5 questions about the Braves, a couple involving Soriano

I agree on Wagner — no reason to believe he’s going to be worth the commitment. And we need LaRoche back. I’m betting we keep Lowe, and he’s the closer by the All-Star Break.

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If these moves concern you Mark, wait till he replaces the Legend next off season.

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There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.
And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord . And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord Isaiah 11:13 Merry Christmas!

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The Braves did not want to pay Sariano long-term money due to his injury issues. I am sure they thought some team would and that he would not accept arbitration. If they knew what they knew now, I am sure they would have not signed Wagner. But they didn’t, and Wagner is just as good as Soriano for one or two years. And the Braves got a decent middle reliever in the deal. So it worked out OK. Soriano was good, but Wagner is a better closer. Period. Francour was horrible as a Brave. Glad he is gone. The one I do not understand is LaRouche. Who plays first? Diaz? The Braves will finish 3rd, 4th, or 5th this year without a first baseman like LaRouche.

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A year from now they will be saying “Mama’s gone”.

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they did the right thing with RS as he is flirting with TJ surgery have you noticed his mechanics. that said usually nowdays players return from TJ stronger than ever so id rather have BW for the next few years.

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I thought you had decided to start exploring more reasonable life experiences, life being a Grateful Cathead… Following the Cats all around the Nation…

FOr some strange reason, Braves fan have started to treat Lowe like he is a reincarnation of Russ Ortiz… LaRoche, well you it is too obvious for the Braves to see that he plays his best here… Congratulations on missing bizarre world 1009.

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Good responses (especially you, Chef), bad column. Mark, you left out several key facts…
1. How many saves did Soriano blow last year? He was far from a sure thing. Wagner is an upgrade, at a cheaper price.
2. Wren knows LaRoche wants a high price AND more years. By not offering arbritration, Wren hopes to get him (or someone else) cheaper. This isn’t New York…he’s not operating with an unlimited budget.
3. Mark, Lowe is on the market because the Braves have 6 starters. They’re not trading JJ or Hanson. Hudson was just signed, at a relatively low price. Vasquez had a great year. Who would take Kawakami’s big contract? Trading Lowe would free up money to sign your buddy LaRoche.
4. Church had to be dropped only when Soriano re-upped. That basically makes it a Frenchy for Soriano trade…not bad. Or Frenchy for whoever that sign with Soriano’s salary slot…the new setup guy. TampaGator is right: Frenchy was horrible as a Brave, the worst hitting position player in the bigs. The Braves improved just by getting rid of him.
5. We were all happy last year that Wren was being open with who he was chasing. A year ago we didn’t know Junior and Furcal would stink in 2009, that Peavy would get hurt. There are reasons the Braves are letting Gonzo and Soriano walk. Hindsight is always 20/20.

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1. Hindsight is 20/20 Mark. The Braves and everybody else thought Soriano would not agree to arbitration.

2. You are right about keeping Laroche

3. Which pitcher are they supposed to trade? Lowe makes the most sense because of his high salary.

4. You didn’t offer any alternative to what Wren did in trading for Church. What was he supposed to do? Francouer needed to go and it wasn’t like there was much of a market or they wouldn’t have traded him to someone in their division.

5. That’s a little harsh isn’t it. Could anyone predict that Peavy was going to have that kind of year? ‘

It wasn’t who made some bad trades that have come back to haunt this team. Those 5 players for eixera and the one with St. Louis: Wainwright for J.D. Drew…………………

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trust in Wren. we all gave him hell for the Smoltz/Glavine deal but look how pitching ended up last year. still waiting for the “big bat” deal that’s supposed to boost our outfield. maybe freeman is ready to go at 1B.

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Talent is all about prediction…the “basebal know it alls” base it on past performance only. Schuerholz knew when to “retire.’ When Tommy, John and Greg were gone. Frank Wren guesses about talent like everyone else does 50/50 . People here predict that Jeff Francouer would always suck – but the Mets have guessed differently. I’m with the Mets and I hope he tears it up this year because I love the Braves but I despise many of these Brave fans.

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I hate to say it but you are so right, M.B., these moves make no sense to me. Now we have 2 old guys in the bullpen instead of a young Soriano and Gonzo. I am one of the few who isn’t desperate for a “big bat” for this team. We were hitting well down the stretch once they let Matty D play every day and I love the chemistry of this team. Fix Mac’s eyes and we are good to go. I would love to have DeRo back but only if he doesn’t take away playing time from Matty D. DeRo is at the end of his career and can still hit while being invaluable playing many different positions. If Heyward is ready to start season in right, great, plug Matty D in at left. Nate in center and Jordon backing up them. I just don’t think they’re going to pay out for Roachy which is a shame. Great player, excellent 1st baseman. Frank Wren is a big idiot in my opinion and nothing he’s done has changed my mind on that. Good luck unloading D. Lowe, unfortunately, it will probably be Javy that goes. Big Mistake.

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here is the data on Diaz vs JF for 09

JF 157 games = 15 hr 76 rbi 280 ba 309 obp

MD 125 games = 13 hr 58 rbi 313 ba 390 obp

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I think the Braves organization knows that starting pitching is not a concern this year anyway. Until Cox is gone, our starters could have a no hitter going through 5 innings and he will start warming up Mahoney, I mean Soriano.

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Soriano was awful in crucial situations last year. Do you remember the game ending homer to the prolific Ross Gload? Wagner has proven he saves big games season after season.
Why not trade Vasquez now? Lowe was fairly solid and as a number 3 starter he might be better than a number 1. Vasquez was great but has never had great back to back seasons, trade him while his value is high.

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It is easy to say LaRoche should stay when we only saw his second half. Lest we forget, he’s pretty much a second half hitter so we saw a much more productive hitter than we’d see for a full season. Perhaps we can find someone who produces the full season because that’s what we need with our limited offense.

Closers are a gamble at best so you pick your hand and don’t wait for hand to pick you. Starting pitchers are a premium, but we don’t have the budget to keep 6. I don’t really see a better alternative than Lowe so you can argue why to keep him, but you can’t really give a good option to replace that which gives us more for a hitter and less impacts our pitching.

Dumping Church says he didn’t deliver and doesn’t have anything to do with Frenchy directly. As has been said, you don’t hold him just to say you had value from the Frenchy deal. You’re better off to take that money and use it wisely. We need money for good players not warm bodies.

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I read where Cox said we are going after a big bat with the article on Heyward. Huh?

If the Braves organization thinks they can beat the Phils just adding Heyward and possibly some middle level jorneyman OF like Nady, they are fooling themselves and it will be time for me to go elsewhere for entertainment.

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Hey, I ain’t Swiss cheese here, pal. I’m younger and better looking than Soriano, in addition to my killer curveball.

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Atticus, I base all my decisions on making you happy. Call me.

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Earlier,someone said the Braves only concentrate on pitching and not hitting except when we got Gary Sheffield? Ya, that worked out well. Sheff had 3 hits in two postseasons .063 and .143. that worked out well. I’m worried about Wagner also. I hope he isn’t our next Bruce Sutter who blew out his arm after he signed a BIG $10 Mill contract. I worked radio then and tried to interview him. He said,” I don’t talk on days I don’t pitch.” I guess he talks alot now.lol Go Braves.

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6th Important question:

Why does Mark Bradley continue to get paid $$$ to write stupid columns?

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Uh, OK Jam, you’re out.

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Bradley<

You obviously did not watch Sorianon blow saves and reduce 3 and 4 run leads to 1-run leads by giving up homers under pressure.

Thoose of us fans who did are not surpridsed Soriaano is gone and would be disappointed inthe extreme if he started 2010 as a Brave.

Aside from his scowl, Soriano had no intensity, no real determination to win. He just wnet out and threw gas, which was too often flat or wild.

As for Jeffy Francouer. No regular Braves fan who saw his abysmal lack of plate coverage and 2 and 3 strikeouts per game (and 0 walks) in 2007, 2008 and the first half of 2009 was and remains anythig but happy with Francouer's departure.

That Jeffy got his groove swing back the last half of 2009 is fine with us, but at least the Braves don't have to watch his unbearably long slumps anymore. Same for Kelly Johnson. When they were hot, oit was fun to watch, but they became hot less and less for shorter and shorter periods oof time. When Bobby Cox finally decides to bench a regular, it is at least 15-18 months late.

Church had promisem byut Yunnel Escobar's knee had done more damage than we knew and Braves doctors said he was ikay. CHurch's failure does not in any way diminish the courage and decisiveness Wren exhibited in pulling the trigger to deal Francouer.

If Francuer's hitting is transformed by thee trade, good for him. But, for the Braves to keep him and have him and Terry Pendleton squabbling in the epaper about the effectiveness of TP' hitting coach tips was certainly an untenable siutuation.

personaly, I think TP needs to be gone too, but unfortunately for the braves' future TP seems to be the Manager in waiting. which is the scariest thought I've had in years.

TP was a great player, but he lacks the patience or the teaching skills to handle and bring along youneg talent.

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Jam – If you feel that way, why do you care enough to read the blog?

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Age doesn’t mean as much as performance, and each person is different. HOW OLD IS MARIANO R.? I think Wagner is a better bet than “always hurt” Soriano. By the way, many pitchers have returned strong from TJ surgery.

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Mark is right on the money with all his points. It sometimes seems that the Braves only want those kind of guys that Cox can rely on not to make waves. (Escobar’s talent alone keeps him around but for how long?)

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Bullwinkle – 1 reason $$$$$$$$$$

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As always (for some unexplained reason) like the other AJC Writers, you fail to ask the most significant question to the success of the Braves. — Why is Bobby Cox still here? It seems obvious that Frank Wren does not have the authority to fire him. Cox’s incompetency is obvious beyond words. You question Frank Wren but ignore the incompetency and blunders of Bobby Cox game after game after game. This is not to say that your questions relating to Wren are not valid; but compared to Bobby Cox, he is a model GM; and his negative effects on the team are nothing compared to Cox.

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If a basketball player averages 6 points in the first half and 14 in the 2nd half of each game, he is an 20 ppg player. A valuable commodity.

If LaRoche averages .280 and 25 hrs for a year, is not valuable.

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Trade Wren. Wouldn’t it be interesting to allow Bobby Cox to put a team together before he retires as manager and starts his “consulting” role. MB …..all of your questions are “right on”.

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1) Soriano has been hurt 3 times in the last 6 years. Wagner once. Wagner may be older, but he’s as likely, if not more likely, to actually be healthy in 2010. Chronically injured players do NOT suddenly start staying healthy for extended periods of time. And if health is app. equal, to pretend Soriano is anywhere close to Wagner as a closer is delusional. 3/4 of one season does not make Soriano somehow better than a guy with almost 400 saves in his career and who showed app. the same fastball post-surgery as pre-surgery.

2) Money. Braves have app. $4-5MM (if payroll is at $95MM) + salary of traded away SP to find a 1B and an OF. LaRoche at $9MM severely limits options. And if Soriano was 50-50 to accept arb based on how few top tier closers on the market, LaRoche would be even higher based on how many mid-tier 1B options are on the market.

3) Money. See 2). Moving Lowe gives more flexibility in 2010 and beyond. If Braves have to eat more than $3MM this year, they’re better off trading Vazquez (and they get a greater return). Doesn’t help in 2011-2, but if Lowe bounces back at all, his contract is less of a hinderence as well.

4) Without the trade, Francoeur is the one who was non-tendered, not Church. The deal was a nothing for a possible something. That the something also turned into nothing was no loss.

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I like the Wagner deal but given his age and the surgery I do have some concern about his capability to last and be effective over a complete season. I was hoping that he would share the closing job with Soriano. Now, who will that be? Maybe Chavez?

I think you can never have too many pitchers and am not sold on Kawakami as a starter. That said, the Braves need a bat more right now and it appears that moving Lowe is the least of evils.

Vasquez is exactly what we thought he would be; an innings eater who gives you a chance to win and allows you to use your pen less. Based on this, I would not trade him.

By moving Lowe (or any other starter) the Braves are banking on Hudson being strong enough to last a season; an unknown given his surgery.

The Braves are also hoping Kawakami can become the starter he was supposed to be. Maybe being a fifth starter will give him the time to develop.

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We did not get “nothing” for Frenchy. We got some performance out of Church. YOU COULD NOT PREDICT THAT HE WOULD BE HURT. AT LEAST HE WAS NOT LAST IN THE LEAGUE IN BATTING AVERAGE. What we really gained is what we would be paying Frenchy if he was still on the team. If we non-tendered him, we would be in the same place we are now. He may make a great comeback, but that wasn’t happening with us.

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Mark, I think we’ll be seeng less and less of what Cox wants (KJ, Norton) and more of what the team needs now that the retirement is set.. I know you love Bobby, but even you saw the idiocy of Norton…. I think Wren has done a remarkable job since JS retired beginning with getting usout of a bad JS deal by getting something (Kotchman) for Tex and later turning that into a trade for for a red-hot LaRoche. He also got us a good, young CF, and a 3 excellent starting pitchers. With a little more hitting, all of our starters would have had 15-plus wins. If Chipper had hit a lick, we win the wild card race…

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IF you are going to deal Pitching, and that in itself is a big IF; but if you are going to deal Pitching, why in the world are the Braves in such a hurry, why are they creaating the impression that they will deal it for decrease value? Did Pitching all of a sudden become no longer the most valuable and most sought after thing in baseball? With Soriano and Lowe being considered expencable (by them), they were sitting in a great, great position to get exceptional value from other teams. All they had to do was wait and play hard to get. The pressing need for these two Pitchers would develop quickly by one or more teams before of soon after the season begins, probably sighificantly before. Instead they have given Soranio away and have created the impression that Lowe can be had for next to nothing and without paying his full salary. Do you really think that there would not have been a significant demand for a closer or set up man of Soriano’s ability or that no team will be in a position of jumping to take a chance on a Pitcher of Lowe’s background. The way this has been and is being dealt with is unbelievable. The only thing worse has been the decision to keep Booby Cox – but Wren probably did not have the authority to fire him.

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Say you was raised on Dairy Queen and you was a star at every level and then you was Major League and struggling and on the road and away from good Dairy Queen treats and then . . . Bang! You are a New York Mets player and they is no Dairy Queen anywhere close to Citi Field. What do you do? You call old friend Warren Buffet and ask him to build a DQ close by. We are waiting to see what happens.

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However, the question about what they got for Soriano and what they seem to be willing to take for Lowe really misses the point. As badly as they seem to be dealing with this, the point is that they sould not be dealing with it at all. They must not trade away Pitching. One or more of their potential Starters will end up being injured and/or proving to be ineffective. But even more significantly, this is the only slim chance they have of winning the Division with Bobby Cox managing — Have Pitching so far, far superior to the other teams that it overcomes his management procedures and lack thereof and his blunders and enables you to win over the long 162 game regular season schedule in spite of him. This is the way it has always been with him managing. Of course, this great, great pitching did not overcome having Cox as a manager in the short series, as evidenced by his winning only one WS in 14 opportuniites.

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mark, i agree with you about norton. Man, that guy was clutch. I wonder how, every time, the braves were in a clutch situation old man norton was up to bat.

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Don – They would love to keep all the pitching if they had the $$$. How are YOU going to put together a team with the current budget if you spend it all on pitching? We do have 6 starters. If one goes down, we have options for 5th starter, including Medlin and minor leaguers. I believe KK will be better than many think, now that he is accustomed to the US and Braves.

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Why is it the Braves always pursue guys that are at the end of their careers, Wagner & Saito(never heard of him) are pushing 40, who would you rather have as your closer combo, Wagner & Saito, or Soriano & Gonzo??? All are injury prone, but I’ll take the younger guys, guarantee we have bullpen problems again this year, some things never change, maybe next year when Booby is gone to the farm!

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Mark.( I.) Wagner is a lefty that throws Strikes and rarely walks batters, he really replaces Gonzalez who walked too many batters. Saito effectively replaces Soriano because Wagner and Soriano will work in tandem just like Soriano and Gonzalez. Why? Look at Wagner’s Stats against the lefthanders bashers in our division. Utley, Howard, Dunn, Ibanez, Beltran and there is your answer.
(2) What if Wren offered Arbitration to Laroche, he accepted and the arbitrator ruled he was worth $8 million dollars(by the way Laroche is asking for a 3 yr. $31.5 mill contract in free agency, he wasn’t going to stay anyway) and unlike you and me Frank Wren does have to worry about the money. What if he commits to arbitration and can’t clear enough payroll. Does it turn into another Greg Maddox/ Kevin Millwood situation where we have to trade Vazquez to make budget?
(3) Simple: Lowe, while still very good, is 37 years old, makes the most money by far of the pitchers, was the 5th best starter last year and would be the 6th coming into to this season. Most of all, his salary opens up the most money to add hitters which we sorely need with the Phillies in our division. Do you really think the GM’s don’t understand the reason’s why this would be Wren’s most logical play?
(4) Diaz didn’t replace Church in rightfield, until Church got hurt.They were in a platoon situation from the get go, as was The Braves plan when they traded for him. The Trade was made for the benefit of Francoeur and team chemistry. The endless focus on Francoeur’s struggles became a distraction to the whole team. Francoeur had no trade value at the time, his stats and been bad for 2 seasons. Most pundits were amazed the Braves got anything of value for him and his contract.
(5) The Braves decisions don’t take place in a vacumn. Wren, Schuerholz, Bobby Cox and multiple scouts would be consulted before a player was traded for. Most any team in baseball would have liked Jake Peavy, the Braves made a play for him, but backed out when the price was too high. Furcal had come off a very good season(Contract Year) and was only considered, due to the inclusion of Escobar in the Peavy deal and the need for a leadoff hitter. Griffey was not the Griffey of old, but he did play better defense than Anderson, had more Home Runs, a higher OBP and only 2 less RBI’s in 100+ less at bats, so that pair would be a wash at worse.

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raleighbravefan, we was sad to read what you said. Are you constipated this morning?

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Don, the Braves needed to trade Soriano as quickly as possible so they wouldn’t have an 8 million dollar question mark over their heads while they’re trying to put together a team for next year. And I’ve got news for ya, no matter how long the Braves would have waited, they were not going to get much for him, because they had no leverage. It’s still better than not offering him arbitration, in which case they would have gotten absolutely nothing.

Lowe is a different story…I would be surprised if he was traded before Lackey signs somewhere, because Lackey runners-up will be the teams the Braves may be dealing with.

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a friend of mine was traded to pittsburgh in the “laroche to boston” trade. The next week in AA he threw a no hitter. Boston is gonna get a slap in the face for that move one day

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It boggles my mind that so many people seem to be nervous about the back of the bullpen next year. Wagner has a career 2.39 ERA! Saito has a career 2.05 ERA! Soriano’s (2.92) and Gonzalez’s (2.57) ERA’s don’t compare. Yes, they’re both getting older, but where is the decline? Wagner had a 1.72 ERA and struck out 14.9 batters per nine innings after coming back last year. Saito had a 2.43 ERA, which just so happens to be much lower than Gonzalez or Soriano last year.

Both have one year deals, so it’s not like we have to worry about how they decline over the next couple of years. I guess I understand if you’re concerned about how much they’re being payed, because I think all relievers are overpaid, but I don’t see where the concern about their ability and performance comes in.

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It wouldn’t be all bad to keep all 6 starters. As someone mentioned there could be an injury. I have an idea that had been mentioned by another long ago. Take Hudson or Lowe and let them start their regular start and pitch only 5 innings no matter how good they’re doing. Then let Kawakami pitch the last 4. Doesn’t build up the innings on 1 of the starters who as a result could be stronger at the end of the season. Just hoping Chipper is working out and will come back with a better year and we get somebody theat can hit.

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Welcome back Mark. Now why did you leave that Vick Falcon post up all damn week? Man you know how to hurt your fans.
Some good questions , Sometimes the best Trades are the ones not made.That said I still put my faith in Frank Wren doing whats best for Braves to win.

Frenchy, I’m glad he’s gone.

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If it wasnt for the payroll issue, and the fact Wagner is cheaper, and we need to free up money to sign a hitter, we really could have made either Lowe or Vazquez the closer, and kept everyone we currently have. Remember, Derek did have a 40 save season at Boston. I dont know what kind of a closer Vazquez would have been, but John Smoltz had been a starter for 14 years, before he turned into a pretty good closer from 2001-2004.

If Wagner stinks, and the Braves do end up trading Lowe, FW might well regret his decisons come next July or August.

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The Braves are stuck with Derek Lowe’s contract. Nobody in their right mind will take on $45 million owed to an average pitcher at best on the downside of his career. Only Frank Wren rewards the old, over-the-hill players with the big bucks while complaining he has no money to spend on much-needed offense. BRILLIANT !

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If LaRoche takes off, TWO big bats will be needed to make this team competitive. I don’t see TWO big bats out there. Frank Wren is a real genius !

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Speaking of questions about the Braves. How many times have you seen Bobby Cox do/fail to do things that violate even the most simple fundamentals of WINNING, things that no manager would do at any level of baseball. HOW many times HAVE YOU SEED BOBBY COX:
(1) Keep a player in the regular line up on and on and on after it is obvious to any knowledgable fan that he cannot produce.
(2) Keep a player at a set spot in the top part of the batting order when he is in a terrrible prolonged slump.
(3) Fail to move players up and down in the batting order based on who is hot and who is not.
(4) Keep on using a relief pitcher over and over and over when it is obvious that he is not going to be effective.
(5) Keep on using a Pinch Hitter over and over and over when it obvious that he is not going to produce.
(6) Keep a player on the bench when it is obvious that he is far, far better than on of the regulars who he likes and is playing.
(7) Fail to have his hitters work the count and put pressure on a Pitcher at a turning point in the game when it is obvious that the pitcher is out of sinc/ lost his release point etc.
(8) Allow hitters to swing at the next pitch when a pitcher is wild, walking/ hitting men – and get the pither out of trouble instead of putting more pressure on him.
(9) Fail to make the opposing starting pitcher throw a lot of pitches when the team has a weak bullpen.
(10) Overwork his bullpen to the point that it becomes ineffective.
(11) Make no adjustments in his lineup and in his batting order based on the past success or lack of success that hitters have had against a given pitcher.
(12) Make no effort whatsoever to teach, emphasize, demand that his hitters be patient, get good pitches to hit, work the count.
(13) Put no pressure on the opposing pitcher when he is in trouble or at possible key turning points in the game.

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Jason, considering that Wagner is superior to Soriano in every single statistical category, I don’t understand why anyone would want Soriano over Wagner. Wagner strikes out more batters, gives up fewer hits and few home runs, has a lower ERA and a lower WHIP, and has about 350 more saves than Soriano. Soriano has walked slightly fewer batters in his career (2.8 per 9, compared to Wagner’s 3.0), but that’s it. And Soriano has a higher salary with TB, and would have had an even higher one with Atlanta.

What is your reason to preferring Soriano?

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I think exactly like Kenneth so I am just going to post his again:

Kenneth

December 14th, 2009
7:10 am
1. Hindsight is 20/20 Mark. The Braves and everybody else thought Soriano would not agree to arbitration. (still was the right move to offer)

2. You are right about keeping Laroche (can’t believe I agree with MB for once)

3. Which pitcher are they supposed to trade? Lowe makes the most sense because of his high salary.

4. You didn’t offer any alternative to what Wren did in trading for Church. What was he supposed to do? Francouer needed to go and it wasn’t like there was much of a market or they wouldn’t have traded him to someone in their division.

5. That’s a little harsh isn’t it. Could anyone predict that Peavy was going to have that kind of year? ‘

It wasn’t who made some bad trades that have come back to haunt this team. Those 5 players for eixera and the one with St. Louis: Wainwright for J.D. Drew…………………

(MB cheer up, we have a great team that was in contention until the last week of the season last year and that is going to be a contender again, stop seen the glass half empty)

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Mark you have some valid points, I think most of the opposition to your article is due to commenting with the heart and not the mind.

1. Should of kept Soriano. 10 yrs younger, very good reliever (not perfect), and WANTED to be a Brave. Even Rivera was not perfect in saves. Braves need more runs per game, period.

2. Keep LaRoche. Very good LEFT-HANDED POWER hitter. Very good defensive player. Good locker room guy. There is still reservation on the comments he made about fans a few years back; LaRoche only spoke the truth.

3. Lowe is a solid # 3-4 pitcher at this stage in his career. Note: the Braves supported him with runs, it wasn’t that Lowe was dominant. I’d rather keep Kawakami who is just as good but cheaper and go get a BIG bat.

4. Yes, wrong move. Church was known to be absolutely worthless. Francour was billed to be the savior of the Braves and still had trade value. Should of traded for a decent draft pick or minor league player.

5. Don’t know about the “worst instincts.” Wren’s job is also to generate ticket sales and merchandise revenue. Griffy would of done just that. The Braves have not had a true lead-off hitter since……Furcal. Hindsight is 20/20, but I can’t fault Wren on trying for those two.

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Wow thanks for just piling on questions Mark…

You did no good by writing this article, all you did was stir up the emotions of already tender fans…

Did you really want to keep Soriano? A guy who definitely didn’t play with everything he had in every situation last year & who asked to be traded?

You think he’d play like a winner if he asked to be traded?

Frenchy is gone so get over it, my goodness Francoeur couldn’t do anything in the past 3 seasons there was no reason to keep him. Some times someone needs to make the hard decisions.

Oh and by the way you never know what Furcal, Peavy, or Griffey would’ve done in Atlanta. Have you not heard of “change of scenery?”

The only things that I couple possibly agree with you on this is keeping Derek Lowe (although we need a money bat) and keeping LaRoche.

But for the most part, I think you let your emotions get the best of you when you wrote this one…

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We’ll never know for sure, obviously, but I am almost certain there would have never been the great pitching staff you’re referring to without Bobby Cox. Glavine, Justice, and Gant were developed under his watch, he traded for Smoltz, drafted Chipper Jones. You think Maddux would have ever been a Brave if Cox hadn’t dragged the Braves from worst to first in 1991 and 1992? Do you really think Cox being there did not have a positive effect on their performance that made them one of the best pitching staffs in history?

Ultimately the players win and lose the games. Managers manage personalities always, and sometimes games as well. But if you’re looking for a manager that has done more than Bobby Cox, then I think you’re going to be waiting a while.

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I just watched baseball since my playing days ended in high school so I try not to play manager and general manager….I think most people just sit back and spout off about the impossible….. like trade Kelly Johson and Greeg Norton a big hitting first baseman….but you have hit the point on this……… Why would not have Wren said we will have the best 7, 8, and 9th innings and after June we can trade a stopper to fill needs….he acted desparate…. How will you get a fair shake looking to dump a pitcher and cash….Laroche, Kelly Johnson, Francouer and Soriano will have great years and Wagner and Saito will be mediocre. We will get a washed up outfielder/first baseman.

Chipper , no help….We are putting together a team that could have won last year….the phillies are getting better… the braves are hoping……

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Hmm, this entire piece is completely negative.

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Mark, you got some ’splainin’ to do!!

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has anyone else noticed that every single article mark bradley writes is always hindsight, without exception? he never fails to point out the negative aspect of every possible situation involving the braves management of their franchise, AFTER it has already happened. congratulations mark, on monday morning, arm-chair quarterbacking. you are the best.

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A year from now, we might well be saying, “You know, they should’ve just kept the closer they had.”

Except there was no way we could retain either Soriano or Gonzo. Both were asking for a long-term, high-dollar contract. The only reason Soriano accepted arbitration was that we already had Wagner and therefore weren’t going to negotiate with him. When we offered arbitration, we gave him a guaranteed year and he is free now to seek an extension with Tampa Bay or get free agency again next year.

There was no way he was going to close for us this year. If we hadn’t signed Wagner, we would have been left with nothing. I don’t know about you, but the idea of a Medlen/Moylan combo as closer gave me the cold sweats.

Wagner may not have had saves last year, primarily because he was pitching the 8th in Boston, but he looked as good as ever. He might have even picked up a couple of MPH.

As for Lowe, I don’t know what to do with him. It’s not that I want him traded, but there’s simply one too many starters lurking around. We will probably have to accept a mediocre prospect or two and eat some of his salary. But consider that last year, we were looking at a rotation of JJ and nothing else. There was no guarantee that Hanson was going to pan out (although without the signings, he would have started the season in Atlanta), Hudson was out for most of the year, Smoltz was injured and as it turned out, barely adequate as a starter, etc.

Wren was brilliant in picking up Javy, KK, and Lowe. The only problem was that our offense was horrid during the first half. Once we subtracted Frenchy and got playing time for Prado, and swapped out Kotchman for LaRoche, everything improved dramatically.

As for LaRoche, he wants several years and a lot of money. And probably a no-trade clause. Obviously, we have Freeman coming along, and we can find a decent bat to stick at 1B for a year. We’ll lose defense, but I don’t think we want to invest $25 million or more for Adam’s defense and second half. If we could get him for a year, I’d love to see him back, but I don’t think that’s possible.

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I fail to understand what is being accomplished by signing Billy Wagner and Takashi Saito to replace Rafael Soriano and Mike Gonzalez – unless it’s strictly a money situation.

I am not convinced that these two new additions are an improvement over the individuals they are replacing.

Then again, this is Frank Wren that we are talking about.

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I guess if we had kept Soriano and not signed Wagner we would be be two draft picks ahead of where we are now. Both will perform well at the start – it will be all about the injuries and how the Pirates/Rays reliever does I guess.

I wonder if Furcal would have done a lot better if he had played in Atlanta vs. LA. That might have been part of Wren’s thinking. I can’t explain going after Griffey – he would have been subpar anywhere. I’m pretty sure we’d all like to have Peavy on the 2010 roster.

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Reid Adair its simple: Mike Gonzalez is going to get a 3-4 year deal on the open market for much more than the 2.5-3 million he made last year and oh yeah his agent is Boras so he could possibly net more. Rafael Soriano in his three seasons in Atlanta had one good year. The rest of the time he was ineffective or injured. Billy Wagner is one of the greatest closers of the last 12-15 years. He had a surgery that is now considered routine and returned back from that procedure with stuff that looks better than before he left. Saito is a very good setup man who did wonders when he was with the Dodgers. In Boston he either didn’t fit in with the team or not a fan of the AL, but his numbers were still solid. The Braves gave Wagner and Saito $10 million compared to the nearly (if not more) $20 million that Gonzalez and Soriano would have fetched this season. They are basically keeping the back end of the bullpen production at or slightly above last season’s duo.

For all the talk about Gonzo and Soriano, many forget that both were inconsistent throughout the year. Gonzo was either lights out or making the game a little interesting towards the end. Soriano was very good in the beginning, but got badly streaky come August. I don’t think the Braves are going to regret these moves one bit.

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Mark: 1. I am glad we have Wagner; I think he’ll be fine.
2. I wish we had traded Lowe and kept Soriano. A key question for Wren is- why was he surprised when Soriano accepted arbitration? …and what with that 4.5+ ERA reliever he got back in the trade?
3. As I’ve said before, Wren is over his head, has been from the beginning, and should be demoted to equipment manager.

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((((( 30-24 )))))

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My lord, this is the most hateful article i have read in a long time! You are becoming a bitter man, MB. Can we not look at how the Braves did in the second half last season and try to see the glass half full? Wren had alot of critics this time last year and shut them all up by the end of the year, lets give him some slack here.

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There really is not a power hitter available that fits the Braves needs, I like the Orlando Hudson idea. You have Orlando Hudson, Nate McClouth for speed and steals. Hudson, Escobar, Prado, Diaz can all deliver the timely hits for RBIs and Chipper and McCann and possibly Heyward while not 40 HR guys can provide the pop when needed.

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If you can trade a $15 salary like Lowe’s (maybe the Braves wil have to chip in $2-3mil) for an emerging star like second baseman Jose Lopez with the Mariners or a player in his prime like LF Juan Rivera, then you make that move. Then fill in the pieces with short term free agents or a two year offer to LaRoche or N. Johnson, If you acquire Lopez, move Prado to first, sign a FA left fielder, and platoon Heyward/Diaz in RF. If you acquire Rivera, add LaRoche for a heavy 2 year deal and stay with same platoon.

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Bring back LaRoche!

This is a no brainer, we need a bat, we need a first basemen. I hope Freddie Freemen is a great player, but lets not count on that too much. LaRoche could start for 3 years and Freemen would still only be 22 (maybe 23, im not sure).

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Are Don and Robert twins? Gets kinda tiring to read their rants about how bad Bobby Cox is. Without him, the Braves STILL would not be worth talking about – like they were before 1991!

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The best move he has made is not resigning Norton. That’s a 2-3 game upgrade right there.

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Some of you Cox lovers on here remind me of Dawg fans. Your quick to quote history to strengthen your point of view. But not taking into account the historian is running out of gas. Cox has, over the past couple of years, been responsible for (directly or indirectly) blowing huge leads in games that the Braves should have won easily. That figure comes to roughly 10 games per season. Losing games in such a fashion is demoralizing to the team effort and should be kept to a bare minimum. Had the Braves won the majority of those “blown games”, they would have made the post season.

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Wren made the decision to cut bait with Smoltz and Glavine — two of the best moves that allowed the Braves to compete in 2009. I don’t think that Scherholtz could have made the same decision

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This is the lack of genius of Frank Wren. I just don’t understand his reasoning at all!!

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Wren going public with the, “no problem we will trade him within 24 hours” response to Soriano’s acceptance of arbitration seemed slightly bizzare. Why go public that you are desperate to trade anyone with value? Didn’t they get rid of Church to clear roster space for RS? Was his entire $7MM coming due last week?

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Herschel, all we have to work with on Wagner after the surgery is what he did with Boston. It’s a small sample size, but he was extremely good. 14.9 K’s per 9 innings and a 1.72 ERA…the numbers pop out. There is a level of uncertainty due to the surgery, but I’d rather have a guy like Wagner who was consistent and great until one major injury than a guy like Soriano who does three trips onto the DL a year.

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The criticism of Frank Wren is a little over the top. Given what Tampa Bay signed Soriano for, yes, I’d rather have him. But I assume he thought the market for Soriano would be better. And now you’re criticizing him for going after Jake Peavy? Come on. Peavy got hurt, but you have the benefit of hindsight here. Everyone would have been psyched to have Peavy at the time. As for Garret Anderson being better than Ken Griffey, I just beg to differ. Griffey only hit .214, but he had an OBP of .324 and a slugging percentage of .411 (superior to Garret’s .303 (ouch) and .401) with 19 HR to Garret’s 13. As old as Griffey is, I have a hard time believing he could have been much worse defensively, either. Neither were great shakes, but Garret Anderson was hardly a big benefit this year.

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I really have to believe you know the answers to those questions and understand baseball a little bit more than you just let on. If not, wow, it’s a shame. I really hope this is just you looking for readers and trying to fuel the fires of the part of the fan base than is less than totally knowledgeable. I sincerely hope you’re not actually among that group, because this article makes it seem like you are.

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Justin, my opinion is that since Juan Rivera is a productive player and doesn’t have a huge contract, the Angels aren’t going to be desperate to trade him, despite their outfield depth. But if the Braves eat some of Lowe’s contract and/or throw in a prospect, it could possibly get done. If Lackey goes to Boston, Wren will give the Angels a call, for sure.

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Agree completely with the Soriano/Wagner question and statements. Soriano may not have been perfect, but I’ll take someone like him, who delivers 90% of the time in the closer role, than spending the same amount of money on the big question mark that is Wagner. Wagner has a lot more downside, with not much upside over Soriano.

Disagree with the idea that Lowe is not the starter the Braves should be trying to trade. Sure, he may have won 15 games last year, but do you think he’ll win as many in 2010. I sure don’t. His ERA is a full run higher than our next worst starter (Kawakami – who pitched well in some big matchups last season). Bradley should have restated his question here as “why re-sign Tim Hudson when there are already 3 solid + 2 serviceable pitchers in the rotation?” This is the bigger question mark, which is now necessitating Lowe (or someone else) be moved.

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do the braves have an opening for defensive coordinator?

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Fire DOB!

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Welcome back Mark. You answered your own questions. Frenchy was addition by subtraction. But what if they had just released him? At least he might not now be in NY or our division.

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I have only one question:

Why does the AJC let Bradley write about baseball?

Answers?

Soriano gets hurt a lot, Lowe frees up salary space, Church is another guy who’s always hurt, but not having Frenchy is addition by subtraction.

If Bradley were a music critic, he’d wonder why the music was so quiet before the concert started.

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Jordan Schaffer is going to be a great hitter and baseball player 2011. I hope he is still w/the Brave.

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Bradley you have no idea what you are talking about. Your first point is a valid one but you missed the BIGGEST drawback of signing Wagner over Soriano…. The Braves have lost the 17th overall pick in next years draft. I think Wagner will pitch well this season and be a great closer but I think Soriano would be on a similar level and we would still have our 1st round pick. As for the Age comparison it really bears little point in the discussion. We are talking about 1 yr guaranteed deal which lessens the risk. BUT BOTH PLAYERS ARE HUGE INJURY RISKS!!!!
Soriano has a long history of major injuries which makes him as much of a risk as Wagner. As you imply Wagner could get hurt while Soriano stays healthy but there is no way to know which one will get hurt. Hell they could both get hurt. Its a coin toss.

As for your second point…. I actually like everything you have to say here.

What really makes me mad are your 3rd, 4th, and 5th points.

First Lowe as you said had an off year last year and that does not mean he will repeat but we do owe him 45M over the next 3 seasons. There is no doubt the Braves needed him last year and in order to obtain him we had to be willing to offer 4/60M, so we did. Now we are fortunate enough to have had several things go our way and no longer wish to be teathered to a 36 yr old(turns 37 June 1) pitcher taking up roughly 15-20% of our budget for the next 3 years. You should know as O’Brien and every other Baseball beat writer that the Braves don’t expect to get a return of significance. This is a SALARY DUMP. In Fact I dont believe Wren or any other official has said on the record that they want to deal Lowe. They have said they want to deal a SP and speculation, rumors, and off the record conversations have led writers to believe that they are shopping Lowe and Lowe alone.

Your 4th point… The Francouer Trade was never about getting a great player back. It was a PR and Finacially motivated decision. The braves needed to get rid of Frenchy while they could get something back. He was struggling and not responding to help from within the organization. The Braves needed to have something to show the fans that they got for Frenchy. Because if they hadnt traded him then they very well could have non tendered him yesterday and faced the full wrath and fury of Braves Nation. Now they are 3-5M lighter than they would have been and are free to give Heyward a shot and spend that money on a hitter that fits in our lineup rather than Frnchy who was a offensive liability at times.

Finally you can talk about Wren’s “instincts” all you want but at the end of the day he put a team out there that competed until the end and exceeded expectations.

This article is not well thought through and what makes it worse is that since you, a man of credibility has written it, people who are not as familiar with the Braves as others will cite it as fact.

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Two questions ?
MB is anybody paying you to play General Manager ?
Are you a crotchety old man?

We nearly got to postseason with Wrens moves fool.

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Well, Lackey and the BoSox have a deal. 5 years $85mil. Time to get on the horn with the Yankees, Angels and Mariners about Lowe!

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who in the hell are the braves lookin at for offence anyone know of any rumors

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excellent points

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In my lifetime I discovered one constant…people who know nothing try to speak the most & fastest so no one will notice.
I have never seen as many bloggers that give the impression that they know more than GM’s and professional coaches. Most can’t even spell.
The major reason the Braves suck is they’re stuck with the name ATLANTA. (just like the Falcons). When they become a GEORGIA TEAM then good things might happen.

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If they trade Lowe the Braves will pony up a portion of the 45 mil to get it done. This season is done let’s get behind what ever decisions are made and be True Braves Fans. Be positive not so Negative.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All

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Losing DLowe will be a huge mistake – he is adamant about making 2010 a comeback year. He’s the first to say he let Atlanta down and wants to make up for it. Whomever gets him will have quite the ACE…

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The way Booby wears out the bullpen they are going to need all the relief pitchers they can get. He don’t know what it is like to let a pitcher pitch past the 6-7th inning or 100 pitches whichever comes first. I personally feel that Soriano faked being injured after he signed the 2 year contract but even with that I don’t think they have given him away for nothing. I don’t think they should have given away Frency for nothing either but at least they didn’t trade the farm like they did for Tex. I was a braves fan until that trade and now I don’t care to watch them. I haven’t been to a game since that trade and don’t plan to go to any either. That was indeed one of the most lopsided trades they ever pulled. They knew all along that they couldn’t keep him with the Yankees bottomless checkbook lurking in the background. They should try to sign LaRoche for one year and hopefully Freeman is ready by then. I am rooting for Heyward in 2010 to be the star outfielder he is projected to be and if he is they had better lock him up for a long time. You know the yankees already know about him and his potential.

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MB would it be so bad to have dye at 1st and cameron in the of hell even sign derosa to be a utility player

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This guy seems to lock into one player and become totally fix on acquiring “his” guy. I don’t know, but some of his acquisitions were never made (thank goodness).

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I think you’re wrong about Soriano. Sure he’s younger, but the decision made sense because we thought he’d get a long-term deal at money we did not want to pay. Additionally, he was less than stellar the last two months of the season. He lost four games in the last two months of the season which would have put us much closer in the wild card race (only 2 out at season’s end) and might have put much more pressure on the Rockies. Wagner, while 38 and coming off of Tommy John, still threw mid-90s and is a hall of famer. You can’t go back on the decision you made to make Wagner the closer and add Soriano back in the mix, the trade was the only move to make.
2. The problem with offering arbitration to LaRoche is that he would accept it and possibly stop any moves that we might make at first. If we’re not looking to deal for a first baseman, it might be a money move, or maybe you’re right, it just doesn’t make sense.
3. Derek Lowe was a terrible signing to begin with, and those 15 wins are about luck much more than anything. His numbers were so good in LA because they play in the grand canyon there and if you look at his three-year splits in LA you’ll know I’m right. If we can get his $15 million off the books for Damon Berryhill, you do it.
4. The Church for Frenchy deal was about dumping Jeff, plain and simple. He’s a crybaby, as shown by his AAA demotion the year before. If he sat on the pine, he’d be unhappy and possibly hurt the locker room. It was a good decision then and is still good now because we’d have to offer him arbitration and keep him another year.
5. I agree with Griffey and Furcal, but I think you’re wrong with Peavy. You can’t say he would have injured himself in ATL. Injuries, and performance for that matter, are not necessarily translated through teams. If you can get a true number one starter like Peavy, you get him. Just a reminder, the reason we did not make the deal was we did not want to trade Locke, whom is now a Pirate for the .250 leadoff hitter.

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Hey…bring me back! I’m a real innings eater and I am not 40 yet.

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Yeah, I just saw the news on Halladay to the Phillies. Damn!

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Frank Wren is what he is and 99 percent of the fans have yet to figure it out.

What is he? WAY IN OVER HIS HEAD.

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The only way the move for Wagner makes sense to me is if there is some stud in the minor system who just needs another year or 2 at most to develop into a MLB ready closer. Otherwise the move seems stupid in every way. Second, i think re-signing Laroche would be a good idea, unless Chipper feels its time to make a move to 1st himself. The bullpen and rotation is stout, seems that there really is only a need for a boost of power in the lineup and that means ATL would have to drop the big bucks out and get Bay or Holliday or just be content re-signing Laroche and another 20-25 HR threat. But who knows what will happen, the Braves have been so unpredictable since they started this Championship slump.

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Kyle, read some on the Braves prospects – we have an outstanding closer in the making – I believe he’ll be in AA this year, maybe AAA. Pitched in AFL.

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Don’t forget about Brooks Conrad….

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some get over it we arent going to have bay or holliday to much money we will have 2 of the 4 nady, dye, laroche, cameron and hopefully add derosa to for a hometown discount cuss me out but this will happen so be happy

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With the Phillies and Mets restocking, everything appears to be geared towards contending in 2011 – by then, Freeman, Hanson et al will be ready to play and perhaps Chipper will either retire or relegate himself (voluntarily?) to coach/player. And most importantly, the relic will be gone from the dugout and hopefully the chop and memories of all those lost championships with him. It really will be a great opportunity for this team to start fresh and build a new identity – the one going on now is really getting old.

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Bad instincts? Let’s just think about some things Wren has done. He had the guts to stare every Braves fan in the face and take the heat for cutting ties with 2 HOF pitchers, and that paid off ok. He turned a girlish 1B in Kotchman into Laroche who had a strong 2nd half. Kawakami has been a good value at less than $8M a year, not a huge salary for a sub-4 ERA. Have you forgotten about a trade involving an aging/declining Edgar Renteria that brought us JJ and Gorkys Hernandez (who later helped land Nate)? That was an unbelievable trade Wren made. Garret had good value at $2.5M, Soriano gets in funks where he gives up too many HRs, so i like Wagner with the lefty power hitters in the division. I also like the Chavez kid, he has good potential with that power arm. Oh and Wren got Vasquez for 4 avg prospects. So, I’m more than pleased with Wren. He has been put in some tough spots on a budget that doesn’t compare to the people we have to beat! So, get a clue before you question him like he is terrible!

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While the Phillies trade their best pitcher (Cliff Lee) for an obvious upgrade in Roy Halliday, look at their core hitters: Utley, Rollins & Howard. The Braves have NOBODY like those three in their lineup. Assuming the starting pitching holds up and the ancient bullpen isn’t torched by July, the Braves will finish in second place at best, all assuming they can still find a firstbaseman and outfielder that can hit above .250.

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LaRoche is gone, with seattle getting a very good hitting first baseman.
so much for chipper begging the braves to sign him, oh well what does chipper know, as wren ask another stupid question.

the braves will once again finish behind the phillies and mets!

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Now that Lowe has been shipped to the Angels, can we please extend Javy so that we have a rotation of Javy/JJ/Tommy/Huddy for the next four years and go to work on the offense? Promote Jason and Freddie and get El Caballo and we be set.

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They should forget about paying through the nose for a hitter, and just get a good hitting coach! Oh, wait…

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I like the Vazquez deal it sets our pitching up nicely for 2012 or 2013. With the addition of Arodys Vizcaino. But I hope that there are still big plans to add a bat like say Dan Uggla and trade Cabrera for him.That way the Vazquez deal is more like 15 wins for 30 hr and then platoon Diaz and Heyward in right. I dont think that Diaz has the pop that the Braves need for an every day left fielder. I think that I would probably play Uggla in the outfield cause Prado did so well last year at 2nd. I think that if Gluas can find some way to stay healthy then that was a good move. That adds hopefully 20+ hr and i like the way that the bullpen is shaping up

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