Al Groh goes, but the question about Tech’s talent remains
A sight seldom seen in recent months: Georgia Tech actually tackles somebody. (AJC photo by Johnny Crawford)
Paul Johnson had two options: Keep losing the same game the same way or try something different. Not much of a choice if your job depends on winning, is it?
Said Johnson, speaking Monday afternoon: “We’ve been ahead in some games and we haven’t seemed to win any of them.”
Also this: “The way we’ve played is not acceptable. That’s not why I came here.”
It is, however, why Al Groh is gone. To fault the defensive coordinator for everything that has gone wrong at Georgia Tech would be a gross overstatement. (Pretty sure Groh hadn’t been tutoring the Jackets in the art of turning a kickoff into a safety.) But he was given a task to perform, and he failed. A team that’s 90th in the land in total defense, 89th in scoring defense and 103rd in third-down defense — and, as Johnson noted of the latter category, “we tried to make that a point of emphasis” — cannot be said to have given ground grudgingly.
And the really bad thing about Groh’s really bad D was it got worse as it went. Of the 181 points Tech has yielded, 80 have come in the fourth quarter and beyond. If we throw out the Presbyterian game, Tech’s opponents have scored 77 points in 75 fourth-quarter minutes (plus two overtime possessions). That’s point-a-minute stuff. That’s bad beyond belief.
“The Virginia Tech game,” said Johnson, referring to the Jackets’ first loss of this 2-4 season, “was eerily similar to the [Sun Bowl, in which Tech also lost in overtime], and the Miami game [yet another OT loss] was eerily similar to Virginia Tech … There were a lot of recurrent things.”
Firing Groh in midseason can’t do any harm and might do some good. “To me, [the decision] was inevitable,” Johnson said. “I didn’t want to give up the rest of the season.”
But — and this is a humongous “but” — Al Groh wasn’t the guy missing tackles on third down. The scariest Tech loss wasn’t any of the three in which the Jackets wasted a late lead but the Middle Tennessee game, in which Tech last led 7-0. Middle Tennessee plays in the Sun Belt, which isn’t a BCS league. Georgia Tech plays in the ACC, which is, and back in 2009 it claimed the conference title (since vacated). On manpower alone, Tech should have been able to line up in the same defense on every snap and beat the Blue Raiders. Instead it lost 49-28. Instead it saw Middle Tennessee score seven touchdowns, the first five on drives of 68 or more yards.
That suggested — heck, it did more than suggest — that Tech’s failure had less to do with Groh’s X’s and O’s than the X’s themselves. Third downs are those moments when good players make plays; Tech’s players, alas, get blocked and blow coverages and miss tackles. “I don’t think you’ve got to trick people,” Johnson said, and then, sensing where this might be heading: “I’m not sold that we don’t have great players.”
On that, he’s surely in the minority. Johnson said he plans to be more involved with the defense, and toward that end he reassigned duties among the holdover coaches. (Charles Kelly, who last coordinated a defense in 2005 at Nicholls State, will be the interim coordinator.) Johnson knows what needs to be improved — “i.e., tackling and i.e., pursuit,” he said — but being able to run fast and hit hard are functions of ability. All the scheming known to man won’t turn a barely adequate collegiate linebacker into Lawrence Taylor.
See, Al Groh once coached Lawrence Taylor. Say what you will, but Groh does know football. Even Johnson conceded the point before saying: “The communication part wasn’t transcending to the field; we were having a hard time getting lined up.”
There can be no real defense, if you will, of Groh’s Tech tenure, no real argument with Johnson’s decision to dump him now. “To do what you’re doing,” Johnson said, “you have to know what you’re doing.”
Can’t dispute that. But to do what needs to done, you have to be physically able to do it. Al Groh tried for 2 1/2 years and couldn’t make these Jackets play good defense. Still unclear is whether anyone can.
By Mark Bradley
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197 comments Add your comment
Kevin
October 9th, 2012
10:41 am
It’s not the Xs and the Os; it’s the Jimmys and the Joes.
Wes Mantooth
October 9th, 2012
10:42 am
Talent is part of it, but so is the scheme. To run the 3-4 effectively, a team needs monster def linemen that will draw double teams. It all starts there and Tech hasn’t been able to get those guys consitently. Probably won’t change given that Tech isn’t in the juco market and has hard time competing with the factory schools for the 4 star guys out of HS. The next DC should look at going back to the 4-3 or a varied scheme that mixes blitz packages, zone coverage, etc… I know PJ wants to simplify things, but a good OC will carve you up if you are predictable. Ever since Bobby Ross left, D has been a challenge.
GTBob
October 9th, 2012
10:42 am
In order for Tech to be able to compete on this level of college football, they need to be aloowed to open itself up to more majors.
Do you really want GT as an institution to start creating majors just to improve football recruiting?
robodawg
October 9th, 2012
10:46 am
4th quarter defensive lapses are usually a result of lack of depth. Tired players don’t play well.
I’m surprised the defense didn’t hold on better these last few games. The D was impressive in the Va Tech game despite the loss. At that point I really thought Groh had turned things around.
New Idea
October 9th, 2012
11:03 am
GTbob,
GT needs more majors for Georgia students. We only have 50% Georgia Students at GT and we exist for the State of Georgia. It is a waste of Taxpayer dollars to keep funding a school like GT that is educating half of its students that are not even Georgians. 20% of those are foreigners. Would more majors help football, I think yes but this is a taxpayer issue too. Gt exists for Georgia, it needs to educate Georgians. Any new majors would have to be real professional majors that would help Georgia.
mikeb
October 9th, 2012
11:06 am
About time this was done. For whatever reason, this was never a good fit and the job wasn’t getting done. (Thank you Mr. Obvious). Perhaps defense wouldn’t have to be on the field as long if offense could sustain their drives. IMHO Tevin is not a good field general. He makes terrible decisions with the ball, way too often calling his own number, wasting a play for little or no gain. His passing is atrocious (I’m being kind) and rarely a threat to opposing defenses. Now that we’ve changed defensive co-ordinators, time to change the QB as well.
GTBob
October 9th, 2012
11:12 am
GT needs more majors for Georgia students. We only have 50% Georgia Students at GT and we exist for the State of Georgia.
The number of Georgia students that attend GT is a whole other argument. If Georgia high schools were better then GT would admit more Georgia students. Its not like we can’t find anyone in Georgia who wants to go here. We aren’t going to just start admitting students who are not qualified to attend GT just because they live in Georgia. That wasn’t really my point anyways. If the faculty and administration at GT want to create a new college or set of majors that fit in well with the GT mission and are relevant in todays world then I am all for it. If they start creating majors that are intended to hide athletes then I will probably miss my first roll call in a long time.
wreckbuzz
October 9th, 2012
11:22 am
Al Groh had some success at Virginia. I think you’d be hard pressed to say Virginia was running a better class of athlete on the field than GT. I think college football offenses have left Groh’s methods behind. And I don’t think it’s the schemes or theories on defending that are out dated per se, it’s the pace that offenses operate at that has exposed Groh’s ability to adjust and communicate those schemes onto the field in time to be effective.
alex
October 9th, 2012
11:31 am
@kevin,Jimmy(?)/ Joe(?) in D1 Football……I went to the MTSU game, there is MOST definitely a lack of D1 talent, without a doubt.
Golden Tornado
October 9th, 2012
11:33 am
MR. BRADLEY, you are right!
“You can draw all the schemes you want, but great athletes – they’ll beat you every time.” (Robert Lee Dodd)
“Football is a very simple game. All you have to do is play defense, and you win.” (Lou Holtz)
“Because of its curriculum and lack of choice of majors, Tech plays Georgia with one hand tied behind its back.” (My old daddy, back in the Bill Alexander era)
My aunt is my uncle
October 9th, 2012
12:18 pm
Give it up tekies your points and arguments are all hollow. Tek belongs in a conference like the Sun Belt. They will never be an upper echelon ACC program now the the real teams in the ACC are tearing it up on the recruiting front.
Do you guys really think you can keep up with the rising teams in the ACC?
Georgia Tek offense 227 points DUKE offense 227 points.
Georgia Tek offense 227 points Clemson offense 248 points.
Georgia Tek offense 227 points FSU offense 271 points.
Georgia Tek offense 227 N.C. offense 264 points.
Dacusville Bill
October 9th, 2012
12:30 pm
Sylvester Caroon (sp) ex Miss State HC would be a great hire to peplace Groh AND Pitiful Paul–
MC
October 9th, 2012
12:51 pm
Not a bad idea Dacusville Bill. But I still say Mike Leach. Instant boost to recruiting some skill players to liven the place up until the rest of PJ’s mess can be cleaned up. But Croom as DC. You’re onto something there.
mic-man
October 9th, 2012
1:36 pm
Tech needs to hire an OC. CPJ needs to be accountable for all aspects of the game. His focus on offense hinders his ability to manage the other aspects of the game appropriately.
Mark
October 9th, 2012
1:48 pm
I disagree Mark – the talent level is not the problem, the 3-4 in college is. Not many sound defensive systems in college run a 3-4 and there is a reason – it takes a huge defensive line to do it and most colleges do not have that type player at the age of 18-22. Even UGA can’t line up day in and day out with their talent and run a 3-4 that can stop anybody. You have to get 4 down linemen and let the LBs be LBs, not pretend to be linemen standing up. Groh tried to make his system work, regardless of the players, rather than build the system around the players. Don Shula was the very best at building the system around the players and no one has come close since.
TechPat
October 9th, 2012
2:26 pm
Haha, love all the drinking of the scapegoat koolaid on here. Do you really think (midseason) a new DC will turn this talentless D from a 3-4 to a 4-3 and be instantly sucessful? Even with all AG’s faults, you should expect the D to decline more (if that’s possible). Bottom line: you do not give up the kind of yards and points we have this season with a talented D. Blame coaching all you want, but Rex Ryan couldn’t do anything with this team. You don’t see Miami firing their DC this week.
Ted M
October 9th, 2012
2:35 pm
Wow Sandusky’s statement. He really expects people to buy that load of crap.
james
October 9th, 2012
2:45 pm
This is CPJ’s last ditch attempt to save his job,we will be lucky to win another game this year.And we just don’t look lucky.
GB's Hamburgers
October 9th, 2012
2:47 pm
AL Groh got the Tech job because he is a known quantity as a football coach. He’s not chopped liver. Good coaches take what they have and make it better. What if Groh did make the talent better? What if Johnson’s ability to assess talent is so bad that he couldn’t succeed. The record shows that both offense and defense was better with Gailey’s recruits. That the Tech AD is not holding Johnson accountable doesn’t bode well for the future.
scott
October 9th, 2012
2:49 pm
how about Ted Roof??? back as defensive cord. he will at least bleed for the team and knows how to recruit in the area?
Captainlecture
October 9th, 2012
3:10 pm
It’s amazing that a writer for a major publication gets away with saying he has said the same thing for 3 years. It really goes to show that Mr. UGA just doesn’t take the same pride in hard work as CPJ.
Seriously?
October 9th, 2012
3:17 pm
@Captainlecture
What do you expect a Georgia sportswriter covering CFB to write?
It’s not as if anything ever changes in this state. Three years from now he can write the same article again and it will still be applicable — doesn’t matter if it’s written about Tech or UGA.
SuperB
October 9th, 2012
3:17 pm
The cold, hard fact is: Tech just doesn’t have the talent. That left when Chan’s boys left. Johnson ought to fire– himself!
SoCal_GT_Fan
October 9th, 2012
3:21 pm
Talentless defense. Perhaps they haven’t been coached up??? The D has double the number of 4-star players playing than the offense (based on rivals and/or scout recruiting database).
Lets see,
Offense: Will Jackson, Omorgie Uzzi, BJ Bostic (Didn’t add Vad because he doesn’t get any significant playing time)
Defense: Izaan Cross, Shawn Green, Anthony Williams, Louis Young, Rod Sweeting, and Jabari Hunt-Days.
So, the offense with three 4-star players and a bunch of 3-star athletes can be ranked in the top 25 in scoring and yards but the defense with twice the number of 4-stars and a bunch of 3-stars are trying to avoid being in the bottom 25 in defensive rankings?
The noted 4-star athletes are all guys that many of the top conference BCS schools went after. By that I don’t mean Miss States, Maryland, and what not. We are talking about Bama, UGA, Florida, Miami, FSUs of the world. Of course, they might not have been recruiting these guys as hard as Tech did but still, these 4-star athletes chose to come to Tech. Of course, we have come out on the short end of the stick on a number of high-profile recruits (i.e. Stephen Tuitt, Dalvin Tomlinson) and that might have led to this perception that we aren’t getting quality recruits. But if you look at the talent coming in under CCG versus that of CPJ, CPJ actually brings in quality classes (just compare the number of stars for recruits under each coach).
I for one, think the talent is there. Tenuta/Roof never had this many athletes on their defenses when they were the GT DC and I’m sure many of us can agree that those defenses were more than decent. Even IF you had the talent, the D-coordinator can still bungle it up for ya. Just ask any UGA fans about Willie Martinez.
Yo Yo
October 9th, 2012
3:29 pm
The talent level is no where near what it takes to compete on the Big Stage.
Spin it, try to sell it but it does not change the fact that TECH will not be able to be competitive under the current regime.
benb
October 9th, 2012
3:33 pm
It is hard to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear!
SoCal_GT_Fan
October 9th, 2012
3:35 pm
I personally think the talent is there. We have six former 4-star recruits on the defensive side who get significant playing time (only three of them on the offensive side). I doubt Jon Tenuta or Ted Roof got to work with that many 4-star players when they were DC at Tech. I also seriously doubt we get the “Notre Dame” treatment either where when a recruit is being actively recruited by GT, that recruit suddenly becomes a 4 or 5 star recruit. Personally, I think the opposite is true for GT but that’s just me.
Born2Buzz
October 9th, 2012
3:46 pm
Oh, let’s see what excuses we can come up with to counter the fact that Groh sucked.
We don’t have the talent, CPJ can’t recruit because of the offense he runs, the D has to practice against that stupid offense, we can’t get the talent because the Tech curriculum want allow it. What else, oh yea, no kid wants to come to a school that isn’t going to get him in the NFL.
B. S.
All just lame excuses. Coaching can make a big difference folks. Look at the Falcons. Their D was middle to bottom of the pact last year. With basically the same crew and a new D Coordinator they are #1 in turnover margin, # 11 in points allowed. Its all about the scheme and attitude.
Al Groh was horrible from Day 1 and has not gotten any better. To watch him stand out there confused while Miami ran the hurry up O, to see him continually take out guys who got stops on 1st and 2nd down, only to let the 3rd down “specialists” give up ANOTHER 3rd down conversion, to see him keep playing guys who are not as talented as others on the team because “the guy has a great motor” is embarrassing.
This team’s defense will be better immediately. And likewise, our offense will improve as well. You think the O likes to sit on the sideline for 10 minutes of play while the other team goes on an 11 play drive? No, it sucks, just like Groh, thankfully, DID.
Now let’s move on.
Born2Buzz
October 9th, 2012
3:50 pm
won’t not want and pack not pact
typing too fast for my own good.
TechPat
October 9th, 2012
3:52 pm
SoCal, maybe the talent on paper is there, but have you WATCHED the play on the field? The blown coverages, missed tackles, this does not all fall back on one person. If the team can cover, tackle, and shed blocks better the rest of the season I’ll stand corrected, but a bad gameplan or getting the plays in too slowly are not justification for letting MTSU rock us at home. They players are not very good.
Buzzy
October 9th, 2012
3:54 pm
I’ve always been suspicious of blaming too much of this on Groh, and I don’t think it’s age either. There are plenty of examples of older coaches getting the job done.
So I agree with Bradley, it’s put up or shut up time for the D. You’d think they’d be shamed enough by the scores they’ve been posting to get their concentration in order.
lxUn1c0
October 9th, 2012
4:07 pm
New Idea, you are flat out wrong about the purpose of GT. I was an out-of-state student. Georgia Tech exists to be Assn elite academic institution. It exists to keep the best students from the state in the state for college, and also to bring the best students from around the country, and the world, to Georgia. This provides an economic boon to the state, not only when those kiss are in college and spending their money, but also when they start their carers in the state.
Stop calling for a dumbing down of the curriculum. Not only will that not really help the football program, it runs counter to the goals of the institute.
lxUn1c0
October 9th, 2012
4:08 pm
*an. My phone’s autocorrect sucks.
lxUn1c0
October 9th, 2012
4:09 pm
Also, *kids.
Coach Hewitt...
October 9th, 2012
4:12 pm
Seriously?
October 9th, 2012
3:17 pm
What do you expect a Georgia sportswriter covering CFB to write?
Uh… Bradley went to Kentucky…..
The Old Coot
October 9th, 2012
4:16 pm
There is no question about Tech’s talent.
They don’t have any.
As for hiring Kirby Smart, if Tech did not hire Mac McWhorter as their head coach after what he did for them in 2000 because he was a Georgia player and alum, they sure arn’t going to offer the head coaching job to UGA player and alum Kirby Smart.
Turning to a Georgia player and alum to teach them how to win?
Think about how it would look.
Mulk
October 9th, 2012
4:44 pm
GTBob,
I think I wrote “decent” and “4th or 5th rated linebacker” as in I don’t expect Tech to recruit as well as UGAG. UGAG can’t get all the players in talent rich state so even the players they don’t want should be able to compete. Tech looks football slow, football weak and football unintelligent compared to the teams they have played. And, those teams are not world beaters.
Again, I think Coach Johnson gives Tech the best chance to win but I can observe the obvious. Not much talent on that side of the ball. Maybe, on either side of the ball. I freely admit that I am no expert but I can watch one person being faster than another, one being weaker or one consistently taking wrong angles. All of which leads to arm tackling and not getting off blocks.
techbzz
October 9th, 2012
7:48 pm
tech needs to change their scheme on D (4-3) and recruit bigger players who can tackle. their recruiting choices have been terrible—very poor talent on the field. Offense?? the wishbone gets a lot of yards but it can’t beat a physical D with speed.
Orange County Jacket
October 9th, 2012
8:42 pm
Maybe its my inability to understand the feelings behind your Article Mark.. Maybe you are a disgruntled GT fan that is bitter about the choices coach Paul Johnson has made.. Maybe you are a huge UGA fan jumping on the band wagon of every resident living in GA because you have no style or class like the bunch of morons that never went there in the first place, bitter from the fallen dreams that Mark Richt has conjured up for all these years for success(which I hope is not the case) .. What about the decision to Hire Al Groh in the first place.,? Wasnt this a proven mistake of the Athletic Director or Paul made in the beginning in 2009? Paul takes charge of his team, makes sure his players are going to class, and has recruited some hard hitting studs. In all respect you are attacking Paul Johnson for a mid season change and blaming the players who work harder than you obviously do on your Articles, even with a 2-4 record, for a Horrible Coach – Al Groh. He coached for a Horrible Jets team, a horrible Firing and 3-9 record at UVA. He has a horrible record as a coach and knew he got in over his head when he was hired at GT. The point is UGA, BAMA, UF and FSU spend almost $1 Billion dollars on Athletics half that on Academics, GT is in the $400,000 range of Athletic spending and over $1 billion in Endowments on Academics, obviously its the simple mathematic fact that we do not care how good our coaches are and care more about MGT managers like me living and working 2200 miles away from where I went to school making something of myself in a working environment because people trust me, becuase I went to GT. I think you are the Al Groh of the AJC and should quit while your ahead ;^)
are you kidding me?
October 9th, 2012
11:24 pm
some of you say…. paul johnson’s players. last time i looked cpj is not the sole recruiter on the team.
the o is scoring enough to win most games. cpj saw from the iowa debacle that we didnt have the horses up front to get the job done so what does he do? he bumps up the size of the linmen we are recruiting. it isnt going to happen over nite. dont we have a couple of book end 6-4 340 pounders plus a few others coming on board next year?
some of you act like al groh just did the scheme thing. i guarantee that he was the guy who watched film onf the d players we recruited. it was al groh who identified the players he wanted on d in the same manner that cpj id’d the players he wanted on o..
does anybody think that cpj tied al groh hands wrt the players he recruited? i dont. we have a lack of d talent. i just think that al groh had issues with his schemes and the way he managed a game.
one only look at the way boise state recruits and their results to realize that we can get it done with the players we have. we just need the right coaches in place. they sure did a pretty good number on the dawg last year with a bunch of 2 and 3 star recruits and they are doing well again this year.
in the last 3 years we have changed d coordinators…. have a new strength coach…. added a special teams coach. it is not like when chan gailey kept his worthless good ol boyz on staff. cpj is making changes. trying to find the right combination. cant fault him for that. if anybody was stubborn it was chan gailey not cpj.
as another poster also pointed out…. going by the average stars cpj has out recrutied chan gailey by about 10 spots per class and we have been getting better players of late. the only thing chan gailey had over cpj was ONE great class. other than that chan gailey was a bust.
Scott Johnson
October 10th, 2012
9:37 am
Will Al recite the “Man in the Mirror” again?
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Techie61
October 12th, 2012
10:59 am
Why don’t you people put your comments to where the sun don’t shine and leave CPJ alone, He’s a good coach and has the record to prove it. Don’t be so down on Tech, if you don’t like US don’t watch us. We are as Good as the best and better than the REST. THWGA
keith
October 14th, 2012
6:37 pm
When Paul Johnson came to Tech, he inherited Chan Gailey’s players,( & he had considerable success, winning the ACC & going to the Orange Bowl) some who are currently on NFL teams right now. Now with all those 4 star recruits gone, now Johnson is bringing in his players who are either 2 or 3 star recruits which will kill you in Divison 1 football. Undersized Offensive Linemen, small running backs who should are not ACC Caliber players. Paul Johnson has fired two D-Coordiantors since he ben there. The next time, its going to be Johnson & his high school offense getting the boot.
Heat Check: Falcons are unbeaten; Georgia State’s on a roll! | Mark Bradley
October 15th, 2012
12:10 pm
[...] were also off, and they furloughed defensive coordinator Al Groh for the rest of the season, which was probably best for everyone concerned. Even though Tech is 2-4, a slew of winnable games remain. It would take some doing for this team [...]