After 26 NFL starts, how does Ryan compare to Vick?
Matt Ryan hasn’t had the sunniest of sophomore seasons. His team is 5-5. He threw 10 interceptions in a five-game span. His team has lost four of its past five. But with all the dissection we’ve done, here’s one thing we haven’t tried: We haven’t yet compared/contrasted the Falcons’ newest franchise quarterback with their previous franchise quarterback. Here goes:
• After 26 regular-season starts, Ryan is 16-10. After 26 regular-season starts, Michael Vick was 16-9-1. (Note: Owing to his apprenticeship behind Chris Chandler in 2001 and his broken leg in 2003, Vick needed four seasons to make 26 starts.)
• Ryan’s passer rating in his second season as a pro is 80.0. Vick’s passer rating in his second season as a pro was 81.6. Ryan’s career passer rating is 84.3. Vick’s career passer rating is 75.6.
• Ryan’s completion percentage in his second NFL season is 59.3. Vick’s completion percentage in his second NFL season was 54.9. Ryan’s career completion percentage is 60.3. Vick’s career completion percentage is 53.7.
• Ryan has thrown 12 interceptions through 10 games of his second NFL season. Vick threw eight in his second NFL season. Ryan has thrown 16 touchdown passes in those same 10 games. Vick threw 16 touchdown passes in 15 games in his second NFL season.
• Ryan has fumbled three times in his second NFL season, his team losing two. Vick fumbled nine times in his second NFL season, his team losing six.
• Ryan has accounted for 2,324 yards (passing and rushing) through 10 games of his second NFL season — an average of 232.4 yards per game. Vick accounted for 3,713 yards in his second NFL season — an average of 247.5 per game.
• Ryan’s team lost his first playoff start, which came in Phoenix in his first NFL season. Vick’s team won his first playoff start, which came in Green Bay in his second NFL season.
Loading ...Even though the styles were dissimilar, there’s not a lot of difference between the raw numbers at this point in the two careers. But it’s worth noting that we’re rating Ryan at a personal low — though he did have a big second half in Giants Stadium on Sunday — and Vick after 26 NFL starts was among the most feared players in the league.
That 26th start came in Week 5 of the 2004 regular season. The Falcons would finish 11-5 and beat the Rams in a playoff game and reach the NFC title game. But that was the end of Vick as a winning quarterback. He was 15-15 over his final 30 games as a Falcon, and his last NFL start came Dec. 31, 2006. This year he has accounted for 67 yards, more than half of them coming on one run against the Bears on Sunday night.
We can compare/contrast Ryan to Vick as young players, and you can make the case that Vick was slightly better. (Though not as a rookie; he started only two games in 2001.) But we cannot compare the Ryan of 2009 to the Vick of 2009 because there’s no comparison. One is the starting quarterback. The other is a backup.
Note: I’m posting this now, but I’m not opening it for comments just yet. I’m flying back from Newark, and I know from the hour I spent over dinner with D. Orlando Ledbetter last night how quickly matters can deteriorate on here. So I want to be able to monitor the comments. If you’d like to leave one, check back early in the afternoon. In the interim, feel free to vote in our poll.
In-flight update: Delta flight 2011 has wireless available — a free trial! — and I will open this for commenting. Since I’m at 30,000 feet, I’ve got nowhere to go. But let’s keep it clean, shall we?
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706 comments Add your comment
Dump The Chump
November 23rd, 2009
12:37 pm
Mark all this cricism is getting out of hand an uncalled for. This my second year and I am still learning folks. Give me a break I just adjusted to the adjustment made by the d coordinators.
If I had my way we would have been running no huddle since the frisco game. The coaches don’t listen to me. My game management skils in the no huddle is second to none.
Ice ice baby.
. Bring on the bucs.
ILOVEFOOTBALL
November 23rd, 2009
12:38 pm
MV7 would have been a much better player under Coach Dan Reeves. I can remember Mike completing 3rd and long plays and long passes effortlessly. Then we go hire a assistant head coach at best in Mora the Moron and change the scheme up. “If its not broke then don’t break it” And as far as it goes for Matt I think he will be just fine as our QB. No matter who is under center in a Falcons jersey I will be screaming for the win every Sunday.
me
November 23rd, 2009
12:39 pm
I’m a falcon fan first; I cheered for Vick when he was a falcon and I now I cheer for Ryan. As much as Ryan is scaring me with his inconsistent play, i agree he is young but he does put in the time and effort needed to get correct the issues. So I agree, I don’t see Ryan having a worse year, I only see him getting better.
MR
November 23rd, 2009
12:40 pm
Bernie Matt, that is a tough question. Terrence or Bradley, let me think. The problem I am having is the fact you ask who is the better sport writer and I would not classify either as a sports writer. So I guess it would have to be……a frickin tie…kiss your sister deal.
MR
November 23rd, 2009
12:42 pm
ILOVEFOOTBALL, he was fighting dogs while Reeves was his coach. How would he have been better. Hell, he was into dog fighting while he was at VT.
MR
November 23rd, 2009
12:45 pm
No matter who was his coach MV would still have been convicted of dog fighting. He was a liar and felon. He sat infront of the comissioner and stated he was not involved and any illegal activity. Come on people, character is first and football is second. My kids will never look up to MV as a sport model.
Hamad Meander
November 23rd, 2009
12:46 pm
So it’s finally obvious! MV7 was and still is 10X better than Matt Ryan. Folks, this is a team with momentum heading toward being a Superbowl team. The one factor that kills good teams is injury, and we’ve had more than our share. The Falcons with Harry Douglas, Peria Jerry, Brian Williams, Jerious Norwood, Michael Turner, William Moore, and Sam Baker would not be 5-5, they would be at least 7-3.
May I ask please? Let this be the last blog on Michael Vick!
Atl Resident
November 23rd, 2009
12:46 pm
Ryan might not end up in jail, but he definitely not a franchise QB that’s for sure or least not this far in the post Vick era. Vick could win the big games, Ryan has yet to do that and that’s what fans miss the most. Ryan is too easy to defend against, but that’s nothing new in the post Vick era. Hell, I would rather we have Favre than Ryan, somehow Favre finds a way to win, makes plays, something this team needs.
Marc
November 23rd, 2009
12:47 pm
Happy to have had both associated with the Falcons. As of right now, I’d say Vick was better throughout 26 games. The stats and stuff are nice, but what sets Vick apart from Ryan is that I’d feel more comfortable if Vick had to carry the team on his back rather than Ryan.
Heath
November 23rd, 2009
12:48 pm
Mark, regardless of the idiotic race baiting going on in these comments, just remember: if we had someone who could kick a 40 yard field goal we’d be 7-3 right now and your record for Ryan would be 18-8 as a starter.
Bears Fan
November 23rd, 2009
12:49 pm
Mark Bradley leaves and all the kids come out to play. Once again, let me reiterate, the Falcons had two quarterbacks in the last ten year that were better than most teams quaterbacks in the last 20. By the numbers, as Mark pointed out, these quarterbacks at the same stage in their career are evenly matched. Everything else ( the choke, fair and balanced, herpes..etc) is a reflection of each poster’s own biases.
Here’s the nitty gritty. Ever since I have been in Atlanta, there’s been a struggle within the region regarding the city’s image. There are some that want to portray Atlanta a typical Southern Town, and there are some that want to portray as an Urban and Hip City. There lies the problem.
Atlanta is a combination of both. In 2001 when Vick was drafted, who knew he was into dogfighting?
No one. Yet, there was nothing there to suggest that he was either. Matt Ryan, he is the real deal. He is going through a slump but he will bounce back.
By the way, Chicago is cold, I like the weather down here.
nononsense
November 23rd, 2009
12:49 pm
V7 did not take to a Super Bowl Win; so far 2R has not taken us to a Super Bowl Win.
My point is: Nothing else matters
nns
nononsense
November 23rd, 2009
12:52 pm
WE DID HAVE FAVRE!!!!!!!!!!!
MV7 - a tribute
November 23rd, 2009
12:53 pm
Never underestimate Michael Vick.
He is bigger than the QB position – whenever he touched the ball, anything could happen.
He is bigger than the Falcons – the whole world took notice of the Falcons only because of him.
He is bigger than morality – when he got in trouble, new excuses were created just for him.
He is bigger than the NFL – he could lie whenever and to whomever he pleased.
He is bigger than life and death – killing animals for entertainment.
He is bigger than space/time – people still cheer for him as if he should still be playing for the Falcons.
Never underestimate Michael Vick.
AndyC
November 23rd, 2009
12:55 pm
Before people start to crush Ryan for his play this season, let’s remember that the Falcons have a horrible defense and a terrible kicker. Those are the main two reasons that this team is underachieving this season. Ryan has made his share of mistakes and has not played as well as last season but there are other factors.
itpdude
November 23rd, 2009
12:58 pm
Getting rid of Coach Reeves was the worst thing to happen to Vick. Vick’s best year came under Reeves and that was a decidedly Reeves team.
DanNotDan
November 23rd, 2009
12:58 pm
Ryan is an adult; Vick will always be a petulant child.
A better comparison would be to Manning, Brady, McNabb or other quality quarterbacks not a QB bust like Vick.
Atl Resident
November 23rd, 2009
12:58 pm
Umm, when Vick was here defense was still horrible (Ray Buchanan) and no kicker (Feeley).
blazerdawg
November 23rd, 2009
12:59 pm
I hope Vick does well with Philly (or Chicago next year), loved watching him in ATL and wish his decisions had been better. Ryan is a very capable QB, our best leader in a while, and still very young. In my mind, Vick is like C. Miller and J. George; talented QBs that could not lead.
If all stats are nearly equal, then you have to take Ryan on the intangibles.
Tyougg44
November 23rd, 2009
1:00 pm
Get off M.R. whats wrong with you all….when our team scores 31 points in a game…dang….you team should win the game….the biggest prob is DEFENSE! AWFUL, DISGUSTING PASS RUSH, DBACKS, HOUSTON, NOT SURE IF HE WILL EVER COME AROUND, AS FOR THE OTHER DBACKS….NOT! J. ANDERSON AND #55 WHAT A POOR EXCUSE FOR A PASS RUSH…MY GOODNESS.YA, MAYBE ITS TIME FOR THEM TO RETIRE…OLE 55, AINT GETTING IT DONE. AND NO ONE ELSE EITHER ON THE PASS RUSH…SAW ONE OF THE DBACKS RUSH UP TO THE LINE TO BLITZ YESTERDAY, AND MANNING, DIDNT SNAP THE BALL, OUR GUY DROPPED BACK 10 YARDS AS IF TO SAY, JUST FAKING THE BLITZ,,,THEN I BE DANGED IF HE DIDNT BLITZ ANYWAY A DAY LATE AND DOLLAR SHORT..AND OF COURSE MANNING THREW FOR 10 OR 12 YRD COMPLETION WHERE HE WAS….DBACKS ARE PATHETIC…ONE MORE THING…HOW IN THE WORLD DOES THE OTHER TEAMS RECEVERS GET SOOOOOOOOO WIDE OPEN? CAN YA HELP ME OUT HERE? AND WE ARE OBVIOUSLY GIVING OFF SOME SIGNALS BECAUSE THE OTHER TEAMS SEEM TO KNOW EVERY THING WE ARE ABOUT TO DO……OFF AND DEF…..FRUSTRATED!!!!!!!!!
BB
November 23rd, 2009
1:01 pm
Matt Ryan is this decade’s Chris Miller. Matt Ryan will tease fans with his arm, but just like Chris Miller, he turns the ball over too much (via the INT or fumble or both) and can’t handle defensive pressure on a week to week basis.
For Ryan to succeed in Atlanta, Michael Turner has to perform EVERY YEAR at NFL MVP level like last year when he received some votes and had 1700 yards.
…and if Michael Turner (rather than the overrated Warrick Dunn) was paired with Vick, the Falcons would have gone further in the playoffs than beating Green Bay in 2002 and St. Louis in 2004..
I question whether Matt Ryan will even win a playoff game in Atlanta, before Vick does with his new team..
Tyougg44
November 23rd, 2009
1:02 pm
AND OH MY GOSH……ELAM….NEED I SAY MORE…..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anthony G
November 23rd, 2009
1:02 pm
I believe if Vick had the recievers that Ryan has now, his number would be better. I mean come on, Roddy and Michael were dropping passes left and right, running sorry routes, and not fighting for the ball. And don’t give that mess about him scrambling all the time because if you check the game tapes, blocking was a major issue when he was on the field, I mean they barely block most of the time why do you think ran so much. Dan Reeves should have stayed he was developing Vick into what he should be today and he would have keep Vick in check behavior-wise. As far as the dogs, he served his time leave him alone, I rather be worried about the crooks in politics passing out money to all these corporation and leaving us bankrupt. I love dogs in all but it people who do far worst and recieve less punish and backlash.
Vick all day baby!!!
Tyougg44
November 23rd, 2009
1:02 pm
Enter your comments here
Najeh Davenpoop
November 23rd, 2009
1:02 pm
It is meaningless to judge Vick solely on his passing stats, when he contributed more to his team’s running game than any other quarterback in NFL history. It’s no different than judging Marshall Faulk without taking into account his receiving stats, or Brian Mitchell without considering return yardage. Completion percentage and quarterback rating may somewhat begin to show what he did as a passer, but you get the same amount of credit for a rushing yard as a passing yard, which essentially means every 8-yard Vick run is no different from an 8-yard Ryan completion. Traditional passing numbers don’t even begin to describe Vick’s entire impact on an offense, including how his bootleg action opened up running lanes for Warrick Dunn and allowed him to have some of the best seasons of his career while playing with Vick.
There are also two key differences between Ryan and Vick at the same stage in their careers. First of all, the Falcons’ offense was completely reliant on Vick’s ability the entire time he was here, and you could tell by the fact that the Falcons won 60% of their games with him starting and under 20% of their games with him injured or suspended from 2002-2007. On the other hand, the Falcons’ current offense is designed around Michael Turner, not Ryan. Everything the rest of the offense does is currently based off of the running game. Matt Ryan has still not shouldered anywhere near the amount of offensive responsibility that Vick did, and this explaind why Vick had more total yards per game as well as more turnovers per game. Ryan has been allowed the opportunity to learn from his mistakes in an offense where he is not the centerpiece. Vick, like many other young quarterbacks on previously bad teams, never had that luxury.
The second key difference is that the Falcons have invested in a solid support system for Ryan from day one, including a GM with a proven track record of player evaluation on an elite team, a coach who has been successful at every place he has been a coordinator and who is able and willing to
make adjustments as a game and season go along, an offensive coordinator who has developed another young QB into a Super Bowl champion and who believes in a system that works in the NFL, a first-round pick blindside tackle, a running back who excels in short yardage and on the goal line, and a Hall-of-Fame caliber target in the passing game. Basically, this version of the Falcons has done everything right from the top down as far as assembling a winning TEAM. Vick had none of these things, and the fact that he had to make do without them explains why the Falcons started fast and faded down the stretch in his last two seasons here — the undersized lines wore down, teams started figuring out how to defend the Falcons’ college-style offensive scheme and the coaching staff refused to adjust.
When you take into account the situation each player was in, the support they had around them, and what they were able to accomplish given the situation, Vick was the better player through 26 starts, no question. That said, considering what a great situation Ryan is in for a young quarterback, my guess would be that he turns around his current slump and continues to improve. I think when all is said and done Ryan will be a good player. But for a guy who draws Peyton Manning comparisons, I have a hard time seeing him have the singlehanded positive impact on a team that Vick or Manning do.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
November 23rd, 2009
1:03 pm
Atl Res, Feeley not a kicker. Your kidding.
Jon Megrue
November 23rd, 2009
1:03 pm
Common Falcons fans, Ryan is still the guy for the job. Hes still learning usually the percentage would say 75% Ryan….25 Vick. I can tell the Atlanta faithful are losing hope. The current offensive line in the past few games looks like the offensive lines from the Vick era. Vick could scramble. Ryan has to think fast and throw. Give Matt Ryan the protection that Peyton and Brady have, and its a done deal. Ryans a little off in the pocket right now because hes a rookie. Hes still learning. Go Falcons…wildcard here we come.
Anthony G
November 23rd, 2009
1:03 pm
Yeah Elam sucks too
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
November 23rd, 2009
1:04 pm
Athony, one of them is still dropping passes.
Tyougg44
November 23rd, 2009
1:04 pm
VICK OLD NEWS GET OUT OF THE PAST ….HELL., WE SHOULDVE HAD FARVE BACK THEN GET OVER VICK WISH HIM WELL….TURNED OUT TO A DISSAPOINTMETN, HAD THE WORLD IN HIS HANDS……(AT ONE TIME…)MOVE ON……..
Tell it like it is
November 23rd, 2009
1:05 pm
Chump the Dump.
Dr. R
November 23rd, 2009
1:07 pm
They are different players with different teams and systems so it’s hard to compare. I would offer that both made their teams better but those teams came up short for different reasons than the QB. There is way too much emphasis put on one position in the NFL. The Falcons’ recent struggles are more because of the defense unable to make a stop than the offense failing. Yes, Ryan has thrown INTs, but some of those come because the offense is trying to force things based on the defensive failures. Against the Saints, Panthers and Giants, they were constantly playing from behind because the defense gave up too many early points. You tighten that D up and I think we’d find that Ryan and the offense can win a lot of games.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
November 23rd, 2009
1:08 pm
Anthony hit one thing on the head, Reeves leaving was the worst thing for Vick. Reeve’s game of play action and bombs was best suited for MV. Greg Knapp killed him.
SirReal
November 23rd, 2009
1:08 pm
This is a tale of two totally different QBs. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Both were/are undisciplined at times. Both had a good RB and TE to throw to. Both had decent coaching at this point in their careers. Ryan may benefit from more consistency in the coaching dept. Vick had to deal with the Mora debacle. I think Knapp’s offense destroyed any prospect of Vick ever being as solid as he could have. The “Sick Vick” offense was just not that great. Ryan has a better coordinator in Mularkey. (though he’s been ?able lately too. Like Mark said, the numbers dont lie and at the end of the day that’s what you have to look at.
Najeh Davenpoop
November 23rd, 2009
1:09 pm
“if we had someone who could kick a 40 yard field goal we’d be 7-3 right now and your record for Ryan would be 18-8 as a starter.”
If Todd Peterson could kick a 40-yard field goal, the Falcons would have made the playoffs in 2006. If Jim Mora didn’t have to call someone on a cell phone to figure out the tiebreakers, the Falcons would have made the playoffs in 2006. If Michael Jenkins catches a perfectly thrown 60 yard TD pass against the Browns in 2006, the Falcons win that game and probably make the playoffs. I could literally write a book with every single screw-up Vick’s inferior coaches and teammates made that cost Vick on his record or his passing stats.
NCBravesFan
November 23rd, 2009
1:11 pm
Mark: I love your blog dearly, but I couldn’t care less about the comparison. The Vick era is over and it’s all his fault. He made choices that lead to his downfall.
He’s paid the price for those choices and perhaps he’ll do good work for someone else. I wish him well. But he doesn’t belong here any more. Too much water under the bridge, as the saying goes.
Matt Ryan is the QB now and I wish him and the Falcons all the best. I think this comparison is unfortunate in that it leads to trolls and “TUS” perpetuating their nonsense about the team and Matt Ryan vs. Vick.
Which I find really, really dumb.
Dump The Chump
November 23rd, 2009
1:11 pm
Before people start to crush Ryan for his play this season, let’s remember that the Falcons have a horrible defense and a terrible kicker. Those are the main two reasons that this team is underachieving this season. Ryan has made his share of mistakes and has not played as well as last season but there are other factors.
—–
It’s not my fault folks. Remember I am young and still learning my craft. If effing Michael jenkins would cath the friggin ball we would have a better record.
Why am I even wasting my time explaining football to clueless fans?
Her are a few smiley faces to entertain you.
kj
November 23rd, 2009
1:11 pm
I have to say I am proud of the way you guys are blogging today. 180+ posts and only a handful were racially provocative. Good job you guys. Now, as for the vick experience compared to matty ice I would have to believe that had mv7 had a more disciplined structure leading him he would have been the qb we all hoped for when we traded SD for that number 1 pick. I also believe that matt although very decent at qb will have to learn to calm down when getting pressured. It could go either way with ice at this point. he could be a payton manning in the making or he could just as well be a david carr. Putting pressure on a young qb sometimes destroys their confidence. anyway my double penny comments for the day.
Ricky B
November 23rd, 2009
1:12 pm
Matt Ryan is still a better Quarterback than Vick will ever be. This is his second season, Eli Manning had difficulties in his first couple of years and now look at him. Everyone wants to jump on the band wagon when everything is going well, but lets blame it all on one player, you need to look at the whole team. The defense is giving up too many big passing plays. Lets point fingers at more than the one guy that works hard at being a good quarterback.
Heath
November 23rd, 2009
1:13 pm
If their stats are pretty close, how does that make one the best QB in the hisory of the NFL and the other the biggest bust draft pick ever? Regardless of who you are backing? If one is good and the stats are almost even, doesn’t that make the other one good too? Even if the skin color isn’t what you’d prefer?
SirReal
November 23rd, 2009
1:14 pm
BREAKING NEWS: FALCONS RELEASE JASON ELAM!!! Yeah right.lol Why we keep such a detriment to the team is beyond me.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
November 23rd, 2009
1:15 pm
Dekalb Fan, answer is two (Reeves & Knapp). So whats the point
Super Paul Bonebreaker Barlow
November 23rd, 2009
1:16 pm
Matt Ryan after 16 games = 0 dogs injured
Mike Vick + 17 hurt, 5 killed
Mike
November 23rd, 2009
1:17 pm
I do know this … take it for what it’s worth … Vick had a young Roddy White and a young clueless Mike Jenkins. People want to say that they miraculously got better because of a change in QB. I’m leaning more to Joe Horn and a real wide receivers coach .. not an offensive lineman.
We all see now that our complaints about Jenkins were valid. Dude nuts up in too many crucial situations. It doesn’t matter how hard or soft you throw a ball. If you can’t catch, you can’t catch.
Vick would have never been a 60% passer. But a 58% passer (which vick would have been with Roddy white today) along with the sheer threat of running would have been great to see …
All in all, I like where we are headed with Ryan … but Vick was the bigger threat and with the coaching and offense we have today, I’d argue he would present a bigger threat today.
Atl Resident
November 23rd, 2009
1:18 pm
DanNotDan
November 23rd, 2009
12:58 pm
Ryan is an adult; Vick will always be a petulant child.
A better comparison would be to Manning, Brady, McNabb or other quality quarterbacks not a QB bust like Vick.
The Hell, this is the stupidest comment on here about Ryan and he’s not no more mature than Vick. Thats the problem with people saying comments making it sound all good when its not. And then to mention these other QB’s, Ryan doesn’t even come close to them.
Dr. R
November 23rd, 2009
1:18 pm
Good points on the kicker debacle. NFL games are won and lost by little things and you have to convert when you’re in range. Missed kicks have been costly the past two weeks and might have been the diff in both games. You can’t drive downfield and come up empty and expect to beat good teams. Ryan is getting his team into the red zone and making plays more often than not. The picks hurt but that’s indicative of the trust the coaching staff has put in him to get the ball downfield. Remember how everyone was whining about Knapp’s dink and dunk West Coast passing game? You don’t get INTs with that, but you also don’t get big plays. The Falcons have a more vertical attack, but there is risk involved in that as well. You have to take the bad with the good. Bottom line is that winning in the NFL is dang tough, the Falcons are still in the mix, the schedule is easing up from here and they’re still a more competitive, entertaining team than the ugly bunch that Petrino abandoned two years ago. Better to have a struggling young QB with a bright future than Byron Leftwich. So let’s count our blessings.
kj
November 23rd, 2009
1:19 pm
for those of you who don’t think vick was much of an accurate passer i would reference you to check out the pro bowl game where he and a young larry fitzgerald were hooking up with relative ease the entire time he was in the game. I believe if vick’s caliber of recievers were better then he too would have been better. we didn’t get roddy until when 2005ish and we all know roddy was horrible his first year. let’s be honest on both sides of the coin people.
Kathy in ellijay
November 23rd, 2009
1:23 pm
Enter your comments here
Kathy in ellijay
November 23rd, 2009
1:25 pm
Instead of talking about who is a better QB, why isn’t anybody talking
about getting a kicker that could actually kick a field goal.
Dr. R
November 23rd, 2009
1:26 pm
Finding it odd, too, that we’re comparing a starting QB to a backup who doesn’t play much. Why not compare Ryan to Schaub, who actually has been winning with Houston? Somehow Vick has managed to serve as a lightning rod even two years after he’s gone. Some folks will still defend him and everything he has done, and others will never give him credit for the success he had here. It’d be nice if we could move on and quit worrying about guys who are no longer in town, whoever they are.