Audience participation time! Rate Braves’ offseason moves!
This was where we left it. Two of these guys play elsewhere now. (AJC photo by Curtis Compton)
Pitchers and catchers report tomorrow. Those words make some folks get all misty-eyed, but I have to confess they leave me unmoved. Probably because I hate watching teams practice in any sport. Give me real games!
But I digress.
The offseason is almost officially over. The Braves made some moves, as you know. (Say this for Frank Wren: He’s a movin’ man.) Here’s what I think of this club as currently configured, but I’d like a little audience participation, too. Tell me which transactions you liked, and which you didn’t. Unless you happened loved them all, which I guess would make you Frank Wren.
You’ll note that Johnny Damon’s name is not included below. Speculation is rampant that he’ll sign with either the Tigers or the White Sox, though speculation has been known to be wrong. He still might land here, I guess, but I’d be surprised. Though I’m often surprised.
And I didn’t include the Braves’ cutting of Ryan Church or Kelly Johnson because frankly I can’t imagine anyone disagreeing with those moves. But I am including everyone’s favorite pinch-hitter in our mix.
So here it is, our veritable Murderer’s Row of polling. You can vote once in each, and I encourage you to do so. And I thank you in advance.
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221 comments Add your comment
SCDAWG
February 18th, 2010
8:28 am
I ususlly don’t give Frank Wren much credit,but I do give him credit for building the overall depth and quality of the pitching staff.Time will tell how the other moves work out but pitching is 90% of the game and I do believe we have the best overall pitching staff in the NL.Wagner is the first true closer we have had since Smoltz and the rest of the bullpen should be much stronger,especially middle and long relief.LET THE GAMES BEGIN.
Dr. R.
February 18th, 2010
8:29 am
I think Wren’s hands are tied somewhat by ownership and the payroll. Many of the moves made — dumping Vazquez for cheap alternatives, signing Glaus, trading Soriano — were based on economics. Wagner was the only investment they made and it’s a short-term one. I just don’t think the Braves are going to spend money for a winner as they once did, and they’re going to have to muddle by as a mid-market team with a middle-of-the-pack payroll, kind of like Milwaukee, Cleveland and Baltimore. They aren’t going to be up there with the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers and Cubs unless they get a moneybags owner like Turner again, and that’s not going to happen. So we just have to deal with it and understand that Wren isn’t to blame.
meh
February 18th, 2010
8:30 am
I like the free agent signings but the trades not so much. It seems like they could’ve gotten more for what they traded. It seemed like trades were more about getting rid of people than improving the team.
F-105 Thunderchief
February 18th, 2010
8:31 am
You may have noticed, Mark, that a large majority disliked the Vazquez trade. Posts from the many “experts,” who read the AJC blogs, however, seem to have run the other way. Weird.
Starring Kam Fong as Chin Ho
February 18th, 2010
8:33 am
Retaining Terry Pendleton as hitting coach is the worst move this off season. Can anyone out there name ONE player that became a better hitter under his watch? Can’t claim Chipper or McCann, their dads are their coaches. He is the worst hitting coach in baseball
Let's Go Bravos!
February 18th, 2010
8:35 am
I swear that if Greg Norton was on the team this year, I would have not watched a single game. He was the worst player the Braves have had on their bench since the 80s. And yes that includes Corky Miller, Rafy Belliard, and some others!
Dr. R.
February 18th, 2010
8:36 am
And I just remembered why I need to stay away from Braves blogs when I read the comments on how Cox destroyed the team last season. Only a non-baseball person would say that. Other than relying too heavily on Greg Norton, which did NOT have that much impact, I don’t think Bobby did anything but keep his club in contention despite a limited roster. Come next year, the same football fans who blast Bobby now will be blasting whoever takes his place. Baseball is not a game of perfection but continued excellence over a period of time, and that’s what Bobby has given Atlanta. But those of you raised on children’s football are convinced that a game should never be lost and if so, it’s the fault of management. The one guy who says “when does college football start” says it all. Most of you aren’t real baseball people, you don’t understand the game, and your comments are those of casual fans who are just marking time until your beloved Bulldogs/Jackets/Vols/Tide get going again. So I’ll let you guys have the blog and I’ll find a place to congregate with real fans of the greatest American game.
F-105 Thunderchief
February 18th, 2010
8:37 am
When Liberty Media realizes their tax benefit from the purchase and then looks to sell, who would be the potential buyers? Was Mark Cuban blackballed by MLB? Does Blank have the money anymore?
Robert
February 18th, 2010
8:43 am
“Other than relying too heavily on Greg Norton, which did NOT have that much impact”
You saw no impact because Norton never produced. In reality that’s negative impact. Sending an .050 hitter up as your first choice pinch hitter in those last gasp chances probably alone cost us 6 games last year
Mark Biles
February 18th, 2010
8:46 am
I don’t any of the moves were “great” (with the exception of dumping Greg Norton). In fact, most of them were “so-so” moves, but this is the team we’ve got and we’ve got to get behind them. What people seem to forget is that at least some of the players we dumped will have poor seasons for other clubs. I can’t see Soriano having a good year two years in a row (has he ever?) Vasquez had a career year in 2009. Will he duplicate that in 2010? I doubt it. Gonzalez and LaRoche are the ones I regret getting away, but who knows? One or both of them could have bad years in 2010, also.
Thing is, we need to get behind this team and see what they can do.
Go Braves!
Hef
February 18th, 2010
8:46 am
As per offseason moves one thing is clear,Geritol sales just quadrupled in metro Atlanta.Was there an over 50 age requirement in all of Wrenn’s signings/trades?
nola braves fan
February 18th, 2010
8:47 am
any true fan of Mark’s work needs to vote the greg norton “non re-signing” the greatest epic fail of all time. i mean, what will MB write about now? I had more laughs at the Bradley laments after our boy Greg swung and a miss thrice over…
the real OLD GOLD
February 18th, 2010
8:55 am
Not re-signing Greg Norton, even two years later anyone with any baseball knowledge whatsoever would have done…. more than makes up for every foolish decision made by this regime to date.. Norton was the WORST batter in the majors. I truly believe that I, myself, could have batted a point or two above Norton without taking batting practice or warming up not having played baseball since 8th grade.
Hef
February 18th, 2010
8:58 am
Mark in two years you’ll be eligble to be put into the starting rotation along with Knucksie,Glavine,Smoltz,& Bedrock out of the pen. Maybe Bobby will be talked into stayin for another 20 years to manage these young /oid timers. Seriously though,could Wrenn not found anyone under 40 to sign?
Mad Mike
February 18th, 2010
9:00 am
frank wren is running this team in a sort of modified florida marlins way of running a team – grow the farm, trade the proven talent at its perceived most valuable point for as much of a return as we can get, and the modification: keep a handful of the homegrown fan fave superstars. give wren time – this isn’t college football. it’s gonna take longer than three seasons to enjoy the fruits of his labors. it may not happen this season, but we will be a force in the postseason again soon. then again, maybe it will happen this season. i like the majority of wren’s moves – painful as they may be at times. i mean, we’re not the yankees (nor do i want to be), and we won’t be spending a half billion dollars on our players’ salaries in any given season. so give the man time. it’s gonna happen. and stop falling in love with every free agent acquisition who exceeds expectations. those are the guys we don’t get to keep any more, and it’s better if you just enjoy the time we spend together and not get too attached. go braves.
Navigator
February 18th, 2010
9:08 am
I’m sorry, letting a very good pitcher get away to keep a has been and bringing in low and middle players are not to be applauded. Mark my words, that Vasquez situation will come back to bite them, especially since the guy they paid to stay can’t even stay of the injured list. Also that move had Bobby Cox written all over it.
Bill
February 18th, 2010
9:11 am
IF team…If a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his A@@ everytime he hops. You can bet the “ifs” turn into real problems before the seasons over.
Another if…If TP takes Bobby’s place as mgr… He!! yes fans will be on him. No to TP!
Don
February 18th, 2010
9:12 am
Why no ranking on the decision to keep Bobby Cox???
PMC
February 18th, 2010
9:15 am
How can I rate something that hasn’t happened yet? Am I thrilled? No. They aren’t the team to beat in the NL East. Are they set up well for the future? Yeah I think they are for the most part. Love the starters, so so on the relievers… very very skeptical about the lineup and thier ability to produce runs in bunches. Pretty much the same as the last several years.
Don
February 18th, 2010
9:15 am
The ranking of Norton is obviously correct. But COMPARED TO BOBBY COX, Greg Norton is GREAT, OUTSTANDING, A MODEL OF PERFORMANCE.
Poorbrave
February 18th, 2010
9:16 am
Don, you hadn’t heard, Bobby is the best mgr someone ( don’t call names) has ever seen.
Kenny J
February 18th, 2010
9:18 am
Not sure what a lot of you guys expect from Wren under the payroll restrictions he’s got. Any blogger who has ever been top executive of a large company trying to compete against the jumbos, speak up. You know that when the boss (Board) approves so much budget and no more, then you find a way to put your very best product out there for that price. The 2010 MLB payrolls aren’t out, but here’s 2009 and this year will parallel them: NY Mets – 135 million; Phillies – 113.0 Milliion; Braves – 96.7 million. If you don’t think Wren would put those extra bats on the roster for the additional 38 million the Mets dished out, or the 16 million more that the Phillies paid, think again. BTW, the Astros, Dodgers and Cubs all went higher than Wren was allowed to. Cubbies: 135MM. Houston spent 103.9 million. Frank coulda done something powerful with that extra 6.2, but he doesn’t have it.
He’s kept the highly rated prospects through all this (Shurholz gave the other 5 to Texas for a rent-a-Texiera fantasy). 5 of ESPNs top 100 prospects are Bravos, with no team in baseball having more. He’s got a very solid club with deep pitching, a top notch bench (baseball fans know this is no small matter). What’s missing is a bopper or two. That relies on luck, which I for one wish them well, not rail against like so many seem to think is helpful. The luck starts with Chipper, who’s a payroll consumer and 38, brittle and waning. The luck would be in a last great season, which every one of us is rooting for. The other is Glaus, And then comes luck in general. Pitching injuries, or a key player like McCann, Escobar, McLouth.Let’s keep our fingers crossed there. Unspoken is the upside of Shaefer, who we’ve forgotten could be so-o-o legit. If that happens, Wren’s got a lot of trade material to grab a right handed power hitter in mid-season if it looks like they’re on a pace to win 89 games and the move would inch that up to 93 and make for a strong post-season contender.
Nobody’s every move is perfect. But in a market that didn’t want Lowe, nor was willing to pay a slugger for Vazquez, what he’s done inch by inch gets a high grade, especially keeping his prospects so the team can grow the way the Red Sox and Phillies did. I’m a fan. And no, they’re not as strong as the teams with an additional 10 or 20 or 30 million to spend. But they’ll play really good baseball, and maybe the luck and a mid season trade will give us something extra to cheer about.
Lane Myers
February 18th, 2010
9:18 am
Bring back Chief Noc-A-Homa!
Poorbrave
February 18th, 2010
9:19 am
Bobby always has a Norton on the team. Who will it be this year?
PMC
February 18th, 2010
9:19 am
I feel MUCH better about the pinch hitting situation this year. MUCH MUCH better.
ITP Brave
February 18th, 2010
9:21 am
Any chance we can go ahead and comment on the Braves not calling up Heyward until June? I say Epic Fail, much like Hanson last season.
Poorbrave
February 18th, 2010
9:22 am
The Chief’s to old to dance and spit fire…maybe his son. Chief Noc-A- Single!
Asheville Dawg
February 18th, 2010
9:28 am
Now this is an ifing team if I ever saw one. Ifing the starting pitchers don’t get hurt we will be great. Ifing the old folks in the bullpen stay upright ,we’ll be okay.Ifing Chipper stays heathy, we’ll be okay Ifing the first base combo works, we’ll be okay. Ifing a rookie who never played above Class AA works out in the outfield we’ll be okay. Whole lot ifings, we are not dealing from strength are we. Maybe everything will come to out okay but I doubt it.
Matt
February 18th, 2010
9:29 am
On a scale of 1 (worst) to 10 (best) Frank Wren gets a -1,000,000,000. This team is NOT better than they were last year, especially on the offensive side. Pitching will have to carry this team because Larry Jones is gonna get injured again, the outfield stinks and asking Glaus to provide punch is just deluded.
Matt
February 18th, 2010
9:31 am
Kenny J- I believe that the small market Twins will have an equal or larger payroll than the Bravos this year. If they can up the payroll, new stadium or not, the Bravos should be able to do so as well. Attendance depends on winning and if you don’t spend to win, the fans are not going to come.
Bigstack O' Pancakes. It is an Irish name.
February 18th, 2010
9:32 am
Can we give Frank Wren a grade lower than an F-. I give this off season a Q.
raleighbravefan
February 18th, 2010
9:32 am
I am in the column of guys who believe this team has great potenetial, and that Wren made the best moves available to him with the conditions that exhisted. He has a firm budget, and any trades have to be worked with other teams who are trying to improve thier own teams, not the Braves.
The doom and gloom guys, including MB can only see a world where every thing that can go wrong will, and that everyone traded away will be an allstar. Bobby and Wren haters are coming out of the woodwork, based on the perception by some that every move and decision is wrong, and that because the Braves had Ted Turner money in the past, that they still do, or should, and Wren could have made moves with the Budget be damned.
Who will be right? Time will tell. EVERY move has the potential to work or fail. A lot will depend on injuries and players performances – AS IT IS WITH EVERY TEAM. Some teams can afford a greater margin of error, but some can’t. The Mets couldn’t overcome thier problems with a big budget. I DO believe we are in a position to succeed if things go well. Some teams (Pirates, K City, San Diego, etc., etc.) don’t have that hope.
Let’s play ball and see what happens. GO BRAVES!
collegeballfan
February 18th, 2010
9:33 am
One cannot isolate the moves by Wren as just baseball moves. Included in the equation is the mandate from the owner re salary levels. Cash flow determines a lot of business decisions. If you do not believe that, try running a business for a few years. So Wren has to work with that burden.
Having said that, I would give Wren a solid B. And if Vizcaino is as good as advertised, and I believe he is, then the Vazquez trade was a solid A move.
But overall a solid B.
Tim
February 18th, 2010
9:44 am
All of the moves are overshadowed by trading Vazquez for nothing + the latest over-rated Yankees prospect. If Jurrjens goes down with a shoulder or arm injury the Braves season is over before it even begins.
pittman
February 18th, 2010
9:44 am
compared to where the braves were last spring training you cant help but feel better about this team
Heyward>Francouer Mcclouth>schafer hudson and hanson> jo jo reyes and vazquez and glaus > kotchman with all of these upgrades this team should win 90-93 games which gets us the wild card
Anthony
February 18th, 2010
9:53 am
All the moves add up to a third place finish in the NL East. So, they are all great if that’s what the management is shooting for. Time for Bobby and Chippee to go bye-bye, clean house, take down the 1 for 15 banners and start with a new goal, build a team to win the World Series. Till then, it’s another summer (and fall) with the Braves and UGA playing for third place in the East division.
bvillebaron
February 18th, 2010
9:55 am
Navigator:
I assume that “has been” you were referring to is Tim Hudson. Do yourself a favor, do a little research and check out his career stats vs. Javy “Career Year” Vazquez and get back to me. Did you know that Hudson is a whopping ONE YEAR older than Vazquez?
As for Bradley, I have an idea, why don’t we like at least wait until the season starts or, better yet, the Allstar break, before we run these kind of polls. Nah, that would mean that what actually happens (i.e. facts) might get in the way of your preconceived opinions.
Don
February 18th, 2010
9:56 am
The Ranking on “KEEPING BOOBY COX”:
A Great Move
A So So Move
A Lousy Move
X The Worst Possible Move The Braves Could Have Made.
Don
February 18th, 2010
9:59 am
Robert, let’s see your ranking of “Keeping Bobby Cox”.
Let’s see some other posters rankings of “Keeping Bobby Cox”.
Rich Mckay
February 18th, 2010
10:01 am
Stop worrying about injuries to the rotation, plenty of depth there. Worry about injuries to position players. This lineup is contingent on everyone staying healthy and performing up to high expectations.
What happens when a bat goes down? What happens if Chipper hits like the second half last year or only plays 100 games? Same thing for Glaus? Or if Yunel, McCann, or Prado go down? Or Heyward isn’t quite ready?
This team could be really good, but its one or two injuries away from having no chance
Kenny J
February 18th, 2010
10:03 am
Matt, I agree with you on the Twins. Marlins, Rockies and Rays too. Great job by those franchises with limited budgets. It’s just that I’m not down on the Braves and what they’ve done as so many seem to be.
Dude
February 18th, 2010
10:04 am
Trading Vazquez was bad. Just because the pitching staff was relatively healthy last season, what made them think it would be healthy this season? Case in point.. JJ Hudson coming off of injury? They should have kept all the starters, and put KK in bullpen if there were no injuries, but guess what pitchers haven’t even reported and we already have an injury.
raleighbravefan
February 18th, 2010
10:08 am
What was the alternative to the Vazquez trade? We got a versitile solid outfielder, 2 good (one maybe great) prospectes, and freed up $$$. I prefer Hudson for 3 years at a reasonable rate to Vazquez, who either:
1- reverts back to his lifetime average performance after a career year in 2009 (it’s better to sell high)
2- Has a great year and then cost too much to resign. Then we get nothing in return for the future after 2010.
What were the alternatives? We couldn’t trade Lowe (or KK). We couldn’t get a great run producer you guys wanted because no one was going to trade that for a one year rental for a guy who had the greatest season of his life, and will likely not equal it this year. We couldn’t afford to carry 6 starters (really 7, as Medlin could easily be a #4/5 guy), and if we could, it would be at the expense of a shorter/weaker bench. I know you guys know better than Wren what tallent was available/offered for JV, but what would you have done? Don’t say “made a better trade”, because I don’t believe a better trade was available. If you say “don’t made the trade at all”, what would you do about puting a team together with the payroll restrictions. I would like to hear real, rational, REALISTIC arguments against the moves that were made, not what you wish could happen in a perfect Braves world.
AndyC
February 18th, 2010
10:09 am
Mark
Your question about Soriano is not worded properly. The trade of Soriano had to be made after they had already signed Wagner and that’s how I answered it. The better question would have been asking about the decision not to offer arbitration to Soriano.
Mark Bradley
February 18th, 2010
10:11 am
Duly noted, AndyC.
raleighbravefan
February 18th, 2010
10:14 am
Dude – How do you pay for keeping all the pitchers, and puting KK in bullpen? He would be the highest paid middle reliever in th history of baseball on a team that has to count every penny. Let’s at least try to be realistic. As I’ve said before, Ted Turner has left the building, but some of you haven’t noticed yet.
Don
February 18th, 2010
10:15 am
Some questions about things THAT WE KNOW ARE GOING TO HAPPEN this year, AS ALWAYS:
(1) What position player (who isn’t producting) will Bobby Cox play on and on and on when he has a far better option on the bench?
(2) What relief pitcher who can’t get anyone out will Bobby Cox keep on using game after game after game?
(3) Which relief pitcher or pitchers will Bobby Cox overuse and overuse to the point that they are not effective by the last 1/3 of the season?
(4) How many times (time after time after time after time) will Bobby Cox fail to adjust his batting order based on who is hot and who is cold?
(5) How many times (time after time after time after time) will Bobby Cox fail to adjust his batting order based on certain hitters being great or terrible agaisnt certain opposing pitchers that we face?
(6) How many times will Bobby Cox fail to move a star player out of his favorite spot in the batting order when he is in a prolonged terrible slump?
(7) Will Bobby Cox again fail to emphasize/teach/demand the most important thing in generating offense – that his hitters be selective, work the count, make the opposing pitcher thow some pitches – in a single game out of the 162 game sechedule?
(8) Will Bobby Cox again just basically make out the lineup and sit ot the bench and be a cheerleader – and do little or nothing relating to managing and run production?
jeffrey d
February 18th, 2010
10:17 am
I see I’m in the big minority of the Vazquez trade. I bet that’ll change by October
McCann Fan
February 18th, 2010
10:19 am
We won’t know about the Javy Vasquez move until we see how he performs this year and how the guys we got for him perform down the line. Really, it may turn out to be a great move.
I really wanted us to re-sign LaRoche, but if we get 2008 Troy Glaus for $2million we made the deal of the year (.270, 27, 99).
I think the bullpen moves will wind up being good ones, simply for the $$$ we would have had to give to two guys who are very good, but unpredictable.
Greg Norton should have been cut halfway through 2009, so not signing him back was a given. That guy was horrid last year and Bobby kept putting him in there!
Mark Bradley
February 18th, 2010
10:19 am
An observation: None of the moves have been adjudged as “great” — except the Greg Norton one.