Give Wren a hand for not overreacting to the Braves’ collapse
"And the award for most patient general manager goes to ... " (AJC photo by Jason Getz)
On Aug. 24, 2011, the Atlanta Braves awoke having won 78 games. Only one major-league team (Philadelphia) had won more. They led the wild-card race by 9 1/2 games with 32 remaining, and the in-house question wasn’t, “Are we going to blow this?” Instead, it was, “Can we win it all?”
Thirty-five days later, the Braves lost Game No. 162 in 13 innings and failed to qualify for the playoffs. They finished with 89 victories, having dropped 21 of those final 32. The collapse was so comprehensive that it took Frank Wren, the general manager, a few weeks just to be able to view baseball again, and his wasn’t a solitary response. Speaking with fellow Braves employees, uniformed staffers among them, he found they couldn’t watch, either.
But then it changed. By the end, Wren was watching — watching as the St. Louis Cardinals, the team that chased down the Braves, celebrated a World Series title.
“We did not play well in September,” Wren said this week, stating the obvious. “We had a really bad month.”
But now it’s a new year. Distance can’t erase what happened in September 2011, but distance has enabled Wren to see what was, to many eyes, obscured by the debris of a good season gone rotten. Yes, the Braves had a historically bad month, but that’s not the same as being a bad team.
The same Wren who has made trades hand over fist in other offseasons — and in the middle of seasons, too — has consummated only one significant deal this time, that being the sell-off of Derek Lowe to Cleveland. This absence of visible activity from a GM who tends to be hyperactive has left some Braves fans to wonder how a team-builder could fail to shore a team that failed so miserably. The answer is that Wren doesn’t believe the Braves of September were the real Braves.
Said Wren: “Once the disappointment fades, that’s the approach you have to take.”
And if the 2012 Braves do come north in April with this roster, how would Wren feel? “We’d feel like we had a chance to be an even better team than we were last year.”
We pause here for your scoffs: Team flops, team adds nobody of consequence, team expects to improve? Well, yes. The starting rotation, which lost two key men (Jair Jurrjens and Tommy Hanson) to injury down the stretch, stands to be healthy again. The bullpen, which was the best part of the 2011 Braves, stands to be even deeper. And a man who arrived not long before last season came undone figures to have an outsize influence on 2012.
For years, Braves fans have demanded a True Leadoff Man. Wren found one, at not much cost, at the trading deadline. “Michael Bourn alone will change our offense,” Wren said. “He sets us up very well to take the current roster into the season.”
Last season the Braves’ offense stunk on ice. So long as the starting pitchers went deep into games and Jonny Venters and Craig Kimbrel held every lead, the wins kept coming, but when Jurrjens and Hanson went down and the overtaxed relievers began to wobble … well, that’s how you lose 21 of your final 32. A full season of Bourn — and a new hitting coach in Greg Walker — should help the offense, but Dan Uggla and Jason Heyward and Martin Prado have to hit better, too.
Wren: “People have to bounce back. [Some guys] have a lot to prove.”
For the moment, Wren sounds as content as Wren ever gets. “We don’t have to move players for financial reasons. We don’t have to make a move because we have big holes to fill.”
If Prado and Heyward return to All-Star form, the corner-outfield issue gets tabled. Shortstop is another matter, but the Braves have hopes for the rookie Tyler Pastornicky. Unless you were a huge fan of Lowe and/or the departed Alex Gonzalez, if you liked the Braves’ chances heading into last season you should like them again now.
“If everyone bounces back, we’ve got a good ballclub,” Wren said. “We don’t have a major need.”
There’s not apt to be a big trade coming this spring. (”As a practicality, that’s probably the case,” Wren said.) And here we have to salute this GM for resisting the mighty urge, in the backwash of an epic fade, to do something, anything, everything. What happened was bad, but the worst thing Wren could have done was to take one bad month as cause to wreck a team poised for a run of many good years. He didn’t. He got it right.
By Mark Bradley
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252 comments Add your comment
kent
January 19th, 2012
3:59 pm
There has to be some sort of accountability on the leadership level for the collapse last year. I have no faith in this manager or this team- like all Georgia teams, they have no heart.
George Stein
January 19th, 2012
3:59 pm
Agreed, PMC.
bvillebaron
January 19th, 2012
3:59 pm
Gumbo:
Actually Mark has it right. Did you and the other critics realize that (1) the team missed the playoffs by 1 lousy game despite losing 20 out of its last 30 games; (2) that neither Hanson nor Jurrjens pitched during the stretch run and Prado and McCann were slowed by injuries during the same time period; (3) the team improved already because any of their other choices is an upgrade over Derek Lowe (if you want to blame Wren for anything, blame him for agreeing with the decision to continue to parage Lowe out to pitch batting practice for his last 6 starts, including, the pivotal game while Teheran played catch with the bullpen catcher despite posting off the charts numbers in AAA); (4) Bourn will be with the team from the start of the season; and (5) making panic trades because of impatient fans like you is what kills franchises. Despite all their offseason moves and fanfare, neither the Marlins nor the Nationals are better teams than the Braves.
P.S. Were you the guy who called the MLB radio network the other night to suggest that the Braves trade Prado, Jurrjens and two of their premium pithcing prospects for a 4th outfielder like Seth Smith? If you were, please ‘fess up.
Kelly
January 19th, 2012
4:01 pm
these guys couldn’t hit for over half a year…when you add together the miserable first half with the flaccid flop in Sept, there is actually nothing to be encouraged about offensively. If you’re one to believe that pitching alone wins championships, there’s one World Series banner hanging in the Ted to show for all that regular season success.
SawThat1nce
January 19th, 2012
4:02 pm
The “real Braves” of last season could not get hits with RISP, with the game on the line.
meh
January 19th, 2012
4:02 pm
it feels like every year we’re saying if so and so bounces back and if this other guy gets healthy than we’ll be awesome.
Just The Facts
January 19th, 2012
4:03 pm
The problem is the Braves are built to do well when everything goes RIGHT which rarely happens. Basically half of their offense is suspect IMO. LF, RF, SS & 3rd. I love Chipper but they are not getting their “bang for the buck” for the % of payroll he eats up. Keep your fingers crossed because I’m guessing we won’t make move until it’s too late. You have to be more aggressive addressing the offensive issues in a division that’s this stacked. You have to “take a chance to have a chance” not play it safe. It’s like “playing not to lose instead of playing to win.” Time will tell.
Bob the Blogger
January 19th, 2012
4:03 pm
All we really need is for McCann, Prado, and Uggla turn in career average performances, and for Heyward to repeat his rookie year. That is a significant offensive upgrade right there.
SawThat1nce
January 19th, 2012
4:04 pm
I hope that they can get some hits when they need them, to win most of the 1 run games.
Marteen is a Ballplayer
January 19th, 2012
4:04 pm
What move was Wren supposed to make? You aren’t going to replace Bourn, McCann, Uggla, or Freeman. So that leaves Chipper, Prado, Heyward, and shortstop. We need Prado to replace Chipper when he is down and to play left field the rest of the time. As much as you would like to get a full-time 3rd baseman or full-time leftfielder, it simply doesn’t make sense.. That leaves Heyward and our SS.
If you are ready to give up on Heyward, then you have an argument there I guess…if that is the way you think.. We have a SS of the future coming up. If you want to trade him, that is just plain silly unless you have the foresight to know he is going to be a bust.
So Wren’s options were a short-stop (no way to make a huge splash for a rent-a-player), LF (meaning Prado rides the bench unless Chipper is hurt), or RF (which means you completely give up on Heyward after two seasons).
We have a young team with even more youth coming up. Any big splash we make will be in a year or two to replace Chipper (retirement), Bourn (not resigned), or LF (if Prado takes over 3rd).
Lastly, I do feel players are ultimately responsible for their hitting, but I can’t see a new hitting coach not helping tremendously. Like Lowe, the departure of our last non-experienced hitting coach is addition by subtraction.
Bama Brave
January 19th, 2012
4:05 pm
Who is Frank Wren???????
Rayk
January 19th, 2012
4:06 pm
I hope you’re putting us on. It’s one thing not to overreact, it’s another to do almost nothing to improve the team.
If the almost all the teams you play most against (own division) improve, bringing back the same team won’t bring the same results.
If SD and Oakland can get 4 decent players/prospects for their starters, we couldn’t get 2 for Jurgens ? Wren apparently got cute with the Reds and they went to SD with their charity.
Aside from Uggla and Chipper (who hits better lefty), where is the right handed power ? We have to face many lefties (Lee and Hamels, Buehrle now, Lannan, Niese and Santana at some point, ) and our lineup is stacked with lefties ?
I thought the point was normally to deal from surplus (pitching) to fill other needs. Are we going with a 7 man rotation and a 15 man staff ?
Burned
January 19th, 2012
4:06 pm
I for one will not complain when seats are empty this year. If the FO doesnt want to send a message to the fans that they want to win, then the fans should send a message that they arent going to deal with another pathetic collapse.
Doug Walker
January 19th, 2012
4:07 pm
“If Prado and Heyward return to All-Star form, the corner outfield issue gets tabled.”
That’s a bit of a glib hand wave at what could be an insurmountable challenge for the Braves. Heyward gave no indication at any point last season that he could remedy his struggles. I love Prado, but he might just be a pretty good, .270-ish hitter. What makes anyone think either of these guys will be All Stars again?
slydog
January 19th, 2012
4:08 pm
OK, OK, Mark Bradley, someone either threatened your job or threatened to limit your access to sports programs and franchises in the state of Georgia. This is like the 5th article in a row where you are clearly coddling all of these teams and refuse to call a spade a spade. But I won’t backtrack and bring up all the other articles where you, sir, are shining up mediocre product concerning UGA and GT football, the worthless Hawks and the pretty good but not championship worthy Larry Drew, and the average-talented Falcons. Let’s stick to the topic. Frank and the Braves organization is stagnant. STALE. MOLDING. This pitchers-first crap has got to be scrapped. I know what “good baseball-sense” is, but have the Braves won anything of consequence since 1995? These Braves are going nowhere until #1 They are sold #2 The entire management team is cleared out, to include Shuerholtz and his underlings. Nuff Said!!!
Mitchell
January 19th, 2012
4:08 pm
Why the hell should I or anybody give Frank Wren a hand? How ’bout no.
We already know he excells at inaction.
Maybe, Mark Bradley, if you weren’t such a hack you would have addressed some of the issues relating to the wildly underperforming offense during the season instead of conjuring fantasies of a playoff run.
Then maybe Frank Wren, had he any respect for you opinion, which I strongly doubt he does, might have actually taken action to change what any clear eyed Braves fan could plainly see, which was a team not performing on all levels and ultimately winning games by grinding the bullpen into the ground.
If the media in this town wasn’t such a joke there would still be someone questioning why the hell Fredi Gonzalez didn’t walk Hunter Pence one last time with the entire season on the line and whether he’s even capable of getting his team to the playoffs after such a dumb decision in a crucial game.
There might also be someone pondering how a team that won five pennants in the ’90s could go eleven years without winning a playoff series and why any fan or observer should believe they’ll contend for anything beyond the Nationl League wild card in 2012.
There most certainly would not be someone urging fans to congratulate the team’s General Manager for, yes, “doing nothing” in the off-season after overseeing one of the worst September collapses in the history of baseball.
Next time you ask people to give Frank Wren a hand, Mark, save it for when he actually does something.
Burned
January 19th, 2012
4:09 pm
Marlins…Reyes, Bell.
Nats….many upgrades and likely Prince
Braves….resign Wilson……get excited Atlanta. Our GM deserves all the credit in the world!!!!!
Tumbledown
January 19th, 2012
4:10 pm
I am tired of the status quo. Since the Braves won the World Series, they have compiled too deep a list of embarrassing finishes to their seasons: (1) collapsing against the Yankees in 1996; (2) sending out a “minor” league batting order in the 1998 NLCS Game Six; (3) a 4-0 loss to the Yankees in the 1999 World Series; (5) only ONE playoff series win since 1999 while making the playoffs seven times; (6) losing many of those series in a deciding game five on home turf; and (7) the historic collapse of 2011.
I am not sure that doing virtually nothing can reverse this incredible run of collapses, chokes, and underperformance when the going gets tough. Hopefully, Wren’s patience will payoff and these players will suddenly learn how to make the key pitch in crunch time, get the key out when needed, and deliver a timely hit when momentum is starting to go the other way. i know my patience as a long-time fan has eroded over the years.
George Stein
January 19th, 2012
4:10 pm
Heyward was the best hitter on the team in September, Doug.
invictus mon
January 19th, 2012
4:11 pm
So we got rid of Lowe which freed up $5M in salary and got a prospect for him. I always said whatever we did with that $5M could be counted in the trade. Seems like we spent right around that in securing our arb-eligibles. We’re going into the season with no real questions about who will play where. If he was going to make a move, I thought he would have done it to sure up SS. Seems like we’re putting a lot of pressure on Pastornicky not having a credible backup for him.
Heisenberg
January 19th, 2012
4:12 pm
I still say JJ has to be moved. There is enough pitching depth to compensate for him. And if there are not any glaring weaknesses in the big league roster, then stockpiling high quality prospects for the farm would be prudent rather than having him walk as a FA when the time comes.
I'm with ATL teams (Always)
January 19th, 2012
4:12 pm
As falcons are gone…..Now it is Go Hawks and Go Braves:) Waiting for Baseball season.
Kelly
January 19th, 2012
4:14 pm
It is kind of peculiar when you have Bradley telling us that inaction is solid and Ledbetter saying “real” Falcons fans should thank Mularkey.
Our purchases are our thank you’s.
childrojc
January 19th, 2012
4:14 pm
The Braves are much better off than they were last year going into the season. The Starting pitching should be youthful and deep as well as the bullpen. Real speed in the lineup including: Bourne, Pastornicky, Costanza.
Prado’s return to productivity along with giving chipper 2 or 3 days off a week. Freeman and Heyward start putting up veteran like power numbers comparable to Uggla and McCann. The availible Bench of : Jack Wilson, Erik Hinske, David Ross Matt Diaz, and Costanza.
The lineup should be:
Bourne
Prado
Chipper
Uggla
Freeman
McCann
Heyward
Pastornicky
Stating Rotation :
Hanson
Jurrjens
Hudson
Beachy
Minor/ Medlen
Available: Delgado,Teheran, O’Flarty, Venters, Kimbrel,
I’ll take that into 2012 !
So tired of the "If's"
January 19th, 2012
4:16 pm
If this, if that – I am so freaking tired of the “If’s” – that is all we heard last season….Heyward will continue to be a ZERO……Gimper Jones will continue to be a disabled has-been ball player, Jurjjens and Hanson should be traded as soon as possible – and Wren is just too stupid and conceited to realize how stupid he is……..wish he would be run out of town.
Old Dog
January 19th, 2012
4:16 pm
“He got it right?” What the hell, Mark, is Wren your brother-in-law? “He didn’t get right.” He’s screwing the pooch. This team wasn’t that great last year. They wore out the bullpen which probably wouldn’t have happened if they’d had some offense. It would have been nice if they had won a game by 7 to 3 or 8 to 2 now and then instead of by one run and then bringing in the big three to close it down.
Good pitching is nice but it doesn’t score runs. If you have to trade a good prospect to get a good position player, do it. We need offense but offering Milo Swartz for a Babe Ruth type hitter won’t hack it.
Oh yeah, most hitting coaches aren’t “good hitting coaches.” There are only two or three in the game who are worth a damn.
I'm with ATL teams (Always)
January 19th, 2012
4:17 pm
How much raise did the Braves gave to existing players? I think we saved $5M from Lowe, $6.5M for KK, $5M for Mclouth and $2-3M for Sherill & Linebrink. Even after raises given Braves may have in excess of $10M.
Burned
January 19th, 2012
4:17 pm
childrojc – they may be a better team on paper but the pressure and carry over from the collapse could be huge. Its the same guys in 2012 that were their in September, no new guys to take some of the pressure off. Could be a long season.
Bobby Hill
January 19th, 2012
4:19 pm
I was pushing hard for a Prado trade for a LF bat and backup 3B acquisition earlier in the off season. We’ll never know for sure, but it looks like Wren never got a solid offer. I’m happy Wren didn’t make a move, just to make a move, but somebody still has to play LF when Chipper is out, or Prado has the day off. There’s got be close to 500 AB’s available for a 4th outfielder considering the time Chipper and the outfielders are likely to miss over the course of the season. Giving those AB to Diaz or Constanza is a mistake.
I'm with ATL teams (Always)
January 19th, 2012
4:20 pm
Hello child! You forgot Vizcaino
Hillbilly D
January 19th, 2012
4:22 pm
The worst reason for doing something is because some other team just did something. The Len Barker trade was a response to the Dodgers getting Honeycutt, you might recall.
I know people who still have night terrors about that deal.
Mitchell
January 19th, 2012
4:22 pm
Besides, he has no reason to do anything.
We have an All Star at every position. That includes Jack Wilson.
We have two of the best rookies in baseball, the best bullpen in baseball, the best offensive catcher in baseball, the best base stealer in baseball, the best offensive second baseman in baseball, a Hall of Fame third baseman and starting rotation with several heralded top prospects.
That leaves us with the question of why this team can’t win, can’t keep players healthy and can’t overcome injuries or find anybody to be a true leader on the field in the clutch.
Any thoughts, Mark?
Hillbilly D
January 19th, 2012
4:23 pm
MB
Your blog is eating my posts again.
Mark (another one)
January 19th, 2012
4:24 pm
I appreciate you sticking your neck out for Wren, and I agree.
A full season of Bourn in CF and leading off is an improvement. I believe Heyward will come back this season and provide power and defense in RF. Prado will not get another staph infection. Chipper in a bad year will be in the top 3 for offensive third basemen and he can still field. Uggla will not have a half season slump again. Freeman was 2nd for ROY. McCann and Ross have the plate.
The questions going into the off season were SS, bench depth, bullpen depth and could they get a young power hitter for the future in LF (when Prado moves into third). With the list above, Pasternicky will play SS and have Wilson behind him. That’s ten of the 14 position players. I see Hinskie and Diaz as strong bets and probably Hicks. That only leaves one bench position open.
The eleven pitchers will be more interesting. There are 22 listed on the 40 man roster, and I don’t know who has options left, so I won’t speculate. I will bet that Wren will move someone from this part of the roster during spring training to make room and stock up for the future. This may also be the source of some power off the bench. However, both the other teams and the Braves will want to see how these players perform before making moves.
slydog
January 19th, 2012
4:24 pm
Let’s see, Pasternickey vs Reyes or H. Ramirez? Yeah, Right. By the time Pasternicky is done goofing one-hoppers, Chipper will be retired or virtually ineffective, McCann’s knees will start to wear, Prado’s average talent will shine more, Heyward… we don’t know, Freeman…. at least a 2nd or 3rd year slump and then who knows? Yeah sure, they will have young arms that will get better in a year or two. But then what? We’re gonna pitch people to death again? Stop this insanity.
Oddibe McDowell
January 19th, 2012
4:25 pm
I disagree Mark. I think it’s easier to do nothing than to make the tough decisions necessary to improve the team and show the fans that the organization is truly focused on winning championships. How can the fans get behind a team who is lead by a guy that was at the helm during the one of the most historic collapses in baseball history? The Red Sox fired a manager that won TWO championships in 6 years. Why? Because they knew that they had to wipe the slate clean. I’m telling you, this team will go absolutely nowhere with Fredi now, he has been forever tainted because he will ALWAYS be remembered for the collapse, even if he wins a championship (which of course we know he won’t because Atlanta teams don’t win those).
slydog
January 19th, 2012
4:30 pm
If the Braves are serious about winning, then this should have been done: Bench Chipper Jones or release him if he sulks about it (they all get over it), secure the trade of Adam Jones (apparently, Wren can never close a deal except to overpay… pitchers!!!), sign either Reyes or Prince. At least ONE of these moves would have sent the team and it’s fan base a message. And as far as Reyes is concerned, its one thing to not want the guy and it’s another to let your rival get him. He got $12 mil, same as Dan Uggla, but at least he’s a game-changer.
Rowsdower
January 19th, 2012
4:30 pm
I always get a chuckle out of reading comments from so called fans that can’t even spell the player’s names. It brightens my day.
Mark (another one)
January 19th, 2012
4:32 pm
If you want a team that doesn’t have questionmarks going into the season, watch … Every team has questionmarks. Let’s see if Reyes has an Uggla like slump for the first half of next year. Will it happen? Who knows? That’s baseball. That’s sports. That’s the fun of following and rooting for a team.
Here’s the other game. MB stuck his neck out stating he agreed with Wren’s lack of moves this off season. That’s got to start a debate. Who knows if their both right? I don’t. I agree with them but we won’t know until the games are played.
As for the lack of attendance, that isn’t much of an indicator in Atlanta. Even when we were consistently winning the division, there were empty seats. Call it the economy or whatever, Atlanta doesn’t fill the stadium like some other cities. But, that’s a different story.
DawgDad
January 19th, 2012
4:32 pm
You make a lot of good points, Mark, but then you jump to conclusions that just don’t fit the facts. Prime example: “Yes, the Braves had a historically bad month, but that’s not the same as being a bad team.” Really. From my 50 years experience watching MLB I had NO PROBLEM whatsoever understanding the Braves were an epically BAD team in September, when it counted.
Fact is, we don’t know where the Braves stand right now. What happened in September SHOULD shake the psyche of the team, otherwise it’s heartless. The competition cleaned up on the Braves at last check, and they figure to be as good (Phillies) or significantly improved (Mets excluded). The Braves: Hudson is down early, Hanson and JJ are coming back from serious injury, the other starters have only proven they struggle to get out of the fifth inning and couldn’t bring home the bacon when called on in September. The outfield is the same group that didn’t get it done last year, the big money guys on the infield are still draining payroll far in excess of production, McCann left with questionable health and eyesight, AND there is no proven everyday major league shortstop (Wilson no longer filling that bill). The lineup doesn’t fit together well, there’s nobody to “carry the team” in the middle, and they are duck soup for ANY lefthander. The best hitter is the catcher – that in itself is a major problem waiting to happen.
I’ll give Wren a hand – a hand full of unused playoff tickets. The Braves have a LOT to prove, to themselves and the fans.
As for Prado returning to all-star form: He was an all-star INFIELDER. His production as an all-star infielder likely wouldn’t hit the radar for outfielders.
Mitchell
January 19th, 2012
4:34 pm
meh
January 19th, 2012
4:02 pm
it feels like every year we’re saying if so and so bounces back and if this other guy gets healthy than we’ll be awesome.
It doesn’t just feel like that. It is like that.
Rowsdower
January 19th, 2012
4:34 pm
@slydog – And who do you propose plays 3rd? Prado? Then who plays LF?
Wren hasn’t overpaid for any player we got in trade. You name me one trade where he overpaid. Baltimore wanted a King’s Ransom for Jones. Was not a good deal.
Reyes is a clubhouse killer and is injury prone. Nice investment.
Prince is a 1B and soon to be DH. Freddie Freeman is our 1B for the next decade. No reason to blow $200M on Prince.
The message Wren is sending is that this team is very good and had a bad month. If a few guys get back to their normal level of production this team is going a long way. Oh, and he jettisoned bLowe which is the right message for me.
slydog
January 19th, 2012
4:35 pm
If I can’t spell the name, then what does that mean? They must suck. I can spell Jordan, Nowitzki, and Pujols just fine thank you….lol.
fred
January 19th, 2012
4:36 pm
Not only did he not make any moves that will make this a better team, he did not do anything to improve the fans interest or confidence in this team. Last year was a bust in attendance, even prior to the collapse. It will go down again this year unless something dramatic happens.
Ralph
January 19th, 2012
4:36 pm
I won’t go over my top 10 list of IF’s because you all know what they are already but, what IF most of those IF’s don’t happen?
Heisenberg
January 19th, 2012
4:37 pm
@slydog, Reyes is off the market in case you had not heard. Unless you are referring to Jo Jo not Jose.
slydog
January 19th, 2012
4:37 pm
Jones in LF and Prado at 3rd. If you get Prince, move Freeman to 3rd or LF. Does that make sense? I know it does.
Brave Hokie
January 19th, 2012
4:38 pm
The Braves are just fine as constituted in Sept 2011…
Underachieving, pampered, little women who run and hide at the 1st sign of a challenge or adversity.
& it will never change ~ just the names on the jerseys.
slydog
January 19th, 2012
4:39 pm
BTW , you are right, he never overpays in a trade and it isn’t wise in most cases. But he definitely overpays for average to below average pitching. Proof is in the pudding. Until further notice, he deserves no round of applause.
Mitchell
January 19th, 2012
4:39 pm
As for the lack of attendance, that isn’t much of an indicator in Atlanta. Even when we were consistently winning the division, there were empty seats. Call it the economy or whatever, Atlanta doesn’t fill the stadium like some other cities. But, that’s a different story.
Have you failed to notice a slight attendance jump for games in late September and October of the past two years?
It helps if they’re actually playing for something worth showing up for.