Bradley’s Buzz: Vazquez-for-Cabrera discussed & dissected
Javier, we hardly knew ye. But we liked what we saw. (AJC photo by Curtis Compton)
You’ve heard what Frank Wren had to say, and maybe you’ve even read my cool-headed thoughts on the matter. Today we leave it to outsiders. Or, in point of fact, to folks like ESPN.com’s Insiders. We start with the estimable Keith Law, who says the Braves didn’t get completely fleeced. (Link requires registration.) Writes Law:
“The key player in this trade for Atlanta is Arodys Vizcaino, who becomes one of the top five prospects in the Braves’ system and gives them a trio of potential No. 1 or No. 2 starters in the low minors with Julio Teheran and Randall Delgado. Vizcaino, who pitched at short-season Staten Island this past season, has a live fastball that sits 91-93 mph and touches a little higher. He throws a curveball that flashes plus and should miss bats at the big league level when he reaches it. He already has good feel for pitching and just needs experience and a little cleanup in his delivery, as he often finds his arm slot drifting down, at which point he starts to sling the ball instead of just throwing it.
“The Braves also get a few years of control of Melky Cabrera, a capable fourth outfielder who can play an average center field and has a plus arm. I don’t think Cabrera has the offensive skills to play every day in a corner outfield spot, particularly because of his willingness to expand the zone and chase pitches that most hitters wouldn’t consider. Atlanta could use him as a platoonmate for Matt Diaz, a right-handed hitter who has a 200-point career platoon split, or as a backup at all three outfield spots, playing him behind Diaz, Nate McLouth and — assuming he makes the club — Jason Heyward, the top prospect in baseball.
“Cabrera was a Super Two [eligible for arbitration with less than three years of service] this past offseason and should earn between $2.5 million and $3 million this offseason in arbitration, which is fairly pricey for a fourth outfielder. The third piece going to the Braves, Mike Dunn, is a converted outfielder with arm strength — he hit 94 repeatedly when I saw him in the Arizona Fall League — but he has 40 command at best on the 20-80 scale. He also has an inconsistent slider with some late break but that he has trouble finishing. It’s possible he’ll improve his command and/or control with more experience, but after nearly 400 pro innings, he’s still below-average in both departments.
“Atlanta’s need to make this deal dates back a full year to the signing of Kenshin Kawakami, to whom the team owes more than $13 million in the next two years. The Braves signed Kawakami despite having Tommy Hanson knocking on the door of the majors last winter and Tim Hudson returning from injury — a situation perfect for a one-year stopgap but one that made signing Kawakami [along with Derek Lowe] superfluous. Kawakami is untradable given his contract, and to clear a roster spot and payroll, they had to move their best starter from 2009. It’s a salary dump, and one in which Atlanta is lucky to get a young pitcher as good as Vizcaino, who is among the top 100 prospects in the game.”
And now we turn to the equally estimable Jayson Stark, who believes (as many have suggested) the Braves aren’t finished dealing. (Link also requires registration.) Writes Mr. Stark:
“Let’s characterize the Braves’ next move this way: The [Javier] Vazquez deal frees up about $9 million for the Braves to spend on upgrading their offense — Vazquez’s $11.5-million salary and the half-million in cash they’ll get from the Yankees, minus the $3 million or so Cabrera will make via arbitration. They’ll now look to use that surplus on an outfield bat, a first baseman or possibly both.
Johnny Damon is one possibility, particularly because his home in Orlando is within minutes of the Braves’ spring-training complex. Another option is free agent Xavier Nady, who could play first or the outfield and would come at a relatively low base because he is recovering from his second Tommy John surgery. Or the Braves could look to deal an outfielder — either Cabrera or possibly Jordan Schafer — for a bat. They’ve been linked in trade rumors to Florida’s Dan Uggla, who could potentially slide to first base.”
Writing for SI.com, Andrew Marchman also sees the Braves’ glass as being half-full. Quoth Mr. Marchman:
“The Braves got, it should be said, a better package for Vazquez than the Phillies did for Cliff Lee last week. The most important player they acquired is righthander Arodys Vizcaino , who, like any other teenage pitcher, is liable to break his team’s heart but who has, by all accounts, a serious chance at becoming a star.
“Melky Cabrera is a bad fit for the Braves, as they already have a crowded outfield and a very good center fielder, and most of Cabrera’s value is in his ability to provide vaguely average offense and solid defense in center, but at least he’s a valuable player who gives the team a lot of options. The third player, lefty Mike Dunn, is the proverbial live arm.
“For the Braves, the deal will be judged a success or failure based on what they do with the roughly $8 million that they freed up by moving Vazquez. They have enough starting pitching to sustain the loss, so if they can add a needed bat with that money and trade a spare outfielder to fill another need, they’ll likely come out ahead. If not, they’ll have missed an opportunity. But judged in its own right, this is a fair trade.”
Finally, Danny Knobler of CBSsports.com believes this deal could be a precursor to another. But not, apparently, the needed Big Bat Trade. Writes Mr. Knobler:
“The Braves always intended to trade either Vazquez or Derek Lowe for a much-needed bat. Cabrera could help them, but he’s not really that bat. So the Braves will take the approximately $9 million they save and keep shopping. They say they still can’t afford Matt Holliday or Jason Bay (and probably not even Johnny Damon), but who does that leave them with? Jermaine Dye? Marlon Byrd? Or another trade? [And] if the Braves believe that the 25-year-old Cabrera can be a long-term answer in center field, does that mean they’d make Jordan Schafer available in a trade?”
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217 comments Add your comment
TheAntiMe
December 23rd, 2009
5:09 am
Bottom line, the Braves now have the prospects to trade for a bat. Also, they have some wiggle room in salary to sign someone via free agency such as Johnny Damon. Yes, Damon is not so young anymore but look what Raul Ibanez, who is a year older than Damon, did for the Phillies this year.
TheAntiMe
December 23rd, 2009
5:20 am
BTW, Mark, don’t you ever sleep. You’ve been up late tonight, sir.
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
5:27 am
Mr Bradley- You do know that Lowe has a better career ERA, right? You do know that Vaz had a freak year that he will never duplicate again, right? You do know that Lowe’s season last yr was better than 4 of the past 6 seasons Javy has had, right? No, I did not think so. Baseball is all about averages, unless you are just a superstar( which neither Lowe or Vaz seems to be) if you have a great season, the next season you seem to come back to earth. If you have a bad year, chance are you will have a better season the next season. I have a feeling Lowe and Javy era will be very close next year. The Braves STILL HAVE three could be aces,( Jair, Huddy, and Hanson) a proven winner and a guy who won 15 games last season ( Lowe) and our # 5 starter who had a 3.86 era last year. Sounds pretty good to me!
joe mc
December 23rd, 2009
5:31 am
Thank you Atlanta.I was worried my yankees would get nothing in the way of pitching
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
5:32 am
Also, you people make it sound like we missed the playoffs by 25 games last season. Have yall forgotten we were in it til final week! All we have done is gotten one of the best closers in the history of baseball( Wagner) have a very deep pen, with power arms( I can’t remember the last time that was said about the braves pen) we lost Vaz, yet we have this guy back for the full year. His name is Tim Hudson, and he is a LITTLE bit more proven that the one year wonder Javy. And still 3months and 12-15 mil to spend. No reason to think we wont be in the hunt for October again!
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
5:34 am
Cabrera makes no sense for the Braves. The other Yankees 26 year old outfielder does make sense for the Braves. Gardner would have worked for us, Cabrera better be traded by spring training or he ought to just be released. Who pays 3 mil for a fourth OF, especially when we have Brian Barton the definition of a fourth OF in AAA.
Ted Striker
December 23rd, 2009
5:36 am
Jeeze, guys, you’re up early. I’m not yet in bed.
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
5:37 am
Umm yea Gardner is better than Melky? No, not at all… And Barton signed a minor league contract with the Dodgers. Good try though.
MitchC
December 23rd, 2009
5:38 am
Mark, it looks like you and I were in the minority in regard to our feelings on the Vazquez deal.
After thinking about it last night, I have two thoughts. It isnt so much that I feel Vazquez didnt have to be traded. Maybe he did, and maybe Lowe was very difficult to trade due to the contract. I just think that FW could have waited a bit longer, to have seen what happened with Lowe, and maybe to get a better package of players.
In regard to the money saved on the Vazquez deal. 9 mil is a good savings, and this team needs a bat, as we know. I keep hoping that maybe there’s a way the Braves can stretch their budget a mil or so, and be able to re sign Laroche. If that cant happen, then a Nady or Dunn would do okay too. Yes, Dunn strikes out a lot, but he has good power, something this team desperately needs, with Mccann being our only true power threat.
Maybe long term, this deal will work out okay. Although I will say that I’ll bet Wren regrets signing Derek Lowe and KK to those contracts. Those guys are ours now, for the life of the contracts, whether they win 15 games a season each, or two games a season each
lanier
December 23rd, 2009
5:39 am
Wren is a baseball man he wouldnt do this giveaway on his own. He was forced to by owners to save money. I find the Braves hard to root for
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
5:40 am
Thanks for the info on Barton, I still believe we have better options for a fourth outfielder than paying 3 million for one.
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
5:42 am
I would love to know why you think Melky is better for us than Gardner
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
5:44 am
I somewhat agree with you. Are you going to trust a Matt Diaz who can’t hit RHP? Or a Schafer who has not proven anything except he knows how to strike out? Personally I think Schafer or Nate will be gone by spring training. Most likely Jordan, however if Nate can get us a big time hitter I would pull the trigger. Better to have too many options, than none at all.
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
5:46 am
Because Melky is a switch hitter, Gardner is straight left. In case you have not noticed, the Braves are pretty left handed. Gardner has no power, and I mean NO power. Plus he has 375 career at bats, and a very Corky Miller like 675 ops.. OUCH I will give you that he can flat out fly. But you can’t steal first base.
#2 BAMA FAN
December 23rd, 2009
5:48 am
Hate to see the Braves trade Vazquez instead of Derek Lowe!! Well the Yankees only got better and the Braves get a 4th outfielder and two minor league players!! Yankees raped the braves!!
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
5:57 am
Forrest- You would honestly cut someone who played 154 games for the best team in baseball last season? I did not know the Yankees had every day starters who flat out sucked like your making Melky out to be. Another stat I have not heard a single person talk about. Last year in 485 at bats,The Melk Man only struck out 59 times. Thats how many times Francoeur k’d in a week if yall had forgotten. It means hes a tough out, kind of like Prado. I agree he wont put us over the top, but ever winning team needs a Melky type player on the team.
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
6:10 am
The right handed batter we need is for the middle of the lineup. These guys are for the top or bottom, it really doesn’t matter there. I don’t really think .716 is much better in ops. I just think he’s a way better fit for our team, just like I think Vasquez would be better than Lowe year in and year out for OUR team, but that’s another subject. As a fourth outfielder Cabrera is just to expensive. As a fourth, basically Cabrera would be useful for his arm wheras Gardner would be useful for his speed. If we were to look at this aquisition as actually starting for the Braves then Gardner fits us far better. Start Cabrera and you have pure mediocrity for the 8th spot in the lineup. Start Gardner and you have a leadoff hitter, who has taken walks at a Matt Young-like rate his whole career and stolen bases at at very high % not just a high #. It would allow McCouth to move down in the order too, wheras with Melky McClouth would still be the leadoff man. Melky just doesn’t offer anything that we are lacking; Gardner gives us two things we lack: speed and a leadoff hitter who has a good eye. I am just pleading that Melky has better value to other teams, and hopefully that’s why we got him, to trade him.
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
6:16 am
IMO every winning team needs a Prado type player. We already have a few Prado type players though, and Melky isn’t as good at that niche as any of them.
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
6:19 am
As far as the cutting, if we were going to use him as a fourth outfielder then probably yes. Who pays 3 mil to a fourth OF?
Ernest
December 23rd, 2009
6:21 am
Frank Wren was on 790TheZone @ 4:30 pm on 12/22. He clearly indicated when asked that the Braves are not done dealing this offseason. A right handed bat is something he suggested was still on the horizon (he was asked specifically about LaRoche coming back). He also indicated he got the best package he could for one of our starting pitchers (suggesting that offers for Lowe were not as attractive). Many seem to have short memories regarding their reaction last year when we acquired Vasquez and what was given up to acquire him.
The Braves have been one of the most active teams during this offseason. Additional depth has been added to our area of strength with this deal, pitching. The Braves are in a position to trade using their minor league depth and/or acquire a free agent with monies freed up. Fans probably need to chill until they see what the makeup of the team is like going into spring training.
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
6:22 am
I totally agree Melky is not an impact player. However hes a switch hitter like i said, he can play all three OF spots ( Gardner can’t) You keep saying 4th OF’er. Who are the other 3 OF’ers? Gardner sounds like a Jordan Schafer with zero power. We already got a guy with crazy speed and a good eye. So now are you now telling me Gardner is better than Schafer? Neither has proven much. And I am pretty sure Schaf has a little more potential upside then Brett Gardner!! You must be related to him or something.
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
6:25 am
Exactly Earnest- The Braves have pitching, OF’ers and tons of prospects. They need to use those resources to make up in our areas we lack. Power hitting.
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
6:30 am
Speaking in a right now sense, the other 3 would be McCouth Diaz Heyward. If they made him a starter, which is the only reason in my opinion to keep him a 3 mil, it would be McClouth Diaz and Melky giving Heyward mor time.
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
6:34 am
How good has Diaz been as an every day starter? Not very, the man just can not hit RHP. How many games did Nate randomly miss last year? 25 in half a season? How many games has Heyward played in the majors? You make it sound like have a great outfield. So Melky can be a full time starter for the Yankees, but has no shot to start for the Braves? hmmmmm
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
6:36 am
I agree that Schafer has more upside but I don’t think he’s ready to start in the bigs until atleast ‘11. I think Gardner is what he is, a good major league leadoff hitter without any more upside than the high ob% hight sb% that is required of a leadoff hitter.
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
6:42 am
You know Gardner is a good major league leadoff hitter from 97 career at bats in the leadoff spot where he has a below 700 ops? Im impressed, you need to be a scout if you can project talent like that. Heck, Melkey has almost twice as many career atbats hitting lead off
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
6:45 am
I don’t want Heyward to start in the majors; I think it’s a terrrible outfield, I guess my positive soul must be shining through lol. The so called experts are split as to whether he would start or not for the Braves, I was saying that he isn’t worth the $ if he doesn’t start, but I do think that with our current roster if the season began today he should start. I would just rather have Gardner starting than Cabrera.
Ralph Garr
December 23rd, 2009
6:45 am
FED UP,
Think about what you just wrote. Mark is dead on! When has Mark ever been dead on about anything execpt Wildcat basketball?
tbhawksfan
December 23rd, 2009
6:47 am
I bet yesterday Wren spent the day thinking that Bradley is the worst after reading that Bradley thought he was the worst.
I guess after Wren finishes the job and Bradley say’s; Oh, good job, they’ll kiss and make up.
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
6:48 am
Better to have a .389 carreer OB% in the minors as a leadoff hitter than to have failed at it at the major league level; and if you want to say that speedy guy get illegitimate hits in the low minors because of shoddy D, well anyone in AA and AAA can field, and his numbers were just as good as he got to the higher levels.
Yankee boy
December 23rd, 2009
6:49 am
In the jungle of MLB, there is 1 Lion and a whole lot of hyenas. Guess what the Braves are.
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
6:49 am
O i hope Heyward dominates and is the freak we all know he is right away. We just need to be patient, the kid is 20. And like i said earlier, i honestly believe that either Melky, Nate, or Schaf is gone by spring training… And you have your opinion, and I have mine.
Dave
December 23rd, 2009
6:56 am
The Yankees got rid of Vasquez before they are now getting him for the one year on his contract. Unless he has a big year chances are he may be back on the market again at the end of the year meaning the Braves may be able to sign him to a free agent contract or trade for him later at a reduced price down the line. We all know money is a big part of this so you have to view the trade knowing that. He was the Yankees third best minor leaguer and possibly even their second best pitcher or first if the other players in their minor league system were position players as is the case with Atlanta.
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
6:57 am
I agree with that, and that, and that too. Thanks for discussing it with me as I felt it was a legitimate question, since Girardi had been deciding which one he wanted to start for all of two seasons.
"Chef" Tim Dix
December 23rd, 2009
6:58 am
I’m watching Patton as I blog.
I think Wren watches Patton for breakfast every day.
LOL@theMets
December 23rd, 2009
7:01 am
Well once Matsui got hurt and they moved Damon to DH they both got more PT. Yet Melk played in 50 more games… O well, everyone ( mainly Mark Bradley) needs to relax and wait and see. After all we could be Met fans…. Thats a scarier thought than out starting outfield right now.
Michael Smith
December 23rd, 2009
7:06 am
This is a very disappointing move. If Melky Cabrera and a couple of minor leaguers is all we could get for one of our vaunted starting pitchers, well, we are toast. We have no position players that are even close to the quality of the Phillies’ Howard or Utley or Rollins or Ibanez. We are not competitive with those guys and in 3 years I haven’t seen Wren do anything to move us closer.
Braves are still out of the post-season for another 3 years.
The Braves Are Done
December 23rd, 2009
7:07 am
The Braves need a legitimate cleanup hitter…they won’t get one and they will continue to suck for years to come.
The Braves Are Done
December 23rd, 2009
7:08 am
and then people wonder why Atlanta fans don’t support their teams like fans in other cities…well here again is your answer.
Boston Braves
December 23rd, 2009
7:11 am
I do not think the braves are done dealing yet. Maybe the Bravos can trade with the San Diego for Adrian Gonzalez? Medlen, Melky and a minor leaguer? It would fit San Diego’s budget, they would get to Major leaguers for the right now and we get our 1st baseman with power and a team friendly contract. crazier things have happened!
Forrest
December 23rd, 2009
7:16 am
Fan support can make a good team a little better. The Braves, Hawks, and Falcons (I know nothing of hockey) are all good teams and Atlanta could make them a little better.
Marc in FL
December 23rd, 2009
7:19 am
To be honest I don’t see anyone short of a Bay or Holliday type player as really improving this team. Uggle? Nady? Damon? Not horrible players, but not ideal clean-up hitters either, and that’s what we need. Without a true #4, I don’t see us as being better than last year’s 86 wins, in fact I would expect to finish with a worst record.
NCBravesFan
December 23rd, 2009
7:23 am
Overall I think the Braves got a reasonable return for a top of the rotation starter with one year left on his contract (and one with an inconsistent track record from one year to the next).
The real question comes back to Cabrera and his fit on the Braves – and on that note I think we have to grade the trade as incomplete. We simply don’t know what the final roster is going to look like yet and whether MC will be a part of the Braves. It’s a little early to judge Wren for his work thus far.
I think any fan with his/her eyes open knew that the re-signing of Hudson would likely force some difficult decisions this off-season. On the one hand, you had a pitcher who had a disappointing 2009 who was paid a premium over the long haul (Lowe), and a guy with ace stuff signed for one more year with a limited trade market (couldn’t trade JV to half the divisions in baseball for one reason or another).
Neither of those situations make for getting a king’s ransom on the open market. What trading one or the other does is create the flexibility to do other things. Which is exactly what has happened.
Let’s see how the roster looks in a month and judge it then.
DisillusionedBravesFan
December 23rd, 2009
7:25 am
I hope that this trade is just the first piece of a bigger puzzle, and will end up factoring into more deals that leave the Braves truly in a better competitive position for next season, because right now it appears pretty senseless (to put it mildly) on the surface. Even if you take the position that we now have one or more very good prospects in the ‘lower minors’, that raises the question of whether the organization’s player-development skills are currently at a high enough level to nurture and take advantage of them…which to me is no longer a given.
Opinions, anyone?
Sleeze
December 23rd, 2009
7:28 am
It’s hard to evaluate this deal completely until we see what (or “if”) Wren does something else. If this deal was a precursor that sets up another deal for a live bat, then it makes more sense.
ArkyTech
December 23rd, 2009
7:37 am
If we’re so “deep” in the outfield, how come we keep trotting out the likes of Gregor Blanco and Reid Goreicki? If Melky was good enough to play 150 games and pick up 485 at bats for the Yankees, he can probably help us out.
Law says he isn’t offensively good enough to play the corner – who in our organization is at this point? The closest thing is Diaz, and he doesn’t hit righties, has defensive liabilities, and is oft-injured. Melky is a nice piece that addresses an area of weakness. Now sit back and see what happens next.
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
7:48 am
What salary would Vazquez command as a free agent and sub 3 ERA? The one year left on his contract works great for the Yankees if last year was a career year or fluke. Frank Wren is a Yankke mole secretly working for the Steinbrenners.
The best team and current World Champion gets our best pitcher based on performance and not imagination.
Other MLB teams feel they deserve a trade with the Braves to make things fair.
"Chef" Tim Dix
December 23rd, 2009
7:48 am
It’s alot to ask but the legit cleanup guy might be the kid from McDonough. Face it folks, 90 large doesn’t buy what it use to.
"Chef" Tim Dix
December 23rd, 2009
7:50 am
Patton just killed two jack asses.
Ever had that feeling?
Dap01
December 23rd, 2009
7:52 am
Who is Gardner and does he play for the Braves? The trade might help us in the years to come but it will win very few games for us in 2010. Melky will make $3,000,000 next year. His stats have nothing in them that indicates a $3,000,000 contract.
Again, does Gardner play for the Braves?
FoxNoise.net
December 23rd, 2009
7:54 am
Ever since Andrew Jones lost his swing the Braves have been cursed in the outfield.
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
7:59 am
Gardner is a young Yankee outfielder with more potential than Cabrera.
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
8:00 am
Andruw’s demise as a hitter coincide with the demise of the Gold Club. Just kiding.
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
8:02 am
The millions we can’t afford are chump change to the Yankees. Adding to last year’s World Series Champion, how is the season not already over?
Tim
December 23rd, 2009
8:03 am
Yep, San Diego is looking for a CF and even at $5 million a year probably need to move Adrian Gonzalez. Let’s hope the NY trade was to free up $$$ and get Melky to facilitate a 2nd trade to SD for Gonzalez. Freeing a net $10 million in the NY trade would allow the Braves to pay Gonzalez – plus have $$$ to acquire an OF.
Justin in NM
December 23rd, 2009
8:06 am
While I think Adrian Gonzalez would be a nice pickup (and fill a void at 1B), we’d almost certainly have to include Freddie Freeman in that trade. I don’t see that happening. Gonzalez is a LH hitter, we are an already LH heavy lineup. Dan Uggla makes more sense, as he’d be the RH bat, and, either he or Prado would slide to 1B. Chipper has maybe 1-2 years left, at which time Freeman would be ready for 1B and then Prado could move to 3B, Uggla to 2B….
The issue I see here though – would Florida trade Uggla within the division?
Wren has been pretty good at keeping things under wraps. We didn’t hear of the JV trade until pretty much right before it happened – so he very well could be working on a deal for someone we’re not considering. Right now though, I think Uggla is way more probable than AG.
papadawg
December 23rd, 2009
8:07 am
Please, NO to Damon, he’s only decent when surrounded by great players
Justin in NM
December 23rd, 2009
8:07 am
The other possibility is Mark DeRosa – RH hitter, some power – but is he really the “power bat” we’re looking for?
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
8:08 am
What if the Yankees do the deals we want the Braves to do? With Vasquez, they can offer one of their young SPs in a deal?
Mark posting at 4:52.
This trade must have bummed him so much he didn’t get much sleep.
Or are you so dedicated to your job you decided to sleep only 4 hours a day?
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
8:12 am
Anyone want to venture an estimate of how many millions Vazquez’s numbers would command if he were a free agent. I doubt Vazquey is keen about going back to the AL east but it will mean playing on a WS Champion. With what the Yankees spend, really the only thing holding them back is getting that first one under their belt like their run in the 90s.
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
8:13 am
The main upside to this trade: I can agree with Uga fans for a few days.
SimpleDawg
December 23rd, 2009
8:15 am
Bad Move ! Stupid Trade ! Everybody needs pitching……the Braves just traded their best pitcher for an average outfielder with a Francouer strike zone but none of the defensive skills, a real project, and a young pitcher with a lot of potential….which ol’ Falcon Jeff Van Note correctly categorized as “a French word meaning you haven’t done $#!+, yet”.
Good luck Frankie in making chicken salad out of this chicken $#!+ trade.
Damn it, Ted. Why did you ever sell the Braves?
F-105 Thunderchief
December 23rd, 2009
8:15 am
The bottom line remains, Atlanta weakened its pitching and did not upgrade its offense at all. To make this deal worthwhile, Wren must, must get a big bat with that money. Mr. Wren, your cojones are on the block … proceed, sir.
This could be a great trade!
December 23rd, 2009
8:19 am
At first I was shocked by this trade, but after much reading, I think this could have the makings of a great trade. Let’s assume the Braves trade MC, now the Braves have the full 11.5 Million from freeing up JV’s contract, throw in the 500k cash and that gives us 12 million to spend on a big bat! If the key player was the number 3 prospect in the Yankees minor league system, we may have a great number 3 starter when Hudson is done. Meanwhile, Javier Vazquez brings his numbers back to where they have been historically, D Lowe has a better season than last year, and they have a flame thrower in the bull pen to come in and be a decent situational pitcher from time to time.
If someone told me we traded Javy Vazquez for a 12 million per year cleanup hitter (or we throw a little more money in and get a 15 million per year clean up hitter at 1B or outfield), and that we got the third best Yankees prospect and a live arm for the bullpen for JV, I would be pretty excited.
Let’s follow this trade through to the end before we judge Frank Wren.
coach smith
December 23rd, 2009
8:21 am
First of all get it straight
The Braves got 500k in the deal so they have 9 Million Dollars freed up…Combine that with the 3 million they didn’t give Kelly Johnson and the Braves have roughly 12 MILLION DOLLARS TO SPEND
Here is what WREN said on 790 yesterday
“There’s definitely some more things we’re doing.” When asked directly if he was looking to add a middle of the order bat, Wren replied “We think we’re in the mix for a guy just like that. We’re going to add a run producer that’s going to round out our offense.”
I think this is exciting
Wren flat out says that the Braves ARE GOING TO ADD A MIDDLE OF THE ORDER RUN PRODUCER
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
8:23 am
Like he did last year?
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
8:25 am
The only way this is a great trade is if the Yankee guy in single A is another Smoltz. That’s a big if.
Me I hate anything that helps the Yankees.
Who can stop them now?
j
December 23rd, 2009
8:34 am
MELKY=DUMPSTER
WREN=DUMPSTER
clint ellison
December 23rd, 2009
8:34 am
Bravos must have a bonafide cleanup guy. You gotta have average, consistency and power in the 4 hole. The dealings I have seen so far make no sense. We sent a great relief man, Soriano, to the Sunshine State and signed 38 yr old Wagner. I see no real upside there. Now, you got a glut of average outfielders with no pop. I like LaRoche’s bat and glove, but you still gotta get a bopper. I don’t understand the Braves’ thinking. Perhaps it will all become clear in the next life.
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
8:35 am
Congrats Mark. You’ve really been spot on in your columns on this deal.
frosgrim
December 23rd, 2009
8:36 am
I strongly believe that the Braves have another move or two in store. Guys I DO NOT want to see:
Uggla- he’s 29 and strikes out way too much- he’s headed for a Marcus Giles type decline
Nady- unless we get him on the cheap, he is not worth the gamble. Too fragile for a team that is in need of pop
Damon- Left handed, weak-armed CF. Where does he fit in the lineup? Not a lot of pop in his bat either
ZamBonE
December 23rd, 2009
8:43 am
Gardner does not have more potential than Melky. I watch almost every Yankee game and I can tell you that Gardner is never going to be a legit starter at the major league level unless he plays for the natinals. I would have loved to give up Gardner instead of Melky. Gardner is a slap hitter that relies only on his speed. I wouldn’t mind if he slapped singles, but he hits weak pop flys way too often and rarely drives the ball. If he wasn’t that fast, he would be a minor league player for life. Gardner also thinks hes faster than he is on the bases, and ends up making dumb outs. Gardner is also a year older than Melky.
tbhawksfan
December 23rd, 2009
8:44 am
It’s entirely possible that Wren trades for a #4 BAT in OF and re-ups LaRoche. Something of this nature is going to happen. In that senario we’d be looking at a true #4, LaRoche #5 and McC #6 with Chipper #3 and decent power at SS and with Heyward and McC.
And a nice rotation and pen.
I’m excited about the possibilities and the potential.
I’m also not penciling in Freeman at 1B yet. H’es a year or two from potentially being a MLB starter. I’d trade him in a second to have this type of lineup.
TomR
December 23rd, 2009
8:45 am
Stop it, stop it, stop it! Frank Wren, stop trading Braves talent for NOTHING. Half the future of the club for a Mark Texiera rental. Francoeur for NOTHING. The best pitcher (Vazquez) the Braves have had in years for a fourth outfielder to platoon with Diaz! What are you thinking!!!!
willie martinez
December 23rd, 2009
8:45 am
Mark, the insomnia is kicking in i see.
F-105 Thunderchief
December 23rd, 2009
8:49 am
I’m in favor of sending all these Yankees, plus Freddie Freeman to San Diego for Adrian Gonzalez.
cj
December 23rd, 2009
8:54 am
I am a bit confused by the trade. I do, however, I understand the money situation. What are we clearing the room for though? We are not going to get Holliday or Bey. By the way, someone mentioned we got one of the best closers of all time…..at 39? That’s a long term solution. Let’s throw all our money at someone like….Derek Lowe, oh yes we already have done that. Hard to read between the lines or behind the scenes to see what is reallly going on.
Kashi
December 23rd, 2009
9:00 am
If we don’t get a proven power bat to back Chiper. This season is over by start of spring trainning. We don’t have lead off hitter. Chipper avg will hover around 260 + hurt. They will just walk brian or give nothing to hit. Escobar will try hard to drive in runs but he will get nothing to hit or there won’t be any on base. Now who do we have beside ailing chipper and brian in our lineup who poses threat to pitcher. O gooosh, something needs to be done. We have bigger problem then any team. 1. LaRoch bat, 2. left field void, 3. uncertain right field and 4. 3RD base. I don’t know what to say…
To get Javy we gave up good shortstop Brent, power hitter catcher Tyler, and two minor leaguers. In return we got 1 yr service, Melky, Dunn, and promising super star. I would say fair exchange but we have seen lots of promising super start didn’t even make it to team many times.
willie martinez
December 23rd, 2009
9:04 am
braves already have 4 4th outfielders.
EW
December 23rd, 2009
9:04 am
Now that the shock of the deal has worn off I feel better. We really were left with no other options it seems. We had to dump some money somewhere and we cashed in on Javy’s good year. Who knows what next year will bring, but I think it’s gonna be tough to duplicate last year in the Bronx. Javy will see consistently better hitting in the AL and pitching in NY is an animal all its own (being a veteran and being there before weigh in Javy’s favor though). I hope we use the freed up cash wisely, while I want the big name we need stability. A one year stop would be foolish. I like that Dan Uggla’s name is being thrown around, he kills us in that division rivalry. I’m keeping a positive head on this til we see more.
ZamBonE
December 23rd, 2009
9:04 am
Wren is thinking there is no chance Vazquez comes close to putting up the numbers he did last season. Look at his career numbers and break it down by each season. Last year was BY FAR his best season as a major league player. His career .505 record and ERA of 4.19 does not make him a great pitcher by any stretch of the imagination. Not to mention he gives up and avg of 28 HRs a season. He had a great season last year (15-10 2.87 ERA), but he’s only an average pitcher.
With all the starters the Braves have (Lowe, Hudson, Jurrgens, and Hanson), trading one of their higher paid pitchers coming off a great year is the best way to get value. He hits the market after this season and since baseball is a game of averages, Vazquez is most likely to assume his role as a decent big league pitcher.
EW
December 23rd, 2009
9:07 am
OBTW, whoever we get will need to bat cleanup. McCann can do it, but it’s silly to bat a catcher cleanup when he’s out every fifth day.
MB, Is Heyward a leadoff hitting type? I hate to say I haven’t read up on him enough. Either way, I think we are looking good speed wise (not that Bobby will steal bases) but once again we have to get one more bat.
Don
December 23rd, 2009
9:13 am
First of all the Braves should not have traded Vazquez, period. With Cox managing, their only chance of winning the Division (as always) was to have Pitching so dominant – so far far superior to the other teams – that it would overcome Cox’s management procedures and lack thereof (his incompentence) and enable them to win over the long 162 game regular season schedule, in spite of him. With Vazquez goes the slim chance they had of being competitive in 2010. Vazquez would mean more to winning than any bat they could acquire as a result of this.
Secondly, even if they were going to trade Pitching, they seem to have forgotten that the name of the game is Pitching and that Pitching is and will be at a premium. All they had to do was be patient and they could have received great talent for both Vazquez and Soriano. What they recieved for them is absurd. By the end of spring training, the demand for either of them would have been great and they could have just about named their own price in terms of what they could have recieved.
SimpleDawg
December 23rd, 2009
9:13 am
Still looks like a stupid trade for the Braves. Trading a proven front line starter and a good middle relief guy for a 4th outfielder and 2 pie-in-the-sky prospects doesn’t smell right on any level.
fsugolf8166
December 23rd, 2009
9:17 am
i would like to know who they are looking at is it
miguel cabrera i hope its this one
adrain gonzalez dont see no chance in h***
adam dunn ok i guess
wouldnt mind this lineup but just dreaming
c mccann
1st cabrera
2nd prado
ss escobar
3rd jones/glaus
of mclouth
of heyward
of dye/diaz
Ralph Garr
December 23rd, 2009
9:19 am
Guys the Braves did not do this guy a favor by sending him to the Yankees! That is probably the last place he wanted to be traded. Remember the home run he gave up to Damon? I know all of New Your does!
Jim R
December 23rd, 2009
9:25 am
We’re still months away from the springb training and the regular season and most of you bloggers can’t see the forest for the trees. Melky is a proven major league player. That said he is tradable and so is Jordan Shafer and several other players. I don’t think this is the team that breaks spring training and if you do you need to be watching soccer or some other sport you know nothing about. Remember John Schuerholz is still an integral part of the Braves. Chill. Everything will be alright.
BravestBrave
December 23rd, 2009
9:28 am
#1 ace gone. No 1 hitter? Better lineup? So far we have lost our best trade bait for a role player with no power, not resigning our best producer over the last half of the season, and expect to get a starting power guy for prospects. Forget it. Johnny Damon is not coming here. Or any other power hitter that can still play or we would have had Griffey last year. This organization has been nibbling around the edges trying to make magic that is not there anymore. There are no Fred McGriffs out there that you can pick up for chump change. If the Braves front office don’t start thinking like champions, it will be a long time before the wins are back after September.
Don
December 23rd, 2009
9:28 am
DOUBLE STUPID:
First, to trade Vazquez at all was absurd. He would contribute more to winning the Division than any bat we could possible acquire. With Vazquez goes any chance we had of being competive.
Second, to trade him for what we received is beyond belief. With some patience, by end of spring training, a great player or players could have been received.
Are we sure that Frank Wren was not out of town – and that this trade was made by Bobby Cox.
Traver
December 23rd, 2009
9:33 am
Still don’t like it. This trade had to happen because of the bad decision last year on Lowe. Frank still screwed it up.
Sporty Black
December 23rd, 2009
9:36 am
Once upon a 14 year streak, we did it from within (with a McGriff sprinkled here and there). If it aint’t broke, don’t fix it Mr. Wren. Let’s dump these career average (at best) players such as McClouth, Cabrerra, and even Derrick Lowe. Lets put our youth to work (who by the way is cheap labor) and see what happens. We were forced to do that in the late 80’s and look what happened. Bye-bye Dale Murphy is analogous to bye-bye Chipper Jones. And finally, let’s get some SPEED and ‘attitude’in the line-up. This team has no personality.
Random
December 23rd, 2009
9:36 am
Thanks, MB!!!
Ernest
December 23rd, 2009
9:41 am
In my 6:21am post, I mentioned the interview with Fran Wren by 790theZone. Listen to it for yourself at:
http://www.790thezone.com/Recaps/Channels/Story.aspx?ID=1178174
and select Frank Wren.
Making an early evaluation of this trade is like evaluating each move of a chess game. This move was obviously made to set something else up. Those who are passing judgment without looking at the big picture or even listening to what the GM had to say about the trade (and future moves) are without a clue. The same question again, who like the Vasquez trade last year when it was made?
130on2
December 23rd, 2009
9:41 am
SimpleDawg is right. Just guessing, but even the ‘can’t miss’ prospects miss about 50% of the time. This trade reminds me of Neville Chamberlain and Hitler’s ‘negotiotions’. Unfortunately, we are the Chamberlains.
Run To The Other Blog
December 23rd, 2009
9:43 am
Troy Glaus to the Braves to play 1B close, according to Ken Rosenthal
EW
December 23rd, 2009
9:47 am
I think ppl need to relax. Our starting rotation is FINE without Vasquez. Hell, Jurjens would have won a Cy Young with run support. And he will be a #3 starter more than likely. Tim Hudson, D Lowe, JJ, Hanson, and KK. We have the pitching, experience in the pen (mark my words, having veteran pro at the end of the game will help our entire pen). We have the tools on hand to trade for the bat we need. And we WILL. RELAX
Gerard Voinski
December 23rd, 2009
9:49 am
The day will come, and it will be soon, that Braves fans will be very grateful indeed to Brian Cashman for giving Melky Cabrera to them.
F-105 Thunderchief
December 23rd, 2009
9:49 am
Glaus is expensive and bad.
Ernest
December 23rd, 2009
9:50 am
I should have mentioned above to look under the Pollack and Bell Podcast section for the interview on 12/22 with Frank Wren.
Hey Sporty,
December 23rd, 2009
9:50 am
Right on, bro’. Right on!
EW
December 23rd, 2009
9:51 am
any word on for who Run to the Other?
EW
December 23rd, 2009
9:53 am
Looked at Glaus’ numbers, doesn’t seem to be any better than LaRoche. Is he gonna be cheaper? Glaus hit .270 in 08 with 27 HR’s but only played in 9 gms last year.
Ernest
December 23rd, 2009
9:53 am
Also check out this site for what Frank Wren said:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/atlanta_braves/
chris
December 23rd, 2009
9:54 am
I don’t like the trade at all…..First because you gave away the #1 pitcher on your staff in 09 & Second you have alienated Derek Lowe in the process by letting him believe the entire time that he was the one you were moving. So how motivated is Mr. Lowe going to be to come back and pitch for you in 2010.
If Wren doesn’t get any punch added to this offense after freeing up all this money, then no reason to buy tickets to see the Braves this year.
EW
December 23rd, 2009
9:55 am
chris, if Lowe can’t be motivated to do the job he’s paid millions to do, he wouldn’t be a major leaguer. Stop babying these guys, they know it’s a business and they’re above it.
Sporty Black
December 23rd, 2009
9:56 am
@ Run To The Other Blog:
I hope you are wrong… Glaus career average is .255 w/25.3 HR/yr. Andruw Jones is .257 w/27.7 HR/yr… remember we ran Andruw of of town. We don’t need another vanilla player. Why can’t Frank Wren to go after a lead-off hitter that bats .300 or better.
Run To The Other Blog
December 23rd, 2009
9:57 am
Glaus FA signing with Braves a done deal pending physical per Ken Rosenthal
fsugolf8166
December 23rd, 2009
9:58 am
glaus to braves pending physical love it
Ernest
December 23rd, 2009
9:59 am
@ Run, can you provide a link for your information???
Wren Hater
December 23rd, 2009
9:59 am
Fire Frank and Fire him now!!!
fsugolf8166
December 23rd, 2009
9:59 am
now all we need is derosa and dye to back up glaus cant wait
Run To The Other Blog
December 23rd, 2009
10:00 am
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/source%3A-braves-give-glaus-one-year-deal
EW
December 23rd, 2009
10:00 am
Sporty, we have McClouth, Prado, Heyward (probably). I’d say our leadoff prospects are fine. NEXT.
Sonny Clusters
December 23rd, 2009
10:00 am
Troy Tuttles played some ball with us and played a pretty good first base but he had some difficulties concentrating, a lot like Adam LaRoche. One day, Troy forgot we was playing ball and he was looking at the way his glove was stitched up and that’s when Jeff let loose with a real hard throw to first. That ball hit Troy right in the cranium and bounced high into the air over around third base where Stinky Wintes was. Stinky snagged that ball and stepped on third base to get the force and then he spun and threw to second to get the runner. Troy didn’t say nothing. He just trotted over to the dugout and took a seat. But they was only two outs! We thought it was because he got hit in the head that he lost track of the outs but Coach said that was just Troy.
fsugolf8166
December 23rd, 2009
10:00 am
ernest go to fox sports
Sporty Black
December 23rd, 2009
10:00 am
Damn! Damn! Damn!
fieldofdreams
December 23rd, 2009
10:02 am
We’re pitching rich, man. The trade is a good one and we did not get fleeced. They’re overpaid, but Lowe and KK will make super 4 and 5 starters. Wren’s been moving fast because he’s got a trade brewing that necessitated keeping the cash available. We have a (potentially) spectacular player for right field; all we really need is RBI guys for left and first, and this team is set. I for one hope they can re-sign LaRoche; Adam, why don’t you offer us a home team discount?
Sporty Black
December 23rd, 2009
10:05 am
I’m officially trading my fanship to the Red Sox.
fieldofdreams
December 23rd, 2009
10:05 am
Ok: Troy Glaus will play first, and can back up Chipper at third?
RJ
December 23rd, 2009
10:06 am
Who needs an ace when you can get a 4th outfielder.
Joe
December 23rd, 2009
10:06 am
Braves should consider offering a contract to Aroldis Chapman, a 22 years old- Cuban defector (95-100 mph).
Don
December 23rd, 2009
10:07 am
It is difficult to even believe this trade. It is insance. Aside from the main point that they should not have traded Vazquez at al; has the entire game of baseball suddenly changed, is pitching suddenly not the most important element in the game. To trade Vazquez for what they received is beyond belief. Even if they were going to trade him, all they had to do was be patient and some team would be so desparate for pitching that they would trade a star outfielder or star first baseman for him. This is absolutely absurd. Although with Bobby Cox returning, there was only a slim chance of winning in 2010, that slim chance is now gone with Vazquez. Even if we had received a star hitter, it would not mean as much to winning as Vazquez.
Ernest
December 23rd, 2009
10:07 am
Thanks for the link! Interesting move considering he is not a ‘natural’ first baseman however he was a Gold Glover at third. It will be interesting to see the salary numbers as it could indicate whether this will be a platoon situation or a full time gig. Regardless, it provides the ’stopgap’ the Braves were looking for until Freeman is deemed ready for the big leagues.
EW
December 23rd, 2009
10:08 am
Can we PLEASE sign someone to a multi year deal??? PLEEEASE?? This isn’t how you build a team.
Old Timer Brave Fan
December 23rd, 2009
10:09 am
Bad trade..But a good thought for next year. When Bobby Cox retires .. Lets go get Joe Torre for the Braves Mgr.
He is in his last year on his contract with the Dodgers.
Don
December 23rd, 2009
10:10 am
Now that this move has been made. The re-signing of Norton would not seem to all that bad. Besides, we do need to sign Norton – we should not break up our trio of incompetence – Cox as manager, Pendelton as hitting coach, and Norton as our #1 pinch hitter.
PMC
December 23rd, 2009
10:10 am
Ok so essentially worst case we are Pittsburgh (hot minor league prospects, not much hitting eventually our good guys get traded when they need to be paid)
Best case Minnesota, exciting a couple really good players but no championships.
This Braves team cannot compete as constructed, there is virtually no reason to wander down to the ball park to see them play.
Chipper Jones contract is now an albatross around their necks…. paid highly because people are such big fans I guess that’s one way to sell tickets. My guess is they hope he retires with Bobby.
Kawakami cost them Vasquez which will cost them competiting this season 80-90 wins is all they can count on because what they really need which is Heyward to be what they thought they had in Francouer and a 30HR 45doubles 100RBI guy in left they can’t afford.
Welcome to the new dead period for the Atlanta franchise. Always the bridesmade never the bride, squarely the issue can be placed with ownership.
I guarentee attendance falls this year.
Mark Bradley
December 23rd, 2009
10:11 am
The Norton market has been quiet. Too quiet, I think. Something big is percolatin’.
PMC
December 23rd, 2009
10:12 am
They have a team full of 4th outfielders now. Awesome.
Ted M
December 23rd, 2009
10:12 am
I hope they don’t trade Schafer he deserves another chance with the Braves
Sam The Man
December 23rd, 2009
10:13 am
Let’s deal Vizcaino, Schaeffer or Melkey and Medlen to the Padres for Gonzalez.
DO IT!
GSU Eagle 91
December 23rd, 2009
10:13 am
Mark, the real question is….
Will we re-sign future HOFer Greg Norton?
Cmill
December 23rd, 2009
10:14 am
Mark, Any truth to the Troy Glaus rumor?
EW
December 23rd, 2009
10:14 am
Don, what if Javy gets hurt, has a slow start, or any other number of things that could have prevented us from cashing in on his best year ever last year? We had to sell high. That coupled with the fact that Wren’s balls are in the ownership’s bottom-line oriented vice are why we moved him. And nobody wanted Lowe yet. If what you say is true, that might be how we move Lowe if the return is right.
Mike S
December 23rd, 2009
10:14 am
While I can’t help but think there is more to come in the way of trades and/or signings as of right now I am having a hard time seeing where the Braves have improved themselves. Yes we got a stub prospect from the Stankees, but that does not help for next season.
Bottom line is this – Is Hudson, Wagner, Saito, Cabrera, Glaus any better than Vasquez, Soriano, Gonzalez, Anderson, Laroche?
I am not seeing a lot of upward movement. Plus Hudson, Wagner, Saito and Glaus are all coming off MAJOR surgeries that cost them all or most of last season. That is an awful lot of potential injury issues to put the fate of the upcoming season on.
MY take:
Hudson – Vasquez – this is a wash. chances are Javy would have regressed this season, but is Hudson ready for the #1 load again?
Wagner – Soriano – A fully healthy Wagner is > than a fully healthy Soriano in my book, but is Wagner fully recovered and is he anywhere near the old Wagner
Saito – Gonzo – This is a definate MINUS. Replace a great reliever with a FORMERLY great reliever who is now 40 years old and coming off an injury marred season. Not a good swap in my book.
Cabrera – Anderson — a wash offensively, but a definate D upgrade. But the word was we needed an OF BAT, Cabrera is not the answer there. Are the Braves really going to put it all on Heyward???
Glaus – LaRoche — Definately LOSS Defensively. We go from one of the best Defensive 1B to a guy who has played less than 50 games at 1B in his career. Offensively it is a wash, but Glaus is coming off a full season off for shoulder surgery. A total crapshoot as to whether his power will still be there.
I hope there is a Adrian Gonzalez trade or a big signing still to come, because this team is no better than last season at the moment.
Run To The Other Blog
December 23rd, 2009
10:17 am
Ahh Sam. The Braves now have a first baseman. Troy Glaus. You don’t sign him if you’re going after Gonzo.
Sccob
December 23rd, 2009
10:21 am
Impatient Braves fans…K Ros just tweeted that we’re close to signing Glaus, there’s the first piece…now a Dero, Damon, Nady?
Josh M
December 23rd, 2009
10:21 am
THIS IS AWESOME NEWS!
Oh wait, it isn’t 2001?
Atticus
December 23rd, 2009
10:24 am
4 years and no playoffs. This doesn’t change anything. Soriano, Gonzalez and Vasquez–GONE. Added Wagner, Saito and Cabreara. Even with a mid level 1B, this team has NO chance to win the division. Chipper is fragile, McCann needs rest and we have no power in the OF. And they wonder why Braves fans don’t show up…..
Noah
December 23rd, 2009
10:24 am
Love the Glaus signing — Especially since he can fill in at 3rd when Chipper is out, gives you right handed power if he is healthy and if the Braves are commiting to him full time they can still bring in someone else. Hopefully the Braves feel he can play a good first base.
Sccob
December 23rd, 2009
10:25 am
Closer to 2008 Josh…855 OPS, 27HR 100 RBI??? 5-6 mill cheaper than LaRoche?? I’m OK
billcanoe
December 23rd, 2009
10:26 am
This is an absolutely ridiculous deal! The Yankees have been buying pennants for 90 years and this deal makes me harken back to when the Kansas City Athletics (before they moved to Oakland) were technically in the major leagues, but they were, in effect, a Yankee farm club, sending stars like Roger Maris and Hank Bauer and other players too numerous to mention, to the Yankees in exchange for nothing. The Braves are now approaching that level – and it’s way below mediocrity.
Reid Adair
December 23rd, 2009
10:26 am
Thanks to Keith Law for pointing out that the signings of Kawakami and Lowe last year were not the great achievements that everyone, including Frank Wren, made them out to be.
Vazquez for Cabrera is just another example of Wren’s disastrous work.
Jason Stark may be right in that the Braves aren’t through “dealing,” but I wouldn’t expect it to be anything that will actually help the team for 2010.
Ray Pugh
December 23rd, 2009
10:27 am
Idiots: Troy Glaus was out last year because his shoulder affected his THROWING from 3rd base, not his bat. He’s only 33, and has averaged 30-35 homers and .850 OPS throughout his career. There is a reason why Wren picked him over all the available free agent 1B/OFs…
Sccob
December 23rd, 2009
10:27 am
He does get hurt more than Chipper though….
Sccob
December 23rd, 2009
10:29 am
We need to get Dero or Damon now with the left over money we have from trading Vazquez
Noah
December 23rd, 2009
10:29 am
Ray…great points, Glaus is a great addition. Curious to see how much he costs and if its one year or multi year. Don’t forget he can spell Chipper at 3rd too. Now add Delgado and we are set
Sporty Black
December 23rd, 2009
10:31 am
What’s left:
Diaz – .313 (won’t even let this guy play everyday)
Prado – .307 (won’t even let this guy play everyday)
Infante – .305 (won’t even let this guy play everyday)
Escobar – .299 (Cox keep benching when he should try to build around)
McCann – .281 (Stud)
Jones – .264 (It’s time to move on)
Lowe – What a waste of money
Transactions:
*trade away/let-go two good, young closers (Soriano, Gonzalez)
*add 38 year old closer coming of Tommy John (Wagner)
*trade away best starting pitcher (Vasquez)
*add two .250 hitters (Glaus, Cabrera)
*not resigning Laroche
The Braves are better? Get real. Unless Heyward makes team and bats .400 w/50 HR, Braves will lose 95+ games
Ray Pugh
December 23rd, 2009
10:31 am
Delgado’s a first baseman, and there was just a report that his return to winter ball has been pushed back…. the most likely target now is Dan Uggla, who will play left or second w/ Prado switching to left…
Diesel0023
December 23rd, 2009
10:31 am
Melky Cabrera will be surprisingly better with the Braves. He will be able to hit for average and gives us much needed speed at the top of the order. The key here is trading for Gonzalez in San Diego. Check out your line up. Cabrera, Escobar, Chipper, Gonzalez, McClouth, McCann, Heyward, Prado. Chipper and McClouth will put up better numbers this year with less pressure. Also, Heyward will excel in the seven hole, because he is not depended on heavily as a rookie.
Kentavo
December 23rd, 2009
10:32 am
You know, I’m all for Glaus and Johnny Damon – both have WS rings – and what the team needs, that know-how-to-win attitude that’s missing. Who else on the roster has a WS besides Chipper?
Hmm…Lowe. I know Damon is a lefty bat, but he is tough, tough out.
Scoob
December 23rd, 2009
10:32 am
1 year 5-6 Mill, coming off multiple shoulder surgeries, there’s no way we sign him for more I don’t think. Glaus is going to be playing 1B so we will not be signing Delgado
Patience
December 23rd, 2009
10:33 am
Much better article than the original emotional rant.
As the true experts describe, this is the first step in a “process”. It is WAY too early to judge the value of this trade. Have confidence and PATIENCE! It will work out to everyone’s satisfaction.
Scoob
December 23rd, 2009
10:34 am
Everyone is so hamstrung on Cabrera…IF he doesn’t get traded away, he is going to end up being our 4th outfielder
Bill Stanfill
December 23rd, 2009
10:36 am
The problem with Wren is that there is no consistent vision here. He signed 3 starters and he now seems eager to trade all 3. He exchanges average players with the Pirates. He gets prospects then signs guys in their late 30s. . . . There’s no clear direction that he has the team headed towards. I think he owes the fans some explanations.
curtis jones
December 23rd, 2009
10:37 am
At the end of the season, I said the Braves need a speedy outfielder who can lead off and steal 30-plus bases (that isn’t McLouth, sorry), and a power hitting first baseman. We still have neither. And we still have Chipper batting 3rd and McCann at cleanup. Still a 3rd place team at best.
Scoob
December 23rd, 2009
10:39 am
K Ros just confirmed deal is done, 1 year heavy on Performance Incentives
CharlestonBravesFan
December 23rd, 2009
10:40 am
Braves sign Glaus to play first.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/source%3A-braves-give-glaus-one-year-deal
Professor Dan
December 23rd, 2009
10:40 am
This was a horrible trade. Your first instincts were right. Any time we have to make convoluted, legalistic arguments to make something look right, it probably wasn’t.The Braves aren’t as good today as they were two days ago. Period.
Noah
December 23rd, 2009
10:41 am
3rd place team?? You most see major injuries coming this year. Pitching wins and on paper it looks great.
fsugolf8166
December 23rd, 2009
10:41 am
ray pugh
we talked about this awhile ago hope you remember 1 signing down 2 to go
now we need to sign dye introduce both in atlanta at the same time he can play the outfield relieve glaus and glaus can relieve jones at 3rd
please wren sign dye and if any money left sign derosa
please please please
Sporty Black
December 23rd, 2009
10:42 am
Right on Mr. Stanfill. A man (team) without vision is just walking (playing) aimlessly in the dark (for last place).
fsugolf8166
December 23rd, 2009
10:43 am
or nady
Andrew
December 23rd, 2009
10:45 am
Sporty Black…yes their numbers (Andruw and Glaus) are similar. However, Glaus strikes out far less and doesn’t swing at more down and away breaking balls than Dale Murphy. Also, he doesn’t just shrug his shoulders, grin and priss back to the bench after striking out like Andruw, either.
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
10:46 am
Glaus is every bit as good as Ryan Howard if we want to compare lineups.
Course I just popped some LSD so I could think that.
Randy
December 23rd, 2009
10:50 am
This blog and the AJC generally is such a joke. It’s bad enough that we have to go to other news sources to learn what’s going on with our team. But, for AJC writers to have to use other sources to get perspective on the Vasquez/Cabrera trade is laughable. After our writers blast the Wren and the deal without understanding and addressing the possible next steps and the overall considerations of the players involved, they quote the real experts who do know what’s going on. Funny.
The Vasquez trade was never about Cabrera…it was about the next move or two. Surely, the AJC should have known that. I don’t expect the typically negative, always angry bloggers to understand it, though.
Glaus helps the cause tremendously. The fact is we don’t have $140M to spend. So, this helps.
And angry bloggers….remember the Braves were within a couple games of having the best record in the NL after June. Dumping Kelly and Frenchy and adding a leigt hitting first baseman made the difference. We have all those pieces in place now. And we basically sub Huddy for Vasquez.
Will still be tough in 2010 to beat Phils and Mets, but we’ve got better pitching 1 thru 5. We’ll be competitive. And short of adding $30 or $40M in salary, Wren is doing a good job.
Of course, I do agree with Bradley that we need a rich, committed owner….
Mel
December 23rd, 2009
10:50 am
In 03, the last time the Braves made the playoffs and the last year the braves had Mad Dog, we won 101 games and had some pretty good boppers: Lopez, Chipper, Shef, and Andrew. Smoltz was one hell of a closer and we had Russ Ortiz, he actually won 21 games that year…21. We ended up losing to the Cubs in the NLDS, but what got my attention and brought back memories was what ‘DUK said in his “Big League Stew”:
“And yet despite all those factors the Braves’ year ended like so many others before it — in a first-round series loss in front of apathetic home fans who allowed Turner Field to become overrun by carpooling Cubs fans from Chicago.”
Just maybe we get the team that mirrors our support.
FRANK CASTELLANA, JR
December 23rd, 2009
10:51 am
I like that we are trying. I like we are a baseball team with both good and bad mangt. What I do not like is WHO ARE WE ? I like being crafty and smart and we are. The question I really have is are we a PLAYER ????
What are we going to do about 1B, 3B, RF, LF, ????? Let’s see something of moves that we can PLAY WITH……
kurula
December 23rd, 2009
10:52 am
i’m pretty sure that this trade will be viewed as a big flop unless/until vizcaino turns out to be the stud they think he may be. i wouldn’t mind working a trade with cabrera. sould, in fact, like to see some of those names on a braves jersey. but i think trading schafer is the wrong thing to do. the guy was hurt last year after a really good start. i’d like to see him at least one more (injury free) season.
MAD-DONNA
December 23rd, 2009
10:56 am
…guess Bobby is gonna leave da Braves da same way he found dem; one of da worst teams in baseball!
Sporty Black
December 23rd, 2009
10:57 am
@ Andrew:
Glaus stikes out less than Andruw Jones, YET Glaus puts up worse power numbers, go figure. “Also…just shrug his shoulders, grin and priss back to the bench after striking out…” obviously does not figure into power numbers. I’m not saying it was not time for Andruw to go, Glaus is just a STATICALLY worse player.
Now, as far as you being an Andruw Jones hater, that’s on you. I can’t help he did not live up to the offensive hype that we ALL expected.
Jackets2009
December 23rd, 2009
10:58 am
If a deal for a power hitter is easy, why didn’t Frank do that last year instead of Kawakami? The best player for us in the deal is three years away, assuming he keeps on developing.
We could have brought Hanson up and not signed Kawakami.
I hate helping the Yankees get better.
They also have the option of signing Vazquez after a year.
The deck is stacked in MLB.
I like sportz
December 23rd, 2009
10:59 am
The Braves are close to a deal with Troy Glaus and he is expected to play first base.
Herschel Talker
December 23rd, 2009
11:01 am
Now we have a disgraced former (and very likely current) roid/HGH user on our team. It just keeps getting worse.
Kasim Reed
December 23rd, 2009
11:03 am
Troy Glaus? Never heard of ‘em!!
OrlandoDawg
December 23rd, 2009
11:06 am
what would it take to get a Matt LaPorta? He’s been dealt so many times already, it’s not like teams are willing to hold onto him. I would’ve rather traded for prospects and signed a Josh Willingham of sorts…
j
December 23rd, 2009
11:07 am
I could give a rats @ss about Glaus unless he comes with a time machine to get us back to when he was good. What, was Bonds not available? Get our ace back. He is not going to do well for the Yanks. He thrived in Atlanta and I am sure he would much rather be here than that dump of a city.
The last Boy Scout
December 23rd, 2009
11:08 am
This is what really happined; The Braves way over spent on D Lowe (Nobody in baseball would pay what the Wren spent on this over-the-hill pitcher)and management said, Dump some funds Now or else. He dumped the Braves best pitcher last year and will NOT get into any biding for Dammon or anybody else. Face facts the Braves’ Management is more focused on bottom line than winning World Series.
raleighbravefan
December 23rd, 2009
11:13 am
You guys need to chill. Wren’s work is not finished. Wait and see the team that breaks camp in March.
JV was a great pitcher for us for 1 year. He has never had 2 great years in a row. We will see what kind of year he has this year. He also would be a FA in 1 year. Who would you trade? Obviously there was no market for Lowe or KK. Would you trade JJ, Hanson or Hudson? (isn’t Hudson a 5/10 guy?) Do you think with your speculation, that you could make a better trade than Wren and the Braves organization when they know the FACTS of what was available.
We traded JV for the starting center fielder for the defending champs who have an unlimited budget. He’s not Holliday, but he’s not a throw away either. We also got a lefty who is cheap, young, and may improve a lot, and one of the top pitching prospects in MLB. We also got whoever we get with the $9M we free up.
We still have money AND trading pieces, INCLUDING Melky. Why don’t you at least wait and see what all the moves are before you say things like “dumbest trade ever” and predicting doom. Even if you don’t like Wren, remember that JS is looking over his shoulder. I’m sure he has been involved in every decision. Some of you still think Ted Turner owns the team.
By the way, Don, Cox was the GM who built the teams of the early 90’s.
Ernest
December 23rd, 2009
11:21 am
Good comments by Randy @10:50am. I was also surprised to see the ‘ranked’ as one of the worst trades by Frank Wren on the same day that it was made. Seems the AJC writers were attempting to appeal to fringe fans/bloggers than those who know something about baseball.
Tami
December 23rd, 2009
11:21 am
I’m willing to go along with the possibility that getting Cabrera could now mean a Cabrera trade and some cash in a trade for an actual bonafide outfielder like Holliday, Bay or Damon. I don’t think Wren is finished in dealing yet, and will be semi-surprised if Cabrera is still with the team at the beginning of spring training.
I’m not ready to comment yet about getting Glaus. I’ve heard his name a lot, but I’m not sure what kind of player we actually have yet since he’s recovering from surgery. Obviously, it does mean a definite no to keeping LaRoche, which is very disappointing. To me, all the offseason moves thus far have been for a lot of maybes, semi has-beens, and recyclables. I certainly hope that this does not mean pure disaster for the 2010 season.
EW
December 23rd, 2009
11:25 am
Stop blasting the journalists on a BLOG. Blogs are discussions, not legitimate news sources. It’s like comparing TMZ to ABC news. Both may be informative, but one is for primarily for entertainment. That’s why you see MB and JS quote ESPN, this is purely a discussion forum. If you want to read stories, go read them. And MB is not and investigative journalist, he’s a writer who gathers information from multiple source/stories and writes about them. It’s not his job to break news.
nelson
December 23rd, 2009
11:26 am
For me a good change , atlanta went gaining , of all forms melky is not el salvador is a good signature by atlanta have not yet completed . for my good change
Random
December 23rd, 2009
11:28 am
Transaction Analysis Blog
The Vazquez Trade
by Christina Kahrl, Baseball Prospectus
Traded RHP Javier Vazquez and LHP Boone Logan to the Yankees for RHP Arodys Vizcaino, LHP Mike Dunn, and OF-S Melky Cabrera. [12/22]
So it’s all about the money, or money management, or soul-less bean-counting. Really? I guess what I find silly is the proposition that the Braves are being cheap, and that somehow that’s what’s killing them. It’s easy to say, but I guess I don’t buy the logic, let alone the emotion.
For example, let’s go back and look at what they did with the relief exchange. They elected to bring in Billy Wagner and Takashi Saito for at least $10.2 million before they had to deal with the Rafael Soriano imbroglio. You don’t get Wagner and Saito and Soriano; they were operating with an either/or proposition, and they’d picked Wagner and Saito, making the mistake of thinking they’d get draft picks for Soriano. In retrospect, you can wish they’d have gone for Wagner and Soriano, and gone sans Saito, because we can pretend to know they’d have spent just $1.7-4 million more or so (Saito’s incentives put the final bill in doubt for the next 11 months). Obviously, that wasn’t the path they took, but that decision was made before Soriano accepted arbitration, which is why it’s speculative to suggest they’d have gotten Soriano at the same price the Rays got him to agree to; maybe he does, and maybe Soriano goes to the hearing, and that probably costs you more than $7.25 or $7.5 million. Claiming to know doesn’t make it so, and one of the easiest mistakes to make in the market is to overpay for relief pitching, even allowing for Soriano’s performance while healthy.
Instead, I’d argue that what’s in play here is less the question of expense as much as it is about preference. The Braves preferred to have Tim Hudson back over banking on Vazquez, signing him to a three-year deal after the year. Can you blame them? Consider the two pitcher’s performance records via SNWP and SNLVAR, to give both a rate and a counting stat:
Hudson Vazquez
Year SNWP/SNLVAR SNWP/SNLVAR
2009 .519/1.0 .608/7.4
2008 .593/4.5 .493/3.3
2007 .600/7.9 .552/5.3
2006 .471/3.5 .488/2.7
2005 .563/5.3 .511/4.1
2004 .570/5.1 .497/3.2
I can’t say the Braves made a mistake here. Age isn’t a big factor, but Hudson is a year older. As we know, Hudson’s 2009 was abbreviated by injury, and his 2006 isn’t cause for joy, but he’s supposed to be healthy, thus the three-year deal. The Braves didn’t get to trade Vazquez for what he was in ‘09, any more than they can bank on what he was in ‘09 being what they’d get in 2010. Vazquez’s recent swings from valuable to exasperating are a matter of record, with the recent peaks still separated by another one of his trenches, which doesn’t help a proposition that selling high is going to yield maximum return. It’s one year of a reliably unreliable starting pitcher, equally capable of greatness or making his manager a Maalox junkie. Not finding a rube willing to give you everything for Christmas because he thinks Vazquez is suddenly going to be reliable does not make you a badly run franchise, it instead reflects a smarter marketplace and a potentially more contrained range of possible actions.
Consider what else has been in play this winter. The Braves also wisely preferred to skip on all of those tasty rumors that put Jair Jurrjens somewhere else. They understandably couldn’t find anyone excited about adding a back-end rotation starter like Kenshin Kawakami in December, when the market’s awash in that sort. Nobody wanted to take on Derek Lowe’s deal (which I guess was cheap of them to sign… or perhaps not so much). So you don’t get Hudson and Vazquez, you have to pick, and the Braves had already, picking Hudson. We can backbite on why they spent to bring Kawakami over, but we can also kibitz on why they spent so much on Lowe (which was congratulated as a good idea a year ago, not unreasonably). We can fidget on why they spent on bringing Tom Glavine back, only to end up not employing him. And we can second-guess why they traded for Vazquez in the first place last winter, pretending to know that they were going to flip him a year later. I didn’t, but I liked the deal for both parties then. In retrospect that trade’s boiling down to Tyler Flowers and far-off Santos Rodriguez for two years of control of Vazquez, plus assorted party favors. At the time, concerns over Flowers’ ability to remain at catcher and the happy having of Brian McCann made Flowers movable. Subsequently, the Sox have the benefit of Flowers’ improved receiving—which was not a guaranteed result last year.
So Frank Wren moved the one year of Javier Vazquez he had at his disposal, and instead of magically answering all of his club’s needs right now this instant in this one trade, they went for considerable upside value. Not with Cabrera, although having him under control for a couple of years and having him available to deal later for a team looking for a center fielder makes him a readily convertible placeholder. If Jordan Schafer doesn’t pan out, the Melky man’s a better alternative for the immediate future than, say, Gorkys Hernandez was going to be before they decided to win in ‘09 by trading Hernandez to the Pirates. Nor is Dunn critical, although his combination of mid-90s heat and a power slider makes him a lefty relief prospect worthy of the name, and someone who could step directly onto the big-league staff and join Eric O’Flaherty in providing quality work from the left side, setting up Wagner in a bullpen that seems to be filling up.
No, the real prize here is Vizcaino’s upside, which basically short-circuits any neat totting up of benefits to issue any final pronouncements, because the Venezuelan’s power assortment of a quality curve and reliable mid-90s heat has only been fired at New York-Penn League ballplayers. I’d just point you towards Kevin Goldstein’s Top 11 Prospects list from earlier today, and suggest that this is someone worth having, someone worth waiting for, and certainly someone you can risk adding on the off chance that you just avoided Vazquez’s next step along his recent Saberhagen-like polar career path.
Similarly, in the same way that we don’t know what Vizcaino’s going to turn into and can’t write the obit of this exchange for perhaps another half-dozen years, as with any work in progress, I think it’s silly to say somebody’s being dumb or not spending enough, and try to use money alone for scorekeeping purposes. Maybe they’re being cheap, and maybe not, and maybe we’ll know better by February. I take it for granted that the Braves aren’t done, and may get in on that corner outfield bat they need; whether that buys time for Jason Heyward to develop or keeps both Melky Cabrera on the bench, that’s certainly worth doing. For the sake of argument, if they wind up with an outfield of Matt Holliday, Nate McLouth, and Heyward, does that mean they’re smart again? Or not smart until Vizcaino blossoms? Or not smart until we see what Vazquez does in his latest veering swing through an inconsistent career?
Now, as a matter of preference, you can prefer Vazquez to giving Hudson a three-year deal. I think the performance records argue against it, but your mileage may vary. Similarly, you can argue for keeping Soriano at an arbitration-generated rate of compensation, but that wasn’t the club’s plan; they’re banking on Wagner and Saito. There might be a pattern of saving some money on their balance sheet for 2010, but until we know if the Braves are done or not, we don’t know if they’re being cheap, or if they aren’t just simply making a few tough choices. Talking about Soriano sort of misses the point, because he was gone as far as their plans were concerned; it took his action of accepting arbitration to re-add him to their menu, however briefly. We can pretend they might have kept [Vazquez], and… what, cut Kawakami? Send Tommy Hanson to Gwinnett? Hope for a better trade in February, when their other actions depend on getting this done now?
Until we see what else the Braves do, I say we see how things play out, and judge Wren’s execution accordingly. Admittedly, I’m giving the Braves a pass until then, but even if nothing else does happen, I think we ought to be judging their elective decision-making in choosing Hudson for three years over Vazquez for one and picking Wagner and Saito as next year’s first-rank relievers on more than just a payroll sheet.
Doug
December 23rd, 2009
11:30 am
Mark,
Did you catch Joe Sheehan’s article at Baseball Prospectus on the Braves/Liberty Media. Pretty much hits the nail on the head.
I think Wren is done unless he can find another cheap outfielder who allows them to keep Heyward in the minors through Memorial Day and push back his arbitration. Just like we did with Hanson last year, which cost us a few early(and valuable) wins.
Let's Go
December 23rd, 2009
11:34 am
Bradley is the type of writer that likes to throw blood in the water to make the sharks go crazy. Braves subject matter isn’t as bad as his UGA – GTECH ones because he can get that feeding freenzy going fast but it’s pretty close.
The way I see it the Braves today are a better team than they were on at the end of the season just from the improvements the Bullpen has made. Lack of runs was a problem but that bullpen caused just as many losses and that problem has been addressed. They still are behind the Phils but I think they are better than the other 3 teams in the division.
Yes, at times last year the Braves had trouble scoring runs and they still have not addressed that problem but at times last year the Braves were knocking the cover off the ball and the key was not hitting home runs but getting runners on base to give the 3-4-5 hitters RBI chances. Instead of a Power hitter the Braves need a true leadoff hitter that gets on base and makes things happen. McLouth admits he is not a leadoff hitter and would rather hit in the 3 or 5 spot. Pardo is not a leadoff hitter but makes contact so fits perfect in the 2 spot. Escobar is too much of a prima donna that can’t play with a hangnail so you don’t know if he will play so you have to bat him 6, 7 , or 8. Matt Diaz too much of a free swinger. Infante, maybe but where do you play him. Cabrera may get the chance early but he is a lot like Diaz with a very wide strike zone.
Even with a power bat the Braves still have a problem at the leadoff spot so all the power in the world is not going to score you runs if no one is on base.
shmoe
December 23rd, 2009
11:34 am
Glaus has huge upside. Sure, he’s recovering from surgery, but he was a gold glove caliber defender at 3rd, and will handle first very well. also, last year aside, he is definitely a slugger. his career batting averages are disappointing however.
heartofdarkness
December 23rd, 2009
11:35 am
Braves are giving Bobby Cox every chance to go out while proving he is among the best managers of all time. Given the Braves will have a solid pitching staff backed up by an old, injury prone, slow, underpowered team in a pitcher’s ball park playing average defense. Bobby cements the deal by finishing at .500 for the season. Every ounce of overstatement from Chip Caray will be necessary to put this exercise in futility in a favorable light. Joe Simpson will probably be gone from the booth by mid-season, moving to the Braves bench as the fourth outfielder, which means the team will be loose and of good attitude.
Really?
December 23rd, 2009
11:36 am
Glaus huh? Another cheap hasbeen who is getting old and his stats have declined every year over the past 5 years. Not to mention he barely played last season due to injury.
Really? Melky and Glaus are going to carry this team to the World Series?
Really?
December 23rd, 2009
11:37 am
Word is the Braves have a call in to Barry Bonds and Reggie Jackson because these guys use to be able to hit the long ball and they are hoping that they still can.
myra
December 23rd, 2009
11:39 am
whos troy glaus?
isnt it supposed to be spelled GAUZE?
as in broke down.
someone said he could back up Hoss.
sounds like Hoss will have to back him up.
give me laconic laroache.
at least he can play defense ….even though he doesnt hit till July.
Baba O'Riley
December 23rd, 2009
11:41 am
So this is the “power bat”? We ARE the Pirates. Welcome back Nick Esasky. Maybe we can sign Rickey Henderson to lead off and play LF. Like Troy Glaus, he was once good too.
mudcat
December 23rd, 2009
11:41 am
Troy Glaus is a great pickup if he stays healthy. Potential 25-30 HR, right-handed bat, slotted 4th in the batting order. Should help Chipper and take some of the pressure off McCann. A 1 year contract with incentives, that’s usually the best kind! Gives Freeman more time.
Baba O'Riley
December 23rd, 2009
11:43 am
Enough of this “Melky was good enough to play for the Yanks” crap. The ONLY reason Melky played for the Yanks is because they didn’t need his bat with their All-Star lineup. We ain’t got an All-Star lineup. melky is a “good fit” for offensively stacked teams. NOT HERE!
myra
December 23rd, 2009
11:43 am
i cant believe i just said id rather have Laroache
i know Chipper would be happier.
bvillebaron
December 23rd, 2009
11:49 am
Bill Stanfill:
Wren has no clear vision? Well, let me try to explain it to you, okay? He had 6 quality starters and needed offense. He tried to trade Lowe rather than Vazquez for money purposes, but wasn’t offered squat. Consequently, he traded Vazquez who becomes a free agent after this season. If this was Vazquez for Melky straight up, I would agree with all the critics here that this was a lousy trade. The fact is he freed up money to address other needs and acquired a 19 year old pitcher who was the Yankees 2nd or 3rd rated prospect. One of the SI writers claims that the Braves made out better in this deal than the Phillies did in the Lee deal. Look at it this way, we still have 5 quality starters (I will take Hudson, Jurrjens, Hanson, Lowe and Kawakami over Halladay, Hamels, Happ, Blanton and god knows who–the ancient mariner, Jamie Moyer and day of the week) and, without considering Vizcaino’s upside, we have Hudson instead of Vazquez and M. Cabrera instead of Francouer. I have said this before and will repeat it again, Hudson ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE a better pitcher than Vazquez. Some of you have become delusional about Vazquez based on last year’s career season. Hudson’s lifetime record is 148-78 whereas Vazquez is 142-139. Hudson has a career ERA of 3.48 and WHIP of 1.26 whereas Vazquez is 4.20 and 1.25. I also would take Cabrera over Francouer, particularly considering how poorly Frenchy played in Atlanta and given the fact that Cabrera is a switch hitter who can play all 3 OF position and has a throwing arm similar to Francouer.
While Glaus is a risk given his injury history, he did make it back to the bigs last September, is still only 33, and hopefully is over his shoulder injury. If healthy, he will be the RIGHT HANDED power bat the Braves need (probably 25 to 30). More importantly, Wren was looking for a 1 year “bridge” to play 1B until Freeman is ready to go in 2011. LaRoche didn’t fit because he is looking for more than a 1 year contract and also is left handed.
Gary
December 23rd, 2009
11:50 am
OK Wren ‘wait and see” apologists. There’s your “big bat”.
TROTTINGHOME
December 23rd, 2009
11:53 am
THANK GOD IT WAS DAVE O’BRIAN WHO REPORTED THE GLAUS SIGNING
Don
December 23rd, 2009
11:56 am
Now we have apparently signed Troy Glaus to play first base – A .250s hitting, high strike out, overweight, injured player coming off serious surgery, who has almost no experience at first base. Remeber that even if he does hit a few home runs, a .250s hitter usually does most of his hitting against the weaker pitching in the league – which means a lot of it in meaningless situations.
Don
December 23rd, 2009
12:00 pm
Until the Vazquez and Glaus moves, I had thought that Wren had done a farily good job (with the exception of keeping Bobby Cox, but his hands are probably tied on this). But these two moves are absurd. Are we sure that Bobby has not taken over as G.M.
F-105 Thunderchief
December 23rd, 2009
12:01 pm
Glaus = expensive and bad.
gcs
December 23rd, 2009
12:05 pm
Have you noticed that the Braves have yet to do the ol’ new-player-introduction-try-on-Braves-jersey-and-cap press conference with Melky? Maybe he’ll get shipped off somewhere else (hopefully).
.
Ted Striker
December 23rd, 2009
12:07 pm
Methinks Mark has access to a lot of links requiring registration.
raleighbravefan
December 23rd, 2009
12:07 pm
Gary and Don – Wren still has money and trading pieces. Why don’t you give the man a chance. Cox said last night on sirius/xm that there will probably be a big move or moves in the next few days. TAKE A BIG BREATH!
tm
December 23rd, 2009
12:08 pm
FW why do you keep signing 250 hitters? FRANK WREN you SUCK!!!!
Melvin Flowers Macon Georgia
December 23rd, 2009
12:10 pm
Here we go again for another losing season dealing with a bunch of losing owners want spend money and give away great talent for nothing. The Braves will not be a contender no time soon, we will do more booing this season than ever.
Sell the team or spend money to be a contender. Trade Derrick Lowe he got to go………………………
tm
December 23rd, 2009
12:10 pm
Frank Wren Sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Frank Wren Sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Frank Wren Sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Frank Wren Sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Robert Nephew
December 23rd, 2009
12:11 pm
The really inexplicable moves to me were the resigning of Hudson, and the signing of Wagner. If we had just let Hudson go, we’d have the same $8-9 million we do now for another bat, and we’d still have Vazquez. If we had passed on Wagner, we could have kept Soriano, who is younger and better than Wagner, and wound up costing about the same as Wagner. I just don’t see how Wren’s hasty decisions to resign Hudson and to sign Wagner have helped this team at all — they just painted him into a corner by leaving him with six starters and three potential closers.
bvillebaron
December 23rd, 2009
12:17 pm
Robert Nephew:
Just let Hudson go? Are you serious man? I will take Hudson over Vazquez any day and they got him for less money. I realize Wagner is older, but please don’t tell me Soriano (who also had his health issues at a much younger age and really only pitched one full year with the Braves which just happened to be the year he became arbitration eligible) is better than a healthy Wagner.
raleighbravefan
December 23rd, 2009
12:17 pm
Don – Again I will remind you that Cox was the GM that put together most of the team that went worst to first in 1991.
Random
December 23rd, 2009
12:48 pm
Christina Kahrl’s BP article that I posted earlier at 11:28 am was apparently in response to the following:
[Baseball] Prospectus Today
The Braves’ New World
by Joe Sheehan
I miss Ted Turner. Turner was controversial, brash, difficult, prone to mistakes of commission, prone to getting himself suspended, prone to making people really, really dislike him. Turner, however, had one trait that you had to respect: he wanted to win. Perhaps I value that too highly—I’m hypercompetitive myself, perhaps my worst trait—but I can forgive a lot of things if they’re done in a sincere effort to succeed.
I’m thinking about Turner today as I watch his Braves, owned by something called “Liberty Media,” actively lessen their chance at success in an effort to ensure that they have positive cashflow in 2010. Last week, the team gave away reliever Rafael Soriano, who has been dominant when healthy and would have been available to them on a one-year deal for about $8 million, for a lesser reliever, Jesse Chavez, with a 3.91 career ERA… at Triple-A. It’s 4.48 in the majors, in 82 innings, and he just turned 26 last season. We can baseball-talk all we want about Chavez’ K/BB ratio last year or Soriano’s injury history, but the trade was a salary dump. Liberty Media didn’t want to pay the money, and forced the Braves and Frank Wren to make the deal, and if it wasn’t quite that explicit, it didn’t need to be.
Today, we get the latest example of why Liberty’s ownership of the Braves is starting to make Jeffrey Loria’s stewardship of the Marlins look inspired. With six starting pitchers after the healthy return of and contract agreement with Tim Hudson, the Braves have been looking to strike a deal all winter that would swap a starter for a hitter. With little outside interest in Derek Lowe, however, the Braves instead executed another salary dump, trading their best pitcher last season, Javier Vazquez, also with one year left on his deal, to the Yankees for Melky Cabrera. There are prospects involved on both sides, but the lesson is the same: the Braves made themselves worse entirely so that Liberty Media wouldn’t possibly have to use the red font in its spreadsheets. Vazquez makes $11.5 million in 2010, Cabrera will make about $4 million, maybe a little less (I’m guessing here, because of Cabrera’s arbitration eligibility). That’s $7.5 million in Liberty’s pockets, on top of the $7.5 million they saved on Soriano, for $15 million saved in two trades that make the team worse by maybe four games, maybe more, in 2010. Not that four wins is pretty much the difference in making the playoffs and not in the NL just about every season, and not that Liberty Media cares. They care that the Braves have positive cashflow, and everything else is irrelevant.
This stinks, and it doesn’t stink because the Yankees just added an expensive player. It stinks because there’s no reason why the Braves had to make either trade other than that Liberty Media wants this division of its billon-dollar conglomerate to spend a certain amount of money, and no more than that. It doesn’t matter that the $15 million these deals saved may, perhaps will, be used to pay a Jason Bay or a Matt Holliday next year; that’s a pretty good use of the money by a team that missed the playoffs in 2009 because it went cheap in left field. The Braves could well have made both the investment in a left fielder and kept its best starting pitcher and best reliever, counting on on-field success to produce returns at the gate that pay for those investments or even return a profit on them.
This is the way you run a baseball team: you make investments in the on-field product that are to some extent speculative, and you do so knowing that the only thing that brings people to a park, eyeballs to a screen, is winning. When you win, you collect the return on the investment you make. This has been true for decades in baseball, and it remans so today, as the Phillies could no doubt explain if you could hear them over the ringing of the cash registers. Hell, it’s been true in business for centuries, but for some reason we hear talk about “budgets” and decide that Major League Baseball teams are exempt from the normal practices of business. You make investments with an eye towards maximizing returns, and everything else—pointing to the Yankees, whining about the arbitration process, demonizing Scott Boras, lying about revenues—is just a distraction from that central point.
A corporate owner with no ties to baseball doesn’t want that kind of risk, however. A corporate owner with no ties to baseball looks at last year’s revenues, last year’s expenses, sets a budget that locks in a certain amount of profit, and runs away. For years, men and women owned baseball teams and ran them as businesses, but they also acted in a way that acknowledged the truth about the job, that owning the team carried intangible benefits that owning a factory or a grocery store or a car dealership didn’t. Owning the team provided a level of attention that had value, and owning a winning team made that all the better. Liberty Media, however, isn’t going to bask in the glow of ownership or success, so there are no intangible benefits. Liberty Media doesn’t even own the Braves because it wanted to add a baseball team to its portfolio; it owns them because there was a tax advantage to taking them in exchange for their Time Warner stock. I think A. Bartlett Giamatti wrote a poem about this back in the 1980s.
It’s not that we should be surprised by Liberty’s behavior. It’s that we should be shaming Bud Selig for allowing this to happen on his watch. Time and again, Selig has made it clear that he doesn’t want owners he cannot control, owners who will put winning above adhering to an industry-wide effort to tamp down labor costs. Just to name one example, he has repeatedly worked to keep Mark Cuban from owning a team, while blithely allowing a Liberty Media into the fold. Can there be any question but that Cuban would be a better owner, for both the fans of a given team and the industry as a whole than Liberty has been? Selig prefers the latter, which tells you so very much about how he views baseball.
This, the ongoing creep of bad ownership situations, is the industry’s biggest problem. The effects of ownership disconnected from the on-field success of the team permeate deeper and have longer-lasting negative effects than anything else within the game. The PED “problem” is a hangnail compared to the tumor that is Liberty Media, owning a team solely because there was a tax advantage for doing so, running that team like a corner grocery, passing on the opportunity for success because that opportunity comes with the risk of a loss along the lines of 10 percent of team revenue, or maybe a tenth of a percent of Liberty Media’s bottom line. Selig’s eagerness to see this kind of ownership in the game, moving the owners further along the path from competitors to partners, has been a huge negative for fans. It’s been particularly bad for fans of the Braves, essentially a ward under Liberty; or the Astros, with Drayton McLane signed on to the idea of draft slots; or the Marlins, who spent 15 years operating with one goal: get a half-billion dollars of your tax dollars into their pockets.
The difference between the Yankees and the Braves isn’t revenue. The difference between the Yankees and the Braves is ownership priorities. If MLB had 30 owners like the Steinbrenners or Arte Moreno or Mike Ilitch, the game wouldn’t be perfect, but it would be a damn sight better than it is now, because an ownership group that wants to win is a fan’s best friend. Liberty Media, which had $10 billion in revenue (warning: PDF) in 2008, decided that the Braves could only spend so much money in 2010, no matter how close the team might be to a championship. For that decision, Frank Wren has had to make two trades that will cost them three to five wins, wins that, given their team and the competition, could well be the difference between making the playoffs and not. Even replacing those wins by signing Bay or Holliday just leaves them where they were, instead of making a real charge at a winnable division.
The Braves’ decision is even more frustrating when you consider that the Phillies made a huge blunder in valuing $9 million instead of Cliff Lee’s services, a ridiculous decision that will cost them about five to six wins in 2010 (the approximate gap between Lee’s value and that of Jamie Moyer). The Phillies managed to turn acquiring Roy Halladay into a marginal upgrade, leaving the door open for the Braves to steal the division by making smart moves. Instead, the Braves dumped a pitcher well worth his contract for an outfielder who doesn’t have the bat to be an everyday left fielder, and doesn’t solve the Braves’ biggest problem, which is the need for an impact hitter. I’m starting to think that the new market inefficiency is having the phone numbers of general managers in the NL East.
Baseball is in trouble, but not for the reasons you think. It’s not in trouble because a handful of teams make and spend a lot of money. It’s in trouble because a handful of teams are run by people or entitites who really couldn’t care less about baseball. You want to tell me that the Pirates or Nationals or Royals should have a $40 million payroll, well I’m right here with you. Bad teams with no hope of being good in the short term should hoard cash until such time as spending it will make a difference. There are haves and have-nots, but what some “have” are owners motivated by the prospect of on-field success. Every fan deserves that, but until Bud Selig agrees, we’re going to be stuck with some teams trying harder than others to win, some trying less, and everyone getting what they deserve.
Hank44
December 23rd, 2009
8:31 pm
The way things are going so far this winter, why not bring back Smoltz.
erik
December 25th, 2009
4:11 pm
ya
Neil
December 29th, 2009
10:33 am
I’ve been following the Braves since 1956 and they are a good and capable organization. They have had different owners and managers over the years and they have caused (guess what)different occurences. We however find ourselves here 2009/10 with Bobby Cox and Frank Wren. I mostly don’t care for Cox’s style but he is not stupid nor does he have a lack of exper. He also wants to go out a winner. I like Wren alot. Last year we yelled over pitching and he built it up and made Atlanta noticable. He took that pitching and traded one that is a solid pitcher with a career year and has started to make us better yet again. This is to be the year that we get hitters whereas last was pitching. (remember we have to do this slowly and on a budget and with the guess in mind as to when do our two major rookies come into play). Melky offers alot to us if we keep him and was good enough to start with the Yankees for several years. He is 25 and runs as well as Diaz or better, much younger and less expensive. Oh yeah and switch hits and plays better D. I like Diaz but thats the fact. Atlanta has not finished yet and will never get everyone that we want them to get. Glaus is a gamble with major upside and his age, size and exper. will make Chipper better. Our young rookie outfielder will arrive at about the same time as last year and will have the same effect. We will still pick up one more mid to older major hitter for a year or two rental. All the while building a drop dead major pitching staff only a few years away with a 5 tool outfielder and a sleek fielding 1b both that can hit. We are slowing making our way back with half the financing as many.
Neil
December 29th, 2009
10:59 am
and what is all of this about Damon. He has no arm whatsoever, is 37-38 and hits well at hitter friendly Yankee playground, and you list him as a dream for us to answer our hitter prob. with. My gosh you should read your own articles and give up drinking.
Darrel Ormes
December 30th, 2009
11:27 am
Mark: I believe the braves had a good fill in David Ross. 128 at bats, 9 homers. If given 500 at bats, he would average 35 for the year. He would have been cheaper and I believe had filled there need. Lowe had 15 wins, average for him, I would have dumped the pitcher from Japan. Medlin would be a great fill in if needed. 2011 is coming very soon. I would strongly think of a new manager now. I would hire John Smothz as manager, Pitching coach Tom Glavine: Hitting coach: Chipper Jones, Bench coach: Dale Murphy. Completely new, and a fire that would help in an area vital to a team. Think hard on this. If you have the ear of the powers to be, lobby for them. I love your sports writting.
Darrel Ormes
December 30th, 2009
11:28 am
Ross would have been at first base.