Audience participation time! Rate Braves’ offseason moves!
This was where we left it. Two of these guys play elsewhere now. (AJC photo by Curtis Compton)
Pitchers and catchers report tomorrow. Those words make some folks get all misty-eyed, but I have to confess they leave me unmoved. Probably because I hate watching teams practice in any sport. Give me real games!
But I digress.
The offseason is almost officially over. The Braves made some moves, as you know. (Say this for Frank Wren: He’s a movin’ man.) Here’s what I think of this club as currently configured, but I’d like a little audience participation, too. Tell me which transactions you liked, and which you didn’t. Unless you happened loved them all, which I guess would make you Frank Wren.
You’ll note that Johnny Damon’s name is not included below. Speculation is rampant that he’ll sign with either the Tigers or the White Sox, though speculation has been known to be wrong. He still might land here, I guess, but I’d be surprised. Though I’m often surprised.
And I didn’t include the Braves’ cutting of Ryan Church or Kelly Johnson because frankly I can’t imagine anyone disagreeing with those moves. But I am including everyone’s favorite pinch-hitter in our mix.
So here it is, our veritable Murderer’s Row of polling. You can vote once in each, and I encourage you to do so. And I thank you in advance.
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221 comments Add your comment
extremus
February 18th, 2010
10:19 am
I’m very glad to hear Jurrjens’ shoulder situation wasn’t serious; otherwise we’d never hear the end of how bad the Vazquez trade was for the Braves (especially in the short-term). Most prognosticators appear to have the Braves finishing above .500 but basically competing for a wild card, not a divisional title. The Braves have basically made moves designed to either hold their current competitiveness or, I’m sure Frank Wren is hoping, to exceed everyone’s wildest expectations as they did in 1991. I think it was Heyman at SI.com who wrote the statement (and I’m paraphrasing) “wouldn’t it be justice if in Bobby Cox’s final year, the Braves won the WOrld Series when they were clearly NOT the best team on the field?
Hey, I could live with that.
jeffrey d
February 18th, 2010
10:20 am
That’s what happened when we traded for Vazquez.
“WHAT? We gave up a top catching prospect for a pitcher like Vazquez??!?”
Wren definitely bought low and sold high on this one
DirtyDawg
February 18th, 2010
10:20 am
The disappointing thing to me is that the Braves don’t have the confidence of Liberty Media to use their money wisely – which includes having to ‘eat’ some of Lowes’ money (so they could trade him, or even just pay him and keep him) in order to increase your odds of making it to the post season and, perhaps, winning it all. Vasquez was the ‘man’, and who knows who’ll hold up.
As for Kelly Johnson, he very well may ‘outhit’ Cabrera, but he won’t be playing second base while he’s doing it. Somehow we never would admit that the kid, if he was going to contribute day-in-and-day-out, had to be moved back to the outfield. That’s where he’ll be playing most of his games for the rest of whatever his career is to be.
Biff Pocaroba
February 18th, 2010
10:21 am
Bobby told me that “Norton was the glue that held the sandwich together”. We’ll never know all the times he intentionally struck out just to make the other players feel better about themselves.
DirtyDawg
February 18th, 2010
10:22 am
Oh I forgot….if you can play third base, you can play first. It’s hands and reactions. The toughest thing for a right-hander is the footwork in making the throw to second on DPs, and all that takes is practice which overcomes ‘muscle-memory’.
Poorbrave
February 18th, 2010
10:35 am
Mark you’re right no great moves…except Norton.
Greg Norton
February 18th, 2010
10:50 am
Where’s the love for the Greg Norton? This was clearly an Epic Fail. Without Norton, upon who or what will AJC columnists and flummoxed fans pour our their wrath for Bobby Cox’s stubborn refusal to give up on players who just can’t get the job done? Maybe we need a new poll: Who will be this year’s Greg Norton? Any candidates?
Greg Norton
February 18th, 2010
10:51 am
My grammar escapes me, should read, “upon whom.”
Jesse Stone
February 18th, 2010
10:56 am
Frank Wren overspent last offseason for starting pitching and we are paying for it now. We got a pitcher in return who MAY be able to help us in 2013 and we got the reincarnation of Ryan Church in the deal. Boy, that Frank Wren drives a hard bargain.
Chumlee
February 18th, 2010
10:58 am
How many times are we going to hear that the Vaz trade could be the equivalent of the Doyle Alexander-Smoltz trade? Sounds like UGA fans saying Joe Cox could be the next Tee Martin.
Coach (2011 or Bust)
February 18th, 2010
11:06 am
I have to disagree with the majority of the vote, Troy Glaus if healthy will turn out to be one hell of a great move on the part of Frank Wren.
ProScout
February 18th, 2010
11:14 am
Wake up people, nobody wanted to pick up Lowe’s contract, especially at his age. It was highly unlikely the Braves could afford to resign Vasquez after this year anyway. Trading him made the most sense.
Those of you talking about his young pitching staff need to remember that Jurjjens is a Boras client and his contract is up in 2 years. Chipper is WAY past being productive. The Braves don’t need Chipper to hit .285/15/50, those guys are a dime a dozen. If he’s not hitting .320/25/85 (those power numbers are a minimum he needs to hit) he’s not helping the Braves win.
There is also absolutley no team speed on this team. Take a look at the SB numbers for the playoff teams this past year and then take a look at the Braves numbers.
You have to have pitching/hitting (power)/speed. The Braves have 1 of these and after the starter goes out there are HUGE question marks.\
This is all good for my employer. Keep it up.
raleighbravefan
February 18th, 2010
11:20 am
In response to my 10:08 and 10:14 posts, no one has stated what we SHOULD have done as an alternative to trading JV (except for imposible trades or a bigger payroll, which was not an option). Come on, you FW haters, give me a RATIONAL response (not a Don-like diatrab against BC or FW in general). I want to hear specifics. If you have none, then SHUT UP. If you DO have realistic alternatives and solutions, I want to hear them (seriously).
Bobby Hill
February 18th, 2010
11:25 am
I think Wren actually got a pretty good return for Vazquez. We’ve got to remember that Vazquez has only one year left on his contract. My problem with the trade is that it made the team weaker for this coming season, and supposedly the Braves are in a win now mode. (Wren’s moves this off season do not support the assert that the team is trying to win now.)
Maybe Wren had to cut payroll. Maybe he got the best he could possibly get for Vazquez. Maybe Wren made the most of a bad situation. My point is that the situation was entirely his own doing. There was no need to acquire three starting pitchers on multi-year deals a year ago. With Hanson ready, a Hudson re-signing never really in doubt, it was obvious from the time camp broke that somebody was going to have to go before 2010. Wren put himself in a spot where he had to make a trade, and every other GM in the league knew it.
Wren would have been better off signing Randy Wolfe or Jon Garland to a one year deal, than signing Lowe. For that matter he could have signed both Garland and Wolfe for 2009 for what he paid Lowe in the same time period.
raleighbravefan
February 18th, 2010
11:31 am
Some of the same guys who say Wren signed too many pitchers in 2009 are now saying we shouldn’t get rid of any of them this year. HUH?
sportsmandh
February 18th, 2010
11:35 am
I think the team is very solid. I think they have a real chance to catch lightning in a bottle and have a very good season. I don’t think Wren has made any really bad moves. I think the Braves are going to suprise a lot of their gloom and doom fans this year. They are better put together than at the start of last season, have a very good combination of vets and young talent, and they have great depth.
Don
February 18th, 2010
11:37 am
RALEIGHBRAVEFAN, if you want specifics about Bobby Cox, please refer to my post at 10:15 (above) — and these things are just the tip of the iceburg and do not even get into his game by game management tactics and lack thereof.
raleighbravefan
February 18th, 2010
11:41 am
Bobby Hill et al – No one could predict that JV would have a career best year in 2009. No one knew for sure when Hanson would be ready or how good he would be. No one knew how Hudson would recover from surgery.
All of the above happened for the good, and we did end up with an extra pitcher for 2010. (BTY, KK finished strong, and I believe he will be solid in 2010).
Did he pay too much for Lowe? The jury is still out. He had a down year in 2009 (still won 15). I expect him to bounce back. However, he was best available at the time, and Wren had to shore up the pitching staff. The same guys who are complaining now were clammering for Wren to do something before the 2009 season. If you look at what pitchers are making, Lowe is not grossly overpaid, especially if he returns to career normal performance. Look at the Mets and Oliver Perez. Now THAT’S an example of overpaying.
bvillebaron
February 18th, 2010
11:41 am
Bobby Hill:
I don’t agree that the moves Wren made this offseason won’t help the team win now. Although I would love to see the Braves win the NL East, I think they can only realistically hope to get the wild card this year due to the strenth of the Phillies. The Braves’ chance to get the wild card is based upon the strong starting rotation and bullpen.
I for one think that Hudson will have a strong comeback season and prove why he has been a better pitcher throughout his career than Vazquez. I also think the bullpen is better with Wagner and Saito. Wagner is the first top shelf closer this team has had since John Smoltz and Saito is not that far removed from being a very good closer for the Dodgers. I realize that Wagner is 38 and Saito 40, but both have been better career wise than Gonzo and Soriano.
While you always have to be concerned about how Wagner will bounce back from TJ, the fact is he pitched great last September and many pitchers are stronger after TJ surgery than before. Besides, Gonzo has also already had TJ surgery and Soriano has missed substantial time with the Braves due to his own arm problems and thus can both be considered injury “risks” as much as Wagner and Saito.
I think that adding an expensive player like Bay on a long-term deal would not appreciably help the team’s chances to win the wild card this year (particularly if Heyward is the real deal) and would only hamstring the team financially (like it or not Wren has budget constraints the Yankees, Red Sox and even the Phillies don’t) when it would be appropriate to add key players to the Braves’ young core of Hanson, Jurrjens, Kimbrel, Vizcaino, Teheran, McCann, Escobar, McLouth, Heyward, Freeman, etc.
raleighbravefan
February 18th, 2010
11:46 am
Don – I was actually looking for specifics about moves WREN has made. We all know how you feel about Cox. Many disagree, and I have given specific examples in the past stating the opposing view. He will be gone after this year, either way.
Skeezix
February 18th, 2010
11:52 am
The worst thing that happened this offseason? —the Braves not replacing an incompetent GM.
Town Character Art Leo
February 18th, 2010
11:56 am
We need to track down the 137 people who characterized not resigning Norton as “epic fail” and beat them with a sock full of manure.
raleighbravefan
February 18th, 2010
11:59 am
Skeezix – Given the payroll restraints (not to mention the knowledge of specific players, what trades were available, what the actual costs were, etc. which Wren and the Braves organization had access to, and you don’t), what specific moves make Wren incompetent, and what different moves would you have made?
WinSomething
February 18th, 2010
12:01 pm
“I think Wagner will have the best closer year of any Brave that I can remember….yea, not saying much I know!” – Tom
2002-2004? Smoltz? 144 saves, 2.47 ERA, 1.003 WHIP over those 3 seasons.
2004 – 64 IP, 8 ER. 0.870 WHIP
Im not sure we can ask Wags to top any of those seasons at his age.
Otto
February 18th, 2010
12:11 pm
Bobby Hill appears more right that wrong folks. The only way he isn’t re: Lowe if is Lowe bounces back to almost career year form. Which is doubtful.
Short of that no one can explain away why Wren dropped $60mm over 4yrs on a guy who was in his mid 30s apart from overreacting to losing out on AJ Burnett. This was a crime of passion LOL not cool headed decisiveness.
Wren’s biggest FA signing as an ATL GM was not even close to being a prudent move – at the time or after the 2009 season. For a team with significant payroll constraints you cannot afford even on stinker like this one.
So far it is a bust signing and the whole team is paying for it.
That coupled with Wren giving 13-14mm/yr to Chipper b/c of a 1 batting title yr (which Tex assisted with by providing Chipper with protection for 1/2+ the year) was another questionable move.
Like Lowe unless Chipper has a near career year bounce back that extension will be pretty painful on this team and greatly constrain it.
That is 19mm/year tied up in two guys who are the wrong side of 35 with three years left on each of their deals.
Wren has done some good things (JJ & Gorkys, Ross) but when he swings and misses its pretty terrible and the effects are long lasting.
Again no one is perfect and clearly 2010 is a budget cut year so Wren is making lemonade out of lemons but his chess game skills (looking 10 moves ahead) need some work especially when his playing with house money and very little of it to boot.
2010 IMHO will make or break his tenure as the GM. This team face plants with oft injured guys continuing on their DL ways and Lowe fails to recover 2010 will be ugly and Wren will be on the hot seat.
All eyes are on Bobby riding off into the sunset but Wren should not be too comfortable. So far under his watch the team is doing no better than the JS collapse years that proceeded it.
If this team gets sold by Liberty in 2011 (when the can put it on the market) Wren and his crew will need a better resume to keep their jobs versus what has been done thus far.
But I digress. For today we can be optimistic about this team and hope injuries stay at a min b/c ST is the time of hope for all fans.
jmarable
February 18th, 2010
12:14 pm
I’ve been a braves fan 4 many moons,and i have never seen the organization pick up so many has beens.its a question of r we making moves to win or save money.We know the answer.we picked up nothing that can gives us a chance to battle the phillies.a lot of what if’s and keeping your fingers crossed.Its a long yr, the old guys r not gonna hold up 4 a 162 games.WAG GLAUSE CHIPPER THE OVER THE HILL CREW WILL FALL RATHER THAN STAND.Seasons to long,we r in trouble.rate the moves 1 to 10?= 1 U KNOW IT MARK, Come on man.outfield sucks.
Yurtle_the_turtle
February 18th, 2010
12:16 pm
The problem with the Braves’ moves this winter were that we got cheaper and more vulnerable. The moves are not High Risk/High Reward, they are High Risk/Medium Reward. Most everyone they have signed is coming off an injury or several injuries. Can Wagner last a full season? not sure. Can Glaus give you more than 120 games? Not sure. Even when healthy, Glaus did not give you a great presence on defense. His BA wan’t that high either. The Vasquez trade was underwelhming considering the number of teams looking for front-line pitchers. So there. That is Frank Wren’s winter in a nutshell.
Yurtle_the_turtle
February 18th, 2010
12:20 pm
Mark B…have you ever done a piece on Liberty Management? who the hell are these people and why do they own the Braves? I though once we got rid of corporate ownership, we were going to be free to spend again. (At least to the levels that large cities can afford and not a small market team)
Yurtle_the_turtle
February 18th, 2010
12:31 pm
I think ralieghbraves fan must be a relative of Wren. He thinks Wren is always right, can’t nobody can make a subjective remark of several poor moves. JV trade (front line pitcher for Melky Cabrera (bench player) isn’t a good move unless you’re dumping payroll. I guess then Wren is still a great GM because he does want the managment tells him what to do. And I won’t go into the poor handling of Smotz/Glavine from last year either.
Shane
February 18th, 2010
12:35 pm
Hey Greg Norton had a decent OBP.!!!
He could take a walk now and then.
Dr. R
February 18th, 2010
12:52 pm
Couple of observations. First, those still obsessed with Norton need to understand that as terrible as he was, a guy getting 4-5 at-bats a week is NOT going to be the difference between winning and losing, especially since the Braves weren’t all that close to making the playoffs. Had they lost out by a game or two, maybe. Secondly, Vazquez clearly wasn’t traded for baseball reasons, though he did have a career year, and he did choke in a couple of big games at the end (fitting his career path to date). That deal was an economic one; they couldn’t afford him, and Lowe and the other guys under contract. They tried to deal Lowe but had no takers, and likely couldn’t unload KK for the same reason. Thirdly, they didn’t come away empty-handed from that trade; Cabrera is no big deal but they did get two good young arms. And finally, anyone in Atlanta who still is a Kelly Johnson fan obviously is a girl who likes him because of reasons other than his baseball ability, which was negligible. Martin Prado’s big toe is a better second baseman.
Chumlee
February 18th, 2010
12:53 pm
Seriously???Tim Tucker does a blog on Mark Richt turning 50?
Cracker Jacket
February 18th, 2010
12:54 pm
Stupid moves!
Jesse Stone
February 18th, 2010
12:55 pm
I would rather have traded for Vizcaino and Dunn instead of having to eat Melky’s contract.
braves70
February 18th, 2010
12:59 pm
If Frank Wren’s hands have been tied (by the owners or whoever), great! Someone tie up his feet and tape his mouth and throw his sorry hide over the ship’s side so that we can sail toward success. His reign will go down as one of the great failures in Baseball history.
Ramblin Wrecker
February 18th, 2010
1:02 pm
How can anyone say that letting Greg Norton hit the bricks was an “Epic Fail”? Very rarely are their 100% certainties in life, heck even Babe Ruth didn’t get 100% in HOF voting. But not resigning a .145 hitter who had 0 HR’s and 7 RBI’s last season has to be a 100% certainty, right?
Ramblin Wrecker
February 18th, 2010
1:03 pm
In fact, that’s why I rated the Eric Hinske signing as a great move. Because it meant the end of Norton and replaced him with a guy who has hit 20 HR’s in a season as recently as 2008 and has played in the World Series three straight years.
Craig
February 18th, 2010
1:09 pm
My Projection for Braves 2010 season..
1.Diaz AVG. 290 RBI’s 60 HR 20 SB 20
2.Prado AVG.300 RBI’s 64 HR 15 SB 8
3.Jones AVG.270 RBI’s 75 HR 20 SB 3 Final season
4.McCann AVG.300 RBI’s 100 HR 27 SB 1 2nd place to Pujols for NL MVP
5.Glaus AVG.270 RBI’s 87 HR 26 SB 4 Takes Chipper’s Place at third in 2011
6.Mclouth AVG 276 RBI’s 78 HR 23 SB 24
7.Escobar AVG.290 RBI’s 90 HR 15 SB 12
8.Heyward AVG.315 RBI’s75 HR 14 SB 16 NL ROY and Golden Glove
9.Pitcher
Pitching
1.Hudson 17-8 ERA.3.67
2.Lowe 16-8 ERA 4.00
3.Jurrgens 19-5 ERA 2.76 NL CY
4. Hanson 18-7 ERA 2.89 3rd for NL CY
5.Smoltz 13-8 ERA 3.98 Final Season
Braves 95-67 Win Wild Card and NL Champs
Play Yankees for World Series and Win 4-3
GO BRAVES!!!!!!!!!
gabugman
February 18th, 2010
1:18 pm
Enter your comments here
gabugman
February 18th, 2010
1:19 pm
Dang enter key!
Robert,
He was subjected to TP and Booby.
Craig
February 18th, 2010
1:23 pm
My Projection for Braves 2010 season..
1.Diaz AVG. 290 RBI’s 60 HR 20 SB 20
2.Prado AVG.300 RBI’s 64 HR 15 SB 8
3.Jones AVG.270 RBI’s 75 HR 20 SB 3 Final season
4.McCann AVG.300 RBI’s 100 HR 27 SB 1 2nd place to Pujols for NL MVP
5.Glaus AVG.270 RBI’s 87 HR 26 SB 4 Takes Chipper’s Place at third in 2011
6.Mclouth AVG 276 RBI’s 78 HR 23 SB 24
7.Escobar AVG.290 RBI’s 90 HR 15 SB 12
8.Heyward AVG.315 RBI’s75 HR 14 SB 16 NL ROY and Golden Glove
9.Pitcher
Pitching
1.Hudson 17-8 ERA.3.67
2.Lowe 16-8 ERA 4.00
3.Jurrgens 19-5 ERA 2.76 NL CY
4. Hanson 18-7 ERA 2.89 3rd for NL CY
5.Smoltz 13-8 ERA 3.98 Final Season
Braves 95-67 Win Wild Card and NL Champs
Play Yankees for World Series and Win 4-3
GO BRAVES!!!!!!!!!
Mark Biles
February 18th, 2010
1:25 pm
A worse hitter than Greg Norton? Corky Miller!!!! I think every time he came to bad I just recorded an out on my scorecard and I hardly ever had to change it.
Greg Norton
February 18th, 2010
1:29 pm
Craig is quite the optimistic one.
Ramblin Wrecker
February 18th, 2010
1:31 pm
My favorite move is the one that’s yet to be made…Jason Heyward promoted to play RF. Here is an interesting stat comparison:
Player A
AVG OBP SLG OPS G AB R H
0.323 0.403 0.555 0.958 99 362 69 117
2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS
25 4 17 63 51 51 10 1
Player B
AVG OBP SLG OPS G AB R H
0.314 0.378 0.543 0.921 133 490 74 154
2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS
41 7 19 96 46 47 4 5
Who is who?
A=Jason Heyward
B=Albert Pujols
Hmmmm
Greg Norton
February 18th, 2010
1:35 pm
Thank you, Mr. Biles. Corky Miller was bad – but you can’t compare a back-up catcher to Greg Norton’s function in 2009 – basically, an everyday pinch-hitter. Corky’s season for games in ATL was only 31 in 2008, but Mr. Norton appeared in 95 games last year — that almost 60% of the season.
Jesse Stone
February 18th, 2010
1:40 pm
Norton had 16 more at bats than Corky did the year before. Saying he appeared in 95 games as opposed to Corky’s 31 is skewed.
raleighbravefan
February 18th, 2010
1:52 pm
Yurtle – I never said everything Wren has done has worked. It never will when your decisions are dependent upon the health and performance of another human being.
My point that you and others who criticize/hate Wren have missed is that you have only talked about how bad he has done, but have offered NO specific realistic alternatives to the choices he has made. I would love to hear that discussion, but so far I have only heard silence (for weeks/months) about what plausable moves available to the Braves GM that would have been better. BTW, you also have the 20/20 view of hindsight.
I will also point out ONCE AGAIN that the trade was not JV for Melky. It was JV for 3 players and a requisite salary dump, and Wren said many times that he didn’t want to trade JV. In fact, he had little other choice.
Rich Clary
February 18th, 2010
1:53 pm
Spring is a time for positive thinking,which you will not find here. So, I must be the only one who is looking forward to the 2010 season in Atlanta. After last season, everybody and his brother were screaming for more offense. We now have more offense and just one less pitcher. Vasquez,a strike-throwing machine,was good for a proven outfielder who can hit and play any field. Heyward is soon to be a star. We still have the best potential rotation in the game. Diaz will hit .300 and hustle. Glaus may do well. It’s Bobby’s last year and Chipper may be in the twilight, but what a player. Come on people, let’s load the wagon.
JabboRockefeller
February 18th, 2010
1:55 pm
The folks who said Norton shoulda been retained need to find their Lithium immediately! You’ve missed today’s dose.
Other than that, Wren should be publicly humiliated, before being unceremoniously fired, before being dressed in a feather suit and deposited at county’s edge…
Greg Norton
February 18th, 2010
2:01 pm
Stone, Skewed a little perhaps. But as a back-up catcher, Corky was going to get 2-3 or more ABs per game; thus the reason for the higher total. And you cannot overlook Greg Norton astounding 20 BBs for 2009, which gives us total plate appearances of 96. Don’t get me wrong – Corky was bad in 2008. But 2008 was a year in which we weren’t competing in the division. I can’t remember a “bad hitter” that had more squandered opportunities, especially in important situations, than Mr. Norton.