The Hawks gaze at the Thunder, see their younger selves
A rare sight: Marvin gets assertive (AJC photo by Phil Skinner)
Even in losing, the Hawks felt flattered. What they’ve done is what Oklahoma City is endeavoring to do. “A mirror of our team,” Mike Woodson said afterward, and when was the last time anyone else in the NBA regarded the local franchise as anything to be emulated?
Not many teams can match talent with the Hawks. The Thunder did it Monday and left a three-point winner. “That’s a great young team over there,” said the ancient Josh Smith, who’s all of 24 and who nearly generated a triple double. “They’ve been able to have a lottery pick and get a marquee guy every year.”
The past three Thunder drafts (the first coming when it was based in Seattle): Landed Kevin Durant with the second overall pick in 2007 and traded for Jeff Green, who was the fifth pick; drafted Russell Westbrook with the fourth overall pick in 2008; drafted James Harden with the third overall pick in 2009. They have 12 first-rounders on the roster, six of them lottery picks.
The Hawks likewise boast six lottery picks. And if it weren’t for the improvement shown here these past few years, Oklahoma City might well be charting a different course. “People are starting to copy that model, instead of panicking,” Woodson said, speaking before Monday’s MLK Day matinee. “I think more teams will do it.”
The idea: Accumulate young talent and hope it coalesces. The Chicago Bulls tried — at one point they had Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler and Brad Miller and Ron Artest under contract — but got antsy and started dumping players. Said Woodson: “They were spoiled [from the Jordan Era]. They didn’t have the patience to wait.”
It took the Hawks four seasons from the drafting of the Joshes — Childress and Smith — to make the playoffs, a fifth to finish above .500. But the team that went forever without winning awoke Monday atop the NBA Southeast, and the Hawks’ method has opened eyes across the league. Both Oklahoma City and Portland are trying the build-with-youth method, and it’s working even faster both places.
Woodson: “It wasn’t easy, man. I took a lot of shots [many from this correspondent] … We had our bumps along the way, but we’re winning now, and a lot of that has to do with the fact we held our core together.”
Well, yes. For acquiring so many good players, Billy Knight deserves credit in absentia. (He resigned as GM in 2008.) But watching the Thunder trip the Hawks, an old feeling came rushing back. With the second pick in the 2007 draft, the Thunder (then the Sonics) took Kevin Durant, who’s one of the 10 best players in the sport. With the second pick in the 2005 draft, Knight chose Marvin Williams, who’s of the 10 best players on his team.
“We always got smacked in the face for not drafting [Chris] Paul,” Woodson said, but it’s the whiff that keeps on missing. Even with a new contract, Williams remains inessential. He’s averaging 10.4 points and 5.1 rebounds, both marking significant sags off last season’s yield. On Monday he played 21 minutes, scored seven points, took two rebounds and managed no assists. (Durant: 29 points, five rebounds, five assists.)
Durant was the difference Monday even when he didn’t touch the ball. The Hawks keyed on denying him an inbounds play with 19 seconds left, but Green took the ball at the top of the key and got Smith leaning and drove for the clinching dunk. Not many people dunk on Josh Smith, but Green did it with vigor.
Said Al Horford, drafted one spot after Durant in 2007: “They’re definitely as athletic and as talented as we are.”
And this day the Thunder was a tad hungrier. “They play hard,” said Crawford, who took almost the same shot to tie Monday as he’d hit to beat Phoenix on Friday but saw this one roll off. “They compete.”
Here he smiled. “It’s like looking at the Hawks of a couple of years ago.”
That brought some consolation. If other folks are doing as the Hawks did, it means what the Hawks did is working.
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86 comments Add your comment
JSS
January 19th, 2010
1:24 am
Mark Bradley…
Go to bed!!!
Hard to believe I grew up watching “Firing Line” and “Wall Street Week!”
Stop whining about JJ’s minutes, he plays LeBron and Kobe minutes… Look it up, the difference is minuscule… And Crawford is not his backup, he is our floater at the 6th man…
BirdDawg
January 19th, 2010
1:30 am
The thing about emulation is that it often produces a product better than the original. Same case here. The Thunder is a hungrier, better coached version of the Hawks. I’m hard pressed to say that they are as talented as the Hawks, but they are definitely as athletic. With a better coach, the sky is the limit for this team. Just hope Sund acts before the window of opportunity for this team closes.
Jesse
January 19th, 2010
2:51 am
I don’t think abruptly changing coaches is what we need, at least not yet. Let’s see how this season plays out first. This is one game guys.
Dr. Warren
January 19th, 2010
3:24 am
I can’t believe there is talk of changing coaches for a team that, mid-season, is tied for the 5th-best record in a 30-team league. It’s not like the Hawks are the S.D. Chargers, a team that has been outstanding for many years now but chokes in the playoffs. Let’s give Woody a chance to continue his upward curve. I’ve been a critic of his as much as anybody, but jeez, he must be doing many things right.
Gray Mule
January 19th, 2010
6:17 am
Two things cost us. Fix either one and Atlanta wins game.
(1) Sleepwalk – - Going 1-10 in the 4th quarter – Thats 10%.
This is a perfect example of sleepwalk.
(2) Missed free throws. Hawks missed 6 free throws – Lost game by 3 points.
Fix either problem and Hawks win.
Gray Mule
Retired hoops coach
January 19th, 2010
7:20 am
Mark,
Would you agree that this game spotlighted Bibby’s defensive liabilities? That is one reason why JJ played so manny minutes. Crawford had to sub for MB after the Thunder continually posted mis-match on Bibby early in 3rd qt. Bibby does many good things and has been important in Hawks development, but he cannot defend the quick or the big point guards. this creates numerous problems for Woody. Keep up the great basketball writing. I still say you are the only sportswriter the AJC has employed who understands the game. I guess it is the Ky upbringing.
Mark Bradley
January 19th, 2010
8:11 am
There’s no talk of a coaching change, Dr. Warren. Except here.
anyboby could have done better
January 19th, 2010
8:15 am
Sheldon Williams…lottery and gone…Marvin Williams…# 2 pick and very average…never will be a star…Horford…great pick…Josh Smith…5 years to become really good…as horrible as this team was for so long anyone could have drafted as good or better than this management team….they deserve no credit for nothing.
But if you had done better
January 19th, 2010
8:33 am
Perversely, if the Hawks had made better choices with their lottery picks, they would have had better records and then would not have kept getting more lottery picks. Perhaps Billy Knight knew what he was doing.
Shonuff
January 19th, 2010
8:46 am
The Hawks will never win an NBA title because of there inconsistency on the defensive end. They will also always be haunted by the pick they didn’t make. (Chris Paul) With Paul, I’m not sure how much defense would need to be played because they could simply outscore everyone…also, with Chris Paul, it would turn Josh Smith into a Mega-star, no doubt.
BirdDawg
January 19th, 2010
9:13 am
Of course Woodson has improved with this team each year, there is too much talent not too, but that doesn’t make him a great coach, a good guy maybe, but not a good coach. This team has improved in spite of Woodson, not because of him. His abject refusal to employ an offense and develop younger players is the proof in the pudding. Sure, they have the 5th best record in a 30 team leage, but they are arguably the second most talented team in the league behind the Lakers and they are nowhere near that level. Where do you think this team would be if Phil Jackson were coaching them? This isn’t based on one game, or even this season, look at Woodson’s entire body of work with the Hawks. They have the same shortcomings now as they did when they were losing 69 games (i.e. mental lapses, lack of effort, too much one-on-one in crunch time) the difference is this team is more mature, experienced and familiar with each other. It’s called natural progression, not coaching prowess.
Sautee
January 19th, 2010
9:17 am
I said in the offseason that Al and Josh were ready for a larger role and that to deny them was asking for chemistry problems. We’ll see as the season progresses if I was right. Already, after the Magic game, Al said publicly that he was surprised to not get the ball more (He was 6-7 that game).
And now here’s Josh: “We should have kept going inside-out,” Smith said. “It would have opened up the 3-point shot.”
Are the guards listening? Are the coaches?
Shonuff
January 19th, 2010
10:09 am
Good point Sautee…I’ve been surprised in the improvement of Josh Smith’s game this year. I saw him hit a half hook from the post a few games ago that I don’t think he would have even tried in the past
Dan the Nerd
January 19th, 2010
10:31 am
During the 4th quarter the Hawks would have been better off sitting Joe and bringing in Mario. The way Joe is shooting there would not have been a dropoff in offense and Mario is much better defensively.
Poor Joe. He wants to be the man, he just isn’t.
Keep It Real
January 19th, 2010
11:05 am
JOSH played like straight GARBAGE last night. NO DEFENSE at all, WOODY should have taken him out and put in WEST. A few times JOSH was just watching the ball on the OFFENSIVE boards no hustle at all, maybe he needs to take a few lessons from WEST.
The game was close for 4 QTR so it’s impossible for them to think they were going to go on a run late in the 4th QTR. WOODY come on dude, can you draw up a play with some ball movement and picks to free BIBBY or CRAWFORD up for a last minute shot.
At times the Hawks play like a high school team, you never know whats going to happen. It’s almost like, they try to find the player with the hot hand and thats how the game will go.
Mark Bradley
January 19th, 2010
11:08 am
Josh played like garbage? I thought he played great — 18 points, 12 rebounds, seven assists, three blocks.
dap01
January 19th, 2010
11:11 am
Joe is a great player but his motives do not seem to put “team” first. Woody seems more interested in satisfying Joe than doing what is best for the Hawks.
ISO is not the answer!
dap01
January 19th, 2010
11:16 am
Woody, rest JJ more. He is looking tired. We need him to be sharp in the playoffs, not worn down.
Tuesday Bolts – 1.19.10 | Daily Thunder.com
January 19th, 2010
11:27 am
[...] A nice piece from the AJC comparing the Thunder and Hawks: ”Even in losing, the Hawks felt flattered. What they’ve done is what Oklahoma City is endeavoring to do. “A mirror of our team,” Mike Woodson said afterward, and when was the last time anyone else in the NBA regarded the local franchise as anything to be emulated? Not many teams can match talent with the Hawks. The Thunder did it Monday and left a three-point winner.” [...]
Senator Blutarski
January 19th, 2010
11:28 am
Anytime the Hawks get back to energetic defense and rebounding, and then making the extra pass on offense, they’re extremely hard to beat.
Hawks73
January 19th, 2010
11:51 am
Hawks are again still in the maturation process as shown in yesterday’s loss. I realize they can’t win every game, but my biggest concern with this team is the apparent apathy at times when the opponent is less than glamorous. They forget or just choose to put it on auto-pilot at times and think that they can just “turn it on” when they want. I wish they could somehow harness the sense of urgency and realize that effort on defense will always overshadow poor shooting.
joel.m
January 19th, 2010
12:07 pm
drive and dish hawks, enough of the jump shots, watching joe pound the ball.its really getting old.cut 2 the basket guys instead of watching joe dribble.
hawkfan
January 19th, 2010
12:12 pm
The Hawks really struggle in the half court offense. They are stagnant, unimaginative, and predictable. Id like to see more pick-n-rolls up top and more dribble penetration to open up shooters. As much as I love his clutch shooting, Bibby cannot really provide in these areas b/c he does not have the quickness to do it. I think the Hawks would really improve in the half-court game if they can develop Teague and take advantage of his speed and quickness. They should really work on his outside shooting and consider making him the starter over Bibby for next season. We would still have Bibby to work with the second unit and also to mentor Teague during the transition.
joel.m
January 19th, 2010
12:19 pm
i agree with hawk fan.other teams know bibby cant take them off the dribble,which makes us jump shot happy.if we penertrated a little more it would open things up.teague can do that.come on woody make us a quicker club sometimes.dont let bibby hog all the min,because of a three point jump shot.plus teague is quicker on the defensive end.we need to go down low to horford more.and cut to the basket.we just stand around on offense like nobodies business.its old real old.
Section 108
January 19th, 2010
12:25 pm
“With the second pick in the 2007 draft, the Thunder (then the Sonics) took Kevin Durant, who’s one of the 10 best players in the sport. With the second pick in the 2005 draft, Knight chose Marvin Williams, who’s of the 10 best players on his team.” This is cute, Mark, and humorous but in all fairness Marvin is being retained for his defensive prowess. The Thunder’s starters are more effective than the Hawks starters at at least 4 positions so it’s not a fair comparison. That game was the perfect gauge for the Hawks to assess where they stand and what they need to improve upon. The Hawks are not as deep as the Celtics or Cavs so they have to play mistake free basketball in order to ascend to elite status.
Miss Horford
January 19th, 2010
12:56 pm
Yesterday’s loss should not have come down to the last minute shots. The Hawks as a whole played sloppy and sluggish. They acted afraid to go into the paint with a strong shot. They wanted to run in quick and did not focus on the accuracy of the shot. I know that they seemed to praise Josh on the TV, but I thought that he did not have a very good handle on the ball…as with many nights. He turned over the ball lots and missed many easy layups. He did not flop in the end though….so maybe it is improvement? I thought that Horford could have played more intense the whole game. Crawford does not need to let the winning or losing of the game depend on his lot second shot. No one needs to put the whole teams crap shoot on them. It was not his fault for the loss. We just need to pick ourselves up and keep going….no more stupid losses until we actually play a team that deserves for us to give it to them. We played inferior to them the whole game. They may play a lot like us or on the same level, but not above us……don’t act like it Hawks!
Miss Horford
January 19th, 2010
1:06 pm
The Hawks loss was not a good one….everyone can say that and agree. Why the lost is a different story. I agree that we did take way too many jump shots that were ridiculous that should have never been shot. I agree that some of the players think that they are superstars and hold that ball too long for words. I agree that OKC were a bit quicker than we were and other than Teague or Mario we really cannot get any quicker. That is why we have been winning over Boston is one reason why OKC beat us. The winning team is a bit quicker. I think that more “accurate” drives to the bucket would have been appropriate instead of these weiner drives, like you are scared of a big man who is not there, and then missing the shot. We also could have actually rebounded our OWN ball instead of just trying to rebound theirs. Some of our players some of the time did this but there just were not enough for enough time to make a difference.
We just have to move on and keep our head in EVERY game, even if we just feel tired.
cdog
January 19th, 2010
1:33 pm
i’m wondering about the hawks committment to being division champions. they let a team like the thunder come into their own house and beat them and they walk away laughing. i believe joe johnson wants out of atlanta now.the way he is turning over the ball and not caring, he is killing the hawks. management should oblige him by getting something for him now while he is worthy. he can do better but its as though he is deliberately trying to help lose games. the are too good to let a team like oklahoma city come in and beat them. on top of that, the majic lost which made the hawks fail to pick up ground but i guess thats what johnson and the hawks wanted.
ATL Welcomes OKC to the Future | UsHour.com
January 19th, 2010
2:15 pm
[...] The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: Even in losing, the Hawks felt flattered. What they’ve done is what Oklahoma City is [...]
tjhook
January 19th, 2010
3:14 pm
yes, Joe Johnson needs to embrace Jamal Crawford more because we benefit when they look to each other to make baskets. If Joe allows JC to take the scoring reins Crawford has proven he will look to feed others so they get a chance to show their scoring prowess. I’ll be in Houston next week to root them on.
West Coast Hawks Fan
January 19th, 2010
5:33 pm
I will go backwards in order to go forward. I’m referring to the not drafting Chris Paul debacle. He could’ve been to Josh Smith what Steve Nash is to Amare Stoudemire. There is no doubt Josh would’ve been a 20 plus ppg 10 plus ppg player every year! We would be talking All Pro not possibly All Star this year and every year! That’s all woulda coulda shoulda so let’s talk about the present. I want to first piggyback off the earlier comment regarding Joe not passing the ball to Jamal after hitting back to back threes. I watched the game on tv 11:00am pst mind you. I heard Jamal get on Joe about not passing the ball when he was wide open at the end of the third quarter. I’ve seen this in previous games as well. Jamal will get on a roll and it seems as if Joe is like ok new guy now it’s my turn! Joe has emabraced Jamal with open arms but there are times when he tries to remind everyone he is the man. Joe needs to realize that Jamal is a willing passer when double and triple teamed something he hasn’t been lately. Translation= Scoring can come a little easier for ya Joe when Jamal is on the court. Stop forcing up shots. Be a willing passer out of the double and triple team. I’ve seen you do it so just do it!!! Jamal can be your Scottie Pippen since you want to be the Michael Jordan of the Hawks. Remember Mike allowed Scottie to shine every now and again. One last thing Woody play Jeff Teague more and Mike Bibby less if the rook is playing well. These are my humble opinions. Thanks for reading.
West Coast Hawks Fan
January 19th, 2010
5:36 pm
I meant 10 rpg not 10ppg.
MitchC
January 19th, 2010
6:33 pm
The Hawks looking at the Thunder and “Seeing their younger selves” could be looked at two ways. One, they did something very, very right, and other teams think it so right, the other teams are trying to emulate the Hawks, or, Two, the Hawks are a “Win Now” team, that needs to play in the NBA Finals this year, to consider it a successful season.
This Hawk team, as good as it’s been, has been very Jekyll-Hyde this season. The win against Phoenix at home the other night was thrilling, and the two Knick losses at home were inexcusable.
I know it’s only Mid January, and I dont want to blow the negativity horn yet, but, this Hawk team could well turn out to be like the Hawk teams of the mid to late 80s and the late 90s, a 50 plus win team, that bows out in the second round, and doesn’t take that “next step”. I’m not saying this will happen, but some of the disappointing losses this season at home, point to that as a possibility.
niremetal
January 19th, 2010
7:29 pm
Hey Mark, you realize there’s more to basketball than stats don’t you?
Oh, no, wait. I forgot who I was talking to. Someone who watches basketball only when the Hawks are on national television and then goes back to talking about UGA personnel changes, the Braves offseason, and probably international curling competitions before he even gives pro basketball another thought.
Do everyone with a brain who cares about basketball a favor: Stop writing about it.
mark baumgartner
January 19th, 2010
9:48 pm
Russell Westbrook was drafted by the Seattle Supersonics, not, as you assert, by OKC. You can look it up.
SL: Arenas’ contract could be terminated; Bucks sign Stack | Hot NBA Videos.com
January 23rd, 2010
8:05 pm
[...] Mark Bradley, AJC: "Even in losing, the Hawks felt flattered. What they’ve done is what Oklahoma City is endeavoring to do. "A mirror of our team," Mike Woodson said afterward, and when was the last time anyone else in the NBA regarded the local franchise as anything to be emulated? Not many teams can match talent with the Hawks. The Thunder did it Monday and left a three-point winner. ‘That’s a great young team over there,’ said the ancient Josh Smith(notes), who’s all of 24 and who nearly generated a triple double. ‘They’ve been able to have a lottery pick and get a marquee guy every year.’ The past three Thunder drafts (the first coming when it was based in Seattle): Landed Kevin Durant(notes) with the second overall pick in 2007 and traded for Jeff Green(notes), who was the fifth pick; drafted Russell Westbrook(notes) with the fourth overall pick in 2008; drafted James Harden(notes) with the third overall pick in 2009. They have 12 first-rounders on the roster, six of them lottery picks. The Hawks likewise boast six lottery picks. And if it weren’t for the improvement shown here these past few years, Oklahoma City might well be charting a different course." [...]