Al Groh goes, but the question about Tech’s talent remains
A sight seldom seen in recent months: Georgia Tech actually tackles somebody. (AJC photo by Johnny Crawford)
Paul Johnson had two options: Keep losing the same game the same way or try something different. Not much of a choice if your job depends on winning, is it?
Said Johnson, speaking Monday afternoon: “We’ve been ahead in some games and we haven’t seemed to win any of them.”
Also this: “The way we’ve played is not acceptable. That’s not why I came here.”
It is, however, why Al Groh is gone. To fault the defensive coordinator for everything that has gone wrong at Georgia Tech would be a gross overstatement. (Pretty sure Groh hadn’t been tutoring the Jackets in the art of turning a kickoff into a safety.) But he was given a task to perform, and he failed. A team that’s 90th in the land in total defense, 89th in scoring defense and 103rd in third-down defense — and, as Johnson noted of the latter category, “we tried to make that a point of emphasis” — cannot be said to have given ground grudgingly.
And the really bad thing about Groh’s really bad D was it got worse as it went. Of the 181 points Tech has yielded, 80 have come in the fourth quarter and beyond. If we throw out the Presbyterian game, Tech’s opponents have scored 77 points in 75 fourth-quarter minutes (plus two overtime possessions). That’s point-a-minute stuff. That’s bad beyond belief.
“The Virginia Tech game,” said Johnson, referring to the Jackets’ first loss of this 2-4 season, “was eerily similar to the [Sun Bowl, in which Tech also lost in overtime], and the Miami game [yet another OT loss] was eerily similar to Virginia Tech … There were a lot of recurrent things.”
Firing Groh in midseason can’t do any harm and might do some good. “To me, [the decision] was inevitable,” Johnson said. “I didn’t want to give up the rest of the season.”
But — and this is a humongous “but” — Al Groh wasn’t the guy missing tackles on third down. The scariest Tech loss wasn’t any of the three in which the Jackets wasted a late lead but the Middle Tennessee game, in which Tech last led 7-0. Middle Tennessee plays in the Sun Belt, which isn’t a BCS league. Georgia Tech plays in the ACC, which is, and back in 2009 it claimed the conference title (since vacated). On manpower alone, Tech should have been able to line up in the same defense on every snap and beat the Blue Raiders. Instead it lost 49-28. Instead it saw Middle Tennessee score seven touchdowns, the first five on drives of 68 or more yards.
That suggested — heck, it did more than suggest — that Tech’s failure had less to do with Groh’s X’s and O’s than the X’s themselves. Third downs are those moments when good players make plays; Tech’s players, alas, get blocked and blow coverages and miss tackles. “I don’t think you’ve got to trick people,” Johnson said, and then, sensing where this might be heading: “I’m not sold that we don’t have great players.”
On that, he’s surely in the minority. Johnson said he plans to be more involved with the defense, and toward that end he reassigned duties among the holdover coaches. (Charles Kelly, who last coordinated a defense in 2005 at Nicholls State, will be the interim coordinator.) Johnson knows what needs to be improved — “i.e., tackling and i.e., pursuit,” he said — but being able to run fast and hit hard are functions of ability. All the scheming known to man won’t turn a barely adequate collegiate linebacker into Lawrence Taylor.
See, Al Groh once coached Lawrence Taylor. Say what you will, but Groh does know football. Even Johnson conceded the point before saying: “The communication part wasn’t transcending to the field; we were having a hard time getting lined up.”
There can be no real defense, if you will, of Groh’s Tech tenure, no real argument with Johnson’s decision to dump him now. “To do what you’re doing,” Johnson said, “you have to know what you’re doing.”
Can’t dispute that. But to do what needs to done, you have to be physically able to do it. Al Groh tried for 2 1/2 years and couldn’t make these Jackets play good defense. Still unclear is whether anyone can.
By Mark Bradley
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197 comments Add your comment
WnE
October 9th, 2012
2:43 am
Flower should be Flowers
Mulk
October 9th, 2012
3:21 am
GTBOB,
Not into calling out players’ names but I don’t see anybody on defense that could play for UGAG, for example only, regardless what Rivals rated them or what other school was making them offers.
GTBoob
October 9th, 2012
4:44 am
@Billyho55 ever heard of Bill Snyder?
AtlNative62
October 9th, 2012
6:45 am
The kids were clearly not “getting it” and that is usually coaching related. I think it was Bobby Ross who once said something like “Tech kids are different. You can’t just tell them to run through a wall. You have to also tell them why they need to”. Clearly, Mr. Groh didn’t get them to understand the “why”.
MC
October 9th, 2012
6:45 am
Johnson’s the one that needs to do something different. Like some shotgun formation passing offense where the receivers are taught and run real multiple pass routes.
Coach
October 9th, 2012
6:59 am
I noticed CPJ did not say anything about his Offense not producing in the fourth quarter. It is still recruiting. We only have four or five players on each side that are d1.
New Idea
October 9th, 2012
7:03 am
Recruiting recruiting recruiting. CPJ is not stupid, he is not going to say “I recruited a bunch of poor players”.
tech fan
October 9th, 2012
7:07 am
Something had to change, suprised groh was fired mid season! Was going to happen anyway after the season. Lets see how the team responds on the field. If they beat uga and (if they go to/win a bowl game) the season will not be a total failure!
New Idea
October 9th, 2012
7:19 am
I agree that CPJ is a TERRIBLE recruiter. Some Recruits are going elsewhere because they find GT major choices so limited. The choice is Engineering or Management, NOT GOOD. A lot of recruits want to major in something they like, we don’t have the choices. Adding majors is key. I am talking about majors that will lead to professional jobs like education and coaching, RESPECTED PROFESSIONS.
trueblueeagle
October 9th, 2012
7:25 am
There needs to be a change at GT.
Al Groh Fired! - Page 11
October 9th, 2012
7:30 am
[...] see a whole lot of talent or spectacular play at the individual level except for maybe Jemea. Al Groh goes, but the question about Tech’s talent remains | Mark Bradley Reply With Quote + Reply to [...]
Wrecker
October 9th, 2012
7:34 am
Groh himself indicated that this was a talented team. I heard praise from him about the deptch in the defensive backfield and some praise for individual LBs and linemen. He would not be talking about the talent level positively if he wanted to keep his job. A coach on the hot seat (and CPJ told him things had to improve at the beginning of the year) would have laid off more of the blame on his players with coded language (i.e., “We have a lot to learn at LB” or “Our depth at Dline worries me”).
buzzwax
October 9th, 2012
7:41 am
GT had very good defenses when Jon Tenuta was DC despite HORRENDOUS offenses under Gailey. So, yes Mark, GT can have a decent defense. And DECENT is all GT would need to have GOOD Acc records everyyear. First half of 2008, GT’s defense was good while Josh/Dwyer/Thomas were learning the offense. Second half Gt outscored everybody while the defense went down the toilet. 2009 outscored everybody….Wommack fired. Louis Young, Jemea Thomas, Sweeting, Days, Drummond, Watts, Nealy, Attaochu are kids with IMO, good talent. I guess CPJ will get this half and next year to prove it……
ramblingbuzz
October 9th, 2012
7:46 am
I for one am not sold on the no talent excuse. If the players are not talented, how can they make stops or interception in certain situations and then look totally out of position after the next snap. For example, the defensive lineman that intercepted Boyd last Saturday. He certainly had the talent to catch the ball. No matter what is said about recruiting and talent, I believe this group of athletes can get it done with the right coach and scheme. They won’t be a USCe or Bama defense, but they won’t be 100 among FBS teams either.
Rufus
October 9th, 2012
7:56 am
Paul Johnson pays lip service to defense. It’s just something you have to do when you don’t have the football. He had to make this decision and take this action now in order to have a chance of saving his own skin when the season is over. Bobby Dodd’s…I know, he’s not around anymore….believed in strong defense which is why he put top talent on that side of the ball, and I cite when Bud Carson came to town to take the defense. Dodd gave him free reign in picking defensive players from the available talent pool with the exception of Kim King and Lenny Smith. The result in 1966 was one of the nation’s top defenses. Johnson doesn’t think that way. He’s stuck in the “the best defense is a good offense” mentality which doesn’t work at this level.
Jacket Detective
October 9th, 2012
8:02 am
Maybe the football that Groh knows is the pro game.
If you can’t pressure the QB with your regular rush, you have to blitz.
Yet Tech has seldom blitzed and bringing Attaochu to make a fourth rusher really does not qualify as a blitz as four are what the 4-3 defenses bring every down.
Instead as the 4th quarter arrived, the other team realizes Tech was not going to blitz and their QB could relax, even in BD stadium, and pick us apart.
During the 4th quarter of the Miami game, Boddy Dodd stadium became home away from home for the Miami QB.
Something is really wrong with the D coordinator’s thinking when other team’s sense Tech is going conservative and confidently move right down the field to score at will.
Our defense becomes worse because they are demoralized by their leader (D coor) getting out-coached in the 4th quarter.
I do not know about the pro game but the college game passed Groh by.
Since Virginia wound up subsizing the Groh hire, their fans have to be delighted he failed at Tech.
Myanmar-Shave
October 9th, 2012
8:13 am
The Rambling Wreck’s Out Of Gas
They Can’t Stop The Run Nor The Pass
We’ve Given Coach Johnson Five Years
And Now He’s Confirmed Our Worst Fears
He Failed In His Quest To Recruit
So He Gave His Assistant The Boot
Surely Someone Can Bring In The Players
To Silence All The Naysayers
It’s Not Like We’ll Slay The Elephant
But We’d Just Like To Be Relevant
Myanmar-Shave
The real question
October 9th, 2012
8:17 am
Who made the biggest mistake – GT for hiring Al Groh or Al Groh for accepting the offer?
Groh is / was a better defensive coach than the players CPJ gave him.
Kirby Smart to the Flats – put down that crack pipe it is making you think like a crazy person.
Birmingham Jacket
October 9th, 2012
8:20 am
1) PJ isn’t going anywhere, anytime soon. We’re not ND or Alabama. We can’t afford to pay Hewitt and Paul Johnson NOT to work at GT; much less muster the million$ it would take to lure another quality coach here.
2) If/when PJ is fired, we will have a 4-5 year transition period, back to the pro-set, that will be very painful. Bottom of conference, no bowls.
3) Bottom line. We need a good young DC that can motivate and recruit. And we need to keep CPJ.
4) His name is GIFF SMITH.
DiegoL
October 9th, 2012
8:23 am
2-3 star players — still should beat lowly middle tennessee state, who has 1-2 star players.
Brazilian tanned Guy
October 9th, 2012
8:25 am
Sure wish Richt would call Boo Boo into his office this morning. Better yet, maybe Howdy Doody would call in Richt
Groh no mo’. | Get The Picture
October 9th, 2012
8:29 am
[...] #2: Bradley’s all out on the recruiting. // Share [...]
WnE
October 9th, 2012
8:35 am
re:
Birmingham Jacket
October 9th, 2012
8:20 am
1) PJ isn’t going anywhere, anytime soon. We’re not ND or Alabama. We can’t afford to pay Hewitt and Paul Johnson NOT to work at GT; much less muster the million$ it would take to lure another quality coach here.
2) If/when PJ is fired, we will have a 4-5 year transition period, back to the pro-set, that will be very painful. Bottom of conference, no bowls.
3) Bottom line. We need a good young DC that can motivate and recruit. And we need to keep CPJ.
4) His name is GIFF SMITH.
_______________
I wish we could get Giff back to GT.
Guys like Giff Smith that go out and take lateral moves to get NFL experience on their resume are more likely to cash in at a SEC school or other school from a BCS conference that will pay much more than GT.
A new staff will be hired at Arky after this season, they have DEEPER pockets than does GT, and at Arky he can sell himself by saying that he Recruited well at GT under difficult Admission reqs. and that at a School like Arky with an extra 100 points on the SAT to work with he’ll close the gap talent -wise between them and LSU & Bama.
As soon as Giff gives that line in the interview he’s hired and paid a lot more than GT can pay, when it comes to our FB Program GT is very cheap.
The way I see it, unfortunately Giff is a pipe dream, with CPJ’s $2.6MM and low attendance hanging over the Athl. Dept. we’ll have to go discount shopping in the LOWER RANKS for a DC willing to work for such a low salary.
TechLB
October 9th, 2012
8:43 am
Mark, Spot on again Sir! Thank you for the scrutiny, if we want a consistent top 20 program – yes we can – we have to ask these questions at this stage after four years.
@ lxUn1c0, GTBob, and a few others – Thank you for some common sense, football fan comments on here!
I Gotyourcoach Ratcheere
October 9th, 2012
8:44 am
The new DC is already on staff and coaching linebackers. More and more, its Buddy McCollum.
Go Jackets
October 9th, 2012
8:50 am
Johnsons offense works between the 20’s. But asking TW to get 1 yard on 4th down is like playing Megamillions….the percentages arent good.If Fish-fry doesnt hire an RC, he will be gone after next year too.
Been There
October 9th, 2012
8:51 am
Groh played football from the past. A two gap 3-4, Groh’s style, cannot be successful given the rule changes to essentially legalize offensive holding. You cannot expect to hit/control/disengage/tackle. Further the two gap 3-4 requires larger players on the D-line (300 #) and at LB (250#) The modern no-huddle spread seen almost every game speeds the play, adds 20 plays of offense for an opponent and for long stretches limit or eliminate defensive substitution. All bad for a larger player.
tooltime234
October 9th, 2012
8:56 am
I usually don’t agree with much WnE says but it does really suck to see guys that we were close to signing tearing it up for other teams. In addition to the ones he listed I think the RB Thornton for NC State had us as a finalist too and the kid looks like hes got some skills.
Keepin' It Real
October 9th, 2012
8:57 am
In CPJ’s first year, the senior recruiting class was ranked like thirty somethin when they signed (under Gailey). At the end of their season, the experts re-evaluated based on output and they were then ranked top 10 (under CPJ). Currently, UGA supposedly has 10 of 11 starters on defense that are going to the NFL… They give up 35 points to an offense led by Conner Shaw (not Geno Smith or Taj Boyd). Really…
It is clear Tech will never get as many perceived 5-star players as do UGA. Yet, Tech has more National titles, and put queit a few of those players in the NFL. Go figure. So much for perceived talent. Come on son!
YO YO
October 9th, 2012
9:00 am
PJ is not doing anything to advance the program. Poor staff, poor recruiting, poor coaching, poor play and super hard headed Head Coach with the personality of a tapeworm.
The real answers
October 9th, 2012
9:04 am
Techies are dreaming when listing all of these wished for coaches. Face the facts
A position coaching position at most D1 schools is a better job than a coordinator position at Tek.
A coordinator position at most D1 schools is better than the H.C. position at Tek.
Tek will never win the ACC Championship – I say NEVER as in NEVER……………………..
333
October 9th, 2012
9:06 am
You techies say that UGA fans are delusional—–look at yourselves!!! Tech football has been irrelevant nationally since the days of Bobby Dodd. Let’s be realistic–does anyone anywhere place tech in the upper or even middle tier of college football–of course not.
Soper
October 9th, 2012
9:23 am
Groh was the scapegoat. But wat defensive coordinator would agree to coach in a scheme that runs a triple options? Who wants to face a scheme in practice, you rarely see in a real game?
ESPN was right.
http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/67871/paul-johnson-finds-his-scapegoat
Tokyo jacket
October 9th, 2012
9:24 am
Mark, I agree that the talent level of our defense (or team for that matter) isn’t where it should be. But, you said it yourself, we ought to be able to line up in man-2 against MTSU, even with the current level of talent, and allow no more than 14 points period.
I like Al Groh. The man knows football. The results aren’t there and this is a big business. 49% of me wishes Groh could have turned it around, but 51% of me is focussed on the point a minute defense we play in the fourth quarter. Hopefully Coach Kelly will be able to get things good enough for us to maintain our bowl streak by the end of the year.
tooltime234
October 9th, 2012
9:29 am
Agree tokyo jacket. Absolutely no reason to give up 49 points to MTSU.
Wet Willie...keep on smiling
October 9th, 2012
9:36 am
GT football is in No Man’s Land..
No money to buyout the HC
No (not much) talent
No reason to look toward the future
Tokyo jacket
October 9th, 2012
9:41 am
Mark, we’d love to hear your take on ptoential candidates. Obviously, two things would be ideal for those candidates to bring to the table: 1) teach tackling and 2) increase talent through recruiting. Can Tech shell out the type of money that Clemson is using on a coordinator? We save money on the OC, so can we make a splash w/ the DC? Here’s my list:
* Kirby Smart – Dreaming, but fun to dream about. Prob looking at $1.5M
* Randy Shannon – Maybe, would be a good character fit at GT and has good in roads to talent/speed-rich south Florida.
* John Tenuta – Not likely. How many Tech fans said “if we only had this D when we had Joe Hamilton or even Goose?” Too much bad blood and poor performance since by Tenuta.
* Kelley – maybe he makes things happen for the rest of the year? If so, I’d expect a promotion. Not sure he solves the talent problem.
* Giff Smith – maybe. Position coach in NFL to DC in college is a sight promotion. Smith was Tech’s best recruiter. Maybe he could get more Dwyers, Morgans, and Burnetts?
* Ted Roof – please no! That didn’t work too well the first time.
Assuming we don’t shell out well north of a million for Mr. Smart (though I wish we would), I think Randy Shannon or Giff Smith would be the next best choices to a) teach kids how to tackle better and get them to play with more passion and b) increase the defensive talent level to remain competitive w/ our entire schedule.
john
October 9th, 2012
9:42 am
In order for Tech to be able to compete on this level of college football, they need to be aloowed to open itself up to more majors. But as long as the political reality in this state is geared toward the cesspool to the east, that won’t happen.
juice sourcer
October 9th, 2012
9:48 am
Real simple. Johnson fired him to shift the blame off himself. Groh was the fall guy. West Virginia is giving up huge yards and points on defense…should their defensive coordinator be fired? Even Clemson with all their talent ( much better than Tech) is giving up huge yardage and points….they have a new coordinator. this year because WVU put up 70 on them in last years Orange Bowl…hows that working out….should he be fired also…typical of big college football or even business….fire someone thats not responsible to take the heat on you.
GT
October 9th, 2012
9:51 am
I look at places like TCU. Patterson comes in their and builds a defense on fumes, as has other coaches at off the path programs. Good coaching is one of the real wonders of the world. If we could figure out how one guy makes you look like a bum and the other guy can make you look like an all American you have made the discovery of a lifetime.
I was thinking the talent might be our problem until I saw the Middle Tennessee funeral. The players lay down, there was no talent issue in this game, it was a moral issue on defense with the defensive co sitting in a box above it all. We put too much weight on talent, especially in college football. Georgia has talent, but Spurrier owns Georgia, he is that better a coach. I am not sure if Richt was coaching the Falcons against Spurrier at South Carolina if Spurrier wouldn’t win.
Paul Johnson is a very good coach, who understands what he is trying to do. You don’t need a great defensive coach with his ball control, but like he says you don’t need to expect the opponent to score on every play either. We also have seemed this year the whole offensive world speed up in college football. What was good to hire three years ago is not good now. He recognizing it is a good thing, and he saying he thinks the talent is better than what is advertised is a correct assumption. Nobody can be that bad.
Freddie Blassie
October 9th, 2012
9:52 am
Jerry Glanville is tanned, rested and living in the city. I don’t think Glanville likes CPJ and it wouldn’t be long before he’d stab CPJ in the back, but it would be better than giving up 600 yards per game and losing.
Let’s see how the remaining defensive staff fares before we give up. The offense is scoring enough to win.
VaGTFan
October 9th, 2012
9:52 am
No doubt Groh had to go. Mid season was smart timing. This gives us a jump start on finding a distinguished DC by season’s end. Meanwhile, expect the same defensive results for the remainder of the year. We go 2-4 the rest of the season thus ending the year with an 4 – 8 record.
Jacket Man
October 9th, 2012
10:01 am
GA Tech’s offense has been scoring enough points to win games, but their defense is giving up too many points that allow them to do so. To the people who try to say it’s because their defenders have to practice against the Jacket offense so they can never be prepared to play against their opponents so it’s impossible for them to succeed; that’s an idiotic statement – GA Tech’s 1st and 2nd team defense practices against the scout team, which runs GA Tech’s next opponent’s offense, not the Jacket offense. In fact, the only time the Jacket 1st and 2nd team defense might even go up against their 1st and 2nd team offense would be during Spring practices, and frankly, that would be awfully rare.
So this begs the question; if the offense is scoring enough to win games and the defense is costing the team wins, and they’re practicing against scout teams running their opponents offenses, then whose to blame for the losses? I think the answer is obvious – whomever is responsible for the defense, not the offense.
I might also suggest that having a Head Coach who isn’t afraid to make tough decisions, no matter when they need to occur, is a positive thing, not a negative, and I’ll bet there’s a ton of fans at other schools who wish they had head coaches who had the guts to make changes when he thought they were needed like Paul Johnson does, even if it’s in mid-season. A coach who identifies a problem and acts decisively to correct it is a winner not a whiner; a pro-active coach not a passive one. I’ll take him any day of the week over one who just sits back and waits to see if things will ever get better on their own.
Jacket Man
October 9th, 2012
10:04 am
Paul Johnson isn’t going anywhere; don’t listen to the lying trolls.
Delbert D.
October 9th, 2012
10:05 am
It’s not the majors. It’s the Bachelor of Science requirements as opposed to the Bachelor of Arts. Maybe the psychology major is more difficult at Tech, the math requirements aside, than the psychology major at Georgia, Clemson, Auburn, et al. I don’t think that Georgia Tech will ever add majors like this one. This is the opening sentence on Georgia’s web site for employment opportunities for Housing majors:
“Career Opportunities:
Students with a housing major are prepared for employment with local, state, and federal housing agencies, helping tenants with housing use and maintenance practices.”
GT
October 9th, 2012
10:09 am
Tech has played three major opponents on its schedule and has led all three into the 4th quarter. Did you notice how Georgia beat Vanderbilt, or even how South Carolina beat Georgia. Those kinds of losses haven’t happen here because we score points.
We can’t be like Georgia, and not sure we want to be. They have talent that I am not sure they or anybody can coach. I think Spurrier is much more careful who he brings into South Carolina than Richt is at Georgia. You got 4.3 speed but an attitude, the speed is negated by the brain. Not enough is said about the character of Latimore or Shaw, but Spurrier has a way of keeping the light off his players. So does Johnson. Unlike Georgia who works the press, very little is known about what Tech has. Johnson like Spurrier takes a bath and is underestimated because of it, but that is exactly what they are trying to do.
Go For 2
October 9th, 2012
10:33 am
Mark: So by your theory that the players are key…I’d guess we’d have to say that UGA’s Defense may be the most over-rated in the country…right? I mean what causes such poor effort …not as bad as GTech’s but pretty bad this season after traditional hype from the Dawg apologists
Billyho55
October 9th, 2012
10:36 am
I GUESS NO ONE FULLY READS COMMENTS! GUYS, I SAID AGE ANNNNND “DEMEANOR!”
YOU GUYS WERE STATING OBVIOUS FACTS! I KNOW ALL THOSE GUYS’ AGE AND RECORDS! YOU CAN BE THE OVERSEER OF A PROGRAM AT AN ADVANCED AGE! I JUST DON’T BELIEVE A COORDINATOR SHOULD BE OF THAT AGE AND HAVE A “DEMEANOR” OF GROH’S TO SUCCEED! READ THE ENTIRE POST BEFORE BITCHING! YOU WILL NOT ASS-SUME!
GT is at best a 65 % team
October 9th, 2012
10:37 am
GT with decent recruits can win 65-70% of their games.When GT faces athletic defensive teams that can pursue and tackle, they will generally lose.
GT should join a small ball conference and eventually will win vs. A MTSU.
GTBob
October 9th, 2012
10:37 am
Not into calling out players’ names but I don’t see anybody on defense that could play for UGAG, for example only, regardless what Rivals rated them or what other school was making them offers.
I would disagree. But then again most teams don’t have any players that could play for UGA. UGA has 4-5 star players at almost every position. If your expectation is for us to start recruiting like UGA then you are going to be pretty disappointed.