The debate: Does Philly’s rotation trump Braves of the ’90s?
The comparison is so inviting that even a world-class dunce like yours truly has made it: With Cliff Lee, the Phillies would seem to have a rotation capable of challenging the best ever, and I’m of the opinion the best rotation ever worked here in the ’90s. Yes, there’s a major caveat: The Braves of the ‘9os went out and did it, while the Phillies must go out and do it. That said …
Roy Halladay and Cole Hamels. Roy Oswalt and now Cliff Lee. On paper, that’s pretty stinkin’ good. (Apologies to Mark Richt for borrowing his line.)
And it’s not just this world-class dunce who thinks so. All the smart guys who crunch baseball numbers are saying so, too.
From Dan Szymborski of ESPN Insider (link requires registration): “The 2011 Philadelphia Phillies rotation isn’t meant to just win; it’s meant to demolish other teams … The Phillies’ new rotation could be the best one we’ve seen in more than 40 years — and beating out staffs with [Tom] Seaver, [Bob] Gibson, [Steve] Carlton, [Dwight] Gooden and ‘Greg] Maddux is no small matter.”
From Tom Verducci of SI.com: “It’s the rotation with the best pure stuff and proven track record since the 1966 Dodgers of Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Don Sutton and Claude Osteen.”
From Buster Olney of ESPN Insider (requires registration): “On paper, it’s the best rotation we’ve seen in about 20 years.”
From Eric Seidman of Baseball Prospectus (requires registration): “The 1998 Braves [of Maddux, tom Glavine, John Smoltz and Denny Neagle] had the best rotation going into their season in baseball history, and with the addition of Cliff Lee, the Phillies rank second … Do not forget the dynamic Braves rotations of the 1990s. They are still the gold standard in starting rotations, though history may soon be rewritten.”
A dissenting note from Cliff Corcoran of SI.com: “The greatest rotations since 1954 … were those of the 1997 Braves and 1966 Dodgers, both of which were worth 33.6 wins above replacement. That shouldn’t come as any great surprise. The Dodgers of 1966 were the last team to feature Sandy Koufax and Don Drysdale and the first to include rookie Don Sutton. That’s three Hall of Famers to match the ‘97 Braves trio of Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz, all of whom are Cooperstown-bound … Where the Phillies’ four fall short is not on the back end, but up top. As great as Halladay is, he has never dominated over a full season the way Koufax or Maddux did.”
Loading ...Projecting greatness, or the lack thereof, always makes for prime Hot Stove kindling. I know. In February 1993 I did a 100-inch story — for you lay people, that’s a long one — on where the Braves’ new rotation stacked up against the all-time best. I spoke with Bob Feller, who was part of a dandy one in Cleveland, and with Ray Miller, who was Earl Weaver’s pitching coach with the Orioles in the late ‘90, and with the aforementioned Sutton. Heck, I even went to the library — Al Gore hadn’t yet brought the Internet to the masses — to look stuff up.
And now I direct you to this fine (and lengthy) story by Jayson Stark of ESPN, in which he quotes Leo Mazzone, who knew the Braves’ rotations better than anyone. Rockin’ Leo employs a bit of revisionist history by saying the Braves “chose” to sign Maddux over Barry Bonds in December 1992 — actually, the Braves were devastated they didn’t land Bonds — but otherwise makes salient points. He likens Halladay to Maddux, Lee to Glavine, Oswalt to Smoltz and Hamels to Steve Avery.
Leo’s conclusion: “So these [Philly] guys all have signature pitches and stuff and makeup as good as anybody in the game in my opinion. And Lee, I think, is the best signing since Maddux in ‘93. But the one thing that Braves staff will always have is the longevity of greatness.”
And that’s the difference: The Braves’ rotation of the ’90s essentially stuck together. Maddux was 26 when he signed with the Braves. Lee is 32. Halladay and Oswalt are 33. These Phillies surely won’t have the staying power the Braves did. But they’re going to be mighty wicked in 2011.
By Mark Bradley
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162 comments Add your comment
J Clay
December 15th, 2010
11:58 am
No comparison – Braves staff better…
Maddux – HOF over 300 wins
Glavine – HOF over 300 wins
Smoltz – HOF with the wins and saves
Lee – very good but 102 wins – not HOF material
Halladay – likely HOF, still needs to be on top a few years
Owalt – not really that great, past his prime, not a HOF candidate
Hamels- kidding right?
Trade Nate for a Bag of Balls
December 15th, 2010
11:58 am
first
ByteMe
December 15th, 2010
11:59 am
Your last paragraph is exactly what I thought when the question first came up on sports radio yesterday. It’s nice to do it for a season, but let’s see you do it for a decade.
But a point also made on radio was that they don’t have much money left for spending on hitting or bullpen, which will be an issue for winning in the playoffs.
ByteMe
December 15th, 2010
12:00 pm
Your last paragraph is correct, Mark: doing it for a season or two is nice, but let’s see you do it for a decade and then we can talk about which is better.
Enemas for Christmas
December 15th, 2010
12:00 pm
It’s football season ladies.
J Clay
December 15th, 2010
12:01 pm
By the way trade Nate and Mark – I actually put a thoughtful comment in and was still 1st over the juvenile first. Gotta love that.
Brock
December 15th, 2010
12:01 pm
uno!–Phillies will Phail!
Brock
December 15th, 2010
12:01 pm
Damn!!
Sanford Drive
December 15th, 2010
12:01 pm
(((((42-34))))) hahahahahahaha
Trade Nate for a Bag of Balls
December 15th, 2010
12:02 pm
If we had a better manager.
We would have 4-5 WS titles instead we have 1
Trade Nate for a Bag of Balls
December 15th, 2010
12:04 pm
We had 3 stud pitchers in their mid 20s and couldnt win more than 1?
ArkyTech
December 15th, 2010
12:04 pm
Also important to note that Braves staff accomplishments took place in live ball / steroid era. Phils current staff coming of the so-called “Year of the Pitcher”.
David Granger
December 15th, 2010
12:05 pm
It’s certainly a strong rotation. Keep in mind that we have the advantage of looking back and judging our Braves rotations with 20/20 hindsight…and as Bill James pointed out, one of the big strengths of the Braves rotations of the 1990’s is that they all stayed healthy year-in, year-out. And in addition to our “Big Three”, we also had a quality fourth-starter as well…Steve Avery, Charlie Liebrandt, Denny Neagle.
The Phil’s rotation sure looks impressive on paper…now they’ve got to go out and perform.
STRETCH
December 15th, 2010
12:09 pm
And this is all they have to write about?????
Hillbilly Deluxe
December 15th, 2010
12:10 pm
The debate: Does Philly’s rotation trump Braves of the ’90s?
Only time will answer that question.
Bryan G.
December 15th, 2010
12:10 pm
I think it’s a debate worth having after a year or two. You have to remember that in the mid-90s, Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz were peaking. I think Philly’s starters are on their downward trajectory based on their ages.
Mark Bradley
December 15th, 2010
12:13 pm
Kudos, J Clay.
Mark Bradley
December 15th, 2010
12:13 pm
Let me just note one thing: Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz weren’t Hall of Fame locks in 1993. They became that over time.
Abnerish
December 15th, 2010
12:15 pm
Except for Maddux, all of the others on our staff were either drafted by the Braves or acquired via a trade when they were minor leaguers (Smoltz). I think that says more about an organization than an ability to pull out your checkbook and pay for a bunch of free agents. So, in essence, it’s not a fair comparison.
PMC
December 15th, 2010
12:15 pm
Who knows…(the shadow probably)
One thing I do know…sportswriters LOVE hype and conjecture.
Long Time Braves Fan
December 15th, 2010
12:17 pm
It’s a shame that Ted Turner is giving away half of his wealth when he could easily buy the Braves and he (and us fans) could all have fun again.
10-3 Lead After 3
December 15th, 2010
12:20 pm
The greatest set of pitchers ever over a 10 year span, and yet only one championship. Embarrassing.
Supes
December 15th, 2010
12:21 pm
Mark, do u write about the Philly Paper now? All these articles about the Phillies the last 2 days…give it a rest.
You and Jeff and everyone else at the AJC have a fascination with Philly it seems…
Lowcountry Bulldawg
December 15th, 2010
12:21 pm
Nope, how many HOF do the Phillies have in the rotation? 1, Halladay, case closed.
1eyedJack
December 15th, 2010
12:22 pm
Which year? They haven’t even played a season together so how are you going to make a comparison?
Lowcountry Bulldawg
December 15th, 2010
12:23 pm
Mark,
At 32 Lee is highly unlikely to become a HOF, Oswalt is a good pitcher, but not a HOF candidate. Hamels is a solid lefty, but again nothing to right home about.
jeffrey d
December 15th, 2010
12:23 pm
And this is all they have to write about?????
Yes, the Phillies just unexpectedly signed Lee to give them the best rotation in baseball.
This is boring, Mark…why aren’t you talking about the exciting baseball stories of the week? Like what kind of sandwich Chipper ate for lunch, or how long of a nap McCann’s going to take
JoeFan
December 15th, 2010
12:26 pm
Only one very good pitcher / Hall of Fame type pitcher in the Phillies rotation and that is Halladay. The other 3 are just good. As a group they don’t measure up to Maddox, Glavine and Smoltz and Avery / Negle at their peak. It will be interesting to see if the the Phillies rotation holds up since 3 of them are 30 or older.
JJ (no relation)
December 15th, 2010
12:26 pm
ArkyTech. The steroid era did not start in earnest until the end of the 90s. Halliday, Lee, and Oswalt all pitched in the hayday of steroid use.
jeffrey d
December 15th, 2010
12:32 pm
Look, I loved the Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz era, but I can’t be a homer here…I think H2O + Lee is a better rotation
Dirty Dawg
December 15th, 2010
12:41 pm
I’m sorry, but this topic is for s**t…what difference does it make if the Phillie’s staff next season is better than one the Braves had sometime in the last decade? What matters is if their ‘11 staff will be better than our ‘11 staff, and we won’t now that until the season’s over will we?
Sometimes guys, you really seem to be digging down to the bottom of the barrel for something to talk about.
aaron
December 15th, 2010
12:42 pm
the 90’s braves rotation was 4 young ace pitchers. at the time they were unproven, very talented, but with age on their side.
no doubt, the phillies have the best staff in baseball now, but their arm’s are much older, and because of that halladay, oswalt and lee are obviously past their primes. in fact, i wouldn’t be surprised if workhorse guys like halladay and lee start having arm issues in the next year or 2.
Enemas for Christmas
December 15th, 2010
12:44 pm
Lets get to the Superbowl first.
beone
December 15th, 2010
12:44 pm
Thank the good lord that I am just a layman when compared to the almighty newspaper stiff.
Joe Tess Fish House
December 15th, 2010
12:45 pm
Why wory about the pitcing for the Braves? We need 2 wory about the loosing manager they hired. He has a loosing record! FAIL!
papadawg
December 15th, 2010
12:48 pm
Who cares about the 90’s, what matters is it trumps the heck out of what the Braves have today and I don’t see any positive improvements with the GEEKY ownership we have at this time. Unless we get some more pitching and big time hitters its going to be a long hot summer
Jaydawg
December 15th, 2010
12:48 pm
WHO CARES?IT’S FOOTBALL SEASON.
Hoosier Aaron
December 15th, 2010
12:51 pm
Ask every GM, Manager and Pitching Coach if they’d rather have Smoltz/Glavine/Maddux in their prime or the Phillies group in their prime.
I’m betting 100% take our guys – including Charlie Manuel.
chief pitchanono
December 15th, 2010
12:51 pm
I agree on paper its a great rotation, but the Braves rotation of the 90’s had youth on their side where the philly rotation does not. They will be lucky to stay healthy, effective and together for a couple of years so I don’t think they will be as good as the Braves rotations of the 90’s. I think this was a silly move by philly, they put all their eggs in one basket and if they have a couple of cracks in this allstar rotation they could go from World Series favorites, to not even making the playoffs because they have no depth behind these 30 something year old guys and not much of a bullpen to ease the workload. Maybe it will work for them and they will win another World Series, but they had better do it sooner than later because I think they are destined to end up like the Braves a few years ago where we lost, hudson, glavine and Smoltz all in the same season – (we won’t mention hampton) with no where to turn – then we’ll see if they are really committed to this huge new payroll when they don’t even make the playoffs.
brian
December 15th, 2010
12:55 pm
Mark, check your records. If I’m not mistaken, Maddux signed with the Braves long before he signed with the Giants.
stinger
December 15th, 2010
12:58 pm
All I know is that Heyward will have to gets his hits off some other team, He’ll bat below .200 against the Phillies
DNice
December 15th, 2010
1:05 pm
Instead of worrying about the 90 Braves they need to be compared to the current Giants who shut down that vaunted lineup of the Phillies and the Rangers with the real beast of all young pitchers in the NL Mr. Timmmmyyyyyy. The current Braves are not to shabby either but they dont have what the 90 Braves had going for them and thats what we call D-Fence.
Stargazer
December 15th, 2010
1:05 pm
Rockin’ Leo Calzonne is a dweeb. Ever hear him on a Braves pre-game show? He should be wearing a cheerleader’s skirt. Though that is not a particularly pleasant thought.
Dawgpound
December 15th, 2010
1:09 pm
Do it for a decade + and continually plug in effective starters and reclamation projects for that 4th and 5th spot in the rotation while winning 14 straight division titles and then, yeah they might be on par with the Braves staff of the 90’s.
Buzz ME
December 15th, 2010
1:17 pm
are you serious…of course it does.
oasisbraves
December 15th, 2010
1:25 pm
Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz/Millwood/Neagle……three of them were home grown players…. vs this Phillie roation which bought all but one.
Braves Sorry
December 15th, 2010
1:26 pm
THIS IS THE LAST TIME I WANT TO READ AN ARTICLE LIKE THIS THAT LIKENS THE BRAVES TO THE PHILLEYS BECAUSE THE PHILLIES HAVE THE GREATEST ROATATER IN MLB HISTORY EVER WITH HALLADAY, LEE, OSWALT, AND HAMELS DONT YOU PEOPLE REMEMBER THAT HAMELS WAS THE MVP OF THE WORLD SEARIES A FEW YEARS AGO??????? I THOUGHT NOT CAUSE THE BRAVES ARE SORRY THEY SHOULD HAVE SIGNED LEE AND HALLADAY NOW THE BRAVES WILL BE IN FOURTH PLACE COME NEXT OCTOBER LOOKING AT THE OUTSIDE FROM THE INSIDE AND IT WON’T BE PRETTY!
Mark Bradley
December 15th, 2010
1:27 pm
Maddux wasn’t homegrown. Smoltz came from Detroit, Neagle from Pittsburgh. Just sayin’.
Mark Bradley
December 15th, 2010
1:28 pm
Nope, brian. I covered those winter meetings in Louisville. Bonds signed with the Giants before Maddux signed with the Braves.
STONEMAN
December 15th, 2010
1:33 pm
JJ,The steroid era began long before the late 90’s.
STONEMAN
December 15th, 2010
1:33 pm
Enter your comments here
F-105 Thunderchief
December 15th, 2010
1:34 pm
Don’t forget Kevin Millwood in that really good fourth pitcher category.
Heisenberg
December 15th, 2010
1:48 pm
If the question was who had the better top 3, then I would say Braves. But considering Braves #4 had some turnover through the 90’s, edge goes to Phils for depth. 71 Orioles with four 20 game winners were still best ever IMHO.
Mitchell
December 15th, 2010
1:49 pm
As much as I hate the Giants, they sure are getting the shaft on this one.
I mean, the one time they won the World Series they had Cole Hamels, Joe Blanton and Jamie Moyer and maybe Kyle Kendrick. Hell, I don’t know.
Since then, they had Cliff Lee, Pedro Martinez, Cole Hamels and somebody and lost to the Yankees.
Most recently, they had the great Roy Halladay, the slightly less great Roy Oswalt, an improved Cole Hamels and regrettably, Joe Blanton, and got their @$$es handed to them by Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Jonathan Sanchez and Maddison Bumgarner… the best rotation in baseball.
And when all 30 teams take the field on Opening Day 2011, the Giants will still have the better pitching staff than even our beloved Braves, not to mention the Phillies who are probably doomed to failure if these rushed comparisons to the great ones of the past continue to pile up, which they more than likely will.
And did I mention I hate the Giants?
Heisenberg
December 15th, 2010
1:50 pm
The very last line of Ken Rosenthal’s column suggests the Braves talked to Brewers about Lorenzo Cain
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Matt-Garza-Zack-Grienke-tampa-bay-rays-kansas-city-royals-mlb-trade-options-12122010
So I click on the link for Lorenzo Cain’s name ..
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/lorenzo-cain/778836
Check out that photo!
GSU Eagle 91
December 15th, 2010
1:53 pm
As good as all of these staffs were/are…..
In the end it comes down to situational hitting, stealing bases, bunting over runners on first, etc….The little things the Braves could NOT do…year after year in the playoffs. I’ll never get over 8 straight World Series losses by 1 run! 1……and all were low scoring contests…..
The Phillies failed in 2010 vs SF not because of their pitching, but because they could not score runs with 2 outs..Just like the 1991-2005 Braves…..How frustrating…..
That’s why we have 1 WS title…Our pitching was stellar!
Wake up Wren
December 15th, 2010
1:55 pm
Its time to wheel and deal……………..Hall, Cain J Upton, Greninke pick two and lets play.
FoulTip
December 15th, 2010
1:57 pm
The signing of Neagle at the end of his first season with the Braves was a mistake. His awful performance in the World Series was one of the reasons we loss. It reminds me of another addition from Pittsburg, McLouth.
bry22
December 15th, 2010
2:00 pm
GOOD BUT:
Hamels 12-11
Oswalt 13-13
Lee 12-9
NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!!
Observer
December 15th, 2010
2:05 pm
Not sure about the pitching but their ownership sure as heck trumps ours
Observer
December 15th, 2010
2:06 pm
Im afraid its going to be a very very very long year for the braves next year
matt
December 15th, 2010
2:07 pm
I think everybody is overreacting a little about the Phillies rotation. I’m not stupid, they’re definitely the best rotation in baseball right now. But Cliff Lee is 32 and only has 102 wins. He’s been great at times, don’t get me wrong, but he’s been pretty hittable at times, too. Look at his career numbers, not HOF-type stuff. Same can be said about Oswalt.
Like I said, they’re great and I was definitely a little worried when the Phils got Lee, but, better than Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz? Gimme a break.
skip
December 15th, 2010
2:08 pm
Today’s Wall Street Journal made this interesting comparison: The best four man rotation in history, based on ERA compared with the league ERA would be the 2011 Phillies. Halladay(2.44), Oswalt(2.76), Hamels(3.06) Lee(3.18) equal and ERA of 2.84, whereas the 2010 league ERA was 4.37, a difference of -1.53. Second best, the 1998 Braves with a combined ERA of 2.75 against a league mark of 4.23, a -1.48 difference.
Mike
December 15th, 2010
2:08 pm
These comparisons are stupid. History will judge. This is just another dumb off season sensation to talk about because there’s no real baseball yet. Looking at history, hey, I’m a Braves fan. I think our guys were the best. Baltimore in ‘71 was unconcious. And, I was blown away in ‘66 by the LA rotation. But, I’ll take our guys. Philly in 2011 doesn’t exist yet. Personally, I’ll wait and see.
Mitchell
December 15th, 2010
2:17 pm
Of course, the ‘66 Dodgers got swept by the Orioles who were five years from having four 20 games winners.
And what happened to the four 20 game winners? They got beat by Steve Blass and the ‘71 Pirates.
So there you have it.
g-dub
December 15th, 2010
2:27 pm
I don,t think that the Phillies rotation will be together for 10 years but I do think that they are better suited for the playoffs than the 90’s braves. Maddux and Glavine threw 80mph on good days and in the playoffs when the batter is totally locked into the pitcher they would get battered. That is why they only have 1 ring, the year when Toronto fooled Lonnie Smith on the bases if Smith scores like he should have series over, Bobby Cox can’t get out there and run the bases for you or get a clutch hit for you but he can put you in a position to if you hit or run or catch maybe you win the series. Bobby was a great coach and a fine example of how the game should be played.
P. Bull Terrier
December 15th, 2010
2:34 pm
According to the media, whatever is happening today is always the greatest in history.
Phillies – greatest pitching staff ever.
Cam Newton – greatest college football player ever.
Jason Hayward – greatest prospect ever.
Paul Johnson – greatest college football coach ever.
Lebron James – greatest basketball player ever.
Brett Favre – greatest sports record ever.
A year ago, or a year from now, the names on the list would have been, or will be, different.
gcs
December 15th, 2010
2:37 pm
I’d have to give the edge to the Braves because of age:
Of the big three, Halladay and Oswalt are both 33. Cliff Lee is 32. Cole Hamels is 26 but far from being an ace.
When the Young Guns first became teammates, they were Maddux 26, Glavine 27, Smoltz 25, Avery 22.
.
Jwood
December 15th, 2010
2:38 pm
Who is going to win the lottery tomorrow?
Um…isn’t it a little too early to ask a question like that. Let them play it out. All this sport-writer hand-wringing may seem like all in good fun at first, but there just comes a point where you have to be patient and let the stats stack up after the fact.
Space Monkey
December 15th, 2010
2:41 pm
The thing most people aren’t seeing is that this is FOUR great pitchers. Four aces. The Braves only had that for a few years in 1993 with Avery and in 1996 and 1997 with Neagle. Four aces is a really tough hand to beat. It’s also really bad for us that two of these guys are lefties. I figure they’ll get north of 65 wins and 90 decisions. The only thing that will stop the Phils from repeating is injury. And they have a much better and more balanced offense than the Braves have ever had. They seem to score at will. I don’t think they lose much from that because of Werth. His replacement is likely a better all-around player.
FalconUGAFan
December 15th, 2010
2:43 pm
No
ABraveFan2
December 15th, 2010
3:04 pm
Let’s talk again after this foursome wins 14 NL Pennants in a row and goes to 4 World Series….oops I guess we won’t talk, because it won’t happen. Next article please!
LivinInAL
December 15th, 2010
3:05 pm
I think we should wait till this group of superstars have pitched a season for the same team before comparing them to anyone.
kyle
December 15th, 2010
3:06 pm
stupid article……don’t even need to read it………..especially when the front page headline ends with…..”Is it too early to tell”
Bradley……sometimes your lack of journalistic skills is astounding!
Phillies, Class of the NL
December 15th, 2010
3:06 pm
howdy folks, its been some time since I’ve checked in on you loveable rednecks…the Phillies are truly incredible aren’t they? what are the braves up to these days?
kyle
December 15th, 2010
3:12 pm
Then in just scrolling through it…..see that he has referenced the likes of espn idiot Buster Olney and the like! Give me a break…..as that fool or Tom Verducci knows anymore about baseball than the rest of us!
That’s comical as I would be embarrassed to be quoting sources like those two! Now all we need is the moranic Ken Rosenthal to spout off some B.S. that he makes up as he goes along like…..”I have the latest trade rumor to report in that the this team and that team have not talked to each about any players” Damn idiots….go away!!!!
Jinx Master
December 15th, 2010
3:17 pm
Once again Bradley another inept article, that pitching staff only won one ring! You can make a much better case for the 95 to 2000 Yankees with David Cone, Andy Pettitte, David Wells & Roger Clemens. During that span they won 4 rings even though they weren’t together for all 6 years. Please get over, that overrated staff! Oh yeah those great managers Bobby Cox & Leo Mazzone wore Steve Avery & Kent Merkers arms out! LoL One ring!
Dawg '88
December 15th, 2010
4:00 pm
Remind me again….how many League Championship pennants the Phillies rotation has won together? How many World Series won? How many CY Young have been won by the two groups?
Phillies 2
Braves 6 or 7?
Gold Gloves? Phillies 0, Maddux alone…10 in a row! Thats part of the game.
Silver Slugger Awards? Phillies 0 Braves 2 or 3?
What a stupid debate? One is accomplished…the other done nothing yet to join them in such company. The Phillies Suck Anyway…Hamels and Halladay and Oswalt together won what last year? the NL East….Hell the Giants rotation took care of them and won everything. The Phillies aren’t even able to match them let alone the 90s Braves rotation!
g-dub
December 15th, 2010
4:06 pm
By the way I know that I am off the subject but where is the uproar for Lee joining a championship caliber team like there was when Lebron joined the Heat. I kinda liken Lebron, DWade and Bosh to Halladay, Hamels, Lee, Rollins, Howard, Utley, Victorino. I’m just saying
Go Ducks!
December 15th, 2010
4:09 pm
Braves have 3 that will be in HOF— Phils have 2 at best. Braves win Braves win
TOMY FOURNIER
December 15th, 2010
4:18 pm
Who care about Phillies rotation????….I’m Atlantas Fan….and I care about Atlantas rotation…and is not to bad..will see!!!
Trey
December 15th, 2010
4:21 pm
Mark, I believe it can be compared to the Braves rotation of the 90s, but I also believe the Braves had the better rotation. The Braves had Maddux that won three out of four Cy Youngs in a row with Atlanta, John Smoltz, won one, and Glavine won two. Smoltz became an exceptional closer after he hurt his arm, Maddux career ERA with the Braves was in the mid to high 2’s, until he really started aging and it jumped into the 3s. However, Maddux wasn’t called the professor for nothing. They all had their own pitching styles which makes the rotation tough, and I believe that the Phillies rotation is no joke.
Christopher Chance
December 15th, 2010
4:43 pm
What matters most is what’s going to happen in 2011. The Phillies are primed to DOMINATE in 2011. I see no reason why the Phillies wont have more complete games than there rest of baseball COMBINED in 2011. That in itself will save a bullpen as questionable as the Phillies.
bravesfan
December 15th, 2010
4:47 pm
For the person questioning:
Bonds signed with the Giants Dec. 8, 1992
Maddux signed with the Braves Dec. 9, 1992
JS booked talked about how they sat around a table and discussed if they would go after Maddux or Bonds and all agreed Maddux. When they reached agreement with Bonds, who really wanted to come to the Braves, he signed with SF.
When the Phillies pitching staff, and I say ALL 5 equal the number of wins just by the Big 3 of Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz, talk to me then about the best rotation ever in the majors. Just so you know, and only counting Atlanta numbers that is over 650 wins.
bravesfan
December 15th, 2010
4:48 pm
Correction above, when the Braves reached agreement with Maddux, Bonds went ahead and signed with SF.
Lee didn't make it a show
December 15th, 2010
4:50 pm
G-dub, your boy Lebron started shopping his “talents” during the middle of last bball season and then went on national tv to tell everybody who he was signing with. On the contrary, Lee took his trade from Philly to Seattle like a man then went to Texas and along with J Hamilton carried them to the WS. He didn’t make it about him. Just sayin
bravesfan
December 15th, 2010
4:50 pm
Trey, Maddux won 4 Cy Youngs in a row. 1992 was with the Cubs, 1993, 1994 and 1995 was with the Braves. (Even though the 1994 season ended with the strike, awards were still given)
Lee didn't make it a show
December 15th, 2010
4:52 pm
Nice try on the racist angle though
Ronald Millsaps
December 15th, 2010
4:53 pm
You certainly can make the argument, but here’s you another caveat: Atlanta CULTIVATED its rotation, sans Greg Maddux, whereas the Phillies bought its. Big difference. HUGE difference. Signing a Cliff Lee for millions is not the same as developing a young arm and harnessing the talent in question, so if we’re going to attach a team logo by a rotation, let’s not slap the Phillies’ logo by Cliff Lee, any more than I’d slap the Red Sox’s logo by John Smoltz.
Secondly, I’m glad the Phillies got Lee. They’re my second-favorite team, and I’m glad the NL East acquired/kept MAJOR talent this offseason– Uggla, Werth, Lee, etc., whereas the greatest check-writers/least-cultivators of them all, the Yankees, walked away with no new acquisitions and, furthermore, a rarity— a focus on home-grown talent—— in this case, though, signing Derek Jeter, perhaps the most-overrated player in the game’s history after Cal Ripken, to a contract he simply doesn’t deserve… just like the Yankees didn’t deserve his whiny commentary about it all.
Let me guess; Liberty Media is sulking now that the Phillies got Lee——— as if it couldn’t have dished out some more cash and acquired more talent. Stupid, apathetic ownership. Honestly, ownership knows about as much about baseball as, well, the overall atmosphere at Turner Field on the typical gameday.
Many speak of Bobby’s career and speak 99.9% of his managing and ignore his work as a general manager. In regard to the former, you can argue that he’s the greatest ever. In regard to the latter, he has absolutely no competition. Many overlook the fact that he left the team in very-similar fashion to its early-nineties, Avery-Glavine-Smoltz state, i.e. Julio Teheran.
Take a good look at the Braves’ rotation: I’m not sure that the Phillies’ rotation even has the edge this year.
On a different note, the headline about Michael Vick is light– like a lot of other unfortunately-irreverent aspects of society, and in response to the headline about Vick and Bobby Petrino, Petrino was the wrong man for the job, whether he skipped out like he did or not. Jim Mora, Jr. was the wrong man for the job as well. Dan Reeves might play favorites and be vindictive, but at least he’s smart about football. He let Vick do his thing as opposed to confining him to the West Coast offense— unquestionably the WORST offense he could be used in.
bravesfan
December 15th, 2010
4:55 pm
Take the primary 4 starters for each team last year and you have:
Braves starters 56 wins
Phillies starters 51 wins
bravesfan
December 15th, 2010
4:56 pm
Ronald,
Well Vick only made the playoffs twice, once under Reeves, once under Mora. So what does that say about the player.
bat1994
December 15th, 2010
5:00 pm
Just remember, Philly’s lineup is going to be left-handed dominant w/ the loss of Werth. If they have to face a lefty pitcher they are screwed.
bob
December 15th, 2010
5:02 pm
Little early for that debate. Who is to say all 4 will be on the roster in April?
Rockdale Brave
December 15th, 2010
5:04 pm
There is no way that this comparison has any meaning or significance. There is too much time interval. The Phillies staff has not even pitched together yet so you are dealing with past individual records. Surely Mark this being your second article in two days about the Phillies staff, you will find something new for your next one.
bob
December 15th, 2010
5:04 pm
bravesfan – Maybe not – Bobby Cox turned down a Barry Bonds for Andres Thomas trade in 1988.
Jinx Master
December 15th, 2010
5:11 pm
All this talk about Cy Youngs none of that staff was as good in the postseason when it counted(one ring), except for Smoltz! I bet they would trade a few of those awards, in for a few more rings. By the way Manuel already has a ring, with only half of this dominant staff Hamels & Blanton LOL!
Trey
December 15th, 2010
5:15 pm
Bravesfan, that’s what I said. I said Maddux won three out of four in a row in Atlanta.
We'll have to see
December 15th, 2010
5:22 pm
From 1991 to 1998 the Cy Young was won 6 out of 8 years by Braves pitchers. 1 of the years it wasn’t won by a Braves pitcher in that span Maddux won it with the Cubs. So that’s 7 out of 8 years. That is complete and total pitching dominance.
The rotation in Philly has won 3 Cy Youngs between 2 pitchers over a period of 7 years. They need to collect another 3 and let me know when someone other than Halladay or Lee wins one. Then we might look at the question again.
So far as right now … I’ll take the Braves # 2, 3, & 4 pitchers against their # 2, 3 & 4 any day of the week and like my chances.
Right now I imagine the pithching rotation would stack up like this
1. Halladay 1. Lowe
2. Lee 2. Hudson
3. Oswalt 3. Jurrjens
4. Hamels 4. Hanson
There are so many more stats you could look at, but the current Philly pitching staff couldn’t carry those 90’s Braves pitchers golf clubs.
Jinx Master
December 15th, 2010
5:23 pm
Even if Liberty Media had went out & signed Carl Crawford or Jason Werth, hell even if they would have made a bid on southern boy Cliff Lee. You writers from AJC & Braves bloggers would still whine & cry about what next years team doesn’t have! That so called greatest pitching staff spoiled you crybabies & have only one ring to show for it. Think about it the Florida Marlins have 2 trophies you whiners!
donny
December 15th, 2010
5:37 pm
Who cares?
Lincecum
Cain
Sanchez
Bumgarner
Is better. And doesn’t choke in the World Series.
ben
December 15th, 2010
5:39 pm
That would depend on whether the Phillies pitchers get that foot outside strike call that all the Brave pitchers did in that era.
SmittyATL
December 15th, 2010
5:40 pm
The Braves’ rotation of the 1990’s and the Phillies projected rotation of 2011 are/were both very impressive. But neither can match the Orioles’ rotation of 1971. Palmer, McNally, Cuellar, and Dobson — 20-game winners all.
When there’s another staff with four 20-game winners in one season, we can have a debate. Until then, no contest.
N8
December 15th, 2010
5:46 pm
I think in terms of a one year window (maybe two), this Phillies rotation is very comparable and maybe better suited to dominate in October than any and all of the Braves staffs (other than 91-91 when Smoltz and Avery were every bit as good in October as Lee, Halladay, Lincecum, etc… were last year).
But Leo is right. The difference is that the trio of Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz were together for a decade, with very good “role” players (Avery, Millwood, Neagle, Schmidt, Leibrandt etc…) serving as the 4th starter at various stages.
It’s going to be hard for the 2011 Phillies to be any more dominant than the 98 Braves were (all 5 guys – Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Neagle and Millwood – had 16+ wins) and only Millwood had an ERA over 4.00. But if any staff could do it, it’s going to be that one.
But playing in that park for 81 games might make them seem not as statistically as good. Hard to say at this point.
But here’s the thing. As good as those guys are (and they are all great, consistent, proven and other than Oswalt at times, pretty healthy)…..
The Braves staff is no slouch either. Especially if Jurrjens returns to 2009 form (Why can’t we assume he won’t do just that? After all, Hamels returned to form after an underachieving, injury plagued season in 2009).
Hudson? Right there in the Cy Young running until running out of gas in September and then proved he was still tough as nails in October againts the Giants.
Hanson? Save a few bad games (he had less “bad games” than Halladay did last year), he was dominant. Despite the local bloggers complaining about him being overrated. Once he figures out how to consistently get into the 7th inning and beyond? Perenniel Cy Young candidate.
Jurrjens? The previous two seasons before last years disappointing/injured season, JJJ was arguably one of MLB’s top 5 pitchers that nobody talked about. If he returns to that 2008-2009 form, he’ll be as good as anybody can throw against him. Anybody.
Lowe? Certainly not in the category of the Phillies fab-4. But Come September and October last year? Nobody in the NL was better. Add to that, other than the now bolstered Phillies rotation, no team can boast as good of a 4th starter as Lowe anywhere in MLB.
Minor/Beachy/Teheran? At this point, it doesn’t matter which one of these guys “wins” the 5th starter job. (more than likely will be Minor), there is 3 really good options and if one of the wins it, that means they looked good in ST and earned. If they falter along the way, one of the others will be ready to step in.
So while the “debate” is about Braves rotations of yesteryear vs. the 2011 Phillies rotation. Let’s not forget that in 2009 with Vazquez, JJJ and Hanson rolling (and Lowe racking up W’s), then having Vazquez replaced with Hudson’s return, the 2009 and moving forward version of the Braves rotation was comparable to any Braves rotations of years past (if only going one season at a time – not longevity).
The Phillies having this great staff isn’t going to be what wins them the NL East. Nope. The Braves pitching is almost as good and the bullpen is probably better.
It’s going to be the COMBINATION of the Phillies pitching, and their potent lineup (and the fact that they actually play defense), that allows them to run away with the NL east.
If the Braves miraculously play stellar defense in 2011 and Chipper Jones is healthy enough to hit 20 HR? The Braves might shock the world. But I’m not counting on it.
Braves will like contend to the end for the WC and probably win it (likely finishing 5-10 games behind the PHillies – like always) and then I’ll take our chances if we meet up in the NLCS. After all, our pitchers held their own against the eventual WS champion Giants vaunted staff (and it’s every bit as good as the Phillies staff). Save a Brooks Conrad error and a horrible call at 2B on Buster’s SB the Braves might have swept the champs right out of the playoffs.
The Phillies didn’t need Cliff Lee to win in October. It’s overkill. But having a 4-deep rotation of Aces pretty much guarantees they’ll GET TO October again and that’s half the battle.
Let the battle begin!
(btw: I’d give the edge on a one season basis to the Phillies over any Braves staff – but barely. But they’re going to have to stay together and dominate for AT LEAST 5 years before I even remotely put them into a category of a great rotation, rather than just hired guns).
Trey
December 15th, 2010
5:47 pm
Smitty, who?
Trey
December 15th, 2010
5:50 pm
Smitty, that was out of sarcasm. I know of Jim Palmer. However, Braves had a better rotation.
SmittyATL
December 15th, 2010
6:00 pm
Mark: Ray Miller was not the Orioles’ pitching coach when they had the four 20-game winners in 1971. George Bamberger was.
Miller did later coach an excellent Orioles rotation that included Palmer, Mike Flanagan, Scott McGregor, Dennis Martinez, and Steve Stone.
Heisenberg
December 15th, 2010
6:02 pm
Smitty I earlier posted I though the 71 Orioles were the best ever based primarily on the four 20 game winners. But I would not go so far as to say only when another team has the same can they be considered better. Keep in mind in those days most staffs had only a 4 man rotation so each starter had 40-41 opportunities each season meaning he only had to be the winning pitcher 50% of the time.
Today with everyone using a 5 man rotation there are only 32-33 starts for each pitcher. Meaning to win 20 games he would have to win 66.7% of all starts. That combined with more liberal use of bullpens is the reason for so few 20 games winners anymore. A pitcher today with 16-17 wins is comparable to the 20 game winners of the past. And even today, I cannot come up with any team in recent memory to have four 16 game winners.
PS. We may never again see a 30 game winner because of this.
SmittyATL
December 15th, 2010
6:11 pm
Good point, Heisenberg. When Earl Weaver was managing, he would sometimes use a fifth starter as a spot starter, but never as a regular part of the rotation. That was the era when baseball transitioned from 4- to 5-man rotations. Weaver resisted. His explanation? “My first four guys are better than the fifth.”
Of course, pitchers’ careers didn’t typically last as long, either. The Orioles’ rotation was better than the Braves’ ’90s rotation, but only for one year. Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz had better longevity than the three Orioles (excluding Jim Palmer).
Try putting today’s multi-million dollar pitchers in a four-man rotation, and I think you’ll see quite an uproar from the players’ union!
Tweets that mention The debate: Does Philly's rotation trump the Braves of the '90s? | Mark Bradley -- Topsy.com
December 15th, 2010
6:12 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Scott Munn, Georgia Bulldogs-UGA. Georgia Bulldogs-UGA said: http://bit.ly/WireUG The debate: Does Philly’s rotation trump Braves of the ’90s? #NCAA #Sports http://bit.ly/fCMNkM [...]
kral
December 15th, 2010
6:13 pm
To Markie all most jumped to conclusions..when I saw the title…but read it and skimmed..Enjoyed your article also N8..seriously..i am not counting on what might happen but I sure wish Santa would deliver on my Braves wish list..previously posted
Nickgranite
December 15th, 2010
6:16 pm
When one of them cracks the top ten in all time wins (Maddux at number 8 with 355) another with 305 wins and still another with over 200 wins, we can revisit this column.
Kevin
December 15th, 2010
6:16 pm
lol…this should not even be a serious question….Look at the ERA of those braves pitchers…IT WAS DOMINATE. period.
NO MORE BOBBY
December 15th, 2010
6:50 pm
As hard as the Phillies try they still only have one World Series championship under Charlie Manuel. Remind you of a certain team from the 90’s?
vermont 39
December 15th, 2010
6:52 pm
Is this the second coming of Jesus!!!
PUHLEEEEZ!!!!!
They have to do it for years and years…3 HoF-ers are BRAVES’ Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz don’t see any HoF -ers in that group …yet. Paper Tigers untill they put in a decade of work…together!!!!
Billyboy
December 15th, 2010
6:58 pm
Does Philly’s rotation trump Braves of the ’90s? . . . question by Mark Bradley
Are you kidding? You are asking does a staff for a decade compare to a possible 1-2 year pitching staff.
Next think Mark will be asking is, does Obama compare to George Washington and Abraham?Lincoln.
Brave New World
December 15th, 2010
6:58 pm
The Phillies going into 2011 have a very good rotation, but the Braves’ trio of Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz are all future Hall of Famers, something none of the Phillies’ pitchers are at this point. Halladay is the lone member of the Phillies current staff that is headed to a Hall of Fame career if he has another 7 great seasons. Oswalt has been very good, but will likely fall short. 2-time all star and highly overpaid Cliff Lee with a lifetime 3.85 ERA and only 2 15+ win seasons will not be in the hall, and the only way Cole Hamels gets into the hall is with a paid admission.
Gustopher
December 15th, 2010
7:00 pm
Here is Fox Sports take
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/lists/MLBs-best-pitching-rotations-of-all-time-121410#photo-title=1926%20Philadelphia%20Athletics&photo=23371042
JJhonson
December 15th, 2010
7:20 pm
If the Braves are still looking to dump D. Lowe’s salary, and let’s face it our team is ALWAYS looking to cut spending… I hope Frank Wren has called or will call the NYY in light of the fact that Cliff Lee did not follow the Yankees rule and sign with them for the most money.
I personally think Lowe is a good pitcher, but the Braves mantra the last year or so has been to get rid of his salary. The Yanks need pitching and might be willing to talk… and it’s not like Lowe is unfordable to them.
C’mon Frank Wren, be proactive please.
otisnixonsmokescrack!
December 15th, 2010
8:11 pm
…i guess mo should’ve retired after blowing game 7 in 2001? giants fans sound like phillies fans(i’m one) who smikred when the yanks signed c.c. then in the ws(2009) the laughs stopped. the phils pitched more than good enough to win last yr. the giants won. i tip my hat. one diff was blanton in game 4. blanton ble lead. lee had a bad game 1. and had a good game 5. but he got no run support. the phils didn’t hit all last season. not just in the playoffs. look at how poorly they hit vs the reds for example.
-the phils quiet bats were of no real suprise to die hard phils fans. local media knew this too. it’s all they talked about before the playoffs began.
rollins was garbage all season. mostly due to injuries. utley was slowed by injuries. howard was having an mvp season untill he sprained his ankle. werth was garbage w/risp. shane had a bad season except for hrs. polanco was never the same after he got hit in his elbow vs the braves. he played with a bone chips most of the yr. even ruiz was hit last game of the season vs braves.
-this all comes into play when you play deep into october. the redsox won in 2004, but it took them til 2007 to win it all again. it happens. the braves had us buried. the phils though, didn’t fold like the mets do. philly showed a lot of heart. the phils won 97 games w/o out hitting a lick. imagine if they had hit just a little more. forget about all the hype. the giants have a great staff. ditto for braves. with lee we can now match them stud for stud. no more joe blanton types in a game
4. but the phils have better hitters. again the phils were o was god awful last season. even w/o werth guys like chase and howard will bounce back.. the giants won the 1st ws in sf and now they rule the universe?? get outta here. now the yanks,boston, tex, atl, phils have no shot vs the unstoppable giants… get real.
MitchC
December 15th, 2010
8:14 pm
Mark, while Philly’s rotation next year will be mighty good, we can’t yet match them up with the Braves. Although the Braves won “only” one WS, let’s look at the numbers.
Before Smoltz hurt himself for the 2000 season, and moved to the pen, the rotation of Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz, from 1993 to 1999, had four Cy Young Awards, a World Series championship, three NL titles, and several 20 win seasons. They weren’t “potential”, they were results.
The Phillies have put together a nice run, with the four straight division titles, and two WS appearances in the last four years, but.. it would seem to me that they need a few more division titles, Cy Young Awards, and another WS title, to trump the Braves.
They will be a good rotation no doubt. As I said, Philly wins the East easily in 2011 unless they have major injuries, but.. let’s see what they accomplish in terms of the other areas I mentioned, before we put them on par with the division titles era rotations of the Braves.
JEB
December 15th, 2010
8:30 pm
Here was our great rotation:
In 1993 we were beat out by the Phillies in the NLCS
In 1994 (unless we had a miracle end of season
we would have been knocked out of division by
Montreal
1995: we all know what happened
1996: Knocked out by Yankees (after up 2-0)
1997: beat out by wild card Marlins in NLCS
1998: knocked out by Padres
1999: swept in WS by Yankees
That was the 90’s with that staff.
So, just because the Phillies have this staff
does not guarantee success & going all the way!
dylan
December 15th, 2010
8:41 pm
2 Reasons why the Braves staff of the 90s-early 00s was better than the current Phils staff:
1.) Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery, Neagle, Millwood, all pitched during the steroid era and still had better numbers than H20 + Lee. The hitters now dont compare to the hitters of the late 90s. The prime of the Braves pitching staff was during the peak of the steroid era, when offensive numbers were at their highest in the entire history of baseball
2.) Those Braves pitchers were much better hitters, bunters, and fielders than these current Phils. Maddux has won 18 gold gloves, while glavine and smoltz were also exceptional fielders. In addition, they all were great hitting pitchers, as glavine won 4 silver sluggers and smoltz won one.
Overall, the 1998 Braves starting rotation is the greatest pitching staff in the history of the game. Period.
Devin
December 15th, 2010
9:12 pm
no way can we compare braves to phils look at these cy young award winners in such a steriod ere and way better pitchers all over the leagues in the 1990’s
BRAVES Phils
1991: Tom glavine Cole Hamels: NEVER
1992: Greg Maddux 2003: Roy Halladay
1993: Greg Maddux 2010: Roy Halladay
1994: Greg Maddux 2008: Cliff Lee
1995: Greg Maddux Roy Oswalt: NEVER
1996 John Smoltz
1998: Tom Glavine
Oh ya by the way cole hamels is there 4th starter we had denny Neagle. Our 4th starter lead the leagues in wins in 1997 going 20-5 with a 2.97 era. also this is arguably the prime of the steriod era. Cole hamels will probasbly go 13-7 with a 3.50 era. Overall BRAVES have easily the better pitching staff to bad phils nothing will be like the 1990’s Braves. Sorry phils
ph
December 15th, 2010
9:25 pm
I wouldn’t be praising the Phillies too much too soon. Lee is getting older and more prone to injury. Then as great as he could be, he may just be just like how Mike Hampton was for the majority of his tenure with us. Oswalt knows he is most likely on the way out as Lee’s salary rises way up next year. So in 2012, their 4 ACES could be 2.5 ACES.
PHIL
December 15th, 2010
11:49 pm
I’d say………..who cares? The staff they have in 2011 is going to be so much better than anyone else they should just give them the title and save all the electricity it takes to turn on the lights at the major league stadiums and save the gas from the millions of cars that fans drive to the games. Lets just start on 2012 season and see if anyone can better them then.
NashPhil
December 15th, 2010
11:55 pm
Unfortunately the Braves rotation also had to pitch in the postseason. Maddux 11-14 lifetime, 6-11 after the division series.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/maddugr01.shtml
14 postseasons (13 really) and one WS? Really? Philly is already there with about 3-4 good shots at another.
The Braves teams of 1991-2004 were generally built for the regular season, to grind two out of three wins against lesser teams in a series. No real closer, no true leaders. No guy to hand the ball to in a Game 7. Maddux??
There was only one really good HOMEGROWN Atlanta pitcher, Glavine. Others signed as FAs or traded for, so get off the high horse that Philly signed ONE FA. Magic of Braves used to be knowing whom to trade, whom to keep. Now they’re throwing in Adam Wainwright in trades for one year rentals. And I didn’t hear anyone complaining when TT owned the Braves and you could spend whatever you wanted. Hint: try going to games, don’t complain about Liberty. Playoff games that are not sold out? Sad.
Lifelong Dawg
December 16th, 2010
1:19 am
Shouldn’t the Phillie Phour have to pitch at least one season together before we start dumping accolades on them? That’s what’s wrong with sports, and sportswriters, today? The game has already been played as far as they’re concerned. Same thing happened with the Heat in the NBA. The media had already conceded the trophy to them and the first tip-off was still months away. There’s a difference between speculation and “pre”warding. Oh well, I hope the words taste good for those who end up eating them.
BB FAN
December 16th, 2010
1:28 am
Turner field holds 50,000 people, Citizen Bank Park holds 43,000. Atlanta has a population of less than 600,000. Philadelphia has a population of about 1.6 million. I’d say it’s a little easier for Philly to fill a smaller stadium.
BB FAN
December 16th, 2010
1:38 am
Atlanta traded for Smoltz when he was a minor league pitcher. He was developed by Atlanta as much as Detroit. Glavine was drafted by Atlanta, Avery was drafted by Atlanta. The Braves signing Maddux as a free agent to go with a homegrown pitching staff is a little different than Philly trading for Oswalt (an AS pitcher making 16 mill a year), Halladay (a CY young pitcher making 20 mill a year) and signing Lee at 24 mill a year to go with their one homegrown pitcher Hamels.
Philadelphia has become the Yankees of the NL. That’s fine, they can afford it. But people have to admit that they are trying to buy a WS title or two. The Yanks bought 4 of them (I consider the 96 Yanks to be legit). I consider all those Yankee teams as great, but I also know that they bought those titles. Next year’s Phillies team should be great. We’ll see if they can win a WS or two. Being a Braves fan, I obviously hope they don’t.
serbok
December 16th, 2010
1:41 am
I have to agree with~
Trade Nate for a Bag of Balls
Shud have more than 1 world series~! victory~!
With that “Staff?”
The Bravos~ shuda been listed?? where?
Bobby~ was~ a Great GM!!!! Terrible Field manager!
BB FAN
December 16th, 2010
1:45 am
Maddux may have been 11-14 in the post season, but he also had an ERA of 3.27, not much over his career of 3.16. Glavine was 14-16 in the post season but had a 3.30 ERA, lower than his career of 3.54. The Braves never really had a great offense. They struggled to score runs in many of those losses. Smoltz was so dominant in the post season (15-4 with a 2.67 ERA), he didn’t need many runs to work with.
Elitist
December 16th, 2010
8:05 am
That Phillies rotation looks great. I, being a Braves fan, hope they stay healthy and each lose 20 games.
Warren Spahn
December 16th, 2010
8:33 am
Let’s wait about five years or so and see what the statistics show. But, for right now it is clearly Maddux over Halladay, Glavine over Lee, Smoltz easily over Oswalt, and Neagle (or Avery in his prime) over Hamel. When you look at it objectively, it isn’t really close.
Phillistein
December 16th, 2010
9:14 am
I know it makes for good debate in the offseason.
But frankly, I could give a flyin fig about what is or isn’t considered the best rotation of all time. It’s too subjective a topic anyway.
Are we talking for a full year, matching up careers vs. careers etc.
However, as I said – I could care less – I’m trying to win a pennant in 2011.
Naturally – the Braves of the 90’s, with 3 HOF would rate highly in any discussion. But, on paper (Key word there is PAPER) the Phillies of 2011 seem to have the rotation to beat….in 2011 !!!
How many days til pitchers and catchers?
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
9:44 am
The Phillies will be the team to beat in 2011 – and beat them we will.
Kentavo
December 16th, 2010
9:59 am
I’ve gone from being stunned by the Lee acquisition to an attitude of – bully for them – now all the expectations are on the Phillies, and we’ll fly under the radar and make the playoffs anyway. Wild Card is fine with me. If Braves stay healthy, will be very dangerous team. I don’t think we can underestimate the value of all the young guys getting playoff experience last year. Yes, it was a losing cause, but even as decimated as the lineup was, we were oh so close to knocking off the Giants.
That being said, it sure would be nice if Wren would go out and get some of the lower-priced guys (like Nady and Wiggington) that keep disappearing on the market.
And some speed would be nice, too.
Hope Fredi is more aggressive than Bobby when it comes to playing small ball.
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
10:14 am
The Phillies addiction to overpriced free agents will take the joy out of winning. Oh, they’ll win quite a few games, but the expactations are so high now that anything short of a World Series ring will make for a dissapointing year in Philly. What a pity, their fine fans have no where to go but down.
Phillistein
December 16th, 2010
10:30 am
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
10:14 am
The Phillies addiction to overpriced free agents will take the joy out of winning. Oh, they’ll win quite a few games, but the expactations are so high now that anything short of a World Series ring will make for a dissapointing year in Philly. What a pity, their fine fans have no where to go but down
*********************************************************************************************************
Actually…………………..no.
Yeah, I guess anytime you think you have a great team, make the playoffs and come up short…….especially to the eventual winner, it’s somewhat disappointing.
However, we had a great year last year. I’m not a season ticket holder but I went to about 15 games or so. Had a blast frankly.
Bought standing room tickets most of the time ($14-$16) great food at a fair price, reasonable parking. I live in the burbs and was home 30 minutes after the game ended. (Always found a seat somewhere)
CBP is a GREAT place to watch a game, every game a sellout, crowd is pumped – dunno – over the past few years it’s been a GREAT place to be a baseball fan.
So that you know – if I’ve gone to a few less games in year’s past it’s only because the kids are grown.
Yup – winning a WS title would have been nice but………….still had a wonderful year. And every indication is that they’ll be competitive again this year – so it will be more of the same.
So, your rationalization about the state of mind of Phillies phans sounds like someone from 700 miles away that didn’t have as much fun as we did.
Whatever
Mikey
December 16th, 2010
10:40 am
After watching the Phillies lineup choke against the Giants, I’m surprised they let Werth go and have not signed any talent on the offense. Ryan will not see a fastball over the plate all year and may K 200 times. Prediction Brave fans: A healthy Heyward out/stats $20m Ryan!
Phillistein
December 16th, 2010
10:46 am
By the way…………insofar as your statement that winning won’t be much fun because we’re addicted to “high priced free aganets”
Firstly – wrong
Secondly – wrong
Thirdly – as the team has been around since 1883 and our “addiction” to high priced free agents has been a recent occurance (18 months?) I’ll have to get back to you on the withdrawl aspects.
But if you think we’re sad because of what has transpired with the payroll – you’d be wrong.
jason
December 16th, 2010
10:51 am
has any one noticed that over the last 2 regular seasons Derek Lowe has more wins and the same losses at Cliff Lee? I am not saying Lowe is as good as Lee, but I think we are over valueing Lee considerably. He has played with better offenses than Lowe during this time as well.
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
11:00 am
Good point Jason. Derek Lowe as a starter (he also was a stand out reliever with 85 career saves) has way more wins than Lee, as many all star selections (2), and the exact same career ERA (3.85). Lee is a good pitcher but not a great one. At $24 million per season, he is easily the most overpriced number 3 starter in baseball history.
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
11:04 am
Braves winning NL East in 2011 = joy, excitement, and celebration in Atlanta; Phillies finishing 2nd in NL East in 2011 = sadness, bitter disappointment, depression in Philly.
Rebel
December 16th, 2010
11:06 am
Better than Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz? In the last couple years Oswalt, Halladay, Hamels and Lee haven’t really been better than Hanson, Hudson, JJ and Lowe. In the last two years they have started 255 games, they have won 107 an lost 83 games but the “team” lost 148 of the games they started for .420%. Our Braves in the same two years (Hudson, JJ, Hanson and Lowe) have started 217 games, won 92 and lost 63 and the team went on to fail 125 games overall for a .424%. If they had a 107-83 record and we had a 92-63 meaning that we did better our winning % was .594 and theirs was .563 these last two years. So are they better than Maddux, Glavine and Smotlz? NOT!
Nick P.
December 16th, 2010
11:22 am
that exactly what I think and said earlier as well, they are great on paper, but paper does notplay the 162 games and all that goes along wth that. Id Phiilies continue to go to the playoffs for the next ten years i a row then it worked out for them and they are thebest, but that a big IF! Braves had their pitchers in their youth, Phillies in their thirties.
ABravesFan
December 16th, 2010
11:30 am
As a baseball fan, it would be interesting to see how well the Phillies’ rotation does next year. As a Braves fan, I hope it fall short of the lofty expectation. Realistically, one of them might have a down year just from the lack of run support (see KK for the Braves last year). Sure, it looks rather daunting to catch the Phillies in the NL East next year but thank goodness, we do have the Wild Card to contend for again.
Skeezix
December 16th, 2010
11:33 am
I’m more concerned about CF. The Phils have an amazing rotation, but I don’t think it will equal what the Braves did for over a decade in the 90s. I do think that by signing Lee, I would rank the current Phillies rotation ahead of the 2010 Braves. However, the 2011 Braves rotation may be better than the 2010 version because Tommy and J.J. are still learning and I think they will be even better next year. Also, Medlen has shown that he has potential to be a very solid starter. So, to all those gloating Phillies fans I’d say don’t get too cocky—baseball is never a sure thing and let’s wait and see how things look come next Sept. I believe the Braves will be in the fight for first place in the NL East.
Rebel
December 16th, 2010
11:47 am
Looking back at my comment, I guess that if we didn’t have Kawakami in our staff last year we may have finished on 1st place…
cj
December 16th, 2010
12:11 pm
ok so while everyone is worried about these two what about the giants rotation? the have lincecum, zito, and cain. and what about the deadly one the cardinals have with wainwright, carpenter, and the hot rookie Jaime garcia, plus the best hitter in pujols!!!!!
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
12:17 pm
The 2011 Phillies rotation is very good, but so is 2011 rotation of The Braves. I think Roy Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball, but Hudson is one of the best and Lowe is an innings eater who’s always good for at least 15 wins. What remains to be seen is how good a healthy Hanson and Jurgens will be. As far as the bull pen goes, The Braves have the edge over The Phils. Starting line up edge goes to Phils, although the addition of Ugla has helped The Braves, and the loss of Werth has hurt The Phils. Can’t wait for the 2011 baseball season!
Heisenberg
December 16th, 2010
12:53 pm
For all of those hoping the Philly trio of 30 somethings will loose their stuff as they age, I would not count on that meaning they will be less effective. None of these guys are classic power pitchers who once they drop a couple MPH off the fastball are no longer effective. They know how to pitch and will make adjustments just like another famous trio of 30 something pitchers did in the 90s. The injury part is unpredictable and could happen to anybody at anytime. So barring injury, expect these guys to be able to pitch effectively (maybe not dominating) into their late 30s.
Hoping for them to loose their stuff is not how to compete. Stepping up to the challenge is what is called for.
Ronald Millsaps
December 16th, 2010
12:56 pm
“Jinx Master”–Kindly examine the payrolls of those two Florida championship teams, and learn how to spell Werth’s first name.
By the way, I don’t judge teams/seasons by simply who won the title. Each team has “x” amount of talent, and the best TEAM last season might’ve been the Royals under Ned Yost or the Orioles under Buck Showalter.
Heisenberg
December 16th, 2010
1:05 pm
Best team Royals? Orioles? The smokey mountain rain could be clouding your vision. Oh never mind you are blind. Just kidding – no personal attacks. Could not resist the puns!
Ronald Millsaps
December 16th, 2010
1:05 pm
In response to the Michael Vick comment, yeah, he only made the playoffs twice when here. Remember that he only played in 2003 when the Falcons already were mathematically eliminated, though, so scratch that year off, and while he was uninspired in 2005 and 2006, he also had the inexcusable West Coast offense strapped around him.
You can ask ajc.com employees; I bashed the idea of using him in this offense about a million times. The only on-air person I ever heard bash it was Joe Theismann.
Dan Reeves was a fine influence on him; Mora and Blank were not, and why would they never address the offensive-line issues? Pretty unwise strategy.
No need for profanity or irreverence on here, folks.
Back to the Phillies’ rotation, people are spinning the question too much. Is this conglomeration of pitchers at a higher plateau than the Braves’ from the early-mid 90s? How long they have been together is a moot point.
GaryinBham
December 16th, 2010
1:56 pm
Phillistein, go find your cousin Franken and ask him about getting your bolts tightened. Besides, your name on here is a clever little play on the people of Goliath in the Bible. Hey, maybe that’s your role model for this team–big blowhard who goes down from a single stone to his clunker and gets his head lopped off by his own sword. It resembles your overpowering appearance with your “unbeatable team” in last year’s playoffs–a no-hitter, a roar, and an exit home. Go away.
Don
December 16th, 2010
2:26 pm
Stop with “Phillies bought their starting pitching” nonsense. The only free agent among the starters is Lee. The rest were traded for using home-grown talent. Can the Braves say that?
Heisenberg
December 16th, 2010
3:04 pm
Don, I believe they can. Lowe was FA signing. Hudson acquired in trade with Oakland, then extended. JJ, Hanson, Medlen, Minor, Beachy all came up via farm system.
Mark Bradley
December 16th, 2010
3:07 pm
Jurrjens came from Detroit in the Edgar Renteria trade, FYI
Heisenberg
December 16th, 2010
3:16 pm
I stand corrected there. Thanx MB.. But we still used our own assets to get him. Thus the construction of Braves staff is similar. Nobody is buying anything except Yanks & Sox. At the end of the season, does that really matter how you put it together? So long as what was assembled got the job done.
James
December 16th, 2010
3:42 pm
I like the Phillies rotation better I think they will help the Phillies win more championships than what Smoltz, Glavine & Maddux did with the Braves.
LawDawg
December 16th, 2010
4:38 pm
Not…even…close.
Oswalt is done, Hamels is average, and Lee is nowhere close to the Big 3. Only Halladay really compares favorably over both the long term and looking to the future.
Army Strong
December 16th, 2010
4:44 pm
Baseball is played on fields, not paper. I’ll take proven winners together over a long period of time over individual winners over maybe one year