Chivalry is MIA
One of my friends is dating a guy who – according to her – is a little lacking in the chivalry department. We have even jokingly referred to him as “C.L”. aka chivalry-lite. Although we make light of it, I suppose it could actually be a real red flag.
She believes that his lack of chivalry is because of his upbringing: Not raised in the south, not raised with a father in the home. She says she noticed that it started out small like not opening doors, not bothering to see if she got home safely, and now he shows no signs of true gentleman behavior – at all.
I am surprised she has been so patient with him because she is a stickler for this kind of thing. It just makes me wonder how women like to say we want and desire certain traits in a man, but how often do we drop the guys that don’t have them?
I don’t know how attracted I could be to someone with zero, zilch, nada to offer in the chivalry category. I mean, it’s one of those things that can make a woman feel special, so why wouldn’t your man make the effort to do so?
Do you think that a woman should dump a guy whose chivalrous behavior is MIA?
Guys do you think being a gentleman in dating is still expected? Do you and your friends believe in chivalry? Was it a part of what you were taught about being a man?
How important ..or unimportant is chivalry today? Do you think chivalry is MIA on the dating scene?
By Wise Diva, Misadventures in Atlanta.
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284 comments Add your comment
Rodney
August 16th, 2011
10:05 am
I don’t see what the big deal is – I open doors for anyone I’m with, regardless of sex. I was taught that’s just the proper thing to do. You think of others before you think of yourself.
That said, I don’t think I’d like to be around anyone who expected it. And, in expecting it, had an issue with it if someone didn’t do it. If holding doors and seating you in your seat in a resto is a requirement for you, I think that’s just egotistical and frankly, kinda sexist.
a fan
August 16th, 2011
10:05 am
I bet if you asked all the girls on Jersey Shore they would want to be treated like a Lady. HAHAH but that will never happen.
Randyt (aka, BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, HAVE A CLOSET FULL OF T-SHIRTS)
August 16th, 2011
10:05 am
I haven’t read the posts but it seems to me that the angle here is “what did you expect?” A boss of mine used to say “bad news is not like whisky, it does not get better with age”. Women that hook up with thugs or “non-chivalrous” people are 99% delusional (I am assuming that 1% might change although have never seen it) if they think someone is going to change for the better just because of their feminine charms. One thing someone can count on is that if the fundamentals, i.e. a heart, consideration, “chivalry” aren’t there when the man is at his best behavior in the beginning…it ain’t gonna happen.
I am always amazed at how women think they can reform a man…then many cuts and bruises later finally someday realize that it is not the “man”, it is the “men” one is connecting with. Chivalry isn’t dead, you just have to find better places to shop.
Simple Man...
August 16th, 2011
10:06 am
TenderRoni, If its considered whining when guys comment on the expectations of women, please tell us what do you consider it when women comment on the perceived social short comings of men????
Southern Gentleman @ 45
August 16th, 2011
10:07 am
Dan I think you misunderstood what I said or maybe I was not clear enough so allow to me try again.
“”Chivalry is far from being dead however, it has to be earned like respect.” does not equal” Politeness to others should be an every day occurence however chivalry, which is going beyond just being polite with things such as openning a door, is something that most gentleman do not give out frivolously. I am polite to everyone I encounter but true chivalrous behavior is something that one must earn.
Of course my idea of chivalry may be more than what your idea is so that might be part of the confussion. For me, being polite is opening doors, saying ‘please’ and ‘thank you’, ‘yes sir’, ‘no ma’am’, even pulling out a chair for a lady is being polite. Chivalry is more of how a person acts, behaves and believes, not being polite. It is something a person does without thinking, a reaction to a situation and the environment they are in, hence the “as natural as breathing”.
Sorry for the ‘book’ lol.
The man formerly know as Dan - still...Superior
August 16th, 2011
10:08 am
@MDot
There is no pressure to be anything/anyone but you Joe. The rest will follow.
As for women their version of chivalry it’s being what you may need in a given moment; not what she feels you need, but knowing you well enough to know what you need.
The man formerly know as Dan - still...Superior
August 16th, 2011
10:11 am
@SG
Then we’re on the same line, for me being chivalrous is being polite.
Randyt (aka, BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, HAVE A CLOSET FULL OF T-SHIRTS)
August 16th, 2011
10:11 am
I noticed that one person indicated that true gentlemen are courteous even when and to who they don’t have to be. I agree. Another suggested that we aren’t talking about chivalry, but common courtesy. I agree also. If someone doesn’t possess these by the time he is an adult, then chances are hw won’t.
Also, lipstick, makeup, and hair do not make a lady…for the record.
DreamsMaterialize
August 16th, 2011
10:13 am
but the vast majarity of the time, it’s just a word thrown in because they don’t really have a concrete reason.
Sighing Your cynicism regarding the use of certain words is counter to the constructivism representation of empiricism, but instead seems to support the idealism branch of epistemological thought. The autodidactism of my approach makes me wonder about the nihilism of it all. Have I piqued your skepticism? lol
SouthernandLovingit
August 16th, 2011
10:13 am
I think chivalry should be the standard at the beginning of most any date and then it morphs into what the person or persons expect and do. But if a woman is put off and declares me “sexist” because I open doors for her and the like, you are WAY too uptight for me and that attitude will trickle down into the rest of the activities. In those instances, I bid you Good Night, Sleep Tight and don’t expect any additional calls from me.
Leggs
August 16th, 2011
10:14 am
Nor does pants, shirt, and boxer shorts make a man…for the record.
Randyt (aka, BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, HAVE A CLOSET FULL OF T-SHIRTS)
August 16th, 2011
10:15 am
@ Leggs…RIGHT.
KimZ'sPackage
August 16th, 2011
10:18 am
Chivalry is not being Polite.
Did nobody read King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.
The Knights Code of Chivalry and the vows of Knighthood
The Knights Code of Chivalry described in the Song of Roland and an excellent representation of the Knights Codes of Chivalry are as follows:
To fear God and maintain His Church
To serve the liege lord in valour and faith
To protect the weak and defenceless
To give succour to widows and orphans
To refrain from the wanton giving of offence
To live by honour and for glory
To despise pecuniary reward
To fight for the welfare of all
To obey those placed in authority
To guard the honour of fellow knights
To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
To keep faith
At all times to speak the truth
To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
To respect the honour of women
Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
Never to turn the back upon a foe
Of the seventeen entries in the Knights Codes of Chivalry, according to the Song of Roland, at least 12 relate to acts of chivalry as opposed to combat.
UGA 1999
August 16th, 2011
10:21 am
Ha
Leggs
August 16th, 2011
10:21 am
KimZ'sPackage
August 16th, 2011
10:22 am
One more CODE.
Knights Code of Chivalry described by the Duke of Burgandy
The chivalric virtues of the Knights Code of Chivalry were described in the 14th Century by the Duke of Burgandy. The words he chose to use to describe the virtues that should be exhibited in the Knights Code of Chivalry were as follows:
Faith
Charity
Justice
Sagacity
Prudence
Temperance
Resolution
Truth
Liberality
Diligence
Hope
Valour
The Knights Code of Chivalry as described by the Duke of Burgandy.
DreamsMaterialize
August 16th, 2011
10:26 am
please tell us what do you consider it when women comment on the perceived social short comings of men????
Simple Planting this seed will yield no fruits my man. Men can’t address ANY concern without being accused of whining. Merely talking about whining will get you accused of whining. So, you are a whiner for asking the question. This post officially makes me a whiner. Any guy who reads or skims this post will also become a whiner. lol On the flip side, women are pardoned from all accusations of whining by default.
Reio
August 16th, 2011
10:27 am
KimZ’sPackage – What the hell are ypu blogging about?
Michael in Decatur
August 16th, 2011
10:28 am
I’ll hold the door for any female or child. Not all acknowledge it, but that’s ok. And, quite frankly, I don’t care whether you appreciate it or not. You got where you were going safely. That is important to me.
Leggs
August 16th, 2011
10:32 am
I must admit I do not understand when someone says “I’ll hold the door for any female or child. Not all acknowledge it,….” That is ridikulous. That person simply lacks manners. I don’t get why it’s so hard for someone to say “thank you!”
UGA 1999
August 16th, 2011
10:33 am
Leggs….AMEN!
KimZ'sPackage
August 16th, 2011
10:37 am
Reio
Someone said Chivalry is being POLITE. It is not. Being Polite is well, being polite. Chivalry is something very different. It includes politeness but as a small part of the definition.
The story states the girl thinks Chivalry is dean or sorely lacking. I am asking if she or any of you actually know what the code of Chivalry is.
Much like the healthcare bill; how can you discuss it if you don’t know what is in it.
My 2 cents
August 16th, 2011
10:38 am
I think it’s how one is raised. If parents don’t teach their male child how to treat a female ( lady or not), the male child will never know. He will learn from his peers. I also agree it’s independent of geographic location – South, North, East, West, etc… How to treat a female, regardless of her social status (lady, whore, slut, etc..) is like table manners – learned behaviours. I think if a woman wants to be treated like a lady and with chivalry, she should let it be known. Like Dave Chappelle said “if I dress up like a cop, I can’t expect someone not to ask for help in times of trouble. If a woman is wearing a ho outfit, she can’t expect to be treated like a lady”.
SexyCool
August 16th, 2011
10:38 am
Chivalrous women?!? Seriously?!?
Wow…That’s like saying motherly men.
Southern Gentleman @ 45
August 16th, 2011
10:43 am
Kim: very good point and that is what I was saying earlier about chivalry being far more than being polite to others.
Simple Man...
August 16th, 2011
10:46 am
KImZ, Does that also mean I have to ride a horse and eat Big azz Turkey legs at Discover Mills 5 nights a week?????
KimZ'sPackage
August 16th, 2011
10:46 am
The Southern Gentleman’s Code is also mentioned in this blog. Here is its definition. Closer to what I believe the young Lady in the story is looking for.
Being a Southern gentleman is a state of being. It is a lifestyle based on the ancient code of chivalry. It is a mindset of putting others first and having a truly humble spirit. It is a respect for others – and for oneself. It is respecting the dignity of all men, no matter what their station in life may be. It is a deep and abiding reverence and respect for women, coupled with the manners and etiquette that outwardly demonstrate that reverence. It is the understanding that we are not self-made men, but we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. It is a reverence for the God who created us, and who is the source of all of our many blessings.
Southern gentlemen can be found at every level of society from the janitor who cleans the toilets with the same pride in his workmanship as the finest craftsman, to the men occupying the highest positions of leadership in the land. It is not about money or occupation or social standing. It is about being a Southern gentleman.
Outwardly, the Southern gentleman can be identified as the man who always dresses well – not to impress, but out of respect for the dignity of those around him. He can be identified as the man who is at ease in a hut or in a palace – and always makes those around him feel at ease when they are near him. He has taken the time to learn the rules of social etiquette and practices them at all times, yet never points out the errors made by others. He understands the needs of women and accommodates those needs. The Bible speaks of women as “the weaker vessel”; the Southern gentleman discretely protects women and is prepared to actively defend them if no other options are available. He is quiet and soft-spoken. The Southern gentleman is seldom heard in a crowd unless he is speaking to you since his voice is kept soft and low so as to not call attention to himself; even when angry, his voice, like his demeanor, is kept under control. He never calls attention to his own success but points to the success of others. His leadership style is one of firmness and confidence such that others naturally look to him when leadership is needed.
KimZ'sPackage
August 16th, 2011
10:48 am
Simple Minded man…… you can’t ride the horse when you are the Horse’s Ass now can you?
The man formerly know as Dan - still...Superior
August 16th, 2011
10:48 am
@KZP
That was me.
And, if you choose to hold true to social norms as they existed during the time of the ontological creation of the word then: Blacks are still slaves, women are still inferior to men, the black plague is still running rampant through the streets, and Azteck’s still populate the Earth (thrivingly so).
However, if you should choose to experience the evolution of a word as it relates to current cultural norms. Chivalry is being polite, regardless of intent, social standing, or social setting.
Either path you choose knave: duel!
SexyCool
August 16th, 2011
10:51 am
Laughing MY *ass* off…..great comeback!
The man formerly know as Dan - still...Superior
August 16th, 2011
10:53 am
@KZP
Um, whether using the phrase “Southern Gentleman” or adapting ‘chilvary’ to a current societal context; that 10:46 bespeaks the faulty nature of your argument.
Semantic differences aside, being a gentleman or chilvarous is akin to “placing the happiness of others ahead of your own” in a given context (or century).
Simple Man...
August 16th, 2011
10:54 am
Now, now, now, Kim…which of us is not being polite now???? I did not insult you, did not resort to calling you names…. How did my interjecting a bit of humor into conversation that has obviously gone into left field warrent me being called an Ass??? Although I am tempted to respond in kind, Out of respect for the other ladies present, I will refrain…. That, my dear, is being respectful..maybe you should see If there is someone in King Arthur’s court that can school you on that……
SlimNu
August 16th, 2011
10:57 am
You don’t want to be treated like a ho, well stop wearing the ho uniform
I love when I see a guy with his son and he makes him hold the door for any ladies coming in. It makes me smile because in some cases the door is waaaay bigger than the kid. That father is laying a foundation…
abc
August 16th, 2011
11:01 am
There are more men that will be polite than not, in my opinion, especially if you look at males in general, and not specific to any particular ethnicity. It’s a fact that for a few ethnicities, male role models are more lacking than for some others, so lack of manners may or may not seem more or less prevalent to you, depending on who you are typically attracted to.
I would say, though, that simple good manners does not make one chivalrous, or a gentleman. There’s more to it than that.
If a lady would like to have doors opened for her, and her date doesn’t do it, then she should stand by the door and patiently wait, with a nice smile and a ‘thank you’ when he finally opens the door. Same with holding her chair; same with standing when the lady gets up from the table; etc. etc. etc. Guys who don’t do these things typically don’t know about these things, or don’t realize their importance. All you have to do is (pleasantly) demonstrate to them the importance of these things to you.
And, if you’re a father, teach your sons the importance of these things. If you don’t teach a boy that they must gain and demonstrate a respect for women, regardless of anyone’s opinion on whether that woman deserves any respect, then nobody else will teach them that, either. The most effective way to teach them is by example.
Celisea
August 16th, 2011
11:02 am
Morning,
I just need to say I’m reading…lol Way too funny…lol
Um, chivalry IMO goes hand in hand with what a man is and what he represents and what he stands for. If you deem chivalry worthy of certain women or because you have an agenda then you aren’t chilvarous. Just who and what you are. Oh, and it ain’t limited to opening doors and holding doors.
IMO it’s a quality skin, bone, marrow deep.
Leggs
August 16th, 2011
11:03 am
I like that too SlimNu!
SexyCool
August 16th, 2011
11:03 am
I see chivalry as a masculine trait, period. To expect a woman to behave in a chivalrous manner seems unnatural.
Quite frankly, if there was a return to good manners and solid values, it would improve society as a whole.
However, generational shifts in beliefs and behavior weigh heavily upon the actions and values of the evolving society – whether it be to the good or the bad. And as we all know, in this day and age, as there has always been, there is both.
Celisea
August 16th, 2011
11:04 am
And frankly I’ve had the door held for me because it was an opportunity to breathe on me and flash the fangs and many many many more times because I believe the person was being polite. Too, I’ve had the door held for me by men and women alike. It’s just natural. Even when you find yourself coming in the door, it’s natural to either look back and see if someone is coming or from feeling someone behind you, you hold the door.
KimZ'sPackage
August 16th, 2011
11:06 am
Simple Man…. And that was me interjecting some of my humor too. It is all in Blogging fun.
Dan the Man….I don’t see the faulty nature. I simply gave the Definition and points of the CODES. If you wish to meet a Southern gentlemen I will gladly introduce you to my father. He is now 72 and anybody you ask will tell you from reading the code that describes my father perfectly.
Blackfoote: The Real Blackfoote
August 16th, 2011
11:08 am
Kim:
I can relate, in todays modern world that is snickered at or mistaken for weakness. It is not just southern men with this characteristic it’s all men who can carry it in his heart.
SexyCool
August 16th, 2011
11:09 am
And to the theory of emasculated men:
All the men I know who stand strong in their manhood, its confidence and abilities, are incapable of being emasculated.
That being said, should you find yourself BMC’ing about having been emasculated, it seems to me that you were lacking from within all along.
DreamsMaterialize
August 16th, 2011
11:09 am
how can you discuss it if you don’t know what is in it.
KZP While an understanding of the history of chivalry is useful, it can hardly be applied today as it was then. “Respect for the honour of women”, for example, would mean something different today than it would have then. The “honour” of a woman then included her virginity, and losing it prior to marriage would have deemed her less than worthy of honour by the chivalrous men of the times. Chivalry has evolved with the times, and as such, is much more ambiguous. Chivalry isn’t a special case though since the same can be said of any socio-cultural norm from the past.
Also, your description of a “Southern Gentleman” doesn’t address any quality that isn’t found anywhere else. A “Southern Gentleman” is simply a Gentleman.
Leggs
August 16th, 2011
11:12 am
So, the man holds the door open for the woman or pulls out her chair is deemed a form of chivarly. What is it called when the hubby comes home from work, the wife takes off his coat and hangs it up for him?
I’ll wait (no trick question or is it)….
a fan
August 16th, 2011
11:13 am
So if I like my wife to bend me over her knee and spank me can I still be Chivalrous? i public nobody sees that side of me. Have I been Emasculated?
abc
August 16th, 2011
11:13 am
There’s nothing about being a gentleman that is specific to being Southern. In historical terms, ‘Southern Gentleman’ refers to a mannered person who lives a life of leisure, educated in literature and oration.
SexyCool
August 16th, 2011
11:13 am
Leggs – serving which, in a balanced relationship, makes sense to me.
kimmie
August 16th, 2011
11:14 am
Morning All!
I don’t understand how what a female wears has anything to do with how she’s treated. Politeness and respect should be given to all. And if a guy is out with her, well if she’s good enough for you to take out, spend time & money on, share your body with, she’s good enough for you to open her door.????? I just don’t get it.
I agree with those that say good manners, kindness, politeness, respect for your fellow human, should be shown to everyone, not just those you want to impress. How is opening a lady’s door or seeing that she made it home okay “putting a lot of stock” in her?
And yes, the lady in question, Wise’s friend, should speak up about what she wants to the guy. Some just haven’t been taught, don’t know better, or just don’t want to do different. She then will have to decide if it’s a dealbreaker or not. Is he kind to her in other ways but just a little rough around the edges? Or is he just a rude person because he’s not really into her? Or is he the same way with all and can she deal with it?
And what’s with this, “well she might not be acting like a lady” mindset? What does that have to do with him showing manners, his actions?
M dot – You asked what should be expected in return for a guy showing good manners? The woman should show the same back – say thank you and please. What else should you be expecting in return for basic good manners?
Leggs
August 16th, 2011
11:16 am
Thanks, SC!
abc
August 16th, 2011
11:16 am
Manners are not chivalry. Chivalry or being a gentleman is a measure of character; manners are a measure of behavior.
Simple Man...
August 16th, 2011
11:20 am
“So if I like my wife to bend me over her knee and spank me can I still be Chivalrous? i public nobody sees that side of me. Have I been Emasculated?”
As long as she does not poke her fangas in ya while you are bent over, you should be good….