The debate: Does Philly’s rotation trump Braves of the ’90s?
The comparison is so inviting that even a world-class dunce like yours truly has made it: With Cliff Lee, the Phillies would seem to have a rotation capable of challenging the best ever, and I’m of the opinion the best rotation ever worked here in the ’90s. Yes, there’s a major caveat: The Braves of the ‘9os went out and did it, while the Phillies must go out and do it. That said …
Roy Halladay and Cole Hamels. Roy Oswalt and now Cliff Lee. On paper, that’s pretty stinkin’ good. (Apologies to Mark Richt for borrowing his line.)
And it’s not just this world-class dunce who thinks so. All the smart guys who crunch baseball numbers are saying so, too.
From Dan Szymborski of ESPN Insider (link requires registration): “The 2011 Philadelphia Phillies rotation isn’t meant to just win; it’s meant to demolish other teams … The Phillies’ new rotation could be the best one we’ve seen in more than 40 years — and beating out staffs with [Tom] Seaver, [Bob] Gibson, [Steve] Carlton, [Dwight] Gooden and ‘Greg] Maddux is no small matter.”
From Tom Verducci of SI.com: “It’s the rotation with the best pure stuff and proven track record since the 1966 Dodgers of Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Don Sutton and Claude Osteen.”
From Buster Olney of ESPN Insider (requires registration): “On paper, it’s the best rotation we’ve seen in about 20 years.”
From Eric Seidman of Baseball Prospectus (requires registration): “The 1998 Braves [of Maddux, tom Glavine, John Smoltz and Denny Neagle] had the best rotation going into their season in baseball history, and with the addition of Cliff Lee, the Phillies rank second … Do not forget the dynamic Braves rotations of the 1990s. They are still the gold standard in starting rotations, though history may soon be rewritten.”
A dissenting note from Cliff Corcoran of SI.com: “The greatest rotations since 1954 … were those of the 1997 Braves and 1966 Dodgers, both of which were worth 33.6 wins above replacement. That shouldn’t come as any great surprise. The Dodgers of 1966 were the last team to feature Sandy Koufax and Don Drysdale and the first to include rookie Don Sutton. That’s three Hall of Famers to match the ‘97 Braves trio of Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz, all of whom are Cooperstown-bound … Where the Phillies’ four fall short is not on the back end, but up top. As great as Halladay is, he has never dominated over a full season the way Koufax or Maddux did.”
Loading ...Projecting greatness, or the lack thereof, always makes for prime Hot Stove kindling. I know. In February 1993 I did a 100-inch story — for you lay people, that’s a long one — on where the Braves’ new rotation stacked up against the all-time best. I spoke with Bob Feller, who was part of a dandy one in Cleveland, and with Ray Miller, who was Earl Weaver’s pitching coach with the Orioles in the late ‘90, and with the aforementioned Sutton. Heck, I even went to the library — Al Gore hadn’t yet brought the Internet to the masses — to look stuff up.
And now I direct you to this fine (and lengthy) story by Jayson Stark of ESPN, in which he quotes Leo Mazzone, who knew the Braves’ rotations better than anyone. Rockin’ Leo employs a bit of revisionist history by saying the Braves “chose” to sign Maddux over Barry Bonds in December 1992 — actually, the Braves were devastated they didn’t land Bonds — but otherwise makes salient points. He likens Halladay to Maddux, Lee to Glavine, Oswalt to Smoltz and Hamels to Steve Avery.
Leo’s conclusion: “So these [Philly] guys all have signature pitches and stuff and makeup as good as anybody in the game in my opinion. And Lee, I think, is the best signing since Maddux in ‘93. But the one thing that Braves staff will always have is the longevity of greatness.”
And that’s the difference: The Braves’ rotation of the ’90s essentially stuck together. Maddux was 26 when he signed with the Braves. Lee is 32. Halladay and Oswalt are 33. These Phillies surely won’t have the staying power the Braves did. But they’re going to be mighty wicked in 2011.
By Mark Bradley
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162 comments Add your comment
ben
December 15th, 2010
5:39 pm
That would depend on whether the Phillies pitchers get that foot outside strike call that all the Brave pitchers did in that era.
SmittyATL
December 15th, 2010
5:40 pm
The Braves’ rotation of the 1990’s and the Phillies projected rotation of 2011 are/were both very impressive. But neither can match the Orioles’ rotation of 1971. Palmer, McNally, Cuellar, and Dobson — 20-game winners all.
When there’s another staff with four 20-game winners in one season, we can have a debate. Until then, no contest.
N8
December 15th, 2010
5:46 pm
I think in terms of a one year window (maybe two), this Phillies rotation is very comparable and maybe better suited to dominate in October than any and all of the Braves staffs (other than 91-91 when Smoltz and Avery were every bit as good in October as Lee, Halladay, Lincecum, etc… were last year).
But Leo is right. The difference is that the trio of Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz were together for a decade, with very good “role” players (Avery, Millwood, Neagle, Schmidt, Leibrandt etc…) serving as the 4th starter at various stages.
It’s going to be hard for the 2011 Phillies to be any more dominant than the 98 Braves were (all 5 guys – Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Neagle and Millwood – had 16+ wins) and only Millwood had an ERA over 4.00. But if any staff could do it, it’s going to be that one.
But playing in that park for 81 games might make them seem not as statistically as good. Hard to say at this point.
But here’s the thing. As good as those guys are (and they are all great, consistent, proven and other than Oswalt at times, pretty healthy)…..
The Braves staff is no slouch either. Especially if Jurrjens returns to 2009 form (Why can’t we assume he won’t do just that? After all, Hamels returned to form after an underachieving, injury plagued season in 2009).
Hudson? Right there in the Cy Young running until running out of gas in September and then proved he was still tough as nails in October againts the Giants.
Hanson? Save a few bad games (he had less “bad games” than Halladay did last year), he was dominant. Despite the local bloggers complaining about him being overrated. Once he figures out how to consistently get into the 7th inning and beyond? Perenniel Cy Young candidate.
Jurrjens? The previous two seasons before last years disappointing/injured season, JJJ was arguably one of MLB’s top 5 pitchers that nobody talked about. If he returns to that 2008-2009 form, he’ll be as good as anybody can throw against him. Anybody.
Lowe? Certainly not in the category of the Phillies fab-4. But Come September and October last year? Nobody in the NL was better. Add to that, other than the now bolstered Phillies rotation, no team can boast as good of a 4th starter as Lowe anywhere in MLB.
Minor/Beachy/Teheran? At this point, it doesn’t matter which one of these guys “wins” the 5th starter job. (more than likely will be Minor), there is 3 really good options and if one of the wins it, that means they looked good in ST and earned. If they falter along the way, one of the others will be ready to step in.
So while the “debate” is about Braves rotations of yesteryear vs. the 2011 Phillies rotation. Let’s not forget that in 2009 with Vazquez, JJJ and Hanson rolling (and Lowe racking up W’s), then having Vazquez replaced with Hudson’s return, the 2009 and moving forward version of the Braves rotation was comparable to any Braves rotations of years past (if only going one season at a time – not longevity).
The Phillies having this great staff isn’t going to be what wins them the NL East. Nope. The Braves pitching is almost as good and the bullpen is probably better.
It’s going to be the COMBINATION of the Phillies pitching, and their potent lineup (and the fact that they actually play defense), that allows them to run away with the NL east.
If the Braves miraculously play stellar defense in 2011 and Chipper Jones is healthy enough to hit 20 HR? The Braves might shock the world. But I’m not counting on it.
Braves will like contend to the end for the WC and probably win it (likely finishing 5-10 games behind the PHillies – like always) and then I’ll take our chances if we meet up in the NLCS. After all, our pitchers held their own against the eventual WS champion Giants vaunted staff (and it’s every bit as good as the Phillies staff). Save a Brooks Conrad error and a horrible call at 2B on Buster’s SB the Braves might have swept the champs right out of the playoffs.
The Phillies didn’t need Cliff Lee to win in October. It’s overkill. But having a 4-deep rotation of Aces pretty much guarantees they’ll GET TO October again and that’s half the battle.
Let the battle begin!
(btw: I’d give the edge on a one season basis to the Phillies over any Braves staff – but barely. But they’re going to have to stay together and dominate for AT LEAST 5 years before I even remotely put them into a category of a great rotation, rather than just hired guns).
Trey
December 15th, 2010
5:47 pm
Smitty, who?
Trey
December 15th, 2010
5:50 pm
Smitty, that was out of sarcasm. I know of Jim Palmer. However, Braves had a better rotation.
SmittyATL
December 15th, 2010
6:00 pm
Mark: Ray Miller was not the Orioles’ pitching coach when they had the four 20-game winners in 1971. George Bamberger was.
Miller did later coach an excellent Orioles rotation that included Palmer, Mike Flanagan, Scott McGregor, Dennis Martinez, and Steve Stone.
Heisenberg
December 15th, 2010
6:02 pm
Smitty I earlier posted I though the 71 Orioles were the best ever based primarily on the four 20 game winners. But I would not go so far as to say only when another team has the same can they be considered better. Keep in mind in those days most staffs had only a 4 man rotation so each starter had 40-41 opportunities each season meaning he only had to be the winning pitcher 50% of the time.
Today with everyone using a 5 man rotation there are only 32-33 starts for each pitcher. Meaning to win 20 games he would have to win 66.7% of all starts. That combined with more liberal use of bullpens is the reason for so few 20 games winners anymore. A pitcher today with 16-17 wins is comparable to the 20 game winners of the past. And even today, I cannot come up with any team in recent memory to have four 16 game winners.
PS. We may never again see a 30 game winner because of this.
SmittyATL
December 15th, 2010
6:11 pm
Good point, Heisenberg. When Earl Weaver was managing, he would sometimes use a fifth starter as a spot starter, but never as a regular part of the rotation. That was the era when baseball transitioned from 4- to 5-man rotations. Weaver resisted. His explanation? “My first four guys are better than the fifth.”
Of course, pitchers’ careers didn’t typically last as long, either. The Orioles’ rotation was better than the Braves’ ’90s rotation, but only for one year. Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz had better longevity than the three Orioles (excluding Jim Palmer).
Try putting today’s multi-million dollar pitchers in a four-man rotation, and I think you’ll see quite an uproar from the players’ union!
Tweets that mention The debate: Does Philly's rotation trump the Braves of the '90s? | Mark Bradley -- Topsy.com
December 15th, 2010
6:12 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Scott Munn, Georgia Bulldogs-UGA. Georgia Bulldogs-UGA said: http://bit.ly/WireUG The debate: Does Philly’s rotation trump Braves of the ’90s? #NCAA #Sports http://bit.ly/fCMNkM [...]
kral
December 15th, 2010
6:13 pm
To Markie all most jumped to conclusions..when I saw the title…but read it and skimmed..Enjoyed your article also N8..seriously..i am not counting on what might happen but I sure wish Santa would deliver on my Braves wish list..previously posted
Nickgranite
December 15th, 2010
6:16 pm
When one of them cracks the top ten in all time wins (Maddux at number 8 with 355) another with 305 wins and still another with over 200 wins, we can revisit this column.
Kevin
December 15th, 2010
6:16 pm
lol…this should not even be a serious question….Look at the ERA of those braves pitchers…IT WAS DOMINATE. period.
NO MORE BOBBY
December 15th, 2010
6:50 pm
As hard as the Phillies try they still only have one World Series championship under Charlie Manuel. Remind you of a certain team from the 90’s?
vermont 39
December 15th, 2010
6:52 pm
Is this the second coming of Jesus!!!
PUHLEEEEZ!!!!!
They have to do it for years and years…3 HoF-ers are BRAVES’ Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz don’t see any HoF -ers in that group …yet. Paper Tigers untill they put in a decade of work…together!!!!
Billyboy
December 15th, 2010
6:58 pm
Does Philly’s rotation trump Braves of the ’90s? . . . question by Mark Bradley
Are you kidding? You are asking does a staff for a decade compare to a possible 1-2 year pitching staff.
Next think Mark will be asking is, does Obama compare to George Washington and Abraham?Lincoln.
Brave New World
December 15th, 2010
6:58 pm
The Phillies going into 2011 have a very good rotation, but the Braves’ trio of Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz are all future Hall of Famers, something none of the Phillies’ pitchers are at this point. Halladay is the lone member of the Phillies current staff that is headed to a Hall of Fame career if he has another 7 great seasons. Oswalt has been very good, but will likely fall short. 2-time all star and highly overpaid Cliff Lee with a lifetime 3.85 ERA and only 2 15+ win seasons will not be in the hall, and the only way Cole Hamels gets into the hall is with a paid admission.
Gustopher
December 15th, 2010
7:00 pm
Here is Fox Sports take
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/lists/MLBs-best-pitching-rotations-of-all-time-121410#photo-title=1926%20Philadelphia%20Athletics&photo=23371042
JJhonson
December 15th, 2010
7:20 pm
If the Braves are still looking to dump D. Lowe’s salary, and let’s face it our team is ALWAYS looking to cut spending… I hope Frank Wren has called or will call the NYY in light of the fact that Cliff Lee did not follow the Yankees rule and sign with them for the most money.
I personally think Lowe is a good pitcher, but the Braves mantra the last year or so has been to get rid of his salary. The Yanks need pitching and might be willing to talk… and it’s not like Lowe is unfordable to them.
C’mon Frank Wren, be proactive please.
otisnixonsmokescrack!
December 15th, 2010
8:11 pm
…i guess mo should’ve retired after blowing game 7 in 2001? giants fans sound like phillies fans(i’m one) who smikred when the yanks signed c.c. then in the ws(2009) the laughs stopped. the phils pitched more than good enough to win last yr. the giants won. i tip my hat. one diff was blanton in game 4. blanton ble lead. lee had a bad game 1. and had a good game 5. but he got no run support. the phils didn’t hit all last season. not just in the playoffs. look at how poorly they hit vs the reds for example.
-the phils quiet bats were of no real suprise to die hard phils fans. local media knew this too. it’s all they talked about before the playoffs began.
rollins was garbage all season. mostly due to injuries. utley was slowed by injuries. howard was having an mvp season untill he sprained his ankle. werth was garbage w/risp. shane had a bad season except for hrs. polanco was never the same after he got hit in his elbow vs the braves. he played with a bone chips most of the yr. even ruiz was hit last game of the season vs braves.
-this all comes into play when you play deep into october. the redsox won in 2004, but it took them til 2007 to win it all again. it happens. the braves had us buried. the phils though, didn’t fold like the mets do. philly showed a lot of heart. the phils won 97 games w/o out hitting a lick. imagine if they had hit just a little more. forget about all the hype. the giants have a great staff. ditto for braves. with lee we can now match them stud for stud. no more joe blanton types in a game
4. but the phils have better hitters. again the phils were o was god awful last season. even w/o werth guys like chase and howard will bounce back.. the giants won the 1st ws in sf and now they rule the universe?? get outta here. now the yanks,boston, tex, atl, phils have no shot vs the unstoppable giants… get real.
MitchC
December 15th, 2010
8:14 pm
Mark, while Philly’s rotation next year will be mighty good, we can’t yet match them up with the Braves. Although the Braves won “only” one WS, let’s look at the numbers.
Before Smoltz hurt himself for the 2000 season, and moved to the pen, the rotation of Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz, from 1993 to 1999, had four Cy Young Awards, a World Series championship, three NL titles, and several 20 win seasons. They weren’t “potential”, they were results.
The Phillies have put together a nice run, with the four straight division titles, and two WS appearances in the last four years, but.. it would seem to me that they need a few more division titles, Cy Young Awards, and another WS title, to trump the Braves.
They will be a good rotation no doubt. As I said, Philly wins the East easily in 2011 unless they have major injuries, but.. let’s see what they accomplish in terms of the other areas I mentioned, before we put them on par with the division titles era rotations of the Braves.
JEB
December 15th, 2010
8:30 pm
Here was our great rotation:
In 1993 we were beat out by the Phillies in the NLCS
In 1994 (unless we had a miracle end of season
we would have been knocked out of division by
Montreal
1995: we all know what happened
1996: Knocked out by Yankees (after up 2-0)
1997: beat out by wild card Marlins in NLCS
1998: knocked out by Padres
1999: swept in WS by Yankees
That was the 90’s with that staff.
So, just because the Phillies have this staff
does not guarantee success & going all the way!
dylan
December 15th, 2010
8:41 pm
2 Reasons why the Braves staff of the 90s-early 00s was better than the current Phils staff:
1.) Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery, Neagle, Millwood, all pitched during the steroid era and still had better numbers than H20 + Lee. The hitters now dont compare to the hitters of the late 90s. The prime of the Braves pitching staff was during the peak of the steroid era, when offensive numbers were at their highest in the entire history of baseball
2.) Those Braves pitchers were much better hitters, bunters, and fielders than these current Phils. Maddux has won 18 gold gloves, while glavine and smoltz were also exceptional fielders. In addition, they all were great hitting pitchers, as glavine won 4 silver sluggers and smoltz won one.
Overall, the 1998 Braves starting rotation is the greatest pitching staff in the history of the game. Period.
Devin
December 15th, 2010
9:12 pm
no way can we compare braves to phils look at these cy young award winners in such a steriod ere and way better pitchers all over the leagues in the 1990’s
BRAVES Phils
1991: Tom glavine Cole Hamels: NEVER
1992: Greg Maddux 2003: Roy Halladay
1993: Greg Maddux 2010: Roy Halladay
1994: Greg Maddux 2008: Cliff Lee
1995: Greg Maddux Roy Oswalt: NEVER
1996 John Smoltz
1998: Tom Glavine
Oh ya by the way cole hamels is there 4th starter we had denny Neagle. Our 4th starter lead the leagues in wins in 1997 going 20-5 with a 2.97 era. also this is arguably the prime of the steriod era. Cole hamels will probasbly go 13-7 with a 3.50 era. Overall BRAVES have easily the better pitching staff to bad phils nothing will be like the 1990’s Braves. Sorry phils
ph
December 15th, 2010
9:25 pm
I wouldn’t be praising the Phillies too much too soon. Lee is getting older and more prone to injury. Then as great as he could be, he may just be just like how Mike Hampton was for the majority of his tenure with us. Oswalt knows he is most likely on the way out as Lee’s salary rises way up next year. So in 2012, their 4 ACES could be 2.5 ACES.
PHIL
December 15th, 2010
11:49 pm
I’d say………..who cares? The staff they have in 2011 is going to be so much better than anyone else they should just give them the title and save all the electricity it takes to turn on the lights at the major league stadiums and save the gas from the millions of cars that fans drive to the games. Lets just start on 2012 season and see if anyone can better them then.
NashPhil
December 15th, 2010
11:55 pm
Unfortunately the Braves rotation also had to pitch in the postseason. Maddux 11-14 lifetime, 6-11 after the division series.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/maddugr01.shtml
14 postseasons (13 really) and one WS? Really? Philly is already there with about 3-4 good shots at another.
The Braves teams of 1991-2004 were generally built for the regular season, to grind two out of three wins against lesser teams in a series. No real closer, no true leaders. No guy to hand the ball to in a Game 7. Maddux??
There was only one really good HOMEGROWN Atlanta pitcher, Glavine. Others signed as FAs or traded for, so get off the high horse that Philly signed ONE FA. Magic of Braves used to be knowing whom to trade, whom to keep. Now they’re throwing in Adam Wainwright in trades for one year rentals. And I didn’t hear anyone complaining when TT owned the Braves and you could spend whatever you wanted. Hint: try going to games, don’t complain about Liberty. Playoff games that are not sold out? Sad.
Lifelong Dawg
December 16th, 2010
1:19 am
Shouldn’t the Phillie Phour have to pitch at least one season together before we start dumping accolades on them? That’s what’s wrong with sports, and sportswriters, today? The game has already been played as far as they’re concerned. Same thing happened with the Heat in the NBA. The media had already conceded the trophy to them and the first tip-off was still months away. There’s a difference between speculation and “pre”warding. Oh well, I hope the words taste good for those who end up eating them.
BB FAN
December 16th, 2010
1:28 am
Turner field holds 50,000 people, Citizen Bank Park holds 43,000. Atlanta has a population of less than 600,000. Philadelphia has a population of about 1.6 million. I’d say it’s a little easier for Philly to fill a smaller stadium.
BB FAN
December 16th, 2010
1:38 am
Atlanta traded for Smoltz when he was a minor league pitcher. He was developed by Atlanta as much as Detroit. Glavine was drafted by Atlanta, Avery was drafted by Atlanta. The Braves signing Maddux as a free agent to go with a homegrown pitching staff is a little different than Philly trading for Oswalt (an AS pitcher making 16 mill a year), Halladay (a CY young pitcher making 20 mill a year) and signing Lee at 24 mill a year to go with their one homegrown pitcher Hamels.
Philadelphia has become the Yankees of the NL. That’s fine, they can afford it. But people have to admit that they are trying to buy a WS title or two. The Yanks bought 4 of them (I consider the 96 Yanks to be legit). I consider all those Yankee teams as great, but I also know that they bought those titles. Next year’s Phillies team should be great. We’ll see if they can win a WS or two. Being a Braves fan, I obviously hope they don’t.
serbok
December 16th, 2010
1:41 am
I have to agree with~
Trade Nate for a Bag of Balls
Shud have more than 1 world series~! victory~!
With that “Staff?”
The Bravos~ shuda been listed?? where?
Bobby~ was~ a Great GM!!!! Terrible Field manager!
BB FAN
December 16th, 2010
1:45 am
Maddux may have been 11-14 in the post season, but he also had an ERA of 3.27, not much over his career of 3.16. Glavine was 14-16 in the post season but had a 3.30 ERA, lower than his career of 3.54. The Braves never really had a great offense. They struggled to score runs in many of those losses. Smoltz was so dominant in the post season (15-4 with a 2.67 ERA), he didn’t need many runs to work with.
Elitist
December 16th, 2010
8:05 am
That Phillies rotation looks great. I, being a Braves fan, hope they stay healthy and each lose 20 games.
Warren Spahn
December 16th, 2010
8:33 am
Let’s wait about five years or so and see what the statistics show. But, for right now it is clearly Maddux over Halladay, Glavine over Lee, Smoltz easily over Oswalt, and Neagle (or Avery in his prime) over Hamel. When you look at it objectively, it isn’t really close.
Phillistein
December 16th, 2010
9:14 am
I know it makes for good debate in the offseason.
But frankly, I could give a flyin fig about what is or isn’t considered the best rotation of all time. It’s too subjective a topic anyway.
Are we talking for a full year, matching up careers vs. careers etc.
However, as I said – I could care less – I’m trying to win a pennant in 2011.
Naturally – the Braves of the 90’s, with 3 HOF would rate highly in any discussion. But, on paper (Key word there is PAPER) the Phillies of 2011 seem to have the rotation to beat….in 2011 !!!
How many days til pitchers and catchers?
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
9:44 am
The Phillies will be the team to beat in 2011 – and beat them we will.
Kentavo
December 16th, 2010
9:59 am
I’ve gone from being stunned by the Lee acquisition to an attitude of – bully for them – now all the expectations are on the Phillies, and we’ll fly under the radar and make the playoffs anyway. Wild Card is fine with me. If Braves stay healthy, will be very dangerous team. I don’t think we can underestimate the value of all the young guys getting playoff experience last year. Yes, it was a losing cause, but even as decimated as the lineup was, we were oh so close to knocking off the Giants.
That being said, it sure would be nice if Wren would go out and get some of the lower-priced guys (like Nady and Wiggington) that keep disappearing on the market.
And some speed would be nice, too.
Hope Fredi is more aggressive than Bobby when it comes to playing small ball.
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
10:14 am
The Phillies addiction to overpriced free agents will take the joy out of winning. Oh, they’ll win quite a few games, but the expactations are so high now that anything short of a World Series ring will make for a dissapointing year in Philly. What a pity, their fine fans have no where to go but down.
Phillistein
December 16th, 2010
10:30 am
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
10:14 am
The Phillies addiction to overpriced free agents will take the joy out of winning. Oh, they’ll win quite a few games, but the expactations are so high now that anything short of a World Series ring will make for a dissapointing year in Philly. What a pity, their fine fans have no where to go but down
*********************************************************************************************************
Actually…………………..no.
Yeah, I guess anytime you think you have a great team, make the playoffs and come up short…….especially to the eventual winner, it’s somewhat disappointing.
However, we had a great year last year. I’m not a season ticket holder but I went to about 15 games or so. Had a blast frankly.
Bought standing room tickets most of the time ($14-$16) great food at a fair price, reasonable parking. I live in the burbs and was home 30 minutes after the game ended. (Always found a seat somewhere)
CBP is a GREAT place to watch a game, every game a sellout, crowd is pumped – dunno – over the past few years it’s been a GREAT place to be a baseball fan.
So that you know – if I’ve gone to a few less games in year’s past it’s only because the kids are grown.
Yup – winning a WS title would have been nice but………….still had a wonderful year. And every indication is that they’ll be competitive again this year – so it will be more of the same.
So, your rationalization about the state of mind of Phillies phans sounds like someone from 700 miles away that didn’t have as much fun as we did.
Whatever
Mikey
December 16th, 2010
10:40 am
After watching the Phillies lineup choke against the Giants, I’m surprised they let Werth go and have not signed any talent on the offense. Ryan will not see a fastball over the plate all year and may K 200 times. Prediction Brave fans: A healthy Heyward out/stats $20m Ryan!
Phillistein
December 16th, 2010
10:46 am
By the way…………insofar as your statement that winning won’t be much fun because we’re addicted to “high priced free aganets”
Firstly – wrong
Secondly – wrong
Thirdly – as the team has been around since 1883 and our “addiction” to high priced free agents has been a recent occurance (18 months?) I’ll have to get back to you on the withdrawl aspects.
But if you think we’re sad because of what has transpired with the payroll – you’d be wrong.
jason
December 16th, 2010
10:51 am
has any one noticed that over the last 2 regular seasons Derek Lowe has more wins and the same losses at Cliff Lee? I am not saying Lowe is as good as Lee, but I think we are over valueing Lee considerably. He has played with better offenses than Lowe during this time as well.
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
11:00 am
Good point Jason. Derek Lowe as a starter (he also was a stand out reliever with 85 career saves) has way more wins than Lee, as many all star selections (2), and the exact same career ERA (3.85). Lee is a good pitcher but not a great one. At $24 million per season, he is easily the most overpriced number 3 starter in baseball history.
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
11:04 am
Braves winning NL East in 2011 = joy, excitement, and celebration in Atlanta; Phillies finishing 2nd in NL East in 2011 = sadness, bitter disappointment, depression in Philly.
Rebel
December 16th, 2010
11:06 am
Better than Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz? In the last couple years Oswalt, Halladay, Hamels and Lee haven’t really been better than Hanson, Hudson, JJ and Lowe. In the last two years they have started 255 games, they have won 107 an lost 83 games but the “team” lost 148 of the games they started for .420%. Our Braves in the same two years (Hudson, JJ, Hanson and Lowe) have started 217 games, won 92 and lost 63 and the team went on to fail 125 games overall for a .424%. If they had a 107-83 record and we had a 92-63 meaning that we did better our winning % was .594 and theirs was .563 these last two years. So are they better than Maddux, Glavine and Smotlz? NOT!
Nick P.
December 16th, 2010
11:22 am
that exactly what I think and said earlier as well, they are great on paper, but paper does notplay the 162 games and all that goes along wth that. Id Phiilies continue to go to the playoffs for the next ten years i a row then it worked out for them and they are thebest, but that a big IF! Braves had their pitchers in their youth, Phillies in their thirties.
ABravesFan
December 16th, 2010
11:30 am
As a baseball fan, it would be interesting to see how well the Phillies’ rotation does next year. As a Braves fan, I hope it fall short of the lofty expectation. Realistically, one of them might have a down year just from the lack of run support (see KK for the Braves last year). Sure, it looks rather daunting to catch the Phillies in the NL East next year but thank goodness, we do have the Wild Card to contend for again.
Skeezix
December 16th, 2010
11:33 am
I’m more concerned about CF. The Phils have an amazing rotation, but I don’t think it will equal what the Braves did for over a decade in the 90s. I do think that by signing Lee, I would rank the current Phillies rotation ahead of the 2010 Braves. However, the 2011 Braves rotation may be better than the 2010 version because Tommy and J.J. are still learning and I think they will be even better next year. Also, Medlen has shown that he has potential to be a very solid starter. So, to all those gloating Phillies fans I’d say don’t get too cocky—baseball is never a sure thing and let’s wait and see how things look come next Sept. I believe the Braves will be in the fight for first place in the NL East.
Rebel
December 16th, 2010
11:47 am
Looking back at my comment, I guess that if we didn’t have Kawakami in our staff last year we may have finished on 1st place…
cj
December 16th, 2010
12:11 pm
ok so while everyone is worried about these two what about the giants rotation? the have lincecum, zito, and cain. and what about the deadly one the cardinals have with wainwright, carpenter, and the hot rookie Jaime garcia, plus the best hitter in pujols!!!!!
Brave New World
December 16th, 2010
12:17 pm
The 2011 Phillies rotation is very good, but so is 2011 rotation of The Braves. I think Roy Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball, but Hudson is one of the best and Lowe is an innings eater who’s always good for at least 15 wins. What remains to be seen is how good a healthy Hanson and Jurgens will be. As far as the bull pen goes, The Braves have the edge over The Phils. Starting line up edge goes to Phils, although the addition of Ugla has helped The Braves, and the loss of Werth has hurt The Phils. Can’t wait for the 2011 baseball season!