College money: Are you saving in this economy?

A new Gallup survey found that because of the economic crisis, 47 percent of parents are saving less or aren’t saving at all for their kids’ education. The survey was released in May by student-loan provider Sallie Mae.

From The Wall Street Journal article:

“While not saving for that degree may have felt like a smart move while the stock market was crashing, the need to fund your kid’s college account has only grown. For the 2008-2009 school year, the average cost of attending a four-year public school for in-state residents — including tuition and room and board — rose 5.7% to $14,333, according to the College Board. The cost was up 5.6% to $34,132 for a private university. (These numbers aren’t adjusted for inflation.)”

“Meanwhile, the value of 529 college-savings accounts sank 21% last year, according to Boston consulting firm Financial Research, leaving families with far less tuition money than they had counted on.”

529s are college savings plans that work much like Roth IRAs. You contribute after-tax collars, but if the money is used for qualified purposes neither your contributions nor your investment income will be taxed by the federal government when it is withdrawn.

However, these plans get complicated because they are governed by states and each state handles the tax breaks and benefits differently.

The LA Times reports:

“ The combination of differing rules and a cacophony of confusing investment options have made the plans tough to navigate and can discourage their use by less sophisticated savers, said Joseph Hurley, founder of SavingforCollege.com and author of ‘The Best Way to Save for College: A Complete Guide to 529 Plans.’ ”

“Only about 5% of middle-income filers use the accounts, according to Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner, even though the tax breaks can make saving through these plans vastly more lucrative.”

“They are a hit among high-income filers, Geithner added. Roughly one-third of top earners have a 529 account. Roughly 11 million accounts have been opened since the federal government gave them tax exemptions in 2002, and they now account for about $100 billion in savings, according to the College Savings Plan Network in Lexington, Ky.”

The Obama administration through a vice presidential task force has made recommendations to make the plans easier for Middle Class families to use. The article says three of the changes have been well received (although it doesn’t detail them) but the other two are controversial.

The first recommendation suggests that each plan offer at least one cheap and easy, hands-off investment plan for parents – which seems to make sense. I’m not clear why that would be controversial.

The other suggestion is to eliminate “home state bias” to make it easier for parents to invest in out-of state 529 funds.

Clark Howard rates the different state’s plans and tells you which are the best.

Also here is a link to The Wall Street Journal article, which explains and examines some different options for saving for college such as:

The 529 College Savings Plans

The 529 Prepaid Tuition Plans

Uniform Gift to Minors Act and Uniform Transfer to Minors Act

And finally here are links to two college calculators:

This one tell you how much you need to save.

This one tells you how much financial aid you can expect.

So are you in the 47 percent who have either cut back savings or are not saving at all for college? What is your plan if you are not saving now? If you are saving now, how are you investing? What is your plan? What resources have you found useful?

47 comments Add your comment

Photius

September 15th, 2009
8:23 am

We are investing even more in spite of tough times. With the stock market still down, potential returns in the future are just too good to ignore.

lakerat

September 15th, 2009
8:30 am

Great topic – jut be careful that the money is used for college educational purposes to reap the tax benefits; if utilized for anything other than educational purposes “if you withdraw money from a 529 plan and do not use it on an eligible college expense, you generally will be subject to income tax and an additional 10% federal tax penalty on earnings”, much like an early withdrawal from a 401K plan.

lakerat

September 15th, 2009
8:43 am

Great topic – but just make sure you use the money for post high school eucational pursuits; if use otherwise, “if you withdraw money from a 529 plan and do not use it on an eligible college expense, you generally will be subject to income tax and an additional 10% federal tax penalty on earnings”, just like when you withdraw early from a 401K plan.

motherjanegoose

September 15th, 2009
8:44 am

We saved enough money to help our son who is now in professional school and officially on his own. Even with the HOPE, college expenses pile up. Since I am a saver by nature, our son never qualified for any free money, even though he applied.

I remember when I was in college and my parents never contributed a dime. They would not allow me to fill out any financial aid, as it would disclose their info. Finally, when I turned 21…I applied on my own and got $65 in a Pell Grant. WHOOPPEE!

Do any middle class families actually get free aid for in state public schools? When they told us how much we are expected to pay, I laughed. Maybe we did not do things right and should have spent every dime we made.

Who can afford to send their child to college when the fees are over $30,000 without aid?

I am working my tail off and have some money saved for our daughter and we will work through it each year. If either of us lose our job…we will be toast.

lakerat

September 15th, 2009
8:44 am

Sorry for the double post – it was there 13 minutes ago, then not there (so I posted again), and now it is there twice!!!!!

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

September 15th, 2009
8:46 am

Right before things got really bad last year Michael had moved most of our money out of the stock market and into safer investments — the only thing he couldn’t (didn’t) move was their educational funds and they did take quite a hit — We do have the Georgia 529s for two of ours — We haven’t started Lilina’s yet — We went with Georgia’s based on Clark Howard’s guide — also for the tax benefits — I’m fascinated by the number that only 5 Percent of middle class families are taking advantage of them!!! It’s confusing so people aren’t dealing with it — that’s why I put up all the explainer links — maybe that will help some parents get it started!

new mom

September 15th, 2009
9:06 am

First of all, happy birthday, MJG!
Second of all, no baby yet :)
And to the topic, we have an investment account for our daughter and will start one for our baby once she arrives. After weighing the options, we chose to not use a 529 plan and started an account similar to our IRAs, which allows us to have more control over the money, both on the investment side and then when spending it. Chalk it up to our distrust of the government, but we were doubtful that the rules wouldn’t change several times in 18 years, and we didn’t want our hands tied when it came to exactly how our money is spent. Plus, if she receives a full scholarship and doesn’t need the money for what the government says we must spend it on, she can buy a house, leave it there for her retirement, etc.
We have an auto-deposit for that account and will do the same for the baby’s, and don’t plan to change that–like photius said, times are almost too bad to not invest!

Theresa Walsh Giarrusso

September 15th, 2009
9:15 am

Happy birthday MJG — New mom I think I’m posting on childbirth either tomorrow or Thursday — tune in if you’re home~!!

jct

September 15th, 2009
9:21 am

Happy Birthday MJG.

On topic, we did the same as new mom’s family. Not out of distrust for the government but we wanted more control over how to spend the money. This turned out the best for us since our son has chosen not to attend college. We are giving our son until January to figure out if he wants to attend college or other types of educational training. If not, we are going to start using some of the improvements we need to make to our house.

I think the 529 program is a great tool but it may not be the best tool for all families. Maybe that is why middle class participation is lower than those of higher incomes. There is no way we could predict our son’s choice when we started saving 10 years ago.

Stan

September 15th, 2009
9:27 am

Happy B-day MJG!

I think I’d be with new mom on this one. I’m confident that the rules of the 529s would change before the kid got to school and I prefer to have better control of the investment even at the expens of tax benefits.

New Stepmom

September 15th, 2009
9:27 am

Happy B-day MJG!

We need to look into college savings. We are beginning to rebuild our savings after many months of my husband being unemployed. Thank goodeness I waa able to keep my 401K going during his out of work time.

We are on the hook for 100% of my stepdaughter’s college which should work out because child support goes away at that time, so I think that money will go to college instead of her mom and it should cover college expenses-it is a lot every month.

Now, for our kids, we will have to look into all of the options when they come along. I have mixed feelings on the 529 for reasons listed above. I am looking forward to hearing about what tools everyone is using.

new mom

September 15th, 2009
9:31 am

jct, that was another factor for us….what if she wanted to go to culinary school? or some other route that required a large sum of money but wasn’t a traditional school? We just didn’t want someone telling us our daughter’s needs didn’t fit some government rule, when it is our money to begin with. So it was a trade-off for us, but we think it will be worth it in the end.

Hmmmm, I’m sure there will be plenty of horror stories on your childbirth topic, Theresa! I may want to hide my eyes and read after she arrives…Although, once you’ve been through it, it isn’t as scary. At least you have something to compare it to! I will try to check in, if I’m here. :)

JJ

September 15th, 2009
9:35 am

Happy Birthday MJG!!!!

Save what you can as often as you can. College tuition costs are going up up up each year……..My mom did a 529 for each of the grandkids, and there was enough for my daughter to get through her first year. We applied for grant money, but I was turned down too, which really upset me…….if a single mom can’t get a little help for college, who can?????? We were offered about $3,000 student loans, but chose not to accept them this year.

Anyway, we will apply again this year for next year.

motherjanegoose

September 15th, 2009
9:53 am

Thanks for the birthday wishes! My husband is home with me to meet the air conditioner repairmen.
Guess what I might be getting for my birthday….hahaha! At least we have another unit upstairs and it is not all that hot outside….just stuffy.

To those of you whose parents help with your children’s college YOU ARE BLESSED. Neither set of grandparents has even indicated they would consider it.

All I got for my 50th birthday from my Dad was a card and a phone call…no gift. When my family had my surprise party for me last week, there was a VW bug filled with presents and balloons parked in front of the restaurant when we went in. It said,
HAPPY SIXTEENTH BIRTHDAY! Wow….I am 50 and I never got a new car….haha!

momnteacher

September 15th, 2009
10:38 am

@new mom and jct: Your educational savings accounts sound more like what we’re looking for; if you don’t mind sharing, how did you go about finding those types of accounts? My husband and I both have savings accounts (as do our girls) and retirement accounts, but we really need to start saving for our little ones. The 529/Coverdell/etc. accounts are all very confusing to me, and I think I’m pretty financially literate! I’ve been researching, but the amount of information is a bit overwhelming!

deidre_NC

September 15th, 2009
10:41 am

happy birthday MJG—hope its a great day for you!

one of the benefits of being laid off from my good paying job for months and then FINALLY getting a not good paying job…my daughter qualified for 100% financial aid. she also recieved scholarships but when you get financial aid you dont get the scholarships. she had planned to go to a 4 year u then changed her mind and is doing college transfer for 2 years then continuing forensic science chemistry at the 4 year u. im assuming that unless the economy gets great and i get a much bettter paying job she will continue to get 100% financial aid. if something happens to all that she can get scholarships.

so far we have taken no loans…remember she just started her first year…i hope and pray she never has to do that…id hate for her to graduate college with debt like that. she works to supplement and i help her very little…i would help her more but im not able to. her grandfather (sperm donors dad) has helped her a LOT with vehicle costs…reparis etc..so that has been a godsend.

for people who dont have money to save for colleges….there are a lot of 2 year degrees you can get that will make you a good living…and then you can continue your education at night school or online. people have to start looking at non-traditional ways to get higher education. my sister and her husband lost lots of money in a college fund they had for their daughter. imnot sure what they are gonna do. imo it is way more important to save for retirement…your kids can find a way for college if they want to go bad enough….but who is gonna support you when you get old if you have no retirement?

endthemisery

September 15th, 2009
10:51 am

does anyone else hear Kathy Bates’ voice from Misery?

New Stepmom

September 15th, 2009
11:11 am

I will give huge KUDOS to my parents. They give my step daughter and my nephew a small “fun gift” for birthdays and Christmas and a check for college. I am very thankful for that!!!! Over 7 years and 18 year respectively that will add up!

deidre_NC

September 15th, 2009
11:18 am

i said ‘one of the benefits’ what i really meant was ‘the only benefit’ lol..

Becky

September 15th, 2009
11:36 am

newmom, hope your birthday was great..wishing you (still) the best with the new baby..

MJG, HAPPY BIRTHDAY..Hope it is wonderful..New cars (IMO) are highly overrated..Heck, out of a family with 9 sibs, only one of my sisters even remembers when my birthday is..No big deal, I still know that most of them love me and at my age, I don’t let it bother me..

motherjanegoose

September 15th, 2009
11:47 am

FYI…I did try to wish Nurse and Mother a Happy Birthday YESTERDAY but there were so many comments that it may have gotten buried. Do not forget her….the topic was very full on the blog and some may have not remembered.

I appreciate all the kind thoughts today and am blessed that I am healthy, enjoy my job ( I took off today), have a great family who will take me out to dinner….my husband brought me bagels this morning, and 2 kids who I am usually proud of. I also have friends ( imagine it) who have called and e-mailed me already.

Have fun everyone!

DB

September 15th, 2009
11:59 am

I’ll add to the birthday greetings, MJG!

I sorta laughed when I saw the title of today’s blog. Saving at this point? Haha!!! At this point, it is ALL outflow — this is what we had been saving for all this time. Oddly, now that they are out of private school, in many ways it’s actually CHEAPER for us for them to be at university (especially since the son isn’t home and eating!!) They did their part — they worked their butts off and obtained grants and scholarships that have helped a great deal. We are generally paying for room and board, and helping with books. My son is responsible for all his own fraternity fees

New Mom, your comment regarding culinary school reminded me of something that happened a few years ago. I was working with a soccer league, and a mom called up wanting to enroll their 3 year old in the soccer program. Our program didn’t take kids until 4, and I told her that. She was very offended, and explained that her husband, the child’s father, had played soccer in Europe (big whoop, frankly, there are so many more layers of professional and semi-professional soccer there,
but she was impressed), and that they felt that he needed to get into training early if he was going to be similarly competitive. I just stared at her and then asked, “What if he decides that the wants to go to culinary school? They don’t have a soccer team.” The mother got an outraged look on her face and snapped, “THAT’S not going to happen!” Poor kid — 3 years old, and already had his life planned out for him . . .

The grandparents have not assisted financially with college costs. One grandmother has six grandchildren currently in college (yeah, we all got busy at the same time!) — it’s impossible, and, frankly, not expected. She sends them little gifts of money now and then — a welcome $10 or $20 or so now and then, enough for a small treat, or a dinner somewhere other than the dining hall. The other set of grandparents are dealing with so many health issues that it’s all they can do to remember birthdays.

KMM

September 15th, 2009
1:02 pm

great topic! I was just thinking about getting back into contributing to our Roths (after they lost more money every month than we were contributing, we took a break) and starting a college savings for our 2yo.

Anyway, I have to throw out there that I am not a big fan of the 2-yr school first to save money. I went to Emory and my husband went to a 2-yr school and transfered to a 4-yr school in NC. The freshman experience at Emory was amazing. The amount of growth you get from being on your own away from home(2-yr schools don’t usually have dorms) is worth so much. I also think that the level of academics at 2-yr schools can be good, but is not like going to a liberal arts school where you can take literature courses instead of English 101 and the History of Jazz music and other amazing courses. IMHO, I think college is about a lot more than just the career you start when you get the degree. Just my 2 cents. And while my parents paid a good chunk of Emory’s cost, and Financial Aid paid some, I have $150/mo payments I will be making until my 2 year old turns 15. But I’m ok with that.

Christina

September 15th, 2009
1:06 pm

My reaction is the same as DB’s. We stowed away money before the recession hit, and have been pulling from those savings just to make ends meet, now that my husband has had to take a much lower-paying job. As a result, we haven’t contributed anything to our IRAs in the last two years. Our 401K deferrals have continued at the level we’ve always done, but plans for a 529 had to be tabled. We have a small amount of money that was given to our one-year-old as gifts toward his education fund, but not enough to justify starting an account.

I have started using the UPromise rewards system, which contributes money into an “account” whenever I buy certain products or shop at certain stores. It’s pennies on the dollar, but it’s better than nothing. If I can’t make tangible contributions to his college fund right now, I can at least get rewarded for purchases I’m making anyway!

mom3boys

September 15th, 2009
1:26 pm

Son one is on HOPE. He also has a job to help pay expenses. We pay about 6-8K per year for room/board/books. Yay for HOPE! Even when we were unemployed, we didn’t qualify for any aid…not sure how poor you have to be for that…I felt pretty poor. Son #2 is at a Service Academy…so only expense is traveling to and from said academy. Since he had some college $ put up, we use that for travel. If your child has a desire to serve the country, academies are amazing oppportunities. Many schools don’t talk them up…son is getting a top notch education and will be guaranteed a job upon graduation (as a 2nd Lt.). Many private colleges are better bargains than state U’s w/ HOPE. The privates are so well endowed, they offer far more aid than say, UGA. Son #3 will explore privates when his time comes (although really wants to emulate son #2). I don’t understand parents taking on huge amounts of debt to finance degrees at top universities, especially in areas the kids have no chance of finding a job in (i.e. psychology)….maybe it’s to find a wealthy mate =). At any rate, it’s tough navigating all of this, and many people aren’t able to save for it…there are ways to get an education without the big bucks. If you are not requiring good grades of your kids, do so now…they need to get and keep HOPE.

new mom

September 15th, 2009
1:39 pm

momnteacher: to answer your question, several years ago we met with a financial advisor to roll some old 401ks together into IRAs, and even though he’s commissioned (something our friend clark howard advises against) we really wanted someone to be there for us that knows what they are doing, someone we trust, etc. and not be in charge of it all ourselves. Anyway, we basically set up a mutual fund account through him as well for our daughter–but it’s technically a joint account belonging to me and my husband. If she decides to disown us and run off to join the circus, that’s our money, no questions asked. We took his advice on the agressiveness of our investments based on her age and therefore the time we had to let the money sit, so it is a little more conservatively invested then our IRAs. We then set up a bank draft where a small amount comes from our checking each month to this account, so we don’t have to rely on our memory to make deposits or anything. In a nutshell, it’s a mutual fund account that we are calling (and intend on using on) college.

DB, that’s funny about the culinary school comment. There are just so many options for young people that, even though I want her (ooops, them) to get a 4-yr degree, I understand that each child is different and will have different needs. They are the ones who have to live their lives!

Bob

September 15th, 2009
1:41 pm

Forget saving for college. With the debt burden our new president and the congress has laid on their backs, the only thing youngsters need to save for is their share of the bill. After that if there is anything left, they might be albe to save some for college unless the congress lays another hit on them.

JJ

September 15th, 2009
1:41 pm

Put something away, even if it’s only $25-50/month.

motherjanegoose

September 15th, 2009
1:41 pm

@ momof3boys….great points.

I am very happy that our son already has a 6 year employment record with a major Pharmacy Store and thus can most likely stay with the same company and have 10 years towards retirement when he graduates at 26. Of course, NOTHING is certain…we have all seen that.

I am not about impressing those with college. I am more about getting them through college with a side line of work experience and knowing they have a good shot at a job when they get out.

I am concerned for my daughter, as she is confused about a major and what type of job will be out there. My son has a few friends who are finished with their undergraduate degree and working at jobs they are not thrilled with….just glad to be employed.

What do you do if you have huge loans from expensive schools and you still cannot find a job?
Even worse, your parents did everything for you and you have NO work experience.

I do find it interesting that more folks zoned in on the MTV topic yesterday than are here today….can we assume that TV is much more important that college or planning for our kids future?
Or are folks so depressed that they need to entertained and not reflect on reality?

motherjanegoose

September 15th, 2009
1:44 pm

oops…”THAN college or planning” and “they need to be entertained” .

catlady

September 15th, 2009
1:46 pm

Also don’t save money in your kids’ names, because they will be expected to contribute all of it towards their education re fafsa.

ant banks

September 15th, 2009
1:54 pm

the “go to college and get a good job” mentally is passe for 2009. this is no longer the case. i have 8 friends who have kids who have finished college with varying degrees and have found no jobs, despite being good students!! 20 years ago, you go to college graduate, there was a job waitin’ for you. it’s different now. thousand of jobs have been sent overseas. businesses closing, etc.
kids need a trade/skill to go along with a college education. please look up the 20/20 special about college graduates who don’t find jobs!!
electrical, cars, refrigeration, air conditioning, computers, funeral directors, day care are not going anywhere!! regardless of the economy. please consider these trade schools.

ant banks

September 15th, 2009
1:59 pm

the military is a great option, also!! you get a great job, benefits, healthcare, get to serve your country and get a skill, provided that you score high on the ASVAB. you can also go to college while in the military.

i am a desert storm/desert shield vet and proud of it. i attended college while in the army. it paid 80% of the tab. when i graduated, i had NO loans, had job experience and a vet status on my resume. i walked right into a job.

WOW - slow day on this site

September 15th, 2009
2:07 pm

…guess you can’t have timely topics like Prezbo speaking to students or young singers getting dissed on national TV every day to keep the bloggers interested. But then again, maybe tomorrow’s topic on birthing may be the topic that will bring out (so to speak) those who only chime in when there is a racially charged topic – even when race has nothing to do with it!

jct

September 15th, 2009
2:19 pm

@momnteacher

I worked with a fee for service financial planner. We meet once per year to make sure that I am meeting my financial objectives. The fund we opened is really a mutual fund that is in our name but we earmarked for educational funds. This is good for my family because our son has chosen not to go to college. He is trying to figure out if he wants to attend further training programs (of course we want him to but it’s his life). He has until January 2010. After that we will start to use the money on the house.

Even though I work at a large university, I know it that it is not everyone’s destiny to get a liberal arts degree. I wanted options.

I guess newmom and I think a lot alike when it comes to finances.

nurse&mother

September 15th, 2009
2:31 pm

Happy Birthday MJG!

JJ

September 15th, 2009
2:39 pm

Catlady – you are correct…..DO NOT PUT THE MONEY IN YOUR CHILD’S NAME…….

Christina

September 15th, 2009
3:28 pm

ant banks, I agree that too many people hold bachelor’s degrees now. As a culture, we are becoming overeducated. (And at the same time, are we any more intelligent? That is debatable.) I graduated from UGA with many classmates who still are working “below” their education, or who had to pursue advanced degrees in something more specific. College savings accounts like 529s can be used for trade schools, as I understand it.

ant banks

September 15th, 2009
3:35 pm

CHRISTINA,

i think that the 529’s can be used for trade school, but i think that most parents are under the notion that there child is going to COLLEGE/UNIVERSITY.

i have a niece who is a junior in high school and her high school has partnered with a trade/tech school. she attends school until 2 and then goes to the trade school from 2-5. when she graduates she will be a dental tech and employable right out of high school, all without a 529 plan

DB

September 15th, 2009
3:37 pm

I’ll chime in with the “don’t put it in your kid’s name” chorus. My son has worked since he was 11 years old as a soccer referee and as a lifeguard, and has put aside a nice chunk of change. If it was in his name, it would have been gone instantly on his first day of college — and at the end of four years, he would have nothing, except a college degree and a hope of graduate school. It was a nice chunk of change, but compared with the tuition and fees at most college, it was a drop in the bucket.

jct

September 15th, 2009
4:02 pm

529s can be used for trade school. But what if you child does not go to college at all? We have one child. We have no plans to have another. That train has definitely left the station. We needed the flexibility to spend OUR money the way we see fit. The 529 is just too limiting for our family situation.

Becky

September 15th, 2009
4:36 pm

What is the best plan to save with if they are 7 and I know that the parents will not encourage them to go to college, but we as the grandparents will? I would like to make sure that the money (or some) is there when they are old enough..Any suggestions? Thanks..

kaab

September 15th, 2009
4:40 pm

I’m with jct. I’ll pay taxes and have control over my money. If my child decides not to go to college and wants to purse a non traditional career, I want him to have the money to do so. OR if he decides to be a bumb. I can pay for a trip or a car for myself and my husband with the money.

Christina

September 15th, 2009
4:42 pm

jct, I’m not saying everyone who has a child should have a 529 plan. I realize that a good number of people can be trained (arguably more effectively) in a career without going to college, and maybe even without having to enroll in a trade school, like it ant banks’ example. As I’ve noted, I don’t even have a 529 yet for my son, and I hope to have a couple more someday. I was just pointing out that the 529 doesn’t have to be used for a university, in the “traditional” sense. Certainly, if you need the flexibility, you shouldn’t have your money invested in a strict-use account.

And I’d like to jump on the “don’t put the money in your child’s name” bandwagon. But not just for FAFSA reasons. My husband and I married shortly after college and then learned that my father-in-law had multiple, high-dollar investments in my husband’s name. He was taking advantage of his son’s lower income tax bracket. We were not happy about it, but were more than happy to point out two years later that our tax bracket had caught up to his (which finally convinced dear old dad to move the rest of the money back to his own SSN).

DB

September 15th, 2009
5:58 pm

OT, here, sorry Theresa: But I just wanted to say how sorry I was to learn of Patrick Swayze’s death yesterday. He was such an interesting man, and many of us on the blog probably fondly remember him in “Dirty Dancing” and “Ghost”, as well as other popular films. He managed, in Hollywood, to stay married to the same woman for almost 35 years, and showed grace, courage and grit in battling pancreatic cancer. RIP, Patrick.

fk

September 15th, 2009
6:06 pm

We did not invest in a 529 savings plan for our son’s college education. We lived well within our means, even below it, and saved. I was a sahm for many years, and just before he started high school, I went back to work. That was added income that we did not have in 15 years. He is a HOPE recipient and also gets scholarship money for his participation in a sports program. He has taken out a student loan and we’ve picked up the balance. His savings from the jobs he worked thru high school cover his social expenses. We’ve not yet decided if we are going to pay back his loans or let him do it after he graduates. Right now, he thinks they are his responsibility.

Romase

October 3rd, 2009
6:23 pm