Fredi Gonzalez, the only real choice? Not so fast (UPDATE)
UPDATE: The Braves have scheduled “a major announcement” for 2:15 p.m. today after Bobby Cox’s already scheduled valedictory at Turner Field. Sounds like Fredi will be introduced today, as opposed to tomorrow.
The last time the Braves held managerial news conferences on consecutive days — one to bid farewell, the next to say hello — it didn’t work out so well. They fired Joe Torre in the press lounge of the old stadium in October 1984, and the next day we were back to greet …
Eddie Haas.
Who lasted 121 games.
Yes, there’s a huge difference this time. Fredi Gonzalez has been a big-league manager; Haas never had. (And, after being canned by the Braves, never would again.) But the Braves back then were so certain Haas, who’d been their Class AAA manager, would be the man to improve on what Torre had started that I developed a kneejerk response to kneejerk promotions. I’m leery of Perfect Choice successions because they so rarely turn out to be.
Everyone in baseball was so convinced the Braves would anoint Gonzalez as Cox’s successor that it had to be either the worst-kept secret or the best-constructed ruse in the history of the world. Turns out it wasn’t the latter. And clearly the Braves have their reasons: He did meritorious work here before leaving to manage the Florida Marlins, who might just be unmanageable. That said …
He never quite lifted the Marlins to the playoffs — got them over .500 in both 2008 and 2009, though — and this year’s team was thought to be (at least by owner Jeffrey Loria) of playoff caliber. And that’s why Gonzalez was fired after 70 games. And before you say, “Well, Loria wouldn’t know a baseball from the back end of a buffalo … ” let’s consider that Loria did hoist the World Series trophy in 2003 after changing managers in midseason.
But my quibbling about Gonzalez has less to do with his Florida days than with his background: The Braves are essentially hiring from within, and after having the same manager from June 22, 1990 to Oct. 11, 2010, this was their chance to look outside and tap someone who wasn’t immersed in The Braves’ Way Of Doing Things. Other clubs are much heavier into statistical analysis. (Terry Pendleton, the hitting coach, was actually surprised earlier this season when I mentioned that his club led the league in on-base percentage.)
The Braves’ Way worked largely because players loved playing for Bobby Cox. I’m not sure they’ll love playing for Gonzalez quite so much. That’s not a knock on the new man. It’s simply to say that there is — or was; got to get used to using the past tense — only one No. 6.
Please understand: Fredi Gonzalez is not Eddie Haas, who was overmatched from Day 1. Fredi Gonzalez is a solid hire made for logical reasons — the Braves know him and like his way of doing business. But I was hoping for someone who wasn’t a Cox acolyte. I was hoping for someone like Jose Oquendo, who’s the third-base coach in St. Louis and who has apprenticed under Tony La Russa. And, apart from their love of stray animals, Cox and La Russa have as much in common as chalk and cheese.
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396 comments Add your comment
The Temporary Mascot formerly known as Russ
October 13th, 2010
10:02 am
There is no fork in the Bobby Cox tree.
bravesfan
October 13th, 2010
10:03 am
Should have hired Hal Galema. That guy knows his stats!
Welcome back Fredi
October 13th, 2010
10:04 am
Good choice of manager in my mind….but the real problem is the ownership…Liberty needs to sell the Braves back to someone that atually likes baseball (Ted?) and not use this team as a tax shelter. It takes $$$$$ to contend. Until that happens the Braves will continue to struggle to get to the playoffs every year….no matter who the manager is.
baseballplayer
October 13th, 2010
10:05 am
No questions this was an Article you didn’t want to write. Point – Counter Point with Jeff Schultz. This is the best hire and the only hire the Braves could have made. This keeps the train on the tracks. Jose Oquendo how long did he take you to think of that one? Not doubt Mark this was a bad piece. As MatthewH said your heart wasn’t in this one. Next time tell them to let Terrence Moore write the column.
Wait did he get fired?
boog
October 13th, 2010
10:07 am
Oh Mark…for crying out loud… You had to invent something to bitch about on this one… Goofy article. There is not one shred of hard evidence in your article except this “feeling” you evidently have. And what’s with the Haas comparison. Just because they both were in the organization hardly makes them comparable in any sense.
same ole song and dance
October 13th, 2010
10:07 am
not crazy about the hire of anyone who has been fired somewhere else but I am sick and tired of the over 70 retreads getting hired over and over and over again. Please just GO AWAY, Joe Torre, Milo Hamilton, John Sterling etc…Bet cha Bobby Cox won’t go away either if somebody will hire him again, why do they?
Lifelong Braves' Fan
October 13th, 2010
10:09 am
I wonder if Chipper Jones was given any consideration?? Just a thought. Fredi will be a good manager and I think the guys in the Braves’ front office did the right thing. I would imagine Bobby had a LOT to say about who his replacement would be as well.
jimmya
October 13th, 2010
10:10 am
NO MANAGER WILL WIN WITH WHAT frank wren GIVES THEM TO PUT ON THE FEILD
Dawgdad (The Original)
October 13th, 2010
10:11 am
As good a choice as any, since no one can predict how these things will work out. If we go MB’s way and hire some out of organization guy, you might wind up with a Jerry Manual. Not sure if Fredi is the task master we need. The guy who insists on players being able to move a runner over, bunt, hit the cutoff man, throw to the right base, and pitchers being able to field their position and hold runners on. Bobby was one who seemed to be somewhat half hearted on these issues, if the guy could hit, Bobby would make excuses for the guy.
Go Fredi, hope they give you something to work with and hope you establish throughout the organization, fundamentals first.
Keith
October 13th, 2010
10:11 am
Bradley,
I think since these are such big shoes to fill and this team is pretty good in their own right (91 games was amazing considering their injuries)…you don’t want to make a huge change from a team chemistry/managerial perspective. In other words, you do not want a complete paradign shift, not at this time with this team who is on the verge of becoming a very good team. A paradigm shift could be monumentally distrastrous at this time.
Having said that, I think Gonzalez is still different enough from Cox regarding the way he manages (from a tactical perspective). It’s a solid hire for those reasons.
What say you, Bradley?
GO FALCONS!
lefty fielder
October 13th, 2010
10:11 am
The logical choice . . . but would Fredi have been able to take this year’s rag-tag bunch 4 games deep into the playoffs?
jimmya
October 13th, 2010
10:13 am
WHO LIKES ANY OF THE PLAYERS WREN HAS BROUGHT HERE TELL ME PLEASE
MATT
October 13th, 2010
10:14 am
A great relief that Pendleton was not named manager. But I have a feeling that no changes, alas, will be made on the coaching staff. What do you all think of McGriff as Pendleton’s replacement?
Bubby
October 13th, 2010
10:15 am
Mark -
Two questions….
1. Will TP be gone as the hitting coach in your opinion?
2. Will we have enough salary open to make a real go at a Carl Crawford????
Mark Bradley
October 13th, 2010
10:16 am
Bubby, here are my guesses:
Yes and no
MitchC
October 13th, 2010
10:17 am
Mark talks about the “Braves way of doing things”. Well, counterpoint to that, Mark. The “Braves way of doing things” only got us nineteen over 500 finishes in the last twenty one years, and fifteen trips to the playoffs. Soo… The “Braves way of doing things”, seems to work well, wouldnt you say?
My other thought is: What would have happened, if, for example, the Braves had hired someone like Oquendo, and they were laungushing at 500 or below next summer. Would you not have said “This team finished over 500 for nineteen of the last twenty one years. How can we go away from what has worked for us for so long”.
I’m also thinking: The Braves wanted to hire Gonzalez quickly, to make sure he was available, so no one else would get him,
Casey
October 13th, 2010
10:19 am
You point out that it “worked because players loved playing for Bobby”. I’m sure Fredi is Bobby’s choice too. So I’m sure Bobby’s players will trust their skipper one last time; much quicker than someone from an entirely different regime.
Diehard
October 13th, 2010
10:19 am
Hate to agree with you Mark, but I agree with you. Still, its funny after all your slothering over Bobby that you raise questions about his “boy” coming in behind him.
Hankie Aron
October 13th, 2010
10:20 am
Mark,
I like your ant-Schultz argument for the Braves going in a completely different direction because there is some merit to what you are saying but I think there is a feeling of continuing the Cox way is the only way
CraZyTraDeMaN
October 13th, 2010
10:21 am
NO MANAGER WILL WIN WITH WHAT frank wren GIVES THEM TO PUT ON THE FEILD
Before all the injuries they were the best team in the NL. They made the playoffs all with a mid level payroll. Our farm is one of the strongest in baseball. Every year since Frank has been here we have gotten better. With the nucleolus of talent and the experience gained by a lot of the young players on this team there is no reason why Frank Wren won’t continue to make this team better.
Josh Kinsey
October 13th, 2010
10:21 am
What are salary cap ramifications of cutting Kawakami? Any savings? Or all losses? This could add more USEFUL money to spend this offseason.
Abnerish
October 13th, 2010
10:21 am
Fredi will be a good hire and will do as well as Bobby has done of late (play 2nd fiddle to the Phils in the east and hope they can make a wild card). The only way he does better than that is if he gets the owners of this franchise to spend the cash to get players that can compete with the best teams in the league (read: the Phils). Bobby was able to be successful in the 90s because he combined his and JS’s ability to create a solid farm with the money to get the game-changing free agents. Without the money, we rely on our farm products and mid-level talent to get the job done. IF the World Series is what we want, the owners need to increase the budget for players. PLain and simple.
Vino Fino
October 13th, 2010
10:22 am
Mark- You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. First, you praise Cox for being one of the greatest managers of all time, and then you suggest that the Braves need to depart from his way of doing things. If he was so great in your eyes, then why would the organization need to bring in someone with a different philosophy? You can’t have it both ways.
Being a contrarian for contrarian’s sake (or to get readers) does not suit you well.
Christopher Chance
October 13th, 2010
10:23 am
Mark Bradley.;…I’m with you on preferring the managerial hire be someone who didnt have ties to Cox. If anything, maybe you Atlanta media types would start asking the new manager some tough questions after tough losses.
If Freddie Gonzalez goes by the Bobby Cox playbook when it comes to defecting blame from his players AS WELL as ducking legit post game questioning….and you guys fall for it….Braves fans will continue to suffer because there will be NO PRESSURE for either Braves players, coaches or management to improve the product on the field.
Injuries are one thing. However when you cant field the ball, run the bases correctly, lay down a bunt properly, or hit with runners on bases………..then those are coaching issues.
The 2010 Braves were the most FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED team that I’ve ever seen make the play-offs. This bunch looked like it went through the whole year without being coached on any of the fundamentals of the game. Any OBJECTIVE Braves fan who watched the WHOLE SEASON, as well as having enough sense to look at the stats (over 30 more errors than the 2nd worst defensive fielding play-off team) can tell you that.
Tweets that mention Fredi Gonzalez, the only real choice? Not so fast, my friends | Mark Bradley -- Topsy.com
October 13th, 2010
10:23 am
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Mark Bradley and Jay Philips, Jon Abril. Jon Abril said: RT @MarkBradleyAJC: Why Fredi Gonzalez might not be the ideal man to succeed Bobby Cox. #braves http://bit.ly/9Rd4ri [...]
DHD
October 13th, 2010
10:25 am
Fredi is the only choice. (period)
PMC
October 13th, 2010
10:25 am
Baseball managers are tremendously overrated when it comes to winning in the playoffs anyway. They make decisions we quibble over but they don’t really effect the game all that much. They don’t play afterall. The American League even less so.
Bobby Cox was great because he was a great Boss. He was a guy people liked to work for who fostered an environment of success. In smaller sample sizes against the best competition the talent wasn’t up to par at least in the lineup. It didn’t work out in the playoffs because the Braves have never scored enough runs when they needed to win. After the starting pitching which was tremendous….Bobby had too much faith in the suspect arms of his bullpen and some downright incapable bench players to come up big when they needed it. It worked sometimes (Francisco Cabrera) and it back fired other times…. like say Melky yesterday.
Also… guys like Sheffield just wet the bed in the playoffs.
Point being…. the GM and owner buying the talent are 2/3rds of the success equation.
Gonzalez is capable and experienced…so he’s a good enough choice as far as we know. The question with this team is going to be whether the ownership and GM are willing to go out and spend the money they need to get playoff winning caliber talent in the field.
Bobby was able to get the absolute max out of almost every player he coached. That was evident this year. He got a lot of average to bad teams into the playoffs only to lose. That’s why they lost the last 8.
The Braves haven’t had the best team in baseball since 1996. That crushing loss changed the legacy…by 1999 our window had passed and even though they still had the best team in the NL… the Yankees were in thier prime. 1996 is without a doubt the most disapointing Braves season of the 90’s.
DP
October 13th, 2010
10:26 am
I think major league baseball manager might be the most overrated position in sports. Joe Torre won a division title with the Braves, won nothing with the Mets, supposedly became a genius and one of the greatest managers of all time with the Yankees, where he coincidentally had the highest player payroll in baseball. Then he went to the Dodgers with a high payroll but less talent and apparently forgot how to manage.
I doubt Fredi Gonzales is worth more than 3 games in the standings in a 162 game season versus Mark Bradley, Jeff Schultz or Dave O’Brien.
Thanks Bobby!!!
October 13th, 2010
10:26 am
Hi Mark hope you are having an amazing day
Hankie Aron
October 13th, 2010
10:27 am
within the front office of course
Tami
October 13th, 2010
10:27 am
Well…you never know who Fredi will ultimately select as his coaching staff. Maybe he chooses Oquendo? Maybe he promotes Eddie to Bench Coach? There will be Pros and Cons to ANY Bobby-successor. Let’s give Fredi a chance. I’m hoping it doesn’t take the Braves’ organization as long to find the right guy to manage the team as it did in eventually finding Bobby. Bobby became pretty much untouchable once the team got its first WS Championship — rightly or wrongly. There will be turnover in the manager position a lot sooner than with Bobby. But hopefully Fredi is able to stick it out for awhile, and is successful.
jerry
October 13th, 2010
10:27 am
Cox went 266-323 in his first stint with the Braves. The Braves got better when they began to get better players. Cox was just another bum when he had lesser talent. So it goes with baseball managers.
Reid in EAV
October 13th, 2010
10:27 am
No question, following a legend is tough duty. But said legend is retiring, not being booted because “the organization wanted to go in a different direction.” So why go in a different direction just for the heck of it? Just the thought of bringing in a LaRussa disciple like Oquendo or an over-the-top screamer like Guillen to an organization like the Atlanta Braves, with the Bobby Cox stamp still on it from top to bottom (and Cox will still be in the management suite) sets my teeth on edge.
That said, I happen to like the ways Fredi differs from Cox. His style of in-game managing is different, and he’s a bigger fan of speed on the basepaths… something I love. (It’s said speed never goes into a slump. Very true. We’ve all seen the havoc a Nyjer Morgan or José Reyes can cause when getting on base regularly.)
And I would love some Bill James-ian analysis brought to bear, but I think Gonzalez is smart enough (and young enough) to incorporate that and employ it wisely where he thinks it’ll help. (I’d love to see some offseason moves specifically aimed at shoring up defense, with stats like UZR as a helpful guide. We made moves like that in ‘91 — Pendleton and Belliard were thought of primarily as glove-men — and it worked out pretty well for us, didn’t it?)
Just don’t mention names from the “bad old days” like Haas, Russ Nixon, Chuck Tanner, Bobby Wine… eek. Never again.
reckingball
October 13th, 2010
10:27 am
MB,…… if you want someone who is not a Cox acolyte, then how about Bobby Valentine, he is available.
Cox and Valentine have as much in common, as a chocolate cake, and a big pile of dog doo.
I kid, I kid, I would hate to have to see Valentine face, everytime the Braves played.
jimmya
October 13th, 2010
10:27 am
STILL HAVENT HEARD OF ALL THE GREAT PLAYERS WREN HAS GOT US
Gonna Miss Bobby but like Fredi, That's For Darn Sure
October 13th, 2010
10:27 am
The big O (organization you guys) has been one of the best in baseball for the past 20 years so I have no problem with sticking with an organization guy. The fact he has prior managerial experience makes it even better. I personally like the “Braves way of doing things” and hope it continues well beyond Bobby and Schuerholz. It’s a class organization when class is so often hard to find anywhere, especially in sports. Fredi and the oft maligned but oft on target Frank Wren have a great chance to do just that.
JC Boscan IV
October 13th, 2010
10:28 am
How is Fredi viewed as a tactician during the game?
Does he stubbornly stick to “lefty-righty” stereotypes without considering how the player actually performs (both pitchers and hitters)?
Will Fredi have much input into the 25-man roster, so that we might have more speed and baserunning aggressiveness in the lineup?
kgb
October 13th, 2010
10:28 am
I like the hire but it still comes down to having the players to compete. Will the Braves have them next year?
Will Chipper be back and if so can he produce at a high level? 3rd base is a real concern if Chippers not back.
Prado? – I believe he will come back strong.
1st base – can Freeman be productive his 1st year full time or do they try to keep Lee another year?
SS – Is Gonzo the answer for next year? Some doubts there. Inconsistent.
McCann – solid if he can hold up – keeping Ross is a plus – catching is a strength.
Heyward – does he progress or tread water? – need 30+ homers & 100+ rbi’s from him next year.
CF & LF? – what’s the answer there? Big holes to fill. Without some upgrades there it will be tough to improve.
Solid Manager – got that.
ugatiger
October 13th, 2010
10:28 am
Time will tell!
Techman
October 13th, 2010
10:29 am
I’m ok with the move but I agree with you, I wish we had someone in here that combined statistical analysis with baseball knowledge to make baseball decisions.
helmet head
October 13th, 2010
10:31 am
So Fredi never lifted the Marlins to the playoffs? In that same time how many times did Bobby lift the Braves to the playoffs? A team with a much higher payroll…just this year by the narrowest of margin. Fredi is the guy!
jimmya
October 13th, 2010
10:31 am
I DONT GUESS ANYONE CAN NAME ONE HUH
Jim
October 13th, 2010
10:31 am
So many people have assumed the Braves woke up Tuesday and said “uh oh, we need a manager. Does anyone have Fredi’s number?”. They have been working on this for a year looking at all the possibilities and who would be available. They may have made their decision months ago but there has been time to make a decision based on what they think is best for the team and franchise. My guess is Fredi has been working behind the scenes looking at personnel, free agents,trades etc with Wren so when that day came and Bobby was gone they could hit the ground running. The organizational meetings are next week and our new manager is not going in there without a clue. Sounds like a smart move to me. Wren and company know more than me or anyone else posting here about major league baseball. I think they can figure out who is capable to manage the Braves. Bobby was the best by far and if he approves this move that too is good enough for me.
Resign or Resign?
October 13th, 2010
10:31 am
The reason for the quick move is that Fredi was sure to be offered any one of several managerial openings during the season. The Braves obviously promised him Bobby’s job if he would wait ’til after the season.
GTSteve
October 13th, 2010
10:31 am
Good hire here, no doubt…and for the record I think that it was done weeks ago
CraZyTraDeMaN
October 13th, 2010
10:34 am
Josh Kinsey
You can’t cut players under contract to save money like Football.
KK and Mclouth are here to stay unless traded. Much of the 12 million you spoke of earlier will go to raises and arbitration. Bench players need to be signed and a couple veteran arms will be needed in the pen. There won’t be much left to sign a big free agent. If we make a big splash this offseason it’s likely to be through a trade. If Chipper retires or Lowe gets traded all bets are off that changes everything.
GTSteve
October 13th, 2010
10:34 am
I would have liked to have seen how far the Braves would have went with Chipper, Prado, Wagner, Medlen, and JJ on the field instead of on the DL
Reid in EAV
October 13th, 2010
10:34 am
What Jim said. I knew a deal was in place when Fredi turned down the Cubs job. This was not hastily done.
jmart1951
October 13th, 2010
10:35 am
Its really unfair to compare now to “back in the day”. The most important reason that Cox did what he did was that he had the players to do it with. Cox was a great GM. He had good scouts and a good ability to select players that would either play for the Braves or have value in trades to bring missing pieces to the Braves.
Freddie G comes in with a loaded minor league system with regard to pitching. He comes in with a great starting staff and a relieving corp that is both young and awesome (maybe a few growing pains next year). He comes in with a good core of every day players to build around.
The only thing that BC had that Freddie G will not have is an owner that was willing to spend money to try and get the best players possible. Filling the gaps in the Braves lineup is going to take some very good scouting and player analysis. Bobby Cox is still working for the Braves and based on what he did as a GM he should be part of the player identification process.
In my opinion BC was a better GM than a manager.
Halberstram
October 13th, 2010
10:36 am
Gonzalez is actually into sabremetrics and statistical analysis. There’s several articles that back that up if you look for them.