Now subbing for Javier Vazquez, a rejuvenated Tim Hudson
Here's Tim Hudson, back at work. (AJC photo by Bob Andres)
On the first day of February and Camp Roger, Bobby Cox called Tim Hudson “kind of the forgotten man.” While true for now, it won’t be true for long. Because Tim Hudson has to approximate Javier Vazquez for the Braves’ winter maneuvers to pan out.
Even Hudson concedes the point. “If I don’t come back, I don’t see how they could have [traded Vazquez],” he said. “I don’t think any team could have traded a pitcher like that.”
Hudson offered a cheaper, longer-term option. He took a hometown discount to re-up for three years at $28 million, with a club option for the 2013 season. Vazquez was due to make $11.5 million this season and then would surely have left as a free agent. Monetarily, the trade-off — Hudson in, Vazquez out — makes great good sense.
At issue is whether it makes competitive sense. Vazquez would likely have started on Opening Day. He won 15 games last season and finished fourth in the National League Cy Young voting. Hudson won two games in 2009, but those two games — coming as they did after a year’s layoff due to Tommy John surgery — convinced the Braves that he was the Hudson of yesteryear.
“Huddy will be very good,” Bobby Cox said Monday. “He’s throwing the ball really good right now. He’s an ace — we forget that.”
Certainly that’s what the Braves thought they were getting when they acquired Hudson from Oakland in December 2004. But in his first four seasons as a Brave — his 2008 campaign was truncated by injury — Hudson more often looked like a No. 3 starter than a No. 1. He was 54-38 with an ERA of 3.78. (Over six seasons with the A’s he was 92-39 with an ERA of 3.30.)
Not once as a Brave has Hudson had a season to match what Vazquez did last year — 15-10 with 238 strikeouts and an ERA of 2.87. The Braves are betting that a rotation can be just as strong without its No. 1 man, but for that to happen Hudson must produce at a higher rate than he has since switching leagues.
Cox: “Nobody wanted to lose Vazquez, of course. [But] if we weren’t sold on Huddy we wouldn’t have [re-]signed him. He’s still young [Hudson turns 35 in July]. He’s a top-of-the-rotation guy.”
And maybe he is, because maybe we haven’t yet seen the real Tim Hudson. There were times over his first four seasons when he looked so hittable you asked yourself, “Is something wrong with his arm?” Hudson kept insisting there wasn’t, but now, in the cold light of hindsight, he thinks there might have been.
“I understand how healthy I am,” Hudson said. “Physically I feel better than I did five or six years ago … My arm hasn’t felt this good in eight years. It feels good to be in that good a shape. I’d been having aches and pains, and I just thought that was part of getting older, but now I know my arm wasn’t what it needed to be.”
The surgery rebuilt his elbow, and during the rehab Hudson also strengthened his shoulder. The result: One rejuvenated right arm. And perhaps, down the road, an affirmation of Frank Wren’s busy winter. The general manager traded his best pitcher from 2009 and didn’t get a full-time starter — Melky Cabrera is seen as a fourth outfielder — in return. The move looked strange at the time. It will look better only if Tim Hudson holds up his end.
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160 comments Add your comment
JEZ
February 1st, 2010
1:31 pm
First
jimmy
February 1st, 2010
1:34 pm
don’t worry about huddy he will hold up his end worry about the bats seven out of nine have quustion marks
chem
February 1st, 2010
1:38 pm
Even if Hudson gives his best Vazquez impersonation, the Braves still need to score runs. Shouldn’t they have some money still leftover from dumping Vazquez?
Coach (2011 or Bust)
February 1st, 2010
1:40 pm
By trading Vazquez the Braves went from potentially having the best rotation in baseball to merely having one of the top five. But yes, Huddy is an Ace. So are Hanson and JJ. Derek Lowe is in slow decline but how many teams have a fifteen game winner as their projected fourth starter? Throw in Kawakami and I really like our chances.
The only potential hitch in Atlanta’s starting pitching is the lack of proven depth beyond Kris Medlen. So let’s be hopeful that the starting five will stay healthy. Ditto for Chipper and Troy Glaus.
Mark Bradley
February 1st, 2010
1:41 pm
About $5 million, as I figure it, Chem.
Mark Bradley
February 1st, 2010
1:42 pm
Oh, and kudos to JEZ.
Poorbrave
February 1st, 2010
1:45 pm
Boy this team is full of “If”. You can bet one of those “if’s” will jump up and bite you in the A@@. Praying for a miracle. Go Braves.
Bill
February 1st, 2010
1:51 pm
Thanks Mark for a little Braves news. Braves still need another power hitter that Wren has promised for two years. Whats your thoughts on Braves signing Damon? Always respect your opinion.
Astro Joe
February 1st, 2010
1:54 pm
If TJ surgery works out well for Huddy and Wagner… can we see if Chipper can have TJ surgery too?
TruthSeeker
February 1st, 2010
1:56 pm
I don’t think Hudson necessarily has to be as good as Javy was last year. Personally, I don’t know what to expect from Huddy. It wouldn’t surprise me if he’s lights-out, nor would it surprise me if he gets pounded the same way he did in ‘06.
I expect our top two starters to be JJ and Tommy Hanson, in either order. Both guys are capable of competing for the Cy Young. I’m not a huge Lowe fan, but I do expect him to be a littler bit better than he was last year. If Hudson can just be a dependable 3rd or 4th starter (12-14 wins, 3.75-4.00 ERA) I’ll take that in a heartbeat.
Regardless, we’ll have enough pitching barring a rash of injuries or a bunch of guys underperforming. The question remains: can we score enough runs? That I’m a lot less confident about.
jmarable
February 1st, 2010
2:01 pm
the braves r thinking save money b 4 they think winning.unlike the yankees,red sox.phillies,dodgers.mets.anyone who wants to win would not give up there number one arm,4 a bench riding melki cabera.my lord.who can take the braves serious i sure cant.i go to 25 games a year.not this summer.im not impressed with whats happening.its said .we downgraded ever one else upgraded,go figure
F-105 Thunderchief
February 1st, 2010
2:08 pm
What’s he looking at?
Bigstack O' Pancakes. It is an Irish name.
February 1st, 2010
2:08 pm
It won’t matter who is pitching if they can’t score runs when their old, often injured 3 and four hitters are on the bench nursing injuries. The lineup is a joke. The back end of the bullpen scares me too. You replace a fireballing Soriano with a guy pushing 40 who is coming off major surgery. You replace Gonzo with another guy pushing 40 who had his best years long ago. That is also a joke to me. After Cox retires the Braves need to get into rebuilding and build for 2012 and beyond. Quit adding all of these question mark vets who are past their prime hoping they don’t fall apart and can squeeze out one more productive season. I have seen this before. Where was it? Oh yeah, Baltimore when that idiot Wren was the GM and ran the team into the ground. The Orioles have been in the toilet ever since. Also, people who brag about being the first post on any blog are giant losers who need to move out of their parent’s basement, get a job, actually talk to a girl, grow up and get a life.
lefty fielder
February 1st, 2010
2:12 pm
i still feel like vizcaino and dunn might have been the main targets of the vazquez trade . . . whatcha think?
lefty fielder
February 1st, 2010
2:13 pm
For the record, a lot of Yankee fans don’t have much confidence in Vazquez . . . say he won’t be nearly as effective in the American League.
F-105 Thunderchief
February 1st, 2010
2:13 pm
This team feels as rickety going into spring training as the 2008 club did. Sorry, but I don’t think Wren upgraded the team at all. Reagan asked, “Are you better off …?” I’ve got to say, no.
Willy
February 1st, 2010
2:16 pm
Still, couldn’t we have gotten more from the Vasquez trade? It’s almost like saying it makes sense to cut somebody, because this other guy might be almost as good.
Barnacle Bill Bavasi
February 1st, 2010
2:24 pm
For the record, I’m just thrilled about Milky Carerra, that is his name, right? I mean, can you imagine being able to get that guy in trade – we’re talking a fourth outfield here – for a top-notch starter? I sure didn’t. Wow
banshee29
February 1st, 2010
2:24 pm
and if he doesnt pan out? Love Huddie, but he makes me nervous. Braves are waiting on the missing link, as usual. Too many old superstars…
Bravissimo
February 1st, 2010
2:26 pm
lefty fielder.. a lot Braves fans didnt have much confidence in Vasquez before the 09 season either..
I think Huddy will be just fine…we just need to score runs!
jmarable
February 1st, 2010
2:27 pm
have the braves 4gotten u can steal second u dont have to wait on back to back to back hits to get a run.OH my bad.we have no speed.or power in the outfield.how r we gonna score.oh my bad.we just want to save money.we r the best at that.go braves.who we trade next Hanson 4 a 40 yr old set up guy.braves suck in 2010.believe it fellas
Wren Hater
February 1st, 2010
2:33 pm
Could we please get Frank “Wrong Again” Wren to stand in as catcher for Cap Roger, preferably WITHOUT using a glove, padding or mask?
collegeballfan
February 1st, 2010
2:36 pm
I can live with the starters. I just hope the old guys in the bullpen can hold up. And are we gonna get JJ some runs this year?
NC Braves Fan
February 1st, 2010
2:37 pm
Great post, Mark. Hudson, combined with a full year of Hanson and another year of JJJ should equal or surpass what JV gave us in 2009.
Wren Hater
February 1st, 2010
2:38 pm
CORRECTION:
CAMP ROGER
(I wish it were “CAMP LEO” instead.)
Ryan
February 1st, 2010
2:39 pm
Vazquez in 2008 was the blind squirrel finding an acorn. He’s simply not a #1 starter.
Even last year, I’d have trusted Hanson and JJ in a critical game much more than I’d have trusted Vazquez.
Kurdt Kobain
February 1st, 2010
2:45 pm
I’m with some others in that I think Hanson and JJ are collectively going to pick up the slack, not Hudson.
Barnacle Bill Bavasi
February 1st, 2010
2:48 pm
Jair is the No. 1 starter and was last year. That said, we sure haven’t improved this year’s team with the trade. Not unless Dunn turns into another Gonzalez or Soriano. It’ll be a fine trade if (and it’s a BIG if) Vizcaino makes it clear he’s the next Tommy Hanson.
Kentavo
February 1st, 2010
2:53 pm
Ever since the purse strings were tightened we’ve been told that so-and-so coming back from an injury is “just like signing a major free agent.”
Hogwash.
JEZ
February 1st, 2010
2:59 pm
It appears Wren is putting all of his eggs in the Heyward basket, expecting him to be our starting RF without actually saying it. I don’t doubt the guy is a beast, but he STILL has not had much experience above AA-ball…not very confident at this point.
BSIATL
February 1st, 2010
3:03 pm
It wasn’t Vasquez for Melky people…stop thinking that way. Vasquez is unlikely to repeat his breakout year this year and was owed 11.5 mil. They got a very reliable 3rd or 4th outfielder in Melky who gets on base and plays a decent outfield. They also got a stud prospect in Vizcaino and a good power arm for the bullpen that will be on the 25 man roster. In addition to that swap of players that also freed up the money to get Troy Glaus at first and Eric Hinske who can play both 1st and 3rd quite well and can help keep the injury prone Chipper and Glaus rested and hopefully healthy. So you see it was a 5 for one swap and we already had enough starters with Hudson coming back. Hudson’s WAR rating is +2.5 and Vazquez has a WAR rating this season of +3. So you really want to keep Vazquez for a half of a win and not aquire those other 5? Glaus and Hinske both have WAR ratings of +1/1.5 so we actually made out like bandits in this deal.
Kentavo
February 1st, 2010
3:07 pm
The thing that worries me about Heyward is not ability – it is the injury bug – he’s been injured quite a bit in his brief career – including being shut down in the AFL for a bad back. That ain’t good for a guy who can’t even legally drink yet.
Bristol Palin 2012
February 1st, 2010
3:08 pm
I’ve always liked Huddy & hope he has a great year. Mark, how old is he now, 34 or 35? Hope his arm holds up after that kind of surgery, otherwise JJ & Hanson will have quite a load.
Man Ray
February 1st, 2010
3:10 pm
BS Institute of Atlanta? Is that what your handle stands for? Made out like bandits. Pfft.
BSIATL
February 1st, 2010
3:16 pm
Which part of my post didn’t make sense to you Man Ray?
polskidawg
February 1st, 2010
3:17 pm
Huddy hasn’t been an ace in 8 years, but he doesn’t have to be one. Using any reasonable thought, the rotation will be Hanson, JJ, Huddy, Lowe, Kawakami – possibly switching the first two.
As mentioned several times, the offense is the real question mark.
Man Ray
February 1st, 2010
3:23 pm
The part that says trading a top-of-the order starter for a reserve outfielder, a mediocre reliever and a very young, very far from the Big League roster starter is making out like a bandit. Oh yeah, I’m sorry, you have to throw in Glaus, a broken down .255-hitting third baseman who we are counting on to be an All-Star at first base, along with Hinske, a reserve infielder. Yeah, what a load … er, I mean haul.
BSIATL
February 1st, 2010
3:24 pm
So Man Ray…you’re ok with keeping a +3 WAR pitcher in exchange for players totaling +5/5.5. That extra 2 to 2.5 wins just may be pretty darn important come September (it would have made a BIG difference last year). But I get that you are ok to take less wins from a pitcher who will walk at the end of the year and we get nothing in return. Sure am glad you’re not the GM!
todd grantham
February 1st, 2010
3:27 pm
let’s just hope Huddy doesn’t blow out that elbow.
Tech Rules
February 1st, 2010
3:30 pm
How weird is it that an outfielder who started for the Yankees last year won’t start for the Braves this year?
Man Ray
February 1st, 2010
3:31 pm
I don’t want the Braves to operate on the shaky prayer than Glaus and Hinsky (hey, Greg Norton was a reserve infielder) are going to push the Braves over the top. And, your +5/5.5 held tightly to your breast as a certainty is most certainly not that. Glad you’re not the GM.
Man Ray
February 1st, 2010
3:33 pm
Oh wait. Maybe you are.
BSIATL
February 1st, 2010
3:35 pm
The two worst statistics to judge an offensive player by are batting average and RBIs. The two worst for pitchers are wins and ERA. So please stop quoting these statistics to back up arguments on why this player is better than that player etc…
Man Ray
February 1st, 2010
3:37 pm
The two worst statistics to judge an offensive player by are batting average and RBIs. The two worst for pitchers are wins and ERA.
Like I said BS Institute. Done paying you attention, you leg puller you.
BSIATL
February 1st, 2010
3:38 pm
Man Ray…you can have Javy Vasquez and Greg Norton…I’ll field a team with Hudson, Glaus, Hinske, Cabrera and Mike Dunn (with Vizcaino coming up in 2012 or 2013 as one of many stud starting pitchers we’ll have ready). Best of luck to you!
P.S. – I don’t make up the WAR ratings…I just look at them to judge players values like we are in this debate. It’s the closest thing we have to go by to determine a players value against their cost and is shockingly accurate.
MAYOR OF PONCE
February 1st, 2010
3:40 pm
FIRST!
The Lemer
February 1st, 2010
3:42 pm
I find it hilarious that Atlanta writers are talking about how Hudson has some big shoes to fill. Vasquez was a number 4 starter in the American League. He comes over to the NL, where hitters are much easier to get out, and does well. A year ago, Atlanta writers were scratching their heads as to why the Braves picked him up from the White Sox. Vasquez is not that great of a pitcher and he will probably win 12-13 games in NY. Hudson is a sub-par pitcher who hasn’t done anything great since leaving Oakland. The biggest problem with Atlanta is lack of planning. Instead of building teams from the ground up, they always put band aids on their teams. Hudson has maybe 2-3 years left in him if that. The Braves biggest problem is their hitting. Start there and THEN talk about pitching. So far, their pitching staff looks fine. Not great but not bad.
BSIATL
February 1st, 2010
3:50 pm
OBA, OPS and BaBiP are the three statistical categories you should look at to judge one’s offensive abilities…WHiP and FIP are the best for pitchers. For defense look at a players 150/UZR rating. Done with educating you on baseball stats Man Ray!
bill-1956
February 1st, 2010
3:59 pm
All of these young players and we have a manager in his last year. I sure hope the next manager is not one of the current coaches, especially pendleton. I for one would have liked to see Greg Madduix hired as a coach and understudy to cox this year.
Joe Fan
February 1st, 2010
3:59 pm
To Bobby Cox every player looks like Cy Young or Babe Ruth. I wish, I had his rose clored glasses. Hence his comments calling Hudson an ACE. Hudson has not been much more than an average pitcher for the Braves. Hopefully , he takes the next step up this year. The Braves need offense. They feel like an old team. No much to get excited about going into the season except for watching Hanson and JJ pitch.
EW
February 1st, 2010
4:00 pm
We will see if it was arm troubles or a weak division out west that was causing the numbers discrepancies (sp?). I might argue that the NL East had something to do with the drop in production.
ATLFan
February 1st, 2010
4:08 pm
Too late for that, bill-1956. Mad Dog joined the Cubs organization a couple of weeks ago.
Mike
February 1st, 2010
4:11 pm
All the arms in the world won’t change the fact that the Braves can’t score. Damon….Damon…Anyone…
Ralph
February 1st, 2010
4:11 pm
It makes no difference what kind of team Wren puts in the club house, COX will find a way to lose, we’ll have to wait til 2011.
Sports Watcher
February 1st, 2010
4:14 pm
Vick could be traded before NFL draft
http://digitalsportsdaily.com/nfl/20377
gayle
February 1st, 2010
4:14 pm
When “ifs” can be traded for wins, then this team should start printing playoff tickets.
IF Hudson can perform as he did those few starts at the end of last year, IF Wagner suddenly finds the control and fastball that he lost before the surgery, IF Glaus remembers how to hit and forgets how to get injured, IF Melky Cabrera is a much better player in the NL, IF Chipper remembers how to hit, drive in runs and forgets how to get hangnails, IF McCann continues to produce with so much pressure on the offense, IF Saito suddenly learns how to be a set-up man for Wagner (see above), IF Bobby Cox suddenly learns how not to burn out a bullpen by the All Star break, IFEscobar can keep his head together, IF Hanson can continue his success and not have a sophomore slump, IF the Phillies forget how to hit, IF the Mets continue to have half their starting lineup on injured reserve…………
Seems like an awful lot of IFs – and I left a bunch off. You may want to hold off on that playoff ticket printing for the time being.
Nativebird
February 1st, 2010
4:15 pm
I like our staff, but the question is not Huddy, the question is the “ace” we gave a mint to last year, Lowe. He got his doe, and preceded to do what most ego-maniac “Ive earned it” Major league pitchers do…cruise. So we ditch Javier, our hardest working, best performing pitcher, and STILL don’t have the RBI producing power hitting right handed First Basemen that everyone and their sister knows this team needs.
Alan
February 1st, 2010
4:16 pm
Mark, you’re right on the money. The Braves felt they had to dump salary this offseason, and their first choice was Lowe. When that didn’t work out, they turned to Vazquez. They’re gambling that a rejuvenated Hudson will pitch as effectively as Vazquez did last year, and he might. Then again, he might not. Time will tell. In the meantime, though, what every Braves fan was hoping for all winter — the delivery of a “big bopper” — presumably with the money saved from the Vazquez trade — never happened. Troy Glaus, Melky Cabrera and Eric Hinske are not exactly the names we’ve had in mind this hot-stove season.
bill t
February 1st, 2010
4:19 pm
Fifty ninth!!
MB Tells Lies
February 1st, 2010
4:24 pm
Read the rebuttal that http://www.talkingchop.com on the front page has for mark bradley and how inaccurate this article truly is… Tim Hudson is a better pitcher than Vazquez
Cecil34
February 1st, 2010
4:29 pm
When is the last time that you heard Cox say “this player is a piece of trash and washed up to boot! Hasn’t been healthy for years and doesn’t produce!”
Exactly – his opinions have no credibility…..
CJ
February 1st, 2010
4:32 pm
Do we still have Lowe or is he going to be the all time Home Run derby pitcher? He would be perfect from what I have seen! Just tell him to give it his best shot and he will throw that 83 MPH heater over the center part of the plate. He would be perfect to take over Glavines roll of Home Run King!
Mark Bradley
February 1st, 2010
4:33 pm
Cox says that all the time, Cecil34. Trouble is, he says it about me.
Chief Pitchanono
February 1st, 2010
4:35 pm
Mark the article makes no since – Huddy has no shoes to fill, he just has to keep being himself and stay healthy. Vazquez has one great career year and everyone acts like we just traded away smoltz or glavine in there prime. I hope he does good with the Yanks but there is still no reason to believe that he will be anything more that a 4th or 5th starter type guy. Even if he does have another great year there is no way he would have gave us the deal that huddy did during free agency. So either way he wasnt going to be around long. I like our current rotation and now its pretty much set for the future too and that says allot. If we dont make it this year wont be because of the starters.
Ramblin Wrecker
February 1st, 2010
4:38 pm
Mark,
One point I think you miss is that Javy Vazquez never had a season like Javy Vazquez did in 2009. So I think it’s a little silly to make out like it will be difficult for Tim Hudson to fill his shoes. Chances are even had Javy stayed, he would not repeat that performance.
Plus I prefer to look at it like Tommy Hanson is replacing Javy, not Tim Hudson, because I feel Hanson is the ace of this staff, if not Jurrjens (let’s not forget Jurrjens was just as spectacular as Javy, but his performance is becoming a habit, not the anomaly that Javy’s was). So Hudson is more like the #3 guy, and I’d take a #3 guy with a track record of 148-78, 3.49 ERA over 11 seaspns. He’s more consistent than Vazquez historically. Hell, Derek Lowe is more consistent than Vazquez for that matter.
But make no mistake, Hanson and Jurrjens will be what carries this rotation. Hey, and Kawakami was not bad. He had a rough April, and then one bad start in July, but was otherwise very effective, especially against big time opponents. Remember he beat Roy Halladay, John Santana and Dice-K head to head last season and was dominating in those pressure packed games.
Mark Bradley
February 1st, 2010
4:41 pm
The best part of the 2009 rotation was Javier Vazquez. The Braves traded him. Wouldn’t you say someone has to make up for that or the rotation will be lessened?
Oh, and I never said Hudson hasn’t had a better career than Vazquez. What I said: As a Brave, Hudson has never had as good a season as Vazquez did in 2009. Hudson was 16-10 in 2007, but his ERA was 3.33 and he had 132 strikeouts. That’s not a “lie.” That’s the fact, Jack.
Ramblin Wrecker
February 1st, 2010
4:41 pm
I think the rotation will be better this season than last year, because you get a full season of Tommy Hanson and what I think will be a bounce back from Derek Lowe.
Will they have enough offense is the question. I think if Troy Glaus is healthy, which is definitely a question mark, he will provide a power prescence in the heart of the order. Then you get a full season from McLouth in CF, a full season of Martin Prado at 2B with a phenom in RF, Heyward and they just might have something cooking. I think Chipper will bounce back. If Glaus is going well and Escobar continues his progress, pitchers will have to pitch to Chipper. And if I know him, he’ll have his mechanics worked out just fine.
Ramblin Wrecker
February 1st, 2010
4:47 pm
Mark,
That’s fine to say about Vasquez, but what about his career suggests that 2010 would be a repeat of 2009 (or anywhere close)? He could just as easy have a 10-13 with a 4.00 ERA which would not be as good as Tim Hudson. While Javy’s best might be better than Hudson, Hudson’s worst is just every other year for Javy.
teamguy
February 1st, 2010
4:48 pm
I wish it were “Camp Leo”, too. .anything to get him off the radio. My god!
Ray B
February 1st, 2010
4:48 pm
Neither Hudson or Lowe have much of a breaking pitch, one that breaks away from a right-handed batter. Everything they throw goes down, or in and down. Although the sinker, or whatever you want to call it, is tough to hit, they need more variety, or at least a threat of it to keep hitters honest. It would seem very ill advised to have them follow each other in the rotation.
MitchC
February 1st, 2010
4:51 pm
Mark, the Braves have had pitchers lose time to Tommy John Surgery, and then come back good as new.
Look at Smoltz: I know he threw harder in his heyday then Huddy ever did, but Smoltzie misses the whole 2000 season, and a good chunk of 2001. Then he comes back, and is lights out as the closer for three plus years, and then slides back into the rotation, as if he had never left the rotation, and has three very good years there too from 2005 to 2007 before burning out.
I think our rotation will be fine. If Hanson doesnt have a soph slump, it should be very good.
The pitcher to watch in 2010 will be Lowe. I was not happy that we kept him, even though it didnt surprise me. I wouldnt be a bit surprised if Hudson has a better season than Lowe, with a lower ERA.
My bet is that Hudson will be just fine. If he’s healthy, and gets run support, pencil him in for 13 to 16 wins, and a sub 3.50 ERA.
Nativebird
February 1st, 2010
4:53 pm
Hey…I hear Tom Glavine is available. Still.
From the Basement
February 1st, 2010
4:57 pm
Hey mom you forgot the syrup.
FIRST
HaHa
First to have my mom bring some stacks to the basement.
It will be interesting to see if Rooster can hold up the whole year. Rooster’s what we call him here at the Basement. I mean Hanson of course.
JJ is our man, Rooster is 2nd and Huddy is my buddy is 3rd. It would be nice to see him hit 15 wins. I can see us have 4 15 game winners. I can also see us hitting less than 230 as a team too.
From the basement with a stack o’cakes it’s me.
Mom, I need some buddah!
Greg from Marietta
February 1st, 2010
5:02 pm
The Braves will be just fine in the pitching department. It’s the hitting that is going to be behind the power curve. They need at least one more big bat to really be competitive in the division. If they can just get a hitter and generate some team consistency in the batter’s box then the pitching will sail along without a hitch.
Billy Ray Valentine....Capricorn
February 1st, 2010
5:03 pm
Come on, Mark, you should know that Hudson is a karate man. You see, a karate man bruises on the inside. That way he don’t show his weaknesses. Hudson and his Camaro will be just fine.
deriter
February 1st, 2010
5:16 pm
I believe F. Wren & B. Cox made one their biggest blunders ever. Better to have a proven #1 starter for a year, than a surgically repaired #3 or #4 starter who might not last the year.
Jeff
February 1st, 2010
5:21 pm
Sorry, I love Hudson, but I STILL hate the Braves’ offseason moves.
First of all, if ANY team in baseball should know, it should be the Braves, that you can NEVER have too much pitching! I’m sorry, I think we could have been VERY dangerous with a rotation that included Vazquez, Lowe, Hudson, Hanson and Jurrjens. That would enable us to move Kawakami to the bullpen for long relief and emergency starts (remember, rotations NEVER go through a whole year with no injuries). And, I’m sorry, am I crazy, but what would it KILL us to have a six-man rotation? Keeps everybody fresh, so maybe they could go LONGER IN GAMES so we would not have to rely so d*** much on our QUESTIONABLE bullpen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We don’t have a bunch of 25-26-27 year old stud arms like we did in the early 90s with Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Avery, Mercker, Reynoso, Smith, Schmidt, Neagle, etc. This staff we have is older and more likely to break down, so we need ALL the pitching help we can get!!!
This lineup is not our early 90s lineup, either… we will be middle-of-the-pack in batting average, homers, runs scored, etc. Unless several guys have career years, we’re going to NEED all the pitching we can to keep us in games. We will have to win a lot of 3-2 games, because we sure aren’t gonna win a lot of 8-6 games.
I love guys like Hudson and Chipper and Lowe, but they are not getting any younger. And we need to have a year where everybody hits, everybody has career years and every pitcher has a Cy-Young-type season if we’re going to win.
But, as I see it, this is an 80-84 win team, not a playoff contender. Hudson is a great guy, but I don’t see 15 or 18 wins from him. I see 12-14 with a 4.1 ERA. I hope I’m wrong, but betting on guys coming off injuries has not panned out for the Braves lately.
Still, they are my team… GO BRAVES!!!
P.S. And I’d like some other people’s thoughts about moving Kawakami to long relief/emergency starts, or trying a 6-man rotation.
Space Monkey
February 1st, 2010
5:22 pm
I like Hudson but there were a few games at the end of last year where he was throwing batting practice to the other team, and he got lucky that they didn’t launch a big fly. He looked really hittable, and he believe he will be mediocre at best next year. He also isn’t much of a K threat anymore. Vazquez could load the bases with nobody out and get out of it. Hudson will give up at least two runs in those situations. Finally, I disagree that Vazquez wouldn’t have wanted to stay in Atlanta past this year. After all the junk he’s been through in his career, especially the crap that Ozzie Guillen gave him with the Sox, I think he felt at home in Atlanta. That’s one of the reasons he excelled last year. BTW, I don’t believe he will be very good in New York. That stadium is ridiculous. They might as well put each ball on a tee.
Jeff R
February 1st, 2010
5:29 pm
Wren got Melky, but he also got Vizciano, a real comer, according to the scouts. That’s not to say that I wouldn’t have preferred the Braves keeping Javy. But business is business.
I’d expect a healthy Hudson to win in the neighborhood of fifteen games and post an ERA in the mid threes. We’ll see.
BravesfaninNashville
February 1st, 2010
5:36 pm
Mark I don’t understand the negative nature of so many of your articles. You have positioned this as trade in the worst light possible. We got more than a 4th outfielder in Melky with this trade. 1. We are assured to have a pitcher at Tim Hudson’s level for 3 more years. Javy has talked about retiring and there is no guarantee that if he plays on the Braves wouldn’t have been outbid for him. 2. We got to sign Troy Glaus and Hinske with the money we saved on Vasquez. 3. We have added to our farm system depth with an outstanding prospect that could make this trade look really bad for the Yankees someday soon (Ala Tigers trading Smoltz to Atl for Alexander). Even if the prospect doesn’t pan out we got 3 major league players on the field THIS year because of the trade and we have a starting rotation that beats our rotation at the beginning of 09′. We dug such a big hole with JoJo and Kelly Johnson, Shafer, and Francouer that it was hard to bounce back even with the best record in baseball the second half before our six game plunge at the end. This year we’ll have 5 proven starters to begin with and a lineup with no automatic outs in it anywhere. I like this team for the Wild Card. The Phillies are going to be very tough but we got within 3 or 4 games of them with 10 to go after a horrific start. If we start moderately well this year we’ll have a chance with the pitching we’ll run out every night.
SmoltzFAN
February 1st, 2010
5:52 pm
Why wasn’t trading KK an option? Keeping Javi would have given us a 5 man rotation to strike fear in the eyes of opponents…
SouthGaDawg
February 1st, 2010
5:55 pm
Frank Wren needs to be fired.
Lets look at his moves the past couple of years:
1) Overpays for Derek Lowe. (but hey Lowe had 15 wins right? Too bad none of them were when it mattered in September or October…)
2) Overpays for Kawakami. (but we outbid everyone else to get him though!)
3) Trades Frenchy for Ryan Church, a guy with absolutely NO upside. Granted Frenchy wasn’t lighting the world on fire, but at least he has the POTENTIAL to do so. Church will be out of baseball in a year or two.
4) Trades for Laroche. Great move. However, see below:
5) Doesn’t sign Laroche citing concerns that he would want too much money for too long of a term. Instead signs Troy Glaus to play first even though Glaus is a LIFETIME 3rd baseman who was injured all of last season. Oh did I mention he’s getting old too? Post Script: Laroche signs with Arizona for ONLY one year at a bargain of 4.5 million. Great move again Frank.
6) Doesn’t sign Gonzalez or Soriano. These guys are lights out (and young), but then inexplicably signs Billy Wagner. Oh did I mention that he’s old? And did I mention that he was basically injured all of last year? But he’s a sure-fire fix for our bullpen. Was Dan Kolb unavailable or something?
These are just a few of his moves. I didn’t even mention the fact that he burned bridges with Smoltz and Glavine last year. Two of the guys who only built the Atlanta Braves.
Way to go Frank.
BravesfaninNashville
February 1st, 2010
6:01 pm
My prediction is that Vazquez’s numbers will return to a more career norm and so will Hudson’s and Lowe’s. With that being said the Braves will have 4 starters in Hanson, Jurrjens, Hudson and Lowe that will give us a chance to win the majority of the games they start. KK will hold his own against 5th starters and probably improve on his W/L record. The front 4 will probably be 20 games or better over .500. KK will probably be close to .500 so then it comes down to our bullpen. I’ll take this pen over Philadelphia’s any day. Their lineup is menacing for sure but ours should score enough runs to win with this pitching. I think we’ll be within 5 games of Phillie at the end and be in the Wildcard race until the last weekend. Over all I like the trade as Javy is not likely to match the year he had last year and we have plenty of pitching without him. In three or four years we’ll know how good this trade was.
Navigator
February 1st, 2010
6:04 pm
Everybody knows we let a top notch pitcher go to keep Hudson, who will never reach the plateau he used to be on. The Braves needed him because he was older and Bobby Cox needed his old guys.
Elitist
February 1st, 2010
6:05 pm
I have often wondered why the Braves have had attendance problems with a solid, often spectacular team over the years. I live in Texas and figured Atlanta is a lot like Dallas/Fort Worth. The people love football and follow baseball as a second sport. I would expect the newspapers to have one or two baseball experts and the rest of the writers not very knowledgeable about baseball, but still occasionally write about it. The fans that respond to baseball articles, I would expect, to give thoughtful opinions. I have read this blog often and the author is obviously not a baseball writer, and the fans, for the most part should stick to football. Braves will compete with the Phillies for the division title.
AdirondackDave
February 1st, 2010
6:08 pm
I dislike misrepresentation, even from good reporters. Mark, the Braves main get from the trade was Vizcaino, who you didn’t even, mention, not Melky. They also got a promising lefty Dunn.
stinky
February 1st, 2010
6:14 pm
Huddy is a lousy bet to cover Vazquez’s spread. Melky is right up Cox’s alley as a fourth outfielder (Bobby luvs platoons, you know), The Braves willl win 87games, and the Marlins will win 88 games and capture the wild card and then their 3rd world Series. Bobby will pick his nose, scratch his head and forget that he retired. Chipper will bat .272 with 21 HR an 78 RBI and declare his Monster Rebound Season a sucksess, thus ensuring that he collects 28 million dollars over 2011 and 2012
bubbly
February 1st, 2010
6:21 pm
Even if we still Javy he would also have to live up to what he did last year (which is highly unlikely). I think given the options every GM in the league would take Hudson over Vazquez. Let’s face the facts, Hudson has never had a losing season in his career while Javy has had FIVE. Debate over.
jerry
February 1st, 2010
6:21 pm
Mama Cox always gives an honest assessment of her players. They are all going to be great. And they do luuuuuuuuuuuuve Mama. xoxoxoxoxoxox
Mark Bradley
February 1st, 2010
6:25 pm
Trading Kenshin Kawakami wasn’t an option because he won seven games and makes $8 million.
Bill
February 1st, 2010
6:45 pm
Really Mark, How do you expect the Braves to finish this year? 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. Just your opinion.
todd grantham
February 1st, 2010
6:59 pm
well, what about just cutting Kawakami?
rainman
February 1st, 2010
7:00 pm
Mark — I know you understand the starting pitching is not a major issue and are just trying to stir the pot, but maybe we ought to be talking about improving the offense or whether our closers will hold up. How much money do you think Wren has to work with right now – and could that change for any reason?
Poorbrave
February 1st, 2010
7:01 pm
KK didn’t do that bad, in fact he should have had a good record but no run support. check it out! I’m like Bobby Cox on that …he pitched good for 1st year and could have used some support.
Kurt
February 1st, 2010
7:03 pm
Why is everyone acting like Vasquez had never pitched well before last year, first of all he was playing in the much harder to pitch in AL, but since 2000 is second in strikeouts AND innings pitched in the entire MLB, Hudson looked DECENT at the end of last year and I hope he can pull through with some big games. After the year Vasquez had last year, it is hard to say that Hudson is an ace and Vasquez is not. An ace is someone you can count on in big time situations, an injured pitcher is not a man to count on in big time situations. Also, Lowe is not as bad as last year made him out to be. He should bounce back with a sub 4.00 era and i would assume 15 wins. I am not worried about JJ or Hanson as long as we “braves’ fans” don’t put too much b.s. in their way. I would like to lock up both of them for long term deals before this year ends!! As for the offensive spectrum, I was more than happy acquiring McClouth last year and if he would have been healthy the whole second half, we would have no questions about his play. Regarding Melky I think he should fit into the Braves’ defense first style of play, and will end up starting in left. Diaz is a question mark for me, he has performed quite well when given the chances, but none of those chances have come at clutch moments and so it is hard for me to put alot of faith in him YET. At the corners I am a little curious as to why we don’t just give Freeman experience instead of trying to train Glaus to play 1st for only a year or two. A platoon of Hinske n Feeman at 1st would be just as rewarding if not more. I am willing to get behind Chipper for another year at 3rd for what all he has done for this club and that he hasn’t really changed his game as much as he has just had the injuries with the oblique and hip, I would love to see him hit .300+ and rack up some major rbi’s. Positions I am feeling comfortable at are 2nd with the emergence of Prado, SS with Yunel being solid even though he will end up at 3rd in a year or two, and obviously the catcher spot with McCann as an all-star hitting and fielding catcher. I really don’t think we need another outfielder with no power such as Damon who although would be key at leadoff and allow McClouth to bat 4th or 5th( he would have led the team in homers if there the whole year and not counting Laroche). Good Luck 2010 Braves. I will be cheering from Iowa all season long.
braveshoo
February 1st, 2010
7:04 pm
We needed a lot of prospects from trading Vasques to trade to the Padres for Gonzales. If you add him, then and only then is the deal a good deal.
todd grantham
February 1st, 2010
7:09 pm
Mark, is Bobby’s nick for this guy Kamikazi?
rainman
February 1st, 2010
7:15 pm
braveshoo — that’s what I was asking. Do the Braves have enough payroll room left to take on a player like Gonzales for some prospects. Can they even afford Damon?
ayankee brave
February 1st, 2010
7:38 pm
how can you guys say we didnt upgrade from last year. lets look at how we started the season in 09 and look where we are in 10 shall we
09cf-schafer 10cf-mcclouth
1b-Kotchman 1b-Glaus
Rf-Francouer Rf-Heyward/Diaz
Lf-Anderson Lf-Diaz/Cabrera
Bench Norton Bench Heinske
Closer Gonzelaz Closer Wagner
I know the Braves are playing the what if game I understand that, but I really feel Glaus is going to put up his numbers and when laroche bats .220 the first part of the year i think us braves fans will be thankful that we didnt resign him. I think that list the i just mentioned we are better in everyone of those categories even closer (remember Gonzo started the season as closer and was given us all heart attacks every night until he lost his job). Just something to think about to all the wren haters who say he hasnt improved the team.
todd
February 1st, 2010
7:47 pm
When we first started talking about Wren’s moves in November I was one of the few that said to give it time – that he was only beginning and we needed the whole picture. Well, we have it now and it ain’t pretty. I could live with the Vazquez deal because I think we might actually come out ahead in the long term. The fact is our team is arguably worse offensively than last year and that will not put people in seats or win ballgames. A big bat was needed and with a little creativity Wren could have gotten Uggla and a better first baseman from somewhere. Instead we are left with cast offs and maybes. There is no sense of excitement about the upcoming season that could have been provided with a new big bat or two. You would think that they (management) would at least understand the financial benefit of providing energy and excitement by adding some spark to the offense. I am tired of the lack of commitment from the Braves ownership – we better all start voting with our feet when this thing falls apart in May.
Greg
February 1st, 2010
7:48 pm
Why are we even talking about this? Is Hudson equal to Vazquez? OF COURSE not. The pitching staff is diminished. SIGNIFICANTLY diminished. This was strictly money talking. This was not a baseball decision. So long as people keep “believing” and “hoping” and loving their Braves, the team will do this kind of thing. If you own a team and you can make more money while spending less money, you do it. My personal attitude is that most of the Braves fans are saps.
Sonny Clusters
February 1st, 2010
8:52 pm
Well, we was thinking the pitching is going to be okay and the Buck Commanders are going to be the weak link. Yeah, one has gone to Arizona but they is still one stuck at third base and he will recruit a new one once they get to Spring Training. We was thinking it might be somebody new to the team like Melky. Then again, it could be somebody that’s been around for awhile and needs friends. That would probably be Diaz. Once they become Buck Commanders they are in a secret society and have to learn the secret handshake. A lot of thumbs have been hurt with that handshake. Beware.
Skeezix
February 1st, 2010
9:47 pm
Mark: The starting pitching with Huddy, JJ and Tommy Gun should be solid–the BP and offense still remain a concern though. However, to really improve this team over the long run, there is one more move the Braves need to make before the season starts—GET RID OF WREN!!
murray
February 1st, 2010
9:49 pm
Mr. Bradley, maybe you can convince your readers that the Braves should trade Nate McLouth so they can free up salary room to sign Russell Branyan or Jonny Gomes. McLouth has never had a season as productive as the ones they had last year either.
Or you could compare Hudson’s last four years to Vazquez’s last four and realize Frank Wren “sold high”. I wish we still had Javy too…but your logic is faulty.
Reid Adair
February 1st, 2010
10:03 pm
Like most of the folks who have commented, I am more concerned about the offense (or rather, the lack thereof) on a daily basis than I am how Tim Hudson will perform every fifth game.
stew
February 1st, 2010
10:31 pm
Hopefully, Teheran, Viscaino, Delgado, and Kimbrel will be able to make the jump in 2011 or 2012 along with Freddie and maybe Cody (assuming injury prone Jason pans out). Problem is replacing Chipster with whom? We didn’t necessarily need a righty first baseman, but rather a righty leftfielder with pop (aka Ryan Braun). Therein lies the problem Melky’s left-handed and Diaz is a punch and judy with no fielding ability. Jason, Melky, Nate, Freddie, and Mac swing from the left side. Glaus is just a stopgap and Chip just astopgap to whom? Believe it or not, I would have loved to see Andruw revive his career with us. i still don’t understand how a ten-time gold glove winner has to play second fiddle to Byrd and Hamilton in Texas. Have his defensive skills deteriorated so quickly? He was on his way to the Hall of Fame. He was our righty power bat and it didn’t matter much who was in left. He had 351 rbis his last three years with us and we let him walk. It’s a shame. He was probably the greatest position in Braves history and we made him walk.
paulie
February 1st, 2010
11:14 pm
The braves have a nice rotation,but it will tough beating the Phillies without a lefty starter.Hopefully we can keep it close and let Wagner come in to close it out against their big bats.
Coach (2011 or Bust)
February 2nd, 2010
1:02 am
Responding to Mark Bradley’s brain fart at 4:41 p.m.
Bradley’s quote: As a Brave, Hudson has never had as good a season as Vazquez did in 2009. Hudson was 16-10 in 2007, but his ERA was 3.33 and he had 132 strikeouts. That’s not a “lie.” That’s the fact, Jack.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
Back in 2003 Tim Hudson went 16-7 with an ERA of 2.70 while making 34 starts, and nailing down an inhuman 27 quality starts. Not to mention logging 240 innings and 162 K’s.
Them’s the facts…..Jack!
Conyers Braves Fan
February 2nd, 2010
4:10 am
Enter your comments here
Conyers Yellow Jacket
February 2nd, 2010
4:15 am
Mark: In one post, a quote from Bobby Cox was that Hudson is still young. Do you consider
35 being “young” for a baseball player or any athlete for that matter.
I like Bobby but just don`t understand why he always tells us that EVERY player is good or great regardless of their performance on the field.
Robert 1-U
February 2nd, 2010
7:43 am
There were more than several great games he had that the bullpen torched…so wake up and look at reality…his record could be so much more impressive than it is. It wasn’t as though that he “stunk up the joint”
38YrBravesFan
February 2nd, 2010
7:47 am
The rotation is fine. Bullpen is probably decent. The lack of bats i.e., runs is what worries me.
16 Days!
GO BRAVES!!
Roll Tider
February 2nd, 2010
8:40 am
Coach apparently overlooked the preface, “As a Brave”…
Rio Bravo
February 2nd, 2010
8:45 am
This will be a interesting season. I thought Vazquez had “Stopper” qualities last year. Im not sure who does this year. I do think JJ,Hansen, Huddy and Lowe could all show “top of the rotation” qualities this year. Maybe KK will have a few runs scored behind him this season.
Bill
February 2nd, 2010
8:57 am
Coach, you can’t stump Mark! “as a Brave”. Thats the fact….. Jack!
Go Roll tider………………..
Jim H.
February 2nd, 2010
9:18 am
I’m sorry they had to get rid of Vazquez too, but we aint the Yankees, so Wren had to do the best he could with the payroll level he has to work with. Also there is no guarantee Vazquez will ever match his ’09 season again (where he performed significantly better than his career numbers). I’m betting that Hudson pitches better than Vazquez this season and for the long term.
Fillin' up @ Juniors
February 2nd, 2010
9:31 am
This annoys me. Writers who write as if now is the only thing that is taken into account when doing trades. That trade was about budget and prospects. I don’t like the trade one bite. I hated the trade, but I also recognize we won’t be able to judge it until those prospect pieces come into place in 2012. We have the talent to compete with or without javy, avoid injuries and we got a shot, thats all you can ask for in preseason.
Bill Stanfill
February 2nd, 2010
9:34 am
No matter how you slice it, this has off-season has been a disappointing one for the Braves. If Bradley is correct and they have netted 5 million dollars from the off-season moves, they could have used that 5 and added another 5 or so, kept Vasquez and added another bat. With Glaus, they’re trying to get by on the cheap. And the odds are that they won’t come anywhere close to competing with Philly.
Don
February 2nd, 2010
10:13 am
Don’t be critical of the Braves run production. It is great considering some things that Bobby Cox does NOT UNDERSTAND. Do you think that someone might EXPLAIN TO BOBBY COX these NEW and UNIQUE SIMPLE CONCEPTS ABOUT BASEBALL – that he still has not learned after 20 years:
(1) That you actually do not have to keep one of your regulars in the lineup for months just because you like him – if he cannot perform and you have a far better player on the bench.
(2) That baseball rules actually do not require that you keep your hitters in the same order in the batting order game after game. You can actually move them up and down in the order based on who is hot and who is not.
(3) That the manager can actually teach, emphasize, demand that his hitters work the count, be selective, make the opposing pither thow some pitches – to enable the hitters to see what the pitcher has, adjust to his pitches, get better pitches to hit, make him make mistakes, wear him down both within innings and for the game, get into the teams weak middle relief pitchers etc.
(4) That if your 3rd place hitter has been a star but is now in a prolonged slump, the manager does not have to have his permission to move him down in the batting order. He can actually do this anytime he wants.
(5 That some managers actually make adjustments in their lineup and in their batting order based on which players do great or terrible against certain opposing pitchers.
(6) That some managers actually do things to put pressure on the opposing pitcher in key situations.
(7) That it is not against the rules – and that some managers actually do things to generate run production – other than making out the lineup, being a cheerleader, and waiting for the 3 run homer.
I REALIZE THAT THESE WOULD BE STRANGE AND UNIQUES IDEAS THAT HAVE NOT YET OCCURRED TO BOBBY COX IN HIS 20 PLUS YEARS OF MANAGING — But do you think there is any chance he might try a couple of them in his final year?
bvillebaron
February 2nd, 2010
10:28 am
To Bradley, Greg and the other misinformed around here, Hudson has been a better pitcher throughout his career than Javier “Career Year” Vazquez. Let me throw a few statistics at you Mr. Bradly and the other doom and gloomers:
Hudson’s career record is 148-78 and his record with the Braves is 56-39. His career ERA is 3.48 (which includes pitching 6 years in the AL) and his career WHIP is 1.26.
Vazquez’s career record is 142-139. His career ERA is 4.20 and career WHIP is 1.25.
Hudson’s ERAs during his tenure with the Braves are 3.52; 4.86; 3.33; 3.17 and 3.61. (Other than 2006 Mr. Bradely, that doesn’t sound like a pitcher who is quite hittable to me). Vazquez’s ERAs during that same time span are 4.44;4.82;3.74;4.67 and 2.87. (By contrast that sounds like a pithcer who, other than last year, was quite hittable).
Hudson has had an ERA of over 4 only TWICE in his career, 2006 with the Braves at 4.86 and his second season with the As when it was slightly over 4. Vazquez has had ERAs of over 4 (including one over 5 and one of 6) SEVEN times in his 12 year career.
Vazquez was taken out of the rotation by the White Sox during the stretch run in 2008 because Guillen lost confidence in his ability to pitch in the big games and traded him that offseason for just that reason. Hudson is regarded as a bulldog whose number is always called for the big games.
Don’t get me wrong; I hope Vazquez reduplicates the season he had last year with the Braves this year with the Yankees (his career numbers suggest otherwise however). But please stop with this nonsense about Vazquez being the Braves best pitcher and staff “ace” based upon one year. If one of the pitchers had to go and Lowe wasn’t tradeable, I for one think Hudson is a better pick than Vazquez on merit alone. When you factor in that Vazquez becomes a free agent at the end of this year and the Braves would have gotten NOTHING in return if they did not re-sign Hudson, it is an absolute no brainer.
Don
February 2nd, 2010
10:29 am
A man went into a bar in Atlanta, and the bartender was a robot. Robot asked the man for his IQ. Man replied – about 160. The Robot proceded to discuss Theory of Relativity, latest medical breakthroughs etc.
Man left and decided to try it again. This time, when asked, he told the Robot that is IQ was about 100. The Robot then proceded to talk about NASCAR, latest baseball scores etc.
Man again left and decided he would try it one more time. This time he told the Robot that is IQ was about 50 – And the Robot said -
DO YOU PEOPLE STILL THINK THAT BOBBY COX IS A GOOD MANAGER.
papadawg
February 2nd, 2010
10:38 am
Huddy is NO VASQUEZ. The Braves are just playing cheap again which in turn gives us a cheap wanna be contenders
bvillebaron
February 2nd, 2010
11:04 am
papadawg:
You are right: Huddy is no Vazquez, he’s better. See above.
Navigator
February 2nd, 2010
11:43 am
I like to think of this year as a wasted year, getting rid of Cox and then when the talentless Braves fall further in the future, the writers can say, “See Cox was the reason the Braves won so many pennants”. Not that they had the best pitching staff in the modern era.
Benjamin
February 2nd, 2010
11:59 am
Cecil34
February 1st, 2010
4:29 pm
When is the last time that you heard Cox say “this player is a piece of trash and washed up to boot! Hasn’t been healthy for years and doesn’t produce!”
Exactly – his opinions have no credibility…..
—–
Other than Ozzie Guillen — who, ironically, once said similar things about Javy Vaz — there aren’t many managers who HAVE said such things about their own, Cecil. Further, I’m not sure that I’d want to play for a manager who did say such things…
We got the short end of the stick with a proven contender — the defending and (I believe) 28 time world champion Yankees — in that deal, no doubt, but I don’t fault Bobby for it. He is who he is, and I think the guys will really be pushing to send him out a winner this year if they can. Time will tell.
Benjamin
February 2nd, 2010
12:01 pm
Why are people talking about Bobby Cox as if he were Russ Nixon?
The Braves wouldn’t have been the Braves of the 1990s and 2000s if it weren’t for that man. He played an integral part of building the franchise as both a GM and then incubating the kids as a manager.
What do you people want from the guy?
Braves 2010
February 2nd, 2010
1:00 pm
I think a lot of braves fans need to get over it. We have very solid players and yes, some of them are just back from injury. That happens to every team and yes they do play the next year. Gosh, just because a player is injured does not mean their terminal.
Gloss will do great at 1st base and can sub for 3rd which is where the real problem lies truth be told. Chipper should have hung it up three years ago. We have Heyward waiting in the wings and there is nothing wrong with Schafer anymore either. I bet he tears up that ball in spring training like he did last year before he broke the wrist. Yes another injury and most of you wanted to dump him in the street. Its a broken wrist and Gloss is a good player. Really good.
Why not give the braves players a chance to start winning games before you start to dump all over them. No we didnt get Jason Bay whos defense is terrible but yea he can hit. Big deal, they also over paid and the contract length is terrible. They will live to regreat that long term move. You though will be saying, “glad its not us” even though a lot of you were drooling over maybe getting him on our team.
Just let the braves start out the season and play and see what happens. They will hit, run and yes compete. They will be on top again. Have some faith.
GMR
February 2nd, 2010
1:01 pm
The move to trade Vasquez wasn’t strange at all – it was a pure salary dump. They would have prefered to trade Lowe but there were no takers for his big salary. Wren was dealing from a position of weakness again brought on by the type of cost cutting going on across corporate America. Things won’t change until the Braves get a real owner. Until then we will all be expected to believe in miracle recoveries from injury, unprecedented improvements in form, and fantasy trades that will never happen. The words “pig” and “flying” spring to mind.
jj_pr
February 2nd, 2010
1:18 pm
i just want to see tommy pitch again!! i think he can develop into a kind of unique combination of Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux type of pitcher. Maybe I’m being too confident about his future but he has the strong stuff from Johnson and the “cold” way from Maddux to approach hitters. Yet I think he can work on his control because “which pitcher doesn’t?” … Anyways, in terms of hitting I’m expecting a LOT from Chipper this year. He’s a former MVP and still has the heart of a champion so I’m sure he will bounce back with at least 300+ batting average, 90+ RBI, 20 HR. Maybe yes, McCann will have to produce a lot and obviously Yunel Escobar will have to step up as a future All-Star. I don’t know what to think about Troy Glaus. He used to be my second favorite third baseman (first was Chipper of course) and I really want him to produce at a high level but I don’t see him having the year that maybe I expect more from Tim Hudson. I see Hudson to have more chances of having a comeback season than Troy. Anyways… I still think that we can make some noise in the division. Go Braves!!
Bernard
February 2nd, 2010
1:56 pm
bobby cox and frank wren are delusional, overrated and both should RETIRE or be fired. Baseball champion has become “best” team that money can buy???? BBBBORing!!!!!
coach joe
February 2nd, 2010
1:58 pm
Braves fans are hard to please..Spring Training hasn’t even started and many are writing the Braves off.. Hey if the SAINTS can go to the Super Bowl, anything can happen.
GO SAINTS!!! GO BRAVES!!!
jmarable
February 2nd, 2010
3:15 pm
we’re not writting them off joe,they r doing that themselves.they put saving money over winning.to pretty much give your ace away,not add any outfield punch after the yr we had powerles,no speed ,old has been players to band aid our issues.COME ON MAN.u know this team cant stack up with the phillies or mets.or marlins now.u relize we gotta face holiday and santana all yr.Come on man.u know u can stick a fork in us,were done.
bvillebaron
February 2nd, 2010
3:20 pm
jmarble:
If you don’t like the fact that the Braves operate under financial constraints, start rooting for the Yankees, Red Sox or even the Phillies for that matter ($145M payroll vs $95M for the Braves).
Milk Carton
February 2nd, 2010
3:59 pm
Have you seen Mark Bradley. Where are you at Mark. You have spoiled us with multiple posts every day
Dunwoodybrave
February 2nd, 2010
4:02 pm
On an unrelated note, I’d like to thank all of the fat, middle-age men who showed up THREE HOURS early for the “Meet the Braves” event out in the middle of nowheresville, Cobb County yesterday. So that when dads like me picked their kids up from school and got there at 5 pm, there were already 1500 people in line — with a bunch of beer-gutted men wearing Braves replica jerseys holding armfuls of bats, caps and gloves to get autographed by Chipper.
So many that when they shut the event down at 6:30, there were hundreds of fans–mostly grade-school kids–who were turned away. There’s nothing that says LOSER as much as a 45-year-old, 220-pound man in a SMOLTZ jersey rushing to sell his autographed swag on EBay while little kids leave crying because they didn’t get to meet Chipper and Huddie.
Yo
February 2nd, 2010
4:47 pm
You are correct in saying that Vazquez would likely leave (so Braves get maybe draft pick compensation), and Hudson is cheaper.
However, Vazquez had a career year last year. He was no lock to repeat. The Braves traded him while his value was an all time high. Had he had a down year next year, and the Braves let him walk without getting compensation…well, you can finish that thought.
The analysis of the trade here is shallow. You make it sound like Vazquez for Melky, straight up, salary dump. You fail to mention that the Braves got a legit top-100 prospect Arodys Vizcaino (Yanks’ top pitching prospect) and a young lefty reliever with a great arm.
Navajoe
February 2nd, 2010
5:04 pm
Hey people, it was the inept front office that put Vasquez at risk by signing a has been Lowe to a lucrative contract. It’s not one thing, but cumulative decisions that has an overpaid Jones and Lowe. As far as Cox, he bungled a championship run with Toronto, then came to the Braves and blew up the series with Minnesota, twice against the Yankees (and Joe Torre), let his old assistant come back and out manage him with Toronto and win that series. He is not a great manager, just a good builder and that is why he lost out on 5 of 6 world series championships (4 with Braves, 1 with Toronto – Don’t forget he had 2 – 0 lead in 3 game series with and personally made decisions that cost Toronto 2 of the next 3 games). Kiss his fanny if you want, but if we had a great manager during the Braves run they would have won 3 not 1.
crackbaby
February 2nd, 2010
5:22 pm
KK was tough at times. I think he developed arm problems but didn’t let on. He beat Halladay face to face when Roy was the league diva. KK is probably good enough to win 8 to 10 games in the five spot.
Really gonna miss Javi.
Wish we could have kept Soriano.
How are we going to score enough runs this year?
jmarable
February 2nd, 2010
7:57 pm
bvillebaron Uknow most fans dont care about teams saving money when hot dogs r 5 bucks and a beer is ten.if we spend money to watch,they shoulD spend money to win.i wanna root for the team where i live[ATL]IT’S entertainment dude,at least give us a chance.U know this lineup sucks,or u dont know baseball.we cant steal a base.need to string 2gether how many hits for a run.no boppers in the outfield.we will B lucky if we get a 300 hitter.COME ON MAN
Ken Stallings
February 2nd, 2010
10:28 pm
Vasquez as the number one starter?
On paper perhaps. But baseball is a moving target, not history. If Vasquez had returned he might possibly have ended the season as the third best pitcher of a dominant rotation. Entirely logical that Tommy Hanson will end up the ace of the staff with Hudson a close second.
I would have rather we traded Derreck Lowe, but the rest of baseball saw it the same way I did — no shock there, it was an easy analysis. Vasquez was the prize everyone with means wanted. I just thought we should have gotten more for him than we did.
A rotation as the Braves will have next year is likely to be the team’s prime strength once again. One just hopes the starting lineup adds the depth of offense needed to support the pitchers.
Ken Stallings
February 2nd, 2010
10:38 pm
Coach (2011 or Bust); in 2003, Hudson pitched for the Oakland A’s — not the Atlanta Braves. Bradley’s point was accurate. In 2007, Hudson won 16 games (his best as a Brave) but his ERA was 3.33.
Don
February 3rd, 2010
9:00 am
Pitching is the name of the game; and yes, our pitching should be good. Problem is, it is not great enough to win with Bobby Cox managing. The way you win with Cox managing is (and has always been) to have pitching so outstanding, so far far superior to the other teams that it overcomes his management procedures and lack thereof and enables you to win the Division over the long 162 game reguar season sechedule – in spite of him. It is not accident that Cox’s Braves won only 1 WS in 14 Post Season oppotunities – in the short series environment – where the pitching could not overcome his management. Although our pitching should be good, it is not going to be great enough this year to compensate for Cox. The slim chance for this is gone with Vazquez. Cox does not understand the most simple and basic funcamentals and essentials for winning.
bvillebaron
February 3rd, 2010
9:51 am
jmarable:
I don’t care about the Braves saving money either and wished they had the same money to spend which they did when Ted owned the team. Unfortunately, the fact is that Liberty is only willing to permit Wren to spend $90M to $95M. As they say these days “it is what is, man”.
Certainly, the Braves’ lineup doesn’t compare to the Phillies, but it doesn’t “suck”. I also realize I don’t know baseball like you, but I think good pitching almost always beats good hitting. I watched a piece on the MLB network about the 1995 season the other night. Maybe you ought to take a look at it too. Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, etc. shut down the Indians who had a monster lineup which I think set a then record for runs scored and included Kenny Lofton, Albert Belle, Jim Thome and Manny Ramirez in their primes.
The Braves still have the best rotation in the NL East and, if healthy, a very strong bullpen. That means they will contend this year, at least for the wild card.
jmarable
February 3rd, 2010
12:10 pm
ok bvillebaron.we got some ok pitching i give u that.but u got 2 score runs to win.im just saying with our division adding great pitching to there linup this yr,we have 2 string 2gether 2many hits to win consistently.no playoff or wild card man .sorry.unless we add some pop or some speed.yea we did shut down the indians i saw that.i just feel we arent gonna score runs this yr.not with this band aid line up.outfield is awful.
Jim
February 3rd, 2010
2:54 pm
The past is the past…forget it.
The question is, What have you done or me lately?
Yes Chipper won the batting in title, but what did it do for the team, not muc for rbi’s and such
only for him in his HOF quest. Cox hasn’t learn “short ball” he still waits for the 3 run homer.
Wren hasn’t been given thge chance or money to get what the team needs..
I say start a fire sale and clean house, keep the youingsters and build thbis year and go for it
in 2011.
oh yea, charge the players for use on the training room, maybe theywill play through the hand nails
Pal Joey
February 3rd, 2010
11:19 pm
We have been hoodwinked so often over the last four years, I don’t get too excited about this team. If Chipper could again find his groove (and given his age, that is a large IF), if the starters live up to their billing, If Glaus suddenly finds his home run stroke, If we get some power in the outfield, if the bullpen is a pleasant surprise, then maybe, just maybe, we could challenge Philadelphia in the division. But there are so many “ifs”, it is hard to be excited about 2010. We can hope, but it just may be we will have wait till 2011 when we hopefully have a new manager who will play small ball if he doesn’t have the bats. That won’t happen so long as Bobby is manager. He is affected with the Earl Weaver mindset and only plays for the big inning. Over the past few years I have learned not to expect too much from the team, and they have done little to change that assessment.
Don
February 4th, 2010
10:00 am
Pal Joey, good points – but you left out the biggest “IF” of all — IF Bobby Cox could suddenly understand and practice just the very most simple procedures and basic fundamentals for winning – that every good manager in all levels of baseball from Little League to High School to College to Semi Pro to Minor League to the Majors – uses.
Don
February 4th, 2010
10:08 am
I realize that TBS will no longer carry baseball full time. But is it true – that with Bobby Cox managing, they are going to carry all of the Braves games in 2010 – as a “Comedy Show”?
Don
February 4th, 2010
10:10 am
The AJC should start a weekly contest for fans for “Selecting Bobby Cox’s Biggest Blunder For The Week”. On second thought, that would be too many blunders to select from – it should be a daily contest.
bvillebaron
February 4th, 2010
11:58 am
Pal Joey:
I agree with your thoughts about Bobby Cox, but the starting rotation is not an “if” unless of course you include if they don’t get hurt. However, that’s an “if” for all teams, most of which don’t have a rotation as good as the Braves.
cookieman
February 4th, 2010
8:10 pm
LAST !
Tweets that mention Now subbing for Javier Vazquez, the rejuvenated Tim Hudson | Mark Bradley -- Topsy.com
February 5th, 2010
8:58 am
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Mark Bradley, Melissa Snow. Melissa Snow said: Now subbing for Javier Vazquez, a rejuvenated Tim Hudson: Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) Because Tim Hudson h… http://bit.ly/bS1pY9 [...]
Robert
February 6th, 2010
2:29 pm
“On the first day of February and Camp Roger, Bobby Cox called Tim Hudson “kind of the forgotten man.”
Cox forgot Hudson’s name. This is news?
Robert
February 6th, 2010
2:30 pm
“The AJC should start a weekly contest for fans for “Selecting Bobby Cox’s Biggest Blunder For The Week”. On second thought, that would be too many blunders to select from – it should be a daily contest”
Don – if they fined Cox $1 for every mistake he makes, we could sign Pujols, Sabathia, and ARod by next week
Robert
February 6th, 2010
2:40 pm
Here’s a beaut of a Cox quote
““He’s virtually skipping Triple-A if he makes the team,” manager Bobby Cox said of Heyward, who had three late-season games at Gwinnett. “
Strictly speaking, it’s a true statement. But :
A) It’s said in a way that sounds dumb, and
B) Why state the obvious? I mean, it’s like me saying “If I cross the street, I’ll be on the other side” – DUH!!!
This is the kind of “words of wisdom” that Cox has at his disposal to impart.
It’s gonna be a long season. At least we will know that are mathematically eliminated from winning the World Series on the day Cox shows up at Disney
Robert
February 6th, 2010
2:43 pm
“Vazquez in 2008 was the blind squirrel finding an acorn.”
No. Vasquez in 2008 was a good pitcher having a career year.
Cox winning the World Series in 1995 was a blind squirrel finding an acorn. With the help of three HOF starting pitchers and an idiot opposing manager.
Stumpknocker
February 7th, 2010
8:11 pm
As I have stated many times before, out of 5 world series Cox was seriously out-managed in 4. It is true that the blind squirrel finds an acorn ocasionally.
Don
February 8th, 2010
9:10 am
Remember that in 14 Post Season opportunities, this blind squirrel (Cox) almost didn’t even find the acorn in 1995 — It required Glavine pitching a shutout in the final game.
Don
February 8th, 2010
9:13 am
In over 60 years of dealing with baseball (player, coach, manager, fan), the most amazing thing that I have seen is the AJC writers ignoring Bobby Cox’s continuous obvious blunders and violations of even the most simple basics and fundamentals of winning.
Bradley's Buzz: ESPN's Buster doesn't love Braves' rotation | Mark Bradley
February 9th, 2010
11:31 am
[...] We keep hearing that the Braves’ rotation will be just as good without the man who finished fourth in the National League Cy Young voting in 2009. The (thin) reasoning: That Javier Vazquez was unlikely to have such a season again, but that Tim Hudson — who underwent Tommy John surgery in 2008 and who has won two games since — will absolutely return to top-of-the-rotation form. This, I say again, assumes a lot. [...]