Will you need a prenup?
A couple got engaged over the holidays and the topic of a prenup came up recently. People seem to have varying opinions on what prenups “represent” and how it reflects on the relationship. I would not have problems signing one – after having a lawyer look it over, of course; and I don’t believe it means that you are expecting the marriage not to last.
A lot of single women are earning more money than the men they marry so I think prenups have become less taboo to women. If you have a problem bringing up the topic of prenups, you probably shouldn’t be getting married.
It’s probably not a romantic or “fairy tale” part of being engaged but at the very least, the question can be addressed to find out where your partner stands. How do you know if you need a prenup? Would you have a problem signing one? How do you broach the subject?
At what point do you talk about your income with someone you are dating? Or should you bring it up at all prior to getting engaged?
By Wise Diva, Misadventures in Atlanta Blog
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166 comments Add your comment
DreamsMaterialize
January 19th, 2011
12:14 pm
if anything, it would discourage a spouse from being motivated by greed to leave, but that’s not the same as serving as motivation to stay.
If you are not motivated to leave, then what are you motivated to do?
abc
January 19th, 2011
12:14 pm
I would go so far as to say that if a person’s spouse leaves them without cause (or with cause, it doesn’t really matter), and the offending party takes material and financial resources that the other party would feel they don’t deserve, then it should serve as a lesson in making better choices in the future for the person that comes up short. I think it’s incredibly rare, to the point of almost non-existent, that one party to a divorce can honestly say that they played no part in the relationship’s failure.
Oftentimes, a prenup won’t hold up in court anyway. For starters, the prenup has to be created in the same state as the divorce proceedings for it to really hold any water. ANY legal contract can be contested successfully. At that point, it’s a matter of how strong a person’s will is to get what they want upon dissolution of marriage. A prenup will hardly stop a very determined person.
PrincessNik
January 19th, 2011
12:19 pm
DreamsM that was funny!!!!
DreamsMaterialize
January 19th, 2011
12:19 pm
How is that not the same thing, again?
swiss they are logical equivalents.
A prenup will hardly stop a very determined person.
abc It will if the opposing party is equally determined. So, in life, rewards are justly due those who can impose their will the most forcefully? I am aware that this often IS the case, but should it be?
BlueThrash
January 19th, 2011
12:19 pm
“I think it’s incredibly rare, to the point of almost non-existent, that one party to a divorce can honestly say that they played no part in the relationship’s failure.”
Agreed. We play a role in what happens. But I also believe it is rare that the fault is 50/50, although the assets may be split that way. Rarely is there a divorce where one spouse hasn’t “stepped out” on the other. That cheating is normally justified in the eyes of the cheater because his/her spouse wasn’t attentive enough, worked too much, cared more about the children than me, etc etc. So the spouse being cheated on takes some responsiblity, but the one who cheated rather than trying to talk to the other person about his/her feelings, see a counselor, etc. should, IMHO, take the brunt of the responsbility….for being a weenie if nothing else.
abc
January 19th, 2011
12:21 pm
Such as, a person may grow bored with their spouse, or a bunch of small irritations may snowball into significant grievance; they have an affair, and come to the necessity of making a decision to stay, or to go.
First off, it’s likely that both parties to the marriage have contributed to the state of the relationship at that point, to a greater or lesser extent.
If there’s a prenup that protects the assets of the one having an affair and wanting to leave, they’re de-motivated to stay. If there’s a prenup that prevents them from financial benefit, then they’re going to be able to pull as much freight as they can themselves anyway, and so wouldn’t be motivated to stay. If they stay because they’re reliant upon the other person for their support and survival, then they really shouldn’t have had the affair, and should have been more motivated to making the marriage work.
That makes sense to me, anyway. Prenups are bogus, and a sure sign that the people involved aren’t going into the marriage with their whole heart.
Purple Rain
January 19th, 2011
12:23 pm
If it ends it will culminate in gasoline and matches…so no prenup needed
abc
January 19th, 2011
12:23 pm
DM, at that point, it becomes a war, doesn’t it? How do we win wars? Shock and awe, of course. It’s the way of the world.
BlueThrash
January 19th, 2011
12:28 pm
“Prenups are bogus, and a sure sign that the people involved aren’t going into the marriage with their whole heart.”
Your opinion. To paraphrase….I won’t get burned again. I may never fully recover from what my ex did – that doesn’t mean I cannot love and trust enough to get married, just that I am careful. I cannot love anyone with my whole heart because part of it died…my ex killed a small piece. But that is not the reason for the pre-nup…I love my BF with all of the heart I have left…the pre-nup is because I love myself and my son just a little bit more. It has taken me years of therapy post-divorce to get to that point and I am proud to say it today – I love me first, I respect me first, I protect me first! I love my BF, but never again will I love to my detriment. I will give all to the relationship, but I know that I can never control the actions of anyone else so I have to prepare for that possibility. I think the probability of divorce for me again is low, but the possibility is always there so I have to be smart.
i'm swiss™
January 19th, 2011
12:28 pm
abc — Thanks for the examples. That does make sense.
Purple Rain
January 19th, 2011
12:28 pm
My thoughts are if you think you need a pre nup, then maybe you should rethink getting married.
Purple Rain
January 19th, 2011
12:29 pm
I agree with abc
BlueThrash
January 19th, 2011
12:35 pm
And my thoughts are that if you don’t think about a pre-nup, if you do not consider what might happen if the worst happens, if you do not consider the financial well-being of a child from a prior relationship, then you deserve to lose half in a divorce. Love is great, all squishy and fairy tail-ish. But there is a darker side to everything and everyone and people should consider that and prepare for it. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. We just had a once-every-30-or-so-years storm in Atlanta that shut us down for a week…I was prepared because I always have a month’s worth of food on hand in my pantry “just in case.” My pre-nup too is “just in case.”
i'm swiss™
January 19th, 2011
12:37 pm
If I were loaded & and marrying someone with comparatively little, I could certainly understand the desire for a pre-nup. There are some pretty good actors/actresses out there who can seem trustworthy & sincere all the while counting your money.
All of which makes it so much less complicated to marry within one’s own strata — financial, intellectual, and otherwise…
Purple Rain
January 19th, 2011
12:38 pm
Just in Case, you better never leave the house or ride in a car or fly in a plane or go in a bank or eat food…etc
If you thin you need a pre nup, just don’t get married
Purple Rain
January 19th, 2011
12:39 pm
I always have a months worth of food in my pantry…because I dont like going to make grocery shopping every week. So we go once a month. LOL
czBrat
January 19th, 2011
12:39 pm
hey good people! popping in during a verly long week of very boring training classes.
on topic: we have discussed prenups and finances. there will be no prenup & financial obligations and wealth building will be handled proportionate to income/ability.
having said that …. my s/o would agree with this right here —> If it ends it will culminate in gasoline and matches…so no prenup needed
AmazonRed™
January 19th, 2011
12:40 pm
A prenup protects all of your assets up until the day of your marrige. Everything you and your spouse make together from that day forth isn’t included
I used to think the same, but that’s not really the case. It includes any rules you set prior to the nuptuals. So that’s why superstar athletes can say, “she gets nothing (or a set amount) if we get divorced.”
However, many states do have community property laws, so that’s why many pre-nups get disputed and overturned.
Purple Rain
January 19th, 2011
12:41 pm
CanalZone
Poppa Grande
January 19th, 2011
12:46 pm
It depends on what is in the pre nupt. Ultimately, a prenup is a contract. So, it is dictated by its terms.
I could see a prenup that provides for children that resulted from prior relationship. Just like I suggest the formation of a trust for children of prior relationships. IMO children should not be hurt because step mom or step dad gets upset that one spouse stepped out on the marriage, and the non-cheating spouse wants revenge. Pre-nups and trusts could protect the innocent children.
In GA, as long as you keep pre marital property separate, there is no need for a pre-nup. The minute that you co-mingle premarital property with marital property it is subject for equitable division. (GA is NOT a 50/50 state).
czBrat
January 19th, 2011
12:51 pm
hola, reign!
also, i strongly suspect there would be no need for an infidelity “out” clause cuz that man would most likely snap my neck and bury me under the garage. ijs.
DreamsMaterialize
January 19th, 2011
12:51 pm
PoppaG What’s good man? I had a feeling you would pop in at some point and chime in on this topic.
Poppa Grande
January 19th, 2011
12:52 pm
Prenups are NOT something that says you are going into marriage to fail.
People who will cheat will cheat whether they sign a contract or not. Sometimes it really is protection, especially in economic times like we are currently experiencing.
It just really depends on the situation.
DW
January 19th, 2011
12:53 pm
People! Everyone here is focusing on ASSETS. What about a DEBT? If you spend $100,000 on credit is your spouse liable for this during divorce?? would a prenup protect you from this???
AmazonRed™
January 19th, 2011
12:56 pm
I’m surprised abc is against prenups, especially after experiencing divorce. I don’t disagree with what he says tho, I just thought he’d feel the opposite.
I was opposed to the idea of prenups in my 20s. But in my 30s, I think of it more like insurance. You never hope to use it, but it makes things a lot easier if you have it!
Poppa Grande
January 19th, 2011
12:56 pm
DreamsM
I cannot complain at all. How are things with you?
Actually, I pop in most days. I lurk more now than I post.
Leggs
January 19th, 2011
12:57 pm
@DW ~ any debt incurred during the marriage I believe is the responsibility of both parties.
Poppa Grande
January 19th, 2011
12:58 pm
ARed
I’m surprised abc is against prenups, especially after experiencing divorce.
I am surprised, too.
Mostly because I know his stance on the truthfulness of human females.
abc
January 19th, 2011
12:59 pm
No, nothing will protect you from the debt accrued by a spouse, unless you have only individual accounts, and your bank isn’t affiliated with hers.
czBrat
January 19th, 2011
12:59 pm
LMAO @ PG 12:58
hilarious!!
ciao
Poppa Grande
January 19th, 2011
1:01 pm
DW…
Prenupt probably would NOT protect you from that hypo that you presented.
Until you get that final decree you are still married and the debt is marital.
Purple Rain
January 19th, 2011
1:01 pm
CanalZone and that is a pre-nup. LOL
DW
January 19th, 2011
1:05 pm
@Poppa So your saying i could run up a $1,000,000 in debt. Then divorce the spouse. And leave her on the hook for a cool half mil??? Seriously?
Purple Rain
January 19th, 2011
1:09 pm
DW, once again that is something you should have figured out before marriage
Poppa Grande
January 19th, 2011
1:10 pm
DW
in regards to the marriage, yes.
However, there are still grounds for suit. In amount that large, could venture into criminal charges though. I could argue that is theft if you don’t intend to repay.
It would affect both peoples credit ratings.
Leggs
January 19th, 2011
1:13 pm
And, intentionally running up debt to spite your spouse is criminal and you may be paying off the entire debt on your own.
DW
January 19th, 2011
1:16 pm
Say in theory i get a cash advance for a million dollars and bury it in a box somewhere. Divorce. Then we both owe $500k. I take my million, pay off my portion of the $500k and then i get to keep $500k scott free!! Theres no way this would work right?
Leggs
January 19th, 2011
1:21 pm
First and foremost, DW, which funds alloted you the cash advance?
AmazonRed™
January 19th, 2011
1:22 pm
Your cash advance leaves a paper trail smarty!
Poppa Grande
January 19th, 2011
1:26 pm
DW…
No it would not work. As you have presented, it is a premeditated crime. Evidence of burying half of the money shows forethought. My guess that the charge would be theft by receiving.
You would be asked to “go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.”
i'm swiss™
January 19th, 2011
1:27 pm
DW — If you want an easier & sure fire way to scam your way into riches, just run for congress.
DW
January 19th, 2011
1:27 pm
I said IN THEORY. In theory i could also go to DeBeers and buy a diamond on credit and bury it. Whatever. The point is i Still end up with a $1,000,000 in something and only have to pay $500k back .
@Amazon im not trying to cover up a paper trail. everyone in the world can know this but what can be done to stop it is my point..
Poppa Grande
January 19th, 2011
1:28 pm
Not by theft by receiving…well I am rusty on my GA criminal code in that area. I’m sure that it is theft though.
Poppa Grande
January 19th, 2011
1:30 pm
They can’t stop you but they the creditors can get a judgment against you (and the other debtor). though. In GA they are called Fi. Fa. Which would allow them to take legal means to collect on said debt such a wage garnishment.
DW
January 19th, 2011
1:30 pm
@POPPA Thanks for answering the question!
DW
January 19th, 2011
1:33 pm
Poppa. I intend to pay off my $500k portion of the debt and leave the spouse with the other $500k. This is all theory of course
Purple Rain
January 19th, 2011
1:34 pm
If you open up account jointly it’s a joint responsibility if it is opened individually it is an individual responsibilty….isn’t this correct by standard of the law or does that vary by state?
Purple Rain
January 19th, 2011
1:37 pm
Ok say I have 4 bishes, I marry 2 of them unbeknowst are they to each other. Now one of the other bishes I propose to and the last bish is just a friend with benefits. Say I am broke and all four of them bishes are rich…how much would I be on the hook for after I run up their credit card bills and take their money to find more bishes? LOL
P.S. I work at the Foot Locker so I make about $8/hr
BlueThrash
January 19th, 2011
1:41 pm
“Say in theory i get a cash advance for a million dollars and bury it in a box somewhere. Divorce. Then we both owe $500k. I take my million, pay off my portion of the $500k and then i get to keep $500k scott free!! Theres no way this would work right?”
In terms of the lender being able to come after the other spouse, not unless your spouse signed for the case advance too. If only your name is on it, then the bank can come after only you…and your assets, which may include marital property, which is how your spouse gets hurt. I would never have a joint credit card or co-sign for anyone’s loan. That is also another good reason to have a pre-nup – it makes clear that your assets are not marital assets and thus cannot be attached to satisfy the debts of your spouse (assuming you do not enter into them jointly or otherwise represent to the lender that your assets will stand for the debt). That being said, in a divorce you may be ordered to assume a portion of the debt incurred during the marriage even though your spouse incurred it and not you, but that is part of the divorce and generally does not create a third-party beneficiary position for the lender – in other words, if you don’t pay your spouse can sue you for contempt under the divorce decree, but the bank can only sue your spouse for non-payment not you.
PrincessNik
January 19th, 2011
1:41 pm
Since this topic leans somewhat toward finances, What does everyone think about joint accounts versus seperate accounts? (married of course). Some couples have only joint accounts, some couples have only seperate accounts, and other couples have a combination of the two.