Hoops insider: So which is the bigger dud – Tech or UGA?
"So why aren't we better than this? You're asking ME? " (AJC photo by Hyosub Shin)
Hoops Hysterics
1. Georgia is tied for last in the SEC. Georgia Tech is dead last in the ACC. Which team is more disappointing? Georgia, and not just because the Bulldogs managed to lose to Tech in Athens. (The Jackets are 3-9 since.) A team in Year 3 under its coach, as Georgia is, should be much further along than a team in Year 1, as is the case with Tech. If the Bulldogs don’t win a big game or two the second half of the league season, the advances of last season will be canceled out.
2. How many NCAA tournament bids will the ACC command? How many for the SEC? The ACC could get stuck on four — North Carolina, Duke, Florida State and Virginia — if North Carolina State continues to slide and Miami doesn’t make a big push. The SEC has four almost-certains — Kentucky, Florida, Vanderbilt and Mississippi State — but Alabama lost four in a row and, its RPI of 33 notwithstanding, could be overtaken by Ole Miss. There’s a chance the SEC could get six, but five seems more like it.
3. Will Bobby Cremins return to the College of Charleston next season? The guess is no. Although technically he has taken only a leave of absence for the rest of this season, the (unspecified but said not to be life-threatening) health issues that forced him to step aside don’t augur well for a comeback at age 65. His Cougars beat Clemson and Tennessee early in the season but have suffered a run of injuries and lost seven of the past nine games. It has been reported that Cremins offered to resign Friday but agreed to the leave of absence instead.
My Super Sweet Sixteen
1. Kentucky: With Tennessee and South Carolina upcoming, this stands to be another ho-hum week. Next week, however, will bring games against Vanderbilt and Florida.
2. Ohio State: The surging Buckeyes only play once this week, but their date at Wisconsin on Saturday stands to be one of the Big Ten’s biggest games of the season.
3. Syracuse: Those seeking the worst call (or non-call, in this case) of the year need look no further than Baye Keita’s blatant goaltend against West Virginia on Saturday.
4. North Carolina: Only eight more days until the Tar Heels face Duke in the Dean Dome. Possible trap game: Carolina must play at Maryland on Saturday.
5. Missouri: All season folks have wondered if Mizzou is for real. This week should help provide an answer: The Tigers play at Texas, then face Kansas in Columbia.
6. Duke: Only eight more days until the Blue Devils face North Carolina in the Dean Dome. Possible trap game: Miami in Cameron on Super Bowl Sunday.
7. Baylor: For the Bears, this is the week before the week. They face Texas A&M and Oklahoma State on the road. Next week brings Kansas and Missouri.
8. Murray State: The Racers are still undefeated, and at 21-0 Steve Prohm is tied with Lou Rossini of Columbia for the third-best start by any first-year coach ever.
9. Kansas: Can’t carp overmuch about the Jayhawks’ upset loss at Iowa State. The resurgent Cyclones are pretty good, and Kansas hadn’t lost since before Christmas.
10. Michigan State: This is a prove-it week for the men of Izzo. They play at Illinois on Tuesday, then face Michigan, which just beat State by a point, in East Lansing.
11. Florida: The latest contender for second-best-team-in-the-SEC will be identified Saturday in Gainesville when the hot Gators face almost-as-hot Vandy.
12. Creighton: The Bluejays’ winning streak stands at 10 in a row. The name to know: Forward Doug McDermott, who averages 23.5 points and 8.4 rebounds a game.
13. Saint Mary’s: The Gaels’ winning streak stands at 11 in a row. The name to know: Australian guard Matthew Dellavedova, who averages 15.4 points and 6.4 assists.
14. Florida State: The game to determine the ACC’s third-best team comes Saturday, when Virginia visits Tallahassee. First up for the ‘Noles: Georgia Tech on Wednesday.
15. Marquette: The Golden Eagles have risen to second in the 16-team Big East but have beaten only one conference opponent — Louisville — of real consequence.
16. Virginia: A narrow escape at North Carolina State lifted the Cavaliers to 15-3, but they still must play North Carolina and Florida State twice each.
Dropped out: San Diego State, Georgetown, Mississippi State.
By Mark Bradley
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127 comments Add your comment
Mark Bradley
January 30th, 2012
2:26 pm
I really don’t think anyone expected both Thompkins and Leslie to return. Maybe one, but not both.
And the “we-lost-players-to-the-NBA” line really doesn’t cut it anymore. Anybody who’s any good leaves early. A program has to keep re-stocking. And it has to win big when it has the chance. Not many second chances in this sport.
Fair n Balanced
January 30th, 2012
2:28 pm
What were the advances of last year?
Bobby Knight
January 30th, 2012
2:28 pm
UGA has virtually no inside presence (other than D. Williams who is usually outmanned by two to three good front line players on other teams) and relies on an inconsistent group of shooters, who frequently appear to be brick layers, to convert from outside of the 3-pt line. Not necessarily there fault since every team knows we rely on the outside shot since we have no interior threats to speak of. Until they build an inside presence they will remain cellar dwellers. Hopefully CMF can develop some of the bigs he brought in before next season so we can be a complete team. Fox has the odds stacked against him unless he can recruit some higher quality players like KCP going forward, hopefully Morris will help next year. PG is also going to be occupied by youth going forward so better recruit some talent. In regard to Tech – NOBODY REALLY CARES – haven’t been worth a d@*% since Cremins left.
Mark Bradley
January 30th, 2012
2:29 pm
And it wasn’t just that Thompkins and Leslie left. So did big men Chris Barnes and Jeremy Price. They were seniors.
blazer
January 30th, 2012
2:32 pm
uga bball in a old barn-they don’t even care about it.
George P
January 30th, 2012
2:38 pm
Well, at least we can inbounds the ball this season. Incremental progress. Its hard to believe how one coach can destroy a program in just a few short years.
TruthSeeker
January 30th, 2012
2:39 pm
Fox seems like an OK coach but nothing special. I don’t think UGA should look to get rid of him because I have no delusions that they’re a great program and because finding a good coach who wants to come here would be difficult, but Fox hasn’t done much to impress so far. His best coaching job was his first year, and that team still lost 17 games.
DawginJail
January 30th, 2012
2:42 pm
The real question is which is the biggest disappointment, UGA Football or UGA Basketball? And by the way, I’m ready to commit.
BulldogBen
January 30th, 2012
2:45 pm
Totally agree about UGA’s season. Yes we lost 2 NBA talent players but like Bradley said, in Year 3, we should at least be competitive against the rest of the SEC. That means at least an 8-8 conference record. If you’ve watched the team this year, you know that will be a miracle.
Felton got 5 seasons. If Fox doesn’t make the tourney next year or the year after he has to go. We should not settle for this. We have too many resources.
BjohnDawg
January 30th, 2012
2:47 pm
I watched practice on Saturday. Fox looked pretty relaxed for someone on the “hot seat”.
But he needs to get some players in and win with his own recruits.
I am not impressioned with the recruits so far…with exception of K. Pope.
Mark Bradley
January 30th, 2012
2:47 pm
Dennis Felton got six seasons. (Or 5 1/2, to be accurate.) He would have been out after five had Georgia not won the 2008 SEC tournament.
Mark Bradley
January 30th, 2012
2:49 pm
And let’s be clear: Fox isn’t on the hot seat. But I do think his program has taken a major step back this season. I knew there’d be some rebuilding required, but I didn’t expect Georgia to be 1-5 in the SEC and to have lost five home games.
Jimmy Crack
January 30th, 2012
2:50 pm
“A team in Year 3 under its coach, as Georgia is, should be much further along than a team in Year 1, as is the case with Tech. If the Bulldogs don’t win a big game or two the second half of the league season, the advances of last season will be canceled out.”
Advantages of last season??? Oh, you mean those two “advantages” that are counting their money and warming the Clippers’ bench in L.A., Mark? This ain’t “Year Three”, it’s “Year One” all over again. Georgia could have been a NCAA contender this season, but will not be because Fox’s two best players (by far) at their PEAK, just disappeared from his roster. Mark, 40% of UGA’s 2010-2011 starters, including over 70% of their scoring, left early for the NBA (stupidly I will add). That basically made Coach Fox start over from scratch with a play-in audition to incoming freshmen. When Seniors leave, the HC is responsible BEFOREHAND for recruiting players who will already be in place when graduation time arrives. When ONE talented starting player leaves a team EARLY, it leaves a void in the starting lineup and creates a hole for other teams to take advantage. WHEN TWO OR MORE star players leave early (as underclassmen) it completely destroys any team “progress” that may have occurred and basically hits the reset button for that entire season.
So I would say Tech and Georgia are TIED in the lousy department, with the tie-breaker going to Tech who won their head-to-head matchup. Just not much different situations.
LakeDawg
January 30th, 2012
2:50 pm
Fox is a hell of a coach, but his recruiting has been abysmal. Its tough to recruit to UGA, but if he doesn’t start bringing in better talent he is sunk. Right now, UGA has only one player with SEC talent. The rest are mid-major at best. The next class seems to be better, but is it good enough? Fox doesn’t need much to be successful.
GSUStud
January 30th, 2012
2:51 pm
Is it true that Ga Tech is really going back to Div II in sports? I hope so.
Mark Bradley
January 30th, 2012
2:52 pm
As far as players leaving, let’s note that Tech is playing without early NBA entrant Iman Shumpert, who was drafted (far) ahead of both Thompkins and Leslie, plus Brian Oliver, who transferred after Gregory was hired.
JSS
January 30th, 2012
3:02 pm
Ted Striker!!! Good to see you, keep ‘em honest young man!!!
Fair n Balanced
January 30th, 2012
3:07 pm
Why isn’t Felton on the hot seat? If we were talking about football……. It’s just that GA does not expect much from the basketball program, or there would be an outcry. But how is this a rebuilding season? I mean, when were we built? I certainly thought last yr was a minimum pass at best. This year is a disaster. 3 years in and GA is dead last I the conference and can only hope to beat SC to get out of the cellar. Is this where we expected to be in 3 years? I don’t think so. And I agree with Mark, the fact that GA lost a couple players to the NBA does not fly anymore.
Gordon
January 30th, 2012
3:08 pm
Mark,
Not to mention Moe Miller, who was a PG who I never really appreciated until this year. I think we actually miss him more than Oliver.
Also, a myth that needs to be retired is that Gregory was about to get fired at Dayton. He won 97 games his last 4 years. We’ll see if he works out at Tech, but I’ve seen nothing yet that makes me think he is in over his head. As someone stated above, Fox’s problem might be getting 4 and 5 star talent to UGA. He did last year with KCP, but I was surprised he couldn’t get anyone this year. Gregory stole Carter from him even with a late start.
Ignition
January 30th, 2012
3:09 pm
GT gets what they deserve
Gordon
January 30th, 2012
3:11 pm
Fair N Balanced,
The reason Felton isn’t on the hot seat is that he isn’t an active coach. The reason Fox isn’t on the hot seat is that he coaches at a school where many fans don’t know the name of the coach.
Mark Bradley
January 30th, 2012
3:11 pm
Moe Miller saved the 2009-2010 season, Gordon. I’d agree that he was a major loss as well.
JSS
January 30th, 2012
3:12 pm
Well, it is funny just how bad the major D-1 programs really are! Thompkins and Leslie were game changers on the college level; but man they are getting a baptism under fire in the NBA… While the lockout was in progress, I got to watch a ton of D-1 games (and some international ball at the Pan-Am Games) and difference is just startling!
Mark Bradley, that Murray team is the OVC’s version of Butler, they may be playing in the last game… Don’t give up on SDSU just yet, they were made for March…
Mark Bradley
January 30th, 2012
3:13 pm
Not giving up on SDSU, JSS. Just was surprised they lost by 17 at Colorado State after winning at New Mexico. Maybe just the road blahs …
PreyDawg
January 30th, 2012
3:14 pm
Asking this from Western Kentucky area. Did you consider Murray State in your 16 teams. We are pretty excited about them up here.
PreyDawg
January 30th, 2012
3:15 pm
Sorry, didn’t see the earlier Murray post.
Mark Bradley
January 30th, 2012
3:16 pm
Oh, yes. Murray State is No. 8. And I can proudly say that I’ve seen maybe the two greatest Racers ever play in person — Mont Sleets and Popeye Jones.
GT
January 30th, 2012
3:16 pm
Georgia is playing in one of the weakest SEC years in a long while. A little effort on their part could have poked a hole in the ceiling. I think Fox is seeing this backwoods basketball doesn’t work like football. Georgia on paper looks great but in reality it has never been a destination school.
Tech is playing in a conference that is much stronger than most believed it would be. A good Tech team would have problems in this conference, like the one Hewitt had two years ago that couldn’t get out of its own way. I can’t remember a thing telling us this wouldn’t be this kind of year and not having a real home, this was always a throw away season like so many Hewitt had, only his were unexpected.
Gordon
January 30th, 2012
3:17 pm
UGA loses senior guards Robinson and Ware next year. Those 3 freshmen better work out well and KCP better stay at least 3 years or Fox will really have some problems. Gregory’s problem is that he needs to sign a PG this year or it will be 14/15, his fourth year, before he has a talented experienced point guard.
Mark Bradley
January 30th, 2012
3:17 pm
I’m not sure the SEC is all that weak, GT.
PreyDawg
January 30th, 2012
3:19 pm
Sorry. My bad. Read through the list too fast. Yes, we all talk about Popeye to this day. I am a UGA alum and fan and a Falcon through and through but my son and I like to go to a few Murray games and occasionally WKU. That way we don’t feel like we are betraying the DAWGS somehow. If we went to a UK game we would feel like turncoats. Of course we couldn’t get a ticket anyway probably.
Gordon
January 30th, 2012
3:22 pm
It hurts UGA that even though they no longer have divisions in basketball, they still are playing the same schedule as before (every former East team twice). UK, Vandy, and UF are all very good and will be 6-0 combined against UGA, and Tennessee will probably beat them at home. Tech lucked out in that it plays the 4 best ACC teams only once each.
JSS
January 30th, 2012
3:26 pm
Losing Ware is addition by subtraction, he’ll never understand his weaknesses and really work on them… Maybe 4 to 5 fresh faces (in 2012-2013) could be just the thing to clear the decks in Athens and get them to see where they need to go?
I’m sorry, but the lower to middle teams in SEC are something scary bad… A lot of teams with horrible chemistry issues! The same can be said for the Big 10…
BulldogBen
January 30th, 2012
3:29 pm
Jimmy Crack, way to miss the point of the whole article. Point is, despite the losses, this team should at least be competitive and not staring directly at a 3-13 or 4-12 conference record.
GT, the biggest fallacy in college basketball these days is that the ACC is the toughest basketball league. It has been living off Duke/UNC for years. It is a very top heavy conference with over half of it being mediocre to bad.
Help Wanted
January 30th, 2012
3:30 pm
This is easy…Georgia…Mark Fox is in his third year…this year UGA was going to become one of those 2nd tier teams…ain’t happenin’…it’s unfortunate…Fox is a good coach…but UGA ain’t a BBall school
BigTimeTechFan
January 30th, 2012
3:36 pm
Put Xavier in the Sweet 16, they are back on track after the supensions
They beat:
Vandy
Georgia
Purdue
Butler
Gordon
January 30th, 2012
3:36 pm
I have to agree with BulldogBen about the ACC, but I think several teams made coaching changes in the last few years that will have us back to being a 6 or 7 bid league before too long. I think Turgeon was not an upgrade for Maryland but a solid coach. Bennett, Larranega, Gregory, Gottfried, and Donahue are all better than their predecessors. Bzedelik I’m not so sure about.
Joey
January 30th, 2012
3:38 pm
You didn’t mention the girls, Mark (shame on you, you sexist!) but I think the first coach that should be run off in Athens is Landers.
Recruits well, but lets Georgia’s best go out of state (Maya Moore).Sends players to the Pros and Olympics, but can’t win anything big with them, himself.
Gee, that sounds familiar . . .
JSS
January 30th, 2012
3:39 pm
Prey Dawg, you need to go to one UK-UL or UK-IU game once in your life… That is bucket list stuff, you won’t regret it…
I dislike college basketball; but I to this day still remember my first UK game in Rupp (LSU)…
The coach Gregory project
January 30th, 2012
3:40 pm
I like what Gregory is doing at Tech. Yes, Tech lost the best player between the two schools. Shumpert is averging double digits in points and started 12 games, so it was a good decision for him to go (unlike Crittenton) The showing against Duke was unbelievable and I don’t think many Tech fans had been that excited in a big game in a couple of years.
Everyone forgot that Hewitt’s good teams were good. Duke ACC finals loss 3 times I think. No other school than chapel hill had been to the finals that many times in that span. But he could not get enough regular season wins and so his fate was decided.
Gregory is recruiting like a beast. To come in with a top 15 recruiting class his first full year is excellent. He wants good D and that is hard to teach but will reap benefits of knocking off the big schools in the future. With good recruits the ceiling will only get higher. Can’t wait to see what the next few years bring!
Tech was outmatched by UNC because we could not defend that transition game. I disagree with the coaching being mediocre. I think the players who are great leave.
Coaching mediocre – You have to admit coach K is an excellent coach. His international team results speak for themselves. We weren’t doing that before he got there like they are now. And I’ve seen him get outcoached on a given night. although its very seldom.
AP
January 30th, 2012
3:47 pm
As long as UGA continues to promote, remodel, etc. Stegeman, they will be at a disadvantage in hoops. Past time to bulldoze and rebuild!!!!!! A new state of the art facility like they have in Auburn, Florida, Tennessee and many others would go a long way in beginning an actual basketball culture in Athens. Fox will be gone soon for another job as I think he realizes this.
RaleighDawg
January 30th, 2012
3:51 pm
Coach Fox was a bad hire. He rode Trent Johnson’s coatails to the UGA job and he has ridden Dennis Felton’s coatails to the end of last season. He’s got his kids and his system in place, buth his ‘three man weave, then throw up a three pointer” offense clearly isn’t working…he successfully recruits two of the top players in the state at the end of 2010, but then plays them both an average of 7 minutes a game last year – wasting both potential redshirt years and not doing anything to prepare them for this season…he starts Connor Nolte while Trey is out at the start of last season as a obvious ploy to convince his younger brother to attend UGA, then forgets him for the next two years when the brother signs with UVA.,,he preaches defense yet continues to play players who can’t play defense…if Coach Fox was as smart as some folks think he would have used last year as a springboard to another job….and next year will be even worse as we have no experience guards short of Vinnie Williams who trys so hard to follow in Gerald Williams footsteps he won’t even throw the ball inbounds. If UGA is lucky Coach Fox will be gone in two years and we can try again to build a men’s basketball program.
DP
January 30th, 2012
3:53 pm
I didn’t realize until I saw it on the ESPN ticker yesterday that before last night’s UNC-Tech game that UNC had lost 4 in a row to Tech. When it comes to embarrassments for Hall of Fame caliber coaches, Roy Williams losing 4 times in a row to Paul Hewitt is up there with the Old Ball Coach losing twice to Mike Dubose in one season.
And I agree with crackbaby about the quality of college basketball. I used to be a huge fan, now rarely see a game I can watch for more than a few minutes. Last year’s championship game was between a team that finished 9-9 in its own conference during the regular season (UConn) and a team that was on the bubble to even make the tournament with a month left in the season (Butler). And then Butler went something like 3 for its first 30 from the field in the championship game.
Supersize that order, mutt
January 30th, 2012
3:56 pm
I’m not disappointed with the UGA season; in fact I am totally enjoying it. I really wasn’t even aware that they still had a basketball program in Athens. Have the players learned yet how many points are in a 3-point basket? Actually, I am not disappointed with Tech’s season either, because it’s what everybody with any basketball knowledge at all predicted. In many ways they have done better than most people expected. At least they beat that intramural team in Athens, not that that really means all that much.
Boise Dawg
January 30th, 2012
3:58 pm
Mark I completely agree.. I recognized that this was going to be a rebuilding year, but a lot of teams lose significant star talent each year in college basketball. The best coaches can reload quickly. I don’t think this season is an indictment on Fox’s future potential, but he better find some answers… if we aren’t back to NCAA consideration by year 5 (2 years from now). Both Tubby and Harrick proved you can win big at UGA. I know everyone loathes Harrick but that guy knew bb talent and could flat out coach. Too bad he was also a sleaze ball.
Ignition
January 30th, 2012
4:01 pm
What’s George Mason’s record ????
ToeMeetsLeather
January 30th, 2012
4:03 pm
No surprises with this TECH team. We knew the “Hewitt exorcism” would probably be a two year affair. But you heard it here first folks, TECH goes to the sweet sixteen in 14′. Carter, Miller, Holsey & Royal down low with Poole, Hunt, Bolden, Morris and our future PG slashing to the basket and feeding the bigs. Add to this a state of the art new arena, and the “Thrillerdome” will be back in business shortly.
As for the mutts, they should probably turn the ‘barn” over to the VET school and give up round ball.
Ah, “just messin with you dawg fans”, as Doyle Hargraves would say.
Saint Simmons 2
January 30th, 2012
4:07 pm
Hey everyone , how about the bigger DUD ! Bradley Or Schultz !!!!!
Comments welcomed !!!!!
Dawglasville
January 30th, 2012
4:12 pm
Supersize that order, mutt – I know from experience (growing up a Tech fan) that winning in basketball gives you guys a little bit of salve for your football wound. You don’t have to wait until baseball season when you try to convince us that winning three baseball games is much better than winning a football and a basketball game.
UO5150
January 30th, 2012
4:19 pm
UGA will never be a Basketball program. Their is just no emphasis from the University to be so. Fox is a good coach. The best coach that UGA can get. No top notch coach will come to UGA unless the University puts as much attention on Basketball as it does football. Won’t happen. It will be a tough year this year, but next year will be better.
As for tech, it does not often happen that a 1st year coach that has taken on as many problems as Gregory has does well. Two years from now they will be a 20+ win team. The ACC brings in the top recruits and I think he will pick up on a couple of them.
Either teams fan base is talking out of their tail ends if they won’t their respective coach fired because of the years they are having this year. Just tells me that those that do are pretty clueless about the process!