Bradley’s Buzz: ESPN’s Buster doesn’t love Braves’ rotation
This, as you doubtless know, is not a recent picture. (AJC photo by Curtis Compton)
We keep hearing that the Braves’ rotation will be just as good without the man who finished fourth in the National League Cy Young voting in 2009. The (thin) reasoning: That Javier Vazquez was unlikely to have such a season again, but that Tim Hudson — who underwent Tommy John surgery in 2008 and who has won two games since — will absolutely return to top-of-the-rotation form. This, I say again, assumes a lot.
I haven’t quite bought it, and I note for your edification that the estimable Buster Olney of ESPN.com hasn’t yet, either. Writing for ESPN’s Insiders, Buster O. lists his top five rotations — top six, actually — and somehow doesn’t include the Braves’. (Link requires registration.) His rankings:
- 1. Red Sox: Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, John Lackey, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Clay Buchholz, Tim Wakefield.
- 2. Yankees: CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett, Andy Pettitte, Javier Vazquez, Phil Hughes.
- 3. White Sox: Jake Peavy, Mark Buehrle, John Danks, Gavin Floyd, Freddy Garcia.
- 4. Angels: Jered Weaver, Scott Kazmir, Joe Saunders, Ervin Santana, Joel Pineiro.
- 5. Cardinals: Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, Kyle Lohse, Brad Penny and “somebody else.”
- 5a. Phillies: Roy Halladay, Cole Hamels, Joe Blanton, J.A. Happ, Jamie Moyer.
Of the latter, Olney writes: “The Phillies would have been No. 1 if they had Halladay, [Cliff] Lee and Hamels 1-2-3.” And what of the Braves? Here goes:
“I probably would have placed [them] at No. 3 if not for the trade of Javier Vazquez.”
So I guess that makes two among us who haven’t quite grasped the offseason Zen of Wren — Buster O. and yours truly. But you are, as ever, free to tell me how obstinately obtuse I am.
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341 comments Add your comment
chuck
February 9th, 2010
12:21 pm
Has he left NYC/Bristol in 5 years?
And now you’ve classified him as a sissy bookworm to boot…for shame.
C. Tampa Ironworse
February 9th, 2010
12:23 pm
Buster went to Vandy…Whoop T. Stephan Maurberry and Dennis Scott went to Tech and Bush went to Yale. Just so you’ll know…
chuck
February 9th, 2010
12:23 pm
Keep in mind, SC, if you take out Lowe’s worst 5 starts, his ERA drops a whole point, take out his next 3, and its in the low 3s…
I’ll take 26 starts a year in the low 3s…how bout you? His power #s were down, and that’s a concern, and I would have agreed subsidizing up to 12MM of the contract to be done with him and keep JV…but it ain’t my money.
Jt
February 9th, 2010
12:25 pm
I like Olney, but the White Sox at number 3 with Peavy at the top of the rotation? He is a much bigger question mark in my opinion than Hudson. And the Phillies at 5A? Halladay is a true number one- Hamels could be a great number 2 IF he returns to 2008 form. But I would take the any bottom 3 of the Braves rotation easily over the Phillies bottom 3. Kawakami over Moyer- D. Lowe over Blanton- Hanson or Hudson easily ove Happ. So, I guess that is why they will play the games.
WHopper Dawg
February 9th, 2010
12:26 pm
Yep, can’t turn the Vazquez move into chicken salad. It is what it is.
Kelly's Johnson
February 9th, 2010
12:29 pm
We got NOTHING for Vazquez and depending on Hudson to regain his Oakland form. Ain’t happening ! Kawakami is average; Lowe is average. Hansen & Jurrjens are only reliable studs. Medlin should get a shot at starting instead of being wasted in the bullpen. Third place at best !
chuck
February 9th, 2010
12:30 pm
I’ll take Hanson v Halladay and call it a wash…
I’ll put Lowe up v Hamels and say that we will get the more consistent season.
And the bottom 3…no contest…
The Phils shouldn’t have traded Lee, they are gonna need him.
chuck
February 9th, 2010
12:32 pm
Kawakami had some of the best #s in baseball from July on…Lowe pitched well in 3/4 of his starts…and Vazquez never before and never again will have the season he did last year.
People on here know nothing…read some more box scores….idiots.
Count on Huddy for 14 wins and a sub 4 ERA…not bad for your #4….buncha negative putos and pendejos here.
Braves Fan
February 9th, 2010
12:32 pm
We got a potential stud in that deal. I think it clearly detracted a little from the 2010 rotation but may have greatly enhanced the 2012 rotation. The GM has to consider more than the next season in building a franchise. I do wish we had Javy this season but we don’t. Wren has to play the cards he was dealt and I am not ready to start bashing him before pitchers and catchers report.
It easy to say “sell high, buy low” but much harder to have the guts to do it.
Mark Bradley
February 9th, 2010
12:32 pm
I think the Phillies will regret not having Lee, Chuck. But that was a payroll decision they made. It cuts both ways.
Here's the skinny
February 9th, 2010
12:34 pm
Frank Wren is a EFFING MORON. On a level of 1 to 10 of SUCKNESS with 10 being ‘in another cozmos sucky’[ Wren is a 15…
Mark Bradley
February 9th, 2010
12:34 pm
I think, Braves Fan, the Vazquez trade would have gone over much better had it involved a run-producer. As it was, the Braves dumped their best pitcher of 2009 and didn’t address their real need.
chuck
February 9th, 2010
12:37 pm
Well, Mark, you talk about a tipping point of $11.5MM on a guy who WOULDN’T have guaranteed us a world title (JV)…
but wouldn’t it have been smarter for Philly to not re-up Halladay yet, and keep Lee long-term, and use Roy as the rental…would have guaranteed a title this year (IMO)…
I always thought when you had a title in your grasp, you go for it…
Bruce Chen
February 9th, 2010
12:38 pm
“Wren has us positioned very well for the future, with a very good chance to earn a playoff spot this year.”
Again this year major question marks on offense and the bullpen. Anyone you can go into the year knowing for sure what they’ll do? I guess the closest thing would be Mcann, but that’s not a good sign when your best player is the catcher.
1b/3b injury prone players. One playing 1b for the first time.
2b first year as a starter
ss pretty solid
cf hoping for a bounce back year
lf/rf filled by 4th outfielders or a rookie
Bullpen
8th/9th inning guys – 39/40 year olds both had major surgeries in the last couple years.
A lot of question marks for this team, just like last year…
Matt
February 9th, 2010
12:40 pm
Once again the Braves success this season rests on a bunch of “ifs”.
Skeezix
February 9th, 2010
12:41 pm
Of course Buster is right–with Vasquez, the Braves had one of the best rotations in MLB. Also, Wren has weakened the pen by letting Soriano go. The guys he has added for offense are very average hitters–so no additional offense to offset the weaker pitching. At best, the Braves are a second place team. How Wren keeps his job continues to amaze me. Is he related to a key Liberty Media executive? Or is it that he is just what Liberty Media wants in that job—a compliant yes man/lap dog/lackey.
DawgfaninJesup
February 9th, 2010
12:41 pm
Fearless prognostication: Come July or sooner everyone in New York will be wondering why they traded anyone for Vazquez. His ERA will be at least 4.75 and he will not be in the rotation. Take it to the bank.
chuck
February 9th, 2010
12:41 pm
The relievers being old and off of surgery doesn’t concern me for this year. Most times, guys coming off those surgeries are fresh. Look at Moylan throwing a team record for appearances 11 months removed from TJ…
Wagner is a rude little specimen with great mechanics. I expect 45 saves.
Saito has never been less than nasty. I expect our best 8th inning guy since Remlinger.
NCbravesFAN
February 9th, 2010
12:42 pm
Mark,
Would you please list one possible trade scenario for Wren to have traded Lowe or Javy that would have pleased you? Every article you write about the Braves is about Wren’s mistakes, please enlighten me with another option. Please be realistic, we arent the Yankees or BoSox.
Scott
February 9th, 2010
12:44 pm
Are you guys saying we should have kept all six of our starting pitchers (since we couldn’t get rid of Lowe) and just not signed anyone else this year?
Mark Bradley
February 9th, 2010
12:44 pm
That’s the point, NCbravesFan. I wouldn’t have traded either. Can’t have too much starting pitcher, I say.
Bruce Chen
February 9th, 2010
12:47 pm
I hope “Chuck” is right b/c according to him the Braves should finish about 122-40 with everyone having career years.
Herschel Talker
February 9th, 2010
12:47 pm
Chuck – Melky will most likely be traded for what? A bad middle reliever? Does that now justify the trade? That doesn’t take away from my initial point.
If it was about payroll, then Frank Wreck should come out and say that. Don’t tell us it’s not about payroll and tell us that trading Vazquez for Cabrera was because Cabrera is such a valuable piece. That is the height of arrogance, to assume we are so stupid.
NCbravesFAN
February 9th, 2010
12:47 pm
To anyone that worries about Wagner and Saito. Did you EVER feel secure with our bullpen the last two years? Gonzo and Soriano both came off of surgery themselves in the last 2 seasons and they have yet to ever produce a full season as a dominant closer. When Soriano was on, he was nasty but how many game winning HR’s did he give up last year? How many times did Gonzo come in walk the first 2 guys and squeak out of the inning with a K and double play? Too often for me!!
chuck
February 9th, 2010
12:48 pm
But Mark, our salary would’ve been like $42MM for 4 pitchers (Huddy, Lowe, JV, KK) and $45MM for 21 other players…that is unbalanced…
Do people not put any stock in Vizcaino? That is a HUGE piece for a couple years from now. And i have middling hopes for Dunn as well…Melky is an expendable afterthought that may be able to help for a short while.
First of all...
February 9th, 2010
12:48 pm
We signed Melky Cabrera in the offseason. All of our prayers have been answered.
chuck
February 9th, 2010
12:49 pm
But Herschel the piece was Vizcaino…and salary relief…both necessary evils when operating on a budget. Melky, like i said, was just a piece that we could fit in in addition to the minor league arms and extra saves so we could go get a potential 35 HR guy in Glaus, and a solid bench player in Hinske.
Herschel Talker
February 9th, 2010
12:50 pm
MB:
I’m glad you don’t have a problem with Wreck. But I do. Troy Glaus is a disgraced ex-roid user and should be nowhere near first base. His idea of acquiring a big bat is Glaus and Hinske. Meanwhile, who is our leadoff hitter? Why isn’t he getting Johnny Damon? He signs Billy Wagner because he thinks Soriano won’t accept arbitration. Then Soriano does. Then he gets on sports talk radio and tells us that it won’t be a problem unloading Soriano because the market for closers had barely gotten going (which was affirmed by his ability to dump Soriano rather quickly). Well, Frank, if the market for closers had barely gotten going, then what was the urgency to sign Wagner before waiting to see if Soriano would accept? So he aged our bullpen by a ton, for similar money as we paid for Gonzo and Soriano. The man is an arrogant jerk and a putz.
HT
NCbravesFAN
February 9th, 2010
12:50 pm
So Mark, you want to put KK as a $7mil middle relief pitcher? It’s easy to say “dont trade either” but we all knew someone was getting traded? Please list another team with 6 SP? Boston is the only one and that including Wakefield, who really isnt a full season pitcher anymore.
TommyP
February 9th, 2010
12:51 pm
Listing the Phils in that top 6 is absurd. Olney loses credibility with that one.
chuck
February 9th, 2010
12:51 pm
Gonzo loved to create innings out of nothing….up 0-2 with an out, hit a batter, wild pitch him over, base hit, boom…blown hold…
But i wasn’t worried about their arms, because as i said before, most guys coming off the surgeries are pretty much immune for a year or two (if they have good mechanics).
Frank Wren
February 9th, 2010
12:52 pm
If you fans are confused and angry, find solace in the fact that I don’t understand my bone headed trades either.
rlinaug
February 9th, 2010
12:53 pm
Jamie Moyer? Is Pedro no longer a Phil? If not, where is he? He’s a huge upgrade over Moyer.
Herschel Talker
February 9th, 2010
12:53 pm
Chuck – if the piece was Vizcaino, which is a fair point, then he should not be so arrogant not to tell us that it’s about dumping salary and getting prospects like the Pirates and Royals do. If he’s hamstrung because corporate is dictating such, then keep it real, and I think most of us will accept that he is hamstrung. But he tells us how great a piece Cabrera was in NY, and how much he’ll add to our team. Meanwhile, Cabrera hit 12 HRs in the new Yankee Stadium, in a year I believe the Yankees set a team record for HRs (you can correct that if it’s wrong). Some piece we got there. We all know it’s a salary dump, so he should not be so arrogant to assume we won’t see through his nonsense.
Liberty Media
February 9th, 2010
12:54 pm
If you fans don’t like it, you can eat cake!
chuck
February 9th, 2010
12:55 pm
I agree the PR is posturing nonsense…but we are smart enough to know as fans that cap relief was chief…i don’t need him to tell me.
Not sure how many ABs he got to hit those 12, if it was 400 or more or not…i need to look it up. But i don’t think he’ll be around for long.
NCbravesFAN
February 9th, 2010
12:57 pm
HT,
Since when does an owner, GM, or manager ever have to “inform the fanbase” of any reasoning behind trades or any disclosure of payroll? I would like you to show me where the pirates and royals managment posts their “Im sorry’s” to there fans? I would like to read that!
collegeballfan
February 9th, 2010
12:57 pm
I offer you the following tidbit:
“On August 12, 1987, the Atlanta Braves dealt pitcher Doyle Alexander to the Detroit Tigers for minor league pitcher John Smoltz.”
If I recall correctly, A – Smoltz was a year out of high school and B – Alexander was the Braves ace.
I am not saying the Vazquez for Vizcaino trade will be just as rich for the Braves. But lets see Vizcaino in two or three years.
CJ
February 9th, 2010
12:59 pm
It is a solid rotation, but not elite. With the Braves hitting, we needed something elite. Thanks Frank, for Jack Sh!t! Traded Vasquez for absolutely nothing. GO GET US A HITTER THAT IS IN HIS MID 20′S AND NOT DETERIORATING FROM ROIDS!
NCbravesFAN
February 9th, 2010
12:59 pm
Mark,
Im still waiting on a trade scenario?
Or are you just dodging that question with the “dont trade either” comment?
Grey Dog
February 9th, 2010
1:01 pm
Pitching staff will be OK but Braves still need a BIG STAR BAT ! Chipper is always hurt, McCann can’t play everyday and fans want a Superstar in the lineup! There is no Superstar and of course Damon is not the answer! Stars put butts in the seats!
NCbravesFAN
February 9th, 2010
1:01 pm
CJ,
Wren did “go get us a hitter in his 20’s”….it wasnt a trade, it wasnt a free agent, it was doing NOTHING to block Jason Heyward or Freddie Freeman from their path to the pro’s!
CJ
February 9th, 2010
1:11 pm
NCbravesFAN,
I really do hope to see them up there! I think Frank sat too long on Hanson and that is why we missed the playoffs AGAIN! There is a good chance we see neither of those guys at the start of the year with that @$$ hole Wren running things!
ynot
February 9th, 2010
1:13 pm
I wish we could all play with “Yankees money”. You had to know someone was going. Sorry, it had to be Vazquez. Hopefully, they use that money wisely.
Knockahoma
February 9th, 2010
1:13 pm
I really can’t see the Phillies in the top 10 with Hamels and Moyer.
The Angels are also a surprise without Lackey. Are they asuming Carpenter (St Louis) and Peavy (White Sox) will return to their
old form after injuries? If so let’s assume the same with Hudson.
The trade of Vazquez would have never have happened if there had been
a market for Lowe but someone’s salary had to go, unfortunately.
One name on the list which should haunt Atl is Wainwright. He was traded in the JD Drew trade. This one may mirror the Smoltz-Alexander
trade.
Connie Mack
February 9th, 2010
1:14 pm
Buster Olney has no credibility? The Braves have not seen a post-season since 2005; or World Series in 11 years. The Braves and their fans have ZERO credibility. You can only milk the “14 Consecutive division championships” nonsense for so long. That doesn’t play in NY, Boston or Philly. Nowhere but Atlanta do division crowns count for anything.
CJ
February 9th, 2010
1:17 pm
Connie Mack,
GO BACK TO NY you COMMIE
NCbravesFAN
February 9th, 2010
1:17 pm
CJ,
Im not so harsh on Wren, the man has a budget from crappy ownership, and deals with a fanbase that wont sell out a playoff game.
There are huge financial benefits to keeping these guys down in AAA until a certain date. Thats why Medlen came up before Hanson last year (his ceiling is lower and so will be his next contract).
That may be the only benefit from keeping Heyward down to start this year, they seem to WANT him to make the team and make an impact! I dont expect FF until 2011, barring an exceptional start at gwinnett and injuries to the big club.
Knockahoma
February 9th, 2010
1:18 pm
Mark, Don’t short-change Troy Glaus. He’s got a lot of pop and the
Braves obviously believe he is healthy or they would not have pd him
2 M + incentives. The move to 1B will be easy for him (he’s a former
SS in college with good hands.
Taco Bell makes me fart
February 9th, 2010
1:19 pm
I agree with CJ, we should have at least got someone under 30 that has actually not platooned with someone else and has been a starter for once. I know we have a budget and blah blah blah but c’mon every GM in the league could have at least got 1 player that could have been more than a backup/platoon guy for one of the best pitchers in the NL. Heck, if he had some run support this year, Javy might have won the Cy Young. I dont care if the prospects might be the greatest on earth (usually with the NY media, every Yankees prospect is) if they are 19 years old, then they arent going to do you much good anytime soon and by the time they are the team will be totally different and have new issues to deal with so its better to get at least a prospect that has played AAA or AA ball so you know they can come up to the big leagues sometime in the next 2 years. Way to go Wren, quit taking advice from Don Waddell…