Your attention, please: This guy here criticizes Bobby Cox!

robby

September 8th, 2009
12:36 am

I love Bobby Cox. I think he is one of the best managers. But I now think that he should step down. We need change and it needs to start in the dugout.

Ghost of Shane Vendrell

September 8th, 2009
12:40 am

WooHoo! This so needed to be said. Cox is just like Tom Landry. Dallas had Jerry Jones to put him out to pasture, will Frank Wren be willing to do the same?

Ostrich Racer

September 8th, 2009
12:45 am

I’m one of those people who believes things just haven’t been the same since Leo left. That’s an oversimplification, and perhaps it gives him too much credit for coaching geniuses, but the number don’t lie. I’m not a McDowell fan. True, the dyanmic is substantially different now, but Bobby has not forgotten how to manage, and Leo had tremendous success keeping people healthy over the years. Bring back the other half of the brain!

bruce

September 8th, 2009
12:50 am

I bet next year we see that Jordan Shafer playing with injured wrist was the problem in the first two months. No telling how many games that cost us. Probably enough to lose the season. When something in a wrist snaps, it needs to be repaired. Now it has been repaired, only about five months too late.

Frankie Knuckles

September 8th, 2009
12:51 am

He has gotten softer in his older age. Unless you share a surname with a certain drug kingpin he isn’t being hard enough. Chipper shouldn’t have been hitting 3rd for a while now and Greg Norton??? Even Greg Norton has to be asking why? Kelly Johnson is another.

Joe

September 8th, 2009
1:01 am

I think Bobby Cox should step down or Frank Wren should fire him either one of these needs to happen asap. I’ve said this before that if the yankees can fire Joe Torre who won 4 rings for them then why are the braves still holding on with Bobby Cox who only won 1 ring and screwed up alot of other chances he is pass his time and the braves need a change.

The braves need to also trade chipper jones this offseason and yunel escobar. chipper is not going to hep the braves like he use too and they can get some good pieces in returun for him like say trade him to LAA for Gary Matthews Jr., Howie Kendrick and a minor league prospect.

Ghost of Shane Vendrell

September 8th, 2009
1:03 am

Yea, that’s what the Braves need to do, trade Escobar, their best player. That is one of the dumbest things that can be said.

Joe

September 8th, 2009
1:06 am

response to Ghost of Shane Vendrell comment.

why keep Yunel? He is a knucklehead and he slacks off at times on plays I’m surprised by your comment cause I’ve spoken with lots of braves fans and they agree with me.

BugKiller

September 8th, 2009
1:07 am

Mark,

Honest question, trying to ask it logically and totally without bias.

How is Bobby Cox the best manager you’ve ever seen?

Seriously, think about it for a second. Think about all of those wasted Octobers. I count that out of those 14 years, Cox had the BEST team in baseball six times. Three times he had one of the ALL-TIME great teams in baseball.

Of those six (and the three in those seven) teams, NOT ONE won a World Series.

1991 the Braves had a better team, but it was CLOSE, so the homefield (and umpire) advantage the Twins had couldn’t be overcome.

1993. One of the three ALL-TIME greatest baseball teams.

1994 the Braves were far better than the Expos, but would have only gotten a Wild Card. Too bad the strike happened.

1996. The second of the three.

1997. The third of the three.

2002. A huge disappointment.

Here’s the thing, 1992, the Jays had the better team. In 1999, the Yankees had the better team. In 2001, the Diamondbacks had the better team.

So, out of 14 trips to October, the Braves lost to the better team only THREE times.

They beat the better team in 1995 because Hargrove is a bigger Dunce of the Dugout than Cox, if that’s possible.

So, that means the Braves LOST TO A WORSE TEAM TEN TIMES!!!

Think about that for a minute. Really think about that.

Not winning three series in a row, from 1995-1997 is by far Cox’s fault. Losing to the Phillies in 1993 is Cox’s fault.

Why, Mark, if you have the BEST postseason pitcher in the HISTORY of baseball, do you let guys who disappoint year after year in October (Glavine and Maddux) start ahead of him?

In a seven game (or five) series, SMOLTZ is the guy ANY manager who isn’t a complete idiot would start in game 1.

But Cox, as always, put way too much store into the regular season, and let the other guys get all the series starts, except in 1996, when his poor bullpen decisions (a recurring October theme) screwed the Braves in Game 4. I mean, Mike Beilecki was MOWING down the Yankees, so why even bring in Wohlers? If Wohlers isn’t in the game, he doesn’t hang that pitch that Leyritz smoked.

Cox overmanages when games matter the most when it comes to his bullpen.

But he also undermanages with his starting pitchers and bench. He leaves hot bats on the bench to languish while he brings in his favored, low-percentage “vets” (sound familiar?) to strike out.

When it’s win or go home, bottom of the ninth with two on and two out, instead of pinch-hitting for rally-killers like Andruw Jones, he let’s them kill the team. I count two straight postseasons ended on Andruw whiffs.

When it’s win or go home, Cox doesn’t manage with ANY sense of urgency. He’s the WRONG guy for October. He never puts the guys in the position to win.

He is the WORST postseason manager in the history of baseball. That means he can be in no way the best you’ve ever seen.

Here’s the adage you need to understand:

In the regular season, a good team can overcome a bad manager, because talent can overcome bad decisions over the course of 162 games.

In the postseason, a bad manager will SINK a talented team, and kill any chance they have of winning through his horrible decisions. Because you don’t have 162 games to hide behind. You win or you go home.

I give you Bobby J. Cox.

He’s the most overrated manager in the history of baseball. He’s a great GM, and he and Schuerholtz’s acquisitions in the late 80’s and early 90’s provided Atlanta with the most talented team in baseball most years.

But his managing kept that talent from achieving all it should have.

And I’m SICK of people excusing his poor performances by calling the playoffs a “crapshoot.” Winning ONCE in 14 times is NOT a crapshoot. You know what is?

Winning 4 times in 12 tries. Joe Torre did that. THAT’S a crapshoot.

Winning 1 time in 14 is a TREND. The Braves weren’t the Dodgers. Most of those years, the Braves WERE the Yankees. Top payroll, top talent.

But unfortunately, the Braves didn’t have Torre in the dugout. They had the most overrated manager in baseball history.

BugKiller

September 8th, 2009
1:12 am

More proof that it was the talent and NOT Cox who should be given credit those 14 straight years?

Given worse talent than he used to have all those years, Cox hasn’t done ANYTHING to make it better.

In fact, some could say, because of the performance of some players (Andruw, Frenchy), Cox has made the talent WORSE.

Which would be the trend I pointed out.

All those years, Cox was given a Cadillac to drive and he treated it like a Yugo. Eventually, the car will break down. And it has.

Now, it’s just a simple question:

Who has done less with more, umm, more in his career? Bobby Cox or Willie Martinez?

The A Bomb

September 8th, 2009
1:16 am

Mark –

It’s clear — what made him great is what will eventually be his undoing — loyalty.

2009 is far different than 1980 or even 1991.

He has not done a good job of bringing this team together, at least on the field.

He should share the blame with a subpar coaching staff, but since he hired ‘em, I guess it’s his rear end.

You can be tough and liked at the same time — just like LaRussa.

Time for a change.

Joe

September 8th, 2009
1:17 am

BugKiller you are so right you couldn’t have said it any better your comment is absolutely right.

GK Chesterfield

September 8th, 2009
1:25 am

Gotta agree with Bug Killer, Mark. Bobby did very little with a lot. He seems to come up short when the talent level is even.

Hold on boys, we still need to play another down...

September 8th, 2009
1:31 am

Change the subject for a sec… I am curious if anyone else noticed that there was still time on the clock when the FSU pass fell incomplete in the endzone tonight. The ball was whistled incomplete and there was still a second showing on the clock. I figured they were reviewing the call not just to see if it was incomplete but to check the clock too. ESPN announcers never notice anything of course… they are dumb as fence posts.

sal governale

September 8th, 2009
1:31 am

Nice post, BugKiller. Although I’m sure Bradley stopped reading as soon as you pointed out that Smoltz is the best postseason pitcher of all time. Remember, in Bradley’s world, Smoltz’s most noteworthy and newsworthy accomplishment in his HOF career was going public with his disdain for vindictive hack “journalists”.

FSU game clock?

September 8th, 2009
1:39 am

Just curious if anyone noticed that FSU still had a tick on the clock when their third down pass fell incomplete in the endzone. Thought they had another shot, especially after the officials reviewed the play and didn’t seem to look at the clock.

Bob in SF

September 8th, 2009
1:50 am

Who would replace him? They would want someone who knows the “Braves Way” but part of that way is Cox himself. When it comes to Cox proteges, does anyone think Terry Pendleton could run this team? Could Fredi Gonzalez be pried from the Marlins? Could Ned Yost be the answer? I agree the game has passed Bobby by but who is better right now that wants to come to Atlanta?

Joe

September 8th, 2009
2:00 am

Bob in SF

How about Bobby Valentine The Mets old skipper he could be a great replacement or maybe Willie Randolph the mets former manager.

Coach (2010 or Bust)

September 8th, 2009
3:11 am

Amen Bradley.

70 wins and 67 losses, 82 quality starts and a Pythagorean formula which says we should be 75-62. Fourth best team ERA and yet just one complete game. An overworked bullpen should never happen under these circumstances.

Next to dead last in stolen bases with 49. Ranked 22nd in HR’s, 21st in RBI, ranked 20th in defense and on and on it goes……

Underachievement is the word of the day. It is Bobby’s fault and to some degree, Frank Wren’s too. Our Braves can throw the ball (pitch), but they can’t catch it (defense). Nor can this team hit the ball (offense) or run the bases (small ball, steal bases). Frank Wren built this team too and he failed to do much of anything except fix the pitching. His in season trades were to little to late when combined with the inept management of Bobby Cox.

And Wren’s treatment of Smoltz and Glavine however necessary the need to part ways was embarrassing and shameful. Schuerholz all but apologized for the way Wren handled the situation.

That said, Cox needs to retire, obviously. Wren is on the bubble as far as I’m concerned. Our GM needs to work on his people skills, just ask Cal Ripken Jr.

scottbravesfan

September 8th, 2009
3:21 am

The Braves need a change at manager. They have a good shot at contending in 2010 with Hanson and Hudson in the rotation the whole year and Jason Heyward in right field. Hopefully Wren can get us someone, anyone who can hit to play left. But the team should be right there contending for a playoff spot, hopefully Bobby Cox won’t be the one to screw it up again.

abudefdef

September 8th, 2009
4:22 am

Cox is defending Greg Norton based on what he did for the Braves LAST YEAR. It is not 2008, Bobby, it is 2009. What has Greg Norton done for us THIS YEAR? Not much…time to cut the string and let Greg go.

"Chef" Tim Dix

September 8th, 2009
5:29 am

Mark, the biggest difference between this and prior years with BC has been Bobby use to stay with his starters one pitch too many.

5 1/3 this year got him itchy. 7 brought the hook.

Jair’s record when he went 7 and gave up 3 or less runs gives the most acurate description of this team and season.

Keith

September 8th, 2009
5:32 am

Great article with the stats. I’ve seen him make decisions regarding Greg Norton and pulling pitchers, etc, all year, and he fails this year.

Keith

September 8th, 2009
5:33 am

Note also: leaving the original lineup in too long…and not starting prado soon enough….

Capt Caveman

September 8th, 2009
5:44 am

COACH you are still the biggest a$$clown on this or any blog. Don’t think that I wont be on this blog daily to blast you back to where ever it is you come from. You cherry pick stats and always try to find a way to blame Bobby.

At least Mark uses substance and intelligence to voice his opinion. Everyone on here has read your endless drivel of insults towards Bobby. So stick it in your ear.

geno

September 8th, 2009
6:16 am

if Atlanta had more fans like bugkiller, the town might have a chance of leaving loserville….Cobby Box should have been gone long ago and that florida redneck too. The PAIN….of one championship in fourteen essentially nullifies 1995. …..PS…dont let the same thing happen with Mike Smith, after he fails(my belief), get rid of him.

Rod

September 8th, 2009
6:25 am

Why is it that no one is pointing a finger at our “hitting coach?” His inability to teach and/or fix a swing has been ongoing. Jeff F. started to hit after he was traded. Jordan S. Kelly J. Even goes back to A. Jones.

No silly name here

September 8th, 2009
6:35 am

Geno, Why do you bring up Mike Smith? Comparing him to Bobby Cox is stupid. Cox has had years and talent and has failed. Mike Smith after one year has showed he can at least make solid decisions. I don’t know where you come from but they need to check the water supply. It is doing major damage to your brain.

bull-gator

September 8th, 2009
6:41 am

Wren should have asked Cox and his staff to step down when he took the reins. Who knows, maybe he did and Cox said “I don’t think so”. In any event, Cox had a great run and now it’s time to leave. The entire dugout looks like they’re just going through the motions waiting until the last out of the 162nd game. I hope they don’t trample one another running out the clubhouse door. In the off season, Wren needs to get rid of Cox (and his staff), Johnson, Lowe, Hudson, Anderson, Norton, and Soriano. Pick up a 5 tool center fielder, platoon Chipper at 1st and drop him in the order to seventh when ever he’s in the lineup. maybe Chipper should consider retiring also. In any event, a shakeup is in order.

Average Joe

September 8th, 2009
6:51 am

Mark, I appreciate the attempt at criticism, but this article is ridiculous, a slap on Bobby’s hand at best. You gave us a disclaimer at the beginning of the article for this…?

Robert J. Cox is not God, nor is he an idol, a martyr, or a saint. He hasn’t discovered a cure for the common cold, and the last time I checked, he hasn’t raced into any burning buildings to save a child. In short, he’s human, fallible, and capable of being questioned. I just wanted to clarify it, Mark, in case you were confused.

Robert’s job is simple. Win. However you have to. Leave stupid and misplaced loyalty (this is a business) at the door, and give your team the BEST chance at winning. This 5 game slide onto their collective post-season couches began when Cox once again called upon No-hit Norton (not a name you desire if you are a HITTER) in Florida with a chance to tie the game after the Braves had battled back to within one run. And what did Norton do? He whiffed. Just like he’s done all season. All he needed was a fly ball, a grounder, some kind of CONTACT!!! The only thing he succeeded in was in sucking out all the momentum that had accumulated within this team in the past month. But Bobby had called upon HIS man, and whatever the outcome, it would all be ok.

So here’s the thing: why should the players care about winning when they see evidence every day that their manager doesn’t? Frenchy, Kelly Johnson, Jeff Bennett, Jordan Schafer, Manny Acosta. All “first string” players who played miserably for the first 3 months, and all of whom Cox refused to bench/cut/ etc. even after they each proved DAILY that they didn’t have it. Ah, the eternal optimism of Robert J.

Martin Prado, Matt Diaz. Just think what might have been if Cox had allowed these guys to play ALL season? A day late and a dollar short. That’s Robert. That’s how he’s been for most of his 18 years in Atlanta. It’s never his pitchers fault, never his hitters. The other team always seems to hit it where they ain’t and we hit line drives right at guys.

I’m sure Greg Norton is a great guy, but unfortunately he’s become a symbol of all that is so horribly wrong with Robert J. Cox’s style. If Robert doesn’t care, why should his players? Why should we?

Toots

September 8th, 2009
6:51 am

This season wasn’t lost in the last week or month. It was lost in the first two months when Jordan Schafer and Kelly Johnson were everyday players. The Braves should have kept Josh Anderson, until an appropriate (Nate McLouth) trade came along, and played Martin Prado from the get go. They squandered two months and dug themselves a hole. It could have been avoided.

Mitch C

September 8th, 2009
6:52 am

Thank you, Mark! Finally, you criticize Bobby. I’ve been waiting five months to see this, and, quite frankly, I’ve been waiting for as long as I’ve been blogging here. (A year or two?).

You know that I have to ask about what you didnt say. It’s the obivious question after the fourth straight disappointing season. Is it time for a new manager? I will be very interested to hear your thoughts on this.

After what Bobby has done for this orginization, and all the success he had from 1991 to 2005, I would never say to “Fire” him completely. I would create a job title for him in the front office, put him in it, give him a paycheck from the Braves for as long as he wants it, and hire a new manager. A manager who won fourteen straight division titles deserves that, even if he didnt do a good job managing this year.

What do you think should happen with Bobby? Should he stay as manager, or should he go?

Mitch

Slug27marathons

September 8th, 2009
6:53 am

I am thankful for what Bobby has done also, even though his managerial style always changed (for the worse) in the playoffs! But what’s wrong with stealing a base, or bunting – once in a while? Yes the Braves seem dead in too many games. Where’s the fire?

01HAWK

September 8th, 2009
6:54 am

In order to rule out favoritism………………….The entire coaching staff needs to go. Also these players need to go by trade or released.

Norton, Carlyle, Acosta, Try to trade Lowe.

MiltonDawg

September 8th, 2009
7:14 am

All things must come to an end. Having said that, Cox will never be forgotten in this town but it is time for a new regime change. Move him to the front office or something. Need someone about 30-40 yrs younger in there—someone with fire who can kick these boys in the butt to make them play with passion. Such a pathetic performance against the Reds and will be shocked if we actually win a game against the Astros. Season over!!

bravesBobblehead

September 8th, 2009
7:23 am

Bobby has let the pitchers go to many innings when they appeared to lack their quality stuff and they were rocked, royally.

greg

September 8th, 2009
7:41 am

Lets look at it this way. He had a team with three frigging first ballot Hall of Fame starting pitchers and they won how many world series? End of story. Case closed.

kennyh

September 8th, 2009
7:44 am

the problem is terry pendleton..the braves are not hitting when it counts.. he has got to go even if Cox stays!

crose714

September 8th, 2009
7:45 am

Sure, lets toss him like Dale Murphy, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz. Who cares if he is an Atlanta Icon and has done more for the Atlanta Braves than any other owner, general manager, on-field manager or player? Atlanta, what a great sports city… Embarrassing.

Daniel #12

September 8th, 2009
7:45 am

Bobby has done well (understating the obvious!) but his achilles heel has always been his handling of the bullpen. His bullpen has always been a series of one inning appearances. That wears out a bullpen by August. It is far more stressful to throw a reliever an inning a day for three days in a row than 3 innings then 2 days off. His formula for pulling a pitcher after one inning wears out the pen. Look at Chris Medlen. Very effective this season. Last week pitched well first day. Got hammered next two days.

the evil rich

September 8th, 2009
7:47 am

Off year, more like off decade….Come on, continuing to hit/play slumping (and oh, so tired) Chipper? Norton as a critical pinch-hitter? the WRONG batting order/lineup that continues to leave the Braves with two-out opportunity after two out opportunity? Terry Pendleton?

ENOUGH!!!!

Nativebird

September 8th, 2009
7:48 am

Shock! Appalled! Aghast! How DARE you! Thou hast committed thy worst sin thou could have ever even think of committing in said town of the ever-lasting-dependence-upon-the-mediocre-who-delivered-the-one-splinter-of-1995-excellence; Thou hast cast ASPERSION upon the Great Enabler of Mediocrity! Surely his patrons will radiate mighty revenge upon thy brave but honest servant of the painful truth! Be prepared my son!

lawton

September 8th, 2009
8:05 am

going into next year:
1.braves dont have a true leadoff man. mclouth is ok, but not a STOLEN BASE guy that teams fear. thats the FIRST problem. they dont manufacture runs.
2.braves dont have that big bopper in the outfield. sheffield was there in free agency, but for some reason, the braves have this thang…………
3. the braves dont play sound defense. use to be a time where you could count on the braves solid defense behind the pitching.
4. chipper shouldve been traded couple seasons ago to give more flexibility in their manuevers. they couldve BEEN had another starting pitcher for chipper, then be in a position to bolster the lineup this past off season. his errors and injuries do more to hurt the team than his bat.
5. the farm system aint what it used to be with the trading away of everybody, but its getting better.

Phil

September 8th, 2009
8:06 am

Hell has just been frozen over, Bradley criticizes Cox….

Mac

September 8th, 2009
8:12 am

All true. I’m a huge Bobby Cox fan, but I do hope he will retire after this season.

Mac

September 8th, 2009
8:14 am

Heh, heh. Milton Dawg wants a 28-year-old manager. No thanks.

leland

September 8th, 2009
8:15 am

Dear Mr. MB–did you get today’s CYSC? It’s real hard, but I got it. If you need any help, let me know. (Look at the bottom of the picture.) Your pal, Leland

Phil

September 8th, 2009
8:16 am

Marv Levy went to 4 sraight Super Bowls, probably more impressive than Cox winning 14 division titles. Division titles are are the only the first step, you want to get to the World Series or the Super Bowl. Is Marv Levy considered one of the greatest NFL coaches of all time? Don’t think so. Championships is what counts, not Division titles.

oldmike

September 8th, 2009
8:18 am

Mark- It’s Bobby’s call from what I am told. So, do you really think a 68 year old man with nothing else to do is going to retire? Not likely. So we are stuck with him for as long as he wants to stay. Which is sad. I agree entirely with Daniel 12. Stop using the bullpen the way he uses it. Pitch them multiple innings when they have great stuff. Don’t trot them out there day after day. Let the starters go longer than 7. Etc., etc.

Phil

September 8th, 2009
8:19 am

Being a Braves fan is a lot like being a Florida State fan. You keep hoping and praying that “Bobby” will finally leave.

curtis jones

September 8th, 2009
8:20 am

Disappointing column, Mark. You had the chance to write that courageous, “It’s Time To Go, Mr. Cox” column, and you blew it. Don Knotts could have managed Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, etc. to several first place finishes, and probably more than one championship.

Said it once, will say it again. If you love 3rd-4th place finishes, year after year, you gotta love Cox (pun intended).

Mama Cox

September 8th, 2009
8:21 am

I’m still the best Mama.

raleighbravefan

September 8th, 2009
8:21 am

I have always been a Bobby supporter, but I think it’s time for him to go. Mismanagement of bullpen, and stubornly sticking with guys like Frenchy, KJ, and NORTON have convinced me he has lost it. I would like to see Ned Yost come back.

I went to the Carolina Mudcats vs Braves game Saturday to see Heyward and Freeman. Freeman was on the 7 day DL, and Heyward was called up to Gwinett earlier that day. Guess I’ll have to wait until early next year when the G Braves come to Durham Bulls.

RobertNAtl

September 8th, 2009
8:22 am

Geez, there you go again, criticizing Bobby Cox. You’re like a broken record.

Nativebird

September 8th, 2009
8:24 am

Oh THANK you MB for not calling a division 1st place finish a “Championship”! This characterization that Schuerholz continues to promelgate (to overcome his obvious and transparent insecurity about this franchises UNDER-achievements) is a big part of the problem. LOW expectations and not rocking the boat are the result of years of cashing the big paycheck from a town happy with NOT being horrible. And Schuerholz ID’d this rocking chair LONG ago.

Greg

September 8th, 2009
8:27 am

Cox needed to go after the playoff run with one title. The fact they could only win one series with 14 trips to the playoffs says it all. football and baseball are very close to baseball in terms of teams that make the playoffs. well, the bills went to 4 sb’s and lost. imagine making the playoffs in the nfl 14 times and only winning one SB. the law of anerages says no. because baseball’s season is so long and the braves were the top spenders in the 90’s and had great pitching, the blame for their failures lies with cox. he’s lost so many games leaving a starter in, playing a certain player when another is playing better, etc. the team this year is lazy. esp chipper. the pitchers have done their job. the bullpen is shaky. some have done well. some have done terrible. but the inconsistent hitting and errors and decisions by cox to leave guys in or play guys who stink are the reasons. go retire bobby. let’s get some new faces in here.

Twitter Trackbacks for Your attention, please: This guy here criticizes Bobby Cox! | Mark Bradley [ajc.com] on Topsy.com

September 8th, 2009
8:27 am

[...] Your attention, please: This guy here criticizes Bobby Cox! | Mark Bradley blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2009/09/08/your-attention-please-this-guy-here-criticizes-bobby-cox – view page – cached Mark Bradley of the AJC does soBmething he has almost never done: He claims Bobby Cox hasn’t had the best of seasons. — From the page [...]

Archangel

September 8th, 2009
8:29 am

If this was any other team with any level of self respect,(Yankees) Bobby Cox would have been gone a long time ago.

Chef montuer

September 8th, 2009
8:33 am

BASEBALL SEASON IS NOW OFFICIALLY OVER IN ATLANTA.LETS TALK FOOTBALL.

Chef montuer

September 8th, 2009
8:34 am

I Know. One

BravesGone

September 8th, 2009
8:35 am

Cox should have retired years ago. The Braves underachieve every year with the talent they have, which isn’t great, due to a poor front office, mismanage pitchers, screw up run producing opportunities with bad decisions, etc.

drb

September 8th, 2009
8:39 am

The 14 first place finishes were wonderful, But Torre or La Russa would have added 3 or 4 championships to the totals. “Bubbles the Chimp” could have won one World Series with the lineups the Braves had in the ’90’s. It’s a shame what Cox has done to the Braves’ bullpen. He has ruined more relievers’ arms than the splitter. Moylan will never be the same after this year.
In 2007, the Braves didn’t have a very good roster. In 2008, injuries couldn’t be avoided. This year there are no excuses. The players and the coaches didn’t come through. It’s time to clean house. I don’t envy Frank Wren. He has a tough job ahead. And the first order of business is to find a new coaching staff. The Cox era is over.

Nativebird

September 8th, 2009
8:39 am

With all due respect, Bill Cowher didn’t have a football team with the talent to win his division 14 straight years.

gobravez

September 8th, 2009
8:41 am

I’ll always be a fan no matter what, but I honestly don’t think I can ever be excited about following this team again until someone other than Bobby Cox is the manager. It doesn’t matter what kind of team we are putting on the field when we have a manager that couldn’t even effectively manage a little league team anymore.

BravesFan79

September 8th, 2009
8:42 am

Love ya Bobby… but your bullpen decisions have just gotten worse and worse over the years. I would like to see Bobby promoted to a position where he was close enough tto the field to yell encourgament, yet not the one pulling the strings on pitching decisions…etc…

Be-little, BeBOLD

September 8th, 2009
8:44 am

I’ve been blogging this exact thing four the last five years . . . this man is the cause, not the answer to the Braves. He never seems to look at stats of player vs. player in given situations. He just knows he is SMARTER than any stat and makes his choice by how long a bugger he can pull from his nose! And his coaches (all his boys) need recycling too! Chipper is his “SON” and will continue to play as long as Bobby is manager and retire when Bobby does. He can’t get away with his “oblique”, ‘toe’, wrist, back, neck, brain injury when he wants to sit down every time he goes into his slumps. Had the best season of his career last year because he wanted a new contract. He got it and you know the rest . . . .

rhynster

September 8th, 2009
8:50 am

Everyone blames Bobby for not winning with better talent all those years.

But who’s to say the talent would have been that good without him?

That’s the part everyone glosses over. for years we saw players come and go through here and have career years with the Braves and flame out elsewhere.

Anyway, yeah, Bobby needed to manage old school NL style this year and didn’t. How many SBs did McLouth have as a Brave before he got hurt? I’d guess not many.

John Tucker

September 8th, 2009
8:50 am

Bradley:

You are too kind to Bobby Cox. His sleep apnia and inability to recal the names of more than 4 or 5 relievers in the bullpen have caused the Braves second half fade.

Cox’s best days are long gone, and the longer he lingers, the more he tarnishes his legend.

Bobby is a good guy for whom palyers love to play, be ause he will never show them up publicly.

However, the Braves need somebody younger and more alert to make the proper moves in mid-game when Bobby has been asleep at the switch and fAiled to pull pitchers before a 0ne or two run inning turns into a 5 run inning. Or failed to find a pinch hitter other than Greg Norton on the bench despite better numbers and better speed from Omar infante, Kelly johnson and Brooks Conrad.

It’s time for the Old Braves Regime (CHipper, bobby & Norton) to go away and let the young guys play.

J-man

September 8th, 2009
8:51 am

I have 2 words about Cox and Wren – Greg Norton. Why is this guy still on the roster? That’s Wren’s fault. Why is he still being allowed to fail? That’s Cox’s fault. I guess Cox is entering the Connie Mack phase of his career where he won’t retire and he’s just living off his past.

rhynster

September 8th, 2009
8:51 am

Ugh, if my old journalism professors saw that post above, they’d revoke my degree.

Virginia "old" fan

September 8th, 2009
8:52 am

You are full of manure. Bobby Cox manages one way, always has, but when you have Hall of Fame pitching and an all star lineup, you get by with it. Atlanta media are so biased that it is hard to believe that you have ever watched a ball game.

Nativebird

September 8th, 2009
8:57 am

Hey no one (or at least me) is saying Bobby Cox is/was a bad manager, in fact, yes, ONE of the all time best I’ve ever seen. a TRUE baseball man that players love to play for and a LOT of wins. A big part of this franchises UNDER-achievements is/was the Upper Management. But make no mistake, in MOST other baseball towns, 1 WS out of this incredibly talented run is a HUGE letdown. It has been glossed over because of yes the horrible decades before it, and this town was just happy not being horrible.

Herschel Talker

September 8th, 2009
8:58 am

MB – this is a start! You are finally realizing what we in the know have realized for a long time. The fact you still consider him a great manager is absurd. But you’re getting closer. If you would, please respond to this; I sincerely want to know what you’re thinking:

What makes him such a great manager? He is one of the worst tacticians and game handlers out there. He’s good at one thing: handling egos when he has a lot of superstars. Considering the team hasn’t been in that spot for quite a few years, and therefore that skill is no longer necessary, haven’t his lack of managerial skills become obvious? How is your criticism above not applicable to the last few years? Continuing to bat Andruw fourth, persisting with Frenchy, etc…

raleighbravefan

September 8th, 2009
8:58 am

I believe Chipper has a lot to give to this team for at least another year or 2. However, he needs to accept a deminished role. He probably should switch to first base (if we don’t sign AL to a one year deal), and definitely should play less games and move down in batting order.

bvillebaron

September 8th, 2009
9:00 am

Mark:

Bobby Cox is and remains one of the worst strategical managers in the history of baseball. It is one thing to manage a club over 162 games to win 14 straight division championship with the best talent and another to make the right decisions in the playoffs to, as you describe, put the team in the best position to win. I could write a book on his stupid strategical decisions during those 14 playoff years,but winning only 1 World Series in 14 tries sums it up best. His loyalty to non-performing players (latest example Greg Norton) and penchant for burying and then trading away players he doesn’t like (e.g. Jason Marquis) have hurt this team for years and absolutely killed them this season. With all due respect, if you truly believe Bobby Cox is the greatest manager you ever saw, you either don’t watch a lot of baseball or only watch the Braves.

Phil

September 8th, 2009
9:00 am

I don’t think anyone on here proclaimed Bill Cowher the greatest NFL coach of all time. So what’s your point about him?

drb

September 8th, 2009
9:00 am

Mark,
Just about everyone responding to you column thinks that it’s time for Cox to retire. Who would be some of your choices for a replacement?

Josh

September 8th, 2009
9:01 am

Bobby Cox is not and has never been a good manager!!!! Who couldn’t win all those years throwing Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Avery, Millwood, Schmidt, Neagle, Mercker, Byrd, and many others who have had a very good years and many have won CY Youngs. If Jim Leyland would have had these teams in the 1990’s the Braves would have won at least three or four World Series. Cox is not very good and I would say he is at best average. I would go as far to say that he is a joke!!! It is just what I think. Get someone new in there please!!!

PMC

September 8th, 2009
9:06 am

Mark has he really handled this ball club any differently than he has the last 20 years? Perhaps his greatest failing is in having too much faith in players that simply aren’t as good as the ones they have had previously.

The bullpen was suspect at best. Gonzo and Soriano have talent but you need two closers with them because neither one is capable of a season of dominance. Thier long relievers have been average to bad for a while and Bobby takes out starters at around 100 pitches most of the season no matter what to pinch hit them with the Greg Nortons of the world.

He hasn’t changed…. and quite literally that’s the problem when thier talent isn’t equitable though he would never admit it.

Frank Wren’t done a hell of a job with the pitching staff, but with that budget it’s hard to go buy sluggers I guess with so much more money and talent in the American League.

I didn’t think this team was talented enough to be a playoff team at the beginning anyway. IF they win 85… it’s still a heck of an improvement from last year.

Soothsayer

September 8th, 2009
9:09 am

The last time I checked, managers don’t play baseball. Players play baseball. Now that Teddie’s checkbook is gone, the quality of the players has suffered. Firing Bobby Cox is shooting yourself in the foot because you lost the race.

Barnesy

September 8th, 2009
9:09 am

The fourteen year run created a culture that established goals of making the playoffs, not winning the World Series. The game has changed, Bobby has not. Change managers? Why? Until there is an ownership group that is dedicated to winning, Wren and Bobby have a home at the half way house known as The Braves.

hugh g rection

September 8th, 2009
9:10 am

Agree Mark, but then look at some (La Russa) who can somehow get more from less year after year. There is no excuse for dragging out lineup changes which are painfully obvious. Blindness in the name of loyalty. The other night he blamed the Jim Wolf’s strike zone, as if we didn’t mess up all our own chances to score for cryin out loud. As Leo D. said…

jerry

September 8th, 2009
9:10 am

14 division titles in a row—-a large meteor hitting the earth every hundred thousand years doesn’t mean it had a better aim than the ones that missed. Flukey things happen.

hugh g rection

September 8th, 2009
9:12 am

Load up $$$ on the Astros tonight!

Phil

September 8th, 2009
9:15 am

PMC,
Good point and I have been saying the same thing for years. Cox has been making idiotic decisions for the last 20 years, nothing has changed. He’s just older now and little more senile, but he’s still pretty much the same bad manager he’s always been.

My question for all you Cox lovers is this. How much longer do you want to keep the guy? Another 10 years when he will almost be 80 years old? When is enough, enough??

smoochies

September 8th, 2009
9:16 am

Bobby Cox should have been gone two years ago. It’s the only way the Braves will able to progress.

Elmer

September 8th, 2009
9:16 am

Cox’s fault is tha he wears out his relievers– Wholers, Rocker, Gonzales– you can add others. Moylan is just he latest .

AtlMan

September 8th, 2009
9:22 am

Seriously? Despite our great batting average??? you think this is a playoff caliber lineup with an outfield of Mcclouth, Grandpa Anderson, and Matt Diaz? Plus Chipper forgetting how to hit and 1st base being just average. When you’re expecting all your power to come from your catcher you’re destined for a September swoon. Put one power hitter in the lineup and ditch shaffer, frenchy, norton, johnson a lot earlier and we are rolling into the playoffs. I do blame Cox for the latter but the truth is we have no power and no speed. You can’t survive like that.

Phil

September 8th, 2009
9:23 am

14 straight Division titles in a Division with bad teams like the Expos. That’s your argument Bradley? When he got into post season against good teams and good managers, it wasn’t a contest, he was exposed for the below average manager that he is.

And before you say he did manage to win 1 WS title, let me bring up that Cito Gaston won 2 WS titles. Let me repeat, Cito Gaston won 2. Luck can happen to anyone.

MaSSaHH

September 8th, 2009
9:25 am

We need Fredi Gonzales to manage the Braves. He knows the braves good enough to win a championship with. If he can manage a Florida team well above .500, I’ll take my chances with Fredi.

59bulldawg

September 8th, 2009
9:26 am

Cox is the best you’ve seen? LOL! Surely you jest! How about Tony LaRussa, Tommy Lasorda, Billy Martin, Joe Torre, Casey Stengel, Whitey Herzog, Earl Weaver or Dick Williams? Better than those guys? If you’ve only been watching since 1991 then you haven’t seen much baseball have you? But if that be the case even then you place Bobby above LaRussa and Torre. Everyone has their opinions and I respect that but I can’t rank Bobby that high. There are more important factors to good managing than longevity. Cox is the most over-rated manager in the history of the game. At his very best he’s average!

BartMan

September 8th, 2009
9:30 am

I do like the thought of not being creative with the lineup. When you rely SO heavly on a #3 hitter who can only play MAYBE 75 games at %100 health and a total of 130 games a year and your catcher is your cleanup guy. He should only catch 130 games a year… Those are two very important parts of the lineup to have in constant flux. Also, you just knew McClouth was going back to the leadoff spot when he got back, dispite batting about 250 there before he was hurt. What was Diaz batting in the leadoff spot??? About 400???? Yea, drop him to 6th or 7th.

Don

September 8th, 2009
9:30 am

Bobby Cox has never been a “great” manager. He is however great in tems of keeping teams on an even keel, spirits up etc. Also the players like him (which has good and bad points) – if they keep there nose clean, he basically lets them do what they want (example – most players don’t have the maturity to understand the necessity of working the count for the overall result of improved run production and want the freedom to swing at the first thing they see).
Cox has never reacted quickly to obvius lineup changes that need to be made (Prado, Diaz, Fracoeur, Schafer, and others being examples this year.) He has never made essental changes in the batting order to move hot and cold players up and down. He has always misused his bullpen and made terrible bullpen decisions. He has always made in game moves that thakes the pressure off the opposing pitcher instead of putting pressure on when the pitcher is struggling. In key game strategy situations, he habitually does exactly what the opposing manager would like to see him do insted of vice versa. He seems to have no offensive game play – his offensive game play in basically to make out the lineup and then be a cheerleader. He sometimes makes terrible in game strategy moves. And most important of all, he has never taught/emphasized/demanded working the count – being selective – - This is essential to having consistant run production because it enables your hitters to see what the pitcher has, adjust to the pitcher, get better pitches to hit, makes him make misntakes, tires him out both within innings and for the game, gets you into the teams weak middle relief etc. Being a player manager and getting along with the players enabled Bobby Cox to win in a situation where he had All Star Pitiching so great and so far superior to all other teams that he won during the long 162 game regular season in spite of his weakness as a manager. But remembe even with this great advantage, he usually only barely won the Division – and won only one WS in 14 tries.

The Lemmer

September 8th, 2009
9:30 am

While I don’t dispute the notion that BC has made some poor decisions this year, the problem lies in the fact that the Bravos have a lackluster cast.

I’ve said on here for awhile now that the pitching has been decent, but look at the guys playing everyday.

- Matt Diaz: I don’t care if he has the highest average on the team or that he hustles. He would hit 7 or 8 for a contender at best. Not a run producer and his defense is painful to watch.

- Garrett Anderson: Was a great player…..9 years ago.

-Nate McClouth: “Leadoff man” with a .260 average and .350 OBP (at least Francoeur knocked in some runs occasionally). The only reason he was an All-Star was because the Pirates had to send someone…

-Brian McCann: Is this what $3.7 million buys? A guy that can’t play a day game after a night game? He’s only 25!

-Chipper: Old…..but has played in more games than any other player this year…crazy!!!

These guys resemble the cast of Major League. Maybe if we get rid of Bobby, and hire Lou Brown….

boratman310

September 8th, 2009
9:30 am

I agree with the comments on the blog.

Vickers

September 8th, 2009
9:31 am

Cox has been a great manager but his biggest flaw has been that he is too loyal to some of his players. He should have replaced Francoeur with Diaz long before Frenchy was traded and made the move to put Prada at second and sit Johnson earlier. That’s 2 of the Braves best players that weren’t starters for much of the first half of the season. Chipper has obviously been tired and worn out for a couple of months and has lost his hitting stroke. Give him a long rest. In addition, I’m tired of watching Cox pick his nose every time he’s on camera. I hope he retires soon.

Shaun

September 8th, 2009
9:33 am

The Braves rank in the middle of the pack in on-base percentage and are below average in slugging. That’s why they are in the middle of the pack in runs scored. How much of that is Cox’s fault?

Sting 'em Buzz

September 8th, 2009
9:33 am

It’s time to hang up the spikes Bobby. This team was in contention less than a week ago, and just dropped an egg. Resign NOW!

Bill

September 8th, 2009
9:33 am

We all agree Bobby Cox was a HOF manager. Now its time for change. Move Cox upstairs and get Mill the bench Coach from Boston are Jose 3b coach from Cards .

I respect Marks opinion and also respect Bugkillers=we all agree Cox needs to go!

Thanks Mark for speaking up…….keep up the good work.

boratman310

September 8th, 2009
9:36 am

Will someone or a group start a boycott of the braves games until they change the coaching staff and if Mr Wren does not change them consider letting hin go also. The braves organization have to make changes for them to succeed. The time has come to make changes.

woody

September 8th, 2009
9:37 am

You mean “NORMAL YEAR”. The BRAVES have only won World Series and that was like 13 years ago. This is Normal season for the last 10 years it’s been this way.
Get them off the TV it time for FOOTBALL!!! WOOOHHOO BRAVES season is over!!! WHEEEEEE

Joey

September 8th, 2009
9:38 am

Mark, Well …..I,um …… I’m speechless. Great (and well needed) article. Maddux for Mgr!

The Lemmer

September 8th, 2009
9:38 am

Have you not looked at the crowds Borat??? There’s no need to boycott. Atlanta fans are as big a joke as the team….

DMac

September 8th, 2009
9:39 am

Thank you Bradley for finally, at least somewhat, acknowledging that the emperor has no clothes. And it only took you until after Labor Day. Wow! Better late than never I guess. Seriously, thanks for finally saying in print what every Braves fan, with any baseball sense at all, has known for a long time, “Bobby Cox has had a bad year.”

Mac

September 8th, 2009
9:41 am

Bobby Cox is a better manager than Earl Weaver, Billy Martin and Whitey Herzog, all of whom won only one World Series. They didn’t come close to winning 14 straight Divisions. Thank you and good day. And, no, yo mama would not have won one World Series with Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine.

Scott

September 8th, 2009
9:42 am

This article reveals that statistics do not always = success. A lot of times this year the Braves did not get the clutch hits or the clutch pitching. Losing to below .500 teams will prove to be their downfall this year.

59bulldawg

September 8th, 2009
9:43 am

Don’t recall using that as a yard stick but since you did let’s compare appearances to wins ratio.

Remo Prato

September 8th, 2009
9:46 am

If there is an appropriate summary for Bobby Cox, it is “… loyal to a fault”. It is indefensible that Cox used Kelly Johnson and Greg Norton when there were more productive players available on the bench or in Gwinnett. And the failures of these players were significant. The stubbornness of Cox in refusing to make these changes cost the Braves at least five games. If you don’t think that’s significant, look at the difference in the standings with another 5 wins. Cox cost us a fun September! Be gone before you destroy another season.

Poorbrave

September 8th, 2009
9:49 am

Mac, John and Frank lets see if you have the balls to retire Bobby Cox.

Navigator

September 8th, 2009
9:50 am

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the Braves winning that one World Series has crippled this franchise. I really think had Cleveland won, Cox would have been gone. I guess we take the scraps, 5 world series, one lucky win (thanks mostly to Tom Glavine). Let’s also not forget what he did in Toronto, having lost a series with a big lead, only to have one of his coaches win back to back World Series with the same Toronto team. I do however, blame Wren for signing Chipper to three years after winning the batting title. Did he happen to notice that Chipper didn’t even knock in 85 RBI’s with that title. That says that Chipper constantly failed to hit with runners on base, just like now. His bat has slowed down, and his ability to find the pitch early has pretty much ended an otherwise productive career.

atlbravesfan44

September 8th, 2009
9:51 am

Others who have had “off” years:

Chipper’s slugging percentage is lowest in his career, and only once since 1998 has it dipped below .500 for a season.
McCann’s OPS+ of 117 is 2nd lowest in his career. On pace for most strikeouts and fewest hits of his career
Garret Anderson has been a mediocre player for quite some time, but he is on pace for his lowest slugging percentage in 12 years and lowest OBP in 5.

Not defending Cox. He’s made some atrocious moves this year, and I’m being serious when I say I believe his mental capacity is leaving him due to age (not just in a baseball sense). But to overlook the fact that the “heart” of the order has struggled the way they have and pin it all on Cox would be unfair. Hopefully Anderson will retire and McCann will bounce back. But I must ask this question. Is Chipper a 2-hole hitter at this point in his career? And would it be best to give him a day off per week and bring in a defensive replacement late in games (a la Bonds in his final years)? I know he avoided the DL for the most part this year, but I believe his stats suffered due to the lack of “rest”. It will take someone other than the stubborn Cox to make this happen.

eyeball kid

September 8th, 2009
9:51 am

Mark,

Why Cox has only 1 WS: 1991 – Ridiculous out “Hrbek”, Metrodome ventillation 2 balls that were crushed but pushed back.
1992 – Loses closer in September “Pena” and has to with late pickup “Reardon”, Nixon called out on a steal when he was safe.
1993 – Roided up Phillies team
1996 – In September loses left handed reliever “Borbon” who had not given up a hit to a left handed batter all year, Tim Welke decides to impede Dye’s path a routine fly ball in the 6th inning of game 3 with the Braves up 5-0 and then decides to eject Cox later in the game.
1997 – one name “Eric Gregg”
1999 – Disabled List, Javier Lopez 40 – 110 and Andres Gallaraga 40 – 120

This manager has had horrendous luck every year but 1995. If I sound like a homer, I am and proud of it!

gayle

September 8th, 2009
9:52 am

Cox needed to go years ago. The personality of this team was reduced to do whatever was necessary to make the playoffs then hope for the best, First round exits in 2002 – 2005 (many occuring in embarrassing fashion in a stadium where there were more fans of opponents than Braves’ fans) are proof of that.

But this team needs more than a Cox exit – it needs a change in culture. The 14 Division Titles are gone and so are all but one of the players who participated in that.

I was right about the season (.500, good pitching, no hitting, no speed, no playoffs) and now we need to lose Cox, Chipper and the Chop – and turn Turner Field back into a baseball stadium instead of some hideous arena version of Six Flags!!

Don

September 8th, 2009
9:53 am

Mr. Bradley, how did you figure out that Bobby Cox has not been effective this year. After all, he kept Francoeur in the linup when everyone’s grandmother knew that he was not going to produce, he kept Schafer up when he hadn’t evem learned to make consistant contact in the lower minors, he contiued to use a couple of guys in the bullpen during the first half who were terrible, he didn’t get Prado into the linup until a couple of months after it was obvious to everyone, Same story on Diaz, he kept Chipper in the 3rd spot in the batting order throughout his prolonged slump, he misused the bullpen the entire seasson, he has continued to use Norton as a pinch hitter, his in game strategy moves are an absolute joke, and the list goes on and on. BUT THE POINT YOU MISS – is that you could make a comparable list relating to every season he has managed.

Shaun

September 8th, 2009
10:01 am

This article reveals that statistics do not always = success.

Statistics measure how good a team is at certain things that help it succeed. And it’s clear the Braves are a mediocre offensive team because they are mediocre at getting on base/avoiding outs and are below average at accruing bases (slugging). I don’t know if anyone could provide convincing evidence that Bobby Cox is responsible for this.

eyeball kid

September 8th, 2009
10:02 am

How come my posts never post? Am I being censored for being a Cox fan? Through all his bad luck in the post season, he has never complained or made excuses.

eyeball kid

September 8th, 2009
10:03 am

I see this one went up without reference to my first post.

Old Timer Brave Fan

September 8th, 2009
10:08 am

Come on guys.. Give Bobby 1 more year.. Hudson will be back, New stars are emerging such as Hayward, Prado, Escobar, Hanson. Trade Chipper and Gonzales for Uggla the Braves killer,bring back Leo.
Trade for a power hitter in the out field. Who knows the system like Bobby ?Even though he hasn’t won the series but once.. The Braves have been a contender for years.
How many teams can say that?
Maybe we can get Torre to move to Atlanta in 2011 and manage the Braves
How mant teams can say that?

Freddie G

September 8th, 2009
10:09 am

Ostrich Racer, Did you say Leo and Brain in the same sentence, listen to Leo on 680 the fan and you will realize that he does not have any. Leo mentioned on 680 that he would rather win the 14 division championships to 4 World series titles. Leo was just sitting there and rocking, he had three Hall of fame Pitchers,Steve Avery, and Danny Neagle, who were very good. Come to your senses Bobby is the problem.

Shaun

September 8th, 2009
10:12 am

Tampa Bay’s steals minus their caught stealing equals 119. Four bases equals a run so 119 divided by 4 equals 30 runs. So one could reasonably estimate that the Rays have added 30 runs to their total with steals.

So if the Braves added 30 runs to their total, that would put them at 6th in the league in runs scored versus 9th. Not a huge difference, even if the Braves were the best base-stealing team in baseball (in terms of steals minus caught stealing). And could the Braves possibly be that good? Hard for me to believe the Braves would add that many wins by attempting more steals.

John Drew

September 8th, 2009
10:15 am

Bring back Russ Nixon or upChuck Tanner.

O'Brien

September 8th, 2009
10:16 am

Mark,

Would you like to see Bobby come back next year, or do you think its time for him to retire?

O'Brien

September 8th, 2009
10:16 am

Mark,

Would you like to see Bobby come back next year, or do you think its time for him to retire?

Freddie G

September 8th, 2009
10:18 am

Joe you are the Knucklehead to suggest that the Braves trade Escobar, so many teams would Jump to get Escobar. Have you been listening to the National Commentators, Managers and Coaches on other teams talk about this guy, and have you not heard Chipper Jones refer to Escobar as a five tool player and singing his praise. Escobar and McCain have to be part of the Braves future as everyday players.

retired

September 8th, 2009
10:19 am

I am totally against the fans and the media pushing out the Legends of the game.

I am more interested in to know what you think of Derek Jeter becoming the all time hit leader for the Yanks. And if Chipper Jones was wearing a Yankee uniform would he be regarded in the same way as Jeter?

Old Timer Brave Fan

September 8th, 2009
10:23 am

1 more year…….Bobby’s earned it….Then go get Joe Torre and Leo

Chipper's Lack of Leadership

September 8th, 2009
10:25 am

Agree that Cox has not made it happen this year, but Chipper is the guy who really let this team down. Not just talking about him falling apart at the plate over the last month. His defense has been terrible … looking old and slow on routine bunts, dropping foul balls, throwing wide of first on routine plays. Most troubling, he played with ZERO passion and had a bad attitude for most of the season. Instead of leading the team to the playoffs, he seemed surprised that the team lasted in the hunt as long as it did. Plenty of talent to beat out the Giants/Rockies, but Chipper and Bobby did not live up to their reputations.

Josh

September 8th, 2009
10:27 am

I feel that he has always been overrated. He plays out the lefty vs lefty too much and all this crap. His closers haven’t always been strong but neither has his skills as a manager. If he had Griffey Jr in his prime he would never have played againist a left handed pitcher. If there is no outs and runners on 1st and 2nd there is never a bunt to get them into scoring position with less than two outs. Let’s wait on the three run home run from a guy batting 225 with 9 home runs. Give me a break Cox was not good the 1st go around and Atlanta and hasn’t really been good this second go around. Get out of town while some people still think that you are at least halfway decent.

Mr. A

September 8th, 2009
10:28 am

Mark…. I agree Cox has been a great manager. But I don’t know any job, especially one that is so visible, where you can simply hang around because of your past. His age is a huge concern and last I checked we don’t get younger!
I am a season ticket holder and they make me pay full price every year and when I turn that check in I expect the very best NOW!!!!! And anything in the past just don’t cut it for me!!
Much as it pains me….. Bobby needs to retire!!

big-um

September 8th, 2009
10:30 am

cox and staff need to go a cruise for 12 months and tghen see where we are???we let grady little get away and he make a great replacement???or hire glavine as manager and smoltz as bullpen coach andre dawson hitting coach mattox as bench pitting coach and watch titles come rolling in….need to trade chipper,laroche,johnson,church,jap,lowe,NORTON,gonzo,soriono and build a team with mccann=prado=diaz-escobar-freeman-hayward-???get third baseman outfielderplenty on market once you get rid of deadwood??????????????????????

Josh

September 8th, 2009
10:30 am

Retired,

If Chipper Jones was wearing the Yankees uniform yes he would be in the same breath as Jeter. Jeter is way overrated!!!! Chipper Jones is still one of the best hitters in the game. Also, Chipper is one of th e best five hitters of our time. Just my thoughts maybe I am wrong.

59bulldawg

September 8th, 2009
10:32 am

Earl Weaver 4 WS Won 1 25%
Bobby Cox 5 WS Won 1 20%
Whitey Herzog 3 WS Won 1 33%
Billy Martin 2 WS Won 1 50%
Tony LaRussa 5 WS Won 2 40%
Joe Torre 6 WS Won 4 67%
Dick Williams 4 WS Won 2 50%
Casey Stengel 10 WS Won 7 70%

Mark I never mentioned number of WS titles as a determining factor of manager greatness but you’re right to bring it up. However even there Cox doesn’t measure up. Your correct in that Weaver, Herzog, and Martin won just as many WS titles as Cox. But look how many times Cox made it to the WS compared to the others. Only Weaver is close to Cox’s futility and I still rank him higher than Cox. Your point about Weaver is arguable though and you may not remember Stengel or Williams. And I haven’t even mentioned Sparky Anderson. But I know you’ve seen LaRussa and Torre . . . and you still rank Cox above them?

Boise Dawg

September 8th, 2009
10:35 am

Mark, add me to bunch that will just have to agree to disagree. It is such a ridiculous statement to say Bobbby Cox is the greatest manager you have ever seen. I wouldn’t rank him the greatest of his own era. You can’t just make the argument that 14 consecutive division titles automatically qualifies you as the greatest… just like you can’t say because he only won 1 World Series he isn’t the greatest.

Do you really think that Jim Leland, Joe Torre or Lou Pinella wouldn’t have won 14 consecutive division titles if they had been in the same position?

Scott

September 8th, 2009
10:39 am

As much as Chipper Jones is loved, and derservedly so, in Atlanta.
I think his time has come for him to retire.
He can’t hit the fastballs anymore, he his headed for 20 errors plus in the field and since he is hitting 3rd in the line up, we don’t get the need RBI’s to win on a consistent basis this year.
The last 2 years of his contract, he can only get worse with age.
The Braves don’t need an old player, that now is hitting in the .270’s and sitting on the bench due to injury or fatigue.

MACMARINE

September 8th, 2009
10:42 am

Why are you writing about baseball if you think Cox is best manager you ever seen? Very overrated, and you can be demanding and loyal and still have players like you. Managers should manage to win not to be liked by all of the Players, I would rather win than be liked by Norton. Cox and entire coaching staff needs to go. AJC will not dare say that in print.

Tom B.

September 8th, 2009
10:43 am

I have been beating the “Cox must go” drum for nearly five years. They do not play with passion anymore in Atlanta. They’ve had every opportunity to either take control of the division or wild race, but they’ve choked under the pressure; they have a better all around team than Florida; you should never get swept at home and outplayed by Cincinnati. The team needs to be sold to owners who will be aggressive in trades or free agency. This team will never win again until Cox and the coaching staff is gone; Chipper is moved to first base to prolong his career. They made a good start in in getting rid of “Frenchy”; now they need to continue the process.

ozzie

September 8th, 2009
10:43 am

Bobby has been awful for years not one. I am sorry but this is a soft toss attempt to say the emperor has no clothes.

Why bother writing it?

It was weak and lacked commitment to the point.

Bobby has been done for more than 5 yrs and with the talent he had in the 90s one WS is unacceptable.

The guy had one of if not the best top three ever in the game (all at one time) and still couldn’t out manage the competition in the post season.

This (article/viewpoint) is where personality, affection and devotion cloud objective thinking.

The game changed a long time ago and no one in ATL has had the brass balls to make a mgt change that is long overdue.

People are not calling for Bobby’s departure b/c of one bad year it is due to a predictable and ineffective approach to managing his team, his pen and pitchers that have squander opportunity after opportunity.

Playing favorites with rotten players,leaving ineffective people in the lineup until July!! (every year) and working his pen to death are trademark Cox moves. Not one-off happenings of 2009.

He was a great manager when he had great talent. He cannot manage strategically nor can he make lemonade out of lemons. On a team with limited payroll upside it would be an act of foolishness to keep this man around any longer.

If you can get him Holliday in LF and Adrian G at 1b, Chone Figgins or Derosa (platoon at 2B, 3B and in OF) release Norton, KJ and any other go to favorite then give him one more chance.

Short of that level of talent infusion keeping him around in 2010 will only exacerbate fan angst and reduce ticket sales.

59bulldawg

September 8th, 2009
10:44 am

LOL! While my mamma might not would have won a WS title, with the rotation that Cox had in Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz she would have easily won 85-90 games. After all mamma is a great deal older than Bobby and just learning the game. LOL! Cox was blessed with incredible talent during those 14 straight. They won despite his average managerial ability.

scott

September 8th, 2009
10:52 am

Hey Bugkiller, how many rings does the vaunted Tony LaRussa have? Answer – Two. Two! TWO!!!!!!!!!! One year he was odds on favorite to win it all and blew it in the playoffs! The playoffs!! The CRAPSHOOT playoffs!!!! How many times did those great Yankees and that wonderful Torre lose to WILD CARD teams??? Hmmmm, oh, ’bout three or four times. Once when they were leading three games to one! And by the way, the great Torre won those rings with only one team, the Yankees and their 200 million dollar payroll. And that 200 million dollar payroll also lost to wildcard teams under, you guessed it, Torre. Oh, and Torre was a bust when he mananged the Braves.
Bobby Cox should not be the manager of the Braves, he is past his prime, but to use really ridiculous purely subjective examples (He lost to the better team only three times) is, well, ridiculous. All of you people talking about Cox not being a winning manager better go back and look at your baseball history. His record is well over .500, and he’s in the top five all-time. Whether you want to admit it or not, he’s a winner and has been. He manages great over the season (or has in the past), it’s the playoffs where he has problems. Of course, you have to get to the playoffs first, which he did with consistency for quite a few years with the Braves and the Blue Jays.
And let’s talk history for a few minutes. How many WS rings does Tommy Lasorda have? Two. How about Billy Martin? Two. Dick Howser? Two. Miller Huggins? Sparky Anderson? Well, they both have three, but remember that the teams they managed (Huggins the Yankees and Anderson the Reds) stayed basically the same for years. In 1925 Huggins had Gehrig, Ruth, and Earle Combs and a combined 110 home runs in a dead ball era and still finished seven games out of first. He won two pennants and lost the series before finally getting his first ring. Anderson finished 1st and won the pennant but lost the series in ‘70. The next year he finished 5th! In ‘72 he won the pennant but lost the series. In 73 he lost in the playoffs (that darned crapshoot). Finished 2nd in 74, then won back-to-back World series. The next two years, with basically the same lineup, he finished 2nd in his division. Uh, by the way, that lineup had Bench and Foster and Morgan and Rose and Griffey, you know, those guys. After that he didn’t finish 1st again until 1984, when he won it all with the Tigers. That’s eight years, in case you were wondering.
Cox has had to work with different teams (same pitchers mind you for a number of years but many different position players) most of the time.
Again, I don’t think Cox should be the manager now. But to denigrate his accomplishments is a disservice to him, to Atlanta, and to baseball. It really shows who the knucklehead is, and it isn’t Escobar.

Outside Robber

September 8th, 2009
10:52 am

It would be really, REALLY, nice for one of the tin throats, scribes or hairdos that cover the Braves to take off the gloves and call Bobby Cox out for what he is: A failed manager for the past many years.

Freddie G

September 8th, 2009
10:55 am

While watching the Florida State vs Miami game last night it occurred to me that Bobby Bowden was doing the same thing as I was doing, and that was watching the game and nothing else to impact the result. I also thought of Cox at the time and just wished that these two men who have served their profession so well would walk away after this year.

Alan

September 8th, 2009
10:59 am

Mark, I agree with you. It’s time for Bobby to retire, and I sincerely hope he does. I doubt he’ll ever be fired, although with Frank Wren’s indelicate handling of other personnel matters (i.e., Smoltz and Glavine), nothing that happens should come as a surprise. For me, this season’s biggest disappointment is the two-headed closer situation. Neither Gonzalez nor Soriano has done the job; both have given up more than their share of game-tying and game-winning home runs. It’ll be interesting to see if the Braves attempt to re-sign either one of them this offseason.

braves70

September 8th, 2009
11:01 am

Braves fans or Florida State fans? Which will have to wait longer to be rid of their Bobby? Each man apparently wants one more shot at a championship. I think we will be waiting for eternity for that to ever happen. What is really sad is when one man lets his own vanity and pride stand in the way of the good of the team and its fans. These Bobbys are like Captain Ahab, obsessed with chasing that great white whale one more time. That is a boat that no true fan deserves to be sentenced to ride for eternity. Retirement is not that bad. We all do it at some point if we live long enough.

Wes

September 8th, 2009
11:01 am

Is Bobby the best ever? No. Is he awful? Certainly not. But, Mark Bradley, when someone asks you why Cox is the best ever and the only answer you have is that he won 14 straight DIVISION titles….you have a pretty weak argument. Not to mention that for most of that time, the NL East was a complete joke from 2nd to 5th every single year.

Bobby led a team that won the crappiest division in baseball, so that makes him great??? Please. Winning the division with the talent handed to him in ‘06, ‘07 or ‘08 would have made him great. Winning bad divisions with the best talent in the league and the best pitching staff ever, hardly even puts anyone in the conversation of best ever without some championships.

Ralph

September 8th, 2009
11:02 am

I don’t think Cox had an off year, I think he had a normal year for Bobby Cox.

envoybass

September 8th, 2009
11:03 am

A bad year?? How about a bad career!!! Although I don’t have all the stats in front of me, I know this:
1. Cox has lost 8 straight world series games.
2. The last several years the Braves made the playoffs, they were outed on their own field in a crucial 5th game.
3. He is the most thrown out manager in the history of baseball
4. He has one of the visually foulest mouths I have seen and easily visible to all children on TV. His famous JFC utterance whenever something goes wrong.
5. Is stubborn beyond belief with certain underperforming players – keeping them in the same position and batting spot game after game. (Andruw, Francoer, K. Johnson, Jordan Schaefer,……..)
6. The most recent is bringing a tires and ineffective Kris Medlin in 3 days in a row to get bombed and lose games.
7. Then the ultimate is stubbornly parading Greg Norton to the plate in so many crucial situations expecting him to change his .140 batting average
8. For any Braves fan, I don’t even have to regurgitate his futility in the 90’s with superb talent and one championship.

Cox has always been a stubborn, head-scratching to fans manager who has been historically unbelieveable ineffective in most all big games. This season has proved no different. The Braves will NOT sniff another World Series and probably not another post-season with BC. HE HAS TO GO NOW!

bugman

September 8th, 2009
11:06 am

BugKiller, couldn’t agree with you more. Cox has blown more opportunities than Linda Lovelace. He has mismanaged post season play repeatedly and should have been shown the door years ago.

Doug

September 8th, 2009
11:07 am

Save for fighting with umpires and getting thrown out of games, and save for patting players on the back in the face of their failures, Bobby Cox hasn’t had fire in his eyes for a long time.

The players have flat affects only getting excited when good things happen. There is no awareness or willingness to generate excitement to make good things happen. Talent alone doesn’t win baseball games or any sporting event. Those that know how to play the mental game give themselves a better chance. The best illustration of this is Chipper Jones. Here is a player who won the batting title last year. Suddenly, he can’t hit, he is clearly discouraged. The mental part has slipped away from him. With age, we would expect some decline in his hitting abilities, but almost .100 points?

Bobby Cox is riding his baseball knowledge and reputation. He no longer has a clue or the inclination about how to help his players play at their best levels on a regular basis. As a fan I would prefer that he regain that ability over being fired. However, he hasn’t demonstrated a willingness to step back into the mental game.

Mark, I understand that Bobby Cox wouldn’t be seeing your article as he apparently doesn’t read the sporting news. I don’t really blame him. We who don’t play are pretty good critics. Still, Bobby Cox has lost the fire.

BugKiller

September 8th, 2009
11:08 am

Mark,

Dude, come on. To compare Cox to Martin or Herzog or whomever is intellectually dishonest.

Did they have teams that went to the playoffs 14 times in a row? What’s that, they didn’t?

Also, you continue to give credit to Cox for the 14 straight titles when the proof is out there that he had less to do with those regular season records than his talented team did.

AGAIN. In the regular season, the TALENT of a team will win out and cover for a terrible manager because of the 162-game schedule.

The postseason reveals who the good, bad, and overrated managers are.

14 times the Braves entered October.

6 times they had the best team in baseball, 12 times they had the best team in the NL.

3 times they lost to a better team.

1 time they beat the better team.

10 times they lost to a WORSE team.

That’s inexcusable, Mark. Good managers make their teams BETTER. Good managers would have managed to win at LEAST 3 or 4 World Series out of those 14 chances.

The Braves won in 1995 due to luck and guile. Time and time again, Bobby Cox destroyed any chance his team had due to:

Placing too much emphasis in what happened in the regular season instead of what happened in postseason history (never starting the greatest postseason pitcher in baseball history, Smoltz, in any of those game 1’s, except for 1996).

Leaving his hot bats on the bench because they didn’t belong to his trusted “vets.”

Leaving his starting pitchers in one pitch, or one inning too long.

Making terrible decisions with his bullpen, like removing Mike Beilecki who was killing the Yankees, and bringing in Wohlers an inning early. If Cox doesn’t over-manage and bring Wohlers in when he wasn’t needed, then Wohlers doesn’t hang a pitch for Leyritz to crush.

Making inexplicable line-up choices, such as going with defensive guys when offense was needed.

His idiotic “platoons.” His years in San Diego PROVED that Ryan Klesko could more than hit left handers, and would have been a MUCH better hitter than any of the light-hitting platoon replacements for him that Cox would run out there. Cox basically took half a career away from Ryan Klesko.

I mean, the list goes on and on.

What I said before, about how good managers make their teams better?

Explain to me where Cox has done that the last four years when he hasn’t had as talented a team as he used to have.

The last four years are conclusive PROOF that Cox had NOTHING to do with those 14 ridiculous flags in left field (you should ONLY have flags for WS wins or possibly NL crowns).

Sorry, Mark. Logic says that Cox is the most overrated manager in baseball history.

Jeff

September 8th, 2009
11:19 am

Cox has stunk since he got here. He is a clueless old man. We need a young vibrant manager who will play the young kids and get rid of the old tired guys like Anderson.

Greg Norton

September 8th, 2009
11:23 am

Hey, Mark, that huntin’ invitation is off the table, you traitor!

Ralph

September 8th, 2009
11:24 am

I can’t agree with anyone who advocates moving Cox upstairs, just imagine someone as stupid as he is pulling strings from up above.

jfreak13713

September 8th, 2009
11:25 am

There weren’t many reasonable people out there at the start of the season that belived this team had a chance at a World Series, but most thought they could contend and be player in the playoff hunt. The Braves as an entire organization wasted a fantastic year of pitching. Cox has always made crazy decisions but this year his players didn’t come through when he made some “stupid” moves. I don’t blame Bobby totally for this years fall from contention but you can’t fire the team which leaves Bobby the odd man out. It’s time for Wren to make what would be a very hard decision to promote Cox to the front office and allow a manager from outside the organization to bring in some fresh ideas. Just time for change!

jc

September 8th, 2009
11:27 am

I COULDN’T AGREE MORE WITH WHAT BUG-KILLER SAID REGARDING BOBBY COX AND HIS SHORTCOMINGS AS THE BRAVES’ MANAGER ALL THESE YEARS..SERIOUSLY, WHO COULDN’T HAVE GUIDED THE BRAVES TO 14 STRAIGHT DIVISION TITLES WITH ALL THOSE FUTURE ALL OF FAME PITCHERS AND A TALENTED BATTING LINE-UP?? I’M REALLY NOT IMPRESSED WITH THAT NOR THE 13 TIMES COX’S TEAMS “CHOKED” IN THE POST SEASON!! AND I LOVE WHAT “BUG-KILLER” HAD TO SAY REGARDING HOW JOE TORRE WOULD HAVE MANAGED THE BRAVES’ TEAMS ALL THESE YEARS..THEY WOULD HAVE WON AT LEAST 5 WORLD SERIES, IF NOT MORE, HAD TORRE BEEN THEIR MANAGER..LOOK HOW TORRE MANAGED ANDRUW JONES LAST SEASON IN LOS ANGELES!! BENCHED HIS “WASHED-UP BUTT”-LIKE BOBBY SHOULD HAVE DONE THE YEAR BEFORE..COX HAS WAY TOO MUCH FAITH WITH HIS PLAYERS AND HIS DISALLUSIONED WITH THEM-THINKING THEY ARE BETTER THAN THEY ARE..THIS YEAR’S TEAM DOES HAVE TALENT, THEY JUST HAVE NO LEADERSHIP AND NO CONFIDENCE IN THEMSELVES-AND THAT ALL STARTS AT THE TOP WITH BOBBY COX..CHIPPER JONES IS SUPPOSED TO BE THEIR LEADER BUT HE’S TOO WORRRIED ABOUT WHEN HE’LL BE ABLE TO MISS ANOTHER START TO CARE..HE’S WASHED-UP TOO!! BRAVES WILL CONTINUE TO STRUGGLE AS LONG AS COX CONTINUES TO BE THEIR MANAGER..LOOK AT WHAT COLORADO DID THIS YEAR-MID-SEASON!! FIRED CLINT HURDLE AND BROUGHT IN JIM TRACY..LOOK WHAT’S HAPPENED!! ROCKIES ARE HEADING FOR THE PLAYOFFS..BRAVES ARE HEADING FOR YET ANOTHER LONG WINTER AT HOME..LOOK WHAT JOE TORRE HAS DONE WITH THE DODGERS-WHO REALLY DON’T HAVE MUCH MORE TALENT THAN THE BRAVES RIGHT NOW-A VERY YOUNG TEAM-BUT THEY HAVE THE BEST MANAGER IN BASEBALL WHO IS STEERING THEM IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION!!

tmac

September 8th, 2009
11:28 am

Where to begin on Bobby Cox…
I am not one who has bashed BC at every turn. I am also not a blind loyalist to BC and think he has no flaws.
Bobby Cox has been a very good (not great) regular season manager over the years. Well below average post season manager though.

And the last 4 years the Braves have needed a very good post season or in this case “do or die” manager (same thing) to help them get to the post season. Bobby Cox is not that manager… and even more so this year.

BC took his “loyalty” to his player to a whole new level this year. He stayed with Jeff Francouer way to long and Greg Norton in crutial situations over and over I will never understand. Both situations hurt this team and both were decisions directly from the manager.

I do agree that this lineup does not have power and when that is the case the team must be creative and opportunistic to score runs. Both are not high on BC’s list of attributes.

I know that Bobby Cox has earned the right to step down when he wants to. And lord knows the media is not going to hold Bobby’s feet to the fire on that either. But, Bobby is never held accountable for anything he does or decisions he makes… so why would he feel obligated to “do the right thing” and step down. Players love playing for Bobby Cox because it is a Country Club atmosphere in the clubhouse. When there is no urgency from the manager to the players to perform, there is no urgency from the players to the field to perform either.

That is where this team is, unfortunately.

Today’s players are in the game for the money and most are not driven by winning championships. BC works well for the older players that are self motivated players driven to be the best and win championships. If the Braves are going to contend and win championships again, they need to have a manager who can create a winning atmosphere and continually give his team the best chance to win on a nightly basis.

Sorry, but that is not Bobby Cox.