Tech’s D still isn’t great, but dumping Al Groh isn’t the answer
To date, Al Groh is 0-for-2 regarding the stenciled objective. (AJC photo by Johnny Crawford)
I’d keep Al Groh. Georgia Tech’s defense hasn’t gotten great with him in charge, but it has shown incremental improvement. It’s 46th nationally in total defense, which beats the 64th of last season, when Groh had just arrived, and the 54th of 2009, when Dave Wommack was on his way out.
With seven starters scheduled to return, next season could be even better. But that’s not a given, and there’s a basic reason why: Tech’s incumbent defenders aren’t all that great. Julian Burnett is a good player. Jeremiah Attaochu is a good player. Rod Sweeting is a good player. That’s about it.
Tech’s defensive failings aren’t akin to Georgia’s under Willie Martinez. Back then, Georgia had conspicuously gifted players but yielded increasingly lousy results. I’m not sure any coordinator — John Chavis, Bud Foster, Todd Grantham, Nick Saban/Kirby Smart — could turn these Jackets into a top 10 defense. And here’s where we look harder at the stats.
Tech is 30th in pass defense but is tied for 70th against the run. The first, I submit, is more a reflection of scheme; the second is a function of getting shoved backward. Two of Tech’s four losses — against Virginia and Virginia Tech — were a product of being overwhelmed at the line of scrimmage. The loss to Miami had less to do with defensive lapses than special-teams howlers, and the loss to Georgia wasn’t a total wipeout. A good Bulldogs team managed 380 yards in 2011; in 2010, a mediocre one got 425.
The trouble with Tech isn’t that its players are out of position but that in-position players don’t do what’s required. The Jackets are 92nd in third-down defense, 79th in sacks, 99th in tackles for losses. Some of that can be traced to the coordinator, but only some. At every level of football, players have to make plays. Tech doesn’t have many playmakers.
It was different under Wommack. The Jackets had Derrick Morgan and Morgan Burnett, NFL-caliber talents, and still couldn’t stop anybody. In 2009, six opponents scored 30 or more points against a Tech team that won the ACC championship. This season only four opponents broke 30 on the Jackets, and two of those — Virginia Tech and Georgia — had a pronounced manpower advantage.
To suggest that Groh has rendered himself a Tech fixture would be overstating. He hasn’t, and that’s the reason we’re having this discussion. He signed on for two seasons, and Year 2 will end in the Sun Bowl on New Year’s Eve. The belief around Tech is that Groh will be asked to stay, and that would be the better course.
To change schemes yet again would force Tech’s defenders to embark on yet another shakedown cruise. They’re just getting used to Groh’s 3-4 after Wommack’s 4-3, and they’re better off than they were two years ago. There’s no guarantee they’ll ever be as good as they need to be, but to shuffle coordinators would all but guarantee they won’t maximize potential in 2012.
Oh, and I say again: Better recruiting would help. Two years later, there’s not another Derrick Morgan in sight.
By Mark Bradley
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300 comments Add your comment
BigTimeTechFan
December 20th, 2011
11:22 am
Tech has lined up a lot of talent on defense, all the starters leaving are being replaced by players who have seen the field a lot. Next year’s defense will be really good.
1. Fred Holton will replace Rashaad Reid, Holton is a beast and was team leader type on defense
2. TJ Barnes will replace L Walls, Barnes really started to come on 2nd half of the year, at 6′7″ 350 is really starting to take on blocks well.
3. Dieke 6′6″ 270 and Cummings 6′4″ 270 played a lot behind Peters and did well, I see no drop off as Peters was never a impact player other then having a few flashes
4. Sylvester will be replaced by Watts and or Monroe who have played a lot, but Menocal liked very good in the little playing time he got when Attaochu was hurt
Add L Young and J Thomas, both future NFL players
Weakness is depth at Nose Tackle, youth in depth at DB
Offense will be strong with all 2 deep OL returning and a couple of real good players behind the two deep that will push for playing time, Braun, Joe, Chamberlain
Key will be QB.
gt4ever
December 20th, 2011
11:22 am
GTBob,
It’s NOT about academics!!! It’s about coaching! Specifically recruiting…
Steven
December 20th, 2011
11:23 am
Al Groh has got to go!!! He’s totally incompetent; that’s why his alma mater fired him. As for his “scheme”, his “Swiss Cheese” defense is never going to be any good, regardless of the players. Yes, we need better players, but first, we need a better defensive coordinator — and anybody, including Dave Wommack, is better than Groh. THWG — that also stands for “To Hell With Groh”.
GT Dude
December 20th, 2011
11:25 am
@WnE I am sure that you know that Cal-Berk is a University with a wide range of majors with varying levels of difficulty and the administration has a significant leeway on acceptance criteria. Not in all cases, but typically JUCOs will not qualify for admission to Tech, but could easily be admitted to Cal-Berk and succeed in one of their less challenging majors.
I am not against looking to the JUCO field, but admission requirements at Tech probably rule out more than 98% so you end up looking in the 2% of eligble player for that one super stud. Odds are just not there.
Reality
December 20th, 2011
11:29 am
Keep Groh.
The main issue is that Tech has a hard time recruiting the “big uglies”. We do need the 300+ pound guy on defense and Tech seems to have a hard time recruiting them on defense.
That type of player isn’t needed on the offensive side of the ball with PJ’s offense.
Missing the “big uglies” we will continue to lose to the teams that are bigger and stronger such as LSU, Virginia, Virginia Tech, etc.
It’s all about recruiting.
GTBob
December 20th, 2011
11:29 am
The Business Admin . program at GT is not the only Academic program at GT, S. Hill is majoring in Sociology according to his bio on Ramblingwreck. com.
That’s weird because Sociology is not a major offered at GT. Either way, Calc 1, Calc 2, and two semesters of lab science are required of all transfers, not just Business Admin majors.
Reality
December 20th, 2011
11:30 am
WnE is a total douche. Never respond to it.
ahsoisee
December 20th, 2011
11:31 am
The biggest fallacy in football statements: “Players win games, not coaches”. The absolute truth to the matter is that good coaches will win anywhere with the recruits they get. The winning starts first with the coach and his ability to fit players into many different schemes on both offense and defense which utilzes the existing talent on campus.
Most all players are attracted to football programs because of the schools ability to win and the coaches ability to win. As a coach showcases his coaching ability at any given school, the better recruits begin taking notice and come to that school. Of course, the good coach can then adapt his team to new and better systems using better talent. The good coach is not only a winner with poor material, but becomes a legend with better material due to his genius at winning.
A good coach can beat you with his players or beat his team with the other team’s players. It is his genius at using each player’s ability meshed with the concept of the manpower at his disposal. The good coach is adaptable and does not try to push a system that does not match his individual players’ strengths.
Look at some of the better coaches around the nation for years and years that won at schools where they had poor recruiting only to have great seasons year after year, and, finally they get a job at a top college and continue winning even bigger. It is reasonable to suggest that Boise State, Houston, TCU, etal, do not outrecruit GT, yet win big every year. They not only dominate their conferences, but beat Alabama (Boise State), and UGA (Boise State) and other powers when they play them out of conference.
Some of the legendary coaches started winning at colleges with no recruiting advantage and wound up at larger colleges and then became legends because they had the genius and better recruiting, however, they got to that position by their coaching genius rather that having top recruits.
Tech’s best days were with Bobby Dodd, and he never had a recruiting edge on anyone. He was a master at getting the most from each recruit and building different systems around the type of athletes during his tenure. However, Dodd and all good coaches were aware that the best teams were built around providing the best defense and aligning that defense according to the talent for that particular year.
The Old Man
Not good at all
December 20th, 2011
11:32 am
Tech’s defensive ranking would be a lot worse if their offence didn’t hold the ball 90% of the game. If Tech’s defense as strong as Georgia’s could you imagine how fast their opponents would wear down. GT gets a 15 play drive then the D gets a 3 and out and it start over again. Opposing defenses would be dead tired in the second quarter. Then we come back to reality and cry because it was just a dream.
GT Man
December 20th, 2011
11:32 am
Dump Groh !!!!!! and while at it dump Johnson. Thats why passing teams destroy us !!! Our defense practices against our high school offense all the time, they dont know where to stand or cover against passing teams.
GT Fan
December 20th, 2011
11:34 am
PJ recruits like he’s still at Ga. Southern or Navy, small and quick—thats why Georgia, VPI and Miami will always beat us. If he’s going to run that offense, then get Oregons playbook.
WnE
December 20th, 2011
11:35 am
See for yourself GTBob:
http://www.ramblinwreck.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/hill_stephen00.html
headley lamar
December 20th, 2011
11:37 am
Georgia fans universally agree that Groh should be kept and signed to as long an extension as possible.
GT
December 20th, 2011
11:38 am
Watch TCU through the years. The recruiting of defensive players there was double stars at best. It still is not a Georgia type class never has been. What these guys do is get out and look at players. They don’t let a recruiting hot shot tell them some kid from Columbus is to die for, they find the kid themselves. TCU led with their defense, came out of nowhere to be a perennial top 10er, and they can beat a lot of SEC teams today, including Georgia. LSU got the Honey Badger on the wavier wire, he was on no major radar. These old coaches just want to coach they don’t want to recruit. Erk Russel was an exception. He loved to recruit. He would take a high school quarterback and make a defensive end out of him, just by watching the kid play in high school he knew what he wanted and what the kid could do. It is not the scheme it is the player true enough but the coach decides which player plays where and that on defense is huge. A lot of the kids that are good instead of great may just be having to play in the wrong position to fill a roster. Al Groh is just playing the card dealt to him, now recruiting or thinking outside the box very much leaving that to the “young guys”. Richt is just reading scouting reports and occasionally getting off campus, not particularly working hard. Until last year he was even leaving the advance learning to his assistance doing God knows what in the summers. If you want to see how it should be done watch Alabama or LSU, they are all over it with their coaches not their alumni. Even Arkansas has shown what a good coach can do.
GTBob
December 20th, 2011
11:41 am
WnE, I already looked at it. Someone made a mistake. Sociology is not a major at GT. There is a minor in Sociology however. He is probably majoring in HTS.
Ramblin Man
December 20th, 2011
11:42 am
Slydog,
No I was not comparing schedules just asking a serious question. Some of my UGA friends are impressed while others think he should have done more in his second season with the talent on board and the teams they faced.
Dawgfan,
I agree UGA played great D in the first half then got blown out in the second because LSU made adjustemnts and played a great second half all season long. Neither Bobo or Grantham were able to make adjustments in that game. LSU is known for thier D and special teams so one half of defensive football is not a great stat against them.
WnE,
I don’t say it’s all academics as far as how hard it is it’s the majors offered. Most top recruits do not want the class load required or the majors offered. GT needs liberal art degrees to compete in the football world today and the board of regents will never let that happen. Also stop using Stanford in your arguments they have already been outed in offering special classes for athletes.
vcki
December 20th, 2011
11:43 am
I’m buying seasons tickets!! GO JACKETS!
Blondie
December 20th, 2011
11:44 am
One word, to Johnson: RECRUITMENT.
BS Patrol
December 20th, 2011
11:48 am
All you doggies who think we should fire CPJ have never suffered coaches like Lewis, Curry, Fulcher,and Gailey. This comedic group would make Ray Goff look like Vince Lombardi. So forgive us for being gun shy. We have also been cursed with completely incompetent AD’s. As for Tech’s defense,D-minus.
But Why Not?
December 20th, 2011
11:49 am
I keep hearing about recruiting lapses, etc. If Gailey could put together a top 15 class why can’t CPJ put together at least a top 35 class? Shouldn’t the head coach be held accountable for all aspects of the program that relate to success? I don’t think Tech fans should be satisfied with mid 40s ranking in talent year after year and then somehow wonder why Tech is not a top calibre team. Yeah the coaching makes a difference, but talent shouldn’t be diminished either, else you’re just fantasizing IMHO.
Doofus
December 20th, 2011
11:52 am
Yes, please keep Groh and Coarch Pajama Pants too! 9 out of 10 and 17 of 21! Please, please keep them!
headley lamar
December 20th, 2011
11:53 am
GT needs liberal art degrees to compete in the football world today and the board of regents will never let that happen. Also stop using Stanford in your arguments they have already been outed in offering special classes for athletes.
Ahh the academic crutch. Its the first thing a Tech fan leans on.
Listen the academics at Tech aren’t all that great. Trust me I know some Tech grads and they aren’t all that bright.
Tech also does have special classes for football players.
Its why 98 percent of the football team is majoring in … ahem …. “Management”
Wonder why that is LOL ???
headley lamar
December 20th, 2011
11:56 am
Shouldn’t the head coach be held accountable for all aspects of the program that relate to success?
Not CPJ. He acts tuff and tells them what they want to hear.
The whole retard thing and offending blue collar Americans who work at Wal – Mart.
Well they just eat that stuff up. CPJ is like Newt. He knows how to throw the base red meat.
That and winning 8 games or so in an awful conference is enough for most Tech fans I guess.
Ex Jacket fan
December 20th, 2011
11:59 am
They need to dump Johnson and get a new offense. The hokey offensive scheme will get them nowhere against good defenses.
GT
December 20th, 2011
12:01 pm
Nothing wrong with the offense. Surely you can find one kid in a student body of thousands that can kick a football into the end zone. Special teams at Tech are awful.
I noticed our defense started digressing during and after we played Va. The ex assistant coaches knew something about the Groh scheme as did ex assistant Al Golden. Once it was on film everybody had a hay day at our expense.
GTBob
December 20th, 2011
12:04 pm
If Gailey could put together a top 15 class why can’t CPJ put together at least a top 35 class?
Gailey had one class that high (on scout). Every other class that Gailey had was ranked lower then every class CPJ has had so far.
GTBob
December 20th, 2011
12:05 pm
Tech also does have special classes for football players.
Enlighten us headley. Name the classes at GT that were created for football players.
jarvis
December 20th, 2011
12:08 pm
Do we have the statistical differences between this year’s 46th and last year’s 64th?
Not the rankings, but the actual points allowed and yards allowed divided by the number of games played. Is the difference that significant?
LawDawg
December 20th, 2011
12:09 pm
GT really cannot dump Groh. To have the 46th best defense on a team with Division II-level talent is actually fairly impressive. The reason Tech is never going to win anything under Johnson is because the man cannot recruit. At all. Obviously, with the embarrassing offensive scheme, you are not going to recruit top OL (since pass blocking is what the NFL notices), QBs or WRs, but they should at least be able to recruit an occasional 4- or 5-star defensive player since they play a pro-style 3-4, yet the talent level is not there. Bad recruiting, bad team.
crackbaby
December 20th, 2011
12:10 pm
Agree with Mark – it’s scary, this makes two or three times this month!
Tech’s secondary has talented athletes at every position thanks to Coach Groh. Jackets need more DL and LB playmakers.
IMO – Coach Groh’s D was far more aggressive in 2011 than 2010. With modestly better performance on 3rd downs, the D will be much improved. Hope Louis Young gets back on the active roster.
Go Jackets!
Ramblin Man
December 20th, 2011
12:10 pm
headley you are so stupid. The Management degree you laugh at is rated above Schools like UGA who have a business department, how sad is that? It’s not a crutch it’s a fact. GT has lost out on recruits that have said they like GT but wanted a specific major that GT does not offer. As far as trusting you why would I? You spew nothing but lies and hate while living on a GT blog.
If Slive gets his way then maybe SEC fans will see why some fan bases say academics matter. How would UGA fare if they did not allow an over 90% special admit rate? How will UGA recruit if Slive takes away those special admits and takes the GPA to a 2.0 base? Oh wait that won’t happen because when he proposed it the SEC coaches and ADs went nuts. Face facts the SEC will always dominate football because academics mean nothing to them and sadly other conferences are now doing the same. Talk to some of your former players that have useless degrees and can do nothing with them and are not prepared for a life outside football with people handing them soemthing.
Russ, the Temporary Mascot
December 20th, 2011
12:12 pm
With his incendiary comments CPJ can forget recruiting at Walmart. That leaves the fertile recruiting ground to UGA and will ensure that they continue to rund this stait. While it’s been pointed out that IC is only 18, that seems true of all freshmen. Why is it that IC is given a pass for his youth? I think being 18 means he’s half way to 36 and should know better. On the other hand, Groh is half way to 134.
jarvis
December 20th, 2011
12:12 pm
@Ramblin Man, but your graduation rate is the worst in your conference. So they fail on the field and in the classroom?
gt4ever
December 20th, 2011
12:12 pm
Steven,
So much anger…. Groh is a GREAT coach… It sounds like you have never played the game or have a clue as to what your talking about… In any case, we must recruit better… Defense is like a second thought to this Head coach…. His offense, which is supposed to be the end all to everything
crackbaby
December 20th, 2011
12:12 pm
@LawDawg – That “embarrassing” offensive scheme is one of the best in all of college football.
mgdawg
December 20th, 2011
12:13 pm
As a dawgs fan I had many people tell me this when willie was the coordinator, that UGA didn’t have the players then that they had when vangorder was there. Here was my response. First, who chooses what players to recruit, richt and johnson are both offensive guys and I think they are the same in the fact that the defense belongs to the DC. Maybe tech doesn’t get the players they want as much as UGA does, but that has always been the case. Second, rarely are freshman that good or make that big of an impact, meaning they have to be coached up. Now I understand some players just aren’t as physically gifted as others, but these coaches make a bunch of money to coach the players. So my response is if you don’t have the same amount of playmakers, whose fault is that? Some blame lies on the players, but a good bit of blame also lies on the coach.
LawDawg
December 20th, 2011
12:16 pm
crackbaby, your name and your comment make sense together.
Putting up a lot of rushing yards while losing does not signal “best” to me. If you take out the Kansas game, Tech most certainly did not have one of the “best” offenses in the country statistically, and even leaving Kansas in, that offense does not pass the eye test.
Ramblin Man
December 20th, 2011
12:16 pm
For the few UGA fans on here that actually went to college or even UGA I am not bashing UGA academics overall. I have three family members that went to UGA that took actual classes and real majors and are doing or have done well in life. My brother thought it was funny when he attended there that most football players had tutors for basic classes because they were lost and most had no grasp of basic math and english.
Nativebird
December 20th, 2011
12:16 pm
You’re right. Keep Groh, dump Paul Johnson.
mgdawg
December 20th, 2011
12:18 pm
Ramblin man, do you really think a D1 BCS conference football player when they are being recruited is thinking about a major? I’ve worked with athletes at the high school and college level. They may have a major in mind, but that is in the back of their mind. Why tech can’t get the good recruits is because they run an offense that no one runs in the pros, meaning offensively it doesn’t help with you getting drafted. Defensively, from what I’ve heard, paul johnson doesn’t really care about those recruits and just takes the leftovers. Richt is an offensive guy, but do you think he ignored the recruting of john jenkins? I heard he went to the doctor with jarvis jones when he was having tests run on his neck and getting cleared. You can blame your head coach for recruiting.
GTBob
December 20th, 2011
12:18 pm
Do we have the statistical differences between this year’s 46th and last year’s 64th?
Total yards:
2011: 4334
2010: 4831
Yards per play:
2011: 5.5
2010: 5.7
Points allowed:
2011: 309
2010: 328
Sacks:
2011: 20
2010: 17
Interceptions:
2011: 13
2010: 8
Ramblin Man
December 20th, 2011
12:21 pm
Jarvis,
I agree and that number comes from Gailey trying to find just football players and CPJ tries to find both. I know the man, he is not going to recruit a kid that has no shot in the classroom. He may take a gamble on a kid, but you know when talking with somebody and checking if they have what it takes. If you research GT you will see that the graduation rate for football is close with the average student body.
gt4ever
December 20th, 2011
12:22 pm
The offense is GREAT when there playing not so good competition… It’s Not so good when we play good competition…. I mean, the proof is in the schedule… Anybody with 1/2 a brain can see that when we play good competition our vaunted offense struggles…
USMC Dawg
December 20th, 2011
12:24 pm
I am a Georgia Bulldog fan who has tremendous respect for the Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets, BUT I have to say that Al Groh seems to be a nice man, but For whatever reason, I believe Al Groh’s best coaching days are behind him.
GET A NEW DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR!
I root for the Jackets when they are not playing the Dawgs, and I respect Coach Paul Johnson and his style of coaching, but…
GO DAWGS!
GTBob
December 20th, 2011
12:26 pm
Defensively, from what I’ve heard, paul johnson doesn’t really care about those recruits and just takes the leftovers.
This is garbage. GT’s highest rated recruits since CPJ has been here were all defensive players.
PANSYTECHIESCHEDUAL
December 20th, 2011
12:27 pm
WHEN YOU PLAY A WEAK SISTER SCHEDUAL AND THEN HAVE TO PLAY A TEAM THAT IS GOOD YOU WILL ALL WAYS LOSE AND YOUR SCHEDUAL HAD A LOSING RECORD THIS YEAR. YOU DONT BECOME GOOD BY PLAYING WEAK TEAMS AS YOU DROP TO THIER LEVEL AND WHEN THE GOING GET ROUGH THEY FOLD THIER TENT AND LOSE THE GAME. YOU CAN’T PLAY SORRY TEAM AND GET BETTER AND PEOPLE WILL NOT COME TO SEE YOU PLAY. THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE TO GIVE AWAY FREE FOOD TO SELL TICKETS.
DRad Fan 2
December 20th, 2011
12:28 pm
Keep him. We are out-maned not out-coached. Grantham has ton of more talent to work with. It is really insulting to think anybody could do any better with what we have,
Mike
December 20th, 2011
12:28 pm
Mark, I think your right. The worst thing Tech could do right now is get rid of Groh. Recruiting is the biggest issue. Look at what Grantham has done installing the 3-4 at UGA during the same time period. UGA graduated all their interior lineman the year before he took over. Now they have two massive DTs in the middle around 350 each and a huge set of LBs and DEs around them, many with NFL potential.
I’ve said it before, the hire of Johnson was a big risk because of recruiting. Could Johnson recruit the kind of players necessary to consistently beat the tougher teams on their schedule? As you pointed out, the answer has been no. In two years of mostly his players, he has one win over such competition (Clemson this year).
Ramblin Man
December 20th, 2011
12:31 pm
mgdawg,
Yes, many kids know or have an idea of what they want and it has hurt us. Plus unlike schools that offer mutiple liberal art degrees you can’t skate by the first year or two at GT and take classes that can be used for multiple degrees. How do explain the same recruiting ranking numbers by Gailey and O’Leary minus one class. By the way three out of that 07 class never made it past thier first year. Seriously take a few minutes and go to scout.com and look back from 02-11 you might be surprised. Don’t look at class ranking look at the classes themselves.
Coach Johnson is the perfect option!
December 20th, 2011
12:32 pm
Paul Johnson is certainly the perfect fit for the offense, although for passing situation he should put in the shotgun formation just like Georgia Southern does. As for the Defense, Al Groh’s 3-4 scheme JUST WON’T WORK FOR TECH. The 3-4 works for teams who can recruit multiple 5 star recruits EVERY SINGLE YEAR. A good example would be Nick Saban’s Alabama team. Another good example would be Mark Richt’s Georgia team.
The point is that instead of wasting time trying to get the 3-4 to work at Tech Al Groh who is a great coach, and I mean a GREAT coach should understand that the 3-4 scheme is not the right option for a team like Georgia Tech, if we go to the 4-3 not only will that help us defend the run but we have a pretty good secondary in: Rod Sweeting, Jemea Thomas, Louis Young, and Jamal Golden could be a good player as well.
More, if we go to the 4-3 we would likely start Julian Burnett or Quayshawn (spelling?) Nealy, or even the talented Jabari-Hunt Days. And at the LOLB or ROLB spot we could have Jeremiah Attaouchu (spelling).
In short, we would definitely be better defensively with a great coach in Al Groh and the 4-3!
GO JACKETS BEAT UTAH!!