruising and welts to his lower back, buttocks and back of his legs when he received 21 “licks” with a wooden canoe paddle, which broke during the beating and had to be taped to continue the beating, a 9-year-old Georgia 3rd grader suffered deep bruising injuries when he was PADDLED WITH A WOODEN PADDLE 3 TIMES IN ONE DAY and a Publicly Funded Charter School in Memphis, Tennessee physically punishes middle/high school boys and GIRLS weekly during a ceremony called “Chapel” by hitting them with wooden paddles and/or whipping their hands with leather straps IN FRONT OF ALL THE OTHER STUDENTS AS A DETERRENT to publicly induce shame, humiliation and fear! The school employees in the above actions have LEGAL IMMUNITY and are STILL paid by our tax-dollars to be ENTRUSTED with the care and education of our children! Arkansas is one of the states where Physical Punishment of Children in schools is legal and practiced.

“Children are the most vulnerable members of our society. Adults have constitutional and legal protection from physical violence. Why are children still waiting?”

Physical punishment of schoolchildren is NOT education’s “Best Practice” if it is ILLEGAL in 30 states. U.S. Congress is currently holding hearings on Abusive and DEADLY practices in SCHOOLS and MUST ABOLISH Physical/Corporal Punishment Nationwide of ALL Children in ALL Schools, The Cost is $0. Doesn’t it just make sense for all of us to keep our hands off of other people’s children?

Pushing for anything less than an outright ban on all forms of classroom abuse reveals a gap in the administration’s professed commitment to making schools better, safer, and stronger.

motherjanegoose

September 17th, 2009
8:00 am

@ Kidsrpeople2…Am I the only one who thought we were talking about OUR OWN CHILDREN?

I taught for years and NEVER punished a child with any type of physical force. I would never dream of it. How many ONE year olds are actually in school….daycare maybe and those folks would lose their license in a minute! I guess there might be some children using in home day care that could be punished physically.

I am not getting how your post relates to the topic, as I thought the word parent was mentioned frequently in the report above. Perhaps you wanted to extend the topic?

Again, I love catlady’s insights and did get a chuckle out of :
“Could it be that kids who are dumb get spanked more because they fail to heed their parents’ warnings/body language signals? Could it be that kids who are aggressive get in trouble more and thus are spanked more? Geeze.”

catlady

September 17th, 2009
8:03 am

First time: depends on what you mean by “harm.” If you mean teaching the child to do as they are told to avoid getting run over, for example, I would think that “harm” would be not enforcing your teaching, rather than a spanking for pulling away and heading for the street.

Many folks think that “book”, the Bible, provides information on how to live. Obviously, not you, but perhaps the M.Div does accept that.

Kidspeople2: the subject is parental spanking. Stay on track and focus!

By the way, if you follow the line of thinking this “research” promotes, you believe that serving coffee on an airline flight causes turbulance!

first time poster

September 17th, 2009
8:13 am

By “harm” I mean hitting them. I managed to teach my child to not run into the road, or touch a hot stove without hitting her.

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
8:27 am

This is just one study of a long list of studies that definitely repudiates spanking. To the other nurse and mom- in my child development classes – there was not one mention that spanking was a helpful or useful tool in child rearing. I was brought up with it and decided NOT to use spanking whatsoever. And that is really because I believe that I wouldn’t be able to use enough self control. In other words, just because my parents did it to me, was not an excuse for me to use it on my kids. I think a lot of parents just spank because it is easy and short lived – ‘or so they think’, but don’t think of the long term consequences. The worse a child becomes, and the louder and harder you yell and spank…all you do is desensitize the kid and it becomes less and less effective. If you were raised with abuse, you are more likely to become an abuser. If you were raised with spanking, you will more likely become a spanker. The science and stats prove this.
Personally I think spanking – of any kind – is poor parenting plain and simple. BTW to the other posters – it is true that corporal punishment does go on in schools. That fact is sad and disgusts me personally. I think it’s strange that any parent in Georgia would allow someone else to paddle their child. Personally I believe it needs to be outlawed ASAP. The other study that was recently published called, Impairing Education, particularly spotlights Georgia. If the lawmakers don’t wake up on this, children will continue to get injured — and yes, they do get injured according to Impairing Education and student achievement is lower as well. I believe it is a serious problem.

workingmom

September 17th, 2009
8:35 am

We have never felt the need to spank our children. While I am not necessarily against the idea of spanking in certain situations, I do believe if spanking is a regular form of punishment (i.e. you are using it at least weekly) then it is not really working, is it? I was spanked as a child, but probably can count on my fingers the total times I was spanked in my childhood. The threat always seem to work well for me. I have a friend who seems to regularly spank her children for misbehaving. In that case, the child knows there is a spanking coming for misbehavior and does it anyway…you need to find a different motivator. In that case, all you are doing is teaching your child to hit IMHO.

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
8:35 am

catlady – I must ask – you state you are an educator, Did you take child development class? It seems the reason you spank is not based on logic, but only out of habit. Because you were hit, you use it to hit your kids. Why would anyone in education even think that spanking is a reasonable form of child rearing really concerns me. I don’t care if you say you don’t punish your students with corporal punishment. The mere fact that you spank your own kids concerns people like me who have raised their kids without any sort of hitting. Spanking is hitting, let’s not just dress up the word. I really don’t get educators who are college educated, surely have taken child development classes, and still do this. And then you wonder why parents sometimes don’t trust educators?? I think this is why. It troubles me that any educator says they hit their own kids…who’s to say you won’t lose control and hit someone else’s kid?

HB

September 17th, 2009
8:42 am

“Spare the rod, spoil the child…”

I know no one who takes this literally, whether they feel spanking is ok or not. A rod?! That sounds like caning! It also sounds like the Bible says not to use the rod sparingly. So if you’re not going to stick to the literal meaning, I don’t see where a metaphorical rod of timeout, grounding, etc, is any less valid of an interpretation than the rod being a rare, open-handed slap on the butt.

Becky

September 17th, 2009
8:51 am

Doesn’t a lot of this depend on the child’s situation?

Andrea

September 17th, 2009
9:16 am

Forgive my brutal candor but HECK NO – spanking does not create a dumber child. I have never heard of such foolishness! I have to agree with one of the other posters, the child was already dumb or probably, hard-headed.

(Aging myself here) I did get whippings as a child. In hindsight, I can say the very thought of getting a whipping would scare the crap out of me. As a parent, I do believe that there are circumstances where an old fashioned whipping is necessary.

I do agree that abusers begat abusers. But, IMHO, those who equate discipline with abuse are just not being honest. Sure there are some parents that abuse their kids, but not all parents do that. Most do not. I think you are doing your child a far greater injustice by giving them the false hopes of thinking that people in the real world aren’t going to give them real consequences for their actions. I am so tired of parents that allow their kids to co-parent with them. That is absurd. Children are not miniature adults.

I have spanked my kids. I have given them the “hand pop” where I give them a pop on the hand. If I do spank their bottom, it is only with my hand. It is always done rarely and they would have gone through levels of punishment before it gets to that final consequence.

I do like the alternative punishments also and do use them regularly.

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

September 17th, 2009
9:17 am

I think you guys are reading too much into my grouping of stories — I say related because they are about discipline — and give alternatives to spanking in general.

Becky (original)

September 17th, 2009
9:23 am

OK, guess there is another Becky on here, so I may have to change my blog name..

No, I don’t think a child should be spanked..They can learn without being hit on..As others said though, a swat on the back side or hand is (usually) enough..No child under at the age of one should ever be spanked..

Do I think that spankings casue dumber, more aggressive kids? No..I know kids that were never spanked as children that are aggressive.. I think it just depends..

Stan

September 17th, 2009
9:26 am

catlady,
I said exactly what I was thinking, only you said it MUCH better than I could have. Awesome posts!

JJ

September 17th, 2009
9:32 am

I was spanked, my brother was spanked, and my child was spanked. No violence in our family, nor are we poor or stupid……

I do NOT believe spanking = child abuse. To me, that is absurd. If a child is acting out, sometimes a good swick smack on the butt will get their attention.

Now what I think is worse, is the parent who cannot say NO to their child, and just lets them do whatever. I have numerous friends whose children rule the household, as young as 5……it just drives me crazy……

My ex sister in law, is on the verge of bankruptcy because she can’t say no to her kids. She will buy them anything and everything they ask for. NEVER has she once told them no.

Dr. Horrible

September 17th, 2009
9:39 am

What spanking teaches a child, if done correctly, is that the consequences of their actions become more severe the longer they persist. This is how REAL life works.

Dr. Horrible

September 17th, 2009
9:43 am

This is an addendum to my comment I made at 9:39 am.

And by “actions” I mean those actvities that negatively effect themselves or those around them.

Michael

September 17th, 2009
9:43 am

Man oh man this study is so wrong, I truly believe that there is a difference between spanking and abuse,My kids are spanked only as a LAST resort, and they are all top honor students, my kids started learning and reading by the ages of 3-4 and were always bright, my 9 year old is in highschool math and reading, and my 5 year old is starting Kindergarden and reads 3rd grade books.So I would say this study is very opinion related.
I have seen in my life the people that are agenst spanking are people that can’t or don’t have kids. Hum.. I have an issue with people that don’t have kids but yet they are all about telling people how to raise them. I have the privlage of living next to a few police officers and let me let you they see it all, they tell me all the time if more people would step up and punish there kids with a swat or two every now and again when they do something bad then these kids would understand that something negitive happens with you don’t follow the rules, they tell me about how half of the kids they know by first name out on the street are the “none spanked” kids that have no respect for anything adn have rep sheets a mile long. Plus in the real world is it all about positive behavior when you do something wrong….I think not. when you screw up at work what happens….no raise, or fired. you break the law…you go to jail… all negitive actions…..Dauh!!! Kids have to be taught that if you do something bad a negitive action will follow, this teaches REAL world!!!!!WAKE UP PEOPLE.

motherjanegoose

September 17th, 2009
9:44 am

@ JJ and do you ever wish some of those kids whose parents are letting them rule the roost while they are ruining your dinner at a restaurant at 8:30 p.m. would be taken out for a quick pop…I do.

Perhaps the parents who use spanking sparingly, as I did ( and you too), have children who can read the signs that their parents are not happy with them and if they do not quickly turn their behavior around, they are heading for something (neither the parent nor) the child wants.

I am all about positive reinforcement but as adults, we are punished if we do not follow the rules:

YOUR CLOCK IN TIME IS 9:00 A.M. FOR WORK….who gets a bonus ( positive reinforcement) if you show up at 8:55 ready to clock in….who gets docked for pay or fired if you stroll in every day at 9:30?

YOUR TAXES ARE DUE APRIL 15….who gets 10% off of their taxes if they file early or a penalty
( punishment) if they file late.

YOUR CAR PAYMENT IS DUE ON THE FIRST OF THE MONTH …DO THEY LET YOU PAY LESS IF YOU PAY A WEEK IN ADVANCE OR DO YOU GET PUNISHED WITH A LATE FEE IF YOU PAY LATE?

I am not talking about saving interest money by paying loans off early…I am talking about month to month.

I’m just saying….the world is full of adult punishments and kids need to learn this early….some parents do not see it.

JJ

September 17th, 2009
9:51 am

MJG I don’t go out to restaurants very often, and when I do, I very rarely see children acting out that need to be removed from the establishment.

Now I was at Publix the other day, and there were two kids just screaming with excitement. They were starting to get on my nerves, as I heard them throughout the store, and I was there at least 30 minutes. The mom was oblivious to their screams. They weren’t crying, just very excited. But you could hear them everywhere in that store…..not once did Momma say, please be quiet….she must be one of those who allows the kids to do whatever they want. And they were younger kids too, about 4 and 5…….very cute, but very annoying.

I love kids, and love being around them, but I couldn’t get out of that store fast enough…….

motherjanegoose

September 17th, 2009
9:53 am

haha..@ Michael….maybe we should take a survey of PARENTS OF CHILDREN RIGHT NOW on this blog who did ( at some point) spank their child….not abusively and whose children are now admired by their peers, good students and that adults tell you what wonderful children you have. That would be my children ( although they do make mistakes). Who else wants to weigh in.?

@ Michael again:
“Hum.. I have an issue with people that don’t have kids but yet they are all about telling people how to raise them.” Me too and when I mention it to the folks I work with that those who have never been parents but like to tell the rest of us what we need to know…they all laugh and roll their eyes.
Not much I can do about it. Kind of like my Pediatrician telling me I needed to continue to breastfeed when my son was using me as a teething ring and I wanted to stop at 10 months…he was a DOCTOR but he was a MAN!

Yesterday, I did not chime in with advice about being a STEP PARENT as I have never been one.
I personally take advise more seriously if the bearer has actual experience in the area. May be it is just me~

Becky (the second one)

September 17th, 2009
10:00 am

Don’t worry, I will leave.

motherjanegoose

September 17th, 2009
10:16 am

oops…sory for my typos, I am doing 4 things at once and getting ready to go visit with children. Have fun and I can’t wait to see what comes up later.

@ Becky ( the second one) there are many posters on here who have been posting for quite some time….original Becky. New posters are always welcome but some new poster’s name’s can often be the same name as another poster and this is confusing. Please stay but if you keep the Becky ( the second one) we will know who you are. I have clients with the same first name and when they call and say, “This is Lisa…”, I need to know Lisa who and where. Please do not get your feelings hurt over it. I always enjoy reading new ideas from new people.

We had another Becky a while back and it was a bit confusing….

teeincsg

September 17th, 2009
10:21 am

I spank when necessary, but it’s not often. Like most posters said, usually as the last resort or when I’ve told them to not touch or do something because it could endanger them.

I was spanked as a kid (not often, I was a good kid ;) ). I don’t think I’ve become aggressive and certainly not dumb and I was from a low income family!
I think I’m a productive citizen of the world with a Masters degree, working hard to take care of my family and ground them with morals — an the occasional swat on the behind.

@ JJ — I thought you were talking about my kids for a moment LOL. But I would have said something to them and probably took them to the “woodshed”, so I realized it wasn’t me LOL

@ Michael — that’s great that your 5 year old is reading on an advanced level! I was an early reader too. My 3 and 5 year old love books and I hope they keep that going.

HB

September 17th, 2009
10:21 am

“I wonder if the data is skewed if they only looked at low income families/children. That in and of itself could be a factor in low test scores. Why didn’t the researchers look at middle or upper class?”

Nurse&mother, actually, this would make the study less skewed because they are looking at children of similar economic backgrounds who were spanked at age 1 vs those who were not — low income kids spanked as babies did worse than low-income kids that weren’t. If you compared, for example, low-income and middle-income children and found those spanked had lower test scores and worse behavior, you may also find that the 1-y-o spanked kids were dispropotionately lower income, so the income could be a bigger influence in that group than the spanking. Does that make sense?

It’s also interesting that the third of parents who spank 1-year-olds at all in the study do it often (2.6x per week on average). Not really surprising, though, since I would think parents who feel spanking should be used only as a last resort most likely are not spanking 1-year-olds who can’t really understand warnings and threats of greater punishment.

Dr. Horrible

September 17th, 2009
10:22 am

My parents would tell me to stop doing something, then if I kept doing it they would threaten to spank me, if I kept persisting, they would actually spank me, and if it was a SERIOUS issue, or if I flat out refused to stop even after being spanked, then a belt to the @ss was in order. Believe me, with that stepped approach I learned REAL quick. Often my mom would simply threaten with the belt after asking me to stop and that was enough to get me to stop. As I recall my mother brought out the belt maybe twice in my entire life….but the fear of it kept me in line.

I use this same approach with my kids and it works and I have also incorporated a form of “time out” as a step in the discipline process. I’ve not had to use a belt with my kids and I hope that I will never have to but if I must, then I will.

Again, spanking, if done CORRECTLY, can be as effective as any other form of discipline, but like everything else, I’m sure it varies from kid to kid as to what works.

Becky (the second one)

September 17th, 2009
10:22 am

Thanks MJG. My feelings are not hurt, I will just post under another id.

teeincsg

September 17th, 2009
10:28 am

Dr. Horrible, that’s what I do to mine: warn, threaten (LOL), then proceed with action.
I humor myself as well by letting them see me put the belt in my purse when we go out.
Do I use it? no. I usually surprise myself when go in my purse to get money or something out and see it LOL.
My 5 year old daughter reminds me that I can get the belt if her 3 year old brother is not listening to me when I tell him to do something.
Hmmmm… who’s the parent here? LOL

YUKI

September 17th, 2009
10:36 am

I have a 1 1/2 year old son and I do not spank him at this time. There is a huge difference between spanking and abuse. When I was growing up, I always had the threat of a “whipping” if I misbehaved and although I think my father only actually resorted to that once (and very mild I might add), the fear of it kept me in line. I’m not poor, aggressive or dumb. This is the problem with kids today, their actions have no consequences and they know it. Why not misbehave, nothing is going to happen??? I see nothing wrong with a small swat on the hand or backside. I obviously am not meaning to beat your kid until he has bruises, but people who are like “NO HITTING EVER” need to get off of their high horse and realize it’s not “abuse” if you use it as a form of mild discipline and a last resort. It’s ridiculous how “politically correct” everyone tries to be. Just take care of your own kids and teach them right from wrong and you won’t have to worry about someone else having to beat them at school!

Becky (original)

September 17th, 2009
10:37 am

Becky(second one)..I wasn’t trying to run you off..It’s just confusing when there are 2 Becky’s..So if there isn’t another name that you might want to use, I’ll be happy to use soemthing different..As MJG said, we welcome any and all and would love to have you stay and be a part of our family.

Thanks MJG..

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
10:45 am

Why do people who spank discredit valid studies? And why do you not take it to heart and at least try some of the techniques offered? Did anyone watch the primetime show last night? Would any spanker on this blogpage be willing to be filmed as they hit their child? It really looks like abuse when it is on film, I don’t care how one can just brush it off.

Dr. Horrible

September 17th, 2009
10:52 am

@Retired nurse/mom

I think most of those of us here that say they spank do so as a last resort only. If I were to be filmed spanking my child the film had better also include the numerous times I had tried to discipline my kid without spanking them first. Then the audience would be more inclined to understand the situation.

Becky (Prime)

September 17th, 2009
11:01 am

I’ve gone crosseyed.

KidsRpeople2

September 17th, 2009
11:09 am

Regarding Physical/Corporal Punishment in SCHOOLS, I am the parent of 3 children attending schools in an UNRESPONSIVE Paddling School District where TEACHERS keep WOODEN PADDLES in desk drawers to show to middle school students and threaten them with physical punishment, which is administered in hallways, just outside class, then the battered child immediately faces classmates when they return to their seat, for stuff like not turning in homework, all WITHOUT PARENTAL CONSENT OR NOTIFICATION! We DO NOT HIT OUR CHILDREN and are strongly OPPOSED TO THEIR LEARNING ENVIRONMENT INCLUDING THIS VIOLENCE, LAZINESS AND STUPIDITY! We took the matter up with our local school board elected members in April 2008 during “National Child Abuse Prevention and Awareness Month” and to date 9/09, have received no response, no letter, no phone call, they have ignored us! We also took the matter up with the State of Tennessee Department of Education and the Governor’s Office and the U.S. Department of Education Office of Civil Rights and everyone says it is a “local issue”. Thank goodness local communities do not have authority to legalize and practice slavery! School employees are prohibited by LAW from hitting children with wooden paddles or any other physical punishment in 30 states, why are children in the other 20 states treated differently? Also, when the President addressed the nation’s school children recently, our County schools IGNORED THE ENTIRE ISSUE, no notes home, no discussion with the children or parents, they DECIDED FOR PARENTS that they would not participate. There was not even any mention of the President’s address to the school children in our local paper that comes out once weekly! Meanwhile, the recent shocking headlines listed in my earlier post are verifiable by doing an internet search, CHILDREN ARE BEING HARMED PHYSICALLY, PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND EMOTIONALLY IN OUR TAX-PAYER FUNDED SCHOOLS! The COST TO PROHIBIT PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT OF CHILDREN IN AMERICA’S SCHOOLS IS $0.

Dr. Horrible

September 17th, 2009
11:16 am

@KidsRpeople2

Seriously, if I were you…I would either move out of that school system or find an alternative school for my children to attend. It sounds like that school system has way too much power and is corrupted by the power it wields. Good luck to you.

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
11:24 am

@ Doc Horrible — The videos from last nights primetime show depicted exactly that, parents who could not control their kids who resorted to physical means. They were the adults that still appeared to be out of control when they resorted to physical punishment. You can excuse it all you want. Why not break the spanking habit, because that’s all it is. It is done I believe only because people were spanked as children and it is what they know. Once you implement other means, and stop with the ‘last resort’ mantra, you’ll likely have better adjusted children. Further, I doubt the spankers can cite one study that says it’s effective.. I will put you up to the task. Locate one study that says spanking is a good thing.
Spanking is hitting. Period. Let’s not dress it up as an innocuous word. Hitting a child is wrong. You can’t hit your dog in this country. You can’t hit your neighbor, You can’t hit your spouse but the pervasive attitude is that you can still hit your kid. SAD

Dr. Horrible

September 17th, 2009
11:38 am

@Retired nurse/mom

Your reasoning is why we have to deal with the “ME” generation of kids. Thanks for being part of the problem.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
11:41 am

Michael…just a suggestion that maybe you should have your genius children spell check your blogs before you submit them…I’m sure they could enlighten you that “negitive” is actually spelled “negative”, “privlage” is spelled “privilege”, and “agenst” is spelled “against”.

You wrote “I have seen in my life the people that are agenst spanking are people that can’t or don’t have kids” Well, just to set the record straight, I have a child and I’ve never spanked him and he’s doing just fine. I don’t disagree with you that spanking can be useful in the right circumstances, but if you and your cop buddies think that spanking is THE BEST AND ONLY way to teach discipline, respect, and consequences for bad behavior, well that’s just as stupid as saying there is NO place for spanking ever.

You also wrote “Hum.. I have an issue with people that don’t have kids but yet they are all about telling people how to raise them”…well most of us (and I would think you would be included in this group) have an issue with someone who DOES have kids telling us how to raise ours just because they have had success with theirs.

Dr. Horrible

September 17th, 2009
11:46 am

Allow me to elaborate on my 11:38 am comment.

The “ME” generation of kids has come about because they have been brought up with the thought that they are entitled to be rewarded for doing something…..this leads to the “what’s in it for me” approach.

And now that generation “ME” is starting to join the workforce they are finding out that things simply do not work that way in the real world.

Parents should be more concerned with teaching their kids how the world actually works and less concerned with being the kid’s friend.

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
11:46 am

@Dr. HOrrible. Thank you for indicting my kids before you even know them. My children are no angels but they have never done something that would warrant me or their father hitting them. NOsirree. What works for us is a united front. I am blessed to have a wonderful strong father figure for my children. We lead by example but we are not perfect. It’s parents who use their hands and fists as a means to discipline that raise violent people, that is a pervasive problem in this country.

I see you never did cite one study that say’s it’s beneficial. As I expected.
Please read the Position statement of Prevent Child Abuse America as well as many many advisories put out by Yale, Harvard and others in the medical and child welfare realm.

Did you know Georgia’s children are faring quite badly according to the latest Kids Count Report? There are multiple reasons, but maltreatment of children is a real issue here.

Still waiting on that study…..

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
11:52 am

@MJG….I’m going to have to take issue with your late on car payments, taxes, work metaphors. Let me just ask you this…if the next time you were late on your car payment your banker came to your house, told you to bend over (not in the good way) and smacked your ass as hard as he/she could…then said “THAT was for being late on your car payment”…would you just make sure that you made your car payment on time the next month or would you call the cops?

It seems to me that what you’re implying is that ultimately kids only understand physical punishment. I give kids more credit than that.

Photius

September 17th, 2009
12:16 pm

From what I see of children today out in public, there should be more spankings. I agree with Dr. Horrible and disagree with new age, reinvent the wheel parents.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
12:20 pm

@ Theresa….”I think you guys are reading too much into my grouping of stories — I say related because they are about discipline — and give alternatives to spanking in general.” I have to call you out on that statement.

The only way your second “related story” relates to discipline is that they used the word discipline. This was a piece about how people refrain (or fail to) from abusing kids in the name of discipline. That was as far of a stretch as you could have made and I think you should have seen that. Parents who spank responsibly should be offended by you including that as a “related story”.

JJ

September 17th, 2009
12:23 pm

There is a difference between hitting a child, and disclipining a child, and abusing a child.

Unfortunately there are too many pansy parents out there..I didn’t “hit” my child, but I sure got her attention with a swat on the butt…..or the leg just below the butt……

And as for the school with the paddle and paddling the kids then making them face their peers I’M ALL FOR THAT!! Public humiliation works wonders……..especially for the Middle School kids.

Photius

September 17th, 2009
12:28 pm

JJ – yes, flog them in school. No problem with it. It worked when we grew up but geeee, all this feel good pansy mommy/daddy crap today just ain’t cutting the mustard as is evident by the generation they have raised. Paddle them in school!

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
12:38 pm

hey JJ…let’s, for the sake of argument, make anassumption that you met a kid who was really well adjusted, respectful, and well behaved who happened to have parents opposed to spanking. Would those parents still be considered “pansies” to you?

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
12:47 pm

@ doc Horrible, and do not ASSume that us non-spankers are not disciplining our children. I have children and believe me they are disciplined — without hitting them, imagine that!

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
12:49 pm

Discipline means to TEACH.

I am really shocked that there are actual educators on this blog page that ASSume, even with all the best practices data out there that says spanking is detrimental, they still assume that this is a good method to raise children

AMAZING

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
12:49 pm

The only difference is semantics JJ.. Hitting is hitting is hitting. Period

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
12:54 pm

It would stand to reason that if you hit a kid – and I mean spank, pop, slap and use this even as a last resort – that the child cannot internalize the reason why his behavior is instigating this behavior from the adult. The child therefore cannot self-correct or self-internalize. I believe the child’s inate ability to understand critical thinking about social mores are ruined when they are spanked. It teaches them that hitting is used by the adult in the family to solve a problem. Same goes if a child is brought up in an environment of domestic abuse and witnesses this. He sees the adults solving the problem with hitting, which in turn, leads him to make him more likely to hit when he/she becomes an adult. It’s logic people, not rocket science.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
12:56 pm

@MJG and JJ…..so here’s a question…if corporal punishment is such a panacea for habitual rule breakers…why should we ever stop? Why is it good for a kid, but not an adult? Of course, pain is an essential element to corporal punishment, so we would have to adjust the pain accordingly as we grow up and our tolerance to pain becomes greater. So given that, why shouldn’t we, as parents who administer corporate punishment as a tool to correct behavior, be willing to subject ourselves to that same form of punishment. Too many points on your driver’s license, maybe the judge should sentence us to some painful, yet safely and professionally administered electric shocks? I understand GA is undergoing a big drought…so for those people who habitually water their lawns in defiance of the restrictions…maybe a good waterboarding is called for (very scary, but really not very dangerous). And in the spirit of JJ’s thoughts, we could do this in the very lawn the offense occurred while requiring all the neighbors to look on, because, after all “Public humiliation works wonders”.

All I’m really getting at here is that there seems to be some thoughts being voiced with the bravery of being out of range. If you’re willing to administer corporal punishment, isn’t it a little hypocritical to not be willing to subject yourself to it?

lakerat

September 17th, 2009
12:58 pm

As many of the regulars know MJG and I disagree on many points – but I am squarely in her corner on this issue (did I really just type that?) -

And, jack5656, you should NEVER suggest in ANY analogy that a lady “bend over” – that can be misconstrued in so many different ways, but I digress.

@KidsRpeople2, please tell us to what school system you refer so that we can know if our kids here in GA are subject to that, or if we need to make sure we never move to the area that is the cause of your consternation.

Finally, Theresa did blur the lines somewhat when talking about spanking vs abuse – from reading Retirednurse/mom responses she has really blurred the lines, but that is her perrogative, though not necessarily relevant to the original intent of the blog topic. I do agree with her, however, that abuse is always wrong!

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
1:12 pm

going back to the original article… there are other studies that show that spanking effects cognitive development, which then one could surmise leads to dumber children. To make folks happy, I will start linking ‘em up.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
1:13 pm

@Lakerat….am I the only one whose parents told had them bend over to take their spanking? If YOUR thought was anything other than that…I dare say that says more about what’s going on in your head than mine.

Would it have been better to have the hypothetical banker tell MJG to go “pick her switch”? The point I was making is that humiliation (bend over, pick your switch, have it administered in public), along with pain, is an essential part of the discipline lesson and that I don’t think most are too keen on that for themselves, but it seems to be a fine sentence for a child.

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
1:14 pm

jack – great post

Let’s start here from the University of New Hampshire that has studied this issue extensively:
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP-Empirical.htm

Dr. Horrible

September 17th, 2009
1:15 pm

@Retired nurse/mom

You equate spanking with child abuse and you are wrong. There is a definitive line between the two that your closed mind does not seem to be able to comprehend. Perhaps you were abused as a child?

lakerat

September 17th, 2009
1:16 pm

Retired nurse/mom – If you have nothing constructive to contribute to the conversation then please leave.

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
1:18 pm

@Doc, no apparently, you have your own set of issues that ignores and excuses that hitting or a.k.a. spanking is a bad thing. Were you hit as a child? I can admit I was. It was very very acceptable back then. I also went to a school where they hit the kids. Paddle, pop, whatever you want to call it. It was wrong then, it is wrong now.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
1:18 pm

@ Theresa….regardless of my earlier criticism for your “related topics” link…i really do think this was a worthy and good blog topic! Good job!

Captain Hammer

September 17th, 2009
1:23 pm

No, spanking a child does not make them dumb. If that were true most of us would be retarded.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
1:27 pm

@ CaptainHammer…that was GOLD! That cracked me up, mostly for how true and insightful it was! I got a ton of spankings…I don’t think I’m stupid (although MJG, JJ, and Lakerat may want to debate that!)

Dr. Horrible

September 17th, 2009
1:27 pm

@Captain Hammer

FINALLY…..somebody gets the meaning of my name…awesome.

@Retired nurse/mom: Who among us over the age of 30 wasn’t spanked as a child? To each their own I will do what works for me and mine and you do the same and we’ll just agree to disagree….how’s that?

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
1:28 pm

Enter your comments here

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
1:30 pm

@ Doc horrible – dude, whatever! – I am not telling you what to do whatsoever, but please do read the studies, many of them. They are interesting and informative.

Dr. Horrible

September 17th, 2009
1:34 pm

@Retired nurse/mom

You want to fight over drinks sometime?

Captain Hammer

September 17th, 2009
1:39 pm

LOL….for those that don’t know you should google “Dr. Horrible’s Sing Along Blog”…..43 minutes of sheer entertainment…..and yes it is safe for work….for the most part.

Sug

September 17th, 2009
1:40 pm

I believe in an eye for an eye. I believe in corporal punishment. I believe that each and every one of us should be held accountable for our actions, and quit blaming others, or circumstances for our failures.

I believe that you are responsible for your actions, and that your actions have consequences. If you abuse the water restrictions, then you get your water cut off. Too many DUI’s and you get your license AND car taken away. Can’t get to work, that’s your problem, and you should have thought about that when you were drinking and decided to get in your car and drive, potentially harming others, or yourself.

I believe If you kill someone, you should be killed too. I believe if someone murders another, and is found guilty, that person should be taken out back and shot, right there and then. No more appeals, nothing, they just take you out back and shot you. Done.

Then my tax dollars aren’t paying for some loser to stay on death row and appeal his case 30+ years.

I also believe if we implemented that, crime would go down considerably.

I think all people who are here illegally should be rounded up and sent back to where they came from. If you want to be here, do it legally. I have no problem with anyone wanted to better themselves, but do it the correct way, and don’t come here and cry how we don’t speak your language.

And while I’m at it, I also believe that after the age of 65, you shouldn’t pay taxes. All the money you saved while working should be yours, and yours alone. The government taxed you while you were working.

BB

September 17th, 2009
1:53 pm

I have never been a biological mother but I did raise a nephew for a few years. The first (and only) time I spanked him he told me to “go ahead and hit me again”. I never spanked again. He did spend some time sitting on the end of his bed.

Kathy

September 17th, 2009
1:55 pm

aha, Let’s see..
Georgia schools spank,
we have an overwhelming prison population, drop out rates are high, and we are ranked….47 in SAT standings….

Hunter of MILF

September 17th, 2009
1:56 pm

Any Cougars here?

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
2:16 pm

BB – I see you noted that usual defiance kids can have when faced with a spank. Believe me I too was a defiant one, and it never worked on me either.

motherjanegoose

September 17th, 2009
2:17 pm

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
2:22 pm

Ok, I haven’t read through all the posts yet, but so far I agree with Catlady (as usual).

JJ

September 17th, 2009
2:22 pm

Georgia schools spank? When did that start?

lakerat

September 17th, 2009
2:27 pm

Georgia schools spanked me once…it hurt.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
2:28 pm

@BB….that’s what I always wondered about when it came to corporal punishment. What is a parent to do when/if their child says “make me” when the parent tells them to come get their punishment? What would I do as a dad if after I spanked my kid for acting up in a restaurant he turned around and gave me a haymaker? Seems to me there are only three choices to make in that circumstance….concede defeat, have an all out brawl with my son to show him my ability to kick his ass is greater than his ability to kick mine (until the day comes that I can’t kick his ass), or figure out some other form of punishment that will control his behavior more than corporal punishment. I’ve decided to go straight to the latter of the three.

S&M Mistress

September 17th, 2009
2:31 pm

And just what is so wrong about getting spanked? HUH?

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
2:33 pm

I would like to add that while none of my child and developement classes condoned physical punishment, I still disagree. As we have all seen over time, many theories/ideas/methods change over time (be it in education, medicine, and societal norms). I would like to point out “today’s” youngest generation. They are so egocentric and think the world revoloves around them. Their parents for the most part have pampered them, withheld ANY punishment, and generally have made them feel like others should be blessed to be in their children’s presence. Yes, I know that is a little extreme, but not necessarily off the mark, IMHO.

While I don’t use physical punishment in the form of spanking often, when used correctly it can be a motivating tool for children.

Do some of you guys seriously try to reason with a 20 month old child? A little pop on the hand works nicely when the child persists with the negative behavior despite the parent telling him/her “no”.

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
2:34 pm

Hey lakerat, I bet you didn’t go it again either. lol

HB

September 17th, 2009
2:37 pm

JJ, not all Georgia schools spank. Georgia law allows individual systems to decide paddling policy. In some systems, it’s used a LOT. I would imagine there are some systems that technically allow it, but haven’t used it for years. That was the case in the small town where I grew up. The school board officially banned corporal punishment last year, but it had not been used at all in 5 or 6 years. The system next door, though, uses it regularly and one of their middle schools was reported as having 569 incidents of corporal punishment in 2007-08.

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
2:44 pm

Retired nurse/mom. I think you would sound more credible if you would compare apples to apples rather than apples to oranges. The rationale with spanking children is for behavior modification not to get even when one is angry. I don’t spank the children out of anger. I spank them to change a negative behavior. THAT is the reason we don’t hit our spouses.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
2:44 pm

@Nurse&mother…clear up a grey area for me…because I may or may not agree with you depending on the answer. When you advocate the pop on the hand…what is the intent? There are some pops that are intended to inflict pain in order to straighten out the child…there are also pops that don’t hurt at all but are very surprising and that shocks the kid into straightening out….some pops are intended to do both. I suppose there could also be pops with other intents…which is yours? In other words what’s the lessen?

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
2:45 pm

of course I meant what’s the “lesson”…my apologies to Michael earlier for being a spelling Nazi.

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
2:46 pm

BB- sounds like your nephew taught YOU a lesson. I bet he calls the shots now.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
2:47 pm

So nurse and mother…If I’m not angry at my spouse but adminster corporate punishment on her to change her behavior, I’m in the clear?

Troll Alert...

September 17th, 2009
2:48 pm

There is a troll posting as lakerat (after the initial post by lakerat at 12:58pm, the other posts by “lakerat” are by the imposter/troll). And, it appears he/she is posting as other bloggers, too!

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
2:49 pm

jeez….extra apologies to Michael for being the spelling hypocrite I am today..self editing would make for “administer” and “corporal” punishment! Humbling to call b*llsh*t on myself!

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
2:50 pm

Jack my intent is to stop the behavior. I start out very light. If that doesn’t work then maybe a little sting (that does NOT make a mark, of course). Usually the shock pop works on the toddlers. Probably not so well on the school age.

I personally believe that it is helpful to incorporate several other methods of discipline like taking away priviledges and time out. I don’t think one method alone is as effective especially when the children get older.

Troll Alert...

September 17th, 2009
2:51 pm

…an imposter is posing as “lakerat” – the original post at 12:58 is by the real lakerat; any post by that moniker after that time – 2 other posts – are by the troll. Sorry folks, he / she likes to utilize my name for some reason – it goes back to last year!

Troll Alert...

September 17th, 2009
2:53 pm

I don’t think that even lakerat knows if it is really her or not. Hmm. Identity crisis much?

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
2:54 pm

@nurse&mother…sounds reasonable and responsible to me….And I didn’t think anyone could get along on this blog!

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
2:55 pm

Ahhhh, Jack, I see the trap now. I can’t speak for others, but my husband and I love and respect each other. Therefore there is no “need” to change any behavior as we respect each other. (you know the Golden Rule.) If I have a problem with something he is doing (or vice versa) all I have to do is go to him and communicate my needs and why something bothers me. Children are learning. They are not always equipped to be as mature. JMHO.

Alright

September 17th, 2009
2:56 pm

Just who is the “real” lakerat? An does anyone really care? I think not.

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
2:58 pm

LOL, Jack….I’m Episcopalian. Our motto is that we all can agree to disagree. Haha

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
3:04 pm

Different personalities in children may dictate which form of discipline works better. With some children, all you have to do is give them a dirty look (that was me growing up). Others can be more stubborn and will defy you (my sister was more like this). You can’t always use a one method fits all.

motherjanegoose

September 17th, 2009
3:04 pm

@ lakerat…I am in awe that you are in my corner….thanks!

@ jack 5656 I always read your posts and many times agree, just not today. I do not hink you are stupid! I always appreciate a poster who has points that cause me to think!

@ Kathy, the state SAT scores are based on the entire group of GA students who take them. Many states only have students take the test who are actually college material and thus those that would score at the bottom of the barrel do not even take the test, making GA look really bad as most kids do take the test. It helps when you look at school districts scores where most of the High Schoolers in Ga are heading to college…in Gwinnett County, we generally score well above many of the other 50 states and not as low as the overall state statistics some may read in the paper.

@ those who are posting as me ( 2:17) when I just walked in the door 10 minutes ago…I am not interested in joining the blog when others are falsely posting under regular’s names. Y’all enjoy yourselves….

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
3:13 pm

There’s no trap here Nurse&mother..just questions to clarify the issue.

I don’t want to put words in your mouth here, but what I understand you to say is the following:

Corporal is appropriate when it can effectively change the behavior of people who can learn a lasting lesson from the punishment, but do not have the maturity to reason and communicate with others.

Now, assuming that is an accurate restatement of your position….is it just for children or anyone?

motherjanegoose

September 17th, 2009
3:21 pm

In case anyone wants to know…most may not, while GA High Schoolers tend to take the SAT test, many other states take the ACT test. Here is an ACT statistic to show that we ( in Gwinnett County) do not need to be ashamed at the state test ranking. Maybe no one else besides myself and JJ ( in our county) ever spanked their kids and this is why the country scores look better….LOL.

I am sure there are more recent scores but I do not have time to look.
Just have to brag a bit but my kids ( who were both spanked as a LAST resort…like nurse and mother’s… and probably less than a dozen times in their lives) both scored substantially better than the county, state and national average.
In 2005-06, Gwinnett County high school students averaged 21.6 of a possible 36 on the ACT, besting the state average of 20.2 and the national average of 21.1.

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
3:22 pm

Jack, NOT necessarily an accurate restatement. For the most part are you agreeing with me or just trying to get me riled up? Are you merely playing the Devi’s Advocate (as I sometimes do myself). Depending on your answer dictates MY answer. I’m not going to waste my time if you are just baiting me. (I have a lot of things I need to be doing besides blogging). Obviously if you disagree with me, I am not likely to change your mind (and vice versa).

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
3:26 pm

MJG…thanks. I actually don’t think I’m in a huge disagreement with anyone here. I will concede that responsible, reasonable corporal punishment has it’s place in certain circumstances between a parent and a child (school corporal punishment is a much bigger sell for me).

I am still waiting on an answer for why it should cease though. So far nurse&mother is the only person who has tread that water. At the end of the day is it solely a maturity issue and with maturity it becomes obsolete?

penguinmom

September 17th, 2009
3:31 pm

I think a 12-18 mo-old child should only be spanked in a safety situation. When they start running away from you in the parking lot, then a small pop gets their attention and reminds them that running in the parking lot is not something they want to repeat.

We have spanked all of our kids at one time or another. Not very often, but it doesn’t take much and then the threat of a repeat is enough.

All of my kids were smart enough to figure out that they didn’t want to continue a behavior that would get them in that kind of trouble.

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
3:32 pm

Just as I thought, Jack. No it is not “solely” a maturity issue (although it helps). I have better ways to occupy my time. Sorry I won’t engage in a battle of the wits especially when one wants to twist my words. Have a good day.

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
3:35 pm

Ok, one last thought. One of the reasons it ceases is that as the child grows, often times, restricting cell phone usage, company coming over, etc. seems to work better than physical punishment. Like I said earlier, the method depends on the child’s personality.

Mackey

September 17th, 2009
3:41 pm

Why are we acting like all kids are the same? What may work for one child, might not work for the other. Spanking may work for one child, and do nothing for another. It may make one child aggressive, and another child well behaved the rest of their life. Stop looking for the “Perfect” solution, and learn your child and what works for them. But I would take my chances spanking my child as to putting them in Time Out. “Spoil The Rod, Spoil The Child”. Every since some dummy said spanking is bad for kids…people have stopped, and the behavior of these kids have blown to OUT OF CONTROL.

HB

September 17th, 2009
3:49 pm

“Many states only have students take the test who are actually college material and thus those that would score at the bottom of the barrel do not even take the test, making GA look really bad as most kids do take the test.”

I hear this argument a lot, and it certainly has some influence on Georgia’s ranking, but probably not as much as many people seem to think. Using this reasoning, you would think that Georgia students taking the ACT, who usually “are actually college material,” would have an advantage in those rankings, right? Georgia’s average ACT score is still below the national average and the state is ranked 40th — better, but still the bottom quartile. A few years ago, when a smaller percentage of Georgia students participated, the ranking was actually lower — 47th — so hopefully, that’s a sign that things are improving. Rankings only mean so much, but when a state is consistantly near the bottom in a lot of different categories (test scores, grad rates, etc), the problem cannot be attributed just to the ways the numbers are crunched.

But of course, as MJG said, you can’t judge all schools by the average because some individual districts will perform better than the average (and some will perform worse!). It’d be interesting to see if more affluent communities in Georgia with more students going to college score as well as similar communities in other states as opposed to a comparison with other states’ averages. Has anyone run across a study that does that?

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
3:52 pm

@nurse&mother…I SWEAR to you I’m not baiting you. It just seems to me that many people view circumstances deserving of corporal punishment a lot like the Supreme Court views pornography…they can’t define it, but they “know it when they see it”.

So what I’m trying to get at is this….WHO, in your opinion, is deserving of corporal punishment? In one breath you reserve it for children, and in another you reserve it for those of a specific maturity level. So is it an age test or a maturity test? You seem to have a very black and white view of who SHOULDN’T be subjected corporal punishment (most notably, yourself and someone’s spouse) and that ambiguity is what I’m having problems with.

I know immature adults who would learn a lasting lesson from corporal punishment, I’m sure you do to. I’m sure if I got electric shock punishment after my 4th speeding ticket in a 2 year span, I wouldn’t have gotten my 5th a year later, but that seems to be off the table to you, even though I will be the first to admit that it would effectively change my behavior.

So to go back to my earlier question, what is the caveat that makes you think, well we can’t do it to THIS person? And before you think that I’m just baiting you, consider there are other cultures who do not believe that corporal punishment should stop at childhood. I’m sure you remember the caning sentence handed down to the American teen in Singapore years ago. It would seem that our culture says the appropriate punishment for a similar offense in the States is not corporal punishment. I’m just wondering where the line is drawn in your view, and what the justification for it is.

Honestly, Singapore seems a lot less hypocritical to me.

On the other

New Stepmom

September 17th, 2009
3:52 pm

MJG, I was spanked when I needed it growing up and graduated from a Gwinnett County HS with very good grades and an ACT well above the averages you mentioned. You and JJ were not the only ones spanking in GC.

I do not spank my step child (reasons for that in yesterday’s blog), but can see that it may very well be a method I use with any bio kids I have. I do think it can be very effective for the reasons you and JJ have mentioned!

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
4:01 pm

@nurse&mother…how exactly did I twist your words? i made the caveat, “my understanding of what you said”……You were free to correct my understanding.

I think I’m asking fairly straightforward questions here, but in case I wasn’t, here’s one:

Should there be an age limit on corporal punishment?

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
4:06 pm

Jack your comment on the “know it when you see it” is certainly accurate. Common sense goes a long way. It amazes me that so many folks lack this trait (hence the need to define many things regarding this topic).

The law seems to state that one cannot use physical punishment on another adult. I’ve personally seen a few cocky college age guys get the snot beat out of them from their peers. Probably a much needed lesson learned, imho. These guys certainly changed a little bit for the better. (although I am NOT necessarily condoning taking matters into one’s hands-merely saying sometimes the ends justifies the means-in the adults only situation).

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
4:09 pm

@nurse&mother…I agree with you whole-heartedly on your premise that ‘restricting cell phone usage, company coming over, etc. seems to work better than physical punishment’.

What I’m saying is that in my experience, with my 5 year old, I’ve never found a circumstance where physical punishment was more effective than other means at my disposal to curb poor behavior. I fully recognize that can change tomorrow, and/or my child just may not be one of those kids that just hasn’t acted out yet in a way that deserved it.

On the other hand, I think we’re being naive if we think that there aren’t an awful lot of parents who spank for a mulititude of reasons that have NOTHING to do with correcting behavior, and those parents shouldn’t be spanking their kids.

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
4:13 pm

Jack I didn’t correct you because I felt (and maybe you are truly not baiting me) that you were trying to set a trap. We do have a few trolls on here from time to time. I am running short on time as I really need to be doing a little housework and spending time with my precious children.

Not sure about the age limit on corporal punishment. I personally think there would be a little less violence in our society if there was not an age limit. (not saying yes or no. ) Not sure exactly how to answer that one although I am inclined to say no on the age limit thing. I will have to mull that one over.

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
4:18 pm

Jack, I wholeheartedly agree with your 4:09 post. I have two children with completely different personalities. I discipline them a little different.

Yes, I agree that many may not use physical discipline the way I do. BUT misusing physical discipline has another name- abuse. There can be a fine line, yes. It may be difficult to define, yes. Sometimes it is one of those situations where you “know it when you see it”- will have to agree on that too.

Things in life are not always black and white. Most of the time there are shades of gray (as I am learning over the years).

Does that answer your questions?

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
4:28 pm

I promise when I say this is the last post, guys. lol.

I suppose that those of us who spank without abusing our children take offense to others who lump EVERYONE together with those who beat their children. I really disliked my development of the family professor in college for having such a self righteous attitude towards ALL parents who choose ANY form of physical discipline. I have a hard time with folks who can’t see that there is a clear difference in an occasional pop on the fanny or back of the hand (and not leaving a mark) with someone beating the stew out of an innocent child who spilled a glass of milk accidently on the table. I think one looses credibility if he/she can truly lump the two together. JMHO. Over and out, guys. Enjoy the rest of the day with your family.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
4:30 pm

Nurse&mother…you wrote….”BUT misusing physical discipline has another name- abuse. There can be a fine line, yes. It may be difficult to define, yes.”

And THAT is why I’m passionate about this topic and why this issue is scary. People seem to think that those of us who don’t spank are lazy or overly sensitive or weak willed. And I’ll concede that some of them are. But, IMHO, spanking your kid because a cop tells you the world would be a better place for it, or you were spanked as a kid and it worked for you, or “public humiliation does wonders”, are equally weak and lazy parenting philosophies.

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
4:32 pm

Common sense goes a long way, Jack. I don’t use physical discipline because my neighbor told me. I USE COMMON SENSE. Does anyone out there still possess a little common sense?????

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
4:35 pm

jack if you are having trouble with the gray areas in this topic, I suppose this is not the only issue you have trouble with. Life if full of gray areas. Not much is black and white (something I have had trouble with myself). Peace to you and have a wonderful day.

I apologize to the other posters who are tired of seeing my name.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
4:39 pm

I agree, N&M…the distaste I have for spanking has nothing to do with you…and I’m not lumping you in with the abusers or those who spank for the wrong reasons, if I gave you that impression, I apologize.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
4:48 pm

wow…just when I think we’ve found common ground I get accused of having other “troubles” with life. I’ll give you that though N&M, I’m not really a -”the Lord works in mysterious ways”, summarily accept actions without logic and reasons- kind of guy. You’ve got me pegged.

nurse&mother

September 17th, 2009
4:56 pm

If you didn’t notice I also admitted to having trouble with gray areas. (birds of a feather?) ;-D

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
4:59 pm

There is an exceptionally fine line between abuse and spanking. It really gets me that people think that hitting children is a fine idea when with all the research, in a variety of formats, clearly says it is not a good idea. My question to the spankers – would you expect your boss to hit you when you didn’t meet a deadline – as an adult? My guess would be no and you’d file a lawsuit for harassment. The notion that hitting children is acceptable because you can’t rationalize with a 20 month old is a lame excuse is all. There are a million ways to train a child to behave and spanking is innapropriate. And further, did anyone actually watch the primetime show last night? If not, I wish you did.

For the person who stated that a district report that many corporal punishments in the school – agains proves it isn’t working. Why are they still doing it, if what you state is true, when there is not one college of education has it as a ‘best practice’ in an education setting. Further, no college of education teaches educators on any of this, so why is it used in an education setting.

The main problem I had growing up is it definitely made me more defiant and then later on rebellious. It didn’t stop me from my own foolishness and I even dared my parents to ‘go ahead make my day’ a couple of times.

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
5:06 pm

I did notice that…I guess where we differ is that I don’t find it to be a trouble at all. ;-)

jack5656

September 17th, 2009
5:16 pm

hey N&M..since it looks like you’re checking in (and I have “trouble” letting the grey areas go ;-P), let me ask you a followup question.

You say you’re inclined to not have an age limit for corporal punishment.

With that in mind, what, if any, circumstances can you think of that might warrant corporal punishment to an adult over the age of lets say….21?

Becky (original)

September 17th, 2009
5:23 pm

nurse&mother..Laughing at your guestion of does anyone out there possess a little common sense?? My boss says that NO, noone has any common sense anymore..I don’t 100% agree with that, but I do think that most people don’t have it (or at least don’t use it)..

motherjanegoose

September 17th, 2009
5:23 pm

Interesting link for ACT scores:

http://www.act.org/news/data/07/states.html

Not as many Ga high schoolers take the ACT as do the SAT test. Other states prefer the ACT over the SAT.

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
5:24 pm

jack – great post at 4:30 pm

@nurse/mother – would you subject yourself to a whack from your husband when he says you have transgressed him – you know, just a little tap? My guess is no, am I wrong?

How about from your boss when you are habitually late, because you’re just not ‘gettin that being late from work is against company policy. Do you think just a small slap from your boss would make you change behavior..Again, you mention common sense – right back at ya dear.

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
5:29 pm

@Mackey
Are you saying that those of us who do not spank are raising out of control children? I assure you if you are asserting that, it is false. My children are far from out of control, they are not perfect, but they are not out of control.

HB

September 17th, 2009
5:29 pm

“For the person who stated that a district report that many corporal punishments in the school – agains proves it isn’t working. Why are they still doing it, if what you state is true, when there is not one college of education has it as a ‘best practice’ in an education setting.”

I’m the one who posted that, and I hear ya. I was stunned that there were over 600 instances in the one school. Like I said, it’s right next to another district that has banned the practice, and I am familiar with both and can’t imagine the school paddling 600 times is seeing significantly better results than the middle school 5 miles down the road in the next district. I was shocked that there was that big of a difference in the two discipline approaches since the two school systems aren’t dramatically different from each other. I would have thought that if one used corporal punishment and the other didn’t, that it would be somewhat rare in the one that did.

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
5:33 pm

A question for nurse/mother – you do realize that the latest research shows that when a teenager is subjected to corporal punishment, they often are more likely to suffer depression, confusion, drug/alcohol problems, trouble in school and on and on and on and on.

I can tell you flat out that it did not work for me, that I was defiant and had problems and I believe it negatively impacted me for life. I believe I was one very confused teenager who dabbled in a lot of foolishness, and I am lucky to be here today by the grace of God. But the hitting never ever stopped me, it spurned me on to defy authority more. That is why I chose non-spanking.

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
5:38 pm

HB – what’s their testing scores at the school system reporting and is it broken down by individual school, now that would be an interesting study.Are any of the schools on a needs improvement. Have the numbers of corporal punishments risen and what have AYP done in relation to that? Now that would be interesting. What’s funny to me, is why is all this data collection even going on. What’s the point of documenting this really

I also pulled an open records request, would you believe 1 district reported over 2000+ in 2008. I kid you not.

By the way there is this little diddy just published in August:
http://www.hrw.org/node/84950 — which chronicles stuff going on in Georgia.

This report spurned a campaign in Florida that is ongoing on Facebook called ‘
Stop Hitting Our Kids Now – with over 700 members and still growing:
http://apps.facebook.com/causes/341382/41469811?m=6987e7df

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
5:45 pm

looks like one of my posts has been placed in time out.. not sure why

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
6:14 pm

HB – what’s their testing scores at the school system reporting and is it broken down by individual school, now that would be an interesting study.Are any of the schools on a needs improvement. Have the numbers of corporal punishments risen and what have AYP done in relation to that? Now that would be interesting. What’s funny to me, is why is all this data collection even going on. What’s the point of documenting this really

I also pulled an open records request, would you believe 1 district reported over 2000+ in 2008. I kid you not.

By the way there is this little diddy just published in August:
http://www.hrw.org/node/84950 — which chronicles stuff going on in Georgia.

This report spurned a campaign in Florida that is ongoing on Facebook called ‘
Stop Hitting Our Kids Now – with over 700 members and still growing:
http://apps.facebook.com/causes/341382/41469811?m=6987e7df

notgonnagiveone

September 17th, 2009
7:33 pm

Oh, and the top 10 things story…NOT 10 things…four things…one thing repeated with variation six times then three others (praise/reward six times and then the tenth is to make sure you do number one which was praise/reward…the other three were ignore, one time instruction and stay calm)…the argument is as old as time…to spank or not to spank (and the article you posted was about abused people … not spanked people so the association people draw from that is valid. To your mind spanking is abuse…

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
7:45 pm

Unfortunately about half people polled will say that spanking is abusive and the other half will say not so. People’s attitudes have changed, because it was never thought of as abusive in the 70’s. At risk youth are more likely to be abused. And most people’s attitude about spanking is that it is good if it is a ‘controlled’ spank or loving spank. The notion of a loving spank is an oxymoron.

deidre_NC

September 17th, 2009
8:59 pm

lmao @ captain hammer ..”No, spanking a child does not make them dumb. If that were true most of us would be retarded that was good ….i was spanked..i spanked…or hit or whatever you want to call it. sometimes thats what it took…i didnt abuse. my kids are smart. they are not dumb and are not violent. wonder how that happened. btw-im pretty smart too and not violent. miracles do happen.

Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
9:02 pm

I really need to just shut the hell up because I’m the only one still talking and no one is listening to me.

Troll alert Retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
9:23 pm

9:02 post not me

catlady

September 17th, 2009
9:31 pm

Retired nurse and mother: I am a teacher with 38 years of experience. I have 2 master’s degrees (one in early childhood education) and a PhD, all from large state universities in the Southeast. My PhD was in research and policy analysis. I’ve had quite a few child development classes at BS and MS levels (and made As in them). I am a parent of 3 adults and (now) 2 grandchildren. I was NOT spanked as a child. My mom’s degree was in psychology, and I was a very timid child. My dad never raised his voice to me.

Used judiciously, a spanking can clear the air about who is in charge. I stand by that.

The study that provoked this seems to have SERIOUS problems in terms of design. I wouldn’t bet a cup of coffee on its results.

HB

September 17th, 2009
9:43 pm

Just curious, catlady, what about the design of the study bothers you?

Kathy

September 17th, 2009
9:46 pm

If you want to know anything about what is actually going on in your school district….Contact the state DOE. They will give you the answers that locals don’t normally like to leak….like corporal punishment. Now, why do you suppose the local system does not disclose the number of hits during a BOE meeting? How many of you actually can send me a site showing research that shows that children do better on high stakes tests if they are hit in school….high stakes test as per the federal No Child Left Behind. In Georgia, 3, 5, & 8 grade CRCTs…11th grade GHSGTs L/A and Math.
I would also like to see the PRO spankers, (other than SM…LOL) to show me that spanking keeps kids in school long enough to graduate, which is also a measure of NCLB. Don’t care about NCLB? Well, it is the federal law and school systems that don’t think the USDOE law applies to them? Not true because NCLB is tied to funding from Federal Dollars, Title I, which is WHY states monitor local eduaction agencies regarding Title I mandates. Anybody have a problem with holding parents responsible for disciplining their own kids instead of using our tax dollars to fund Title I schools to spank kids, which may make them dumber and deviant? Let’s see, Georgia schools utilize spanking in the education process, Georgia is 47th in the national standings as per SAT scores, and from my understanding Georgia has a overwhelming prison population. Could be a coincidence….

retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
9:50 pm

Catlady. Will you discredit other studies from the University of New Hampshire, Tulane University and Dr. E.T. Gershoff too?

Kathy

September 17th, 2009
9:59 pm

motherjanegoose: I submit the School Council Institutes argument to your SAT claim.
Common issues. When analyzing test data, a few other points commonly come up. SAT scores have become the standard the public uses to rank states and high schools. When states are ranked according to the SAT, Georgia usually ranks in the bottom 5. The participation rate (70%+) is usually brought up as one explanation for the score. Georgia does have a high percentage of students taking the SAT. Yet Massachusetts and Connecticut have more than 10% more students taking the SAT and score more than 69 points higher. Delaware, Virginia and Maryland have about the same participation rate as Georgia, yet score significantly higher. The percentage of students awarded a diploma is also about the same as the percentage of students taking the SAT. Clearly, the participation rate is not the problem. The SAT is designed to measure how well prepared a student is for college. Our SAT scores reflect that too many of our students are not prepared for college. ACT scores are not as widely reported, but Georgia also ranks in the bottom 5 on that test.
http://www.georgiaeducation.org/councils/2009%20Section%202%20-%20Data%20Analysis.pdf
see pg. 2.10

Kathy

September 17th, 2009
10:10 pm

For those of you not sure what in the world the Georgia School Council Institute is…CHeck out Georgia HB 1187 at the GDOE website. Or check out OCGA 20-2-85 and OCGA 20-2-86.
This is actually a law for parents to be involved in the education process…..which is likely the majority of parents and community folks have NEVER heard of a school council in their area. Great ON THE ONES WHO KNOW and actually utilize their school councils for any advocacy other than fund raising……for the local principal.

retired nurse/mom

September 17th, 2009
10:38 pm

penguinmom

September 18th, 2009
12:06 am

@ retired n/m – It is true that different personalities in children mean that spanking is more/less effective depending on the child. It sounds like you were a fairly strong-willed child. So, spanking might not have worked on you or your parents might have not used it effectively. Other children are so sensitive that just a word or disapproving look is all it takes. Spanking in those cases should be extremely rare. Most kids fall in between and are not going to be harmed by occasional corporal punishment along with other types of discipline all meted out with love and firmness.

I think saying spanking is always hitting is absurd. Have you ever seen a football player give another a slap on the bottom? That is not ‘hitting’ and yet I don’t spank any harder than that when I spank my children. In fact, I have in the past kidded around with them and ‘patted’ their behinds about as hard as I would normally spank them. They laugh as much as if I was wrestling with them or tickling them. The reason they cry when I am spanking them is because they know they’ve done something wrong and they feel bad about it.

Some children actually prefer a spanking because then the punishment is over and done with. They can move on without having to be frustrated by loss of privileges or extended time-outs.

This study only showed that spanking a less than 2-year-old child in a low income situation might cause a rise in aggressiveness. Did you notice they were spanking their 1-year-olds an average of 2 times a week? Obviously, there were other issues going on. I’ve never known any 1-year-olds that needed serious discipline 2 to 3 times a week. So, it is somewhat reasonable that this kind of excessive discipline (number not type) would lead to issues later in life. This study doesn’t really transfer to middle or upper middle class parents who spank their children (usually older than 1) on occasion.

Tiffany

September 18th, 2009
12:06 am

It is NEVER ok to hit a child. I am very sorry to know that some of you will justify just about anything.

motherjanegoose

September 18th, 2009
5:00 am

A Kathy….thanks for sharing the information.

I personally get frustrated when folks criticize the scores of Ga students. I know that students in my own country and school district score relatively well….a neighbor had a perfect SAT score.

Kind of like saying ( to me) , “oh, you are from the south….do the kids wear shoes to school there and do you have running water….haha ?” “Well, many of the homes in our area are as nice or nicer than those others will ever see in their area and quite a few do wear shoes that are nicer than the shoes your kids bought at Payless or Target..”

Where I live is not a total reflection of the entire state of GA ( some places are better!) and where my children go to school is a far cry from some districts. There are folks, usually in the north and northeast who look down their noses at the south and some are, quite frankly, surprised when I am hired and they can actually learn something from me…it makes me laugh as everyone can learn something from anyone.

My husband and I moved to our county and ultimately our school choice was made on the basis of the type of education our children would receive. He has driven 30-45 miles one way, to work for 20 years. My own children have done well and so I am satisfied. As we both know, a lot of it is about the home environment and there are many ( in our state) who do not have an educational environment nor would the parents even know how to have one for their children if it hit them on the head.

I will absolutely agree that if I had a small child, I might be anxious about the quality of education that my child would receive in GA and would they be able to compete with the children across the country. A lot can and has changed in the past 20 years and in the next 12.

We made our choice ( regarding schools) 20 years ago when we moved to the county and the 12 years ago when we moved to our neighborhood. I have been mostly pleased with the schools and my children have done well. If I had to start all over again, I might be looking at it more carefully.

For me, my children have received a suitable education. The variety of classes offered and the course rigor of the classes did prepare my son and hopefully will prepare my daughter too.

In the higher performing states, what do we attribute the higher scores to? College educated parents? Dual parents in the home? Higher Income? Private schools? I’d like to know.

motherjanegoose

September 18th, 2009
5:13 am

Me again and I have a question…does anyone know if ,across the U.S., more students actually take the ACT or the SAT?
I have always wondered why the claims made regarding GA schools depict the SAT score vs. ACT. Many children in other states do not even take that test and the students who do tend to apply private schools where one would presume the stakes to be higher. As I said, this does not really affect me. The test is a done deal in our house with the scores being just fine.
Just wondering…..

BB

September 18th, 2009
8:24 am

I have been a Georgia teacher for 35 years. I spanked once. That was about 30 years ago. It didn’t help.

HB

September 18th, 2009
8:39 am

MJG, I’m pretty sure the SAT has always been more common nationwide, but some states have preferred the ACT. I think Alabama did in the past (don’t know about now). Missouri did — my college roomate only took the ACT. I’m not sure how many others. It’s striking, though, that with fewer students taking the ACT as you’ve said, that Georgia still lands in the bottom 25% for that test. You would think that would give GA an advantage.

KidsRpeople2

September 18th, 2009
9:56 am

Bainbridge Georgia Board of Education Affirms Use of Corporal Punishment is today’s news headline. What a sad testament in American society that studies show that hitting children is harmful to their development and already ILLEGAL for a reason in schools in 30 states, yet we have fearful, ill-equipped “educators” who would rather take the “easy” way out when it comes to “Discipline”, rather than teaching children responsibility and compassion based on MUTUAL RESPECT!

Retired nurse/mother

September 18th, 2009
11:03 am

Tiffany – I agree with your 12:06 a.m. post.
@KidsRPeople2 – just read that article.. all I can say is… wow.
Wonder what the data will show or what their drop out rates are, what their student achievement is. I do know one thing – my district does not use corporal punishment and our SAT scores continue to go up, our drop out rates are less and less each year, and all schools met AYP.. I guess we’re doing something right.

Retired nurse/mom

September 18th, 2009
3:15 pm

@penguin. I was not a strong-willed child but did eventually become that way.

Kathy

September 18th, 2009
4:40 pm

When I was president of our high school’s PTA, we had the ACT folks come speak to our community. ACT and SATs appear to be just like everything else….once a tradition, belief, or value is embraced by a community, district, and even states, as in this case, the more likely the status quo will go on unchallenged. Both tests are college entrance exams, and I believe it was two years ago that Georgia’s 2-yr. colleges no longer require SAT or any college entrance exam. However, the ACT folks were awarded the college placement exam (CPE, which students take for a degree program) contracts. When we had the ACT folks about 5 years ago, a few of the central office staff were in attendance at the PTA meeting and told me that they had never heard of the ACT.
The differences and experiences of all people can actually bring out the best in a community and I think motherjanegoose is absolutely correct in concluding there are many variables to an “appropriate education.” Parents with resources to make decision for their children are actually empowered. However, too many in Georgia schools do not even have enough money to cover lunches for their kids. Georgia received $390,158,366.00 in Title I funds (grant money from the USDOE based on the number of free and reduced lunch recipients, which is addition to supplementing the costs of lunch the poor, who are NOT always black or Mexican) for FY 08, and even more in FY 09 and FY 10 because of the federal stimulus money. Thousands of poor who do not have any expendable income to support extra PTO projects, serve what purpose or role? I think if we can figure out a way to hold parents accountable for their children, engage them in the local decision making process, and create a paradigm shift from parents being the ATM and real partners in the education process, then we are likely to see more districts being successful.

Kathy

September 18th, 2009
4:50 pm

Clarification for last sentence:
shift parents from being the ATM to being real partners in the education process…..

Retired nurse/mom

September 18th, 2009
5:11 pm

Kathy – rock on.. How many districts actually encourage people to attend local school council meetings?

Retired nurse/mom

September 18th, 2009
5:12 pm

I am proof positive of the backfiring of corporal punishment, so why is it that school districts continue with this practice?

Kathy

September 18th, 2009
5:19 pm

Retired nurse/mom… I went to 7 schools in our district to read the council minutes that are supposed to be at the front office for the public to review within 3 days of the last meeting. Let’s just say, I had the law in hand to show the principal that it was my right. The number of visitors at those councils? ZERO! of course holding meetings at 0700 certainly doesn’t seem to help.
SCHOOL COUNCILs could actually give recommendations, advice, to the principal and LBOEs. That my friend is why they are KEPT secret. Also, precedent was set when councils came into law in 2002. Remember that the principal was the leader??? Well, even with ammendments to HB 1187, HB 1190, that gave parents the majority and the leadership…..the principal is STILL in charge.
As you can probably tell, this is a touchy subject and one that gave hope, only to be pulled out from under parents.

catlady

September 18th, 2009
5:42 pm

Retired N and M: I give little credence to research that is merely correlation. You can correlate IQ and car tag number, but what good would it do? Due to the nature of the question, it would be much more of a challenge to design and statistically parse out the causation. For one thing, you would need a very large sample, no rater biases, and statistical controls for the vast multitude of other variables.

Is spanking the answer to every problem? NO. Is it a tool to stop some problems? YES. Does an occasional spanking produce psychopaths? Naw.

Retired nurse/mom

September 18th, 2009
5:48 pm

catlady – Did you read the other studies I cited ?

Look Up Dr. Strauss’s Work of UNH, I think you’ll find his studies more to your liking and standards.

Retired nurse/mom

September 18th, 2009
5:49 pm

Further name one study that is evidenced based of the efficacy of corporal punishment and its relationship to improving student achievement. There isn’t one!

motherjanegoose

September 18th, 2009
9:28 pm

Thanks Kathy for the new and interesting information.

Here is a question I have had for a while:
If parents actually do not have money for their children’s lunches…how is it they drive nicer cars, wear more jewelry, have fancier handbags and their children wear more expensive shoes than my kids?
Isn’t it ultimately about where you place your priority? The areas that have significantly higher SAT/ACT scores certainly have an educational priority.

To me, my kids and family is my priority. I want my children to be prepared to succeed in the world with the best education I can get for them. The purse I carry this month will be long gone when they are trying to pay their bills, as adults. The environment of learning, I provide, will have a long term effect. Some folks are so shallow that they think others are impressed by what they wear and drive…maybe so…not me!

HB

September 18th, 2009
10:12 pm

“If parents actually do not have money for their children’s lunches…how is it they drive nicer cars, wear more jewelry, have fancier handbags and their children wear more expensive shoes than my kids?”

But do they? Do you personally know people with this lifestyle who you know have signed their kids up for free lunch? The kids I’ve known in the past who were on free lunch were not wearing great shoes, and their families didn’t have fancy cars (currently, I don’t personally know any kids on free lunch). Is it really that common? I’m sure it happens, but how often? I mean, I hear this a lot, but usually from people who don’t actually have access to information on which students get free lunch. Catlady, do you know which of your students get free lunch? Are they usually wearing fancy shoes and their parents driving new cars, or is that pretty rare?

Kathy

September 18th, 2009
10:44 pm

Motherjanegoose asked, “how is it they(folks who can’t afford lunches) drive nicer cars, wear more jewelry, have fancier handbags and their children wear more expensive shoes than my kids?
Isn’t it ultimately about where you place your priority?”
Free and reduced lunches are based on reported income for the parents, reported being the KEY here. I know a few kids who had to work and go to school and they buy themselves, “stuff.” Now, let’s just get this out there…. if there are not enough jobs in a community folks might have to go “underground” (deviant and criminal activity) to earn an income to live the “American Dream.” Let’s face it, dealing drugs can be profitable in a nation that eats pills for everything from going to sleep to getting up and then back down. I hesitate to lump all parents whose children receive a free or reduced lunch into a single group. Just as I see no reason why some of these kids might have material things normally reserved for the middle or affluent classes. I would also share that children in the custody of DFCS receive free and reduced lunches, but these kids might have relatives who shower them with gifts every once in a while.
Is it about priority? Perhaps. I would also ask could it be that most parents want their kids to have it a little better than they had it and they will do whatever it takes, even working 2 or 3 jobs? Even if parents can’t provide for everything, maybe portraying their kids as having more is an image that makes them feel like they are making it or to minimize the taunting from kids who actually appear to have everything. Remember the ole cliche` “keeping up with the Joneses?”

Retired nurse/mom

September 18th, 2009
10:58 pm

Kathy

September 18th, 2009
11:17 pm

Quick question for Catlady: you stated, “I give little credence to research that is merely correlation.”
Truth is, in using the scientific method outcomes in research using humans is rarely 100% because we are all different and behave with a certain amount of predictability. Research allows for the sample group to be at least 30, but must be by random selection. You cite several variables and confounds that may have influenced the research. However, a study is rarely conducted to just go on record or in the books. From my understanding studies are also intended to spark further research. Research utilizing humans will always be scrutinized because of the ethics involved and the confounds can be overwhelming and impossibe to control by the researcher. Most research on humans is based on probability of behavior. For instance, when researching human behaviors we can’t be 100% sure how long a human can go without a heartbeat, food, water, or oxygen before they die because of the circumstances and the individual, and most of all chance. Some may call a highly predictable outcome that does not happen, a miracle rather than chance. Did you see the lady who got a tree limb through her neck? How about Jaycee Duggar surviving for 18 yrs as a prisoner after being kidnapped? Remember Phineas Gage who had a tamping iron that went through his cheek out the top of his head? Situations that are not cause and affect because of chance to some, but miracles to others.

HB

September 19th, 2009
12:35 am

I agree with Catlady that correlation does not equal causation, but to me, that does not mean this study is flawed (I’ve been a researcher for several years now). The study may raise as many questions as it answers, but that’s not a bad thing — it’s information that may lead to the next step in study. The results here were that kids in the sample spanked at age 1 were more like to be agressive and not score as well on cognitive tests as non-spanked kids at age 3 — that’s fact. I don’t see any obvious flaws here to indicate that it’s not reasonable to project those results to the larger population conclude that spanking at that age is a good predictor of aggressive behavior among low-income children, even if the spanking alone did not cause the result. Note: the researchers quoted don’t use the word “cause.” One calls spanking at age 1 a “predictor” of aggression and a “reflection” of a negative parental relationship, but does not say spanking itself is the cause of aggression. So now the question is…why? Is it simply being spanked that’s the issue? Is it that parents that spank that young are more likely to spank often? Is it a sign of the developmental stage of the child’s brain at that age 1? For example, do other forms of punishment, perhaps largely verbal, better help a child develop thinking skills? Does perhaps a verbal warning help them better a certain area of the brain than a pop, which may inspire more of a primal fear than conscious reasoning? Or does spanking correlate to another harmful factor in the home or the lack of a helpful one in nonspanking family (perhaps more verbal cues from parents)? So while the study does not give a simple straight-forward answer to the big question, I don’t think that’s an indication that the study is flawed in its design or that the information yielded is not important or useful.

Kathy

September 19th, 2009
12:56 am

We might also consider genetics and it’s influence on the cognition of the children, which may be why some score higher on a given assessment amongst the sample group. There may be some neurological reasons a child may not score as high on an assessment, and I believe a child’s diet and/or allergies can certainly influence behavior. I also saw a special about enlarged tonsils and adenoids that interrupted children’s sleep, which resulted in aggressive behaviors.
We need to remember that there is more to teaching and learning than using the behaviorist only discipline because we are talking about humans, not animals.

Kathy

September 19th, 2009
2:20 am

I am curious as to how many of you are familiar with NCLB mandates and the progression of proficiency for the CRCT math and L/A and Reading and the GHSGTs? AND have children that are currently in school on or after 2002, which is when NCLB became law? By 2014 every child, except those taking alternative assessment (2% of a school distircits population) must be proficient in Math and L/A and Reading, which are combined scores? The graduation and attendance rate during testing must also show a targeted increase. The reason I ask is because NCLB is tied to federal dollars, which is causing some frustration in school districts and states who utilized social promotion and who backloaded the level of efficiency on the high stakes tests. ( Ga. set the bar low and set minimal incremental levels of proficiency because they believed NCLB would not be reauthorized and it would go away)
As we get closer to 2014 the levels of proficiency increases to eventually 100% proficiency, and more schools are not going to make AYP, and likely fall in the Needs Improvement category….which can eventually lead to the state stepping in and restructuring the schools taking funding. Education is no longer about going to school and checking in and out….we are talking about MONEY…$$$$ hundreds of millions to Georgia alone…and who in the world believes folks wont do everything in there power to NOT disrupt the educational welfare coming from the USDOE? Drop out rates should be posting soon to the GDOE, Report Card…..my prediction? WE will see an increase in drop outs amongst at risk kids (NCLB kids) who are the most likely to score poorly on tests that determine adequate yearly progress. The same kids who are the most likely to be spanked in schools according to the ACLU.
Having a child in the system now allows parents to see the stress on teachers. Budget cuts left them with pay cuts in our district even though they did a great job in the regular education programs for our kids. Tolerance will be replaced with intolerance. More and more teachers will embrace a ZERO tolerance for whatever they want, and it’s only going to get worse. I am fortunate, my son is in honors and athletics, and he has a mom and dad who are active in the education processes. However, it is going to take more than 10% of Georgia’s population to run the state and attract businesses and jobs.

Tiffany

September 19th, 2009
11:55 am

Don’t you wonder if someone is going to spank an innocent one year old baby, what on earth would they do to punish an older child? It is scary to think about. If you were a child that was spanked since you were an infant…of course you might have some psychological problems.

motherjanegoose

September 19th, 2009
3:30 pm

@ HB…yes, I am making an assumption about those who are on free and reduced lunches…here is why: when a school is documented to have over 90 per cent on free and reduced lunches and I see the bling on over 50 per cent of the kids and parents….I simply tend to think this way.

Perhaps I am wrong and all of those who are driving the kids to school in Hummers. Jags and BMW’s are actually kind neighbors who have nothing else to do ( as they have so much money they do not have to work) and are thrilled to drive the neighbor’s kid to school. While they are at it, they may as well get all dressed up too…probably heading out to the country club!

Call me hopelessly old fashioned but I was taught that if you want something bad enough you work for it…house, car, jewelry, clothes, education whatever. I guess this would even apply to kids who know the rules and behave…some parents do not want to work at discipline and thus the schools are receiving more and more children who will NEVER be ready to learn.

It’s too bad that so many in America think that someone else owes them…where is it written? When children grow up in this environment, no wonder they come to school with a chip on their shoulder and have no respect for those who study hard to make good grades.

Perhaps we need to look at the immigrants who came to America with nothing but the clothes on their back and a work ethic. Many of them endured rotten conditions and work environments in order to better their families.

HB

September 19th, 2009
4:15 pm

Many immigrants still are. Those are among the children I have known in recent years who received free lunch. Example: I know one school with high free lunch rates that keeps a clothes closet for students. I helped my mom with a project for several families there, including an immigrant family with 4 children who had very little. The family did have a car — an old one that got Dad to and from work as a landscaper. Mom cleaned houses and took English classes when she could. We bought toys and books for the children, school uniforms, some play clothes, and shoes. The counselor at that school said most children in the school were in the same situation. Perhaps there is greater abuse in some areas than others, but when I worked with low income schools in the past (haven’t in the last 4 years), I didn’t see Jaguars dropping the kids off or huge amounts of jewelry or designer clothes. There is most certainly abuse of the system in this country and some parents teaching their children they are owed somthing, but there’s an awful lot of actual poverty too, so I do think it’s important not to lump all people accepting help into one negative assumption.

motherjanegoose

September 19th, 2009
5:05 pm

I AM ALL ABOUT HELPING CHILDREN. I think I mentioned that I took a box of girl’s clothes to a school a few weeks ago where I have a friend who is a psychologist and he passed them on to the counselor to dispense to families in need. I would never turn away a hungry child. We have donated to food pantries for years.

My son tells me stories of young patients ,who drove through the Pharmacy where he worked, filling dermatology prescriptions payed for by Medicaid ( a $500 prescription) and they would be driving a Hummer. Meanwhile, he has a 10 year old Saturn and is working his way through college. This week he told me of a lady who reported her purse stolen…she had $1600 cash in it and $200 worth of food stamps. WHO CARRIES $1600 IN CASH and where did the money come from? Smells fishy to me and even him ( although he is only 22 he has seen a LOT).

Last fall, when gas was over $4 per gallon, I observed several parents (in a school known for free and reduced lunches) driving their kids to school in the cars I mentioned above. I am wondering how they can afford the gas if they cannot even afford the lunch.

I have shared my disgruntles with teachers and they just nod their heads in embarrassment and say they see this all the time. This is why some schools in poorer districts advocate uniforms…I saw this first hand a few weeks ago. When children all wear the same type of outfit, there is not as much competition and thus they can get down to business and learn.

While I used to be optimistic, when I was much younger…I am not so much now. I have worked hard to build my business and am willing to pay taxes on the income I earn to help those who are less fortunate. I despise paying taxes for those who have never worked a day in their life and are reproducing children who could be of the same mind and then continue to vote for someone who will be the Pied Piper and promise take care of them too, To me, if more people are receiving than are paying…the money will run out but I am not a economist!

My children will be out of the local schools in the spring. I am not an advocate of spanking for misconduct and most certainly not in the school system. I have spanked my own children, when the situation called for it: immediate danger or flagrant misbehavior. I am an advocate of children accepting punishment for their wrong behavior,

For the Pollyannas out there…I hope that your children are will not be in the public school system long as more and more children are arriving from homes where there is no discipline and this WILL affect the atmosphere in which your children learn.

My children have been in public school K-12 but I fear for potential grandchildren and it has occurred to me that I may need to be saving for a private education for them…if the behavior continues to decline in the families that populate some public school systems.

FYI….regarding the ACT /SAT debate….it just occurred to me that I must live on the right block as we have 2 Valedictorians of our local public high school….one 2 doors to the right and one 4 doors to the left. I am thinking that if we can assume the entire state of GA is an embarrassment due to the poor testing scores and how they rate on a national basis…I ( perhaps) can claim that we have a smart block with 2 children who graduated at the top of their class..just not mine. Oh excuse me, I now see that it does not have to do with the location but the inspiration of the parents…LOL!
Yes, some parents are inspired in the state of Ga but too many are not.

Finally, @ Kathy…I just realized that you are probably not the regular poster who is a colleague of mine and former Kinder teacher. It confuses me when 2 people post under the same name. You seem to be older than her as her child is in preschool. I assume you have been Kathy longer that her…just not who I was thinking about.

HB

September 19th, 2009
10:00 pm

“WHO CARRIES $1600 IN CASH and where did the money come from?”

Since she was carrying food stamps, I think it’s enitrely possible the money was from welfare. That may sound odd, but when I was a bank teller in an area of a town where most poorer residents lived, I was surprised to learn that most people receiving assistance there cashed their entire checks on the 3rd and went around to downtown offices paying rent, utilities, etc in cash. Even after reforms kicked in that year that I think required most recipients to use direct deposit, people came in and withdrew in cash all the money from the account on the 3rd of the month. Most of those customers had savings, not checking accounts, and very few withdrew a portion periodically throughout the month rather than withdrawing it all in cash as soon as it was deposited.

HB

September 19th, 2009
10:16 pm

I meant to say in part from welfare — clearly time for me to go to bed…

Kathy

September 20th, 2009
1:27 pm

motherjanegoose wrote, ” You seem to be older than her as her child is in preschool. I assume you have been Kathy longer that her…just not who I was thinking about.”
I might have been Kathy longer if I didn’t change my name from Sarah, or I had my son when I was 13….. or even if I was born before your colleague….none of which has been disclosed.
However, your deductions are correct IF your friend was born after the initail attacks on Pearl Harbor….
This was actually fun because it can teach all of us to be aware of how we might pick up clues and draw conclusions about anybody we encounter. I hope you don’t mind motherjanegoosse as I actually enjoy the dialogue of others who are thinkers.

motherjanegoose

September 20th, 2009
1:53 pm

@kathy…the Kathy I know ( and who has been posting on this blog for a long time) is in her mid thirties.
She actually called me over a year ago to see if it was me….motherjanegoose….on this blog.
We got a good laugh over it.

Some posters get in a huff when others ask, “who are you….you are not the original Kathy…”so, I did not want to approach you this way.
This has happened to Becky ( who posts often on the blog) a few times. I was trying to be considerate and note that if you mother a high schooler ( if my memory serves me?), you may have had the name Kathy longer than the Kathy that we already know on this blog, who has a preschooler.

FYI…I recently spoke with someone who knows way more about this than me: I was told that schools with larger numbers of students on free and reduced lunch do, in fact, have lower test scores….HMMM.

JC

September 20th, 2009
1:55 pm

I was spanked regularly as a child. Everyone remarked on what a well-behaved little girl I was. It wasn’t until I became clinically depressed and started really struggling in high school that they figured out I had ADHD, and put me on Ritalin. The medications majorly improved my life, turned me into an A student all through college, and I’m still on them now. I just want to make this point clearly, because many people seem to think children with ADHD “just need a good spanking” – but it’s actually a neurochemical disorder that’s lifelong for over 50% of patients, and nothing except medication will fix it because of the physiological basis.

Kathy

September 20th, 2009
2:11 pm

motherjanegoose: you are absolutely correct in the lower test scores and poor correlation. However, if you dig deeper, before NCLB’s mandate of highly qualified teachers it was the poor schools that had the highest numbers of “out of field” teachers. Meaning, math teachers teaching SS, L/A, science, etc.
I have always thought. If we have only begun educationg minorities equitably and de jure(on paper of course) since the ESEA of 1964, then perhaps we might be led to fully understanding the old riddle: What came first The low test scores or expectations?
BTW: I would not have been offended by the OK(original Kathy) as I realize I am fairly new to the AJC’s site. I also realize that is such a common name and I might have some anonymity! LOL
Folks up in the “city” have proximity to lawmakers going for them….and some of us appreciate all of the advcocacy on behalf of all of Georgia’s children. We can never have too much.

Retired nurse/mother

September 20th, 2009
2:15 pm

@motherjanegoose — schools who have a lot of reduced lunch students are supposed to be receiving extra Title 1 funds to help them succeed.

@JC – I am sorry you went through that. It is a fact that students with disabilities are more likely to be spanked in school. Read Impairing Education that was released in August. My quetion is why is the State of Georgia continuing to allow this when they know darn well of this report. I myself sent it to them!

motherjanegoose

September 20th, 2009
4:07 pm

Yes they are but as Kathy mentioned, which came first the chicken or the egg. To me, home environment and attitude about education ( before kids ever come to school and when they are at home each day) is not always changed by food or Title 1. Sometimes it can be done and those tax dollars are well spent. Unless there is abuse…arguing about spanking is a moot point as there are thousands of children who have never caught the excitement of learning and never will. Some do not even like books…any wonder when they are in public housing with a BIG SCREEN?
Children need to see readers in order to be excited about reading.

Do some research yourself and see the correlation. It is disheartening but revealing. I do not personally have a dog in this fight as my kids are out and on their way out. They both went to public schools we selected and scored well. I am not here to argue but to say…I see the attitude sliding into the toilet, as I observe students in some schools and no matter how much money we throw at them, the home environment perhaps will not change.

If I had my wish, I would have funding and grants to visit all schools in low scoring areas as I know I have a chance to engage Kindergarteners in the excitement of learning. I would love to travel all week to those schools ( next year when my daughter is in college) and share what I know to strengthen the aspect of literacy. Currently, I can only work with schools who have money to pay me and this is not all local schools.

Retired nurse/mother

September 20th, 2009
6:23 pm

motherjanegoose – you make some great points. However I beg to differ on the spanking issue. It’s been proven that many of the districts that utilizing this discipline method also are not receiving positive results, the question is- why bother using something as antiquated as a paddle to hit a kid in school under the guise of education. And it also isn’t moot because let’s face it – everybody and their brother is making hoopla over the 2 stories in the news about the elderly gentleman spanking another person’s kid. Why arent’ people make hoopla over ‘educators’ who continue to do this – under the guise of education – when the practice itself is not benefiting anyone? Not one educator – – can honestly say they took child development courses or higher education classes that say paddling is appropriate in schools.. There are no such classes! And if you read one of the links I posted, even a GA. professor that teaches Criminal Justice made comments about these matters!

Kathy

September 20th, 2009
6:42 pm

motherjanegoose: believe it or not all of those poor schools could and should use Title I funds for someone like you. However, too many do not fully understand who can have a say where Title I funds go. Did you know parents are supposed to be in on that decision making process as well? Section 1118 of NCLB. Title I schools are supposed to spend 1% of the funds on parent involvement and engage parents in writing local compacts between parents and teachers. Unfortunately, too many outside the “school” boundaries TRUST the schools to do what is right and fair.
Parent’s are not necessarily stupid, we are too trusting. Perhaps some of this apprehension in our society toward BIG government will open the eyes of folks to see that they could actually make a bigger difference in local politics. To another point: Folks who don’t have children can still help poor schools. Many schools collect Boxtops 4 Education, Tyson Chicken Labels, ink cartridges, and Campbell Soup Labels. Rather than throwing this money in the garbage, take your labels to these poor schools and ask them to use the labels for books! Except for the ink cartridge program, all the others can be found by Googling them.

motherjanegoose

September 20th, 2009
6:50 pm

I have NEVER claimed to be in favor of paddling in schools NOR paddling someone else’s child.

I am NEVER talking about districts. Someone brought the school paddling into this topic and it was not me. I personally thought the topic centered around families and how they disciplined their own children. I guess it struck me to be families as there are not many ONE year olds in school.

If parents have no idea how to discipline their children and nor how to send them to school as respectful individuals free lunch or Title 1 money is not going to fix the problem….in my opinion.
Yes, all children need some form of discipline at one time or another and each child responds differently to discipline choices.

Many teachers ( I know) would rather have students, in their classrooms, who at one time had a pop on the hand, butt or even threatened with a switch ( at home) than some of the students they see today who are downright mean and ill mannered. Kids are running the show because some parents are trying to be their peers and not damage their self esteem.

When kids are taught they have to work hard to accomplish something and overcome the obstacles that may thwart their efforts, then they are proud of themselves when they cross the finish line to accomplishment. I daresay that we have more and more kids who do not even know how to start a project, much less finish it.

motherjanegoose

September 20th, 2009
6:59 pm

@ Kathy…I was in a school last week and met a professor ( older than me) who is a reading specialist in our county. She came to me and said, “Oh my goodness….you have so much learning going on in your presentation…it awesome.” She has been hired by the county for at risk schools.

I have, in the past. donated and shipped boxes of books to schools where there is simply NO money. I have also donated FREE programs. Once, I was hired by 2 Catholic Schools in Alabama who then raised money to send me to a poor public school. It was heart wrenching to see those children and the playground….cement with metal swings that were all worn out and probably had been there since I was in school. Those kids were SO excited about my visit and I was delighted to be with them.

Even if some groups could raise money to sponsor me, I would love to do it and would certainly give a reduced fee, as I am passionate about getting children excited about learning!

leigh

September 20th, 2009
7:11 pm

True hitting is hitting yet there are many types of hitting. I have spanked my children, done the time out thing, and several other things to get them to behave. What might work for one parent may not work for another because there are also many types of children.

Becky

September 21st, 2009
10:14 am

MotherJaneGoose..You refrence about kids getting free (or,reduced) lunches, rings beels with a fellow coworker.. She raised cain last year because her child was turned down for free lunch, yet about every 6 months he gets a new phone, they are always going out to eat dinner at nice restaurants about 4-5 nights per week, she eats out lunch every day, about 2 months ago he was given a truck..Any time that he wants something, he gets it, as does her daughter that is now away at college..All of this from a woman that always plays the “single mom” with no child support card..She never factors in that they all live with her mom..She will tell you that she’s never had any help..

Sorry for such a long post, just thought this might give some insight on free lunches..

retired nurse/mother

September 21st, 2009
11:51 am

leigh – what if your children once all grown up will tell you how badly they felt from it, then what would you think?

motherjanegoose

September 21st, 2009
7:27 pm

@ Becky…then you do know what I mean. If folks work for thing themselves, I do not care if they own a Hummer and a Mercedes…good for them. If they are using my tax dollars, then it is a different story all together!

crystal9999

September 23rd, 2009
2:38 pm

i am currently writing an argument essay in school on spanking! i am for spanking. as a child i was spanked and i believe it did alot of good. spanking is not violent and is harmless if done in a non abusive way.spanking teaches kids that what they did was wrong and there are consequences. i know that i didnt do alot of things when i was younger because i didnt want to get a spanking. it taught me respect for authority and dicipline. i believe that parents should be allowed to spank there own child and if other people have a problem with spanking then they should find other ways to discipline there child and stop butting into other peoples lives and the way other people decide to discipline their children.

PDeverit

October 11th, 2009
5:56 am

Child buttock-battering vs. DISCIPLINE:

Child buttock-battering for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit.

Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.

I think the reason why television shows like “Supernanny” and “Dr. Phil” are so popular is because that is precisely what many (not all) people are trying to do.

There are several reasons why child bottom-slapping isn’t a good idea. Here are some good, quick reads recommended by professionals:

Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak,

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson,

NO VITAL ORGANS THERE So They Say
by Lesli Taylor M.D. and Adah Maurer Ph.D.

PDeverit

October 11th, 2009
6:01 am

Most compelling of all reasons to abandon this worst of all bad habits is the fact that buttock-battering can be unintentional sexual abuse for some children. There is an abundance of educational resources, testimony, documentation, etc available on the subject that can easily be found by doing a little research with the recommended reads- visit http://www.nospank.net.

Just a handful of those helping to raise awareness of why child bottom-slapping isn’t a good idea:

American Academy of Pediatrics,
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
Center For Effective Discipline,
PsycHealth Ltd Behavioral Health Professionals,
Churches’ Network For Non-Violence,
Nobel Peace Prize recipient Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
Parenting In Jesus’ Footsteps,
Global Initiative To End All Corporal Punishment of Children,
United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

In 26 countries, child corporal punishment is prohibited by law (with more in process). In fact, the US was the only UN member that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Mr. Mom

October 13th, 2009
10:24 am

This topic interests me and I’ve done a lot of reading on it. I’d gladly give up my right to smack, spank, hit my kid, whatever you call it, and ban spanking altogether, because I believe it might prevent a child somewhere from being abused or killed in the name of discipline.

Granny

October 22nd, 2009
8:58 pm

Our prisons are overflowing with individuals who were not spanked, individuals who ruled at home as children and individuals who were highly praised at home for good behavior but rarely disciplined for bad behavior. Disciplined by talking and talking and talking after repeated inappropriate behavior. America has produced children who lack showing respect for all and children who manipulate their parents and authority to get their way. I feel sorry for these children but most of all I feel sorry for their parents and anyone they come in contact with.