10 not-quite-random thoughts on the Bibby-for-Hinrich deal
Will Mike Bibby's replacement fare better against the pictured Jameer Nelson? (AJC photo by Curtis Compton)
1. Kirk Hinrich is much better defensively than Mike Bibby and will be more than a swinging gate versus Rajon Rondo or Jameer Nelson or Derrick Rose come the playoffs.
2. Hinrich might be better able to play alongside Jamal Crawford than Bibby was. But I’m not sure Hinrich will play as well in tandem with Joe Johnson, who’s not easy to complement.
3. When the Hawks traded for Bibby in February 2008, he was 29 and had started nearly every NBA game since leaving college. Hinrich is 30 and hasn’t been a full-time starter since 2008. (Granted, it was Hinrich’s misfortune to have been on teams that drafted two point guards — Rose and John Wall — No. 1 overall.)
4. Hinrich’s career three-point percentage is .379. So is Bibby’s. Hinrich has averaged 5.7 assists per game. So has Bibby.
5. Hinrich is under contract through 2012, which gives the Hawks a year’s cover if/when Crawford leaves as a free agent.
6. Hinrich makes more money — $9 million to Bibby’s $5.5 million this season, $8 million to Bibby’s $6.2 million next — so we can’t accuse the Hawks of taking the cheaper way this time. But it’s unclear whether this trade pushes the Hawks above the luxury-tax threshold, which is always a concern with the Atlanta Spirit. (And you’ll note that the Hawks currently have only 14 players on their roster; the NBA allows 15.)
7. As much as fans had soured on Bibby, he remained hugely respected by teammates. Josh Smith told me earlier this season that Bibby set the best screens of any Hawk — try finding another point guard who fits that description — and he was utterly unafraid to take the big shot.
8. The Hawks had better win now because they punted away much of their future. They traded two No. 1 picks — Jordan Crawford and this year’s first choice — for Hinrich and Hilton Armstrong. That’s a lot to spend for a 30-year-old point guard who has never been an All-Star and who hasn’t been starting at the position he’ll be asked to play.
9. Given the draft record of Rick Sund and Dave Pendergraft, not having a No. 1 pick this year might not be so damaging. In two years they’ve landed Jeff Teague, who has disappointed two head coaches, and Jordan Crawford, who scored 67 points as a Hawk.
10. There’s little time for assimilation. Of the Hawks’ remaining 25 games, 15 will come against teams that currently hold winning records. (Heck, 12 of the next 15 will be against opponents above .500.) The Hawks are fifth in the East, a game and a half behind Orlando and four games ahead of the Knicks. It would be surprising if that position changes before the playoffs commence. Which would mean: Kirk Hinrich would indeed get his chance to chase Jameer Nelson in Round 1.
Oh, and one thing more: According to esteemed former colleague Michael Lee, now of the Washington Post, Bibby was so upset by the trade that he is considering buying out his own contract. (In the NBA, this is known as going the Zydrunas Ilgauskas route.) Lee reports, however, that such a tack might not be feasible for Bibby.
By Mark Bradley
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155 comments Add your comment
Tremaine
February 25th, 2011
4:12 pm
bigdawg- they did spend it, just not on a superstar.
K-Dogg
February 25th, 2011
4:13 pm
Why cant this team just get out and run on teams??? If not this summer can we go after Oden and Yao!! I know you guys may blow a top seeing that but we dont have to rush them back and only need them in the playoffs. this team if we are going to play half court ball and run motion offense needs to get a true big man!!!!!!
K.K.
February 25th, 2011
4:17 pm
Hawks: I can pitch basketball good.
Had Enough
February 25th, 2011
4:18 pm
Doesn’t matter! There’s no way the Hawks are going anywhere, before or after the trade. It’s a shame, but the NBA has become a league with just a few really good teams. By allowing a handful of the best players to dictate who they play for, there really no fun in watching the games anymore.
James B.
February 25th, 2011
4:20 pm
MB,
I believe this move was all about leadership not statistics. Teams follow their leader and, as a general rule, their PG is their leader; whether he’s the team’s best player or not. In Thursday’s article by Michael Cunningham’s article in Thursday’s AJC, goofiness, keeping guys loose, the biggest kid on the team were terms used to describe Mike Bibby; while smart, tough, tenacious defender and a serious-minded pro described Kirk Hinrich. Which way would you want your PG described?
Bibby was the right PG/leader for a young team that was just learning how to win. Now a veteran team coming off three straight playoff appearances, these Hawks need a different type of leadership. The question is not whether exchanging the leadership of Bibby for the leadership of Hinrich was a good move—because it was.
Here are the real questions for which answers will come in time: First, will the Hawks follow Hinrich’s lead by playing smart, tough, serious minded and defensively tenacious basketball? Second, what moves will management make during the off-season if players don’t follow Hinrich’s lead?
Skeezix
February 25th, 2011
4:20 pm
Hey Mark: Re: MLB predictions. Who are you picking to win the NL East? I’m sticking my neck out and picking the Braves.
joey
February 25th, 2011
4:20 pm
1234rf
KevinM
February 25th, 2011
4:21 pm
bigdawg, that’s what makes this so tough to deal with….we know they have talent…they have had so many lottery picks, that they can’t seem to figure out how to mold 5 position specific talents on this team and do what OKC has done. OKC was a mess 3 short years ago. The difference of course was their ‘07 #2 pick, Durant, panned out beyond, and out #2 pick, Marvin, is getting 2 pts in 27 min as a 4th option on offense.
Another factor: Durant comparisons: Best Case: More Fluid/Athletic Dirk Nowitzki
Worst Case: Rashard Lewis
Marvin comparisons: Best Case: No Valid Comparison Was Found
Worst Case: Tim Thomas
That says it all! And that doesn’t even include Russell Westbrook.
Courtesy of draftexpress.com
From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Marvin-Williams-59/#ixzz1F0Xpwnlr
http://www.draftexpress.com
Sell this team and go get Sam Presti and his scouts because they know what they’re doing!
The Game Has Changed
February 25th, 2011
4:22 pm
Big Dog and Trmaine. Joe is our superstar. He might not be a top ten player but he is a top 8 shooting guard and he has avg 25,5,5 the last 5 years. Only other player to do that is Kobe. Give the man some credit. He messed up in the playoffs last year and so did Lebron James. We are back to winning 50 games a year. It might not be a Championship game but its better than the 1999-2009. No playoffs
K-Dogg
February 25th, 2011
4:44 pm
Have yall seen Teague in warm ups before a game!!! He the only cat i know in the L beloew 6′4 that cant knock down half his jumpers!!!
yodaddy
February 25th, 2011
4:45 pm
When Bibby let Derek Fisher of all point guards get 6 points, 1 steal and 1 assist in a little under 3 minutes to begin the Laker game that was the last straw.
The boy is straight garbo on defense…he might as well not even be out there. And literally useless if his shot isn’t falling. He was never one of the quickest but hell he can’t even move laterally nowadays and definitely can’t run the court. They try to switch but he’s so short and small that it’s always a mismatch. At least Hinrich is 6′4 and has successfully guarded SGs in his career. Bibby’s not even a good dribbler anymore and have very rarely seen him get into the paint this year.
As a Hawks fan, I actually like Mike Bibby but he is clearly a backup player nowadays that should get 10-15 mpg maximum. He should not be a starter on a championship “contender” (term used loosely). I think he would absolutely excel in a backup role bc he is still a threat on the court on offense and in backup stretches against other backups teams won’t just exploit him every chance they get. But starters need to be two way players.
Especially on a Hawks team that is still the most athletic team in the NBA and is just dying to run up and down the court instead of running that silly offense that results in mid range jumpers at the end of the shot clock bc it takes Bibby 7 seconds to get the ball up the court and into the offense. And on defense when it’s constantly a help situation at the point of attack and his man was never forced to the help but instead had free run at the basket. Situations where bibby was unable to get through the pick in an efficient manner.
It’s true Bibby set good screens but that’s something Josh Smith should be doing. Or Al Horford. Jason Collins will set a hard screen for sure. Zaza can set a good screen but he is always so excited that he’s often called for moving screens.
K-Dogg
February 25th, 2011
4:46 pm
Man the Hawks can still move Joe to the Nets if they want too. They are dying for anotehr star to make sure D. Will stay but what sucks is we cant get Favors and 4 1st round picks and Harris!!!! Thats the deal the Hawks should have made!! Now i dont know what they can give us unless they get a 3 or 4 team trade going!!!
KevinM
February 25th, 2011
4:53 pm
Trivia time…..Can you guess this baller? This is his draft profile:
Strengths: Elite level athlete, very quick and agile for a player of his size… Can play any position on the floor effectively.. Never out-worked or out-hustled… Doesn’t take plays off… Gives you everything he has whether it’s a high school playoff game or an AAU event… Excellent form on jumper… NBA range… Very effective when facing the hoop as he has a quick first step and utilizes his jabs and fakes to perfection… Court awareness is that of a vet… Finds teammates from anywhere on the court…An excellent passer from any spot on the floor who possesses great knowledge of the game…. At 6-9 he handles like a guard and has excellent touch out to 17 feet…. Great rebounder because of his size and ability to get off the ground quickly… Big game player… Plays his best in the clutch… A quick leaper who plays well above the rim. Has tremendous potential.
Weaknesses: More of a wing/forward at this point… Doesn’t play well with his back to the basket as he hasn’t developed a go-to post move… Must improve strength as he won’t always be able to rely on his athletic ability at the next level… Is a shot blocker but has trouble defending smaller quicker players…As with all young guys not named LeBron or Carmelo, he struggles with consistency….
Notes: Would greatly benefit from a year or two in college. A relatively unknown on the hoop scene until the 2002 ABCD camp where he earned all-star honors. He followed that up with a terrific performance at the Adidas Big Time Tournament, being named to the all-tournament team. As a sophomore, averaged 18 points and 11 rebounds for Bremerton High School in Bremerton, Washington. Plays summer ball for Rotary Select, an Adidas sponsored AAU team. Having establishing himself as one of the elite players in the country. Had a huge 34 point performance against Josh Smith and the Champion Atlanta Celtics in the Big Time Tourney last Summer.
MitchC
February 25th, 2011
4:54 pm
Mark, I don’t quite understand why you’re so down on this trade. Your last two articles in regard to this matter sound like you are saying the Hawks basically blew their chance to win the East or something. This team is.. at best.. third.. or fourth in the East, even before this trade.. and before all the injuries.
Granted, I think the Bulls have been a bit of a surprise this year.. but.. except for maybe Orlando underachieving, the expected top teams in the East of Miami and Boston have materialized. One of those teams should end up facing LA or maybe San Antonio for the championship. The Hawks likely would have,, and still may.. win the first round., draw a Boston or Orlando as an opponent in the second round, and say goodbye.
Personally, I think everyone is overreacting just a little bit too much to this trade. It isn’t as if we were a team expected to win the East. and traded away Lebron James.. or Dewayne Wade.
I’m telling you, my friend. The Hawks have peaked. With the Celtics and Miami ahead of them, they seem to have nowhere to go but down. They will probably end up being similar to what they were in the 1990s, a 40 odd to 50 win team, who gets to the second round.. ,maybe.. annually, and gets taken out by the top teams in the East.
Maybe I’m negative. or being too simplistic, but this is just how I see it.
James
February 25th, 2011
5:01 pm
People complain about him a lot, but I liked Bibby. Good luck to him in the future.
James
February 25th, 2011
5:01 pm
He helped turn this team around big time.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 25th, 2011
5:14 pm
No question Bibby deserves credit for helping lift the Hawks from lottery team to year-in year-out playoff team. I think all real Hawks fans will appreciate him for that, and the next time he comes to Philips, he should get a nice ovation. But there’s no question he’s washed up and Hinrich is a clear upgrade. This move had to be made. That doesn’t mean Bibby’s contributions will go unappreciated.
And to the poor, misguided soul who thinks Hinrich won’t fit in because he’s white, Zaza Pachulia came here from the other side of the planet and he seems to be doing just fine. Just because you may have a problem getting along with people of other races doesn’t mean others do, particularly professional athletes who have been in such situations their entire lives.
The Game Has Changed
February 25th, 2011
5:14 pm
Yes he did turn this team around James. Also, what has Za Za done for us besides jump up in KGs face a couple of years ago. At least Bibby contributed. Wish I could say the same for Marvin.
Robert Barron
February 25th, 2011
5:18 pm
Hawks paid too much 4 too little improvement.
tyger
February 25th, 2011
5:19 pm
10 lucid thoughts:
1. Heinrich is an upgrade over Bibby, but no All-star.
2. No Kudos to Sund for Bibby trade.
3. Bibby 3yrs/$18M was just dumb.
4. Kudos to Sund for Armstrong pickup – everything ZaZa isn’t.
5. Armstrong #12 pick, former Big East POY.
6. Both Heinrich-Armstrong immediate improvement from effort alone.
7. Hawks’ inability to move ZaZa-Teague is huge pain in the a$$.
8. Hawks should’ve demanded Yi Jianlian in trade, got taken.
9. Hawks NEED to score on post-buyout spree.
10. Hawks closer, but still need intangibles: shooter, slasher, low-post scorer.
The Game Has Changed
February 25th, 2011
5:34 pm
Robert, you are so right
Ken Strickland
February 25th, 2011
6:03 pm
Now that the trade deadline has passed, and Jamal now knows he’ll finish the season as a Hawk, I wonder if we’ll see the old Jamal again?
joBjo
February 25th, 2011
6:08 pm
wouldn’t it be funny if Bibby caught on with on of our rivals and we met him in the playoffs? bwahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he wouldn’t be such a liability playing with a real good defensive team with a big man to protect the rim.
Ken Strickland
February 25th, 2011
6:09 pm
ROBERT BARRON-the Hawks did overpay, but they paid what they had to pay to get someone to take Bibby and his contract and still give us the PG we needed.
The Game Has Changed
February 25th, 2011
6:21 pm
What does C.Paul, D.Williams, D.Rose, J.Wall, S.Nash, and J. Nelson have in common? They will never when a “RING” with their current team. So no matter who we would have picked up this year, it still would not have been enough. No team has won a ring since the Bulls that couldnt dominate on the inside.
SWAT Native
February 25th, 2011
6:23 pm
KevinM,
Was that Marvin?
#1 Hawks Fan
February 25th, 2011
6:42 pm
I think the memory of our fanbase is too short much like Bulldog fans. Before Bibby arrived we weren’t all that great, he definetely turned the page for this team. Sure his defense is lackin but the guy at least plays hard, I think we gave up way too much for Kirk. Great stuff MB.
Bibby you will be missed, at least by this hawks fan.
bigcalidawg
February 25th, 2011
7:17 pm
JeJe
February 25th, 2011
12:18 pm
If we do not get past the 2nd round this year, I’m pretty sure Smoove will be traded
^^^^^^^^^^^^
This will happen. Horford ain’t goin nowhere, neither is JJ. Horford moves to power forward and we get a big.
ag
February 25th, 2011
7:32 pm
RIP Jason Collier. Oddly enough, he was the last American born white player on the team 04′-05′.. Correct me if I am mistaken. ZaZa has been holding down as the only white player for a while. Chuck & Chernoff were making fun of Kirk, and had the all white player Hawk team of all time. I want to have a little fun with it, but starting from 00″ C- Collier F- Bowdler Gugliotta G- Sura PG Dickau bench Crawford, Maloney… that is all I can come up with.
ag
February 25th, 2011
7:35 pm
I HOPE WE GET POWE
ag
February 25th, 2011
8:06 pm
At NC Marvin averaged 11 ppg and 6.6 rbs. I think he has gained a lot of weight. He is listed at 240. I wonder how much he weighed in college.
TGT
February 25th, 2011
8:27 pm
I’ve heard a lot the last couple of days (esp. on ESPN radio) about how Dwight Howard is done in Orlando. The ESPN thought is, like Shack, Howard is LA bound. Their wisdom was that it would happen this summer, while Orlando is still more in control of the situation. Thus it doesn’t become a Carmelo/Denver scene in Orlando. Orlando would receive Bynum from the Lakers, and thus greatly soften the blow of the loss of Howard.
My question is: why not Horford for Howard this summer. Howard is a GA guy. Horford is an all-star. Howard with Smith-Johnson-Crawford-et al would create quite a buzz and make the Hawks instant contenders.
glad to see the Hawks get a white guy
February 25th, 2011
9:42 pm
Finally a non-tattooed, gold toothed arrogant jerk weed. kudos
Jere
February 25th, 2011
9:54 pm
This trade sucks. Someone needs to trade the GM as well.
Pistol Pete was a decent shooter
February 25th, 2011
10:14 pm
I’ll see your Dallas Comegys and raise you a John Vallely and an Adam Keefe
Pistol Pete was a decent shooter
February 25th, 2011
10:17 pm
AND Priest Lauderdale and Cal Bowdler. And in a stunning bit of good fortune turned sour, do you realize that the Hawks actually draft Pau Gasol?
Blast
February 25th, 2011
10:39 pm
Hey!
JSS
February 25th, 2011
11:32 pm
Larry
February 25th, 2011
11:03 am
“When it comes to player personnel decisions, the Hawks NBA’s version of the NFL’s Oakland Raiders.”
For someone who comes on NBA related blogs and decries the product and the character of the players; “Larry Bedford Forrest” (Centennial Park Bomber of AJC blogs) sure run his mouth a lot!
Then Raiders by the way are hampered by poor coaching choices more than there personnel ones (excluding JeMarcus Russell)… Anybody who would let Greg Knapp near a developing QB with a questionable work ethic deserves what they got! You fools would have a fit of happiness if you’d have the personnel they drafted at WR, RB, O-line and D-line They somehow found players in the first 5 rounds in every draft since 2002…
Try looking at an actual draft board before running your survivalist mouth! Go back yo “Disinformation Central!”
JSS
February 25th, 2011
11:46 pm
SWAT Native
February 25th, 2011
6:23 pm
“KevinM, Was that Marvin?”
It sure was Marvin!
Marvin and Kwame Brown never had the mental make-up to develop to any level beyond a rudimentary skill set… Imagine if Marvin had the work ethic and tenacity of Paul Millsap or a Matt Harpening? However, he looks more and more like a 21st century model of another Carolina alum: Al Wood… We need for him to be a taller version of Walter Daniels!
JSS
February 26th, 2011
12:38 am
ag
February 25th, 2011
7:32 pm
“RIP Jason Collier. Oddly enough, he was the last American born white player on the team 04′-05′.. Correct me if I am mistaken. ZaZa has been holding down as the only white player for a while. Chuck & Chernoff were making fun of Kirk, and had the all white player Hawk team of all time. I want to have a little fun with it, but starting from 00″ C- Collier F- Bowdler Gugliotta G- Sura PG Dickau bench Crawford, Maloney… that is all I can come up with.”
What, no Hanno Mottola, Toni Kukoc, Andy Panko, Paul Shirley, Zeljko Rebraca, Joel Przybilla, Travis Hansen, Josh Davis, Michael Bradley. Zeljko Rebraca, Jon Barry, Predrag Drobnjak, John Edwards, Matt Freije, or Stanislav Medvedenko? I know some are foreign born; but Frije was American born in North Dakota and was on the 06-07 roster….
It wasn’t till the 07-08 season that roster stabilized roster wise…
Buddy Grizzard
February 26th, 2011
3:00 am
“I submit that Rajon Rondo was the 21st pick of the 2006 NBA draft.”
Yep, that was the year the Hawks drafted Shelden Williams, a pick I supported at the time. So hey I’m not perfect either. Will point out that you wrote not one word in opposition to the Hawks’ anticipated drafting of Marvin Williams. I emailed Sekou Smith at the time and asked if he didn’t think the Hawks ought to draft a point guard in the strongest point guard draft of a generation, and he was 100% on board with drafting Marvin based on superstar potential.
But certain teams seem to get it right a disproportionate number of times. Tony Parker was the last pick of the first round of the 2001 draft, just after Jamaal Tinsley, who went to the Hawks when we traded Pau Gasol and Lorenzen Wright for *shudder* Shareef Abdur Raheem.
Manu Ginobli.
DeJaun Blair.
Why don’t the Hawks have a statistician on staff again?
Yellow Jacket
February 26th, 2011
6:10 am
Bring back that lil squirt Tyron Lue …..lol….I watched him take a swing at an opposing player as he blew by him down the lane several years ago. We dont suck atm, but we arnt good enuff for anyone to give a dammnn.
Navigator
February 26th, 2011
10:05 am
Shake it up and if a better team doesn’t show up, remember you gave Michael Jordan money to Joe Johnson. Bad trades, bad signings and general bad management has followed this team since before it left St. Louis to come to Atlanta. A change in ownership may be required to right the direction of the franchise.
marcus
February 26th, 2011
10:06 am
this is probably the best article you ever wrote. most of the time you are a cynical ass.
BirdDog
February 26th, 2011
10:43 am
After seeing some of last night’s game, Hinrich looks like a big upgrade over Bibby. He hustles and actually plays defense. He got in a little foul trouble but I liked his hustle and ball skills.
Paul in RDU
February 26th, 2011
11:35 am
Boston Garden 1988 – the high water mark of the Atlanta Falcons franchise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxqKLEMTBo4
JSS
February 26th, 2011
12:13 pm
@ Paul… That was great night, I was there with my late Brother who lived in Boston his entire adult life… The Garden was never that quiet except when the Pistons finally nailed their coffin shut!
(Got “Falcons” on your mind?)
Realest
February 26th, 2011
5:53 pm
Why so pessimistic Bradley? Check this teams home and road record next to the rest of the league. The vitriol you spew has a big impact on the fans. This could be a special basketball city if the media would stop trying to keep it’s agenda and just do some real reporting. Oh wait…that’s right.. You’re a columnist. Stay in your armchair know it all.
Petra
February 27th, 2011
9:53 am
Very nice information
http://mydietoptions.com/
MD
February 27th, 2011
12:32 pm
In sports, its about team culture. Defining what your team is going to be about and then getting players that fit that culture. The Braves get it. The Falcons get it. Any of us can describe the type of player that “fits” the Falcons or Braves. It is just not in evidence with the Hawks.
Me? I’d build around Horford, a talent and a hard working team player. What is JJ’s role? A gunner? Then, why is Josh Smith allowed outside the paint? This team needs a clear focus. Haven’t seen it from either GM. We change coaches, we change players and we burn draft choices. Why? There is no game plan.
The media should be challenging this and in a major way. Like him or not, everyone knows what the great orgs are going to do and who are their type of players. It starts at the top. Unfortunately, not much but scrambling happening there with the ASG.