After an egregious loss, we ask: Have the Hawks hit a wall?
Twelve days ago Mike Woodson said of his Hawks: “We’re right where we want to be. We’ve closed the gap on the top three teams, and now we’ve got to make a serious push and be committed. After the All-Star break, we have to really concentrate on trying to win our division … Somehow we’ve got to try to get the second spot [in the East].”
File that under “message not received.”
The night of Woodson’s call for commitment, his team lost by 18 points at home to the sub-.500 Miami Heat. The Hawks have since lost two of three on their Western swing, which can happen. But it shouldn’t happen when the second of those comes against a lousy Golden State team missing Corey Maggette on a night when the Hawks hold an 18-point lead. And now we have to ask: Has this club hit the wall?
After Jamal Crawford beat Phoenix at the buzzer on Jan. 15, the Hawks were 26-13. They’re 8-7 since. They’ve dropped from first place in the NBA Southeast to fourth in the Eastern Conference, which is where they don’t want to be.
Woodson’s point about needing to win the division is self-evident: If you finish ahead of Orlando, you’ll probably be second in the East, which would keep you clear of Cleveland until the Eastern Conference finals and give you the homecourt edge for two rounds, not just one. Instead the Hawks have fallen 2 1/2 games behind the Magic.
Yes, it’s a long season and every team hits lulls — Cleveland is 0-3 since the break — but the Hawks are the youngest of the East’s Big Four, and if any team figured to be fresh after the All-Star Game it was this. But the Hawks were chased down by the Warriors, who are 16-39 and who had eight healthy players. (Then again, Woodson played only nine men himself. No minutes for Mo Evans or Joe Smith.)
Joe Johnson got blindsided by Monta Ellis for a steal and tying hoop with a minute left. Golden State took a lasting lead on a free throw resulting from Jamal Crawford’s technical foul. (T’ed up with 34 seconds left in a tie game? Are you kidding me?) The Hawks mustered 14 fourth-quarter points against the team that ranks last in the NBA in defense.
It was exactly the sort of loss a team positioning itself for the playoffs cannot have. Even if the Hawks win tonight in Salt Lake City, Sunday’s game in Oakland cannot be retrieved. The schedule is about to get softer, but the questions now aren’t about the opponent. They’re about the Hawks. Are they as good as they seemed in January? Or have they gone as far as they can go?
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210 comments Add your comment
Dan the Nerd
February 22nd, 2010
1:41 pm
When this team passes the ball they can beat anybody. It only takes a couple of Iso-Joe possesions to completely get them out of their offense and once that happens, they are sunk.
Woody has hit his cieling – he can’t take this team higher. Bibby’s legs are gone and he is now a slower version of Randy Whitman only he doesn’t shoot as well and nobody sets screens for him. I am not so quick to pull the plug on Marvin – only because nobody ever passes him the ball. Remember last season when he was getting the ball in position to shoot? Aint seen that happen this season. Bibby can’t pass to anyone but Joe and Joe don’t pass.
Next year’s starting lineup looks intriguing: Teague, Jamal, Al, Josh and Marvin. Not sure who the coach will be.
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
1:42 pm
Shaquille O’Neal won’t beat the Hawks. LeBron James could, though.
Angus
February 22nd, 2010
1:42 pm
I’m certainly no insider and this is 100% conjecture, but I’m convinced that neither Joe, Josh, or Woody get along with each other very well.
I’m not sure what else would explain the severe lack of cohesion in big games/moments.
We desperately need Joe, Josh, and Woody (the three most important Hawks) “on the same team” and it rarely seems that way in the face of any adversity.
Rock Preston
February 22nd, 2010
1:43 pm
Again…all of us have stated over and over again. Woody is clueless as a coach (offensively and momentum adjustments)…Marvin is a BUST who cant even crack the lineup at the end of games much less contribute during the 1st 3 qtrs and Mike Bibby has lost whatever he had coming out of Arizona and at Sacramento’s hi time in the early 2000’s. It is time to get a coach in here who recognizes, in-game, what Woody states after games that costs us these close games. I cant believe this guy is still the coach of the HAWKS!!! He is a joke!!!
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
1:43 pm
Don’t know why Joe wouldn’t get along with Woodson. The coach gives him the ball in the fourth quarter.
Rock Preston
February 22nd, 2010
1:44 pm
Our team is as undisciplined as ever on offense. Its like they do whatever the hell they want on offense…Playground pickup style….No team gets away with that junk when it counts…Woody…Your days are numbered my Mr. Potato Head lil friend. Catch the next thing smoking outta the ATL after we get bounced in the 1st round.
hawkfan
February 22nd, 2010
1:45 pm
yes woody is depending way 2 much on Joe… He is burning his starters even with a decent bench.. That said, I question the commitment of some of the Hawks…. To many times in last nights game i saw 3 or 4 hawks standing and watching the ball bounce around like they were in a trance or to lazy to go and get it, while GS team made a concerted mad rush for it. Go Hawks
Rock Preston
February 22nd, 2010
1:45 pm
We wont go far b/c of a stubborn coach’s inability to want or be able to make necessary adjustments…IN GAME!! This clown states the obvious after games!!! This is going to get ugly very quickly and hopefully Sund will not extend this clown (Woodson).
TomaHawk
February 22nd, 2010
1:46 pm
Woody has only one play in his playbook and that is ISO Joe. I would like to see ball movement. Joe move without the ball to get open(like Jesus Shuttlesworth), run some pick & roll, some in to the post then back out to the perimeter. Woody shelve ISO Joe for the rest of the season, please!
JawjuhBoy
February 22nd, 2010
1:48 pm
The Hawks’ problem is the same as when Nique played. No enforcer. Nobody to knock people down and intimidate. They’re too soft, mentally and physically. Their collective heart is the size of an acorn. This team, in its present form, will NEVER make the finals. A Charles Oakley type is our greatest need…
concerned
February 22nd, 2010
1:48 pm
Its not that shaq would beat the hawks it is the match up problems that hurts what about on the offensive end how will Al play. Again do you feel they will make it past the second round just a question. If not what pieces do they need in your opinion.
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
1:49 pm
Read this on ESPN.com: “Atlanta just became the first team since Kansas City in 1978, according to our unstoppable friends at Elias, to take a lead of at least 15 points into the fourth quarter against Golden State and lose. Which is to say: Yikes!”
MannyT
February 22nd, 2010
1:51 pm
It is not a question of hitting a wall. It IS a question of hitting a ceiling.
Minutes are better distributed so I doubt that they are tired. Although that iron man 2nd half in Phoenix was a bad idea.
Remember, Golden State’s feared Nellieball was down to 8 guys…half of which got to the NBA via the D-League. We should have been able to overwhelm them based on numbers of fresh, talented bodies.
As for the offense, Woody NEEDS to use the Chuck Daly model. Keep running the same play for the hot guy until the other side figures out how to stop you or the guy is no longer hot.
There is a confidence and a killer instinct that this team does NOT have. Lesser teams see the Hawks as the biggest guy in the playground that they can sucker punch to keep the bullies away. Unfortunately, the Hawks play right into the big guy with a glass jaw mold.
Think about it. The guy with the most swagger in the 4th quarter is the guy who has the longest tenure without playoff experience (Crawford). The guys with the next strongest swagger is Josh. I know he missed the 3 last night, but he didn’t shy away from it even though he has sworn them off except in extreme situations.
Bibby needs to see Austin Powers because someone has stolen his mojo. He had it when he got here, but it is AWOL right now.
Joe is doing ok, but he is not the type of guy that puts the team on his back and drags them to victory. He’s more of a momentum guy. If we are going in the right direction, he can accelerate the process, but he rarely takes over games late in the 4th anymore.
While it is easy to point to Woody, I think it is a collective thing. You need a guy that has some of that I’ll smack my mama to win attitude. You don’t want 12 of them, but 3 or 4 would be good.
I won’t say nice guys finish last, but I will say they need to be ahead by 3 or 4 late in the game instead of behind.
BWAF
WonderDawg
February 22nd, 2010
1:51 pm
Mark, got to disagree with you, but last night when Josh went out with 4 fouls, everyone on the Warriors went straight to the paint, over and over, fearlessly. Even the tiny Curry. Horford is a really good, big basketball player, but not a legitimate big man. Teams with good bigs have their way with Al. It’s just true. Watch closely whenever Josh goes out and Al is on the court. Other teams go right at him.
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
1:52 pm
I thought they could make it past Round 2 coming into the season. Now I’m beginning to wonder. I really don’t like the way the playoff bracket shapes up. The Hawks are going to face Cleveland or the Magic in Round 2, and they’re 0-5 against those teams. And they wouldn’t, as it stands, have the homecourt against either.
MannyT
February 22nd, 2010
1:55 pm
The best playoff setup for the Hawks is for them to be #2 and Boston to be #3 seed. Anything else and it will be a tough road to get past the 2nd round. If they want some extra insurance add Charlotte opposite Cleveland in the 1st round and Orlando in the 2nd. Maybe they fall or get exhausted before the conference finals.
BWAF
MJB
February 22nd, 2010
1:56 pm
Mark please answer this:
Is Woody the best coach for our situation?
We are one of if not the most athletic teams in the league yet we only run on half the opportunites.
No offensive strategy and yet we average over 100 points, what if we brought in somebody that actually installed a playbook instead of iso plays and swing the ball around the perimeter then jack up the 3
The team doesnt actually listen to woody, if they did do they lose an 18 point lead? does josh shot the 3 he hasnt made in years? does joe have a career year in an expiring contract as players of his caliber should? do we even still need mike bibby if a good coach comes in and shows crawford how to pass and teague how to develop to be a good point?
I like woody but since we started to develop into a playoff team ive questioned if this is the right situation… u dont have larry brown coach the showtime lakers… so why do we have larry brown’s deciple running a team with that same type of athleticism?
concerned
February 22nd, 2010
1:57 pm
Mark thanks for indulging me. I agree with you totally. What pieces would we need to better match up with those two teams. Particularly, Orlando because they have not only beaten us but outright dominated us.
Ted M
February 22nd, 2010
1:58 pm
I’m “concerned” too, but about making it out of the first round.
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
1:59 pm
Who’s a legitimate big man? Kendrick Perkins? Didn’t the Celtics win a title with him at center?
For everyone who says Horford isn’t a center, I ask this: Name five better. Obviously Dwight Howard. And I’ll count Tim Duncan as a center, although the Spurs list him as a forward. Andrew Bogut? Andrew Bynum? Shaq at age 37? Brook Lopez?
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
2:00 pm
The Hawks don’t run enough, MJB. I wish they’d run more, but they don’t.
heartofdarkness
February 22nd, 2010
2:00 pm
The team seems as gridlocked as congress. The offense works best when there is ball movement and player movement without the ball. But if the Hawks miss a couple open shots, the mindset seems to default to one on one with four observers. Interior passing disappears against good teams in tight games (except against the Celtics). Maybe the team has not internalized a system for beating other contenders sufficiently to capitalize on their advantages under pressure. In short, the problem seems more mental than physical. That being said, the team’s deficiencies on defense against penetrating guards remains unaddressed and a role for Teague’s unique skills has not been developed to diversify the offense.
Tim from EP
February 22nd, 2010
2:01 pm
Mark, I have to disagree with you on Al Hortford. Al is clearly playing out of position. Except for maybe Miami, Al Hortford gives up height and/or weight to any other starting center on a Eastern Conference playoff team. And seeing how the Hawks will either face Orlando or Cleveland in the 2nd round of the playoffs, how can you seriously think that Horford is a viable option at the center position? Hortford gets by at center because he is usually more athletic, quicker and is a little more skillful than most big man. If you are comparing Hortford to that 610-11 guy shoot 3’s and plays like a guard, then yea I can see how you think Hortford is a center. But as much as I like Hortford, he aint Mourning to where he can hold down the center position at 6′10
Angus
February 22nd, 2010
2:01 pm
You’re probably right about Joe-Woody. I guess Joe’s unassuming/insecure demeanor always leads me think he’s not happy here.
So how ugly do you think tonight will be? Any chance Bibby/Teague are any more than speed bumps in front of he-who-should-have-also-been-taken-before-Marvin?
MCook
February 22nd, 2010
2:05 pm
They look sloppy and tired. Poor coaching in the 4th…what’s new?
F-105 Thunderchief
February 22nd, 2010
2:06 pm
On third thought, FIRE WOODY!
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
2:07 pm
One of the issues I have with Joe, Angus, is that he tends to be more sour than a team leader needs to be. Read his quotes: They’re almost always downbeat.
Ted M
February 22nd, 2010
2:08 pm
wow the Hawks schedule really does ease up for the next few weeks. Toronto on March 17 will be an important game.
concerned
February 22nd, 2010
2:10 pm
Yea the celtics won But perkins was a role player and understood his role. They still got a ton of high % baskets from KG. If we had that kind of scoring down low we can have a role player at center. Thats not to mention the celtics outside shooting. If Marvin or josh were better outside shooters Al would be fine, but neither of our forwards take pressure off Al by making outside shots.
John
February 22nd, 2010
2:12 pm
I am not trying to bash any one player, but I really think the weakness is BIbby. I was glad resigned him, and still think he can play better. However, I think his minutes could be cut down and that would help him, the development of Teague, and the whole team. I think Teague is good enough to contribute on a nightly basis. We are always ending games with Al, Josh, Joe, Jamal, and Bibby on the court. Bibby is not bringing us anything at the end of games and his defense is not very good. Why not let Marvin stay in and let Joe and Jamal run the point. Marvin is knocking down more shots than Bibby. Also, as everyone has said, the use of the bench is terrible. There is no reason Mo Evans should not log one minute. I was excited that we brought Joe Smith in and actually thought we would get 10-15 minutes everygame with him, but even he did not play last night. I don’t think there is an excuse for that. Unlike many people, I don’t think Marvin is the problem. When you are the 5th option on the starting five and you have the leading scorer in the league off the bench, you are not going to get too many looks. Your thoughts Mark?
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
2:15 pm
I think Marvin would be better utilized off the bench, John. He’d get more shots with the second unit, even though the Hawks really don’t have a second unit anymore, than he does with the starters. I’d start Mo Evans instead.
jokurone
February 22nd, 2010
2:16 pm
Slide continues tonight in Utah… Hawks lose by 20
JB
February 22nd, 2010
2:18 pm
Let Mike Woodson walk after the season is over, get a real coach in there like Byron Scott or Avery Johnson. Short term fix sign Big Z and let him back up big horford…..also sign Joe J back and trade bibby not the player he once was..
Cobwebs
February 22nd, 2010
2:19 pm
Marvin is 80%-plus percent from the FT line and he is athletic enough to get to the rim even though he cannot convert when he gets there – when we are stagnant on O he needs to take it to the hoop – Bibby’s shooting has gone cold because Jamal is getting a lot of his minutes – Flip was less threatening to Bibby and he like Jamal was also a microwave – Jason Collins, Randolph Morris and Joe Smith are collecting cobwebs on the bench even though they are all more savvy than Zaza – J-Smoove needs to stop launching jumpers and start taking it to the hole also – I would rather see him hit 1 of 2 free throws than see him jack up another brick from the field – It’s high time for Woody to pull his tail from between his legs and coach like his goal is to get the team to the EC finals
Joe Johnson pleasestay
February 22nd, 2010
2:21 pm
MARK: Al Horford dominated Chris Kaman?? It was the freakin Clippers for Gods Sakes!! Is that all u got??! He couldnt handle The Lopez kid in Phoenix and almost got outplayed by there center last night. They had too many offensive rebounds to be a small team. Other than sweeping the aging celtics, the hawks have not had a significant win since beating the NUGGETS earlier in the year and they werent even at full force.
Josh Smith started complaing at tip-off. He was not hustling and he walked up the court every time on defense. Mike Bibby looked awful, no defense and worst of all, no offense to makeup for his lack of defense. I dont think I even heard Marvin’s name the whole game.
My points:
#1 We cant continue to play Al at the 5 and expect to go far in the playoffs against teams with legitimate bigs (CLE,ORL,LAL)
#2 We CAN get rid of Marvin or bench his behind
#3 We cant move Josh to the 3 ( cant dribble or shoot, and for some reason he wont give the ball to a guard on fast brakes)
#4 We can get Teague more minutes since Bibby is not producing
#5 DID I say get rid of MARVIN?? Its like 4 on 5 out there.
I think we are scared to retool. We have gotten comfortable with the guys we have in the starting lineup and they dont matchup with the top tier teams. Someone has to be benched. Either Josh or Horford and bring in a true center. I prefer to bench Josh because he leaves Al in the paint alone to much. I know centers are hard to come by but thats what Rick Sund was hired for. Obviously its to late to do anything this year since we stood pat and did nothing to improve. The CAVS have LBJ an SHAQ and they still made moves to get better!!! LETS GO HAWKS!!!!
FIRE WOODY..MARVIN
NC Braves Fan
February 22nd, 2010
2:23 pm
You do kinda wonder what the future holds for Woody. It would seem that Sund’s philosophy on building the team (build a deep bench and try to win without a superstar player) and Woody’s game strategy (which focuses on 8 or so guys at the most it would seem) are not in synch.
concerned
February 22nd, 2010
2:25 pm
FYI Al is about to interview on the Scott VanPelt show interested to hear what he has to say.
Steffon572
February 22nd, 2010
2:25 pm
Is it me or does Joe always look unhappy. I mean smile, joke, get mad show me some kind of emotions. He just looks like he hates being here and I think that attitude flows thru they team. They dont look like a team having fun its like someone told them they were good so now they have to live up to it and they are to young to handle the pressures
Ted M
February 22nd, 2010
2:27 pm
FINALS!!! (spoken like Mora and PLAYOFFS)…ha Toronto started the season 7 and 13 and they are 24 and 11 since. Atl started 14 and 6 and they are 20 and 14 since. The teams split so far with each winning in blowout at home.
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
2:27 pm
Joe is a fairly downbeat guy, Steffon. I don’t know how else to say it.
allan in texas
February 22nd, 2010
2:28 pm
Mark, I would not wish for anyone to lose their job, but I am of the belief that Coach Woodson will be gone after this year. Also, Do you know what the relationship is like between Joe Johnson and Management? [ Possible sign and trade if he does not wish to return}.I would try to get all that I can get for him if he does not want to return to Atlanta.
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
2:29 pm
Sign and trade would be an option, allan. And there are people around the league who believe Joe is the biggest name apt to change teams this summer.
I disagree. I think the Hawks will max out to retain him. They’ve got no choice.
Tim from EP
February 22nd, 2010
2:29 pm
Mark Bradley are you serious. Kendrick Perkins is listed at 280 and this man got in shape this season. Hortford can’t bang with him at 245- 250 for 48 minutes. Maybe that’s why the Celtics did win a championship with him as Center. No one is saying Hortford is bad as center, I think we are trying to say he his BETTER as PF! I’m pretty sure Karl Malone could have got by as a decent center, but the man’s skills were more suited for a PF. It’s the same scenario for Hortford.. The following centers all cause match up problems for Horford(in no particular order): D-Howard, Shaq(even at 37 on just his size alone) Perkins (dude is a beast, slightly more than Hortford), Tim Duncan, Haywood, Bynum(I hate to say it). Ironically, there is a 90% chance we are going to see either Howard or Shaq in the 2nd round of the playoffs. I think the major problem is that no one expects the Hawks to be champions and we as fans and sportswriter don’t hold the organization as whole to expectations of being a champion. Part of being a champion is having the correct pieces. The main purpose of being a center is to clog up the lane. Its not always about how good you are overall. Would I build my franchise around Kendrick Perkins. Hell no! Would I put him as a center at 280 pounds with a mean streak, if I already had superb pieces around him. You damn right I would. He fits the mold as a center. Hortford simply does not.
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
2:30 pm
That’s another consideration, Ted M. Toronto is playing very well. And you know who’s the Raptor point guard? Jarrett Jack.
Mark Bradley
February 22nd, 2010
2:31 pm
If Perkins causes so many problems for the Hawks, why is Boston 0-4 against them?
Ted M
February 22nd, 2010
2:32 pm
bench Josh … I think that’s the stupidest thing I’ve heard
jon
February 22nd, 2010
2:33 pm
Mark I agree with you about Marvin and bringing him off the bench, his head now is all mixed up and he’s just not getting it done. Where was Mo Evans last night? That was embarressing, to tell you the truth, we maybe a first round knock out, they can’t deal with success and Woody has not done a good job either.
Pete
February 22nd, 2010
2:34 pm
Hit a wall ??
The Hawks, along with 90% of the NBA, have the work ethic of a prison road work gang. They do it because they HAVE to. None of these spoiled, pampered jokers have evr held a regular job where true work and dedication are a must for promotion.
Name another sport where 18 to 20 point leads are blown in minutes……….this would be 40 to 50 point leads in football.
Basketball is home to lazy, dull minded, ignorant young men who could do little or nothing else in life.
Hit a wall ??
Get serious, and examine who and what plays the game.
SWAT Native
February 22nd, 2010
2:34 pm
If you read the article that either ESPN or SI did on the Hawks about a month ago, they quoted Woody as saying in a team meeting that he thought that the Hawks were good enough to score enough points so he wasn’t concerned about that, but his focus would be on the defensive end. I think that it’s fine that he wants to do that, but Woody needs to hire an offensive coordinator like some other teams have done. You can’t just ignore one side of the ball when you get to the higher level of the league. If the Hawks have hit a wall, I think that’s what it is – it’s their inability to score consistently in the clutch, especially when forced into a half-court game. That’s where most of their losses come from.
Gmack
February 22nd, 2010
2:37 pm
Mark
I’m not sure if they’ve hit a wall, but losing to the Warriors suck. I read that report from ESPN, and that should tell you something.
I think the Hawks biggest challenge is they lack a floor leader. They need someone to be the coach on the floor.