Mixed AAU message: McCray to UCLA, UGA players in trouble
Jarvis Jones, then at Carver-Columbus, was one of our Super 11. (AJC photo by Jason Getz)
Who says you can’t get an education while school’s out of session? This summer, we in Georgia are seeing both the power and the peril of AAU basketball.
The power: UCLA, the school of Wooden and Abdul-Jabbar and Walton and 11 NCAA titles, hired Korey McCray away from the Atlanta Celtics to become an assistant coach. Why? Because UCLA believes McCray can be an effective recruiter.
The peril: The collegiate eligibility of two Georgia players — Jarvis Jones, projected as a starting linebacker, and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, the biggest Bulldog hoops recruit in nearly two decades — has been jeopardized by their ties to the Georgia Blazers, an AAU team based in Columbus.
Speaking in April, Korey McCray said: “AAU guys get such a bad rap.” And it’s true that AAU ball has come to be seen as too powerful. AAU teams can and do hammer out their own shoe deals: The Atlanta Celtics are sponsored by adidas, the Georgia Blazers by Nike. AAU teams operate outside the bounds of high school associations, existing in the shadowy (but lucrative) realm of summer basketball.
Nearly every prospect of any worth plays AAU ball. (When he was a high schooler in Little Rock, Ark., Joe Johnson commuted to Atlanta to play for the Celtics.) College coaches often bemoan, usually off the record, the sway AAU teams have come to hold over recruits, but no big-time program can afford to ignore the AAU. If a school wants to land top-shelf talent, it must take a dip in the pool of summer ball. Ergo, McCray to UCLA.
McCray saw the UCLA job not just as a victory for himself but for the AAU Way. “I would embrace it [the label of being the guy from an AAU club],” he said. “I’ve been in basketball my whole life. I have my Masters in adult education. I love summer basketball … If that’s how they’re going to label me, I hope to represent AAU basketball very well.”
Korey McCray, Bruin staffer. (UCLA photo)
But now, through the reporting of Andy Bitter of the Columbus Ledger-Enquirer, we see the flip side. Writes Bitter:
Police records show that an unauthorized bank account controlled by [former Columbus Parks and Recreation director Tony] Adams and [assistant Herman] Porter was used to pay for flights to and from Los Angeles for Jarvis Jones, a two-sport star at Carver High School who played football for one season at the University of Southern California, and for the cell phone bill of the mother of Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, a five-star shooting guard from Greenville High School.
Georgia has referred the matter to the NCAA. The usual penalty for a player found to have received an improper benefit is to make monetary restitution and to a serve a suspension. Georgia fans know the drill all too well: Last season receiver A.J. Green had to sit out the first four games after it was found he sold his Independence Bowl jersey.
Possible football ramification: The Bulldogs, as you’ve heard, face a put-up-or-shut-up season that commences with games against Boise State and South Carolina. If Jones couldn’t play, he’d be missed.
Possible basketball ramification: Georgia lost its two best players, Trey Thompkins and Travis Leslie, a year early to the NBA draft. The belief around the team is that the freshman Caldwell-Pope might have to lead the 2011-2012 team in scoring. If he has to sit out, he’ll be hugely missed.
Yes, it’s unfair to use one case as a smear against all AAU programs: The Atlanta Celtics are not the Georgia Blazers. But the image of AAU basketball has taken on a fairly negative connotation, and any bit of bad news becomes just another brick in the wall.
In Westwood, Korey McCray has a chance to strike a blow for himself and for AAU coaches everywhere. The reports from Columbus, alas, give us some indication of the perception he’ll be fighting.
By Mark Bradley
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77 comments Add your comment
headley lamar
June 30th, 2011
11:14 am
First
headley lamar
June 30th, 2011
11:15 am
And having watched Wilson complete 28 of 41 passes for 368 yards and three touchdowns against Georgia Tech last fall, I can tell you he’s pretty darn good.
My grandmother could do that against Tech and she is almost 80.
Mark Bradley
June 30th, 2011
11:16 am
Kudos, headley.
Hankie Aron
June 30th, 2011
11:24 am
headley, comments like that are jovial and junior varsity
Hankie Aron
June 30th, 2011
11:25 am
I will take the silver lamp for 2nd place though for my trouble. Just missed a kudos bar
juvenal
June 30th, 2011
11:26 am
just wish kids shot free throws better…..doubt headley could complete 1 pass against any D1 D……
me
June 30th, 2011
11:27 am
Jordan Adams is a donut shy of earning a Jenny Craig endorsement. I wouldn’t say Coach AAU getting him to a dead program is much of a land. Shaq Goodwin isn’t going to UCLA.
where do we go from here?
June 30th, 2011
11:27 am
It will be just fine we will get same deal as AUBURN HA HA HA
JayD
June 30th, 2011
11:32 am
Not sure why Jones would be in trouble with the NCAA. When he received money or plane fare – He was in college, playing a different sport – Wouldn’t the loans or gifts just be coming from an friend?? And how would he know what kind or who’s bank account it came from?? I think his matter is a police matter, not an NCAA matter at all.
Sam Robards, Dawg Fan
June 30th, 2011
11:33 am
Just use the Ohio State case if they try and suspend Jones and blow the NCAA out of the water. Who knew the fallout could kick in this fast?
Thomas
June 30th, 2011
11:33 am
Jarvis Jones’ fingernails creep me out.
Highlands
June 30th, 2011
11:35 am
If Georgia played in the Big Ten, we’d get to pick and choose which games Jarvis will miss. New Mexico State and Coastal Carolina come to mind…
puppykiller
June 30th, 2011
11:36 am
Yet another THuga player in trouble with the NCAA again. Mmm mmm mmmm mmmmm….
My kid...
June 30th, 2011
11:38 am
…played AAU ball on one of those teams “other than the Celtics and Blazers” and all of their sponsorships. Heck, all the other teams’ players were in awe when those guys (at age U12, U14, U16 and U18) showed up on Friday’s with all their Nike or adidas sponored warm-ups and shoes and bags, etc. Heck, even as a parent I was awestruck the first time I saw them arrive – and I was admittedly a little envious that my kid was not good enough to play on that team.
And, those guys can really play – but the question is, Is it really fair to those players? ‘Cause not all of them make it to the college “big leagues”, and their mystique is gone once they have to learn that “Celtic mania” is not good for anything other than those 2-4 years that they can play summer ball – it does not help them at school, it does not get them into college (heck, in today’s world, ANYBODY can get some money to play college hoops SOMEWHERE). And, most of all, they have to learn the hard way that they really are not that special – nor are their coaches, even if they do make it to UCLA as a “recruiter”‘, though not necessarily as a COACH…
The Spirit of UGA VII
June 30th, 2011
11:46 am
Looks like we’re a cinch to win the Fulmer Cup again this year. Life—up here and down there—is good! Go Dawgs!
Too Tough 44
June 30th, 2011
11:48 am
good grief!
Mixed AAU message: McCray to UCLA, UGA players in trouble – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) - Columbus News Up to the Minute - Your Columbus Daily
June 30th, 2011
11:58 am
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GT Trumpet
June 30th, 2011
12:01 pm
ugag fans are very well accustomed to their players cheating. It’s always a given every off season that ugag will post some NCAA violation.
TampaDAWG
June 30th, 2011
12:02 pm
Situation is way overblown, lets hear what the NCAA does if they do anything. By the way, the school can’t get in trouble because neither player was with UGA when these events happened. The players could miss playing time but only time will tell.
Dontavius Supremo
June 30th, 2011
12:03 pm
Unfortunately AAU is not skills based, but only plays game after game after game. A notable graduate of AAU summer ball is Labron James. Blessed with incredible basketball talent, but sorely lacking in basketball skills.
headley lamar
June 30th, 2011
12:04 pm
Why cant Jarvis just use the Cam defense and say he didn’t know about any money?
His mother could go on record saying it was her not Jarvis. Worked for Auburn.
Frank Smith
June 30th, 2011
12:11 pm
When is the Georgia High School Association going to step up and act as the governing body of HS athletics in Georgia? There is no oversight at all in this field now. When you see some athletes changing schools every year there is blatant recruiting going on. The GHSA has completely abdicated their responsibility in this area and also where the AAU teams are concerned. The AAU teams are nothing more than All-Star teams and if you ever look at an All-Star basketball game you will not see any defense played, not a surprise that when these kids get to college they are not grounded in the fundamentals of basketball, particularly on defense. The GHSA could say that for every game played outside the high school regular season with a team not in the GHSA that player will not be eligible for the same number of games the following season with his high school team. A lot of the trouble with the recruiting is tied to the associations these players make playing AAU ball.
Jimmy Crack
June 30th, 2011
12:11 pm
The word ineligible comes to mind. The NCAA has not been doing much forgiving lately. Very depressing. With this and the offensive line woes, 1-1 seems fairly optimistic if not a stretch.
59bulldawg
June 30th, 2011
12:24 pm
I don’t see how the NCAA can penalize a school by taking away the services of one of its recruits when the school did nothing wrong. But since it’s Georgia, I’m sure the NCAA will find a way. Wonder what the chances of this being overlooked ala Auburn style or if penalized, whether we can pick the games ala Ohio State? I say the slow and random way in which the NCAA enforces its myriad rules is just as tyrannical as the corruption it tries to prevent.
Busted
June 30th, 2011
12:27 pm
Off the subject, but in response to the pathetic Nerd blogger: HMMMMM, another Jackette B-baller in trouble with the law. Mmmmmmmmm, mmmmmmmmmmmm.
Busted
June 30th, 2011
12:30 pm
Hey dumbo Spirit:
Zero arrests this off season and you think the Dawgs are shoo-ins for the Fulmer Cup? What do you base this on? Nerd B-ballers are the thugs in this state!
unbiased
June 30th, 2011
12:33 pm
All you holier than thou thUGA fans. What do you have to say now. AJ Greene, Jarvis Jones, Caldwell-Pope. Bunch of hypocrites.
Truthteller
June 30th, 2011
12:37 pm
Mc Cray is a hired gun…nothing more. He’ll be there a couple of years, no more.
gdawginkalamazoo
June 30th, 2011
12:45 pm
Georgia hired Jim Tressel to consult on these matters. When he arrived he asked “Where are we at with this thing?” MacGarity replied that he had just reported the matters to the NCAA. Tressel asked him what that meant. When it was explained to him he just laughed and said that he couldn’t help us but if we wanted to cover something up give him a call.
Paul in RDU
June 30th, 2011
12:50 pm
Mark – Nice, well-balanced article. The root of the problem, as always, is money. As long as Nike and adidas can sell shoes using famous athletes as endorsers (MJ, LeBron, etc) there is going to be bundles of money going to AAU teams. They want to influence “the next LeBron” to sign for them. The Adams and the Porters of the world are just pulling a Willie Horton.
Eddie
June 30th, 2011
12:52 pm
This is a bit confusing … for Jarvis, this happened when he played AAU and ultimately signed with USC, right? Why would UGA, where he recently transferred, hold liability? Is it that the violation follows the player and when he’s caught, he must then pay penalty? Just seems weird that UGA would have any exposure on this one.
Drago
June 30th, 2011
12:54 pm
If they were playing baseball in the minor leagues, this is not an issue. NCAA very inconsistent with rules and enforcement.
SuperB
June 30th, 2011
12:55 pm
Hey “headley lamar,” Russell Wilson was impressive the last 3 years– and not all the teams he faced were a sorry as Georgia Tech. That said, Tom O’Brien is a moron for letting him get away.
pirtdawg
June 30th, 2011
12:59 pm
I think everyone is making way too much of this. This kid didn’t do anything to hurt anyone and it wasn’t near as bad as the OSU deal. For someone on here to call a kid a thug when you don’t even know him, you need to take a good look at yourself. Also please tell me how the NCAA can punish the players or the program for something that happened off their watch in high school?
JB
June 30th, 2011
1:02 pm
Georgia’s clout with the NCAA has been gone since Vince left. He was well thought of and served as Chairman of several committees over the years. With Damon at the helm the last few years, we were thrown in the “pile’
the real Kirby Smart
June 30th, 2011
1:06 pm
Figures. Jones will be suspended for the first 2, while SCAM & thr Rev. Newton laugh all the way to the bank.Bulls**t, but we need a coach(a la Saban) who knows “how to play the game”
blue
June 30th, 2011
1:07 pm
Headley; I’ve seen your grandma play; shis is no Wilson.
the real Kirby Smart
June 30th, 2011
1:08 pm
@ JB. We(and Okla.) sued the NCAA while Dooley was AD and HC. Doubt the NCAA boys have forgotten that. UGA has never gotten a break after that either.
GT BBall
June 30th, 2011
1:20 pm
You mean the NCAA remembers when UGA used the devlopmental studies program to keep athletes eligible for sports that couldn’t read or write. UGA admitted to cheating for the 12 year period, but refused to frofeit the games won with illegal players. Once a cheater, always a cheater. SEC = Sure Everybody Cheats.
Tommy
June 30th, 2011
1:23 pm
Who cares? All college bsketball has become is a semi-pro stepping stone to the pros for a select few players.I have never understood why different sports have different rules to turn professional.
the real Kirby Smart
June 30th, 2011
1:24 pm
Possibly GT. The NCAA may not even know that Tech is still a member insitution, since they are not relevant in any of the revenue generating sports. Oh I’m sorry, when you have to beg your season ticket holders to but more tickets so it’s not a home game for your rival, maybe football is revenue generating either.
RightAllTheTime
June 30th, 2011
1:27 pm
Beware of the NCAA, they are deserving of being charged with LOIC. Should there ever be an attempt to demonstrate the meaning of the somewhat
hackneyed phrase, “Pandora’s Box”, citing what is going on with the NCAA and
college football, especially as it relates to the UNC football program, could
best do the job. Surely there are some sane minds at our universities who
cannot see the utter “lack of control” and chaosthat surrounds the NCAA and
its
investigative activity. The NCAA, in getting involved in regulating the
monitoring of an athlete’s participation in social media interaction, their
“comings and goings”, and in areas which should be left up to the university to
police (honor code violations, parking infractions and adjudication, tutoring
programs, etc.), is giving precedent to a situation that would make
unjustifiable government involvement in the lives of our citizenry look like
mere child’s play.
In the case of UNC, when it became apparent to the NCAA that several UNC
players
were in violation of NCAA rules, those players and other “individuals” who were
deemed to be in violation should have been punished. (I’m not sure that the
severity of the punishment in the case of Austin, Little and Quinn, wherein
they
accepted improper benefits which in no way was condoned by the university and
about which it was unaware, and which only served to damage the football
program, not give it an advantage, was equal to the “crime” in this case. )
If
a UNC assistant coach violated NCAA rules unbeknownst to the Head Coach, then
said coach should be punished appropriately as well. Player agents who are
guilty in such matters should be severly dealt with by the NCAA in whatever
manner that would serve as a strong deterrent to such improper activity. The
degree to which UNC was investigated was totally unnecessary, wasteful, and
ill-advised. To allow the NCAA to continue on this path will inevitably lead
to
truly “opening Pandora’s Box” and creating a mess that will have a damning
effect on college football and its fans, to include their pocketbooks. College
presidents need to wake up before it is too late. While I commend UNC
Chancellor Thorp’s willingness to accept blame where it is appropriate, I
strongly encourage him to take a leadership role in reigning in the NCAA and
curbing its undesirable activities. In addition, fans who support
the NCAA’s activities out of hate for a rival program need to be more
responsible as well. And one more thing, the media is far from being without
sin in this matter as demonstrated by the fact that they are more keen on
participating in a “witch hunt” than a country squire is in participating in a
fox hunt.
sheepdawg
June 30th, 2011
1:30 pm
Spurrier has the right idea, disassociate our institutes of higher learning from the cesspool that is major college athletics, pay the thugs to perform for the masses, and free up classroom space for qualified deserving students. Issues like this go away, and Thuga can carry on without further embarrassing our flagship university.
slydog
June 30th, 2011
1:32 pm
Did a tech fan accuse UGA of cheating? I bet bagmen of the AAU take continuing ed classes at TECH…HAHAHAHHA
GT BBall
June 30th, 2011
1:32 pm
The NCAA invited us to the Basketball tourney in 2010 and has invited us to 14 straight NCAA approved football bowl games.
GT BBall
June 30th, 2011
1:35 pm
I didn’t accuse UGA of cheating. I said UGA is a cheater, a proven cheater. There really is a difference.
Tom
June 30th, 2011
1:39 pm
If you’re going to cut’n'paste, at least clean up the formatting. TIA.
Drago
June 30th, 2011
1:44 pm
I did not accuse tek of cheating. They uses ineligible players and did not forfiet the games. Not to mention O’Leary’s short term loan program.
sogadog
June 30th, 2011
1:46 pm
Assuming the reports are true regarding Jarvis Jones, how will this affect Southern Cal and Lane Kiffin? The alleged violations occurred while Jones played for USC and USC is already in hot water with the NCAA. Could this lead to a death penalty for USC?
BIRDDAWGONE
June 30th, 2011
2:04 pm
Wow, reporting, cool.
Clean House
June 30th, 2011
2:14 pm
Its time to fire this entire football staff and start anew. I’m tired of UGA recruiting players with character issues aka thugs. Mark Richt need to go and stay in Honduras and his mission work. We need a hard nosed football coach who can bring in the trophies.
P-Man
June 30th, 2011
2:22 pm
“You mean the NCAA remembers when UGA used the devlopmental studies program to keep athletes eligible for sports that couldn’t read or write.”
Most sports can’t read or write…
DollarDawg43
June 30th, 2011
2:24 pm
This one will be a real test for the NCAA; I don’t remember a situation like this ever surfacing before.While it is obvious UGA was not involved it makes me nervous for a few reasons:
1. The NCAA will never forgive or forget the Okahoma/UGA TV litigation. Outside of its own environment where it makes its own rules and decides how they are enforced, the NCAA lost in court. The judge/panel ruled on the merits of the case and the schools prevailed.
2. Because this is a new situation it will become a precedent setter. The NCAA will want it known that this is very serious and I fear they will make an example of the first one they deal with.
3. They have to still be smarting over the (justified) criticism they have received relative to the Ohio State debacle. They basically colluded with OSU when they allowed the players to participate in the Sugar Bowl based on their “promise” to return to school and serve their suspensions in the upcoming season. They put a lot of misplaced trust in Jim Tressel and now they all look like idiots.
These situations, while totally out of our control and outside our scope of compliance or enforcement, give me cause to worry.
Nerds! Nerds! Nerds!
June 30th, 2011
2:37 pm
Why won’t anyone write an article on Tech? Oh thats right, nobody cares.
Nerds! Nerds! Nerds!
June 30th, 2011
2:42 pm
clean house
since when is flying on an airplane or talking on a cell phone “thuggish?”
Every team in the country recruited these two, by the way. You should take your own advice and go clean your house.
The Ghost of Wally Butts
June 30th, 2011
2:49 pm
Can we at least get some Fulmer Cup points for this?
DollarDawg43
June 30th, 2011
2:54 pm
Sorry Wally, no FC points for this one. Even the Fulmer Cup Committee has standards and they expect at least the appearance of some effort on the part of an offending party.
Old Dawg
June 30th, 2011
2:55 pm
I really don’t see how this is related to the UGA football program. All of the flights Jarvis Jones made were related to Southern Cal. If that’s the case, what does that have to do with UGA?
If he received similar “benefits” while considering his transfer to UGA, that’s a different issue. If not, that’s like saying a former German scientist who wouldn’t work in a Nazi death camp chemical department, escaped and conducted research on antibiotics, is guilty of killing prisoners.
It makes no sense.
DollarDawg43
June 30th, 2011
3:02 pm
Old Dawg, this is the NCAA we’re talking about here. This is an entity that rarely makes sense.
GET WITH IT, TECHIES...
June 30th, 2011
3:16 pm
You people need to get with the program…this story broke last week and you act like we are supposed to be shocked…we follow our team…so we know what going on…this has nothing to do with UGA, but could effect the eligibility of their players…UGA is in 0 trouble…
sogadog….there will never be another death penalty…
bucket
June 30th, 2011
3:38 pm
Come on guys – tying this story to UGA is just as pitiful as holding GA Tech accountable for what their former players do.
Fran who?
June 30th, 2011
3:45 pm
AAU coaches are, as a group, a bunch of classless piranahs and a detriment to virtually every kid they come in contact with. The line “we get kids scholarships” is baloney….kids get their own scholarships…..AAU is ruining high school hoops.
Old Dawg
June 30th, 2011
3:57 pm
DollarDawg43: You’re right. I was using logic, something the NCAA isn’t aware. Thank you for bringing back to my senses.
Like so many of us have said countless times, the NCAA needs a complete overhaul. The same goes for all of college athletics.
UGAAlum
June 30th, 2011
4:00 pm
As long as Richt relies on his favorite son BoBo he won’t be able to rebuild the team. He should send BoBo packing and take over the offence job or hire an experienced offensive coach.
JayD
June 30th, 2011
4:05 pm
Jarvis won’t miss a game – Didn’t do anything wrong.
AceDawg
June 30th, 2011
5:28 pm
I can’t help but imagine that if there were sunlight on the dealings of all high school athletes during the recruitment process, scores and scores of violations would be prevelant nationwide. Not all athletes, but probably athletes in essentially every program. I would imagine that in UGA’s case, they probably did all the right things vetting these players, and whatever comes of this situation (hopefully nothing, but I’m not optimistic), I chalk it up to an unfortunate outcome out of UGA’s hands.
stonewall!
June 30th, 2011
5:57 pm
Ga needs to stonewall the ncaa like auburn did. Auburns’ star got big money but AU wouldn’t give up any info and they ncaa had to back off. Ga should do the same thing.
Bamma Ramma
June 30th, 2011
6:12 pm
Georgia’s in trouble again. They need to get their AD to call Coach Saban and the Alabama AD about how to run a clean program and win big. Ga may have to forfeit some games if this cheating keeps up.
Columbus
June 30th, 2011
7:06 pm
No big deal here. The PArks and Rec guys here were running the AAU team while employed by the city. A big scam and they got off so easy down here. A criminal case against them guys but really not much here as far as NCAA violations in my opinion. Maybe a minor suspension…..maybe we can appeal until the New Mexico or Coastal game and then drop it and let Jarvis sit out then….my 2 cents. NO big deal
Pencil necked geek
June 30th, 2011
11:05 pm
Hey Techies, the last school in the state of Ga to be on probation was Techies. The last school in Bama to be on probation was Bama lama ding dong. Seems to me, you don’t want to talk about it, you just turn your yellow back and walk away. Maybe we should go back to a club football arrangement. Oh well then there wouldn’t be money for all of those scholarships and buildings that come from money from sports. Heck, if there wasn’t football in Bama, everyone would be relugated to raising cotton.
stick jackson
July 1st, 2011
12:29 am
More like “the UCLA of Sam Gilbert.”
Dawg Tired
July 1st, 2011
9:56 am
So you can play another sport professionally, such as baseball, get paid a million dollars for that, and still be eligible to play college football, but if you are playing AAU basketball and have plane fare paid by the team, you are ineligible to play college football? Excuse me if I fail to understand this absurdity.
Plus your daddy can ask for money for your agreeing to go to a school to play football and you, because you claim you didn’t know daddy asked for money, are eligible to play the same sport?
Surely I’m missing something. Please help me Mark!
61-39-5
July 1st, 2011
10:01 am
Nice one Bamma A** Rammar AKA Harvey Updyke. Are you serious about cheating? Grayshirt U is the cheating mecca of football, along with your little sister in Auburn.
You GTrekkies are desperate. UGA has not cheated in any way in this situation. You need to focus on getting rid of that ridiculous offense you run, that everyone has figured out, weeding out more GT faithful Al Qaida members like Syed Haris Ahmed, and stopping the relentless on campus muggings.
Coach Pectorals Johnson
July 1st, 2011
10:02 am
Nice one Bamma A** Rammar AKA Harvey Updyke. Are you serious about cheating? Grayshirt U is the cheating mecca of football, along with your little sister in Auburn.
You GTrekkies are desperate. UGA has not cheated in any way in this situation. You need to focus on getting rid of that ridiculous offense you run, that everyone has figured out, weeding out more GT faithful Al Qaida members like Syed Haris Ahmed, and stopping the relentless on campus muggings.
Hubie Green
July 1st, 2011
12:19 pm
The school isllowed to sell jerseys and t-shirts, and pictures, et al and make millions of dollars. It’s a democracy. Why not allow players to make whatever they can off their name, number, et al?
RxDawg
July 1st, 2011
1:43 pm
Jones had a prior relationship way before UGA recruited him. That story is a non issue… at least it should be.
Duno about the Pope kid.
Ernest
July 1st, 2011
4:28 pm
I do think AAU basketball gets a bad rap. This are probably just as bad in travel soceer but it does not get the publicity the basketball gets. For that matter, any travel sports team (including competitive cheerleading and beauty contests) has a side most don’t want to talk about.