Live from Philips Arena: Should the Hawks try a Magic trick?
Vince Carter: No longer Magic. Joe Johnson: Still a Hawk. (AJC photo by Curtis Compton)
The Hawks spent the past two seasons trying to get past Orlando, trying and failing. A check of the standings shows that Atlanta is again gazing up at the Magic, though the Magic team that will appear tonight at Philips Arena has been rendered unrecognizable. Because we saw over the weekend how much the Magic valued simply finishing ahead of the Hawks.
With two trades, the Magic dumped everyone of note except Dwight Howard and Jameer Nelson. Vince Carter, gone. Rashard Lewis, gone. Mickael Pietrus, gone. Marcin Gortat, gone. For those keeping score at home, that marks an offloading of two starters and two rotational subs.
The Magic wound up with Hedo Turkoglu, who used to play for Orlando but left as a free agent, plus Gilbert Arenas, Jason Richardson and Earl Clark. That’s a major December overhaul for any team, especially one that holds fourth place in the NBA East. (The Hawks are fifth.) And there’s no guarantee it will work. But functionality isn’t the issue today; ambition is.
The Magic reached the NBA finals in 2009 and looked primed to do it again last season, but they were bounced in the Eastern Conference finals by Boston, which entered the playoffs as the East’s No. 4 seed. Orlando had just obliterated the No. 3 seed — your Atlanta Hawks — by the record aggregate of 101 points in four numbing Round 2 games.
Then LeBron James made his Decision and the NBA Southeast — heck, the whole NBA — changed. The Magic entered the season having chosen to combat the star-spangled Miami Heat with good ol’ continuity. That worked for a while: Orlando won 15 of its first 19 games. Then it hit a rough patch. (How rough? Well, the Magic lost at home to the Hawks.) Meanwhile, the Heat embarked on a winning streak that has reached 12 games and lifted LeBron’s crew to the top of the division.
And Orlando, depending on your slant, either recognized reality or panicked big-time. His team having lost four times in five games, Magic general manager Otis Smith deep-sixed a blueprint that won 59 games last season to bet on the likes of Arenas, who was suspended by NBA last season for celebrating Bring Your Firearm To Work Day, and Turkoglu, who isn’t as good now as he was when he left Orlando 18 months ago.
Which brings us, however circuitously, to the Hawks. They’ve had the same starting lineup since Mike Bibby arrived in February 2008. They’ve had success — taking the champs-to-be Celtics to Game 7 in 2008; winning a playoff series in 2009 and 2010; going 100-64 over the past two regular seasons — but they’ve exited the same way two springs running: Getting swept in Round 2. Yet these Hawks are essentially the same as last season’s, the only difference being the head coach.
The Hawks won their first six games under Larry Drew, who was promoted when management, such as it is, decided Mike Woodson’s longtime assistant was just the man to take them where Woodson could not. They’ve since gone 11-12, losing to every opponent of note save Orlando. Joe Johnson missed 2 1/2 weeks, which didn’t seem to matter one way or another, which doesn’t say much for the Hawks’ decision to keep him at the staggering cost of $120 million.
And now we ask: The Hawks have changed coaches and re-upped Johnson, and they’re on pace to win 48 games, down from the 53 of last season. They’ve done little to suggest they’d have a postseason prayer against the Celtics or the Heat — the Magic’s status is in definite flux — and by shedding Woodson the Hawks essentially said, “We want to do better.”
The Magic saw themselves as not being quite good enough and took a flier. Should the Hawks, who weren’t as good as the Magic, do the same? Should they break up their longstanding Core Four? If so, who’d leave? (By process of elimination, it would have to be Josh Smith. Al Horford’s too good, and nobody would take Johnson’s salary and nobody wants Marvin Williams.) Do they cut ties with Jamal Crawford, who’s seeking a new contract?
Or do they stay the course, even if the course isn’t apt to take them anywhere they haven’t already been? The Magic weren’t satisfied with what they’d done and what they had. Are the Hawks?
By Mark Bradley
About here, we move to the snappy discourse part of our program. I’m at the arena and will be happy to chat with one and all about the Hawks, the Magic and the world in general. And you should know that the Magic are starting a team — Turkoglu and J. Richardson are in the lineup — that hasn’t yet practiced. Said Stan Van Gundy, the Orlando coach: “The Hawks have been together six years; we haven’t been together six hours.”
Please join me for a fun-filled and frolicsome evening. To borrow from James Brown: Please, please, please. As ever, I thank you in advance.
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209 comments Add your comment
yodaddy
December 20th, 2010
3:18 pm
Available players perfect for the Hawks
Chauncey Billups
Steve Nash
Gerald Wallace
Stephen Jackson
Andre Iguodala
Marcus Camby
J.R. Smith
Ted M
December 20th, 2010
3:18 pm
Orlando may be worse but the Hawks still can’t win in the playoffs.
yodaddy
December 20th, 2010
3:19 pm
I’ll take Andre Miller too
hmmmm......
December 20th, 2010
3:22 pm
The Hawks need a true center and an upgrade at pg. Bibby is great scorer but can’t defend and who knows what teague can do. I’d say no one on the roster is untradeable, id shop everybody
hmmmm......
December 20th, 2010
3:23 pm
Nash and Camby would be sweet
ATL RAISED INDY LIVING
December 20th, 2010
3:24 pm
Enter your comments here
yodaddy
December 20th, 2010
3:27 pm
Can we draft Maya Moore to play PG or get Angel McCautry from the Atlanta Dream to come in for Marvin Williams?
We have absolutely NOBODY with any trade value on this team.
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December 20th, 2010
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beone
December 20th, 2010
3:47 pm
Changing things would at least create hope for better days. There is currently no hope and no chance that they improve on the past two years’ results. Keep Horford and Johnson and get a “good” center and point guard. Then fill out the rest of the roster as best you can and go with it.
Ced
December 20th, 2010
4:10 pm
By no means do I believe we get better by trading Josh and keeping Marvin. I think we need to make a trade to get better but if we do it has to be for someone that clearly makes us better and is an improvement over anybody we currently have. I think a trade of marvin, and J Crawford could bring something back. As much as I hate losing Crawford becuase he is clearly our greatest scoring threat, I think he is our best asset to bring in a worthy trade piece. We should maybe explore even trading Teague, because sometimes he looks like a “good” PG and other nights he rarely affects the game, so we should possibly get what we can while he’s still an unknown.
Billy
December 20th, 2010
4:11 pm
Meanwhile, my team, the Spurs are 23-3!
Dawggie
December 20th, 2010
4:13 pm
Joe Johnson and Jos Smith for Carmelo & Nuggets 1st picck in 2011 ?
Gary O
December 20th, 2010
4:17 pm
Hawks need to make a trade. As constructed, with a rookie HC, I think the Hawks ceiling is at best, a second round showing, where they should be more competitive.
At worst, they will lose in the first round.
Jinx Master
December 20th, 2010
4:24 pm
No hope with Sund in charge, the best move made in the last 5 years for this team is the signing of Jamal Crawford. Now he is not happy here either, what other players in the league would want to become part of this dysfunctional organization?
TruthSeeker
December 20th, 2010
4:26 pm
The Hawks do need a shakeup, but I’m afraid Bradley is barking up the wrong tree. Sund has shown no imagination as a general manager. He’s been very stubborn in maintaining the status quo, and I don’t see him dramatically shifting direction at this point. He believes, first and foremost, in continuity. I don’t agree with his philosophy, but it’s his and he’s not going to change it.
What’s happened to the Hawks this year is exactly what I feared would happen: they’ve stagnated. Guys like Josh Smith, Marvin Williams and Al Horford have reached points in their career where they can no longer be expected to take significant leaps forward every year. They’re all further enough along in their careers where their level of production is pretty well established. I did hold out some slight hope that Teague would come out playing like gangbusters this year and lift the team, but I also know that guys who are picked 19th in the draft rarely turn out to be big time difference-makers.
To make a long story short, the Hawks are in no man’s land. They’re a solid team that doesn’t seem to have any path to reaching the elite in the near future because they don’t have any budding stars on the roster and they have a GM that seems perfectly content to be slightly above average. Essentially, we’re right back to where we were in the 1990’s. I guess there’s worse places to be, but the situation right now doesn’t do much to inspire hope.
bill Cody
December 20th, 2010
4:26 pm
The Hawks need a big center and a point guard (in that order.
How about trying Horford with Powelland 4, Josh with Evans at 3, Joe at 2 with ??? at Center and PG.
The problem here is everybody needs a big center, who is available Maybe Lopez in Phoenix, Gasol in Memphis (I don’t think so) or Love in Minn, Blanche in Wash on and on.
Who do the Hawks have to trade, Crawford ??, Williams, Bibby, ZaZa, Joe (I would in a heart beat but no one will take on theat contract).
If possible I would use as a core Horford, Josh, maybe ZAZa and build from there, having 6 or 7 wings will not win unless you have a elite PG and shooter.
I think the Hawks are in trouble (45 wins, 6th seed at best) until the new agreement come into place then tehy could maybe make a few solid moves.
Double Zero Eight
December 20th, 2010
4:28 pm
The Hawks need a true center. The jury is still out on Teague. They are likely to exit in the first round of the playoffs. There is no way for this team to beat the elite teams in the eastern conference.
playoffs. We are a mediocre team. We can’t even beat the bad teams consistently.
Jinx Master
December 20th, 2010
4:31 pm
Do any of you people out there know the fundamentals of B-ball. Orlando will be fine as long as you have a solid big man in the post you are lock for the playoffs. Whether they got better or worse, if the Hawks meet them in the playoffs they will get crushed. Miami is another team that will get exposed as well as New York, but the big difference is that they are both out shopping for Pryzbilla or any other big man, unlike the Hawks!
balismith
December 20th, 2010
4:34 pm
thought you said the hawks had to resign joe to stay viable..wonder what the hawks coulda done with 120 million for free agents at the start of the season
PureEvil
December 20th, 2010
4:35 pm
Crawford, Bibby and 1st round pick for Steve Nash.
Chuck
December 20th, 2010
4:39 pm
The problem is the clown ex GM Billy doofus Knight did a terrible job of drafting players. The best two players on the team by far are both PF and neither should be playing anywhere near big minutes at another position. Playing Horford out of position at C isn’t fair to him. Smith shooting 3’s is a nightmare.
Bibby is WAY over the hill and is at best a 10-15 minute a game player. I’m sure there must be a reason as both head coaches have treated Teague the same way but we still don’t know anything about Teague. JJ is a candidate for most over paid player in the game. JJ just isn’t a superstar and is at best a third option on a top 4 or 5 team. We all know he disappears when teams decide to play defense in the playoffs. Marvin Williams was a terrible pick then and an even worse pick today.
Where have we heard this before? It’s time to blow up the team and rebuild. I don’t understand how with such a vibrant black community that signing free agents for the Hawks is such a problem.
Smiling Jack
December 20th, 2010
4:50 pm
The Hawks need a big center, but don’t have the balls to make a trade!
wxwax
December 20th, 2010
4:51 pm
Rick Sund is a caretaker type of GM.
I don’t trust him to make a blockbuster trade. Until they get a new GM, I’m Ok with “as is.”
Hawks fans well remember the last time this organization tried to blow things up.
10 years of anonymity with Isiah Rider for company.
No thanks.
Tim
December 20th, 2010
4:52 pm
If there’s a team out there that’s looking for a forward that has marginal ability and walks like he has something stuck up his butt, then Marvin Williams is their guy.
Ted M
December 20th, 2010
4:56 pm
Ha ha, but its true, he actually does walks like he has something stuck up his butt.
Nathan Darling
December 20th, 2010
5:00 pm
Ted M you explain worse, you start Josh Powell and you have no backup PF You play Marvin there because Pf now of days are more athletic and are more of jumpers now. You keep there for the year. Next year you can keep him to come off the bench for melo.
KevinM
December 20th, 2010
5:05 pm
Sund believes in 2 things:
1) The core as it is today…..
2) Standing pat during the season. He hasn’t made a significant move during his time here. I saw ScoreAtlanta tying our terrific GM Sund to the draft of Al and Marvin. Brother! That ought to tell you what this town thinks about this team.
We have 4 pieces of value that have ’some’ trade value: Jamal/Joe/Al/Smoove – Guys who have duplicate skills of each other. The other 2 starters and the remainder of the bench? Any team has the kind of talent on their roster as the Hawks.
I love the guys who blog under MC telling us how tough it will be for teams to match up with us.
11-12 since starting 6-0? Its worse than I thought.
MitchC
December 20th, 2010
5:05 pm
I dont follow the Hawks as closely as I do the Braves. I live in PA, and cant get their games.
Based on what I’ve heard, and what you and the other writers say, here is how I see it:
The Heat are the class of the division, the conference, and maybe.. the league. They have gotten over their rough start.
The Magic changed drastically. It’s either they thought the drastic changes would make them better.. or.. they just concede that they aren’t good enough to get past Lebron/Dewayne and Company in June. (Maybe no one else is, except Kobe).
As for the Hawks, yes, JJ was out 2 plus weeks, but,, this team is very Jekyll Hyde at best. Beat the Magic on the road, but lose to the lowly Nets on the road. Not a good way to go if you’re planning to be a Final Four team in the Eastern Conference.
Realistically, the Hawks are probably in a similar situation in basketball, as the Braves are in with their sport. The Hawks, like the Braves.. are a good ballclub, but not good enough, to play with the elite. The Hawks have a chance to win 50 games, and then they will go down, when confronted with the likes of Boston.. or Miami.
I dont know if it’s time to break the Hawks up. Give JJ 120 mil, but let Josh Smith go? Maybe we cant afford him.. but.. for the Mark Bradley who wrote last spring that the Hawks had to give JJ the Max contract, it sounds like a lot like you are conceding that it’s inevitable the Hawks may take a step backwards.
Maybe the Hawks have just plateaued, much like the 1980s and 1990s Hawks teams did when they were good. The 1980s Hawks teams could never get past the Celtics or Pistons, and the 1990s Hawks teams used to fold when confronted by the likes of the Bulls.
They probably are what they are.., a good team.. that isnt one of the elite in the conference, like Miami. The fans and writers may have no choice but to accept that.
KevinM
December 20th, 2010
5:07 pm
Followup: His move to acquire Jamal came during the offseason…..I am commenting about his in-season decisions…..which restaurant to eat at, which vacation to take, etc.
He is stealing money for what he does during the season.
Ben
December 20th, 2010
5:09 pm
If the Hawks trade Josh Smith I am no longer a Hawks fan
Tom
December 20th, 2010
5:13 pm
Nobody wants Marvin which is all the more reason to try to unload him. Send him and Jamal to Denver, along with a draft pick if necessary for Melo. Put Bibby on the bench behind Teague and run like there’s no tomorrow.
Dejay
December 20th, 2010
5:14 pm
Truthseeker has it right, bullseye on the target. The Hawks are right where they were before the J.R. Rider deal, which is good enough to make the playoffs and that’s about it. Come to think about it, the same can be said about Nique’s teams in the ’80s, the John Drew teams of the ’70s, and so on. Know what all of those squads have in common? Everyone in this town and in their locker room knows that there’s no help coming from the front office when they need it the most. We all know that they’ll sit on their hands when a trade is needed. We all know that they’ll blow the pick if they ever get a shot at drafting high in the lottery (see Williams, Marvin/Williams, Shelden/Childress, Joshua). And we definitely know that they’ll detonate their cap for an overrated player (Koncak years ago, JJ now). WWE Raw has less predictability than this outfit.
That’s the major reason why sooooo many people don’t believe in this franchise and have stayed away from the building unless Kobe, Shaq, or Lebron is in town. A sucker is born everyday but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time and this team has stripteased the fans so much over the years that it’ll take heaven and earth to move in order for them to believe in them again.
So I’ll wait on my couch and watch them play with ‘their core’ until Crawford leaves via free agency, only for them to cry about cap space after a new CBA is put forth and only bring in even MORE minimum-salary players like Jason Collins, Joe Smith, or some CBA wannebee. As they say, second verse….
jay
December 20th, 2010
5:33 pm
All these folks asking for Melo, but Melo wants no parts of Atlanta. Let it go, lol. Stay the course Hawks. You have some great pieces. Once Drew’s system becomes second nature this will be an excellent team with a future because of the offensive system. Also with the loss of Gortat Orlando no longer has a significant size advantage over the Hawks so they will not beat us in a 7 game series with the team they have right now.
QB
December 20th, 2010
5:41 pm
Why isn’t jordan crawford getting more playing time. We should trade Crawford and Bibby for Stevie Nash that would be a sick lineup. Then next year draft the best center availabe with your draft pick.
PG NASH
SG JJ
SF Williams
PF Smith
C Horford
Bench Jordan Crawford, Powell, Teague, ZaZa, evans,
Jinx Master
December 20th, 2010
5:44 pm
I’m sorry but all this stuff about Sund thinking about the core & continuity just doesn’t cut it. If he had an owner who demanded more of him, even if they didn’t spend a lot money. The truth about Sund would come out, he is just not capable of pulling off the blockbuster deal. He’s not capable of putting together a sweet deal that would lure the big time player to play for the Hawks
Jinx Master
December 20th, 2010
6:02 pm
@MitchC Miami will never make it past Boston or Orlando for that matter, they have no interior game to speak of. Just like defense in football, thats what big men do for you in basketball when the postseason rolls around.
bulldozier99
December 20th, 2010
6:07 pm
GOT THE FIX…………..Dwight Howard has not sighned an extension that’s why orlando has done all of these trades……get in Dwight’s ear and tell him he can come home to the atl………..EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE AFTER THAT………U GUYS DONT HAVE TO PAY ME FOR THE INFO…….
Charles Barkley
December 20th, 2010
6:10 pm
The Magic made a mistake with Vince Carter and now have corrected that with a solid trade that will immediately shore up some weaknesses–and they probably aren’t done yet. Again the Hawks are looking up at the Magic. The Hawks don’t need Shaq-he’s over the hill.
Will
December 20th, 2010
6:11 pm
Nobody on this hawks team should be untradeable, they have some major problems on this team.
They give Johnson a $ 124 million dollars contract, not only doesn’t he have a bad attitude, he can’t even score 15 pts or more every gm. Lebron James $ 98 million contract, 30 pts per.
The fans know that they are not going to win every gm, but the lack of effort and no pride or urgency has simple turned me completely.
Navigator
December 20th, 2010
6:20 pm
After giving Jo Johnson a billion dollars, I don’t think they have any money left. At least the time Johnson was gone proved two things, first they can win without him, and they can lose without him. Now that he’s back, I don’t expect the team to be a lot better than they were without him. He’s making so much money no other team would even consider him in a trade (stupid is as stupid does).
hawks fan
December 20th, 2010
6:20 pm
to tell the truth they need to see if they can trade for a big man put al at the 4 spot and josh at the 3 and williams not start
LQUE
December 20th, 2010
6:24 pm
ATLANTA needs scoring from the point guard ,shooting guard and small forward positions ,a coach will help look to M.ELLIS, J. WALLACE ,TRADING FOR THESE TWO WILL RIGHT THE SHIP .use TEAGUE,BIBBY,P.SLY,M.WILLIAMS,MO,J.CRAWFORD1 .C.BOSH defensive problems will magnify come playoff time JOSH have proved he can defend get scoring other than JOSH & AL play the seven ATLANTA can compete but not with the front court expecting to carry the scoring load
Jinx Master
December 20th, 2010
6:27 pm
Dwight Howard has 2 yrs left on his contract, but according to most of these Hawks fans they should trade Josh Smith the only man that has Dwight’s attention ! If Smith is gone who is gonna get into Dwight’s ear & convince him to play for the Hawks. They are good friends who came up in the AAU ranks together. Joe Johnson definately is not gonna convince anybody to play along side him, he couldn’t convince anyone this year.
yodaddy
December 20th, 2010
7:01 pm
If Dwight Howard came to the Hawks that would be something special….too bad there’s not enough cap room to make that happen even if he wanted to come
yodaddy
December 20th, 2010
7:01 pm
Atlanta Hawks are primed to get blown out tonight
J.J.M.
December 20th, 2010
7:05 pm
lol we know the hawks wont make a trade…I think more people are supporting the falcons more than the hawks now
Mark Bradley
December 20th, 2010
7:10 pm
Jason Collins starts. To play Dwight Howard. Marvin Williams doesn’t start.
Bandwagon Bill
December 20th, 2010
7:11 pm
Mark, am I remiss in thinking the Falcolns aren’t getting the love they deserve from the media and the NFL? Does that dim their chances?
J.J.M.
December 20th, 2010
7:12 pm
not surprised by marving being bench…maybe he can go color a christmas coloring book
Mark Bradley
December 20th, 2010
7:12 pm
Nope, Bandwagon Bill. A bunch of media folks will go crazy over the Hawks when they beat the Saints on Monday.