Bobby Cox a bad tactician? Because of Puckett? Come on
So he hit a home run. He hit a lot of home runs.
It’s unfortunate the long and meritorious career of a Hall of Fame manager can, at least in the minds of many locals, be boiled down to one at-bat on Oct. 26, 1991. It’s unfortunate because the move that has come to be seen as wrong-headed was made for sound reasons.
Bobby Cox brought Charlie Leibrandt, a left-handed pitcher who’d been a starter all his career, in to face the righthander Kirby Puckett with the Braves and Twins tied in the bottom of the 11th inning of Game 6 of the World Series. Puckett hit a home run. The Braves would lose the Series the next night, also in extra innings. Those looking to justify the oft-voiced claim — “Cox has always been a bad tactician” — start there.
But look close: Leibrandt had faced Puckett twice in that World Series, striking him out both times. In 1991, Leibrandt had retired righthanders at a higher rate than lefties. (Righties hit .237 off Leibrandt in 1991; lefties hit .274.) And when you’re tied as a visitor in extra innings, you know you have to get six outs to win, not just three. Why not summon a starting pitcher, a veteran of postseasons past who’d won 15 games that season, as opposed to a 21-year-old Mark Wohlers?
Because, you’re saying, it didn’t work. But wouldn’t that, on one side at least, invalidate every move made in every baseball game ever played? Was Tony La Russa wrong for letting Dennis Eckersley pitch to Kirk Gibson in 1988? Was Sparky Anderson wrong for having Pat Darcy work to Carlton Fisk in 1975?
The inconvenient truth is that most managers, given the same personnel, would make the same moves most of the time. As Greg Maddux would say, it then comes down to a pitcher making pitches and the hitter trying to trump him.
Can Cox be maddening in his seeming overuse of the bullpen (to say nothing of Greg Norton)? Sure. But even in a season that hasn’t seemed the esteemed manager’s finest, his team entered the final 10 days with a realistic chance to make the playoffs. And that body of work is a better measure of Cox than one swing by the Hall of Famer Puckett.
The hallmark of Cox’s teams is that they keep playing. They don’t implode from internal strife. That’s why his teams have finished first more times than any other manager’s in the history of the sport. (Cox has 15 first-place finishes; Joe Torre has 12; Casey Stengel had 10.) Cox’s men keep playing because they like playing for him. If they thought their manager was an in-game dunce, we’d have known it by now. We’d have known because they’d have quit on him.
It’s intriguing that Cox’s critics focus on the post season, which owing to the addition of the Division Series has been rendered almost a coin flip, and not the six-month regular season, which is the truer test of a manager and his team. It’s also fascinating that Cox is never given credit for any October move that worked. He began to use John Smoltz as a closer in the 1999 postseason, and he even used Maddux to finish Game 5 of the 1998 NLCS in San Diego. And the one Series his teams won turned on, of all things, a Cox choice.
Oct. 25, 1995: Wohlers had been touched for a home run and a double to begin the ninth. Cox summoned the lefthander Pedro Borbon Jr., who hadn’t pitched in nearly three weeks, to face Jim Thome, Sandy Alomar and Kenny Lofton. Borbon retired all three. The Braves took a 3-1 Series lead and would win the title three nights later. Should fairness not dictate that we hear as much about Borbon as Leibrandt?
Here’s hoping that, as Bobby Cox’s valedictory tour begins, we see him for what he truly has been. (And having Cox work one final more is Solomonic: It affords him a final go-around without leaving matters open-ended.) Even above John Schuerholz and Tom Glavine and Terry Pendleton and Smoltz and Chipper Jones, this manager is the reason the Braves became and remained the Braves.
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173 comments Add your comment
One Cool Guy
September 25th, 2009
10:03 am
Thanks for the corrective!
JB Wright
September 25th, 2009
10:12 am
Enter your comments here
Cox is awful. But he can pick a nose like nobody’s business.
mike28212
September 25th, 2009
10:15 am
Great column Mark. Every manager, coach, player etc makes moves that leaves fans scratching their heads in disbelief. In Bobby’s case those are far outweighed by the success this team has had for the majority of his tenure.
Brian
September 25th, 2009
10:20 am
Nonsense, Jeff. I played RBI Baseball on Nintendo the very next day, put Jim Clancy in, and won the game. I defy you to say we wouldn’t have won at least three World Series if I was the manager.
jarvis
September 25th, 2009
10:21 am
He started Keith Lockhart in an elimiation game in the NLCS for the righty-lefty match up. He’s a joke.
Brian
September 25th, 2009
10:21 am
And I defy you to tell me I can’t call you Jeff!
TomB
September 25th, 2009
10:21 am
Nice try Mark, but I believe you are outnumbered here. Why do so many people disagree here? Are we all boneheads. This imo, was a bad example to try and defend BC. BC is a great manager and the evidence to back that up is ample, but not this one. I disagree. Cox blew this one.
BravesFan79
September 25th, 2009
10:21 am
With the Rockies loosing twice to the Pads… i think we have a real shot at making the playoffs! Man it feels good to say that! We MUST sweep Washington tho. I think St Louis takes 2 of 3 and that would put us 1.5 games behind.
Brian
September 25th, 2009
10:24 am
TomB, do you care to provide any evidence, besides hindsight, that it was a bad move? If not, then you can’t knock Mark. He backed his stance up.
midnite
September 25th, 2009
10:24 am
What not playing to the extremist bloggers anymore? That blew up in your face(hurt your credibility)didn’t it Bradley? You probably can’t get near Turner Field anymore. I bet Cox and Wren really have the love for you now. Thank goodness for DOB and Schultz. If 40 is the new 20 then Bradley is the new Terrence Moore. LMAO!
Brian
September 25th, 2009
10:27 am
Hmmm…Keith Lockhart started two elimination NLCS games: Game 6 of the 1997 NLCS, when went 4 for 5, and Game 5 of the 1998 NLCS, which the Braves won. Oh yeah, what a moron!!!
DCbravosfan
September 25th, 2009
10:29 am
Bobby is the best. 15 first place finishes speaks for itself. I am a Bravos fan in DC and I am off to cheer on Bobby and hope the Braves can pull out one tonight against the Nats. Go Braves!!!
Really
September 25th, 2009
10:30 am
I understand where everyone is coming from here, but anyone who thinks Cox has EVER taken from this team is both short sighted and ignorant when it comes to the very soul of baseball.
Don
September 25th, 2009
10:31 am
The name of the game is PITCHING. If your Pitching is great enough, is far far superior to the other teams, it will forgive all kinds of weakness/failure of positive actions/negative actions in the manager, and you will still win over the long 162 game regular season especially if the manage keeps his team in on an even keel. Thus, 14 straight Division Championships for Bobby Cox. Bobby Cox has never taught/emphasized/demanded the most essential thing in run production and having a consistant offense — working the count/ being slective/ making the opposing pitcher throw a lot of pitches. This has cost the Braves countless, countless games every year. This is to say nothing of his slowness to react in obvious decisions in getting productive players into the lineup and non productive players out of the lineup, or his failure to move hot and cold hitters up and down in the bating order, or his terrible failures in opportunites to put pressure on the opposing pitcher in key situations, or his continuous actions of doing exactly what the opposing manager would like for him to do in key strategy situations, or his continued terrible use of the bullpen every year, or his failure to emphazie making solid contact instead of overswinging, – and on and on.
Space Monkey
September 25th, 2009
10:32 am
I think Cox is a great manager. But I also believe that he is a slave to lefty-righty matchups, regardless of the quality of the player. With bases loaded and two out, he would bat Greg Norton over Brian McCann if a scrub lefty reliever was on the mound. Every other manager knows this, and they can use it to destroy him in a five or seven game series. Also, I guarantee you that if we make it to the playoffs, Derek Lowe will start the first game instead of Javy. Count on it. Lowe will get drubbed and then we’ll be playing catch-up the rest of the series. I like Cox, but I wish he would go with the hot hand rather than the lefty-righty thing and his standard rotation.
Brian
September 25th, 2009
10:32 am
Don, I’m sure you were sad to hear the news of Cox retiring. What are you going to do with your life now that you can’t write anti-Cox essays on people’s blogs?
MVick
September 25th, 2009
10:33 am
Good column, Mark, but if the Braves were interested in winning right now, in the present, next year, he’d be gone at the end of this year. But I guess 2010 will satisfy Atlanta appetites of mediocrity.
Bob Horner had a sweet compact swing
September 25th, 2009
10:35 am
BravesFan79 you are correct…it’s a tall order but stranger things have happened….hopefully St. Louis will play inspired baseball…they are 0-4 against the Rockies this year…
Brian
September 25th, 2009
10:35 am
Space Monkey, the way it’s set up right now, the rotation (if somehow we make the playoffs) would have Vazquez starting Game 1. Hanson theoretically would start Game 2, but I have my doubts that he would pitch in the playoffs if we made it.
jarvis
September 25th, 2009
10:39 am
Brian…sorry about that. I meant to say that Lockhart didn’t play for the lefty-right matchup. It was instead T. Graffanino.
You strengthened my point.
Brian
September 25th, 2009
10:39 am
The Cardinals have Carpenter and Wainwright going tonight and tomorrow. They’ll be playing to clinch the NL Central tonight.
F-105 Thunderchief
September 25th, 2009
10:41 am
Unfortunately, it’s human nature to focus on the negative and gripe, as anyone who has ever held a job, with a boss has noticed. The negative nearly always outweighs the positive. That tendency is only magnified on an anonymous blog. Not to be negative or anything, but we are a sad, fickle, ruined species (tee hee).
DawginLex
September 25th, 2009
10:41 am
If Wohlers throws Leyritz a 102 MPH heater and strikes him out in the 96 Series, do we remember Bobby differently?
THAT was the best baseball team ever assembled in Atlanta. It is a shame that one pitch destroyed it.
Don
September 25th, 2009
10:41 am
Brian, actually Cox has made so many blunders that a person could continue to write about them for years – and thats just relating to his blunders for this season. I will give you this – he is the best as far as making players like him – which is understandable if you let them do what they want to do without direction (as long as they keep their nose clean).
F-105 Thunderchief
September 25th, 2009
10:43 am
Jair Jurrjens is the Braves best starter. Followed by Vazquez, Hanson, Lowe and Hudson.
jarvis
September 25th, 2009
10:43 am
He also started Danny Bautista over Micheal Tucker who had single-handedly won the game the night before.
The entire lineup was a joke. The Braves had battled back from 3-0 in the series to 3-2 only to have Cox send out a joke of a lineup in game 6. Braves lost 5-0.
Brian
September 25th, 2009
10:46 am
Well jarvis, I can tell you that Graffanino was 2-3 with a home run against Sterling Hitchcock in his career going into that game. In addition to that, he walked in both PAs against Hitchcock in Game 2 of that NLCS. Lockhart never faced him, regular season or postseason.
Mac
September 25th, 2009
10:48 am
Some bonehead wrote: “Nice try Mark, but I believe you are outnumbered here. Why do so many people disagree here? Are we all boneheads.”
Yes.
Herschel Talker
September 25th, 2009
10:56 am
Mark – if you really think that you have to go all the way back to Puckett to come up with examples of why Cox is a terrible tactician, then you are being ridiculous. I can come up with far more examples. For starters, how about all the lefty-righty BS that led to a lineup in the 1998 NLCS with Danny Bautista? Would you like more? This blog entry is ridiculous.
Herschel Talker
September 25th, 2009
10:57 am
JARVIS at 10:21:
That was exactly my point with my last post. I said Danny Bautista. But exact same idea. Completely absurd by Booby.
Herschel Talker
September 25th, 2009
10:59 am
DawginLex at 10:41:
Yes we do remember him differently if that pitch isn’t thrown. However, as much as I think Cox is a complete clown, I don’t pin that pitch or that game on him. There are far better examples where he was responsible, and not poor execution by a player. That one was poor execution by the catcher in the pitch call and the pitcher in leaving it hanging.
PMC
September 25th, 2009
11:09 am
The disapointing thing is not 1991. Yes it ruined the worst to first finish. Then they lost to the Blue Jays the next year. You could argue Cox helped get them there both times. 1995 they win. Then they completely and totally blow it in 1996 and 1997 they don’t get there in 98 and by 1999 when they maybe had their best offensive team…they get dominated by a much better Yankees Team.
Bobby is Bobby. What he tries to do is put his guys in the best position to win and win for the long haul. That’s why he saves his starters for this time of the year. The Bullpens we’ve had aren’t really special but they can’t hit like they did in the 90’s either. They haven’t had a really good team since 1999. Maybe 2001.
Bobby understands always that it’s a marathon and not a sprint. He doesn’t get too up or too down over anything and that’s his brilliance. That’s why he’s a good manager. It’s just disapointing they had the talent to win 4 WS and they only got one. 1991 was one of the best WS ever the final game was just in the wrong venue.
PMC
September 25th, 2009
11:11 am
101 wins in 97 only to come up short to the best Marlins team money could buy. I still hate the Dave Justice and Grissom trade for Lofton.
BugKiller
September 25th, 2009
11:13 am
Mark,
You can’t use “coin flip” and “crapshoot” to keep on excusing Bobby Cox’s horrible performances in all of these Octobers.
1 out of 15 (once with the Jays included) is statistically impossible when it comes to coin flips and crap shoots.
You know what’s closer to a “coin flip” or a “crapshoot”?
4 out 13.
That’s how many World Series Torre won.
You also leave out Cox’s ridiculous platoons. The fact that he ruined Ryan Klesko’s career by refusing to make him an every day player, something he more than proved he was while he was in San Diego.
Don’t forget his refusal to put the best players on the field or at the plate when games where on the line. I guess you’ve forgotten how many playoff series ended with Andruw Jones striking out with men on the bases in the bottom of the ninth.
What about losing to teams far less talented that your team?
Here’s the thing, a baseball manager’s job is to put his team into the best position to win. Do you really think Cox was doing that when he sat Klesko on the bench? When he let proven rally-killer Andruw Jones take the last at bat of a series?
Why did Bobby cox refuse to start John Smoltz first, EVERY year? He’s the second-best, or best depending on your bias, postseason pitcher in baseball’s history. Why did Maddux and Glavine, two mediocre corner-nibblers come October, start in front of him?
Was Bobby Cox putting his team in the best position to win by not having Smoltz pitch until the third game, based upon his regular season performance instead of his October history???
THIS is what people mean, Mark.
Bobby Cox put FAR too much faith into regular season performance instead of October history.
Bobby Cox REFUSED to manage October as the do-or-die prospect the postseason is. He managed the post season as if it were another early season series in April.
No sense of urgency. No do-or-die, win or go home attitude.
Because of this, he’s overrated. He never treated the postseason with the proper attitude.
JEZ
September 25th, 2009
11:18 am
I’m not arguing it’s difficult to win 14 division titles in a row. That’s incredible. But you also have to think about what our division has been the last 15 years. The only threats we had were usually the Phils, but that was in the mid 90’s when they had Kruk and Dysktra and Dalton. The mets had that subway series in 99 was it? Who cares…my point is, the braves did not have much competition within their division, and that was obvious when we played in the division games and would continue to get spanked. That is obvious proof of Cox’s flaws.
Mark Bradley
September 25th, 2009
11:23 am
The 1993 San Francisco Giants won 103 games. The Braves were in the West then, if you recall.
The Lemmer
September 25th, 2009
11:23 am
“…Cox has made so many blunders that a person could continue to write about them for years….Cox is a complete clown…”
Geez, come on folks….
Don
September 25th, 2009
11:25 am
With Bobby coming back and with Pendleton coming back, we absolutely must have Norton to complete the set.
TomB
September 25th, 2009
11:26 am
OK Brian, I’ll give it a try. Liebrant had already pitched game one with miserable results. Pena was pitching great with Mercker, Wohlers and Clancy available. In game three that went into extra innings, the Braves used Pena,Stanton,Wholers, Mercker and Clancy to win the game. Relievers spend the entire year pitching many times with the game on the line. You can make the agrument that they were in a better position to pitch the 11th than Liebrant who hadn’t pitched since game one.
Just listen to what some of the Twins had to say: Puckett’s teamate Terry Crowley said Puckett told him that if they leave Liebrant in the game than this one is over. Crowley swears to this day that Puckett called the home run against Liebrant.Puckett’s teammate Kent Hrbek said he couldn’t recall Puckett specifically forecasting the homer. But he also said it wouldn’t surprise him. You know Puck, how he liked to talk,” Hrbek said.”I do remember they put Leibrandt in to pitch to him, and I don’t know why.”
bb
September 25th, 2009
11:28 am
Anybody who thinks that Bobby Cox is not a great manager has no clue. For someone who has been a Braves fan for 40 years, I would much rather lose in the post season (which has gone from a coin flip 40 years ago to three coin flips, and if you lose once you’re out) than what happened in Atlanta more often than not the first 25 years the Braves were here. Finishing anywhere other than last in the division was something to celebrate.
I remember being excited in July of 1991 that the Braves had a chance to finish above .500 and would have been happy with that; little did I know what was coming. Losing in game 7 of the World Series did little to dampen the excitement and pride in Atlanta that fall. Go back and look at reports of the parade that Atlanta put on for the Braves after that series loss.
jeff p
September 25th, 2009
11:29 am
If we had a Mariano Rivera, we have at least 3 maybe 4 titles. If Reardon doesn’t implode in Game 2 of the 92 series, it changes the face of that series. If Wohlers doesn’t implode in the 96 series, same thing. 91 was a Metrodome ceiling thing away from yet another title or Hrbeck pushing us off the bases.
Yes, we get spoiled assuming it is a God given right to make the post season but think about the run this team had over the course of 15 yrs – never see it again in our lifetime.
Yes, Cox can frustrate you at times, but overall the true test of the success is how the players and peers view you and you can say that probably most view Cox as one of the best.
I really like this team in 2010 if we can just find that one power hitter and a true leadoff hitter and a bit more bullpen depth.
The Lemmer
September 25th, 2009
11:33 am
Thank you bb and jeff p…
NCBravesFAN
September 25th, 2009
11:50 am
Hey Bugkiller…did you ever stop to think about the match-ups?? With Greg Maddox going against the other teams ace, TommyG going against the 2nd best SP…that leaves Smoltz quite often going against the opposing teams #3 starter!! Yes Smoltz was a postseason hero, but speaking of 91, didnt Smoltz get out pitched by a Ace in game 7? Its not as easy as you make it out to be, so quit trying to bash Cox and go rant on another UGA blog!
NCBravesFAN
September 25th, 2009
11:55 am
Where is the respect for Bobby leading the Braves into the playoffs in 2004-2005?? Yes we lost in the Div. series but those teams had no business even being in October. Do the names Dewayne Wise and Charles Thomas ring a bell? How about Chris Reitsma or Dan Kolb…those teams would have barely been .500 without Bobby Cox’s great managing and winning attitude. Give the man some respect!
Keeper
September 25th, 2009
11:56 am
And remember how close that game came to never reaching Leibrandt – I distinctly recall Justice crushing what would’ve been a game-deciding HR into the face of second deck, but it went foul by what, a foot or two? (I also remember having the brief consoling thought that the series was too good to end in six anyway, that it deserved a compelling game seven – and we sure got one, though not with the proper outcome.)
The clowns who rip Cox don’t have a clue. They’re also irrelevant – Bobby couldn’t be bothered to spit a sunflower seed in their direction. Of course, Cox is such a class act that if these detractors had the b*lls to talk strategy to his face, he’d shake their hand, hear them out, and likely refrain from pointing out exactly why they’re so clueless. (Unlike most here, I’ve actually met Cox and spoken with him, so I’m not just basing my comments on biased perceptions from afar.)
I love the fact that he’s coming back for a victory tour – mostly because it will be a perfect way for the vast majority to remember and honor him, but also because enduring him for another year will be such a painful thorn in the side of the blathering minority. When he guides the Braves to an unprecedented 15th division title – and if the playoff coin-toss goes our way, perhaps even more – he’ll go off grinning into the sunset, still joyfully oblivious to the bloggers shouting into the hurricane, hoping someone notices them and makes them feel relevant.
It’ll be our loss, but his retirement will be wonderful for Cox and his family. And as with Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz, we’ll only truly appreciate his genius when those who follow fail to live up to a standard that will never, ever be touched.
NCBravesFAN
September 25th, 2009
12:14 pm
“Its Bobbys fault the Lonnie Smith stopped rounding 2nd base!!” “Its Bobbys fault that Ron Gant got yanked off 1st base by Hrbeck” “Its Bobbys fault that Livan Hernandez got every pitch he threw called a strike in 97″ “Its Bobby fault that Ryan Klesko dropped an infield fly letting 2 runs score in the top of the 10th inning Game 4 of the 96 World Series”
Coach (2010- Mr. overrated retires)
September 25th, 2009
12:15 pm
Winning one WS in fifteen trips to the playoffs is dumb luck. Coming up short in fourteen trips to the playoffs is a trend.
Get the picture. 1996 WS the Braves are up 2-1 in the first three games , then they are winning game four 6-0 when Neagle and Wade cough up three runs in the sixth inning. The bases are loaded full of Yankees with nobody out. Then Mike Bielecki comes in and strikes out the side to preserve the lead, then nails down the seventh inning. Score: 6-3 Braves.
What does Cox do? Something he hadn’t done all season long. Bobby brought Wohlers in for a two inning save and the rest is history as our closer melted down in the eighth inning, and the Yankees went on to take the series 4 games to 2.
Never mind these two facts. Bielecki had an ERA of 2.63 during the 1996 season and never did give up a run in 6.2 innings of work in the 1996 playoffs.
My point is: If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it. Wohlers was always a one inning closer. Cox screwed up strategically and there is your proof.
In other words, the correct course of action was to leave Bielecki in for one more inning, bring Wohlers in for the ninth and more than likely we would have been up 3-1 in the series, which probably would have led to a repeat WS Championship.
Gary
September 25th, 2009
12:22 pm
I have an easy prediction to make, less than five years after Bobby Cox retires, everyone on this blog will be whining about the “good ol days” when Cox lead the team to the playoffs 15 straight years. Bring Bobby Back! will be the cry. I hope he tells all of you where to go. In the meantime, I’ll still be pulling for the Bravos and Bobby Cox.
Mark Bradley
September 25th, 2009
12:35 pm
Klesko’s drop cost one run. Steve Avery walked Wade Boggs withthe bases loaded to give the Yanks the lead.
tmac
September 25th, 2009
12:36 pm
Sorry MB it’s not one move that make BC a good or bad tactition…
It is a collection of moves in the post season and through out the regular season that earns him the title.
When you win 14 divisions and only have 1 world series to show for it (especially with that pitching…), than BC has earned that title. *Well deserved*
I can’t tell you how many times I have seen Bobby burn players two players in what should be a single player move…that deplete’s his bench… it’s rediculous!
Mark Bradley
September 25th, 2009
12:38 pm
And Gary will almost certainly be proved right. Look at the folks who insist the greatest mistake the Falcons made was in firing Dan Reeves.
The Grinch
September 25th, 2009
12:41 pm
Spot on, Bugkiller.
AndyC
September 25th, 2009
12:43 pm
Mark
You and Jeff need to huddle up. He thinks that the Braves are done this year and you think they have a realistic shot at making the playoffs. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. My prediction is that the Braves will lose the wildcard by 2 games, possibly 1.
Mark
September 25th, 2009
12:46 pm
Mark Bradley, the “BOBBY COX APOLOGIST” You are down right stupid for thinking that you could put Cox over Scheurholtz when it comes to the success of the Braves. That is just IDIOTIC. Mark Bradley get some BALLS about yourself and stop defending losers like Cox, because right you seem to have nothing but OVARIES. I don’t know what the heck has happened to you Mark. You didn’t use to right dumb articles like this. When you have a town that has a media that defend guys that win in the regular, but choke in the playoffs. Joe Torre can win 4 WS and lose his job, but not here because there are many people like Mark Bradley who love DIVISION TITLES and NL pennants. Atlanta “LOSERVILLE AGAIN”, but hey maybe all of our pro teams will make the playoffs. That seems to be the standard around here. Honestly, the Braves weren’t the team of the 90s. It doesn’t matter if it were the early part of the 90s when the Blue Jays won 2 WS or the later part when theYankees won 3. The fact of the matter is, THE MARLINS have accomplished more than the Braves.
Ted
September 25th, 2009
12:56 pm
BugKiller nailed this 100%.
Bobby may be one of, if not the best full-season managers in major league history. His ability to keep a team performing well for 6 months and keep the team going through rough stretches is why he deserves the HOF – and why the Braves made the playoffs so many seasons. For that he deserves to be lauded.
However, Bobby has never realized and never adapted to the fact that the strategies for getting through a season are NOT the strategies for playoff success – and this is where he has failed. “Seasons” are 3 to 7 games – not 162 games. Every game is a must win. You can’t stick with slumping players to get them through the slump – your season will be over before that happens. You have to go with the hot hand. You have to manage your bullpen differently. You have to play match-ups. And so on. Bringing in Liebrandt was just the 1st of many such decisions that are a major reason why he only has 1 WS ring.
All that said, I will add that IF (major if) the team squeaks into the playoffs this year, things might be different. Because, in effect, Bobby has had to manage (and has managed) the last few weeks in playoff mode. If he can keep that style of management through the end of the season and the Braves somehow make it in, hopefully he sticks with it and lets the chips fall where they may.
BugKiller
September 25th, 2009
12:58 pm
Hey, the only people who deserve to be called names are the Vick Fans and the people who continue to defend Willie Martinez, who is entirely indefensible.
As much as many of us disagree about Bobby Cox, the man has accomplished SOMETHING, unlike Vick or Martinez.
We just disagree about how much credit and blame he deserves for the various successes and failures.
No name calling here, okay?
NRBQ
September 25th, 2009
1:04 pm
And oh, by the way. Puckett led the American League that year in hitting against lefties.
For this Braves fan, that was the most disappointing night in their Atlanta history. At least the shock and anger following that game 6 (& 7) made the following 13 years of failure easier to take.
Thanks to Sonny Clusters, I can’t look at Bobby’s photo anymore without thinking of a bugger-covered iPhone.
Great Article!!
September 25th, 2009
1:07 pm
Nice Mark, Cox has done TONS with the Braves and NOBODY will ever forget the legendary name that is BOBBY COX!
Reid Adair
September 25th, 2009
1:08 pm
You make a very good point, Mark. Many time, those who have no experience whatsoever as a manager want to take a decision that ended in a poor result and use that to determine that the manager is in capable of doing his job.
UGA ALL THE WAY
September 25th, 2009
1:09 pm
I actually agree with you BUGKILLER
Mark
September 25th, 2009
1:16 pm
Gary you are crazy if you think people around here will want Bobby back in 5 years. This manager has done nothing, but win 1 WS in a strike shortened year. Luckily for him, Mike Hargrove was just a little bit dumber. Any manager that sits around a waits in homeruns, never playing small ball, and hopes his pitchers hold a lead is SORRY. What we have seen this season is what we always saw in the playoffs. Mark, why don’t you talk about 1993 when he kept allowing Ron Gant to bat 3rd in the lineup even though he was slumping. Great Managers are defined by championships not division titles. Phil Jackson, Joe Torre, etc won championships not Division titles. Not one championship, but several.
Herschel Talker
September 25th, 2009
1:18 pm
Gary most certainly will NOT be proved right. Unless you’re implicating Frank Wren in not getting the correct hire. Assuming he does, no one will be pining for Booby. They said the same thing about Joe Torre in NY. Looks like Joe Girardi is doing just a fine job.
Pi$$onaDawg
September 25th, 2009
1:24 pm
The #’s were in COX favor with Charlie against Kirby, but “EVERY DOG HAS HIS DAY”, and Bobby played that Ace high hand 1 too many times. He was not wrong for it. Bobby just played that hand 1 time too many. The Herbect tossing Gant(?) off 1st base for an out was HUGE too, but Bobby had nothing to do with that play.
cvbraves
September 25th, 2009
1:27 pm
Said it once, say it again. Wouldn’t it be great if the Braves catch the Rockies and win the wild card? Surely, Bobby Cox would be voted Manager of the Year over Tracy….love the thought. Bobby haters would go nuts.
Mark
September 25th, 2009
1:32 pm
cvbraves, don’t worry about winning the wildcard because even if we were to get close enough Bobby would do something stupid like start Kelly Johnson or Ryan Church because a lefties on the mound. Or he might pinch hit GREG NORTON in the ninth with the bases loaded nobody out. All bobby does is pick his nose, get thrown out of games, and says thing like “COME ON CHIP!’ during the game. Unfortunately we have to deal with this one more year.
Mark
September 25th, 2009
1:33 pm
correcton: righty instead lefty
TomB
September 25th, 2009
1:37 pm
First, BC is a giant. He is a future Hall of Famer and a great manager. I just disagree with the premise of the article, that Puckett’s performance disputes the argument that Cox, though a great strategical manager, was not a great tactical one. Mark makes his argument for Liebrant pitching that inning. I just don’t agree. I think their was a collective “what are you doing” from the majority of Braves fans when they brought him in to pitch to Puckett. Mercker, yet to pitch two future no-hitters, was available along with flame thrower Wohlers. They had been in these situations before. Liebrant hadn’t pitched since game one(not a great performance). I quess we will have to just agree to disagree here. But, there is no disputing that BC will go down in history as one of the best managers in baseball. The one World Series win doesn’t matter. Weaver and Durocher won only one World Series and they are seen as great managers and so will BC. The Wasington Nationals would love to have one.
channel 17
September 25th, 2009
1:41 pm
Wow! Someone’s debating Bobby playing Bautisa over Tucker. We’ve got some geniuses on here.
BugKiller
September 25th, 2009
1:44 pm
TomB… you argument that Durocher and Weaver only won one World Series is not a good one.
First, Durocher had to face the Yankees. All the time in the WS. The YANKEES, of DiMaggio. Of Gehrig. Of Berra. A FAR better team than his Bums. Literally Jack vs. The Giant.
In fact, the one World Series Durocher was able to win is a testament to how good he was as a manager, because the Yankees were again so much better than his team.
Bobby Cox has continually lost in the playoffs to WORSE teams.
1993 Phillies. 1996 Yankees. 1997 Marlins. 1998 Padres. 2000 Cardinals. 2002 Giants. 2003 Astros. 2004 Astros.
Nine times Cox has had the better team and lost.
THAT IS UNFORGIVABLE.
This is also were Earl Weaver was ALSO overrated as a manager. Those Oriole teams only won ONE World Series??? With THAT pitching staff???
Sorry, but Weaver and Cox are two in the same. Supremely overrated.
TomB
September 25th, 2009
1:49 pm
Bugkiller: If you haven’t noticed the best teams do not always win in this game, and it is unbelievable to me that the reason for this is always the manager. Give me a break. The pitchers have to pitch and the hitters have to hit. To blame Weaver for his pitching staff not doing the job?
wawel78
September 25th, 2009
1:52 pm
Wait just a second Mark. You know better than that. I know by the stats you selected you know this already but care to post Kirby’s career numbers against Leibrandt? The move doesn’t determine Bobby’s reputation but defending that move is inexcusable as is the Lockhardt move in 98 as is the handling of Franceour, LaRoche and Diaz in the lineup this year.
Again, that doesn’t ruin his reputation but the good should go with the bad.
wawel78
September 25th, 2009
1:56 pm
Wait just a second Mark. I know you have the stat available because you are picking and choosing. Care to post Puckett’s career numbers against Leibrandt. That move is inexcusable as was Lockhardt in 98, and the handling this year of Franceour, LaRoche, Diaz and Norton.
It doesn’t define his legacy but the good should go with the bad.
GreggJ
September 25th, 2009
1:57 pm
Cox needs to go -he is awful all these years one championship?? Come on!
DROCK
September 25th, 2009
1:58 pm
If Bobby coached in any other city and was this successful he would be treated as a GOD. His only fault is that he coached in a city that has a lack of TRUE Baseball and Brave fans. Outside of Atlanta, Bobby Cox is a first ballot Hall Of Fame coach……
BugKiller
September 25th, 2009
2:03 pm
TomB… you’re right, the best teams don’t always win.
I would take 1/3 of the time. Kind of like Joe Torre. 4/12.
But Bobby Cox’s teams losing to WORSE teams 9 out 14 times?
That’s called a TREND, TomB. Don’t let your blind loyalty and appreciation of Cox turn you off to the actual facts that surround his overrated career.
Hitters hit, pitchers pitch. But who fills out the lineup? Who continuously left the hot bats on the bench for his favored light-hitting veterans, or his ridiculous platoons? Who mismanaged the heck out of his pitching staff, time, and time, and time again?
The one thing I don’t get about you Bobby Cox supporters and you Willie Martinez defenders is how quickly you want to blame the players for everything without understanding that the buck must stop with the manager and the coach.
Who manages or coaches the players? Who refuses to make the necessary adjustments to ensure the success of their defense or their team? Who is the one coaching fundamentals? Who is the one who stubbornly refuses to drop a struggling, rally-killing hitter from the clean-up spot? Who takes out Mike Bielecki and inserts Mark Wohlers an inning early, which if that never happens, then Wohlers never hangs a slider? Who is in charge?
It’s no surprise that the Martinez defenders and Cox supporters are most always the same people.
And that they are WRONG on both accounts.
Hoosier Aaron
September 25th, 2009
2:08 pm
BugKiller – Bobby Cox REFUSED to manage October as the do-or-die prospect the postseason is. He managed the post season as if it were another early season series in April.
I have to agree totally with that statement.
Bobby’s philosophy during the regular season is “Win the series and you win the division”. Which is exactly why I’d never drive seven hours to watch the Braves play a Sunday game if they won on Friday & Saturday. We’ve won the series…it’s a day of rest for the regulars. A win on Sunday for the sweep is just gravy.
You cannot argue with that philosophy during the regular season….it obviously works.
However, we’ve been beaten in postseason numerous times by the Joe Torre postseason philosophy “Do what you can to win today – I’ll worry about tomorrow…tomorrow”.
I applaude Bobby Cox for “protecting the health of his players especially pitchers”..and I know the players respect him for that. However, it obviously doesn’t work very well if your goal is to win the World Series.
Hillbilly Deluxe
September 25th, 2009
2:10 pm
I believe Bobby is a bad tactician but due to the body of his work not just the Leibrandt-Puckett episode. Since you brought it up though, I believe it’s always a crapshoot to bring in a starting pitcher in a game on the line situation as a reliever. He’s used to warming up and preparing to start and has to alter that in the relief situation. It’s asking him to do something he isn’t really prepared for. He had gotten Puckett out twice before but in a starter’s role. Of course that’s why you never want to get to a game 7 or even worse extra innings of a game seven, because one mistake, bad hop, or other bad break and you’re done.
I’ve always felt like the reason never had more post-season success is because all Bobby’s teams, including his Toronto teams have always been weak on the fundamentals. Failure to bunt, hit to the right side, move runners along, hit and run, poor baserunning and other failures to execute are always magnified in the post season. Every time you get a scoring opportunity, you have to cash it in cause the majority of the time you are going to be facing quality pitchers. Good pitching with negate good hitting nearly every time.
BugKiller
September 25th, 2009
2:11 pm
TomB… you’re right, the best teams don’t always win.
I would take 1/3 of the time. Kind of like Joe Torre. 4 out 12.
But Bobby Cox’s teams losing to WORSE teams 9 out 14 times?
That’s called a TREND, TomB. Don’t let your blind loyalty and appreciation of Cox turn you off to the actual facts that surround his overrated career.
Hitters hit, pitchers pitch. But who fills out the lineup? Who continuously left the hot bats on the bench for his favored light-hitting veterans, or his ridiculous platoons? Who mismanaged the heck out of his pitching staff, time, and time, and time again?
The one thing I don’t get about you Bobby Cox supporters and you Willie Martinez defenders is how quickly you want to blame the players for everything without understanding that the buck must stop with the manager and the coach.
Who manages or coaches the players? Who refuses to make the necessary adjustments to ensure the success of their defense or their team? Who is the one coaching fundamentals? Who is the one who stubbornly refuses to drop a struggling, rally-killing hitter from the clean-up spot? Who takes out Mike Bielecki and inserts Mark Wohlers an inning early, which if that never happens, then Wohlers never hangs a slider? Who is in charge?
It’s no surprise that the Martinez defenders and Cox supporters are most always the same people.
And that they are WRONG on both accounts.
hatfieldgeoff
September 25th, 2009
2:12 pm
The problem was with the Braves Organization. Somewhere along the line they put together teams to keep the streak of division titles going, not to win World Championships. The Eastern Division (which we were in during most of this time) was usually pretty weak and the Braves could have holes in the lineup and still wrapup the division a week or two early. Then the holes in the lineup would be our undoing in the playoffs or World Series. As someone state earlier Mariano Rivera is the main difference between the Yankess and the Braves in the 1990s and beyond. They had a closer that was at the top of his game for 7 or 8 years and the Braves kept giving away talent year after year to get a closer that was past his prime. Mark Wohlers, home grown talent, held it together one year and we won the world series that year. Bobby made plenty of mistakes over the years along with alot of good moves. But please save John Schuerholtz his share of the blame. The Florida Marlins a terrible organization that can’t draw flies with regard to attendance have two world Championships to the Braves one. That is the disgusting part of the Braves great run. If winning the division was what Baseball was about they would stop playing in September.
BugKiller
September 25th, 2009
2:14 pm
DROCK… you’re so full of crap it isn’t even funny.
If Bobby Cox had managed in ANY city that cared about baseball (New York, Boston, or Chicago) he WOULD have been FIRED after the 1996 World Series debacle.
If Bobby Cox had managed in ANY OTHER city but Atlanta, he WOULD have been fired after the 1997 NLCS debacle.
The ONLY reason Cox has held on to his job 13 years after he should have been fired is BECAUSE he manages in Atlanta.
Don’t be an idiot.
Lars Taint
September 25th, 2009
2:16 pm
I really don’t believe that most locals dislike Bobby. I think it’s just that the idiot “know it alls” that think he is awful are the ones that won’t shut up about it. He is one of the best managers of all time, and you people wouldn’t know a great manager if he wiped a booger on your face.
Mitchell
September 25th, 2009
2:19 pm
The fact is championships matter. The case against Bobby Cox in the post-season is overwhelming.
If the guy had any luck he would have at least two World Series rings. In many ways, he’s lucky to even have one.
no crying.
September 25th, 2009
2:29 pm
If the braves make it into the playoffs it will be because they are focused and they are the hottest team in baseball. It will take a miracle to get in, but if we do we should be competitive.
The main reason there is only one WS win is a lack of clutch hitting by our main guys. It should never have come down to one play and one pitch. We had our chances long before it came down to the last play. Plain and simple our players didn’t get the job done. You can’t blame Bobby for that. You have to dance with who brung ya. The game is played on the field not in the blog. Only those that have actually been on the field in the post season with the season on the line can speak with any authority. The rest of y’all are just passing gas in the wind. Get a life.
I remember what it was like to suck every year, and we sucked really sucked bad, never having a shot at playing .500 ball. Our goal was to just not lose 100 games. To be competitive and in the hunt every year for all these years is great. Most cities would be happy if their team is competitive once every few years.
Hey Booby; Thanks for the ride, It has been great.
when they had to. Managers aren’t on the field making plays or swing the bat.
Ugaman
September 25th, 2009
2:42 pm
I think if you listen to the players, they have said many times why we won only one World Series over the 14 years. It’s all about power pitching in the playoffs. The strike zones narrowed and hitters become more patient and pitchers like Maddux and Glavine couldn’t dominate in the postseason like they did in the regular season. I’ve heard Smoltz and Chipper talk about this many times. When you get to the postseason, the teams that prevail usually have dominant power pitchers. The only one we ever had was Smoltz, and we all know what he was like in the post season. We beat the Indians in ‘95 because they were free swingers and Maddux and Glavine could have their way with them. The Yankees, however, are known for being patient and going the other way, playing a National league style of ball. This has nothing to do with Bobby’s strategy, except maybe he could have started Smoltz in game 1, 4 and 7 in those series, but you wouldn’t think any manager would start Smoltz in front of 4 time Cy Young winner Maddux. Regardless, these are my thoughts on the whole postseason failure deal. It’s all about power pitching,baby, which is why I really like the pitching staf we have now.
Pi$$onaDawg
September 25th, 2009
2:43 pm
How can we upload pics? I owned a 64 Galaxie 500 4 door (Andy Griffith’s Police car) that we painted with scores, Homeruns, strikeouts, and the next team we beat. I drove it around Atlanta during the early 90’s games and we had a blast. Doing the CHOP and feeling the love from all the people of Atlanta. 89 Tech BBall in the final Four @ Denver, 90 Tech winning the National Championship in football, and the Braves Going to the World Series. What a GREAT 15 months to be in a Metro Atlanta Sports Bar.
greg
September 25th, 2009
2:47 pm
Leibrandt sucked back then…even a casual fan knew that…very, very bad move by Cox…
Bill from VA
September 25th, 2009
2:49 pm
…and I agree with you, UGA!
Herschel Talker
September 25th, 2009
2:50 pm
BUGKILLER: Spot on my friend. You’ve nailed it completely.
DROCK: You’re a fool. And you like men.
PI$$ONADAWG: You really like men. And you’re g@y.
EVERYONE ELSE: You can flush 2010 down the crapper.
Jim
September 25th, 2009
3:08 pm
In spite of all of his so-called ’shortcomings’, I will ALWAYS remain a Bobby Cox loyalist…You have to consider the ‘entire’ body of a man’s work in order to make a ‘fair’ judgement…I was disappointed, angry, and hurt in 91′, just like every other die-hard Braves fan, but I have to believe that 8 out of 10 times Liebrandt gets Puckett out & we win!…The folks who hold that move against Bobby are short-sighted in view of his tremendous accomplishments. I’m glad the Front-Office did the right thing, and gave our ‘Skipper’ a chance for a final farewell…I for one will be there both this year and next to say, “Thank You for all you’ve done for us!”
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
September 25th, 2009
3:27 pm
I think up until the mid 90’s Cox was very good, then he started making poor decisions. I think the first 4 series, he did and excellent job. I think something happened when we gave up the big hr to the Yankees. It’s like Bobby got very conservative on offense and played hunches to much on lineups & defense. We stop stealing bases or hit and runs.
Jeff
September 25th, 2009
3:29 pm
Maybe Bobby is responsible for Lonnie “Skates” Smith falling down rounding 2nd in Game 7 of the 1991 WS as well.
The common knock, and I heard this again a few times yesterday, was that Bobby had the best pitching in baseball for 14 years but only won 1 title, which is somewhat true. However, he had the best REGULAR SEASON pitching in baseball during that time.
In the postseason, when the weather gets cold, power arms dominate. During this time the Braves had one primary power arm, Smoltz. And Smoltz, despite often being the Braves’ 3rd or 4th best starter during the regular season, was their money starter during the postseason. The rest of the Braves rotation was often comprised of softer-tossing control oriented pitchers that were almost always better during the regular season then the postseason–Maddux, Glavine, Leibrandt, Neagle, Burkett, Ortiz, Hampton, Ramirez.
In fact, when one of Bobby’s soft tosser’s was as good in the postseason (or better) then they were in the regular season–e.g., Maddux’s two-hitter in Game 1 of the 1995 WS and Glavine’s one-hitter in Game 6, they won.
Could the Braves have won another title? Sure. Lonnie could have scored from first on Pndleton’s double, Reardon could have not done his gas can impression, Leyritz could have not hit the 3-run HR. But, none of those situations occurred because of Bobby’s tactical errors.
Rufus1
September 25th, 2009
3:31 pm
BOBBY SUPPORTERS
Marlins series
Say it Load…Down by one, bases loaded, 1 out…..GREG NORTON!!!!!
DEFEND IT!!!!!!!
Oregon Brave
September 25th, 2009
3:32 pm
Enter your comments here The Herbeck/Gant blown call in my opinion is the real reason we lost to the Twins.
Oregon Brave
September 25th, 2009
3:33 pm
The Herbeck/Gant blown call in my opinion is the real reason we lost to the Twins.
Sick of It
September 25th, 2009
3:39 pm
Ummmm. But it was still CHARLIE LEIBRANDT. Cox is a master of going to the well one too many times. And I was 14 years old when that decision was made, and I was screaming at the tv what a horrible idea that was BEFORE HE EVEN THREW A PITCH TO PUCKETT. A 14 year old knew that!!! Please stop standing up for Bobby. I love him for what he did for us, but DO NOT try to justify his boneheaded moves. Thanks.
Herschel Talker
September 25th, 2009
3:53 pm
THIS WHOLE COLUMN IS ABSURD. WHY THE HECK ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE TWINS SERIES?!? THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE EXAMPLES OF HIS BUFFOONERY THAT OCCURRED FAR MORE RECENTLY. TO SUGGEST THAT WE HAVE TO GO ALL THE WAY BACK TO 1991 TO FIND SITUATIONS THAT BOOBY SCREWED UP AND COST US VICTORIES AND CHAMPIONSHIPS IS NAIVE AT BEST AND DUPLICITOUS AT WORST. JEEZ PEOPLE. THERE ARE FAR MORE RECENT EXAMPLES OF BOOBY’S IDIOCY.
YOU CAN FLUSH 2010 DOWN THE CRAPPER!
Starring Kam Fong as Chin Ho
September 25th, 2009
3:54 pm
I was in the stands for the 2nd game the Braves played in Atl. I’m really just a Braves fan anymore, I just can’t get interested if the Braves are not playing. I’ve held season tickets from 1978 thru 1995 so I’ve seen my share of Braves baseball. The best baseball the Braves have played since they’ve been in Atl has come under Bobby Cox. Period, end of discussion. I will remember this time as the best time in Atl Brave history. I’ll miss Bobby when he’s gone and tell my grandchildren about the time when the Braves were the best team in baseball. We will never again have this kind of run. Thanks Bobby, you were and are one of the best ever. I hope you enjoy many years or retirement. The Hall of Fame awaits
Herschel Talker
September 25th, 2009
3:54 pm
IT’S THE 1998 NLCS – PAGING DANNY BAUTISTA!!!
Herschel Talker
September 25th, 2009
3:54 pm
IT’S THE 1997 NLCS – PAGING KEITH LOCKHART!!!
Sick of It
September 25th, 2009
4:02 pm
Keeper, you talked to Bobby Cox? You’re soooooo cool! I guess that means you have real insight! Does Bobby call you on the phone to discuss strategy after the games? Give me a break. Just because you met Booby and were star struck doesn’t mean he doesn’t suck. Sorry.