The debate: Does Philly’s rotation trump Braves of the ’90s?
The comparison is so inviting that even a world-class dunce like yours truly has made it: With Cliff Lee, the Phillies would seem to have a rotation capable of challenging the best ever, and I’m of the opinion the best rotation ever worked here in the ’90s. Yes, there’s a major caveat: The Braves of the ‘9os went out and did it, while the Phillies must go out and do it. That said …
Roy Halladay and Cole Hamels. Roy Oswalt and now Cliff Lee. On paper, that’s pretty stinkin’ good. (Apologies to Mark Richt for borrowing his line.)
And it’s not just this world-class dunce who thinks so. All the smart guys who crunch baseball numbers are saying so, too.
From Dan Szymborski of ESPN Insider (link requires registration): “The 2011 Philadelphia Phillies rotation isn’t meant to just win; it’s meant to demolish other teams … The Phillies’ new rotation could be the best one we’ve seen in more than 40 years — and beating out staffs with [Tom] Seaver, [Bob] Gibson, [Steve] Carlton, [Dwight] Gooden and ‘Greg] Maddux is no small matter.”
From Tom Verducci of SI.com: “It’s the rotation with the best pure stuff and proven track record since the 1966 Dodgers of Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Don Sutton and Claude Osteen.”
From Buster Olney of ESPN Insider (requires registration): “On paper, it’s the best rotation we’ve seen in about 20 years.”
From Eric Seidman of Baseball Prospectus (requires registration): “The 1998 Braves [of Maddux, tom Glavine, John Smoltz and Denny Neagle] had the best rotation going into their season in baseball history, and with the addition of Cliff Lee, the Phillies rank second … Do not forget the dynamic Braves rotations of the 1990s. They are still the gold standard in starting rotations, though history may soon be rewritten.”
A dissenting note from Cliff Corcoran of SI.com: “The greatest rotations since 1954 … were those of the 1997 Braves and 1966 Dodgers, both of which were worth 33.6 wins above replacement. That shouldn’t come as any great surprise. The Dodgers of 1966 were the last team to feature Sandy Koufax and Don Drysdale and the first to include rookie Don Sutton. That’s three Hall of Famers to match the ‘97 Braves trio of Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz, all of whom are Cooperstown-bound … Where the Phillies’ four fall short is not on the back end, but up top. As great as Halladay is, he has never dominated over a full season the way Koufax or Maddux did.”
Loading ...Projecting greatness, or the lack thereof, always makes for prime Hot Stove kindling. I know. In February 1993 I did a 100-inch story — for you lay people, that’s a long one — on where the Braves’ new rotation stacked up against the all-time best. I spoke with Bob Feller, who was part of a dandy one in Cleveland, and with Ray Miller, who was Earl Weaver’s pitching coach with the Orioles in the late ‘90, and with the aforementioned Sutton. Heck, I even went to the library — Al Gore hadn’t yet brought the Internet to the masses — to look stuff up.
And now I direct you to this fine (and lengthy) story by Jayson Stark of ESPN, in which he quotes Leo Mazzone, who knew the Braves’ rotations better than anyone. Rockin’ Leo employs a bit of revisionist history by saying the Braves “chose” to sign Maddux over Barry Bonds in December 1992 — actually, the Braves were devastated they didn’t land Bonds — but otherwise makes salient points. He likens Halladay to Maddux, Lee to Glavine, Oswalt to Smoltz and Hamels to Steve Avery.
Leo’s conclusion: “So these [Philly] guys all have signature pitches and stuff and makeup as good as anybody in the game in my opinion. And Lee, I think, is the best signing since Maddux in ‘93. But the one thing that Braves staff will always have is the longevity of greatness.”
And that’s the difference: The Braves’ rotation of the ’90s essentially stuck together. Maddux was 26 when he signed with the Braves. Lee is 32. Halladay and Oswalt are 33. These Phillies surely won’t have the staying power the Braves did. But they’re going to be mighty wicked in 2011.
By Mark Bradley
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162 comments Add your comment
STONEMAN
December 15th, 2010
1:33 pm
Enter your comments here
F-105 Thunderchief
December 15th, 2010
1:34 pm
Don’t forget Kevin Millwood in that really good fourth pitcher category.
Heisenberg
December 15th, 2010
1:48 pm
If the question was who had the better top 3, then I would say Braves. But considering Braves #4 had some turnover through the 90’s, edge goes to Phils for depth. 71 Orioles with four 20 game winners were still best ever IMHO.
Mitchell
December 15th, 2010
1:49 pm
As much as I hate the Giants, they sure are getting the shaft on this one.
I mean, the one time they won the World Series they had Cole Hamels, Joe Blanton and Jamie Moyer and maybe Kyle Kendrick. Hell, I don’t know.
Since then, they had Cliff Lee, Pedro Martinez, Cole Hamels and somebody and lost to the Yankees.
Most recently, they had the great Roy Halladay, the slightly less great Roy Oswalt, an improved Cole Hamels and regrettably, Joe Blanton, and got their @$$es handed to them by Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Jonathan Sanchez and Maddison Bumgarner… the best rotation in baseball.
And when all 30 teams take the field on Opening Day 2011, the Giants will still have the better pitching staff than even our beloved Braves, not to mention the Phillies who are probably doomed to failure if these rushed comparisons to the great ones of the past continue to pile up, which they more than likely will.
And did I mention I hate the Giants?
Heisenberg
December 15th, 2010
1:50 pm
The very last line of Ken Rosenthal’s column suggests the Braves talked to Brewers about Lorenzo Cain
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Matt-Garza-Zack-Grienke-tampa-bay-rays-kansas-city-royals-mlb-trade-options-12122010
So I click on the link for Lorenzo Cain’s name ..
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/lorenzo-cain/778836
Check out that photo!
GSU Eagle 91
December 15th, 2010
1:53 pm
As good as all of these staffs were/are…..
In the end it comes down to situational hitting, stealing bases, bunting over runners on first, etc….The little things the Braves could NOT do…year after year in the playoffs. I’ll never get over 8 straight World Series losses by 1 run! 1……and all were low scoring contests…..
The Phillies failed in 2010 vs SF not because of their pitching, but because they could not score runs with 2 outs..Just like the 1991-2005 Braves…..How frustrating…..
That’s why we have 1 WS title…Our pitching was stellar!
Wake up Wren
December 15th, 2010
1:55 pm
Its time to wheel and deal……………..Hall, Cain J Upton, Greninke pick two and lets play.
FoulTip
December 15th, 2010
1:57 pm
The signing of Neagle at the end of his first season with the Braves was a mistake. His awful performance in the World Series was one of the reasons we loss. It reminds me of another addition from Pittsburg, McLouth.
bry22
December 15th, 2010
2:00 pm
GOOD BUT:
Hamels 12-11
Oswalt 13-13
Lee 12-9
NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!!
Observer
December 15th, 2010
2:05 pm
Not sure about the pitching but their ownership sure as heck trumps ours
Observer
December 15th, 2010
2:06 pm
Im afraid its going to be a very very very long year for the braves next year
matt
December 15th, 2010
2:07 pm
I think everybody is overreacting a little about the Phillies rotation. I’m not stupid, they’re definitely the best rotation in baseball right now. But Cliff Lee is 32 and only has 102 wins. He’s been great at times, don’t get me wrong, but he’s been pretty hittable at times, too. Look at his career numbers, not HOF-type stuff. Same can be said about Oswalt.
Like I said, they’re great and I was definitely a little worried when the Phils got Lee, but, better than Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz? Gimme a break.
skip
December 15th, 2010
2:08 pm
Today’s Wall Street Journal made this interesting comparison: The best four man rotation in history, based on ERA compared with the league ERA would be the 2011 Phillies. Halladay(2.44), Oswalt(2.76), Hamels(3.06) Lee(3.18) equal and ERA of 2.84, whereas the 2010 league ERA was 4.37, a difference of -1.53. Second best, the 1998 Braves with a combined ERA of 2.75 against a league mark of 4.23, a -1.48 difference.
Mike
December 15th, 2010
2:08 pm
These comparisons are stupid. History will judge. This is just another dumb off season sensation to talk about because there’s no real baseball yet. Looking at history, hey, I’m a Braves fan. I think our guys were the best. Baltimore in ‘71 was unconcious. And, I was blown away in ‘66 by the LA rotation. But, I’ll take our guys. Philly in 2011 doesn’t exist yet. Personally, I’ll wait and see.
Mitchell
December 15th, 2010
2:17 pm
Of course, the ‘66 Dodgers got swept by the Orioles who were five years from having four 20 games winners.
And what happened to the four 20 game winners? They got beat by Steve Blass and the ‘71 Pirates.
So there you have it.
g-dub
December 15th, 2010
2:27 pm
I don,t think that the Phillies rotation will be together for 10 years but I do think that they are better suited for the playoffs than the 90’s braves. Maddux and Glavine threw 80mph on good days and in the playoffs when the batter is totally locked into the pitcher they would get battered. That is why they only have 1 ring, the year when Toronto fooled Lonnie Smith on the bases if Smith scores like he should have series over, Bobby Cox can’t get out there and run the bases for you or get a clutch hit for you but he can put you in a position to if you hit or run or catch maybe you win the series. Bobby was a great coach and a fine example of how the game should be played.
P. Bull Terrier
December 15th, 2010
2:34 pm
According to the media, whatever is happening today is always the greatest in history.
Phillies – greatest pitching staff ever.
Cam Newton – greatest college football player ever.
Jason Hayward – greatest prospect ever.
Paul Johnson – greatest college football coach ever.
Lebron James – greatest basketball player ever.
Brett Favre – greatest sports record ever.
A year ago, or a year from now, the names on the list would have been, or will be, different.
gcs
December 15th, 2010
2:37 pm
I’d have to give the edge to the Braves because of age:
Of the big three, Halladay and Oswalt are both 33. Cliff Lee is 32. Cole Hamels is 26 but far from being an ace.
When the Young Guns first became teammates, they were Maddux 26, Glavine 27, Smoltz 25, Avery 22.
.
Jwood
December 15th, 2010
2:38 pm
Who is going to win the lottery tomorrow?
Um…isn’t it a little too early to ask a question like that. Let them play it out. All this sport-writer hand-wringing may seem like all in good fun at first, but there just comes a point where you have to be patient and let the stats stack up after the fact.
Space Monkey
December 15th, 2010
2:41 pm
The thing most people aren’t seeing is that this is FOUR great pitchers. Four aces. The Braves only had that for a few years in 1993 with Avery and in 1996 and 1997 with Neagle. Four aces is a really tough hand to beat. It’s also really bad for us that two of these guys are lefties. I figure they’ll get north of 65 wins and 90 decisions. The only thing that will stop the Phils from repeating is injury. And they have a much better and more balanced offense than the Braves have ever had. They seem to score at will. I don’t think they lose much from that because of Werth. His replacement is likely a better all-around player.
FalconUGAFan
December 15th, 2010
2:43 pm
No
ABraveFan2
December 15th, 2010
3:04 pm
Let’s talk again after this foursome wins 14 NL Pennants in a row and goes to 4 World Series….oops I guess we won’t talk, because it won’t happen. Next article please!
LivinInAL
December 15th, 2010
3:05 pm
I think we should wait till this group of superstars have pitched a season for the same team before comparing them to anyone.
kyle
December 15th, 2010
3:06 pm
stupid article……don’t even need to read it………..especially when the front page headline ends with…..”Is it too early to tell”
Bradley……sometimes your lack of journalistic skills is astounding!
Phillies, Class of the NL
December 15th, 2010
3:06 pm
howdy folks, its been some time since I’ve checked in on you loveable rednecks…the Phillies are truly incredible aren’t they? what are the braves up to these days?
kyle
December 15th, 2010
3:12 pm
Then in just scrolling through it…..see that he has referenced the likes of espn idiot Buster Olney and the like! Give me a break…..as that fool or Tom Verducci knows anymore about baseball than the rest of us!
That’s comical as I would be embarrassed to be quoting sources like those two! Now all we need is the moranic Ken Rosenthal to spout off some B.S. that he makes up as he goes along like…..”I have the latest trade rumor to report in that the this team and that team have not talked to each about any players” Damn idiots….go away!!!!
Jinx Master
December 15th, 2010
3:17 pm
Once again Bradley another inept article, that pitching staff only won one ring! You can make a much better case for the 95 to 2000 Yankees with David Cone, Andy Pettitte, David Wells & Roger Clemens. During that span they won 4 rings even though they weren’t together for all 6 years. Please get over, that overrated staff! Oh yeah those great managers Bobby Cox & Leo Mazzone wore Steve Avery & Kent Merkers arms out! LoL One ring!
Dawg '88
December 15th, 2010
4:00 pm
Remind me again….how many League Championship pennants the Phillies rotation has won together? How many World Series won? How many CY Young have been won by the two groups?
Phillies 2
Braves 6 or 7?
Gold Gloves? Phillies 0, Maddux alone…10 in a row! Thats part of the game.
Silver Slugger Awards? Phillies 0 Braves 2 or 3?
What a stupid debate? One is accomplished…the other done nothing yet to join them in such company. The Phillies Suck Anyway…Hamels and Halladay and Oswalt together won what last year? the NL East….Hell the Giants rotation took care of them and won everything. The Phillies aren’t even able to match them let alone the 90s Braves rotation!
g-dub
December 15th, 2010
4:06 pm
By the way I know that I am off the subject but where is the uproar for Lee joining a championship caliber team like there was when Lebron joined the Heat. I kinda liken Lebron, DWade and Bosh to Halladay, Hamels, Lee, Rollins, Howard, Utley, Victorino. I’m just saying
Go Ducks!
December 15th, 2010
4:09 pm
Braves have 3 that will be in HOF— Phils have 2 at best. Braves win Braves win
TOMY FOURNIER
December 15th, 2010
4:18 pm
Who care about Phillies rotation????….I’m Atlantas Fan….and I care about Atlantas rotation…and is not to bad..will see!!!
Trey
December 15th, 2010
4:21 pm
Mark, I believe it can be compared to the Braves rotation of the 90s, but I also believe the Braves had the better rotation. The Braves had Maddux that won three out of four Cy Youngs in a row with Atlanta, John Smoltz, won one, and Glavine won two. Smoltz became an exceptional closer after he hurt his arm, Maddux career ERA with the Braves was in the mid to high 2’s, until he really started aging and it jumped into the 3s. However, Maddux wasn’t called the professor for nothing. They all had their own pitching styles which makes the rotation tough, and I believe that the Phillies rotation is no joke.
Christopher Chance
December 15th, 2010
4:43 pm
What matters most is what’s going to happen in 2011. The Phillies are primed to DOMINATE in 2011. I see no reason why the Phillies wont have more complete games than there rest of baseball COMBINED in 2011. That in itself will save a bullpen as questionable as the Phillies.
bravesfan
December 15th, 2010
4:47 pm
For the person questioning:
Bonds signed with the Giants Dec. 8, 1992
Maddux signed with the Braves Dec. 9, 1992
JS booked talked about how they sat around a table and discussed if they would go after Maddux or Bonds and all agreed Maddux. When they reached agreement with Bonds, who really wanted to come to the Braves, he signed with SF.
When the Phillies pitching staff, and I say ALL 5 equal the number of wins just by the Big 3 of Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz, talk to me then about the best rotation ever in the majors. Just so you know, and only counting Atlanta numbers that is over 650 wins.
bravesfan
December 15th, 2010
4:48 pm
Correction above, when the Braves reached agreement with Maddux, Bonds went ahead and signed with SF.
Lee didn't make it a show
December 15th, 2010
4:50 pm
G-dub, your boy Lebron started shopping his “talents” during the middle of last bball season and then went on national tv to tell everybody who he was signing with. On the contrary, Lee took his trade from Philly to Seattle like a man then went to Texas and along with J Hamilton carried them to the WS. He didn’t make it about him. Just sayin
bravesfan
December 15th, 2010
4:50 pm
Trey, Maddux won 4 Cy Youngs in a row. 1992 was with the Cubs, 1993, 1994 and 1995 was with the Braves. (Even though the 1994 season ended with the strike, awards were still given)
Lee didn't make it a show
December 15th, 2010
4:52 pm
Nice try on the racist angle though
Ronald Millsaps
December 15th, 2010
4:53 pm
You certainly can make the argument, but here’s you another caveat: Atlanta CULTIVATED its rotation, sans Greg Maddux, whereas the Phillies bought its. Big difference. HUGE difference. Signing a Cliff Lee for millions is not the same as developing a young arm and harnessing the talent in question, so if we’re going to attach a team logo by a rotation, let’s not slap the Phillies’ logo by Cliff Lee, any more than I’d slap the Red Sox’s logo by John Smoltz.
Secondly, I’m glad the Phillies got Lee. They’re my second-favorite team, and I’m glad the NL East acquired/kept MAJOR talent this offseason– Uggla, Werth, Lee, etc., whereas the greatest check-writers/least-cultivators of them all, the Yankees, walked away with no new acquisitions and, furthermore, a rarity— a focus on home-grown talent—— in this case, though, signing Derek Jeter, perhaps the most-overrated player in the game’s history after Cal Ripken, to a contract he simply doesn’t deserve… just like the Yankees didn’t deserve his whiny commentary about it all.
Let me guess; Liberty Media is sulking now that the Phillies got Lee——— as if it couldn’t have dished out some more cash and acquired more talent. Stupid, apathetic ownership. Honestly, ownership knows about as much about baseball as, well, the overall atmosphere at Turner Field on the typical gameday.
Many speak of Bobby’s career and speak 99.9% of his managing and ignore his work as a general manager. In regard to the former, you can argue that he’s the greatest ever. In regard to the latter, he has absolutely no competition. Many overlook the fact that he left the team in very-similar fashion to its early-nineties, Avery-Glavine-Smoltz state, i.e. Julio Teheran.
Take a good look at the Braves’ rotation: I’m not sure that the Phillies’ rotation even has the edge this year.
On a different note, the headline about Michael Vick is light– like a lot of other unfortunately-irreverent aspects of society, and in response to the headline about Vick and Bobby Petrino, Petrino was the wrong man for the job, whether he skipped out like he did or not. Jim Mora, Jr. was the wrong man for the job as well. Dan Reeves might play favorites and be vindictive, but at least he’s smart about football. He let Vick do his thing as opposed to confining him to the West Coast offense— unquestionably the WORST offense he could be used in.
bravesfan
December 15th, 2010
4:55 pm
Take the primary 4 starters for each team last year and you have:
Braves starters 56 wins
Phillies starters 51 wins
bravesfan
December 15th, 2010
4:56 pm
Ronald,
Well Vick only made the playoffs twice, once under Reeves, once under Mora. So what does that say about the player.
bat1994
December 15th, 2010
5:00 pm
Just remember, Philly’s lineup is going to be left-handed dominant w/ the loss of Werth. If they have to face a lefty pitcher they are screwed.
bob
December 15th, 2010
5:02 pm
Little early for that debate. Who is to say all 4 will be on the roster in April?
Rockdale Brave
December 15th, 2010
5:04 pm
There is no way that this comparison has any meaning or significance. There is too much time interval. The Phillies staff has not even pitched together yet so you are dealing with past individual records. Surely Mark this being your second article in two days about the Phillies staff, you will find something new for your next one.
bob
December 15th, 2010
5:04 pm
bravesfan – Maybe not – Bobby Cox turned down a Barry Bonds for Andres Thomas trade in 1988.
Jinx Master
December 15th, 2010
5:11 pm
All this talk about Cy Youngs none of that staff was as good in the postseason when it counted(one ring), except for Smoltz! I bet they would trade a few of those awards, in for a few more rings. By the way Manuel already has a ring, with only half of this dominant staff Hamels & Blanton LOL!
Trey
December 15th, 2010
5:15 pm
Bravesfan, that’s what I said. I said Maddux won three out of four in a row in Atlanta.
We'll have to see
December 15th, 2010
5:22 pm
From 1991 to 1998 the Cy Young was won 6 out of 8 years by Braves pitchers. 1 of the years it wasn’t won by a Braves pitcher in that span Maddux won it with the Cubs. So that’s 7 out of 8 years. That is complete and total pitching dominance.
The rotation in Philly has won 3 Cy Youngs between 2 pitchers over a period of 7 years. They need to collect another 3 and let me know when someone other than Halladay or Lee wins one. Then we might look at the question again.
So far as right now … I’ll take the Braves # 2, 3, & 4 pitchers against their # 2, 3 & 4 any day of the week and like my chances.
Right now I imagine the pithching rotation would stack up like this
1. Halladay 1. Lowe
2. Lee 2. Hudson
3. Oswalt 3. Jurrjens
4. Hamels 4. Hanson
There are so many more stats you could look at, but the current Philly pitching staff couldn’t carry those 90’s Braves pitchers golf clubs.
Jinx Master
December 15th, 2010
5:23 pm
Even if Liberty Media had went out & signed Carl Crawford or Jason Werth, hell even if they would have made a bid on southern boy Cliff Lee. You writers from AJC & Braves bloggers would still whine & cry about what next years team doesn’t have! That so called greatest pitching staff spoiled you crybabies & have only one ring to show for it. Think about it the Florida Marlins have 2 trophies you whiners!
donny
December 15th, 2010
5:37 pm
Who cares?
Lincecum
Cain
Sanchez
Bumgarner
Is better. And doesn’t choke in the World Series.