Bradley’s Buzz: Did the Verducci Effect claim Jair Jurrjens?
Jair Jurrjens delivers, thereby putting himself at risk. (AJC photo by Curtis Compton)
Was it just happenstance that Dave O’Brien’s report of Jair Jurrjens’ impending MRI coincided, more or less, with Tom Verducci’s annual look at young pitchers at risk? Because, as the SI.com writer notes, Jurrjens was one of those who appeared to have defied the so-called Verducci Effect.
Ten months ago Verducci identified Jurrjens as one of 10 pitchers under 25 who’d increased his workload by more than 30 innings. You can question the methodology — Eric Seidman of FanGraphs did here — but there’s enough data to make the V-Effect worth noting. Writes Verducci:
“In the previous four years, I have identified 34 at-risk pitchers. Only four of them made it through that year without injury and with a lower ERA: [Ubaldo] Jimenez and three studs who did it last year — Tim Lincecum, Clayton Kershaw and Jair Jurrjens. (Jurrjens may not have escaped the effect after all. He reported to camp this week with a sore shoulder and will undergo an MRI to determine the extent of the problem.)”
It could be that the MRI comes up clean. (Famous — and perhaps apocryphal — baseball headline: “X-rays of [Dizzy] Dean’s head show nothing.”) But it’s also worth noting that Tommy Hanson, whom Verducci didn’t earmark this spring, worked 194 innings (counting 66 at Gwinnett) in 2009 after logging 138 in the minors in 2008. Hanson is 23.
I say again: Handling a good young pitcher is the toughest trick in baseball. If he’s really good and your team has a chance to win something, how do you not deploy him? At the same time, the six most frightening words in the sport should be these:
Chicago Cubs. Kerry Wood. Mark Prior.
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124 comments Add your comment
shadetree
February 16th, 2010
2:12 pm
first by golly
CL33
February 16th, 2010
2:12 pm
We should have waited to trade Javier V. till we needed to.
C. John
February 16th, 2010
2:14 pm
not first
Asheville Dawg
February 16th, 2010
2:15 pm
4th
shadetree
February 16th, 2010
2:15 pm
That’s why it was okay to have 6 starters. That would allow you spell a starter every now and then. We can still do that with Medlin but it would have been alot better with Javier Vasquez. Come july you could rest your starter every 4th start and keep them fresh. The only ones you could really send out there every start are Lowe and Huddy. They pitch better tired anyway. Oh lordy, Cox will burn’em out.
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
2:17 pm
Shadetree shades CL33, as it were, for first. Kudos.
Rodney Derrick
February 16th, 2010
2:20 pm
I hope JJ is ok; if not, I would like to see Braves give Kris Medlen a shot first
Reid in EAV
February 16th, 2010
2:21 pm
A quibble, but rather than a headline, that was actually a quote from Ol’ Diz’s own Biden-esque mouth (or, if you prefer, “W-esque mouth”): “They X-rayed my head and found nothing.”
SimpleDawg
February 16th, 2010
2:21 pm
The Vasquez trade was bad when Frankie made it, and it’s going to get worse every day from now on……
Asheville Dawg
February 16th, 2010
2:22 pm
Of course, the Braves traded their “extra starting pitcher” for a fourth outfielder. How many times have the Braves made it through the season without an injury to a starting pitcher? My guess, not since Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz days. You know, so last century…………….
26.2
February 16th, 2010
2:22 pm
CL33 is exact. We’ll regret not having Javier this year.
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
2:22 pm
You may be right, Reid. I’ll add the word “apocryphal” to the post.
Del
February 16th, 2010
2:27 pm
Whoop-de-do!! 2nd,3rd,4th??
Reid in EAV
February 16th, 2010
2:28 pm
Actually, looks like we both may be right… or at least, there’s enough mythology to back up both your version and mine. I was using this as my source (fourth from bottom in the quotes) but further down there’s the newspaper hed as well:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/quotes/quodean.shtml
And if you’ve got five minutes, that’s the best collection of baseball quotes shy of Yogi Berra. Funny stuff.
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
2:29 pm
Actually 13th, Del. But you’re in the Sweet 16.
Reid in EAV
February 16th, 2010
2:33 pm
Oh brother, I’m killing a productive afternoon here, but hey, NY Times to the rescue:
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/04/05/books/baseball-they-x-rayed-my-head-and-found-nothing.html?pagewanted=1
So apparently that’s what Diz told reporters after getting beaned in a 1934 World Series game, so it’s probably both a quote and a hed too.
And with that, in Diz’s words, I’ve slud into home and will end this tangent.
Herschel Talker
February 16th, 2010
2:34 pm
FIRE BOOBY COX! WE COULD HAVE JAIR JURRGENS TIMES FIVE AND IT WOULDN’T MATTER. COX WILL MANAGE TO SCREW IT UP. YOU CAN BOOK IT.
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
2:35 pm
I’m old enough to have heard Dizzy sing “Wabash Cannonball” on the Game of the Week, Reid. With Pee Wee Reese as his sidekick.
Wren Hater
February 16th, 2010
2:37 pm
I hear John Smoltz is still available.
Maybe the Yankees will let us have a “do-over” on that trade.
It was not lost on this Braves season ticket holder that Wren pulled the trigger on the Vazquez on the very first business day AFTER season ticket renewal payments were do.
If Frank Wren’s mother wasn’t willing to END HIM with a coat hanger all those years ago, Cal Ripken should have used that buffoon’s head for T-Ball practice.
CGB
February 16th, 2010
2:37 pm
Two other words you left out at the end: Dusty Baker! If I were a stud pitcher, I’d be scared to death to EVER pitch under him (see Edinson Volquez, too).
Paul Hewitt's Wife
February 16th, 2010
2:38 pm
make sure you sign the contract Jurrjens, its the only thing saving my hubby
Wren Hater
February 16th, 2010
2:39 pm
Oops!
CORRECTION:
“It was not lost on this Braves season ticket holder that Wren pulled the trigger on the Vazquez TRADE on the very first business day AFTER season ticket renewal payments were DUE.”
See, unlike Frank “Wrong Again” Wren, some of us can admit when we make very, very, very stupid mistakes.
stamper
February 16th, 2010
2:39 pm
Which Brave has his named misspelled the most?
A: Jurrjens. “Jurrgens”
-or-
B: Schafer. “Schaefer”
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
2:41 pm
I can only speak for myself, stamper. I’ve missed on “Jurrjens” a dozen times. I don’t think I’ve missed on “Schafer.”
Shane
February 16th, 2010
2:43 pm
Jair will be fine. Sounds like they are just taking precautions. Heck Wren stole JJ anyway in the Renteria trade. Karma maybe?
Reid in EAV
February 16th, 2010
2:44 pm
Great story. Remember when baseball announcers were allowed to be colorful, larger-than-life characters? Sigh.
Benjamin
February 16th, 2010
2:45 pm
Bradley, you popped up in my SPORTS ILLUSTRATED collection yesterday, of all places. I was at home in the mountains, reading through some vintage old SIs, when I came across one from the early 1990s.
Elmore Spencer ring a bell?
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
2:45 pm
Announcers were allowed to be characters because they all started on radio and were storytellers. That’s not the case today. Sometimes I think I’m the only one who likes listening to games more than watching them. (Thank goodness for Sirius XM.)
ITP Brave
February 16th, 2010
2:46 pm
There’s a huge difference between letting young pitchers pitch and the sheer injustice that Dusty Baker did to Wood and Prior.
Here’s hoping JJ’s MRI is negative. It will be a long, long season before it starts if he’s not able to pitch.
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
2:46 pm
Oh, yes, Benjamin. One of my most memorable interviews ever.
chasjons
February 16th, 2010
2:47 pm
Interesting observation, but is 215 innings really that many relative to what other pitchers are throwing? Greg Maddux in his prime threw 268 innings and didn’t have injury problems. Granted Maddux had different mechanics than Jurrjens. According to baseball reference.com Jair increased his workload slightly less than 30 innings. The bump from 188 to 215 doesn’t seem to be significant but who knows. What is the average number of innings a starter throws these days anyway?
Benjamin
February 16th, 2010
2:48 pm
I saw your quotes on him in there. He certainly was an interesting fellow.
I have to admit, I never thought I’d land on an SI reference to the one, the only, Mark Bradley. It was pretty cool…
Skeezix
February 16th, 2010
2:50 pm
J.J.’s sore shoulder just makes the Vasquez trade look dumber than it did to begin with.
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
2:51 pm
If you read Verducci’s latest story, ITP Brave, you’ll note his mention of Homer Bailey. On June 8, 2007, He was allowed to throw 114 pitches in his major-league debut against Cleveland just so he could finish five innings and get a victory. He has won 11 games since.
Tiger's Wood
February 16th, 2010
2:51 pm
greatly increasing your workload in a short period of time can definitely lead to muscle soreness
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
2:52 pm
I’ve made SI a few times, Benjamin. (Yes, I keep track of such things.)
Terrance Moore
February 16th, 2010
2:52 pm
I HATE Y’ALL!!
Shane
February 16th, 2010
2:53 pm
Granted Maddux had different mechanics than Jurrjens.
JJ is not a max effort kind of guy either. A guy like Mike Gonzalez is and that kind of pitcher will always have arm problems. Im much more concerned with Hanson and his unusual arm action causing problems than JJ.
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
2:55 pm
Shane, you’re right about Jurrjens. He has a nice delivery. I worry a bit about Hanson’s, however.
Wren Hater
February 16th, 2010
2:56 pm
Mr. Bradley.
MLB on XM is THE BEST! With hearing Vin Scully calling Dodgers games to Bob Uecker narrating the Brewers contest, nothing beats turning off the tube for an evening and allowing those gentlemen to “paint the picture of the ballpark” in your mind.
My XM subscription is worth every penny just for the baseball alone. However, with the Braves games now on the weak, unlistenable-after-dark 680 The Fan locally, I will need XM just to be able to hear the Braves home broadcasts while stuck on the downtown connnector on my way to the games.
Back on the topic of this blog’s title, I wish a sinkhole would CLAIM Frank Wren.
JabboRockefeller
February 16th, 2010
2:57 pm
Even if JJ is fine, trading JV was a HUGE blunder.
Shane
February 16th, 2010
2:58 pm
What is a topic of a blog title?
alan
February 16th, 2010
3:00 pm
Sign Smoltz.
Shane
February 16th, 2010
3:01 pm
Even if JJ is fine, trading JV was a HUGE blunder.
Time will tell. If Arodys Vizcaino, an uber prospect, turns into a great pitcher then advantage Atlanta.
oldfart
February 16th, 2010
3:04 pm
I don’t think there is a manager in the game that has been more kind to his starting pitching than Bobby Cox. Keeps them on pitch counts early in the season, has always used the 5 man rotation, etc. Now if he had used a four man rotation when he only had four true big league starters or something of that nature you guys could talk but that hasn’t been the case here. Arm troubles are just part of pitching unless you are a knuckleballer, guaranteed if you are a screwballer. Hampton and Hudson arrived as damaged goods, blame that on the GM. Let the man go out with the dignity he deserves.
JabboRockefeller
February 16th, 2010
3:06 pm
Couldn’t we trade Wren for an “idiot to be named later?” As long as the other guy is a certified idiot, we could do no worse than break-even. And, chances are, the dude would be MUCH less an idiot than Wren…
Larry
February 16th, 2010
3:09 pm
Jurrjens is really something. If we had given the kid some run support, he could have won 20 games last year.Most underrated pitcher in the game. I hope he’s ok.
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
3:11 pm
Cox protects the starters. He overtaxes his relievers.
RetiredSoldier
February 16th, 2010
3:11 pm
Those were the days Mark, Dizzy and PeeWee. It didn’t get any better.
ITP Brave
February 16th, 2010
3:12 pm
Mark, I read Verducci’s article last year and vividly remembered it while watching Cole Hamels crash and burn at the end of the season. (If memory serves, he was at the top of Verducci’s warning list.)
Like I said before, though, there is a difference between letting a young pitcher pitch and what Dusty Baker did. In 2003, Mark Prior averaged about 110 pitches per start, until September, when he averaged almost 125 pitches per start. This continued throughout the playoffs, when he regularly hit 120 pitches every start.
Prior was THE “can’t miss” pitching prospect and was unbelievable in 2003. But, the injuries began after that season, and he is now an afterthought for pitching prospects. It goes to show that there is a difference between pitching a young pitcher and killing their career.
Daniel
February 16th, 2010
3:15 pm
He didn’t include Hanson because he didn’t log 30 more innings in 2009. If you look at Verducci’s method he counts all professional innings (including Arizona Fall League). Hanson pitched 28.2 innings in the AFL. That’s 166.2 professional innings in 2008 and 194 in 2009.
Reading is FUNdamental!
Conyers Braves Fan
February 16th, 2010
3:18 pm
Mark: Before we get too concerned, should we not wait until the results of the MRI are made available?
Seems that we may be talking about a non event at this point.
Larry
February 16th, 2010
3:19 pm
I dont mind Cox overtaxing relievers. That’s what they are for. If you dont want to pitch in relief or you just want to whine about how many innings you are being worked, go apply at taco bell.
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
3:20 pm
We may indeed, Conyers. But if we don’t overreact, who will?
Matt
February 16th, 2010
3:21 pm
How in the world do the Braves trade Vazquez and NOT KNOW about this problem with Jurrjens before now?? Mind boggling ineptness appears to be the new norm with Braves front office.
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
3:22 pm
Shoulders are odd, Matt. Jamal Crawford sat out the last game before the break because he slept on his and woke up hurting.
Larry
February 16th, 2010
3:25 pm
I fear that this may be the theme of our whole season. When you rely so heavily on your starting rotation, it’s easy for one guy to get hurt and then the wheels start to come off. And pitchers get hurt. That is simply the way of things. Even if JJ is ok, keeping starters healthy is going to be an issue all season.
The solution, of course, is to bring back Dan Kolb and have him start every game.
Dan Kolb's Mom
February 16th, 2010
3:26 pm
I like where your heads at, Larry
oldfart
February 16th, 2010
3:26 pm
How ’bout this article to your right>>>>>
“Pitcher injures shoulder shooting TV ad”
In Baltimore, but I’m sure that a few in here can manage to blame it on Bobby Cox.
Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera
February 16th, 2010
3:31 pm
Mark —
The 2010 BCS National Championship DVD is out today. Can you BELIEVE that freaking SHOVEL PASS call Mack Brown made against Alabama?
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
3:32 pm
Please … do not remind me.
Hillbilly Deluxe
February 16th, 2010
3:32 pm
The other night on MLB Network, Mitch Williams gave a long, in depth break down of Tim Lincecum’s throwing motion and why he believes Lincecum will be very lucky if he doesn’t develop arm problems in the future. It was quite interesting.
athdogbravefalcon
February 16th, 2010
3:37 pm
I said it here in October, November and every month since, we should/should’ve waited until spring training was well underway to trade Javy. That way we see who’s hurt and what other teams’ have injuries. Of course, at 50, I eat wrong and my shoulder hurts for a week. And my fastball, when throwing with my teenage son, consistently hits the high fourties, and touches fifty sometimes.
Daniel
February 16th, 2010
3:39 pm
But even with your incorrect calculations of Hanson’s innings, he still go really close to the 30 inning line. Does that make him less of an injury risk than if he hit the 30 inning line?
Do you think managers (outside of Dusty Baker) try to avoid that line just to avoid having their young pitchers have to answer a bunch of questions about it?
Wren = #1 Contender for DUMBEST Atlanta Sports Entity
February 16th, 2010
3:40 pm
In the dark annals of Atlanta Sports History could Frank Wren possibly be the only ATL Sports Icon dumber than the millionaire QB who was admittedly too stupid and lazy to figure out the playbook and who lost all his money and went to prison for running a felonious, interstate gambling operation centered around killing and torturing animals?
Wilson
February 16th, 2010
3:41 pm
The new braves theme song is up…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGakNOdoJcY
Reality Check
February 16th, 2010
3:44 pm
Mark, I said it last week and it repeats saying. The Braves penched pennies and traded their best pitcher and top 3 in NL for minor league/utility player combo and signed nothing of value to take its place. We now have two major question marks, can Tim Hudson finish the season and we will worry about JJ every time we see him grimace, etc. In addition the Braves have downgraded in several positions in the order. What do you think?
Braves Fan
February 16th, 2010
3:47 pm
If medlen does need to start he will be ready. Heard him in this interview last week. http://www.bravesfancast.com (about 10 mins into the show)
collegeballfan
February 16th, 2010
3:55 pm
“the Verducci Effect”. Sounds like the title of a new Robert Lumlum novel. With that title I bet its a helluva read. Anybody bid on the movie rights yet?
Hillbilly Deluxe
February 16th, 2010
3:58 pm
Looks like my comment never went through. You’d think by now I would have learned to copy everything before I send it, knowing that the odds are great there’ll be a problem.
Navigator
February 16th, 2010
4:04 pm
This situation is exactly why the Braves were so lucky in the 1990’s, early 2000’s when their pitchers held up so well. Only Steve Avery, who may have had the most throwing talent of the group, was lost to career ending injury.
PMC
February 16th, 2010
4:07 pm
Isn’t today the day to overreact about the other JJ Joe Johnson? They are going to have to trade the guy before Thursday or get NOTHING for him.
JJ is going to be fine. They are simply taking an MRI to have a look at his shoulder that’s all.
PMC
February 16th, 2010
4:08 pm
Jurrjens isn’t used in the Bullpen. His arm has been babied. He has to pitch what maybe 100 pitches every 5 days?
NOTSO FAST
February 16th, 2010
4:09 pm
Did somebody say we had too many starters? You never have enough.
Marty
February 16th, 2010
4:12 pm
If I remember correctly I believe Keith Law stated in a chat some months back that the Braves should consider trading JJ because his value would be extremely high and garnered the greatest return and he expected there to some form of injury due to his workload. This would have been very unpopular but may prove to have been the right way to go.
chem
February 16th, 2010
4:20 pm
Hanson leads his delivery with his elbow and generates a lot of velocity and movement on his pitches when he snaps his forearm down. That type of motion puts a lot of strain on the rotator cuff and elbow tendons. He’ll undoubtedly have shoulder/ elbow problems sometime in the next couple years.
Sonny Clusters
February 16th, 2010
4:21 pm
Clusters don’t throw hard until the arm is warmed up. Then, we throw with good mechanics so we don’t strain anything. We was reading where Tony Cloninger pitched on opening day in the rain and went 13 innings and his arm turned into Chef Boyardee. It must have something to do with the Atlanta Braves. Steve Avery’s arm turned into Chef Boyardee, too.
We was reading that Chipper weighs 230 pounds and was thinking that is 120 quarter pounders with cheese too much.
Fed Up With Wren (Again)
February 16th, 2010
4:21 pm
Collegeballfan, Dusty Baker is already cast as the lead villain in that movie. Mark Prior and Kerry Wood get offed in the first two scenes.
Hope JJ will be OK. I think this just further demonstrates that this season is hugely dependent on no breakdowns at any position and the huge gambles Wren has taken with his moves this offseason.
Braves73
February 16th, 2010
4:24 pm
MB, any word on Johnny Damon? Is he signing with Detroit?
bvillebaron
February 16th, 2010
4:28 pm
Let’s wait for the results of the MRI before we start jumping to conclusions here. I listened to Leo Mazzone over the weekend and he said that the Verducci-effect is a bunch of baloney. Then again, what the heck does he know? Glavine and Maddux never got hurt under his watch as I recall. Besides, as Bradley points out, if Verducci claims 30 more innings is the “cut off” point, why isn’t Hanson on the list after pitching 66 more innings in 2009 over 2008?
Carroll
February 16th, 2010
4:34 pm
everyone seriously needs to relax with the vazquez issue. I admit that at first i was floored when I heard of the trade, and only time will tell if the youngsters actually pan out. But this trade was the definition of “buy low, sell high.” It’s the only way that a mid-market team like Atlanta, Florida, etc etc can compete.
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
4:43 pm
There’s no word on Damon, Braves73.
Juan
February 16th, 2010
4:49 pm
NOTSO FAST… Did somebody say we had too many starters? You never have enough.
That why i said back in Nov, I said that we can use KK as a long reliever and use him occasional at starter position ,so we can rest Lowe & Vazquez every other outting late in Aug and they can be resting in the end of the season.
F-105 Thunderchief
February 16th, 2010
4:55 pm
How much would that be in Dairy Queen brazier burgers, Sonny?
Mark Bradley
February 16th, 2010
5:00 pm
Chipper’s notion of offseason training is a bit different than some players’, Sonny. He maintains he does better when he trains less.
Sonny Clusters
February 16th, 2010
5:02 pm
F-105, Chipper was working out with Cheeseburgers. The DQ Bacon Cheese Grillburger is also 1/4 pound. So, Chipper would be 120 DQBCGb’s overweight. Old and slow is going to be complicated by fat and ugly. Those hammies are going to be tightening up and popping like crazy.
Sonny Clusters
February 16th, 2010
5:06 pm
We was certain Chipper would report in the best possible shape after gassing out last season. Had he been productive the club may have made the playoffs. With bad thumbs already an issue we was wondering if he has done anything to protect those famous toes? When we was playing ball we missed some games but that was only because we was being honored in the classroom at the very same time. We was never out with a bad toe or a bad thumb or a bad oblique or a bad hamstring or a bad (fill in the arthur).
eoniii
February 16th, 2010
5:10 pm
This is a reminder that pitch counts are a very good idea for young startes – we have to protect the franchise in Jurrgens and Hanson.
Wonder if Mulholland is still available?
F-105 Thunderchief
February 16th, 2010
5:11 pm
Jurrjens has already been performing like another hard-throwing right-hander we got in a trade with Detroit. Let’s hope he has that guy’s ability to bounce back from injury, too.
Herschel Talker
February 16th, 2010
5:16 pm
MB:
Please oblige me and put up a column on why we should fire Booby Cox. Thank you.
HT
Chop Chop
February 16th, 2010
5:26 pm
Jair ain’t Smoltz. Let’s just hope he doesn’t get a bad case of the Hamels this season. This team cannot afford that kind of hit.
oldfart
February 16th, 2010
5:27 pm
Only Liberty Media has made it clear that you can have too many starters. I wish the suits would take it to heart that it takes money to make money.
Joey M
February 16th, 2010
6:02 pm
Obviously best case is Jurrjens is fine and all he is felling is shoulder stiffness from a muscle spasm. But remember we do have Kris Medlen to come in and emergency start. He is a capable pitcher. We are also giving an opportunity for a roster spot to Mike Minor. Long odds he starts with the Big Club. Probably goes to AA ball to start. He is a viable option by mid season. None of our options are as good as Jair. He is the 3rd best under 25 pitcher in MLB behind Lincecum and Hanson. (Yes I said Hanson. Did you see the guy? Beast!)
todd grantham
February 16th, 2010
6:07 pm
Afraid i’m old enough to remember Jack Brickhouse and Lou Boudreau doing Cubs games on the old WGN.
todd grantham
February 16th, 2010
6:08 pm
yes, and Ole Diz was great. Wabash was to him what Turn Out the Lights was to Dandy Don. Precious memories.
tim
February 16th, 2010
7:14 pm
Mark I wonder about you sometimes. Do you really believe this blather you write?
Cracker Jacket
February 16th, 2010
7:26 pm
Can never have enouth starting pitchers! Braves blew it!
Ross
February 16th, 2010
8:15 pm
I’ve always worried that Jurrjens, as an “arm” pitcher with no help from his body, would run into shoulder issues – but not this soon
Crossing my fingers.
BravesFanLostInOhio
February 16th, 2010
8:15 pm
Holy crap, can we not wait until the MRI results before starting this sort of wild speculation?
John
February 16th, 2010
8:42 pm
Even before this, the Vazquez trade made zero sense to me. Why trade him for an outfielder the teams intends to platoon with someone else. I would rather have Vazquez for one more season than a part time outfielder who may stay with us longer.
fieldofdreams
February 16th, 2010
9:27 pm
Please, Lord Jesus, may this young man’s arm be ok. And may all AJC readers come to a saving knowledge of your amazing grace.
jake
February 16th, 2010
10:14 pm
If it hadn’t been Jurrjens’ shoulder it would have been someone else. A starting rotation doesn’t go through a season without injuries. That’s why keeping Vazquez was a necessity not a luxury — free agent status notwithstanding — unless Wren got something more than a reliever, a prospect at least two years away and a highly dispensable outfielder.
As for Chipper’s off-season training “regimen,” we’ve seen the past few years how effect that is.
Robert
February 16th, 2010
10:21 pm
More likely it was the Bobby Cox effect. Misuse of a pitcher resulting in injury.
Robert
February 16th, 2010
10:23 pm
“Chipper’s notion of offseason training is a bit different than some players’, Sonny. He maintains he does better when he trains less”
If we pauid Chipper to think, he’d be earning minimum wage. This idea of doing better by training less is no doubt a Cox idiocy that Chipper has bought in to.
Dont worry about staying in shape son. And dont worry about the fundamentals. Just make sure you dont wear sunglasses on your ballcap while shagging flies during batting practice
swhite
February 16th, 2010
11:01 pm
105th!
Scottbravesfan
February 16th, 2010
11:05 pm
He’s going to be fine. Just give the guy some time off. He’s been pitching his butt off down in Curacao he just needs to take a couple of weeks off.
Robert
February 17th, 2010
2:38 am
The three words no pitcher ever wants to hear
“Your manager’s Cox”
N8
February 17th, 2010
3:08 am
“Even before this, the Vazquez trade made zero sense to me. Why trade him for an outfielder the teams intends to platoon with someone else.” John
For the umteenth time, Melky was NOT the centerpiece of that trade. Vizcaino was. And if JJJ and Hanson are going to be injury risks, then Vizcaino was a very wise investment. Especially with the stable of young, promising pitchers on the way.
Can never have enough young starting pitching. That being said… yeah. It might be nice to still have Javier at this point.
But as I’ve stated on DOB’s blog a few times. This season revolves way more around Chipper and Glaus being healthy and productive, along with Heyward contributing.
If those three hit like they are capable of, this team can survice Jurrjens going down. If those three do NOT hit, even Jurrjens wasn’t going to save this season.
bobby last year thank god
February 17th, 2010
7:23 am
Bye Bye Cox and remember u blew u chance be team of 90’s and who did be why yes the Yankees..and toronto n minnesota thanks u pardes n marlins for lettin them win 2 W.S. and of course M.Bradley for sayin umpire help the fish. why he not look in dugout see who did it wore a braves hat n uniform pick nose…..and say that a boy chipper u can strike out please!
Mike wren
February 17th, 2010
7:33 am
Hi folks i love to screw u fans up get u season tickets in then trade…..enjoy cox last year cause he comin back in 2011…….so wait till 2012 now,,, this just in folks chipper strain his mouth on a BK whopper today be out for six weeks
F-105 Thunderchief
February 17th, 2010
7:55 am
Well, at least after Cox retires, we don’t have top read the real jackass rail against him all the time. When Bobby’s gone, Robert’s gone. God, please let it be so.
Barnacle Bill Bavasi
February 17th, 2010
7:58 am
9 out of 10 Vizcaino types never pan out.
Ex-Braves Fan
February 17th, 2010
9:34 am
JJ’s final 2010 line: 2 Wins, 4 Losses, 6.57 ERA, 3 DL visits, major shoulder reconstruction surgery by September 15th, out till at least 2012 spring training, then a below .500 pitcher after that. So, how is that working out for the JV trade now Mr. Braves GM???
Don
February 17th, 2010
9:54 am
Surprise, Surprise. One of our starters is probably injured. Many of us have been saying over and over since the trading of Vazquez was even mentioned as a possibility — that it is almost certain that at least one of our projected starters will be injured or be ineffective. The name of the game is Pitching – how could we even consider trading Vazquez (one of the best in the league). This is especially bad when Bobby Cox is your manager – With Cox managing, the only chance you have of being competitive and getting into Post Season is to have pitching so far superior to the other teams that it overcomes his management procedures and lack thereof and enables you to win over the long 162 game regular season schedule in spite of him. It is no accident that he was able to convert only 1 of 14 Post Season opportunities into a WS win – when the pitching could not compensate for his management in the short series setting.
Don
February 17th, 2010
10:14 am
Robert, you are right – Bobby Cox effects almost everything about the team in an adverse way.
In addition: Instead of thinking like some (perhaps most) of you that we are going to have a team that can be competitive, I had a nightmare and thought I saw a team that had only 2 (perhaps 3) proven major league quality postion players – SS, Catcher and perhaps 2nd base (although this has not been proven over a full season. I thought that I saw a team that does not have a single proven major league quality outfielder, has a 3rd baseman coming off injury and in decline trying to play 1st base, and has a part time, poor defensive 3rd baseman whose hitting has now declined. And even though the Pitching could and should be good, Bobby Cox will still be managing it (mismanaging it) and will be misusing the Bullpen as usual. And of course – Bobby Cox will still be mamaging the offense – with is lack of understanding and implementation of even the most simple basic and fundamental procedures for generating offense – to say nothing of his continuous blunders in tactics and in most aspects of the game.
Douglas O
February 17th, 2010
10:44 am
Will someone please explain why for the first 100 years or so of MLB most starting pitchers were expected to complete most games? They pitched on average much more innings than in the last 2 or 3 decades. What has changed?
ProScout
February 17th, 2010
11:18 am
It’s sports, injuries happen. In the old days pitchers were winning 30 games a year and pitching on 3 and 4 days rest, logging over 300 innings. You can blame it on conditioning (not enough, or at least the right kind), you can blame it on the fact that there are millions invested in these guys. Therefore their workloads are babied and then when they are asked to go beyond what they are used to they get hurt.
Pitchers arms are babied as early as middle school, throughout high school and college for fear of ruining an arm and a possible law suit. It continues throught their minor league careers and they aren’t ready to handle consistent 200 + inning years. A “quality start” if 5 innings of 3 runs or less!!!! THAT’S A QUALITY START FOR THE MONEY I’M PAYING YOU?!?!?!?
ProScout
February 17th, 2010
11:22 am
90-105 pitches is usually the cut off for a high school pitcher. Why am I not to expect a multi million dollar professional pitcher not to exceed this limit???? Why is he being held to the standard of a high schooler??
ProScout
February 17th, 2010
11:23 am
Douglas- multimillion dollar contracts (protecting those investments) and lazy multimillion dollar athletes.
raleighbravefan
February 17th, 2010
11:32 am
Even the Yankees don’t carry 6 starters. We have some pretty good options for 4/5 if needed, beginning with Medlin. Vazques had a great CAREER YEAR last year, but he is not the second coming. He is a very good, reasonably dependable inning eater who has never had 2 really good years in a row. How would you pay for him with the current budget and payroll? (they couldn’t trade Lowe, who probably will have a very good year, by the way).
Oh, and JJ is going to be alright!!!!!
Give them a chance
February 17th, 2010
11:39 am
JJ is fine, nothing in the x-rays but inflamation and he will pitch in couple weeks. Vazquez had a career last year and braves fans appreciate that but you have to look at the whole picture.
Vazquez will not follow that up again this year
Chances of Lowe having a career off again are slim and he has been working on his mechanic, it was a problem
Hanson is a great young pitcher to be a number 2 this year and a number 1 in the future.
KK by the end of year was indeed improved and getting quite used to american mounds and the smaller ball. Look for him to be a very good number 5 pitcher.
Hudson is repaired and Tommy John extends arms. Just look at at some of the pitchers who had the procedure and what they have done. If they are good and can pitch then they usually bounce right back. Hudson is pitch smart and he will be fine.
I think we have a great rotation and I look forward to seeing them play this year unlike a lot of fans who dont seem to like the trades. Vazquez though will not be a top pitcher this year. He will be in the middle of pitching this year. Mark my words.
raleighbravefan
February 17th, 2010
11:48 am
I am always amazed how you armchair geniuses can know so much more than Bobby Cox, who has a lifetime of knowledge and experience and access to the entire Braves braintrust (including JS). You also know more than all the players and managers and hall-of-famers who consider him one of the greatest ever. You remind me of a punk teenager who thinks he knows more than his parents and all other grown-ups.
By the way, one reason the Braves have only one WS is that thier great pitching staff, with the exception of Smoltz, was not great during many (if not most) deciding post-season games. Of course, that’s Bobby’s fault too!
g$
February 17th, 2010
1:34 pm
starting pitcher-2 million plus per year
standard MRI scan-100.00 per scan
airplane ticket back to the ATL-400.00+..more if it’s first class
passing the Bill to ATL ticket(game) holders-PRICLESS
My point being…wtf?..flying all the way back home just to get a simple MRI..when you could have done the same procedure just around the corner somewhere in Fl..and gotten the same results
dunwoodybrave
February 17th, 2010
7:52 pm
What I don’t understand is why at the end of the past two seasons — when the Braves were out of it the final couple of weeks — Cox still ran JJ out there for every one of his scheduled starts. None of the games mattered — yet we piled another 15 to 20 on JJ’s arm.